eBay - litigation and confusion part 3

[cybertrax]

Sorry guys for making a new thread - I would have posted this onto the other threads both both parts one and two have been closed down.

Below is comments by Mercinary;
I agree that eBay shouldn't have given you the OK on your posting when it was clearly against at least one section of the AUP. I think that is a product of a large corporation giving you the shrug-off. I think anyone that has tried to deal with eBay has run into similar problems (including myself). eBay is all form-emails and political BS.

However, I don't think you have much of a case against them with this new information that Jokach has brought to light. If your listings were against their AUP, I don't think it matters what reason they gave you for shutting your auctions down....they will always be able to fall back on the fact that the listing was against the AUP and should have been removed regardless.

Now as most people are aware, Merc and myself have had some heated debates in the past, and will probably still do in the future. This posting was a pleasant surprise for me, as I felt that for once I wasnt being attacked!

Just to let you all know that I came home today to find an email from eBay (I hope that this is allowed to stay on the forum):
Hello David,

I write wishing to update you further to your recent email to me
regarding 2 main points.

1. The Multilevel Marketing Policy is not currently on our site
2. Your outlining of your Matrix System

Firstly, David I do understand the frustration of your having your
listings removed and your account subsequently suspended. In order for
you to have your account reinstated I can send you via email a
reinstatement declaration so that you may have your account considered
for reinstatement. However I need to advise you that your previous
listings of a Matrix system will not be permitted.

As Previously advised to you; in accordance with the eBay user agreement
you have signed up to on your registration, eBay can remove any listing
that it deems inappropriate. This includes any listing regardless of
whether there is a direct policy on site in respect of that listing.
This is due to the fact that eBay will need to add and amend policies
from time to time in accordance with the listings that come to light.

For clarify for our members we will shortly have a policy added to our
site in relation to:

Multi-level Marketing
Pyramid Schemes
Matrix Schemes

This policy will outline that eBay does not permit the listing of
multi-level marketing schemes, pyramid, matrix and all similar trading
schemes, including online payment randomisers. Such schemes can be
highly problematic and are regulated in the UK by the Fair Trading Act
1973, as amended by the Trading Schemes Act 1996 and the Trading Schemes Regulations 1997. It is a criminal offence to persuade someone to pay into a scheme by promising benefits if they recruit further people.

David I hope that this information is of help to you and that it
clarifies matters.

Please let me know if there is anything further I can do.

Best wishes,

Rita Lynch
eBay Trust and Safety Supervisor

I think that this is very interesting for all eBay UK members, especially those similar to me who have placed matrix-style advertising on the eBay UK site in the past and present. Whilst this may seem egotistical of me, I do think that I have highlighted a loophole in the eBay UK site policies that they are now going to close. It is good to know that they are willing to let common sense rule (regarding my eBay account) and even better news that they are going to close the loophole and protect users. It seems like common sense to me to have similar policies for eBay sites around the world.

[concerned]

I think that this is very interesting for all eBay UK members, especially those similar to me who have placed matrix-style advertising on the eBay UK site in the past and present. Whilst this may seem egotistical of me, I do think that I have highlighted a loophole in the eBay UK site policies that they are now going to close. It is good to know that they are willing to let common sense rule (regarding my eBay account) and even better news that they are going to close the loophole and protect users. It seems like common sense to me to have similar policies for eBay sites around the world.


I think it is strange of you to speak this way, especially explaining how these policies are to protect the users. You were trying to use the loophole to exploit a scam that you thought you were rightfully allowed to do, since the policy was not in writing at that moment in time. That is why ebay is allowed to remove your ads without a specific policy, because it protects the consumers. I am also interested to hear what your opinions are about this part of the email that was sent to you.

This policy will outline that eBay does not permit the listing of
multi-level marketing schemes, pyramid, matrix and all similar trading
schemes, including online payment randomisers. Such schemes can be
highly problematic and are regulated in the UK by the Fair Trading Act
1973, as amended by the Trading Schemes Act 1996 and the Trading Schemes Regulations 1997. It is a criminal offence to persuade someone to pay into a scheme by promising benefits if they recruit further people.

Your stance is that matrix sites are legal, because the law does not say the word matrix in it. What do you have to say about ebay refering you to very specific regulations against these schemes? Are you going to research them, or are you going to just tell us that ebay doesn't know what they are talking about in reguards to those regulations. I surely hope you answer honestly and straight foward with this question, especially when it doesn't help your arguments. I would like to know what your take is on those regulations.

[cybertrax]

Oh dear, Concerned.....

Like most people, I like to think that people are guarded against the unfairness that is present in today's society. I personally took the time to check all the eBay rules, terms & conditions BEFORE listing my adverts. I also took the time to check with eBay themselves, as you well know. If the specific policy about matrix-style advertising had been in place on the UK website I would not have placed my advertisments, as I value both my eBay account and also general rules. I would also have not advertised if eBay staff had let me know before-hand of the rules. The eBay staff in question stated that my advertising was OK, and so I foolishly believed them.

I believe that it is silly of eBay to have different terms and conditions for each of its sites, and then and try to force a seller to conform with a different countries policies, without prior notice. As agreed by other members, this is unfair to everyone. I do not believe that eBay did this intentionally; it is my opinion that eBay UK made a mistake, and 'forgot' to add this policy. In hindsight I may have noticed this, but it is not something you think about, until you run into problems - by when it is too late.

As eBay have stated clearly their policies, I will not be placing any more matrix-style advertising on eBay once my account is re-activated. The very fact that they are going to re-activate the account makes me feel that they are aware of their mistake, and are trying to reach a satisfactory conclusion that does not leave them open to any accusations of breach of contract in the future. Personally, as long as my eBay account is re-activated I am willing to let this go - it would cost too much to take it any further!

Regarding your comments about Trading Standards, it is very important to read the terms VERY CAREFULLY; It is a criminal offence to persuade someone to pay into a scheme by promising benefits if they recruit further people. This is interesting, as some matrix sites do offer this form of referral system. I am not sure if the matrix site form of referrals would fall into this type, as it is not mandatory. However, you fail to notice that other matrix sites do not offer any form of referral at all - therefore they would not count under this regulation.

I find it interesting to note that eBid (an alternative 'auction venue') is happy to accept matrix-style advertising. I emailed in advance, they spent two weeks consulting with their legal team, and have given the thumbs up.

[concerned]

Are you skirting around the question again? If you have read those acts, then what do you think about them, and how do they relate to the similarities of matrix sites. I didn't ask you about the specific comment that ebay made to you. I asked about the entire set of regulations. I'm sure you are extremely busy to answer, because you just frankly don't want to. I'll tell you what, if you can answer a question very straight forward, and without trying to avoid the whole question, then maybe I will give you a cookie and some milk. I guess it has come down to bribery with you to just answer the questions. Please read the regulations, and point to us where it specifically spells out that matrix sites are NOT illegal. If you cannot do that, then I will have to point to specific sources where it tells us that they ARE illegal. I am giving you the head start.

[cybertrax]

Concerned;

eBay UK made those comments in relation to regulations in England. The regulations in question come from the Trading Standards Agency, an organisation that makes sure that all trading is fair and just. It is obvious to me, and must be to you, that they will not state that matrix sites are legal. They will also not state that building companies are legal, or record shops are legal etc....There are too many types of business to list them all. It is taken for granted that if the particular business or trade abides by the rules and regulations, then they are abiding by the law, and are classed thus as legal.

Please remember that the Trading Standards Agency is an English government body, and only applies to English industry. If you have proof of English rules and regulations proving that matrix sites are illegal, I welcome you to show it to us all.

By the way, can I have some cookies and milk now?! :)

[concerned]

Concerned;

eBay UK made those comments in relation to regulations in England. The regulations in question come from the Trading Standards Agency, an organisation that makes sure that all trading is fair and just. It is obvious to me, and must be to you, that they will not state that matrix sites are legal.

Look at the part in bold. If you admit this, then why is your number 1 argument about matrix sites that the laws don't say "matrix sites are illegal" when you admit that it will never happen. If that is the case, then why even argue your completely baseless points?

[redmist]

this makes great reading. mainly because cybertrax is completely correct, and none of you have the balls to admit it - as shown by the fact that you have closed 2 previous threads on this topic.
ebay will not state that matrix sites are legal, but neither will they state that they are illegal. this is for the simple reason that ebay are not the UK government and as such they have no right to say what is/isn't illegal. in the same way, YOU have no right to say that matrix sites are illegal.
ebay should not be allowed to stop what cybertrax was doing. i used to do that, and i had absolutely no problems with it. indeed i even emailed ebay first to enquire and they gave me the go ahead. but then again, that was before matrix sites had all the bad publicity that they have had/are having now. ebay won't allow it so that they do not have bad publicity from programs such as "Watchdog" (Program on the BBC about fraudulent businesses - they ran a program on matrix sites a couple months back).

i know that i have gone round in circles and probably havent helped in anyway whatsoever, but i just needed to get it out of my system.

[jokach]

Please take note that those threads were closed for forum policy violations.

We certainly have the right to our opinions on our website. We don't pretend to be lawyers, judges or anything of the sort and make that very clear to all users. I think that eBay has the same right to make their own opinion on their own website, here is their policy that specifically states their definition of matrixes:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/mlm.html
or
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/mlm.html


Matrix Programs
eBay prohibits listings of business models that involve the exchange of money primarily for being added to a waiting list for a product, if the person at the top of the list receives a product only once a set number of people have joined below him or her.

Listings or advertisements for such programs will be ended. Repeat violations may result in the suspension of a user's account.


Remember that eBay is big business, and they act like it. Just because cybertrax asked ahead about a listing, eBay has the right to change their mind, because its their site. I don't agree with half the stuff that eBay does, but nobody ever usually wins with them. :cool:

[MatrixWatch]

this makes great reading. mainly because cybertrax is completely correct, and none of you have the balls to admit it - as shown by the fact that you have closed 2 previous threads on this topic.

Jokach has given a solid explanation for why Cybertrax's other threads were closed. Everyone has the freedom express their opinions here since these are "free speech" boards.

However, "free speech" does not mean "uncensored". Free speech to me means that I can express any thought about any subject - as long as I do it in a reasonable way, using the kind of language that is acceptable for the majority of my audience (and preferably for my entire audience), and without deliberately hurting or insulting someone. "Free speech" also comes with a responsibility: if despite my efforts I do make a mistake and hurt or insult someone, it's my responsibility to correct the situation I created. Admit I'm wrong, clarify things, apologise, whatever happens to be appropriate.

So, having said this I hope you understand why I placed a portion of your last post in the quote box above, and why I am right now going to issue you a warning about your comment. Try to be just a bit more kind and respectful here. We will be sure to do the same towards you.

As a side note, I must confess that I am very surprised that you would side with Cybertrax.