moneymakergroup.com

[ycchen]

If you wonder where all the "investors" (or "addicts") go after the fall of matrix-sites.net and top-marix.com? You can find them here: www.moneymakergroup.com

I guess you can find all the latest pyramid/ponzi schemes in this forum. It's pretty interesting how greed can drive so money people into all this "get-rich-fast" pyramid scam.

There are many lies flying around in the forum just to drag you to invest, just like those glory days of matrix-sites, where fake testimonials are flooding the market.

One big difference is that most of the addicts invest big! Some doubler set the minimum investment/donation to $100! I saw many investing $100 daily, $500 per week or even $2000!!

Doubler is basically the same as "cycle of 2 in matrix language". It has "improved" in couple of ways.

1) Avoid matrix language: use doubler or tripler instead of "cycle of 2 or 3".

2) "suggest" a date of "doubling" (same as "cycled" in matrix language), which none of the copy-cat matrix dare to commit. Unfortunately, it is just a smoke screen. These doubler owners learn the lesson from straight-like matrix, especially the second generation matrix like realdealmatrix, that many will cycle very fast in the beginning and then die out. So, they dare to set the cycletime of 2 days or 7 days becuase they know they can fulfill their promise at least in the first few weeks. And then, blame it on their addicts if things slow down because the addicts fail to grab newbies.

3) Some still hold on to idea of "product", but most just make it clear that it is a pure "pyramid/ponzi scheme" with no product involve. Just pure money game.

4) They use "pool of money" instead of "waiting list" to eliminate the trace of "straight line" which smells too much like "straight-line matrix".

5) Black box. The best of all, the don't even tell you who is in the black box, so you never know how much money was taken in. This is consider an 'improvement' because owner can have more control in manupulating the list.

One thing for sure, matrix is the thing in the past, but the spirit of matrix remains, that is ONLINE PYRAMID SCHEME can be redesign again and again!

Unfortunately, for each cycle of new 'reinvention', the life span DECREASE, because the greed increase!

Doubler will have a super short life and many addicts are now eager to look for new "opportunity (or new drugs)".

[Dreamer]

The really funny thing about that forum is reading the threads of everybody getting so excited about the newest prelaunch. 30more mins! I'm excited ::cheek:: and stuff like that. Than hours later...what happened to that site anyways?

I was thinking of starting up a thread here regarding that forum and the people there. Now, I'm not accussing anybody of anything, since I probably have my facts wrong, but wasn't big sis pushing so much mymagicdoubler and that other doubler site? Wasn't she all excited about the easychairclub? Now, whats going on with those sites?

The thread I'm thinking of starting up, if anybody wants to help post to it, would be the original post dates of people so excited about some new program, than the same person bad mouthing it a few months/weeks/days later. I think this type of thread will show exactly how short lived these scams are and how much the player will lie to people so they can make more money.

[ycchen]

To know where our gotmatrix big sis is heading, click on the following link :D I think she just want to show off how smart she is by "scamming the scam" one by one!

In the future, if any attorney take up a class lawsuit against doubler, they should also include big time speculator/addicts like big sis into the class lawsuit :)

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=9a81aac9d0be696194900c24701939e6&search_in=posts&result_type=posts

[ycchen]

The thread I'm thinking of starting up, if anybody wants to help post to it, would be the original post dates of people so excited about some new program, than the same person bad mouthing it a few months/weeks/days later. I think this type of thread will show exactly how short lived these scams are and how much the player will lie to people so they can make more money. I think this should be fun!

[jokach]

The interesting thing about that forum is that if you notice, its the same people investing over and over again in these doubler/tripler schemes. Somewhere within all of that, there must be somebody that is losing money, because there is no way that these people are investing hundreds of dollars over and over again and having the owners paying it out of their own pocket.

The overall principle is the same, and it shows the classic way that the pyramid works, somebody will lose money, and it looks like you could lose BIG on those doublers.

It does seem that the classic matrix model has started to fall apart with the demise of sites of matrix-sites.net and top-matrix.com, etc. Even the matrix sites that are out there are showing their age and not cycling nor being updated anymore. I would like to think that matrixwatch has played a big part in the demise, along with the fact that without forums like moneymakergroup.com, which really doesn't advertise the 'classic' matrix scam), there isn't anywhere to advertise anymore. Advertising and getting people referred to the site is the backbone of the pyramid/matrix scheme, and when that fails, the scheme fails.

Dreamer-
If you care to start that thread, I will attempt to try and help keep it updated, like ycchen said, it should be fun!

jokach

[Dreamer]

I think I'm going to start it, but the main postings I remembered were from matrix-sites and I've been trying to hunt down the cached versions of the pages, but no luck.

[ASFx2600]

Nice to see you guys finally found MMG :P

I am the webmaster of MoneyMakerGroup.com, and if any of you would like to have a civilized conversation, im all ears.

I just wanted to comment on a few of your comments.

The really funny thing about that forum is reading the threads of everybody getting so excited about the newest prelaunch. 30more mins! I'm excited ::cheek:: and stuff like that. Than hours later...what happened to that site anyways?

Yea, that's the way it goes sometimes, but the majority of the people that get involved are aware of these risks. The basic mentality with these is "you win some and you lose some".

The thread I'm thinking of starting up, if anybody wants to help post to it, would be the original post dates of people so excited about some new program, than the same person bad mouthing it a few months/weeks/days later. I think this type of thread will show exactly how short lived these scams are and how much the player will lie to people so they can make more money

You can feel free to do this, but this would just be stating what is already known. I am not afraid to admit that I was a supporter of a couple programs that went bad such as ECC, but they gave me good cause. I made quite a bit of money there before they started spitting out the "24-48 hour" lies. This is just the way things happen. A good program will be supported while it's good, then people won't like it anymore when it's not so good. I'd say that's a pretty normal occurrence.

I guess you can find all the latest pyramid/ponzi schemes in this forum. It's pretty interesting how greed can drive so money people into all this "get-rich-fast" pyramid scam.

Remember that money doublers and matrix sites are not all you can find at MMG. We also discuss all the other types of investments that are out there. We do not "force" people to love matrix sites or doubler sites, and everyone is free to speak their opinion. Of course someone that brings constant harassment and negativity to the forum is another story.


Anyway, thanks for listening,
Jason (ASFx)
Admin, www.MoneyMakerGroup.com

[concerned]

Nice to see you guys finally found MMG :P


I found it a long time ago. It is quite an entertaining site. Your goal seems to be to get people excited about several programs, then you exploit them to make you a profit, while the rest of the group gets scammed. I noticed that once the thread becomes questionable and the signs show that the site is coming to an end, you stop posting in those threads. You just let everyone get mad, while you pump up the next system. Then the cycle starts all over again. You pump them up, and the system deflates their pocket books, while you get rich from them. You really have a great system there.

You can feel free to do this, but this would just be stating what is already known. I am not afraid to admit that I was a supporter of a couple programs that went bad such as ECC, but they gave me good cause.

A couple? If I remember correctly, every single program that you supported has kicked the bucket. While you profit off everyone else, you have no remorse that the way you got your profit was to get everyone else in your money maker group to lose money. You are sucking those people dry by constantly refering them to systems where you are the only person to make a profit. I doubt that you have ever even made a profit, but that's a different argument for a different day. I remember when I told you on the Matrix-Sites forum about your friend Vikas, and the fact that the 90 day money back guarantee would be the killer of the site. You told me that I was completely wrong, and that it was a great way to ensure everyone would make a profit. Gee I wonder how that worked out?
Again, way to go!!!

[Dreamer]

I found your wonderful site when you had less than a dozen members. But I seen its grown since.

Its an interesting site with interesting reads. But is there a single thread in your site devoted to legal ways to make money online? Now, I'm not going to get in a legality argument over doublers and matrix sites. Thats not my intention. But I mean true and tested methods thats been around for many years.

I'd go to your site to post where big sis explained what pips is (I think thats what it was). 2% interest a day. Put in $430 and after 5 years they'll pay you $9,000 a mont h for life or something equally silly? And these sites have already been open for 5 years and already paying people, huh? 60 days before you can withdraw money.

Boy, it is all about the money for you, isn't it?

[ASFx2600]

I found it a long time ago. It is quite an entertaining site. Your goal seems to be to get people excited about several programs, then you exploit them to make you a profit, while the rest of the group gets scammed. I noticed that once the thread becomes questionable and the signs show that the site is coming to an end, you stop posting in those threads. You just let everyone get mad, while you pump up the next system. Then the cycle starts all over again. You pump them up, and the system deflates their pocket books, while you get rich from them. You really have a great system there.

What gave you that idea? I very rarely even post new programs. If you read my rules, you'd know that once someone posts a new program, nobody else is allowed to create a new thread about that same program for several reasons. One reason is to allow the person who posted it to get credit, and another reason is to keep the forum organized. I never "pump up" programs artificially. I simply state my opinion, and that's that.

A couple? If I remember correctly, every single program that you supported has kicked the bucket

All programs "kick the bucket" except for a few long term programs, and even the long term ones die eventually. Also, I never endorse any programs or tell people that they have to join them. I simply comment on them just as other people do, stating my opinion

I doubt that you have ever even made a profit

*chuckle*

I remember when I told you on the Matrix-Sites forum about your friend Vikas, and the fact that the 90 day money back guarantee would be the killer of the site. You told me that I was completely wrong, and that it was a great way to ensure everyone would make a profit. Gee I wonder how that worked out?

You were right about that. 90 day guarantees are silly and only give people false hopes and cause everyone including the admin a lot of problems. On a side note, Vikas has paid off everyone (or almost everyone) that never made a profit at cashocycling. Im not sure if he's done with that yet though, I haven't talked with him about that in a while.

Again, way to go!!!

Speaking to me that way isn't necessary. I'd appreciate it if we could have a conversation like adults if you dont mind.

[ycchen]

Hi, ASFx2600, good to see you here. :) Yes, I have to admit that your site is very popular and people are generally very excited about all the DAILY launchhing of various form of pyramid schemes.

The beauty of all these pyramid scheme is that they get people excited because of the high return in the short time. Eventually, some newbies also invest a long time after the launch because they are also get excited but did not aware of the nature this unfair pyramid scheme. They become the essential donor of the scheme.

I am not interested in asking big time speculator like yourself or your buddies to quit exploiting the pyramid game to your own benefits. I just hope the anti-pyramid law enforcement is fast enough to coup up with the speed of new invention every day :)

What I like to discuss with you is about "honesty". If owner or forum admin like yourself can be very honest about all these schemes by admitting that they are revised or innovative pyramid scheme, then it will save us (anti-pyramid) and newbies a lot of time and energy.

Why honesty is gold? Because I belive that it is the DIShonesty that is crucial to the survival of all these different form of pyramid scheme. Newbies are ESSENTIAL in donating their money at the end of the line, so that big time speculators and owners can double or triple your investment. Without misinformed newbies, these scheme will not not do so well.

Asymmetric information (equal to dishonesty) that put newbies not in the same level of playing field with speculators/owners. It is not a fair game because speculators/owners knows that it is a pyramid scheme, while newbies thought they are NOT pyramid scheme. Those who have the CLEAR understanding (good information) of the pyramid nature of the scheme grab the prices, while misinformed newbies (bad information) become donors.

Why "misinformed"? Because neither your forum nor owners are honest about the FUNDAMENTAL NATURE of their scheme! The reason for hidding this fact is to grab money from newbies who join the scheme 10 days after the lanuch! See my point?

Yes, no body twist their arm of joining after 10 days, but no body inform them (the obligation of any owners or the forum admin) that they are entering the pyramid scheme at their own risk.

Here is my bottomline which I belive is shared by most anti-pyramid advocates. If owners and forum admin could HONESTLY state that this is an innovative pyramid scheme and you enter at your own risk (or ask them to come to matrixwatch for advice before they invest, to get second opinion), only then, these schemes can be considered a fair game.

Believe me, I have NO interest in fully INFORMED players who simply likes to gamble to get to the top in any pyramid scheme. Some win some lost, as you said, and I am perfectly fine with that :)

Fair enough? :)

[Dreamer]

I personally have enjoyed MMGs site. I think its great for all the get-rich-quick scams out there. But, if ASFx is reading this here is what I dont' like about your site.

You are being used by scam sites. People know they can buy a $200 script, start up a site, promote it on your boards than scam people out of alot of money that way. Does that really help your cause by all these startups?

That was one strength of MA is that they pretended to try to verify sites. If there is a way you can set up a system on your site to weed out the scam sites by not giving your "blessing" to them until you have communicated with the owner and it sounds legit it would help out your cause alot more. I still won't agree with your cause, but well...Just a thought.

[MatrixWatch]

I guess that is like being the person who points others who want to do drugs in the direction of the drug dealers. Technically, he isn't running the business, but he isn't exactly being part of the solution.

Everyone knows that pyramid scams are a waste of money, and questionably legal. Worst yet, these scam owners have not checks and balances, and it could very well be the case that they are posting false testimonials and sticking the money right in their own pockets.

A very bad situation to be involved with.

[ASFx2600]

ycchen - I also believe newbies need to be careful about what programs they join, and they should be more informed. That's also why I was considering making a FAQ section about the dangers of joining various types of programs. The last thing I want is for people to lose their money due to ignorance.

You are being used by scam sites. People know they can buy a $200 script, start up a site, promote it on your boards than scam people out of alot of money that way. Does that really help your cause by all these startups?

It's true that people buy the script and try to do quick hit and runs, but they are usually so blatantly obvious that nobody joins them anymore. If you look at them, oull notice that they hardly ever have over 20 members, and most of those people that get in that early are very aware of the risks with those pop up doublers. I personally don't join those doublers which I feel tok the admin 5 minutes to setup, and I alwyas suggest to others that they shouldnt just join every single site they see.

Just out of curiosity, who is this "big sister" that people are referring to?

[Dreamer]

christty.

There have been a few threads I found on your site that seemed obvious from the first page (that I followed it to the end) that its a scam site, it it didn't stop the thread from gettin 30+ pages and alot of people crying scam afterwards.

[concerned]

On a side note, Vikas has paid off everyone (or almost everyone) that never made a profit at cashocycling. Im not sure if he's done with that yet though, I haven't talked with him about that in a while.


You sound like John Kerry when you say this. You say that Vikas HAS paid everyone off, and then the next sentence says you aren't sure if he has actually paid everyone off. Which one is it?

[concerned]

The last thing I want is for people to lose their money due to ignorance.

Isn't that they only way you can make a profit? In these systems, the only way that YOU can make a profit, is if many more people lose their money due to that same ignorance.

You are telling us all a lie when you say this, because if nobody loses their money due to ignorance, then how would you ever make a profit for yourself?

[ASFx2600]

You sure are a mad little man arent you. Can't you make a post without attacking me? I came here for some conversation, not to be attacked by you. Let's all be adults here.

In these systems, the only way that YOU can make a profit, is if many more people lose their money due to that same ignorance.

That's not true at all. A lot of people who are fully aware of the consequences join these programs. Some win, some lose. That's the nature of the game.

Just check out what ycchen said above:

Believe me, I have NO interest in fully INFORMED players who simply likes to gamble to get to the top in any pyramid scheme. Some win some lost, as you said, and I am perfectly fine with that

That's exactly the same way I feel. People going into these things without learning about them first isn't a good thing, and that's one of the reasons why MMG exists in the first place so people can ask questions and help eachother.

[MatrixWatch]

I agree with your approach somewhat. It is definately a better thing to find out about these things first. The problem I have is that even seemingly "legitimate" programs are run by people who use it as an opportunity to stick the money right into their pockets.

Have you seen this happen? If so, how do you guys protect your members from these kinds of scammers?

Also, what protections do you offer your members who may want to sign up for a site that may not be fully legal? Do you have a legal team who investigates these new schemes?

[ASFx2600]

The problem I have is that even seemingly "legitimate" programs are run by people who use it as an opportunity to stick the money right into their pockets.

Have you seen this happen? If so, how do you guys protect your members from these kinds of scammers? If so, how do you guys protect your members from these kinds of scammers?

This has happened a few times, but normally the ones that aren't good to join that are pretty obvious from the beginning. The admins are rude and ignore emails, the site looks like junk, etc. It's not a very common occurance overall. Members can protect themselves by researching the program first, talking to other members, and talking to the admin.

Also, what protections do you offer your members who may want to sign up for a site that may not be fully legal? Do you have a legal team who investigates these new schemes?

If I notice members that are joining a program that i'd never join, I always let them know my opinions on it and give them a fair warning. I decided not to have any sort of "investigating team" or "approval team" because then that would mean i'd be officially endorsing certain programs, and that's not a responsibility i'm willing to take on. I choose to not be affiliated with any programs. This is also why I dont accept any of the partership deals that are presented to me all the time. I just want MMG to be a neutral zone where people can discuss the good or bad side about everything. One thing I thought about doing would be to have a checklist tht sites must pass in order to get into some sort of "passed checklist" section.

[MatrixWatch]

It is good to see that you have some safeguards, but speaking from experience I'll tell you that your safeguards are not very good.

First, you said:


...but normally the ones that aren't good to join that are pretty obvious from the beginning. The admins are rude and ignore emails, the site looks like junk, etc. It's not a very common occurance overall. Members can protect themselves by researching the program first, talking to other members, and talking to the admin

In some cases this is a good method. If the site looks bad and the owner is a jerk, then it is safe to say that nothing will change.

However, what would you say about sites like GotMatrix or MatrixParadise? The sites look good, the owners seem friedly and outgoing, yet one year later and things go south.. In fact, the owner of MatrixParadise came here the other day and admitted to posting false testimonials on his site at one time.

The fact is that internet scammers want to appear as legitimate as possible, and then they will funnel the money into their pockets and disappear. I don't see how your system is set up to protect people from this.

And your suggestion that members can, "...protect themselves by researching the program first, talking to other members, and talking to the admin" does not work either. I've already pointed out that the admin can be super friendly, and the site coudl treat its initial customers well in order to bring in greater profits for themself later on. This happens all the time.

There is also the problem of the owner of the scam, or friends of the owner, posing as customers who are very pleased with the site.

Your second safeguard is similar to this:

If I notice members that are joining a program that i'd never join, I always let them know my opinions on it and give them a fair warning.

This is good, but do you have a required amount of knowledge to accurately judge rightly?

You have already admitted to using a litmus test of a good-looking site and a friendly owner, but I've already shown how that approach is faulty. Wouldn't you admit that what might seem like a good investment one day quickly turns into a very bad idea the next? In those cases, aren't you responsible for encouraging people to get involved when they really shouldn't have?

An overarching problem that I predict you will have is the money issue. MMG takes a lot of time and energy, and at one point you WILL start joining up with other sites. When that happens you will have a severe conflict of interest. While it is admirable that you strive to be neutral at this point, it is inevitable that you will either team up with other get-rich-quick schemes, or you will start a site of your own and endorse it.

This has happened in the past, and it will likely happen with your site in the near future. Mark my words.

I'd also like to know about your response to my "legal guidance" question.

Thanks for your time.

[ycchen]

That's exactly the same way I feel. People going into these things without learning about them first isn't a good thing, and that's one of the reasons why MMG exists in the first place so people can ask questions and help eachother.

How can people know what those scheme are IF the owners and the speculators like yourself lie about it? Why don't you just be 100% honest and make a statement in your front page stating that these schemes (matrix or doubler) are ALL PYRAMID/PONZI SCHEME. There are about a lot of people throw their money into some owner's pocket, and a lucky few early birds get sellected and pay, the rest go home or wait forever. It is netiher legitimate nor legal business, they are just pyramid/ponzi scheme. Period.

I am 100% sure you know what I am talking about, so don't tell me that you think they are NOT pyramid/ponzi scheme. It will save us a lot of unnecessary arguement.

If you declare THE truth and some people still want to throw few thousand dollars into the pool and hope that they will be paid double or tripple, that's fine with ME, because my bottomline is to protect the newbies from LIES.

Let me put it this way. As long as you don't declare that you are promoting ponzi/pyramid scheme on your forum, you are lying. There is just absolutely no way to go around it. If you are lying, then your cannot justify that "EVERY PLAYER" know the risk involve.

ADD: By the way, not declaring the truth is the same as lying. And this is done intentionally. It is the owner/forum conscious intention to not fully disclose the truth of the scheme, so the scheme can survive. Why? Because pyramid scheme needs misinformed DONORS (or newbies). That is clear and simple.

If you think the pyramid schemes (doubler or matrix) can survive with ONLY FULLY INFORMED speculator (you won't know if they are fully informed if you don't declare it), try to declare the truth, and see if you can get 20 customers to invest. :)

[concerned]

I didn't attack you. Maybe I should reword the statement a little. The statement though is absolutely 100% correct.

Isn't that the only way A PERSON can make a profit? In these systems, the only way that A PERSON can make a profit, is if many more people lose their money due to that same ignorance.

Another words, THE ONLY WAY someone can make a profit from a cycle, is if many others LOSE THEIR MONEY further down the line.

To ANYBODY that takes advantage of that situation, I believe is just as bad as the owner, because THAT PERSON is essentially ripping off the unsuspected person that enters later. Then, when lies are created by the owners, and the people that entered the lines first via fraudulent ebay ads, lies posted by members at the MMG site(the lies can be deliberately told by the member, or the member could have been lied to and they just passed on the lie. Either way the lie was told on MMG) or lies told on the Matrix-sites forum (when it was open) it causes people to falsely trust the program, and that is why they get scammed.

I think you will see in bold capital letters that I made it a point to generalize the statements. That should make you happy, I hope.

[MatrixWatch]

And speaking of attacks... Hmm....

From: The MMG Forum (http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=62)

ASFx
MoneyMakerGroup Admin/Webmaster
post Jul 24 2004, 08:46 PM

Matrixwatch is just a group of whining babies that all pretend to be lawyers. They like to roam the internet and waste their time trying to take down matrix sites.

How ironic that this quoted message appears in a thread discussing the crash of GotMatrix. The people who listened to us and didn't get involved with matrix sites were not affected by that collapse. Those who listened to the matrx supporters and people like ASFx were affected by the collapse.

It is strange that when these scams finally do what we said they would do, the scam supporters just cannot bring themselves to admitting that the people should have taken what we said seriously.

So let me take this opportunity to warn people against doublers, HYIPs, matrix sites, randomizers, and other such get-rich-quick schemes. They are a total ripoff, are questionably legal, and are not founded upon a sound foundation of checks and balances. They are a waste of money, and it would be better to keep money in your piggy bank earning 0% interest than to take a risk on these scams.

[jokach]

Well the one thing about that post on MMG is that nobody has to "waste .. time trying to take down matrix sites", most of them pretty much fall on their face as it is ..... the list is ever-growing!

[ycchen]

The doubler business is going down hill as expected. The market saturation actually comes earlier than the "collapse of the pyramid by its own weight."

Wait... the pyramid-doubler is designed to scam and die (not necessary close) in 30 days, the owners and players won't even bother if they will last until tier 4 or 5 in the pyramid scheme.

I wonder if ASFx is willing to fully inform his forum members about the PYRAMID nature of the doubler, matrix and HYIE. Probably not.

I thought moneymakergroup.com is different from the pro-matrix forums (like matrix-sites.net and top-matrix) ,which tends to hide the TRUTH at all cost. Unfortuantely, I was wrong.

If moneymakergroup.com is just another pro-matrix forum, then it will be buried together with the dead of pyramid-doubler scheme. Too bad.

The next pyramid-(fill in the blank) scheme will probably need another support forum of its own again...

People, please share your insight on the next BIG thing (using Damion's language)? I should probably start a new thread on this topic :D

[Dreamer]

I hate to say this, but I don't think MMG is going away anytime soon. Unlike pro/anti matrix forums, it doesn't really take a stand on anything. i haven't read anything of any significience in their forums. No offense to ASFx or any of his wonderful members. But, its just an advertising site for the newest scammers. And their members...I like reading the posts of "lets not be greedy and destroy this one". The members aren't the community some would like to think they are.

So, here is how to run a successful scam now adays.

1. Buy a doubler/matrix site/trippler/any other ponzi scam on eBay or omewhere.
2. Pretend to be a friend of the admin and advertise on MMG.
3. Any tough questions, say you'll try to ask your best friend but he's not answering his PMs.
4. Take lots of money from people.
5. Blame hackers and keep 20% for your hard work.

[ycchen]

I am confident that MMG will be buried together with the dead of doublers, just like pro-matrix forum with matrix :) Of course, it will probably last for another 3 months, but the traffic to the site will drastically slow down after the doubler concept gets old.

One good thing about MMG compare to pro-matrix site is that they are much more active and lively. The turn around of each doubler scam is pretty fast. Lots of excitment about making 100% ROI in a few minutes. As you can see, things are slowing down a lot, and no new site can get prelaunch members to more than 200.

Again, this is how all this pyramid scam works. The person who comes up with the latest idea (concept) of packaging the pyramid/ponzi scheme will "win all" (get all the money). We call this "winner takes all" phenomenon. The profit drastically shrink as all the copy-cats rush into the market. It's easy to get into the market thanks to the script that is readily available, making the entrance barrier very low. Any idot can run a doubler. If they can't, they can always blame it on hacker, cracker, host, pay processor, their dogs or their neighbor playing piano.

Doubler concept is getting old, so the pyramid addicts need a new concept. Some eggheads would call the birth, mature, saturate and dead of a concept/product -- "Product life cycle" :)

Because of the market saturation, the money available is shrinking because most of the "free money" are trapped inside the old doublers or other scams. Therefore, the new doublers have no choice but become more "scammy" in order to squeeze a bit more profit out of a basically dry doubler market.

I am not surprised that many poeple are nostagic about the "good old time" with the old doubler because they can play good guy when they can monopoly the market.

Remember the good old days of Gotmatrix? :D

[concerned]

Any idot can run a doubler. If they can't, they can always blame it on hacker, cracker, host, pay processor, their dogs or their neighbor playing piano.

This is the best one that I have ever heard yet. I think you should get a prize for most original matrix excuse.

CUSTOMER: What happened to the site where I was hoping to make a lot of money?

OWNER: My dog ate my ponzi scheme site. I can't make a refund. Sorry.

That is excelent.

Now, so that I don't hijack this thread, I will talk about MMG.

I think that site will be around for a lot longer than you think. After all, haven't you seen the SCAM section lately? I think within about 2 months it will be their MOST POPULAR section. It is a close second right now I believe. Pretty soon, the only talk over there will be how they were scammed over and over again, and how they might finally realize that they can't win anymore. Then maybe they will come over here and wave the white flags.

[Kenny]

well i had to step in and throw my 2 cents at ya'll....

To be honest for the most part the majority review here is correct. Just like in any business ( real or scam ) for people to make money someone has to lose it. I dont care if its the stockmarket or what it is. Thats just the nature of FREE ENTERPRISE. I personally look at the doubler/hyips as a fun way to make a few dollars. I have lost and made money. Its like gambling to me.

If i lose money in a "doubler" then its my fault ( for the most part but we all know most admin arent honest). I decided to play the game and lost.

I understand that this forum is set up to educate the "newbies". I couldnt agree more. BUT if someone puts money into something and doesnt research it or make that decision based on as much info as possible, then that person needs more help then I or anyone here can give them. EXAMPLE:

How many people lost money on a "hot stock" ?
Who bet on a horse on a hot tip from a buddy ?

Life has it's lessons and if someone continues to get "burned" by any kind of scam, then its that persons own FAULT. Not mine nor anyone else here.

So maybe the poeple here would listen a little more to the old saying " you can bring a horse to water, but ya cant make him drink" ... please people think about that statement.

I am all for educating people and we all know alot of people need the help. But after reading thru alot of this I see a cult like biased forum. You would gain alot more respect if you just stated opinions and let people make up thier own minds. But no ... after reading thru a good portion of this forum i get the feeling that ya'll want to be the "internet police".

I am in no way taken up for some of the blatant scams on the internet. I agree if someone scams people they should be held liable for it. I personally know that programs like YMMSS, PIPS and a few others have helped alot of people. I am not under any misconception that any program will last forever. But with good intentions a program can help alot of people. Now before ya'll get ready to blast me about "the money that helped people might hurt some other sucker" etc. Refer back to my education statement. If someone is going to get involved in something with thier money ( espically those with limited funds), shouldnt that person do so with a little caution and alot of research?

The saddest thing I see or hear is that people have "lost thousands of dollars through the years". IF someone has said that then maybe they should stop blaming everyone or every program and relize that maybe thier judgement is a little off.

just a little "food for thought" .... and i was kind in my statements if people just bash me and cant take part in a descussion it shows me that people here know i am right. If someone resorts to attacking me.. I will attack back and would gladly meet anyone , anywhere to "discuss" this.

SO PLEASE respond back with intelligent banter....dont throw the bs at me....

[jokach]

Hi Kenny

If you're looking for 'intelligent banter', I would suggest not coming into the forums making comments like we are some kind of a cult, demanding answers and making threats. Most readers will pass your posts right by when you act like that.

Regardless, most of us are in agreement that people need to take responsibility for their own investments, and what we do is provide the information to these people to help them make a good decision. Matrix sites will outright lie to the consumer to make money, they post forged testimonials and promise cycle times that are not even close to what they really are. Worst of all, every matrix site will collapse at some point, the mathematics guarantee it, this means that someone will get ripped off. This is why we provide the information and REAL testimonials of people who have been ripped off, matrix site owners who have come clean, and former pro-matrix people who are now either neutral or anti-matrix.

If after reviewing all the posts, statistics and closed matrix sites information that we offer, the person decides to invest in a matrix scheme anyway, thats their choice, and they have made their own decision and should expect to take a loss when it comes crumbling down. We actively work to close fraudulant auctions on eBay and Yahoo, and work to close down matrix sites before they can rip off anymore consumers, I guess I don't understand what point you are trying to make. :confused:

Understand also that just about anybody here who is anti-matrix, will not convert to pro-matrix and vice-versa regardless of the conversation, facts, threats, etc. So we will not host a flame war here between anti- and pro-matrix people, we've done that before, and nobody's opinions ever change ....... . :cool:

[Kenny]

I have to agree with what you say. People are lazy and will always look at the get rich quick programs to "change thier life". I dont do it for a living it is more a form of entertainment to me. I also have to agree that no one will change an opinion.

Last thing... i didnt notice any THREATS in my previous post? What part of it was a threat? If i threatened anyone that was not my intent. I was just making it clear that I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents and not be attacked like has happened in the past.

Also I personally dont know of anyone who under the impression that any program running today will still be around in 6 months are even one year from now. We know that people have to get in and get out with some profit. Just like if ya sat at the blackjack table in the casino. You can defeat the house for short period of times but in the long run the house will take it all. We use that stategy when playing these. Notice I said playing these doublers. It isnt a job or a career. If someone is counting on matrix sites or "doublers" or whatever for a living then that is POOR judgement and I feel for them and thier family.

I also have to disagree with your statement that all of them will "fail". How do you define fail ? Just because the program doesnt last forever doesnt mean it fails. To judge that something failed, wouldnt you have to know the owners/admins objectives when opening? IF i was opening a program and decided that my objective was to last 2 weeks and i completed my objective. Then it didnt fail eh ?

I also noticed that my comment about free enterprise was overlooked? Why was that? Cause its a FACT? And it doesnt support your principals?

Thanks for letting me voice my 2 cents and thanks for the respectful comments!

[jokach]

If someone resorts to attacking me.. I will attack back and would gladly meet anyone , anywhere to "discuss" this.


This is the type of threat that I mean, if you don't want to be attacked, please don't attack anyone here by making statements like "I also noticed that my comment about free enterprise was overlooked? Why was that? Cause its a FACT? And it doesnt support your principals?"

I apologize if I overlooked your free enterprise comment. If you think that matrix sites fall into being a free enterprise, thats your opinion, I don't necessarily agree. I just don't see where supply and demand has anything to do with the way that matrix sites mislead people, over-charge for worthless items, and provide free gifts to some of the customers. To me its a fraudulant way of doing business.

my last comment on your post is about this ..

I also have to disagree with your statement that all of them will "fail". How do you define fail ? Just because the program doesnt last forever doesnt mean it fails. To judge that something failed, wouldnt you have to know the owners/admins objectives when opening? IF i was opening a program and decided that my objective was to last 2 weeks and i completed my objective. Then it didnt fail eh ?


The ultimate goal of a matrix site as an owner wants you to see them is to provide discounted gifts to their customers because thats how they advertise them. If every customer does not get a gift, then it is not successful, therefore a failure, and no matrix site has ever paid off all its customers. If what I have mentioned is not the ultimate goal of a matrix site, then the owner is misleading the customer. Sure, the owner wants to make some money, but if you are running a legitimate business, the customer and their expectations should come first. This is why I have a problem with matrix sites.

The good part is that you take matrixes/doublers as a game, or as entertainment. Too many people look at these programs as ways to buy Xmas gifts for their kids, or to make extra money, not knowing what they are really getting into. We help to provide that information to make an informed decision because as I've said before, too many matrix/doubler programs don't explain the risks in getting involved.

Good luck to you.

jokach

[Kenny]

first of all i wasnt attacking anyone by stating that. what i have noticed on forums is alot of people will say things hiding behind a cpu. If i have something to say i will say it anywhere in front of anyone.

Jokach, I do however commend you for your professional manner. My comment about the free enterprise system wasnt just about supply and demand. I was reffering too for someone to "make" money, someone has to "lose" money. Thats how a free enterprise system work ( they teach that in any jr high economics class).

I do have to disagree with your ultimate goal comments. Matrix (doublers etc) admins open programs for alot of reasons.
Make fast cash.
Scam people.
Help thier friends make cash by stacking the top.
some are even honest and just want to run an online business. (legality is another issue)

I am sure thiers a few others..... But the point is every admin has a different reason for opening a matrix/doubler/hyip/ randomizer etc. you cant assume that every admin does it for the same reason. Thats crazy to think that way.

Have also noticed that ya'll are correct in stating that the idea behind these is flawed from the get go. That is true, everyone knows that all matrix whether a "powerline" or straightline or a 2x10 or whatever will stall. The owners know this from the day they open.

I see it like this... a failed site is where the admin doesnt achieve his goals/objectives. A closed site is where the program ran its course ( usaully 3-6 months sometimes longer with smooth operation.)

I do think that this industry should be regulated. Not closed down totally.

Wanna discuss legality? Nah i dont even wanna open that can of worms LOL.

Thanks for the conversation, I enjoy intelligent banner like this.