matrix-sites.net

[hurley9192]

If you get a chance check out some of their forums...I had a good debate on the "frozen 420 list" forum. They deleted one of my posts but have left the others up there and I raise some issues about what they would need to do to get more legit.

I still think they are just dressing up a pig and pretending they have a girlfriend, but if they could get it so the people that come upon these things down the road can actually get something, then they may be on to something...but that would go against their "business model".

[MatrixWatch]

It is the goal of Matrix Watch to ensure that those people do get something back. I hope, for all those people's sake, that we are successful. It is also for the sake of those who are not yet trapped in a matrix site that we act. Through education and mobilization I believe we can accomplish our goals. I have heard many site owners say that they give all the details on their websites and that anyone who joins the matrix knows what they are getting into. They call this education, but I call it indoctrination. Indoctrination does not equal education, and it does not enable the would-be customer to know what is really going on.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
It is the goal of Matrix Watch to ensure that those people do get something back. I hope, for all those people's sake, that we are successful. It is also for the sake of those who are not yet trapped in a matrix site that we act. Through education and mobilization I believe we can accomplish our goals. I have heard many site owners say that they give all the details on their websites and that anyone who joins the matrix knows what they are getting into. They call this education, but I call it indoctrination. Indoctrination does not equal education, and it does not enable the would-be customer to know what is really going on.


There is no Indoctrination going on, they are explained how everything works thru Faq's and such that you might find on other Non-Matrix sites. Of course I would not call it education either, but they are told, and do agree to the terms when they make a purchase...........Indoctrination is to put forth a point of view about an Ideology......

[peterdragin]

Sure but EVERY Matrix site I have gone to they use the Magical 5 person matrix as an example in the FAQ's, but the only thing is, I have seen VERY VERY few 5 person matrix items on these sites.

Just lately since the big lines on every site has stalled are the sites coming out with a short matrix 3 to 5 person lists, now tell me you haven't done it on your site ?

[hurley9192]

You can still have a short matrix, but if 5 people throw in $50 and only one pulls out $200 and the rest goes to the site, what happens to the other 4??

Hopefully, 20 more people will throw in money for them to get their $200. Then what about the 15 that didn't get anything?

It just keeps on getting bigger...

A 5 person matrix means that 20% get something and 80% don't. It's a gamble or a ponzi scheme, you choose.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Sure but EVERY Matrix site I have gone to they use the Magical 5 person matrix as an example in the FAQ's, but the only thing is, I have seen VERY VERY few 5 person matrix items on these sites.

Just lately since the big lines on every site has stalled are the sites coming out with a short matrix 3 to 5 person lists, now tell me you haven't done it on your site ?


My sites have not changed on the cycle lengths at all. Mine were designed to be short.

[Talented Mr Rae]

Do we the people not get a say whether or not we want these sites to continue running and don't want you people shutting them down. Here's a post I made on the matrix-sites forum under the nickname "PHil":

It is very easy to mimic anyone when sending an email so it could have well come from them and not ebay. As for sabotaging PayPal accounts for the "benefit" of the people in the matrix sites... surely this is hurting the people as their money will be frozen, and the people who are going to be awarded something form the site will lose out!

Most matrix sites state how they work, and it doesn't take a genius to work out the maths involved. I knew what I was getting myself into when I joined up with sites, and thanks to my reading of all the info, I'm up £500 by entering only into new sites. If I'd put the £100 or so I'd invested, into the National Lottery, I wold probably have got bugger all back!

People who don't read the small print deserve to lose their money - who has ever heard of getting a free XBox for buying a £20 eBook! There's obviously a catch.

MatrixWatch should stop their "fight for the people", because being one of these 'people' that their fighting for, personally, I do NOT want them closing down or ruining the matrix sites I'm on.

Sure, report to eBay false auctions - that's not what eBay is for, but stop reporting to merchant and payment accounts about matrix sites - that's the job of the merchant companies and it's their fault if they let them slip through.

I do not agree with your "Fight for justice" at all. Perhaps you should stick to just getting peoples money back from sites who have closed down and run with the money, or sites which do not properly describe how their system works.

There is no such thing as a free 'lunch', but at least these sites offer a method for at least some people to get things cheaply. If you're too ignorant to read all the information on a matrix site which states how one works, then you deserve to lose your money!

Leave it up to the people to decide - don't decide for them!!! :mad:

[tcb1969a]

Well said Mr Rae

[MatrixWatch]

The customers who are at the bottom of these matrix lists do not agree with you. The FTC has estimated that 97-98% of the people involved in these matrices will NEVER receive their item. That leaves 2-3% who receive their prizes at the expense of all the rest. You are most likely a customer within that 2-3% bracket, and you are more than welcome to unite with those in your same situation. However, know this, that while 2-3% of the people may agree with you, 97-98% agree with me. If one of the sites that you are involved with suddenly closes down, then you will be hoping that there is something out there like Matrix Watch that will do all the work to make sure you get as much of your money back as possible.

[peterdragin]

I posted a reply to your post but they deleted it, it just shows how one sided the thinking is on that forum.

You can come back anytime and your post WILL still be here for everyone to read and comment on.


And a well said to watchdog Also !!

[Arzel]

I must also take issue with your statement "People who don't read the small print deserve to lose their money".

It is this kind of attitude which underlines the problem behind matrix/ponzi/pryamid schemes. It irritates me that I live in a world where it is becoming increasingly difficult to trust other people, particularly when it comes to the internet.

At least I can take solace in the fact that through this forum I am meeting people that I can trust.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
The customers who are at the bottom of these matrix lists do not agree with you. The FTC has estimated that 97-98% of the people involved in these matrices will NEVER receive their item. That leaves 2-3% who receive their prizes at the expense of all the rest. You are most likely a customer within that 2-3% bracket, and you are more than welcome to unite with those in your same situation. However, know this, that while 2-3% of the people may agree with you, 97-98% agree with me. If one of the sites that you are involved with suddenly closes down, then you will be hoping that there is something out there like Matrix Watch that will do all the work to make sure you get as much of your money back as possible.

Being a Matrix customer as I have been, if a site closes down that I am on there lists, trust me when I tell you that I for one would not need something like Matrix Watch to try to get my money back. Why is that? Because I realized what I was getting into, and would chalk it up as a lost, and go on to the next Matrix site. This is because I am not a whiner......

[Talented Mr Rae]

Originally posted by watchdog
The customers who are at the bottom of these matrix lists do not agree with you. The FTC has estimated that 97-98% of the people involved in these matrices will NEVER receive their item. That leaves 2-3% who receive their prizes at the expense of all the rest. You are most likely a customer within that 2-3% bracket, and you are more than welcome to unite with those in your same situation. However, know this, that while 2-3% of the people may agree with you, 97-98% agree with me. If one of the sites that you are involved with suddenly closes down, then you will be hoping that there is something out there like Matrix Watch that will do all the work to make sure you get as much of your money back as possible.

Like I said, people should read the small print - then they will know what they get themselves into.

I must also take issue with your statement "People who don't read the small print deserve to lose their money".

It is this kind of attitude which underlines the problem behind matrix/ponzi/pryamid schemes. It irritates me that I live in a world where it is becoming increasingly difficult to trust other people, particularly when it comes to the internet.

At least I can take solace in the fact that through this forum I am meeting people that I can trust.


I'm an adult. People who enter these matrices are adults (or should be to own a credit card). They should know better! They should be grown up enough to look after themselves and not be irresponsible and give their money away before reading the "small print" (the last part is in quotations because it is usually the same sized writing as everything else)!

[tcb1969a]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Mr Rae

[Arzel]

Taking advantage of irresponsible people does not do any of us any good in the long run. Who do you think pays in the end when these irresponsible people go bankrupt? That liability doesn't just disapear into the air. Everyone ends up paying a little more for their goods and services to cover these losses.

You, tcb, obviously do not really care what happens to your customers in the long run.

[tcb1969a]

Excuse me Arzel, I care a lot more than you realize. I originally got into the Matrix ownership cause I wanted to help people not rip them off. Just cause I agree with Mr Rae does not mean that I am some low life scum out to make a quick buck......

In fact I have made more money being a Matrix Customer than a Matrix Owner.....And quite frankly I don't care if you believe that.

[Talented Mr Rae]

Originally posted by Arzel
Taking advantage of irresponsible people does not do any of us any good in the long run. Who do you think pays in the end when these irresponsible people go bankrupt? That liability doesn't just disapear into the air. Everyone ends up paying a little more for their goods and services to cover these losses.

You, tcb, obviously do not really care what happens to your customers in the long run.

in that case then this site should be www.allsortsofgamblingwatch.org

[poorme]

We have to have him being tested on a lie detector and see whether he really care about the the losers or not. Let's contact FOX.

[Arzel]

The point I was trying to illustrate was that you are making contradictory statements.

Mr. Rae:
People who enter these matrices are adults (or should be to own a credit card). They should know better! They should be grown up enough to look after themselves and not be irresponsible and give their money away before reading the "small print"

To which tcb replies:
I couldn't have said it better myself, Mr Rae

And

tcb:
Excuse me Arzel, I care a lot more than you realize. I originally got into the Matrix ownership cause I wanted to help people not rip them off.

How can you both care about your customers, wanting to help them, while having the attitude that those that don't read the small print it is their own tough luck?

[tcb1969a]

Your taking it out of context and reading to much into things.

They should read the small print which coincendently isn't that small. For every site has legality terms of service that there customer should read. This covers the site and the customer.

It's just common sense....

[Arzel]

You should never assume what your customer understands. Your definition of common sense may be completely different than that of someone else.

For example:

When the US reversed it's laws on speed limits and reglegated the decision back to the state some state decided that they did not need a speed limit as such. Montana had no speed limit, only a statement that said that drivers must drive a safe speed (during the day, they did have a speed limit at night). The general policy was that speeds over 80 were considered common sense unsafe.

One individual, however, would consistantly drive well over that limit, and frequently drove 100 mph plus. This person was eventually given a ticket for unsafe driving, but because the law was vague and common sense was undefined his conviction was overturned. Montana reversed it rules regarding speed limits and imposed a speed limit all because of this one person. The end result was that there is really no common sense regarding speeding.

There is no common sense regarding anything, and relying on common snese only opens yourself up to unforseen litigation.

(please forgive any spelling errors, I have just returned from a 4th of July celebration, I hope everyone here had a safe and fun 4th) :)

[tcb1969a]

So under that ideology, there is no need for any site on the internet nor any business for that matter to bother having Terms of Service, if the customer can get out of the binding terms by claiming ignorance.......

[Arzel]

Having a TOS is a good idea for any business offering a service. The whole point is that your TOS is worded such that you don't require a customer to agree to something illegal. Also you cannot word a TOS such that it is impossible to live up to the terms of the TOS even if every element of the TOS is legal in and off itself.

For Example:

On EzExpo's TOS page they state the following.

Entry into a free gift matrix MUST NOT be constituted as a contract whether implied or other, by or between EZ Expo and the customer.

Seems understandable, but later in the TOS they have the following statements.

Our services are available only to, and may only be used by individuals who can form legally binding contracts under applicable law.

and

By Purchasing the E-Books you agree that you are entering into a legally binding contract between you and EZ Expo. You further swear that you have met the conditions of eligibility to use this site as outlined in section entitled "Eligibility to use this site" contained in this contract.

This seems a little contridictory. You must agree that you are entering a legally binding contract when you purchase an e-book. The e-books are directly tied to the free gift item, yet you must agree that you are not entering into a legally binding contract for the free gift.

The only service that EzExpo provides is the free gift matrix. The selling of the e-books is a product that would require no further service after the sale. Of course we know why EzExpo has written it this way, they are trying to make the point that the instant you buy the e-book you agree that you will not request a refund, ever. Because this would obviously mess up the matrices. They also do not want to give the impression that the customer has entered into a contract for the free gift.

I personally don't think that there TOS would stand a challenge in court the way it is currently written, not so long as they require that you agree to a contract for the e-book. Because the e-book and free gift are directly related you cannot both agree to sign a contract, and hold EzExpo free from agreeing to the same contract. I imagine this will be another aspect of the lawsuit...unless the TOS is changed again.

[tcb1969a]

I think you are reading to much into it.....But who am I to say.

Also, when you purchase an ebook, there should be no refund due to the fact that it is an electronic medium that is downloadable and once downloaded can be easily copied. So by giving refunds to customers you are giving them a free ebook.

Of course I realize you all think that ebooks are worthless, but then again that is your opinion.....

[Arzel]

Well, I do think most e-books are probably worthless, I am certain that there are several which do have some value. And I do agree that when a person purchases an electronic medium such as an e-book or computer program, that refunds are generally out of the question.

But ebooks and refunds for them is just a red herring. The real issue will come down to the intent of the purchase. If it is shown that customers only purchased the ebook or other item to enter the matrix list it will be the end of the ballgame. All matrix sites will be deemed Ponzi schemes.

What I find very interesting is that many of the same people that were major players in the matrix world are now playing the e-gold game. And these are clearly illegal ponzi schemes. Many people are even referring them as "e-gold matrices".

[MatrixWatch]

What Arzel concludes with here is what has really been weighing on my shoulders this past month. I checked one of the other forums out the other day, and there was this person who said something like, "Yea, I'm through with the whole matrix thing. It has too many legal problems to sort out. I'm into e-gold now." When I read this I thought, "Have we done nothing to instruct these people?" I personally believe that the matrix sites will not last through the summer. The court here in California will look into these sites and figure out that people are not buying into the sites for the e-books. Furthermore, that isn't even the issue. The real issue is that the sites made customers buy the products in order to enter them into the matrix for "free". That is how an illegal lottery is run, and it is a plain and straightforward case. But if we succeed in shutting down one of the biggest internet scams of the 21st century, and all of these people run off and give their time to another fruitless ponzi scheme, have we really benefitted them? I would like to move the educational drive of Matrix Watch to the next level by investigating the reasons why people devote their lives and finances to these get-rich-quick schemes. If we can drive at the heart of this issue, then I think we can begin to do something to benefit these people's future.

[tcb1969a]

Why people try these get-rich-schemes is because they are tired of being poor. I thought that was self-evident.

The real issue is that the sites made customers buy the products in order to enter them into the matrix for "free".

As far as this statement goes, no one made or makes a customer do anything. You act as if we stuck a gun to their head and made them do it. Have I not taught you well enough about free will......

[MatrixWatch]

There is a misunderstanding here in my use of the word "made". By "made" I did not mean "forced". What I DID mean, and what I should have typed is "required". The matrix sites require that a customer buy the e-books, kitchen knives, etc. in order to enter the matrix.

I do agree that a customer has the free will to decide whether to be involved with a matrix site or not, however the risks that a customer believes he is taking is overrided by the surmountable amount of issues that were outside of his/her awareness when the purchase was made. For instance, do the matrix sites announce how they wrestle almost weekly with frozen pay-merchant accounts. Do the matrix websites have a page devoted to how much money is frozen, and how the only money coming in to pay off the cyclers is the money the customer is about to spend? Has any matrix site devoted more attention to the fact that basic mathematics determines that the lists will eventually become too long and collapse? Do the matrix customers know that eBay is no longer an option since they signed up, and that hardly any new customers are joining now? Does any matrix site explain that the whole concept of autocycling cannot possibly benefit every matrix list the site runs? Let's not even talk about those matrix owners who add false names into the lists to cycle money back into the autocycle fund, or into their own pockets. My goal for Matrix Watch is to give these customers all the facts that the matrix sites do not. This way they can truly make an informed decision. If any of the matrix-site owners would like to help the customers do this, then I welcome them here.

I understand that there are matrix owners who are trying to make the best of this situation. I recognize that there are some owners out there who are VERY hard-working and honest people. They don't want to cheat people, and they are trying to make this system work. The reason they have such a hard time doing this though is because this model is designed to reward only a few people. It is not a fair business model. If I could talk to those honest site-owners out there I would tell them that there is no easy "out" of owning a matrix site. It will always be a liability, never an asset. Matrix Watch is the best opportunity for those site owners because it gives them the opportunity to escape from their matrix sites and take their great business skills into the business world. Those talented site owners know who they are, and they know what I am talking about. This is their opportunity for an "escape from the matrix".

[tcb1969a]

Hmmm.

Well let's see here that sure is a lot of question, I will try to answer some of them.

1. Yes some Matrix sites do tell about frozen pay accounts, and let there customers know that they will use a more friendly Matrix payment processor.

2. Yes some Matrix sites tell the customer thru the faq's page and other pages that it is there money that pays for the cycler at the top of the list. Of course this is a mute point since most of you and the ones that complain about matrix sites do not bother reading anything, so of course you do not realize this.

3. Some sites tell there customers that is a list gets to long and stagnant, they will open up other lists that they can move to. Like turning 1 long list into 3 or 4 smaller lists.

4. Matrix owners let the customer know that they should advertise the site, but as far as I know they do not suggest eBay.

5. The auto-cycling fund is explained though what difference does it make since your whole argument throughout this whole forum is that our customers don't read our faqs and TOS.

6. Those matrix owners who add false names to their lists are wrong for doing so, and somehow that is the fault of the rest of the good matrix owners.

As far as your goal on Matrix Watch. You give a slanted look at the Matrix Community. It is very biased here. It is clear to everyone that you do not like the Matrix Community and are determined to bring it down. There is no good things mentioned on this forum about Matrix sites, just how bad they are. Further if I wasn't on here, it would even be more slanted....

As far as some Matrix owners wanting to escape the matrix, the only reason they do is they do not want the agravation of having to deal with you and the lawsuits.....It has nothing to do with whether a Matrix is legal or not.

[Talented Mr Rae]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
[B]Why people try these get-rich-schemes is because they are tired of being poor. I thought that was self-evident.


I'm not poor and if I were, then I'd be a fool to gamble it for the hope of a quick buck - and as far as I've seen from all the whining of closed down sites, most of the people that do invest are poor, fools who shouldn't be puting their money into matrix schemes in the first place!

[Arzel]

tcb,

1. I will grant that you are correct, but I believe it is a small minority.

2. I have yet to see a FAQ or TOS clearly state that, but I have seen some that imply as much.

3. That is not a solution. Also, I do not see how it would ever even work.

Lets say you have a 10 person list with 100 people on it and it becomes stagnent and stops moving. At this point there would be 90 people on the list with a net asset of $0 or very close to it. If you created 2 new lists with 10 person lists you would now have 45 people on each, but to cycle the person at the top would still need 10 people on each list. If you split the list evenly I would envision customers 99 and 100 as the 45th on both of the new lists. 99 originally needed 890 additional people to cycle and 100 needed 900. Now both need 450 (which sounds much better). But since there are two lists for prospective customers to choose from the combined rate of cycling does not change much. While I could see this action creating a short term boost, the benefits would be very minimal.

I could think of several other manipulations that you could do as well to change the appearance of the matrix, but none of them would really make much of a difference. Also, this manipulation of the lists would probably make a point in a court of law that the free gift of the matrix is what drives the sale of the ebook or other item.

4. I have seen some mention ebay, but recent actions have probably reduced that. Some site owners have even tried to recruit people to be ebay advertisers.

5. Autocycling does not work. Most of these funds come from "Profits of existing matrices". There would be no end difference from take an exisitng matrix and using 20% of the proceeds to apply to autrocycling as it would be to simply lower the cost of the matrix 20% or reduce the cycle length 20%.

6. While there may be good matrix site owners, and owners that truely were trying to be good and honest, there is no such thing as a good matrix. They cannot, and will not work for an extended period of time. All will fail, it is a mathmatical infalibility.

I think that this forum is very open and unbiased. And everyone is free to make their point without personal attacks or fear of deletion as they would be on some other forums. There are several of us that have a strong opinion of matrices, but to say that we are biased is unjust. I know that I personally did extensive research to make my conclusions, and that I was unbiased in that research. Because my reseach led me to the conclusion that matrices will not work should not make me biased, just simply opinionated.

[tcb1969a]

Well, I wasn't meaning anything derogatory Mr Rae, just that most people do join get-rich-schemes because of their financial situation. I wasn't poor either when I became a customer, but recognized a good savings that I could make.

[tcb1969a]

Arzel

I never really said that Matrices would last, just that if done right many people can benefit from them, plus people have the free will to do what they want to do with their money.

I do agree with most of what you have said, and understand fully your concerns. For I have an open mind for all aspects of a discussion.

However what I mean by being bias on this site is that you only formed 1 opinion, that all matrix sites are bad, and that is just not true. Just because of a few bad apples out there you can not lable us good matrix owners as just like the bad ones that have come and gone. It is not right to do so.

And believe it or not, I have made more money being a Matrix Customer than I have a Matrix Owner......

[Arzel]

Here is a section of the FAQ from urmatrix stating that ebay is a good place to advertise.

7. How can I get a free item faster?
While you are never required to advertise our site, it will help everyone if you tell others about it. Since the matrices cycle based on how quickly people sign up, it is fairly obvious to assume that the more people that see our site - the more that will sign up. Some members have websites that they put a link to us on (we have a banner if you would like to use it), other members advertise to opt-in email subscribers (please do not spam), and others put up auctions on ebay and other auction sites with a link to our website for $1 and are able to make an additional profit for themselves. If you do put up auctions, make sure that the sellers know that you are not selling the products that you are advertising - only the informational link to a website.


tcb,

I don't think I said all matrix sites were bad, and appologize if I did. What I think I said, and ment to say, was that I think the matrix idea is flawed and wil not work. There are some good matrix sites out there, but since they are using a flawed business model they will all fail, regardless of how well they are run, and how honest the owner is.

[peterdragin]

tcb1969a

Rember on another disscusion I was makeing the statement that most auctions on Ebay were telling that you would have to wait only a short time to get your "gift" like a few weeks to a few months. I stated that it all started with the Matrix site owners.

Your answer was ,
"And somehow that is All of the Matrix Owners fault?"


This is from the TOS on all three of your sites.

5. Generally speaking it takes around 2-7 weeks for you to cycle thru the list and receive your Reward. Sometimes it can be shorter or longer depending on the length of the list. So when a list has started it's best if you get on the list as soon as possible so you can get your Reward sooner.

Nuff said.

[tcb1969a]

Yes and I didn't give a deffinate time frame now did I?

[peterdragin]

No but you imply that it only takes 2 to 7 weeks and this is what the poor people signing up see.

If this is not misleading I never have seen it before.

This is what 90% of the auctions I get tossed off of ebay for,"
Being Misleading "

You can complain all you want but the matrix world is doomed!

The site owners are the one's who can take most of the blame for most their woes, NOT thinking far enough ahead to the problems that arise when lists get so long they stall. C.C. Processor problems when people want their money back after waiting the 2 to 7 weeks and they see nothing moving, by selling a worthless product that anybody can get for FREE with a little searching on the internet.

And the greed that took over by all the new sites that poped up all over the place, everybody wanted a pice of the action to make easy money by misleading the public into thinking in 2 to 7 weeks you can have a new toy or pockets full of money.

Like why did you start 3 matrix sites? OK I know you just wanted to help more people get the new toys they wanted, YA SURE !

[MatrixWatch]

peterdragin makes an interesting observation about the refund requests. Many of the refund requests to the pay companies begin after the timeline that the matrix site advertised. So, even though it was an "estimated" cycle time, it came back to bite the owners when the customers got wise to what was happening. Perhaps if you estimated your cycle time around 1-2 years, you wouldn't have as many chargebacks so soon.

[Talented Mr Rae]

Originally posted by peterdragin

You can complain all you want but the matrix world is doomed!


But you people don't seem to understand that not all customers want you to bring down the matrix world. Matrices are a gamble, as is blackjack. To improve their chances of winning, they learn to play the game. You should educate the public about how to play the matrix game. Don't deny us the chance before we can take advantage of it!

[MatrixWatch]

And as I have already said to you, the FTC concluded that only 2-3% of the matrix customers benefit. So, while it is true that some customers do not support what we are doing, the 97-98% bracket is relieved.

Regarding what you said about instructing people how to play the matrix sites.. I am. I am telling them to leave the Casino floor, to follow your analogy.

[peterdragin]

Sure; but even the Novice gambler at Blackjack has better odds at winning money than at a Matrix site.

You get better odds feeding slot machines, than what a Matrix site has.


If the sites would have considered giving refunds when lines stalled, site owners would have saved money in the long run because of the chargeback fees the C.C. Processors charge when giving a dissatisfied customer his money back. From what I understand it's 25 bucks each time the C.C. company refunds money to a buyer. Poof no profit, the C.C. companys have it now.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
No but you imply that it only takes 2 to 7 weeks and this is what the poor people signing up see.

If this is not misleading I never have seen it before.

This is what 90% of the auctions I get tossed off of ebay for,"
Being Misleading "

You can complain all you want but the matrix world is doomed!

The site owners are the one's who can take most of the blame for most their woes, NOT thinking far enough ahead to the problems that arise when lists get so long they stall. C.C. Processor problems when people want their money back after waiting the 2 to 7 weeks and they see nothing moving, by selling a worthless product that anybody can get for FREE with a little searching on the internet.

And the greed that took over by all the new sites that poped up all over the place, everybody wanted a pice of the action to make easy money by misleading the public into thinking in 2 to 7 weeks you can have a new toy or pockets full of money.

Like why did you start 3 matrix sites? OK I know you just wanted to help more people get the new toys they wanted, YA SURE !

I implied nothing more than what I said. I never said it would take 2-7 weeks, in fact more so than not I state it could take longer or shorter depending on the size of the list.

So you can complain all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is I have not had any chargebacks at all after that time frame because people understand. Of course you will always have 1 or 2 that doesn't understand and I did have 1 person that didn't understand anything at all, no matter how I explained it to her, so I refunded her money but her request was within 48 hours for which I purchased her spot so the one at the top of the list would not lose his chance of cycling faster by her backing out.

In anycase, in the beginning I had planned on having 3 different sites with different ideas. And so I created them, there was no alterior motive here. Just thought of different ideas I thought would go over good. And yes I do want to help those who want to make money or get a game system for almost nothing....

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Sure; but even the Novice gambler at Blackjack has better odds at winning money than at a Matrix site.

You get better odds feeding slot machines, than what a Matrix site has.


If the sites would have considered giving refunds when lines stalled, site owners would have saved money in the long run because of the chargeback fees the C.C. Processors charge when giving a dissatisfied customer his money back. From what I understand it's 25 bucks each time the C.C. company refunds money to a buyer. Poof no profit, the C.C. companys have it now.

Hmm.....I would like to see your data on that about the odds of gambling at a casino versus participating in a matrix site.

Also let me reiterate for the last time. The Matrix sites can not and should not refund customers because they are purchasing and electronic medium that is downloadable and can be duplicated. By giving a refund you are giving that customer the item for free, since you have no way of knowing if the customer has deleted the ebook or what not......

[Arzel]

Why do you need 3 different sites? It doesn't seem very logical since you give away the same free gifts on every site. What is the point?

If I was doing what you are doing I would have 3 sites selling different items but have the different sites feed into the same matrix. The price you sell you items for is arbitrary so it would have been pretty easy to line them up. Or just have one site and sell all of your stuff from the same site.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Why do you need 3 different sites? It doesn't seem very logical since you give away the same free gifts on every site. What is the point?

If I was doing what you are doing I would have 3 sites selling different items but have the different sites feed into the same matrix. The price you sell you items for is arbitrary so it would have been pretty easy to line them up. Or just have one site and sell all of your stuff from the same site.

Because all three are different concepts on the matrix idea.

Plus one of them, I sell desktop wallpaper not ebooks.....

[peterdragin]

Take Las vegas, It's a State law that there has to be a 25% payout back to the gamblers. New Jersey, the same. Michigan, the same. All states that have gambling allowed have regulations on how much must be paid back to the people doing the gambling, and the states keep close watch on it to make sure the public don't get ripped off.


Downloadable Media ?? Yor are still trying to justify that that is a product. A product that you only had to buy ONCE if you even did buy it. You just downloaded it from another matrix site, and since all of this type of Ebooks come with reseller rights so you don't have a product, you have somebody elses product.

Now tell me you searched the net and found a site that sold Ebooks you wanted and you bought them. NOT ! come lie some more to me, like the 2 to 7 weeks thing.

[Arzel]

Only 25%? I thought it was higher than that, but I could very well be wrong. I was a blackjack dealer for a charitible organization in my hometown for a summer, and they also sold pull tabs. The pull tabs had a minimum payback of 85% For every dollar ticket sold there was $0.85 in winnings in the pool of tickets.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Take Las vegas, It's a State law that there has to be a 25% payout back to the gamblers. New Jersey, the same. Michigan, the same. All states that have gambling allowed have regulations on how much must be paid back to the people doing the gambling, and the states keep close watch on it to make sure the public don't get ripped off.


Downloadable Media ?? Yor are still trying to justify that that is a product. A product that you only had to buy ONCE if you even did buy it. You just downloaded it from another matrix site, and since all of this type of Ebooks come with reseller rights so you don't have a product, you have somebody elses product.

Now tell me you searched the net and found a site that sold Ebooks you wanted and you bought them. NOT ! come lie some more to me, like the 2 to 7 weeks thing.

Well, unfortunately I am incapable of lying, but that is neither here or there now is it. I have learned throughout my life that you can not prove anything to anyone if they choose not to believe it. For instance the 2-7 week thing I have not lied about but yet, I am accused of such. It is these kind of deflamatory remarks that cause most matrix owners to not want to come on here and debate the issue with you all.

As far as gambling goes it is illegal in most states. Because of certain state laws. So all you have done here is enforce the fact that even if Matrix sites are illegal it will be up to the individual states to say they are....

And whether or not you believe it or not most of the ebooks I have collected which I have a lot of them, I purchased them from other sites. I also purchased CD's filled with 1000's of ebooks off of ebay, the place you love so much......

[MatrixWatch]

tcb,
I must say, you are on a roll tonight. You have brought up very relevant and important points within this debate, and I respect you highly for it.

You are correct about matrix sites' legality and different state laws. The unfortunate factor for the matrix sites is the fact that this lawsuit against EzExpo was filed in the state of California. California is where most of the pay companies are based, and they are most accountable to CA laws concerning illegal lotteries. It is quite possible that several other states have the same laws concerning illegal lotteries, but I do not have any documentation to say for sure either way.

[tcb1969a]

Also another question I might raise is whether or not California law is applicable to Internet companies? If so it could set a very dangerous precident.

As far as other state laws, I'm not sure either whether they have someting similar to California or not. I would venture to say not, but I am only guessing. The only thing I can think that would cover Matrix sites if it is deamed illegal in the state of california is to put on the Matrix sites something to the fact of "Valid only where not prohibited by law"

[hurley9192]

gambling in Vegas isn't based on when you show up to the table either so that's a poor example.

Here is how a matrix would work in Vegas...

Someone rolls up to the craps table and throws in $50, another guy rolls up and pops down $50, sooner or later you have 50 people there with $50 on the table each. They never roll the dice, but give back $200 to the first 10 that showed up and tell the rest that it's too bad but only 50 showed up so they are out money. The house keeps $500.

Do you think that you could get 50 people to keep showing up unless you falsely promised them that they would collect within a day if they just stayed around?? Then about a week later they are sitting there and wonder why they haven't recieved anything yet and it's because they are too far out.

Maybe that's a weird scenario, but that's essentially how this works. It is not gambling because in my example the 10 that got in early have some knowledge of when the game started and got in early. Essentially, the matrix community is all making money off the outsiders that get in after the site opens and all the matrix people have signed up and leave the outsiders footing their bills.

[tcb1969a]

Hurley9192

And that is why analogies are irrelovant. Matrix system is a system in itself. Otherwise if it was a Ponzi scheme as some have suggested the sites would be called Ponzi this and Ponzi that.

In anycase, there are a lot of people that fight the fight that Gambling is illegal. That it creates and unhealthy enviroment, and leads people to self-destructive paths. Some that argue that it brings other bad business around such as prostitution. But yet with all these arguments Casinos and such still operate in certain states. As well as there are Casinos on the Internet as well.

Now there is something worth going after Casinos on the Internet. How are they regulated? There is no way of knowing that they are not fixed. At least in a casino playing Blackjack for example you can tell if someone is dealing from the bottom of the deck, but you can't on Internet Casinos. Hmm....Interesting.

Also the supposedly legal lottery's run by the state, why are they legal, because the state says they are. That is hardly a valid point. Further there is no free entry into a lottery. Also people that win lotterys receive the winning from other peoples losses....

I could go on forever, but really what is the point, this site has already made up its mind that Matrix sites are illegal, and will not rest until all Matrix sites are closed down. I believe that is what you said in one of your post, is it not Watch Dog.....

[MatrixWatch]

I have not said that matrix sites are breaking the law. I said that they are being sued for operating an illegal lottery. I have brought up examples that the lawsuit has stated, and I am trying to inform the class about this. These issues need to be finally decided in the courts.

[tcb1969a]

If it is an illegal lottery then it is breaking the law. By the way, word play does not work well with me.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
The only thing I can think that would cover Matrix sites if it is deamed illegal in the state of california is to put on the Matrix sites something to the fact of "Valid only where not prohibited by law"


I actually know of at least one matrix site that already has that on there TOS.....

[tcb1969a]

Yep....I know........I believe I seen it out there somewhere.....

[uwantme]

You know though just a quick note, most matrix companies can avoid all this just becoming an off-shore company anyway...

Just get hosting from some off shore company and say your business is located there.. Technically problem solved. Because we have established over and over again that if a matrix is illegal is soley based on that states laws so just take it out of the country where it is legal with all the casinos, porn, etc....

[tcb1969a]

Yep.....and of course StormPay is an offshore company. Of course I don't recommend them since they suspended my account.....

[peterdragin]

The Matrix sites can go anywhere they want and it will make no difference.

This is a FACT !! when me and a few others shut down the Ebay auctions you have LOST 95% of people to sign up for your Matrix lists.

Without Ebay you are just going to die a slow death!!

Link sharing between sites, Nope !, putting links on Porno sites NOPE!, None of these will get any traffic to speak of.

Get real selling T shirts for the same price you could get them at a Mall, 99% of people WILL buy them at a store where they could look at the quality of the shirt, yes there would be no taxes by buying online, but the small saving in tax would be over ridden by shipping costs.

Also I check Yahoo auctions, they have the same rules as Ebay on Info. auctions. Yahoo don't get the hits as ebay but still get 8 to 12 auctions canceled a week!!

[uwantme]

Why do you think ebay is the mecca of advertising?It really isnt you know. The best advertising is word of mouth. and thats not expensive or hard to come by if you do it right.. Do you know you can put an ad in the:

Los Angeles Times
New York Times
Dallas Morning News
Total cir.3.8 million

for about $500.. Thats really cheap in terms of advertising and more way way way more people will see it than on ebay and still buy from you. Plus its easy to rack up a few hundred on ebays fees so your not really at any loss.

Being without ebay is not going to hurt anyone.. Also you forgot with a tangible product, I can just sell that product on ebay and after the winner pays I can inform them of the site and the free gift list they can be put on if they want. Which also brings to my point that if all these people really wanted to buy clothes and jewelry at the mall then places like e-bay and other internet stores wouldnt be so hot either. No one said they would be sold for the same price just that they were worth the same price.. You can sell them cheaper its all about how much profit you want to make.. I also only used t-shirts as an example it culd be any kind of consumer product that people buy quite often and that make great gifts. Also which I have posted at least 3 times but you guys like to see what you want.. there is NO SHIPPING CHARGES. all shipping is paid by the website. So bring on another one... Your just upset because you guys a losing more and more of your footholds everyday and more more of what you are saying is getting disproven..

NO ONE needs ebay or yahoo to survive.. A smart business owner knows how to alternately advertise and bring in customers...

[peterdragin]

Sure you go tell the site owners that ebay isn't hurting them, and see what they tell you.

Sure tell your buddy about a Matrix site and when he is stalled on a list, try to explain it to him while he's kicking your butt!

Sure a SMART owner knows how to advertize , BUT ?

Sure maybe they could advertize in newspapers, but the C.C. Processors have all the Money !


Losing ? ? You wish , not happening at all in fact the fight is on the downward side now.

If you sell your tangible product on Ebay you better word it right or I'll get ya.

Tell this guy tcb1969a what happed when auctions on Ebay dissapear !

[uwantme]

ooohhh more threats... You really are getting desperate.

Okay to disprove more of your statements

If site owners are letting ebay hurt them then those site owners are not good business owners.. Everyone even the most holiest may not suceed at business if they do not know what they are doing.. Actually ebay is the beginners place to advertise anyway.. True business people will not be hurt by this.

I know lots of site that have never been touched by a c.c. processor and have all of their funds available to them.. I also know of many many credit card processors that will never bother these sites, like the same ones who porn sites, and casino sites use.. Like stormpay which is located off shore and never has to worry about lawsuits from the likes of you. Once again it comes down to the website owner to do their research first and find the right payment processors.

The fight is on the downward side? You havent been able to come up with one reasonable aurgument not disporove any of my arguements under any of my posts.. In fact I noticed that many pf you cannot even come up with a logically arguement for my post and in have ran away to just make snide remarks about them on other posts under other topics.

If I sell my tangible product on ebay I had better word it right?.... Wow is that a threat? Maybe I should report you to ebay for threatening me.... How would I not word a tangible item right? I have no plans to mention the free gift until after they payed.. Or is that something you choose not to read again from my other post.. Then back too I had better word it right.. If you are selling a real product and not advertising the site in your auction like I already said I wasnt going to do how can it not be worded right.. Your hamster taking a nap?

Oh sob, Im really scared now, what you caused some guy to lose his account with ebay? Oh the world is ending.. PLease MR. peter do not unleash your god like ebay power on poor lil ol me..

Get real.. I see the mess you make out of other peoples accounts and im not impressed or worried.. You have to get something on me first and I guarentee you wont. I know my business.

[peterdragin]

No threats just the Facts !

Urlkiller is the seller id on ebay, have at it !!

256 sellers kicked of ebay not just one. Email me and I'll send the list to you so you can check it out yourself.

[hurley9192]

the list is pretty impressive...

here's another one for you Watchdog...maybe the Franchise Tax Board would like to know about all the revenue coming into these sites...are they paying sales tax on their revenues??

if they aren't...that's tax evasion. The Feds would like to hear about that one as well.

[MaxPower]

Also Hurley...
Is EZexpo even a registered business. Do they have a business licsense? Or do the just call themselves one?
If they were not a registered business, then I do not believe that they could be incorporated.
I do not know if they are a business or not. Last time I checked on the BBB website... I could not find any record of EZexpo. Maybe I just missed them though.;)

[hurley9192]

They are trying to get incorporated...nonetheless...Shelby could be reporting this as a Schedule C on his personal return, which I will assume is not showing any profit because he can't be making too much money.

Although, he should still be reporting this for sales tax purposes, which at 7.75% or whatever it is in their state, would be substantial.

[peterdragin]

I don't know if they do or don't, but here is the IRS explaination of a gift by a small business. Don't look to good for anybody in the matrix site world.


Small Bus/Self-Employed


Gift Tax Questions

Q: What is the Gift Tax?

The gift tax is a tax on the transfer of property by one individual to another while receiving nothing or less than full value in return. The tax applies whether the donor intends the transfer to be a gift or not.

The gift tax applies to the transfer by gift of any property. You make a gift if you give property (including money), or the use of or income from property, without expecting to receive something of at least equal value in return. If you sell something at less than its full value or if you make an interest-free or reduced interest loan, you may be making a gift.

Q: Who pays the gift tax?

The donor is generally responsible for paying the gift tax. Under special arrangements the donee may agree to pay the tax instead. Please visit with your tax professional if you are considering this type of arrangement.

came form this url. Think this applys to a Matrix "gift" ?

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html

[Arzel]

This was discussed on the EzExpo board some time ago, before all of the posts were deleted.

The general concensus was that the prizes were considered just that prizes. The site owner would write down the cost of the prize on their taxes in their books, and the winner would recieve a 1099-misc (if I remeber correctly) and pay the appropriate taxes.

There had been some discussion about the $10,000 gift limit, but that does not apply in these situations. The full value of the prize is taxable.

Several site owners do not believe this and would have the customers not believe it as well, but there was a lot of research by various individuals on this matter, and it could not be otherwise.

[hurley9192]

That's a whole additional argument...

Mine wasn't even dealing with gift tax...it's the $45 for the ebook that I purchased. They owe the state sale tax on that and in CA, it's 7.75% of the gross revenues. So, that's $3.49 for each ebook purchased or 7.75% of whatever the value.

[Arzel]

That depends on the location of the site. For EzExpo, they should be charging sales tax on every ebook sold to somebody from Missouri, but I doubt that they are. If you live in a different state than it is not a current requirement, but that will probably change in the comming years. Several states want a way to collect those taxes.

So if the business has offices in the state you live in, you pay the state sales tax (if there is one).

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Sure you go tell the site owners that ebay isn't hurting them, and see what they tell you.

Sure tell your buddy about a Matrix site and when he is stalled on a list, try to explain it to him while he's kicking your butt!

Sure a SMART owner knows how to advertize , BUT ?

Sure maybe they could advertize in newspapers, but the C.C. Processors have all the Money !


Losing ? ? You wish , not happening at all in fact the fight is on the downward side now.

If you sell your tangible product on Ebay you better word it right or I'll get ya.

Tell this guy tcb1969a what happed when auctions on Ebay dissapear !

Tell me what? I haven't been kicked off of ebay.....Still there I just chose to advertise elsewhere.

Sometimes I just wish you would give some facts in your statements, instead of all of the rambling that you do......

Oh and by the way, there is always ways to advertise on ebay without you knowing.....But don't worry, I'm not doing it. I'm just instructing others how to.........

[peterdragin]

tcb1969a

You need to improve your reading skills, nobody said you were kicked off ebay.

And about advertising on ebay. I know you are not.

If there is a way nobody has figured it out yet. But there IS one way like I have said before but nobody would see the auctions.

So tell us how great your sites are doing without ebay ?? and no C.C.processor ??

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
tcb1969a

You need to improve your reading skills, nobody said you were kicked off ebay.

And about advertising on ebay. I know you are not.

If there is a way nobody has figured it out yet. But there IS one way like I have said before but nobody would see the auctions.

So tell us how great your sites are doing without ebay ?? and no C.C.processor ??

No you need to write better. You said tell this guy tcb1969a......

So I am wondering what you are reffering to, so I took a stab at guessing what you said since it was vague to say none the least.

As far as ebay goes, there are other ways to advertise, and ebay isn't going to make or break me.

And as far as Credit Card Processors, I am fine, unless you know something I don't know.....I utilize 4 different payment processors on my sites, and have had no problem. I did have a problem with StormPay, but I rectified that by not using them....

[uwantme]

Originally posted by peterdragin
No threats just the Facts !

Urlkiller is the seller id on ebay, have at it !!

256 sellers kicked of ebay not just one. Email me and I'll send the list to you so you can check it out yourself.

Once again though, that still has nothing to do with me or how I advertise. As I said you wont get anything on me. So your number of "kills" doesnt concern or affect me at all. Thanks for your userid it may come in handy later. Who knows what we may need it for.

As for your facts I see you couldnt add any more after I disproved all you last comments soooo......

[MatrixWatch]

uwantme,
I don't quite understand. Are you a site owner, or are you a person with ideas who wants to start a site? You seem to have very unique ideas, and that is something that the matrix community has been longing for lately. They are tired of seeing the same old thing. You also seem to be an intelligent person, which I am sure many customers will appreciate when they have questions. I think that a site owner's ability to answer customer questions is one of the strongest advantages a matrix site can have. It was because of extremely-poor customer service that I was persuaded to file a lawsuit against EzExpo, and all of this stemmed from that. While someone else might have eventually filed a lawsuit cannot be proven or disproven.. I can speak honestly though and say that if better customer service was in place at EzExpo as it is at other sites, I may have not been led to the point that I am at now.

Another question I have is did you choose to use flash on your matrix site, or did you stick with a more "basic" template?

[uwantme]

I am a pontential site owner whose working on building a site that is based on another site. I have been a following a site that is just like the one I have described. I wont lie I am also a member of it because I really liked their ideas and the fact they were trying to make the matrix a better, more fair, concept.

You are right customer service is one of the most important things, if you dont have happy customers you wont have a business for long. Thats why I like the idea of selling tangible products. I think it will make the customer happier than e-books. Plus it is something you can continue to sell without an incentive if or when need be. I can tell alot of people on here havent done research and still dont bother. Most say its impossible to sell a tangible item and make a profit.. But I personally have found a wholesaler that sells toungue rings for 15 cents each. This is what I think I will have on my site-body jewelry. Its always so expensive in those peircing and tatoo shops. These are the same tongue rings you would pay anywhere from $30-$50 at your local peircing store. I cant even begin to calculate the mark-up on that but to do the math in a matrix scenerio its like this.. Lowest retail value on them is $30. So just to beat local stores you sell it for $25. So to say if you pay $50 you get 3 tongue rings and your placed in a matrix for a free PS2. and it takes 6 to cycle. When that person cycles you have made $300. You can minus $180 for the PS2 so your left with $120. Minus another $20 and that should cover taxes, shipping costs, processor fees, and the 30 cent price you paid for the tongue rings. So you still have $100 profit. So you see matrix owners can have a site like this, sell a tangible item, and still make money.

Thats why on the other post I also think its very important to offer refunds. Any real business provides a refund period and I think matrix sites should do the same.. Whether your selling e-books or not. I customer might really hate the e-books they bought and want their money back so you should give it to them if they were really buying the e-books from you. I mean people can give any reason they want but its just another reason to sell a tangible product because you can ask for them to return the product to you in the condition you sent it to them to provide them a refund and your still not losing any money really. Now truth be told I dont think I customer should wait 2-3 months then ask for a refund, but anywhere from 14-30 days seems like a respectible refund period to me..

I came here before opening my site to see what you guys had the biggest problems with, with matrix sites and to see if it was possible to build a site that appeases everyone.. I see now that it is not, but I understand what I need to do to make the best site out there in my opinion and the fairest to everyone.

I do not agree with everything matrix sites do. The endless lists are my biggest beef.. I do not think endless lists should be allowed because like you state the math on them becomes high fast and very few will actually cycle that arent in the front. Thats one of the main things I hope to change with adding cut off pionts to my list and still selling tangilble goods to keep them moving until they are cleared.
I also have some other ideas for my site but i dont want to share all my secrets especially since I dont have too many supporters here.. The other thing I am hoping for is maybe a partner ship with the original site I am basing mine after. I have been emailing their admin for a while and hopefully we can work some kind of partnership out and then I can just help them improve their site Instead of having to pay to build my own, and build the best site out of theirs.. I dunno all just thoughts and notes for the most part right now.

If I do build a site, I dont know if I will use flash or not. On one hand its eye-catching but on the other it can take a long time to load and it can be annoying. So I dont know maybe I will make one design of each and see what I like better.

[tcb1969a]

I for one like your idea, and would like to see it come about. Though consider your refund idea carefully. If you sell products and start cycling people, and then someone wants a refund for which they were a part of someone cycling, that can hurt you severly. Just keep that in mind.

[uwantme]

Even though I understand that, i feel this was..

make sure you have stated refund period. I really think 30 days should be the longest to request a refund. Now if you have to give a refund on a tangible good, the item must be returned to you in the condition you sent it to them within a time frame. That way you dont lose any money on merchadise. Now there will be people who truly are not happy with their purchases and I see it like this. If you are truly selling an item and not the "free gift" if someome is unhappy with the item they bought or they want a refund it should be given to them.. While it might mess up the matrix though I dont see how it could affect it that much- the goal is to have happy customers who dont want refunds- so your refund requests should only be a small number anyway. Remember your not selling the matrix so it shouldnt matter..

Answer this is it better to give refunds or face lawsuits? Even watchdog has said many times if they had just given him his refund he probably wouldnt be doing all of this today..

I will take the happy customers any day and that is what makes a good business.

[tcb1969a]

Yes, that is true, you should refund someone if they are not truely happy. But how long did Watch Dog wait before he requested a refund.....Interesting question......

[hello]

I like your ideas. I also have my tounge pierced and paid a heck of a lot of money for a custom made 24K gold stud (feels so soft compared to the other materials). But if you are buying these things for 15 cents, are they actually made of stainless steel? Or are they those crappy hard plastic kind? If they are stainless steel, then I think you are difinately in business. However, I don't think it is hygenic to get a refund on a piecing, but your ideas are good, a matrix site that offers a real product that I could ACTUALLY use would be A-OKAY in my book.

[MatrixWatch]

19 days.

[tcb1969a]

Well, if you were on my site, I might have considered giving you a refund then Watch Dog.......

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hello
I like your ideas. I also have my tounge pierced and paid a heck of a lot of money for a custom made 24K gold stud (feels so soft compared to the other materials). But if you are buying these things for 15 cents, are they actually made of stainless steel? Or are they those crappy hard plastic kind? If they are stainless steel, then I think you are difinately in business. However, I don't think it is hygenic to get a refund on a piecing, but your ideas are good, a matrix site that offers a real product that I could ACTUALLY use would be A-OKAY in my book.

Thanks, the ones you can get for 15 cents are stainless steel. I went and looked for the 14k gold ones and you can get those from my wholesaler for:

14k Gold plated tongue barbells 14g $1.32
14k Gold plated industrial barbells $1.24

I know these are only gold plated. You know though I never really thought about selling the gold ones. Do you think people like them better? How much did you pay for yours from the store where you bought it? Thanks, it is nice to know that not everyone is against these new ideas.

You I agree its not hygenic to get a refund on a peircing and resell that same peircing. However that wasnt really what I was thinking about doing. I was thinking more along the lines of keeping all the refunded body jewelry seperate and once or if I got a good sized amount then I would send it back to my wholesaler for a refund. Or if I cant do that, maybe i will just sterlize it and keep it for myself or sell it for cheap to my friends who dont care about that either. But your right its something to think about. My goal is to have a very minimum of refunds though, so hopefully this wont be a problem.

[MatrixWatch]

Very interesting idea. I have never come across this site though. Is it already up or is it in the working stages?

[uwantme]

Originally posted by watchdog
Very interesting idea. I have never come across this site though. Is it already up or is it in the working stages?

I am a pontential site owner whose working on building a site that is based on another site. I have been a following a site that is just like the one I have described.

I also have some other ideas for my site but i dont want to share all my secrets especially since I dont have too many supporters here..

If I do build a site, I dont know if I will use flash or not. On one hand its eye-catching but on the other it can take a long time to load and it can be annoying. So I dont know maybe I will make one design of each and see what I like better.

To be honest watchdog, even if and when I do get the site up, I doubt I will post the name of it here. Your dogs are to mean and to be honest I dont want them visiting my site and nit-picking everything they can with it and causing trouble for me which they will more than likly do. I have heard the comments you and them make about not stopping until all the matrix sites are gone and all the payment processors will decline businesses like that.. No offense but I dont want to have to subject my new business to that kind of hassle you guys would more than likely will cause me.