YMMSS (Your Money Machine Success System)

[numbersman]

Is YMMSS illegal? I've found a lot of people are willing to defend it.

http://www.ymmss.org/answers.php/a/1/20

[ycchen]

Here is a more developed thread on the topic: YMMSS Thread (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2032&page=1)

Also, there is now a whole sub-forum devoted to discussion on YMMSS: YMMSS Sub-Forum (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=84)


I can't imagine a doubler that is not a ponzi/pyramid scheme. I am sure the state Attorney General will be interested in answering your question about the legality of YMMSS. :)

[ewong3]

Hi,

I've been a YMMSS member for only a month. Though I have not cycled any of my positions yet (takes 90 days), I believe I'm qualified to say that the reason why so many will defend YMMSS is because the program does what it's supposed to. You won't find a more praised program anywhere and that's a fact.

To answer your question...is purchasing advertising credits from a company that's willing to share it's profits with it's customers illegal? Give that some thought. Regardless, the company's headquarters is in Belize and not subject to US jurisdiction.

Regards,
ewong3

Is YMMSS illegal? I've found a lot of people are willing to defend it.

http://www.ymmss.org/answers.php/a/1/20

[ycchen]

Hi,

I've been a YMMSS member for only a month. Though I have not cycled any of my positions yet (takes 90 days), I believe I'm qualified to say that the reason why so many will defend YMMSS is because the program does what it's supposed to. You won't find a more praised program anywhere and that's a fact.

To answer your question...is purchasing advertising credits from a company that's willing to share it's profits with it's customers illegal? Give that some thought. Regardless, the company's headquarters is in Belize and not subject to US jurisdiction.

Regards,
ewong3

Thanks for your feedback, ewong3. I have to admit that I have little knowledge about this specific YMMSS, I did not even know that they are not based in the U.S.! :)

What I do know is that IF it is a doubler, then it is a pyramid/ponzi scheme, therefore illegitimate "scam." Unless it is MISLABELED as doubler, which it isn't. I don't know YET. Legal or not will depend on the law where it operates, I guess.

ewong3, keep us posted when your money double in 90 days.

Note: 200% profit rate in 3 months = 800% annual profit rate! wow....... :D

[ewong3]

Dear YCCHEN,

Thank you for your comments. I do understand the reason for having this forum to warn others about bad programs that do nothing better than empty people's pockets. I commend you for that. However my friend, it's easy to label every thing that doesn't operate like a "normal" business a "scam". This reminds me of the infamous "Quackwatch.Com" website that denounces every alternate therapy that is not under the umbrella of the "legal" medical profession. Chances are, they have hurt a lot of people whose lives could have been saved by effective alternate medical procedures. By the way, there are lawsuits pending against them.

Getting back to what "scams" are, these are plans in which the originator had malicious intentions to defraud and steal people's money from the start. Some programs that have failed have nothing to do with the operator wanting to "scam" people. I believe there are more malicious program members than program operators. Greed has a lot to do with it and other factors.

A "ponzi scheme" is basically pyrimidial in structure and is "open ended" meaning that if the people near the bottom of the structure want to get paid and make money, they must recruit others or they are out of luck. Even if the recruiting process runs strong, because there is an exponencial requirement of recruiting new members to keep the money flowing, it will sooner or later run out of "investors".

If we want to classify any activity a ponzi scheme where the "many" contribute to the "few" regardless of structure, consider that state lotteries, banks, insurance companies and even the Social Security Administration operate under that principal. The reason for the air of legitimacy is because these institutions are either government operated or licensed by the government.

What would happen to a bank if say 1/3 of the customers demanded their deposits? Would the bank have enough cash reserves to satisfy those requests? We know the answer to that one. What if a home insurer had a lot of claims in an area that was hit by a natural disaster. Living in Florida I know that some smaller companies have gone bankrupt due to the waves of hurricanes that hit us several months ago. The state lotto pays out a very small percentage of it's takes and requires a lot of "losers" to pay a few winners. It is not unknown that the Social Security Administration is in serious trouble and that funds could run out in as few as 15 years. An injection of money from the general funds could postpone the demise of the SSA but for a "brief" period of a couple of decades. It would require for the federal government to constantly inject funds to keep it going.

So there...now you have several more "scams" to post in this forum :)

ewong3

Thanks for your feedback, ewong3. I have to admit that I have little knowledge about this specific YMMSS, I did not even know that they are not based in the U.S.! :)

What I do know is that IF it is a doubler, then it is a pyramid/ponzi scheme, therefore illegitimate "scam." Unless it is MISLABELED as doubler, which it isn't. I don't know YET. Legal or not will depend on the law where it operates, I guess.

ewong3, keep us posted when your money double in 90 days.

Note: 200% profit rate in 3 months = 800% annual profit rate! wow....... :D

[sisco50]

I understand that YMMSS is second only to PIPS as far as internet money making sites go. The folks at this site consider PIPS to be a Ponzi, so I guess YMMSS is as well. Makes little or no difference to people that have done their due diligence and have a level of comfort with a program and the amount of money they are willing to put at risk in that program.

I have myself compared SSA with a Ponzi on many an occasion at several forums in the past. It's not strange that most people tend to agree that SSA is worse because you don't have the choice of playing or not. If you work for a living, you have to play. :)

[ycchen]

Hi ewong3 and sisco50,

I understand the imperative of maintaining the good image of these get-rich-fast schemes (>800% annual profit rate -- the highest return of investment (ROI) in the human history) ! Negative media coverage will kill the scheme before it "collapse by its own weight" (stagnant when the pyramid grows to big).

The funny thing is that if they are so successful and legitimate, why do customers have to worry about negativity on any online forums?

You go to any successful company, for example GE or Nokia, you find a link to all the wonderful media coverage about the company. I wonder if these two "long term schemes :rolleyes: collects positive media coverage or interview of their CEO on their website? If not, WHY? They should be the MOST successful companies in the world according to their profit rate, and they should have got all the media attention in the world, right?

For any legitimate companies as large as these two get-rich-fast-scheme claimed to be, may be you could shows us any major media interviews of the CEO of these two corporate "giants" (ponzi giant :)? That will automatically fense off any critics, I bet.

In any cases, I haven't have time to do detailed research on PIPS and YMMSS, so I will not response to you directly. Other members are welcome to join the debate.

Only time will tell. I don't think they will last for another 6 months, we shall see. :)

ycchen

[sisco50]

When I first heard about PIPS in March of 2004, the talk was that it would not last more than 3 - 6 months. It is now December 2004. Nine months later we are still saying it won't last another six months. What will we say next spring? It won't last another six months? lol From what I see, it is growing faster today than it was nine months ago. I think it may be around for a while. :) The rate of growth has gone from 10% per month to 17% per month since it launched. This is done without advertising or any required referrals.

[ycchen]

Hmm.. I wonder how they can earn such a high return? illegal gambling? :D Just kidding, I know you would probably cite 11 or 111 companies that runs by the PIPS CEO Bryan :)

If they can make so much money, why do they want to "share" their profit with so many small "share holders"? Why don't they just keep all the profit to themselves?

I think you should ask PIPS to go IPO, and all your "shares" will cycle EXTRA 5 times instantly. :D

BTW, could any PIPS or YMMSS supporters forward a few REAL news clips by reliable third party media (not their own newsroom) on these two most profitable "companies" in the whole universe. :)

[sisco50]

No need to ask as PIPS already said they will do an IPO in 2006. That is already in the works. The questions you ask are the same questions that have been asked and answered many hundreds of times since I have followed PIPS. All these are found at the PIPS forum as well as six or seven other forums I visit. They are in the FAQ threads. I will not do your DD for you as I feel that it is something one should do for themselves if they are interested enough in the subject. My telling you something will not make it so. You need to see it for yourself, I believe. :)

[ycchen]

To be fair, I will do some serious "soul searching" in their website someday. IPO in 2006? Wow... interesting.... I guess this "business" is getting pretty serious, or at least they know how to packaging their "scheme" better than others.

A good innovative marketing credit to PIPS!

Still, any media interview of the CEO? I like to hear directly from him on the record. If they are THAT serious about IPO, then the CEO should have done a lot of public interviews already.

[ycchen]

If you type "Bill Gates" Interview on google, you will probably receive hundreds of entries.

If you type "Bryan Marsden" interview, you receive ZERO entry.

PIPS's profit rate is the highest in corporate history, much higher than Microsoft, and I wonder why "Bryan Marsden" is keeping such a "low profile", especially if he is "thinking" of IPO in 2006. :rolleyes:

My question to PIPS supporters is, if your favorite company/scheme is going to IPO in 2006, why isn't the CEO "Bryan Marsden" speaking to ANY major media? He should have promoting his scheme to the public, and NOT just talk to his "members" or "followers."

Yes, I saw a lot of his pictures and even video of him speaking PRIVATELY to his "followers" in his OWN convention, and during his OWN tour around the world. BUT I wonder why "Bryan Marsden" refused to speak to the outside world directly through public media? Isn't it strange why such a successful "company" does not get media attention?

I have an answer. "Bryan Marsden" refused to talk to any media directly because he is afraid that he can not defense his scheme! :D

[numbersman]

When I first heard about PIPS in March of 2004, the talk was that it would not last more than 3 - 6 months. It is now December 2004. Nine months later we are still saying it won't last another six months. What will we say next spring? It won't last another six months? lol From what I see, it is growing faster today than it was nine months ago. I think it may be around for a while. :) The rate of growth has gone from 10% per month to 17% per month since it launched. This is done without advertising or any required referrals.

Some scams take weeks to die, some take months and others take years. Personally, I say 18 months is a time frame worth considering as evidence that a program has some history of survival. However, I'm not surprised when scams survive for 3-5 years. From what I understand matrix-based scams often fall apart when the money stops coming in at accelerating rates and this can potentially take years. 9 months history is trivial in my opinion.

[sisco50]

Yep. Nine months history is trivial in my opinion as well. This one has been paying out for over 1 - 1/2 years now. I only heard about it nine months ago. I only joined it four months ago. I fully understand about matrix based programs and their ultimate crashes. PIPS is not a matrix at all. Maybe this is why it may last a while?

[numbersman]

The admin at YMMSS in their response in the following thread

http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1227&start=30

submitted the link to the following document

http://onlinebizplanner.com/download/SuccessOne.pdf

After browsing through it I found the following quote:

"The heart of a Ponzi Scheme [is] using the money of late investors to pay the profits of the early ones, and when the supply of investors runs out it all collapses"

YMMSS looks remarkably different.

At some point retail ad revenue and other income streams, plus the recycling that enables the machine to run smoothly, will make adding members unnecessary.

The original YMMSS business plan, based on an increasingly valuable ad product, will have achieved fruition. (page 49)

and

Once this 100,000 goal is reached, self-sufficiency will have been achieved.

There will still be growth, but no more members will be needed.
(page 52)

YMMSS members claim that the money doubling strategy is a short term strategy to grow the business and in the long term the large membership will justify income through advertising to members through big businesses wishing to gain sales from this market of 100,000 members who have a lot of spending power. Because there is this goal of 100,000 members and it looks realistic for them (they are over 10% of the way), they claim they can't be a Ponzi scheme as the future members will be paid to read ads and nobody is losing out.

What I'd like to know is:

If a company uses a matrix program to grow a business and stops the matrix program after a point has been reached and follows that point up with a second strategy that utilises the growth to compensate the later members who joined, is the matrix program still illegal? (Can money doubling be used as a short term growth strategy?) I'm not totally sure if that is what YMMSS does but it sounds similar.

PS: If you bother reading the 54 page document, I recommend looking at the last 6 pages which debate why YMMSS is not an illegal Ponzi scheme. The previous 48 pages is a lot of boring blah blah with little content and mostly story telling.

[bobcallen]

Just some comments to those speculating about YMMSS. Sure there are plenty of scams out there, but there are exceptions. Kim is an exception. I've been a member of YMMSS for quite awhile now and have made thousands of $$. His company issues 1099s and has paid out $73 million since Jan 2004. I flew to Indiana to meet him at a meeting and came away convinced his is NOT a doubler but a well thought out business model that has proven itself for 2 1/2 years. He is building a legitimate advertising business and presently putting in an extensive infrastructure for the success of the business model. He loves meeting the members and goes out of his way to attend member sponsored meetings all over the country. He is not hiding from us. He's not afraid to show his face. The cynacism is understandable. We've all been burnt. I'm thankful for a man of integrity to be able to rise above all that and show a genuine interest in other people's success. BTW, Ronald Reagan once declared that Social Security was a ponzi system and I think he was on to something.

[surfer]

Thanks for your input bobcallen.

SS is a ponzi, and that's why it's near collapse.

Plenty of con men work with their victims face to face.

And they didn't actually pay out $73 million. Unless it's cash in someone's account, it isn't paid. And I doubt the real figures would ever be available. That number is extremely deceptive.

Time will tell, especially the next few months. I'm waiting to see how patient people will be when cycle times don't come down as promised.

Good luck.

[ycchen]

He is building a legitimate advertising business and presently putting in an extensive infrastructure for the success of the business model.

We have intensive discussion on his advertisement income in the other thread on YMMSS. Somehow, the advertisement infrastructure is more an ideal type in Kim's mind and seems impossible to actualize. May be you could try, again, to convince us using Kim's own langauge? :)

[surfer]

And for those interested, the link to the other thread is http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2032

[Dreamer]

Why does kim have integrity because it is pounded into your head until it becomes fact?

Kims ideal group will be worth 10b. Now, if the ponzi is no longer going to pay for the doubles, than he must get 10b worth of advertisors. Now, most advertisers hope to get back the money that they use to pay for advertising. The tried and tested ways of advertising is still probably best for most businesses, and the businesses that can afford different forms of advertising are testing product placement in video games and other ways to get their name out. Unfortunately, there is no benefit to advertise to kims group.

Anyways, to sustain the 10b advertising expense, its safe to assume that if advertisers dont get their money back they will go to other forms. 100% of kims group will not spend 100% on the advertisements.

But, even if that worked out, there is no cap to the earnigngs. I could be a 100b company. a 1t company. Do you really think that kim can secure 1 trillion dollars in advertisers moneys on a yearly basis just advertising to a select minority of people? Nope.

A good con man will ride the con as long as they can. The company probably paid out $25m. Kim probably has $10m in his grubby hands. Of course he'll go out to the meetings. You pay him good money to do that. What does he have to hide? As soon as he is found to be a con man, he'll just hop on a plane to beliz where he probably has protection.