I am a Doubler owner :(

[PleaseHelp]

Hi all,
I am a doubler owner and I feel terrible for launching my program. I'm an honest guy and I'm the type of guy that wouldn't harm an ant. Unfortunately, greed got the best of me and I launched a doubler program. It took me some time to process withdrawls (22 hours) so people reported me to INTgold and Egold as a scam and my INTgold and Egold accounts were shut down over a month ago (trying to resolve the issue but they have the worst support I've encountered).

Anyway, back to the point. Basically, right now I'm scared as hell of being prosecuted or sued for my system. I am a college student on financial aid because I have a little money (hence, my intention for launching the doubler). I definitely cannot afford a consultation with a lawyer if anything does happen. I really don't know what to do now. Right now I lost over $500 on my website (can't get my profit from INTgold or Egold because the accounts are frozen).

My product was a Logo created by one of my staff members and E-Books. I thought these things were completely legal (the person who sold me the script said they are).

Please help. :(

[jokach]

Its good to see that you realized that the program you started was not honest, but as you say, its going to be hard to get out. Let me just start by saying that this isn't legal advice, because i'm not an attorney, but my recommendation is to go through your list of people, and calculate how much it will take to refund everybody of their initial investment. Regardless of what the amount comes to, begin contacting these people to let them know that you will be returning their money, and if you are truly honest about rectifying the situation, return their money, even in parts if it means you have to get a part time job for 2-3 months just to pay people back. This amount of money you refund and the hard effort it takes will be MUCH less than the LARGER amount of money you can potentially be sued for and the criminal/legal costs if you are taken to court. The effort is the punishment for not doing the research on exactly what you were doing, there are always penalties for making mistakes, and this penalty is within your power and you owe it to your customers.

Just my advice, good luck with whatever way you choose to go.

[mercinary]

I give you a lot of credit for coming forward. You represent the tiny fraction of scam site owners who never intended to hurt anyone.

With that being said, you have a long road ahead of you. I agree with Jokach with all of his points. You definately need to contact every last one of your customers. You need to explain to each one of them your situation, and how you are trying to handle it. A full refund to each of the customers is the best-case scenario, but if you cannot find any way to physically come up with that amoutn of money right now, then start with paying them back a fraction of what they lost, with complete intentions on slowly paying each one back in full over time.

Please keep us updated on your progress, as we are willing to help you with logistics if it all possible.

You made a mistake, and you're going to have to pay to get yourself out of it, but you are doing the right thing.....and that will get you far in life.

-Merc

[ycchen]

Hi all,
I am a doubler owner and I feel terrible for launching my program. I'm an honest guy and I'm the type of guy that wouldn't harm an ant. Unfortunately, greed got the best of me and I launched a doubler program. It took me some time to process withdrawls (22 hours) so people reported me to INTgold and Egold as a scam and my INTgold and Egold accounts were shut down over a month ago (trying to resolve the issue but they have the worst support I've encountered).

Anyway, back to the point. Basically, right now I'm scared as hell of being prosecuted or sued for my system. I am a college student on financial aid because I have a little money (hence, my intention for launching the doubler). I definitely cannot afford a consultation with a lawyer if anything does happen. I really don't know what to do now. Right now I lost over $500 on my website (can't get my profit from INTgold or Egold because the accounts are frozen).

My product was a Logo created by one of my staff members and E-Books. I thought these things were completely legal (the person who sold me the script said they are).

Please help. :(
PleaseHelp, when pyramid-matrix just started, they are people like yourself who thought they can make easy money without any trouble, but it is often not the case. See the ex-ownwer testimonial page on this forum.

I am not surprice that the same thing happen in pyramid-doubler scheme because it is just too easy to set up. Unfortunately, not easy to shut it down. The only people can shut it down and still sleep happily at night are those who are WELL PREPARED. They hide their identity well, and prepare to close and run without a trace. Some are so good that they open another doubler with another ID. Obviously, you are not the sophisticated "scammer", and I believe they are more people like yourself out there thinking what to do next.

The ultimate solution is to refund everyone, learn from the lesson and move on, as Merc and Jokach have already said.

Even though we think the speculators (or exploiter of the scam), such as AFSx and Christy1224 are probably as bad as the scam owner, but without the scam system, these speculators have not playround to "exploit the pyramid scam by getting to the top of the pyramid."

Without the pyramid system, these season speculators (who will one day be procecuted together with the owner) will be forced to open their own pyramid scheme, or go to online gambling, or... walk their dogs 10 times a day. Anyways, eventhough we think the speculators are essential part of the pyramid-doubler system, the owner still hold the ultimate responsibility.

One clarification before we can go further. What do you mean by "right now I'm scared as hell of being prosecuted or sued for my system."?

Who are you talking about? Customers or pay processor (INTgold and Egold)?

[numbersman]

The person who sold you the script has obviously deceived you. Therefore he/she is responsible for your losses. You may find that you can get out of this problem that you've got yourself into slowly or quickly and only time will tell. Patience is a characteristic that you need. Many lawyers give initial consultations for free. Ring up some lawyers and see what you can find. You may find that you can get a settlement from the person who sold you the script to cover your losses.

If your a college student, then you may find that the college can help you. Many college's provide legal assistance for students.

[jokach]

I have to disagree about going after the person who sold the script. I'm drawing a blank on the legal term for it, but its like a drug user suing a drug dealer for ripping them off. Courts don't stand for that, and they look at it as if you were involved in something that is questionable, if you get ripped off, its your own fault .......

I really don't believe there are many lawyers who would even touch a case like this because of the nature of the 'script' being to make money, count on referrals and wait on a list and i'm sure any legal advice you will get from your college might follow the same route ...

[PleaseHelp]

Hi all, thanks for the comments.

Oh my god, I don't know what I'm going to do if I have to refund everybody. I barely can pay for my college tuition and living expenses. It's honestly nearly impossible for me to refund everybody unless I drop out of college. I don't even know what to do now because I cannot afford the server anymore to host the program.

Ycchen - I came across a document somewhere that suggested these programs were illegal that scared me because I hadn't heard this before. I started to do some more research and desperately turned to a lot of people in the business for comfort. On the script homepage, it says these things are completely legal if we are offering products to our members. I am offering products that take time to make, logos. I make my members a customized logo fitted to their needs. I also sent out everybody E-Books. On the bottom of every single one of my pages it says:
"DO NOT LOOK AT THIS AS AN INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITY. NOT EVERYBODY MAKES MONEY WITH OUR PROGRAM. WE ARE STRICTLY SELLING E-BOOKS WITH A BONUS OF RECEIVING YOUR E-BOOK FOR FREE. READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE OR E-MAIL US FOR MORE INFORMATION."

Sorry for yacking on and on...please reply.

[ycchen]

Could you share the "document" that suggest that the programs were illegal?

If you read the lawsuits at the download site, you will understand that "selling" sometime will not protect you from lawsuit at all.

Of course, the person who sold you the script lie to you about the legality of the program. That's how the "chain reaction" of pyramid-doubler works. You need supplier of scripts, the greedy owners (who might or might not know what they are doing), the season speculators, the innocent newbies, the spam email system, the irresponsible auction sites ..etc. It takes an whole INDUSTRY to get this type of pyramid scheme off the ground, and unfortunately, you have been recruited into the scam networks.

How much money are we talking about here? If you can convince your pay processor that you are refunding your customers, they might agree to let you use the money to do JUST that. Then, you probably won't have to drop out of the college to refund everyone.

[PleaseHelp]

I'm not going to drop out of college to refund people. College is the only thing positive going on in my life right now.
The most anybody lost with my doubler was $100 but I thought I compensated that well with logos created by my staff. My website also displays "Do NOT invest into this if you are solely looking to make money. Not everybody makes money!" along with some other conditions.
My payment processor has pathetic. I have contacted them over 3 times and each time they say "expect a call within 24 hours." Over a month later, i'm still waiting for that very call!

[mercinary]

PleaseHelp,

Once again, none of us are lawyers, but we can give our opinions....

One thing that you keep bringing up is the warnings posted on your website. In my opinion, that won't do you any good in a court. If you ran an illegal website, then that is the bottom line (irregardless of what you warned the customer about). It is the action of selling a chance to win something else which ultimately will be the illegal action.

My opinion still stands....you need to refund your customers, even if it means $10 per customer every 6 months until every last one if paid off.

As far as your website costs....you need to start a geocities (or some other free host) page. Do not migrate the illegal scheme over to free server, make a simple webpage or two that describe your situation. Then, remove your website, and make a place-holder on that page to point at the free site. This way, before your original site's hosting period runs out, people will get a chance to be re-directed.

This is the one exception:

Do not move the site unless you have the capability to email all of your customers to tell them what is going on.

If you up and close you original site, open up a free account, but leave no record of where you went, or what is going on.....then you are going to have lawsuits on your hands.

In any event.....if you have any questions, feel free to post them.

-Merc

[jokach]

Merc makes some good points and it sounds that as this thread progresses, the feelings you had of being scared are not as noticable. You mention that at most each person lost a $100, but to you it seems like a $100 is alot of money, and i'm sure to them, they feel the same way. You promised them something, and didn't hold up your end of the bargain, they will have reason to be angry if you just disappear.

Additionally, just because you posted warnings on your website about this or that, it means nothing in the bigger picture. Take a look at tobacco companies, they put warning messages on cigarette packs and people still sue them and get large settlements, remember that its not a scapegoat just because you gave out a warning.

Do the honorable thing, communicate with your customers, they'll feel better about you and you'll feel better about yourself. This type of thing doesn't go away, because if the people were looking to make quick money in the first place, and didn't, it obviously means they don't have the $100 to lose.

[mercinary]

it obviously means they don't have the $100 to lose.


Jokach nailed this right on the head. A lot of people trying to "Get rich quick" or (as in the case with the matrix scam) want to get their hands on electonics for cheap, probably means that they cannot afford these things to start! This is what is so incredibly sad about these things....

-Merc

[sisco50]

"I have to disagree about going after the person who sold the script. I'm drawing a blank on the legal term for it, but its like a drug user suing a drug dealer for ripping them off. Courts don't stand for that, and they look at it as if you were involved in something that is questionable, if you get ripped off, its your own fault ......."

Why is it that an owner getting ripped off is their own fault, but when a player/consumer gets ripped off it is isn't? In this case both entities claim to not know that there was anything wrong with the program, but the owner is at fault for not knowing while the consumer is not at fault for not knowing. This sounds like a gross contradiction to me. Am I missing something here?

[mercinary]

I agree with what Jokach is trying to say here. On the other hand, I understand how this might seem like a lousy point of view to you sisco50.

When PleaseHelp started this venture, he/she should have done some research (or contacted a business lawyer). Certainly the party who sold him teh script has some fault in this, but no judge will likely find that person liable for all damages caused by those who bought his/her script. It is each individual's responsibility to uphold the law. PleaseHelp took the word of teh person selling the script, which doesn't remove legal fault from PleaseHelp.

For example: Pretend you don't know that it is illegal to shoot someone Sisco50. Now, I sell you a handgun with instructions on how to shoot someone. You shoot someone. Am I mire likely to be held liable or are you? An extreme example, but a good example nonetheless.

-Merc

[sisco50]

I guess I can understand your extreme analogy. lol No problem there. But in the case of the seller and consumer, the seller WAS the consumer when he bought the script. But he is treated differently than the consumer that bought into the program. This is where I run into a problem. Is not a consumer a person buying from a seller? If one consumer is at fault then why is the other consumer not at fault? Actually all sellers are also consumers. They purchase products for resale. If one of those products are defective, the manufacturer usually bears the cost of reimbursement and the seller is not at fault. This same seller that was a consumer in the beginning.

Anyway, just food for thought. As if you guys didn't have enough to do already. lol

[mercinary]

Yeah. I see what you are saying, and I'm certainly not removing any guilt from the person who sold PleaseHelp the scripts. PleaseHelp could probably try to file a seperate civil suit altogether against that person. I'm no attorney, so I don't know how much of a case he has.

-Merc

[jokach]

Maybe I should clarify a bit since maybe I overstated myself.

The person who sold the script is at fault for selling something that is potentially illegal, and the person who bought the script has every to go after this person, I don't want to get away from this point, but I don't think in this specific case, going after the person that wrote the script is the answer to this specific problem. PleaseHelp is looking for a way out of the doubler that he started, and that means refunding money and contacting his customers and coming clean and honest with them. I think the script writer should be confronted and put in their place as well as secondary, because they promote a program that is fraudulent by providing a means to scam people, this is 100% wrong!

Maybe my analogy was flawed, sorry for the misunderstanding .... :cool:


jokach

[PleaseHelp]

Merc makes some good points and it sounds that as this thread progresses, the feelings you had of being scared are not as noticable. You mention that at most each person lost a $100, but to you it seems like a $100 is alot of money, and i'm sure to them, they feel the same way. You promised them something, and didn't hold up your end of the bargain, they will have reason to be angry if you just disappear.

Thanks for the replies everybody.
I honestly did not promise members anything. My only "promise" (which isn't really a promise) was: "Buy a logo or e-book and have a chance to get that logo or e-book for free in our bonus doubler! Remember, not everybody "wins" in our doubler. Do not look at this as an investment opportunity." The website does not say "invest $10 and win $20" or something around those lines like most other doubler sites suggest. I also told members to look at the Terms and Conditions before they registered and purchased (would be hard to miss this, its in bold and big letters on the top of the page).

I also didn't advertise my program to the public, I advertised it to people who have participated in these things before (if it makes a difference? I think so, at least a little).

Everyone who I have spoken to about these programs said they are completely legal as long as they offer a product.


Edit: You guys keep saying this is illegal. Is there any evidence of past websites who offered a solid product being sued for this? I know pyramid schemes are illegal, but is it illegal to offer clients a chance to get their product for free?

[jokach]

The website does not say "invest $10 and win $20" or something around those lines like most other doubler sites suggest.


Your site might not say that, but the term doubler makes me think that if I put $25 dollars in, it will double to $50, right? I think just the name itself gives a false impression and if this isn't what you are doing, why call it a doubler? Just curious.

I think in order to be able to compare your site to other sites that we discuess, we'd need to see exactly what your site says to the consumer, any chance you'll tell us what doubler you represent and what your URL is?

[PleaseHelp]

I'd love to, but for my own safety I probably shouldn't :(

Since this is a website to report doublers to the government, I think you understand my reasoning for this.

I thought I made it pretty clear on the site, however, that not everybody makes any profit and people shouldn't purchase if they are looking to make money.

Arghh...I wish I was rich and could just refund everybody and get on with my life :(

[jokach]

Everyone who I have spoken to about these programs said they are completely legal as long as they offer a product.


Edit: You guys keep saying this is illegal. Is there any evidence of past websites who offered a solid product being sued for this? I know pyramid schemes are illegal, but is it illegal to offer clients a chance to get their product for free?


If you are confident about the legality based on 'everyone' that you spoke to, you shouldn't be reluctant to post the URL ....

I certainly hope you make the right choice in providing refunds to your customers and closing your site .... hopefully at that point you can get on with your life and leave this type of scheme behind you....

Good Luck! :)

[ycchen]

1. Go to the download section to read the lawsuits. All the scam owners sell something, but it does NOT mean that they are NOT running a pyramid/ponzi scheme. Almost all pyramid scheme sells sometime in ridiculous price. This is a STANDARD way of how pyramid scheme works. And if someone told you that simply by "selling something", you are safe, then that person is lying. Period.

2. Yes, I think you can go after the person who sold you the script because he obviously lie about the legality of the script he sold you. From my point of view, matrix and doubler are part of a scam INDUSTRY. Script provider is definitely crucial part of the scam industry and they should be proceduted if possible. I am not sure about your chance of getting that seller to refund the script you bought from him/her, you need advice from legal expert.

3. Irrespect of your true intention, you are running a pyramid/ponzi scheme and profit from it before payprocessor frozen your account. If everything goes smooth, at least 60% of the customers will never see their money again. It is just a matter of time the you have to close your site and run. That is the STANDARD story of ALL PYRAMID SCHEME that the script seller did not tell you. Otherwise, you will not buy from him/her.

You can do whatever you think is best for you, but as consumer advocate against matrix-doubler pyramid scheme, our advice is the same: learn the lesson, do not take in any more money, and refund everyone. Many have done that and now they are living a "matrix-doubler" free life :D

If you are lucky, you might have customers like AFSx and Christy1224 who know what they are taking a risk and should refuse to take refund because they always claimed to be responsible for their own action. Then, you probably only need to refund part of the customers. Unfortunately, I am worry that these "take risk and responsible" speculators are as greedy if not more greedy than the owner, they will not stand by their own principle but will fight for refund if they see a chance.

That's the problem of running a scam in the dark side, you do not have any legal protection, and some people will exploit your pyrmid system -- so call : scam the scam. (NOTE: this is different from those "scam baiter". Scam baiters are those who want to punish the scammer.) Speculators are those who "assist" the owners to scam the deceived newbies. They make money and left legal liabilities to the owner. Eventually, we will find a way to go after these speculators in the future lawsuit!!

Good luck and hope you find the best solution to your problem. :)

[MatrixWatch]

Welcome to the site, 'PleaseHelp'. :)

I just read through the responses and I think that each and every one of them are fantastic. So, I can summarize by saying that we are not attornies and so the bottom line about your fears regarding litigation would best be from an actual lawyer. I'm sure that you could find one.

You could even go to your local district attorney's office and unload your concerns and worries to him.

Now, here is what I can tell you from my own experiences in watching this sort of thing for almost two years.

Lawsuits are the result of poor communication. Do you know that there are several companies out there doing business with one another, and they have very poor contracts detailing their terms, yet they don't sue each other? The reason is because the lawsuits start showing up when they don't resolve their disputes or issues, and then the communication becomes all about 'us and them'. The lawyers are called and all of the war talk comes out. So, lawsuits are really the result of relationships that have broken down and have deteriorated.

This is the context of understanding upon which some of our members have advised you in this discussion. They are telling you to contact your customers, tell them the truth, and then work out some sort of plan to show them that you are doing the best that you can do.

This way, when your customers get upset at least they won't try to hunt you down and get you, or file a bunch of lawsuits.

It is amazing how far a little honesty and sincerety can go these days. If you have to dip in your pockets a little to close things down, then so be it. Whatever you think might enable you to put all of this trouble behind you is a good move for now.

I've actually seen ex-scammers take this approach and have zero problems. There are even scammers out there who give an appearance of this approach and it works for them too. The latter case is a bit manipulative, but hey, at least everyone can put the whole thing behind them.

It is also a good idea that you came here and poured out your heart before a couple of your customers did! That way if they do we can just refer them to this thread in the hope that you will deal with their concerns professionally. I'm sure that you will. You seem like a guy with good judgement and a good heart. You just made a mistake, and it isn't the end of the road for you.

I personally think that the chances of you getting sued are slim to none. Attornies want to take cases that will get them and their clients compensated for work invested and damages incurred. Some college kid with a couple hundred bucks doesn't fit the demographic, nor do a couple pay companies who utilize off-shore accounts to avoid litigation.

The right thing to do is to tell your customers the truth, stop running that scam site, and then try your best to make it up to the victims. If I recall correctly, you can actually allow refunds to be processed on a frozen account by sending the pay company a typed-out request. This could be a good approach for you.

If possible, it would be great if you could also donate some of your time toward helping to halt this scam! Perhaps you could post a thread in our former owners forum, informing potential victims against the dangers of these scams. This scam is relatively new, so it would also be great if you informed the members here about how these scams work, and why you think they are a scam.

If you were to inform any future government officials who may decide to come after you that you are serving the public good by using your mistake to help others, I can see how that might cause them to go easy on you. Just tell them that you helped MatrixWatch.org! :)

[PleaseHelp]

Thanks for the replies guy. I'll try to write up something later but as it is i'm busy studying.

Once again, thank you.

Warm regards!

[pillsbury09]

i wonder what happen to this guy..anyone been able to contact him about his site?

[mercinary]

Have not heard from him. I've often wondered as well. Maybe he will come back and tell us!

-Merc

[PTVroman]

I do seem to be hearing a lot "I'm selling something - it much be legal!"

Maybe y'all need to be referring more people to other scam sites, or reminding them of Karen Liddell (http://karenliddell.etee2k.net/) .

For those of you who don't know and dont' feel like clicking on the above link, Karen Liddell was one of the first people to send out the "4-reports" chain letter (later, it became 5, then 6 reports). Her name and her testimonial showed up on those lists for years. The link above tells her story, in her own words. From the above link,The past few years have been very difficult for me. I have been harrassed via e-mail, and threatening letters have been mailed to my house. Most importantly, I have been contacted by the U.S. Postal Service. First, they sent me a letter. Then, as they received more complaints, they called me. Then, they summoned me to a hearing, where I was fined for doing this.

....

This chain letter, like all chain letters which request money, is illegal. The parts about it being legal due to a "product being sold" were added by a con artist to fool people into thinking it was legal. It fooled me. And, by the number of copies of the letter I've seen with my name on it, it's fooled a lot of you, too.