"Auction Guild"

[MatrixWatch]

Have any of the eBay Watch Dogs heard of the "Auction Guild"? It seems like they are trying to do the same thing you guys are. Here is the link: www.auctionguild.com

Let us know what you find out.

[hurley9192]

Looks like great info for helping report auctions.

It seems like we've put a stranglehold on most of the current ebay activity, which is really cool.

Even the matrix sites are giving up advertising on ebay.

[peterdragin]

Here's a neat web site that might be of help, found it while i was wandering around the net looking for resources on matrix related stuff. Take a look..



http://www.intergov.org/forms/wp_crimereport.html

[tcb1969a]

Reporting us to the International Web Police. Now that is going a little to far. You are going to hurt people that are trying to make an honest living just because it is questionable to you if a Matrix is legal or not.....

[peterdragin]

I was just giving some resourses to people who feel they have been wronged by alot of the matrix sites.

I strongly dissagree wit the word "Honest" when talking about some, I said some Matrix sites. You tcb1969a sound like a Matrix website owner. I posted a reply to a post on your forum and it was deleted because it was against your narrow minded approch to the matrix sites.

Mister you guys keep complaining about the Pay processor problems and blaming this site and watchdog, I explained that is it YOUR FAULT !!! the C.C.processors droped your sites!!

When the lists started getting so long that there wasn't a chance to get a "gift" anymore . People wanted their money back and the sites said NO so people went to Paysystems & Ginix & Paypal and asked for the money back.

If the sites would have just gave back the money to who wanted it, you greedy people would have SAVED money by avoiding chargeback fees and the lists would have gotten smaller and maybe people would have signed up again, and you would still have your C.C. accounts. I don't blame anyone for your troubles but yourselfs.

[tcb1969a]

Hmm...Having a bad day Peterdragin....

Ok. Now that we are done with the propaganda can we have some truth here.

1. I am a Matrix site owner.

2. Any post you posted on a forum, I did not have removed since I own no forum.

3. The PayPal problem is your sites fault. Also PayPal uses the Matrix thing as an excuse to hold large amounts of money from Matrix sites for several months so they can earn money off of the interest. Further there is nothing in the law stating that Matrix sites are illegal. Reason being why some sites have been able to threaten PayPal with a lawsuit if they do not release there money.

4. My PayPal account has not been frozen yet, though now that I say this, I'm sure one of you will see to it that it is. Go ahead if that is your choice. Not much in there for PayPal to go thru the trouble of freezing my account.

5. Plus most Matrix sites clearly state that their customers are purchasing an item such as ebooks or such and that there rewarded by a spot on the corresponding list. No one is guaranteed to cycle nor are they guaranteed a refund if they do not cycle. So those sites who do not refund there customers are fully within there right to do so.

6. Further stop Assuming. Hasn't anyone ever taught you what happens when you assume.

[peterdragin]

No I am having a GREAT day !!

1# I knew that a long time ago.

2# I knew that. It's just funny that out of 78 members on that forum only 8 members do all the posting. and 4 of them are Admin. (all of which own Matrix sites but one) Even MatrixEmpire/MatrixNine owner stopped posting, must be hideing in the woods of upper Mich.

3# The Paypal problem is in most part the Matrix sites fault.
(see my previous post).

4# I could care less about your Paypal account. (you will do that in all by yourself).

5# Ebooks are of NO VALUE ! so you are just selling the "gift"
How can anyone call the ebook a product? Can you ride it, can you sit in it, can you give it to your kids as a toy, Nope before you can do anything with it you have to print it on your own printer, then you can hold it, then you can sit on it, or you can throw it away it isn't worth anything anyway.

A product that costs the site owner nothing, hence NO VALUE !!
( ponzi scheme) You site owners are under the delusion that you have a product, nope all your selling is a spot on a Matrix ! (ponzi scheme)

6# Nope ! I guess not. Anybody taught you ?

[tcb1969a]

Yes actually someone did teach me about assuming for which I never do.

Let's set things straight. Ebooks are of value. Just as any informational book you purchase to learn from. Just because you say it isn't valuable does not mean it isn't. There are actually sites out there that do sell ebooks that have nothing to do with Matrix sites. I stumbled upon them by accident awhile back. Once I clear my schedule I will locate those sites and post it here.

Also, I don't just sell ebooks, I also sell desktop wallpaper that I have created. For which I can put a price tag on, since it is my work of art. Of course I know you will say that people can get there own desktop wallpaper from free sites so why mine. Because mine is not the everyday ordinary type. Plus there are plenty of sites that sell desktop wallpaper as well.

Also it is not a ponzi scheme...So please quit referring to it as one. Just out of curiosity have you really read what a ponzi scheme is and actually fully understood it......

[peterdragin]

I just don't understand how you can say Ebooks have any value.
Sure I have seen the sites that sell them, but I have seen more that give them away, Most of the sites that sell them are selling electronic copys of real books, not just some copy and paste job somebody compiles off the net, which is what the Matrix world thinks is a product. Have you even looked at the ebooks you sell ?? (a bunch of copy and paste)

Wallpaper is neat , I do alot of that myself, I post it on the newsgroups for free. I do all mine with Bryce5 and Adobe 7. I also do a lot of Celeb. fakes that I post on newsgroups. Wallpaper is worth more than the Ebooks. But still falls into the same category as the Ebook.

Yup! read all about a ponzi scam, Matrix sites fit it like a glove.
Not the O.J. glove either !!

**Just another little note**
I enjoy a good debate, but on the matrix-net forum this would have been deleted a long time ago.

But on an open forum like this anybody can speak up without any fear of being deleted. (If anybody gets to using foul language it will get deleted but not the whole post, and the poster will be told.)

You make a point and I make a counter point, don't ya just love it..

[Arzel]

tcb,

Whether or not ebooks, wallpaper, or anything else that matrix sites sell have any value is mostly irrelevant. If more than 5% of your customers actually visited your site with the intent of buying the wallpaper only to find out that they could get a "free" gift at the same time I would be very surprised.

The FTC makes it quite clear that the selling of a token item in a Ponzi scheme does not make it legal. And the more research I do, the more I am coming to realize that all of these matrix sites are ponzi schemes.

It does not matter if your customers read the TOS and fully understand that they are taking a huge gamble (although I do not think that most do understand) if the whole process is ruled a ponzi scheme the TOS won't mean anything.

[tcb1969a]

Point taken.....peterdragin

Also there is nothing I can do concerning posts being deleted on other forums. Also most Matrix Owners can't do anything about that as well. So stop holding us accountable for the independent forum sites that do.

[peterdragin]

Hey Arzel ! Ya missed a good debate with tcb1969a ..

Wish you would have been around when this was going on so you could have joined in..

watchdog would have enjoyed it also..

[MatrixWatch]

"Tcb1969a" is trying his best on this. I have already argued with him about some of these points on the other forums, but for the sake of this thread, I will share some of my answers here.

As far as "harming" matrix customers by having them kicked of eBay is concerned, this is pure spin. First, those people will never cycle even if eBay did allow them to auction. Second, it was eBay's idea to prohibit matrix auctions, not ours. We are helping eBay enforce their rules. Why? Because we are preventing the harm done to NEW people who might join the lists.

Regarding the PayPal accusations. I have already posted a thread on this forum entitled "PayPal was already freezing accounts back then". The point that I make is that PayPal was freezing accounts before we came along. How? It was the disgruntled matrix customers who went to PayPal for refunds and PayPal, like eBay, decided to make a policy against the matrix sites. If any member of my site goes to PayPal and reports a matrix site using their accounts, that member is only helping PayPal enforce a rule that they made before Matrix Watch entered the ball game.

Now, you are correct that there is no law saying "Matrix sites are illegal". There are many State laws against illegal lotteries though. This is the most important point that I have thrown at the matrix sites. No matrix-site owner has been able to refute this point, and that is why I am so confident that my case will win. An illegal lottery is where you have a prize incentive, but you make the people buy something to be "in the running" for that prize. For a matrix site to be legal, they need to offer the entry into the matrix for free, without buying ebooks, wallpaper, kitchen knives, etc. If you do not offer the entry for free, and CLEARLY state that, you are in danger of being an illegal lottery. In other words, matrix sites cannot be run to follow lottery laws and still make money. We really lucked out because many of the major pay companies are based in California, and because of this the pay companies are accountable to the State laws regarding illegal lotteries that they might aid and abet. If my case wins, those pay companies have to give the paying customers their money back. Why are they freezing funds? You figure it out, and then tell me my case will not be taken seriously.

I could care less about your Terms of Service (TOS) because you cannot hide behind fine print and blame any problems on the customers' lack of research. I could also care less about your guarantees, because the sites are in trouble either way. A matrix site has two choices. They could either say:
-You will receive your gift WHEN you cycle (fraud)
-You will receive your gift IF you cycle (chance/lottery)
Either way they are boxed in.

Finally, there are matrix sites who were wise enough to get some legal adivice with this. Do you know what they subsequently did? They shut down and refunded their customer's money.

[Arzel]

Hey Peterdragin,

Yeah, I figured there would be a good debate. I was building a new ceder fence on my patio. Hope you all are having a nice 4th.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
"Tcb1969a" is trying his best on this. I have already argued with him about some of these points on the other forums, but for the sake of this thread, I will share some of my answers here.

As far as "harming" matrix customers by having them kicked of eBay is concerned, this is pure spin. First, those people will never cycle even if eBay did allow them to auction. Second, it was eBay's idea to prohibit matrix auctions, not ours. We are helping eBay enforce their rules. Why? Because we are preventing the harm done to NEW people who might join the lists.

Regarding the PayPal accusations. I have already posted a thread on this forum entitled "PayPal was already freezing accounts back then". The point that I make is that PayPal was freezing accounts before we came along. How? It was the disgruntled matrix customers who went to PayPal for refunds and PayPal, like eBay, decided to make a policy against the matrix sites. If any member of my site goes to PayPal and reports a matrix site using their accounts, that member is only helping PayPal enforce a rule that they made before Matrix Watch entered the ball game.

Now, you are correct that there is no law saying "Matrix sites are illegal". There are many State laws against illegal lotteries though. This is the most important point that I have thrown at the matrix sites. No matrix-site owner has been able to refute this point, and that is why I am so confident that my case will win. An illegal lottery is where you have a prize incentive, but you make the people buy something to be "in the running" for that prize. For a matrix site to be legal, they need to offer the entry into the matrix for free, without buying ebooks, wallpaper, kitchen knives, etc. If you do not offer the entry for free, and CLEARLY state that, you are in danger of being an illegal lottery. In other words, matrix sites cannot be run to follow lottery laws and still make money. We really lucked out because many of the major pay companies are based in California, and because of this the pay companies are accountable to the State laws regarding illegal lotteries that they might aid and abet. If my case wins, those pay companies have to give the paying customers their money back. Why are they freezing funds? You figure it out, and then tell me my case will not be taken seriously.

I could care less about your Terms of Service (TOS) because you cannot hide behind fine print and blame any problems on the customers' lack of research. I could also care less about your guarantees, because the sites are in trouble either way. A matrix site has two choices. They could either say:
-You will receive your gift WHEN you cycle (fraud)
-You will receive your gift IF you cycle (chance/lottery)
Either way they are boxed in.

Finally, there are matrix sites who were wise enough to get some legal adivice with this. Do you know what they subsequently did? They shut down and refunded their customer's money.

Interesting Watch Dog, but I have already refuted most of what you have said here. Of course I am going to a 4th of July party, would love to reiterate my point though it probably would not do any good. So you all have a good 4th of July.....

[tcb1969a]

Ok....I am back so let me comment on something wrote earlier.....

"First, those people will never cycle even if eBay did allow them to auction."

You do not know this for sure Watch Dog, so why do you make comments like this. Some of these people that are customers that list auctions on ebay, are on short lists and do eventually cycle. I know because I use to list auctions on sites that I was on which were short lists. And I wound up cycling....So this is not spin, which coincidently goes on to much on this site. I do not practice spin and yes I know what it is.

"I have already posted a thread on this forum entitled "PayPal was already freezing accounts back then". The point that I make is that PayPal was freezing accounts before we came along."

Concerning this point, Watch Dog, I have already agreed that PayPal was freezing accounts before, but I would like to reiterate that the recent PayPal freezings have occured because of your members...

Also concerning your lottery statement, it's not a lottery, and I do not understand why you keep referencing Matrix sites as such. They are 2 totally different things....

[Arzel]

A matirx is a lottery, as defined by the state of California. Altough you may not believe this right now it is true. Watchdog is correct. If you do not believe so, please research the laws regarding such in the California Penal Codes.

[tcb1969a]

So in the California law it specifically states that a Matrix is a lottery....? I don't think so.

In fact isn't that what the lawsuit is suppose to clarify anyways...Whether or not a Matrix is legal or not....

[MysticX23]

yea, would you mind tell me where it states that a matrix is a lottery? i don't see it..

and since this is the "ebay Watch Dogs" section, i'd just like to say that ebay i doubt ever helped the matrix sites that much. What it turned into was making money outta nothing. People paid 5-50 dollars for a few links and it was good, fast, easy money. Many of the ones I sold, the people who bought them never got into a matrix site as far as i kno. Only like 1 or 2 out of 50 or so...it was just a fun way to make money everyday. Got shut down tho by one of you, but its all good...some extra money in my pocket won't hurt. anyways, advertisements on newspapers help..i've advertised in my school by just printing a whole **** load of ads and posting it everywhere. ebay i doubt hurt matrix sites that much, just less money for ebay "web links" sellers..heh

[peterdragin]

Well by looking at your Ebay feedback going back to the first of April you only show 4 sales for matrix info??

Where did the rest go you say you sold on ebay ????

If it was not hurting them I don't think you would be downplaying it.


Just my opinion tho.

[MysticX23]

most of the buyers didn't leave feedback i guess...but i have most of the auction numbers recorded as well as the amount (cuz i liked to document how much money i made, heh)..anyways, i'm not downplaying it..i'm just giving my opinion/experience

[hurley9192]

rsient.com was adding about 300 people per month until the beginning of June, which is when the ebay watch dogs started getting the auctions cancelled...since then, they only cycled about 5 people total and the website closed down because no one was joining.

Over a 2 week period, there were over 100 auctions going on ebay for just that site and when they went away, so did the site.

[MysticX23]

hrm..interesting, may affect more than i thought.

[MatrixWatch]

Mystic,
I had to edit your post above. Don't use profanity here on the forums at all.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by hurley9192
rsient.com was adding about 300 people per month until the beginning of June, which is when the ebay watch dogs started getting the auctions cancelled...since then, they only cycled about 5 people total and the website closed down because no one was joining.

Over a 2 week period, there were over 100 auctions going on ebay for just that site and when they went away, so did the site.


I chalk that up to coincidence.........

[hurley9192]

whatever...you can think what you want, but I got what I wanted, rsient.com to shut down.

I had over 40 people email me and thank me for letting them know the situation and a bunch got back their $45 as well. Not a single person that joined that list after 4/1/03 cycled and there were people into the middle of June that were still selling the info thinking that they were cycling.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by watchdog
Mystic,
I had to edit your post above. Don't use profanity here on the forums at all.

whoops. sorry bout that.