YMMSS or emoneynews.com [Archive]

ycchen

December 31st, 2004, 10:28 PM

The CEO of YMMSS response to critics. So, the magic word for YMMSS success is "advertisement income" that keep the doubler rolling. Dreamer, could you do us a favor and find out which companies pay Kim Inman for their advertisement? or they are company secret. LOL...

YMMSS is a doubler scam, an international one, similar to PIPS. (I know sisco50 will not agree with me :))

YMMSS Critics by Kim Inman

As with all successful people or businesses, YMMSS has attracted copycats and critics. There are some websites out on the Internet that don't like what we are doing with YMMSS. Here are two of the sites.

http://doublemania.com/ - Does not mention YMMSS, but does mention eMoneyNews which markets YMMSS, but then offers copycats sites that he has joined or created.

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm - I believe this gentleman believes what he says or at least he tries to convince the reader that he believes what he is presenting.

Just like anyone, they are entitled to their opinion, even if they are wrong. They do not bring up anything new that I had not heard when we first started YMMSS. The questions were? What are you going to do when you have to pay out $10,000 a day? Then when we passed that it was the same question except the figure went higher each time we exceeded it. The answer is that we will pay it and we have paid it this year at the tune of over $20,000,000. Then there are the ones that said that YMMSS would never last 6 months. Then after we exceed it, they said it would never make a year. OK then, but it will never make two years? Guess what? We have and we will continue to prove them wrong.

Some websites state that they would love to be proven wrong and we will gladly accommodate them and do just that. In fact, we are proving them wrong each day. What they see as a bad business model, I see as a mission. The part that I want to generate additional income sources while we are building our membership is my choice, using my profits. That way, the membership's commission is never at risk. Besides this is my business model and not theirs.

My business model includes creating additional income sources.

How many business units and subsidiaries do Fortune 500 Companies have? Each has many in order to protect their bottom line. If they didn't then they would not be in a position to react to market changes and thus their profit and their business would suffer.

I manage the business. I do what is necessary to keep the cycle times at the 60 to 90 day level as long as it is legal, moral, and ethical. Why do I do this? Because I'm driven to make a difference in people's lives by helping them to help themselves and it makes good business. Not only that, but we are just getting started. I want YMMSS to generate income for the benefit of every one of our members.

We all know that you cannot charge premium dollars for advertising to a small group of people. We do have retail sales, but not yet at the level that I want. So, while we are building our membership, it makes good business sense to create additional income flows that feed the commission's payable account.

I've had economists and college professors call me and point out the model (their understanding of YMMSS) would never work. After I talk to them and explain how YMMSS actually works, then they have a change of heart and agree that it will work.

Some websites state that they have been in programs such as YMMSS and I want you to understand that is just a gross generalization. There has never been a program like YMMSS on or off the Internet. I don't see how critics can state that they have been in ones just like YMMSS that had failed unless of course they are talking about the so called copycats in which no one has successfully copied our business model because they just don't know what it is.

Some websites state that we need to set a limit on income. I don't believe that at all. Here's why? If a person has reached a limit, and they want to make additional purchases they would simple put new purchases under their wife's or children's name, if they were truly greedy? How could you control that? He or she would just setup a new StormPay or IntGold account. Of course there are Social Security Numbers, but that is only good for US members and that would not stop them for registering family members and friends. Next question would be, why would you want to do that? A dollar in the system has got to be better than a dollar out of the system.

Another point is this "huge income". Let's say someone creates a $10,000,000 income. What is the difference between that and 10 people making $1,000,000 or 100 people making $100,000 or 1,000 people making $10,000? There is no difference. By the way, McDonalds® does pay for someone to eat their hamburgers. It is called "advertising"! They just don't have our commission structure.

Here are a couple examples of what advertisers pay so you will buy their product.

* One Subway® sandwich advertising campaign
TV advertising - $45,000,000 Full page advertisement in a Florida Sunday Newspaper - $40,000
*

For a very long time, I have said that I want 100,000 members making $100,000 which is an economic unit of $10,000,000,000.

What advertiser would not want to advertise to that group, when the group knows that it is in their own interest to support the advertiser because the advertisers fees help pay the members income? Don't you think if the advertiser gets the response they want, they will be back to advertise more?

So when you review these websites, please ask yourself; "What is their motive for criticizing YMMSS?" Are they truly trying to protect you or are they trying to get you in their program? Remember that there are still people out there that go by the belief that when you cannot compete, you attack or cast aspersions.

Look, we all know there is a huge amount of misleading and outright fraudulent material on the internet. We resent the criticism we have received, but if our continued success is the price we must pay for such criticism, then we must be doing something right.

Sincerely,
Kim

Dreamer

January 1st, 2005, 08:34 AM

sure, I'll get right on that...I'm not sure how I was volunteered for this task, but it sounds fun (in my delusional sleep deprivated current state). But I make no promises when I wake up if I can find the truth. I know it must be out there. Where is scully when you need her?

Dreamer

January 1st, 2005, 09:05 AM

First things first. I really have no more clue after reading this dribble than I had before. However, lets look at the numbers and generalizations:

* One Subway® sandwich advertising campaign
TV advertising - $45,000,000 Full page advertisement in a Florida Sunday Newspaper - $40,000

What does an advertising campaign exactly mean? The cost of producing the commercial, the costs to the marketing departments, and airtime, newspaper time. What is Cokes advertising campaign cost? I still dont' know what that means.

From start to end, you can place a 30 second commercial on the superbowl for less than $5million. Make it really good or really bad and get free publicitity from newspapers, news shows, whatever.

Ok, I'm getting a headache thinking about this. The fact is, advertising budgets are usually considered in a percentage of sales as opposed to a dollar amount. So, Subway may put aside .01% of all sales for an advertising budget. So, that silly number of $45,000,000 means nothing to me, but it might mean something to an advertising student at a junior college who found that number impressive in the back of their textbook. Its useless.

But, even the fundamental aspects of advertising is its so pinpoint accurate to the demograph they are advertising to. Is a group of people that want to get rich quick the type of consumer ANY business would go after? Is email the way any business conducts business? What exactly is a safelist?

Well, the truth of the matter is a company that has spent $45million on advertising in one campaign (to use their general terms) is not going to hand over $50 to a silly website just to have a safelist. Thats just stupid.

I can take $1,000 and buy a list of names or email addresses for people who buy stuff via email. Its not a safe list, but I would be buying lists of people who are more likely to respond to my inquiry and to make a sale. There is so focused marketing out there that anybody can pay some money to say "I want a list of people who might be interested in my products. I want them to be living within 20 miles of the ocean, be middleupperclass white family with adopted non-white children and drive a sportscar". There are lists out there that specific and more so, and if I was a small fry guy that would be the list I would tackle, not a "safelist".

Safelist? These are people who want to make alot of money by not doing anything? Why would they buy my product?

But the convential ways of advertising is the best. TV spots. Radio Spots, Magazines, maybe newspapers. Why the internet? WEll, they need an internet presence now adays. So, why align themselves with a get rich quick scam? That can ruin a company. They can put up their own site and concentrate their money on advertising with google or other methods. Even so, advertising on the net is just plain stupid.

Advertising agencies are just that. Advertising agencies. They don't care about anybody making any money. Give them money, and they'll do your advertising. Sure, they'll try to do a hell of a job to get your return business, but the truth is they don't care if you make a penny off of the advertising, because their point is to advertise.

So, how can this scam try to align themselves with advertising companies? Isn't this scam about making money?

But, I like how he ends this note. In any gramatically correct essay the first and the last paragraphs are the most crucial, and the first sentence is the most important. Here is the first sentence for my amusement:

Look, we all know there is a huge amount of misleading and outright fraudulent material on the internet.

You said it buddy.

Dreamer

January 1st, 2005, 09:39 AM

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

So, essentially, YMMSS is guaranteeing that if you simply purchase one $320 EPC today, as long as you perform your difficult task of reading and posting ads on a regular basis, they will pay you as much as you want to make. Wait a year to start pulling your funds, and they'll be paying you over $20K/year. Be really patient and wait 5 years, you can make over $1 Billion dollars/year from just one little $320 purchase. Awesome, isn't it?

Oh, this server was under attack lately. I wonder how similiar their stories are to Gregs.

sisco50

January 1st, 2005, 09:51 AM

"YMMSS is a doubler scam, an international one, similar to PIPS. (I know sisco50 will not agree with me )"

LOL Since when has PIPS become a doubler scheme? It has been called many things by many people the past few months but never a doubler. I can't even see one similarity. A short time ago if a money making site was not a matrix it was automatically called a pyramid, ponzi, etc. I guess now if it is not a matrix it is automatically called a doubler? Come on people, get real. I have no problem calling a spade a spade. But I won't call a diamond a spade because it isn't.

Dreamer

January 1st, 2005, 09:53 AM

I don't play cards anymore cause I found out that spades are actually doublers and diamonds are actually matricies.

sisco50

January 1st, 2005, 10:22 AM

I don't play cards anymore cause I found out that spades are actually doublers and diamonds are actually matricies.

LOL I wish I could agree with you but I can't. I really believe that the various schemes out there should be called what they are and not just grouped under two catagories. (matrices and doublers) If the shoe doesn't fit, it simply can't be worn no matter how hard you work at putting it on. :)

ycchen

January 1st, 2005, 11:29 AM

sisco50, another misunderstanding. When I said YMMSS is similar to PIPS, I was talking about the "international dimension" of both schemes. Both schemes attract international investors. That's my main point.

Of course, PIPS is a more complex scheme for sure. I agree with you that PIPS is not a brainless doubler or matrix, but I am sure it is some kind of quasi-ponzi scheme. I know you are diehard supporter of PIPS, so we do not need to debate PIPS on every thread, right? :cool:

ADD: okay, I mislabel sisco50 as diehard supporter of PIPS, sorry :) He is just one of the many investors :)

sisco50

January 1st, 2005, 11:37 AM

sisco50, another misunderstanding. When I said YMMSS is similar to PIPS, I was talking about the "international dimension" of both schemes. Both schemes attract international investors. That's my main point.

Of course, PIPS is a more complex scheme for sure. I agree with you that PIPS is not a brainless doubler or matrix, but I am sure it is some kind of quasi-ponzi scheme. I know you are diehard supporter of PIPS, so we do not need to debate PIPS on every thread, right? :cool:

LOL I do not consider myself a diehard anything let alone supporter of PIPS. :) But I do agree we do not need to debate that subject in every thread. Just responding to posts as I come across them. Maybe I have too much free time on my hands recently? LOL

ycchen

January 1st, 2005, 11:48 AM

Back to the subject. Dreamer, I think Kim Inman was just using "One Subway® sandwich advertising campaign TV advertising - $45,000,000" as an example to show how lucrative advertising income could be.

I wonder if anyone could find a list of companies that actually pay YMMSS to place their advertisement, and how much? :rolleyes:

Dreamer

January 1st, 2005, 02:14 PM

That sounds like a good plan. I wonder if its possible to find that informaton out. I suppose I could invest there, but that might lead too quickly to the truth, and I don't feel like making kim any richer than he is. But, since I have nothing better to do, let me see if its possible to find any copanies who use him.

I'll be sure to post links to that effect. Just don't be mad if I don't happen to respond to this thread again with links :)

Sparkle

January 1st, 2005, 04:13 PM

Holy $hit guys. do u ever go 2 sleep?
:)

surfer

January 2nd, 2005, 10:58 AM

I wonder if anyone could find a list of companies that actually pay YMMSS to place their advertisement, and how much? :rolleyes:

Good luck, because there are no major companies paying for ads. The retail ad site has not been launched at this point. The only people buying ads are YMMSS members, and perhaps a small handful of nonmembers with small businesses.

Of course, these future retail advertisers will know nothing about the YMMSS income opportunity side of the business. Otherwise, they would obviously choose to simply buy $45,000,000.00 worth of EPCs and get their money back 60 to 90 days later. :eek:

ycchen

January 2nd, 2005, 12:52 PM

surfer, thanks for your info. Just a quick follow-up. If YMMSS does not have any significant "advertisement income", then what is Kim Inman talking about?

Without "other source of income", the only income would have to come from members, isn't it?

surfer

January 2nd, 2005, 01:01 PM

In addition to supposed revenue from sources deemed as "intellectual property" that members are not entitled to know about, Kim supposedly owns all or part of St. George's Lodge in Belize (http://www.gooddiving.com/) which is being renovated and revenue will be used to help fund the commission's payable account.

The retail advertising revenue Kim speaks of is future revenue when there are enough members earning a significant enough amount of money to be a target market for these future retail advertisers. For example, one of the goals Kim mentions is having a 100K members each earning $100K. A group with this sort of buying power would be an ideal target market for high end retail advertisers.

Sounds beautiful in theory, don't it. ;)

ycchen

January 2nd, 2005, 01:20 PM

Thanks for the feedback again.

Again, the "St. George's Lodge in Belize" stuff "will be used to help fund the commission's payable acccount", but not now. So, the only income that YMMZSS use to pay its member NOW is from the member themselves, isn't it?

surfer

January 2nd, 2005, 02:08 PM

Well, I have no clue as to what, if anything, the "intellectual properties" contribute to the pool.

Some other things that Kim may be using to fund the commissions payable accounts would be revenues from some of the old affiliate/MLM/doubler type programs that he used to advertise to the old Yahoo YMMSS safelist (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Your_Money_Machine_Success_System/) before they transitioned to online ads, the majority of which are now defunct.

A short list of at least some of the businesses he used to promote to the list are:

Dead
http://instantpaydayclub.com/cgi-bin/club/index.cgi?pqaGY1
http://guaranteedpaiddownline.com/members.php/income4you
http://www.internetmarketersclub.com/affiliates/t.php?rid=19
http://www.instantgoldrush.com/index.asp?ref=25615
http://symhost.com/goldendollar.htm

Live
http://www.richmails.com/cgi-bin/signup.cgi?r=richmail47591@yahoo.com
http://www.freewebs.com/boomer-healthy

I didn't see any other opps from him directly after the first couple of months in 2003.

Recently, he mentioned that any sales through his affiliate link to Metropipe (http://www.metropipe.net/) would also fund commissions payable. Of course, 50% of $79 isn't going to make a very big dent.

So, I have seen nothing of significance that would put any "substantial" money into the pool.

Dreamer

January 2nd, 2005, 11:31 PM

Please stayed tuned. Thats all I'm saying for now.

surfer

January 2nd, 2005, 11:37 PM

Please stayed tuned. Thats all I'm saying for now.

Ah man, that's not fair. More of a hint would be appreciated. Anything you need help with. ;)

Dreamer

January 3rd, 2005, 09:41 AM

Nope, I can handle my own complete boredom myself thank you very much. :P

Im not entirely sure that any of my findings will be of any interest to anybody, so don't get too anxious. All I gotta say is something was rather interesting. But, like my other long boring thrad I did, I'll post whatever I find, whether it be showing more and more that its a scam, or *shudder* I find something that suggests that maybe its something legit.

surfer

January 4th, 2005, 11:48 AM

Any time frame? You have my curiosity piqued. :D

Happy researching.

ycchen

January 4th, 2005, 12:52 PM

So, I have seen nothing of significance that would put any "substantial" money into the pool.

Great info, surfer, thanks. It's amazing how YMMSS could take off without "substantial other income." -- READ: ponzi scheme. The supporters and early birds really play a crucial role in getting all these ponzi or quasi-ponzi scam going. What do you think, surfer? What is the secret of "success" of YMMSS?

surfer

January 4th, 2005, 01:57 PM

All of these types of programs seem to have these "secret" sources of revenue that supposedly help keep them afloat. Talk of these sources adds credibility even though there is never any proof that any of it actually even exists.

FWIW, here's a little info on how YMMSS supposedly came about (http://www.webactionguide.com/yummy/kim-inman-ymmss.php)

I think a good part of the longevity of YMMSS comes from how so many push the "strategy" of smaller $10 and $20 EPC purchases to help support the program. So you have to wait 5 or 6 cycles before you can pull any money out, which is well over a years time. Unless that's all you can afford, this "strategy" makes absolutely no sense to me. If YMMSS were legit, they wouldn't need these little purchases for support or to help bring cycle times down.

With hundreds or thousands of people tossing in these little bits of money on a daily basis with no returns necessary for more than a year, it helps to keep things looking rosey.

Just in the last month or so, they've had over 5000 new members come on board. And I've read quite a few tales of people with as much as $20k invested not taking returns yet.

All of this helps them to appear stable, although cycle times haven't been under 90 days for over 3 months and it will be another couple months before the cycle times will supposedly come back down in a recovery from the site downtime during the new website launch and the recent SQL Server Attack.

Dreamer

January 4th, 2005, 02:30 PM

Well, thats the funny thing about it. They can operate very similiarly to a bank and nobody will know.

Lets say they have 10,000 members (they have more). And, lets say the average person invested $100. Thats $1 million dollars in their bank that they have (I'm sure its much larger).

Within 90 days, everybody cycles. So,thats $2million that the business owes and only has $1million available. Well, so long as the amount of people who requests the withdawel is less than $1million, they can continue with the con.

Another 90 days pass. They still haven't gotten any new members, but they cycle everybody anyways. Now they owe $4million. Another 90 days they owe $8million. They can continue to operate like this until people start requesting withdrawels exceeding $1million total. Will that happen? Probably not.

But I guess I'm preaching to the choir here. We all know how ponzi schemes work.

Dreamer

January 10th, 2005, 09:50 AM

My deadline is monday, so unless anything changes, be prepared to be bored with my findings within 24 hours. However, as being that I'm after the truth, Im not going to jeoparadize my results by forming a conclusion before hand. Of course, anything I might post tomorrow, if something changes the results, I'll be happy to post it later.

surfer

January 11th, 2005, 07:08 PM

Dreamer

January 12th, 2005, 04:00 AM

As a interested business, I contacted ymmss because I heard that they do advertising.

Created On: 01 Jan 2005 03:05 PM
Hello,

I am a small business owner in southern california. We have started to bring our business online via eBay and starting to develop a website. Somebody recommended this site as a potential place to advertise, so I have a few questions.

1. What are your advertising rates?
2. What type of advertising can you do for me?
3. How many hits can you guarantee?
4. What companies have used used you for advertising?
5. Can you provide me a sample of how you advertise?

As I said, we are just a small business, So I can't afford expensive tv spots. But, since we are starting to do business online, I figure I should look into online marketing and advertising.

Thanks

Shortly after, I recieved an automated response from the site. I am only posting this because it IS an automated response.

Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:05:14 GMT
Your ticket has been submitted to our General department, one of the staff
members will review it and reply accordingly. PLEASE NOTE: if this is a commission,
EPC change, and/or a payment system change, please be patient with a reply as
we are receiving hundreds of these type requests per day and our response time
is now 3-4 days out. Please also keep in mind that we request a minimum of 7
days advance notice against the estimated commission date to make the change, or
we do not guarantee the change to be done.

Next, I got a reply from their help desk. Again, No worries about posting it.

Sat, 1 Jan 2005 20:10:54 GMT
Happy New Year. I have forwarded your questions to Kim and he will respond to
you as soon as possible.
xxxxx - YMMSS Help Staff

Ok. That was quick. I'll give them that.

I never did hear from kim. I guess he was too busy, but I got this response from a tampabay.rr.com address. This looks like its a brighthouse networks page. If somebody knows anything about this site, than post it. Stripping of the tampabay gets me rr.com, which is road runner high speed online.

So, I was told that they are passing my message to kim, I get somebody who iisnt kim. I'm stuck with a fee email address (I presume) to a housing type site. This is when I'm no longer impressed. The thing is, they are a big company that has paid out over $50million dollars and yet the person in charge of advertising doesnt even have a real email address, just a throwaway one?

Wow, I didnt know YMMSS was based out of Belize. Its posted on their website, but anybody know how to collect your money from belize when they close down?

Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:01:41 -0500 (EST)
Shaun,
Thank you for your inquiry we look forward to assisting you in growing your business. We want to complement you on your wisdom in knowing the value of online advertising to grow your soon to be - - - Large Business!!!
We have an extremely responsive group of members that regularly purchase Products and services and we are confident that we will form a long lasting business relationship as you experience our growth with us with our Proprietary prospecting and Advertising System.
Before I am able to give you a quality answer to your very important questions about our rates, type of advertising, number of guaranteed hits,
Our rapidly growing number of companies, as well as samples, I need some information about your expectations and company to give you the level of service you want and deserve.

1. What is your product and or service? -
2. What is your price structure?
3. Do you have an expectation in terms of ROI? (Return On Investment?)
As soon as you respond we will reply ASAP because we are excited about watching you grow and becoming another prosperous advertiser!

A few things about this email. It was sent off rather quickly. Thats a good sign. Their last 3 numbered items to me (what is your product etc) was set up in a dfferent font, which appears to be the same font as their closing saluatation. So, I think that part was just part of a signature. Not sure.

On Date: 01/03/05 08:37:49 I sent him off a response breifly describing my business and how we advertised before.

I next heard from him a few days later:

Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:05:34 -0500 (EST)
Shaun,
Did you receive my e mail?
Please advise

In which case I responded on Date: 01/04/05 07:07:00 and he responded:

Tue, 04 Jan 2005 05:21:22 -0800
Shun,
Sorry it was under a different name I did not associate it.
I have it now and will get back to you shortly.

Whats interesting about this email is his creative way of spelling my name. I've learned that if your doing business with somebody, even if it is a very complicated name, pronouncing their name right is a good thing, or if its written communications spelling it right is a god thing. I'll forgive typos in messages, but its unforgavable in names.

Next we go back to using the same subject line: RE: Retail Advertising with S. What exactly is "S" anyways? I don't understand that.

His response:

Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:48:55 -0500 (EST)
Do you have a web site now?, with pictures Etc?
When we advertise for you, would you mind giving me a sample of an ad you'd like to run?
Also do you want us to create the ad or are you going to do that? Based on what you said I assume you are going to create your own however we may be able to assist you in doing it just depends on what your expectations are we always want to operate in high honest integrity and with the assumption we are building a long lasting relationship.
I want to make sure our Company gives you the biggest bang for your buck so please bare with me on the questions.
We have many different way to deliver you (So to speak) to an audience we just want to make sure we do it right every time because you are exactly right people save things for later online more than off line because it is so much easier to do!

I responded, than responded again on Date: 01/06/05 07:26:27 asking if they received my last response.

Reading over his response looks like I should post my response to him.

Tue, 04 Jan 2005 10:20:47 PST
Our website is down for revamping until I can streamline our retail location
with our online sales and our ebay auctions and our advertising. Probably by
next week I will start taking more professional looking pictures for our
website, just as soon as I get an idea of how I want the site to look so I can
integrate everything.

Did I say baseball holds? I meant baseball holders. Our main supplier for our
supplies is ultrapro. To check out some of their picutes to see what I'm
talking about goto: http://ultrapro.com/page.php?pname=sports/holders

You asked about creating an ad. I wouldn't mind paying a little extra more to
have one professionally made. But, before I answer that, can you provide me
links to other advertising you've done for other businesses, and what types of
advertising you can do for me? There is one thing I refuse to do is email
spam. But, I'm open to any other types of advertising.

Oh, and yes, once we start this project, I'll be happy to ship you over a
sample box of the types of items we carry.

Thanks

And here was his final reply to me:

Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:44:56 -0500 (EST)
Sorry non stop here all is good!!!
I want your money but not as much as I want a long term healthy business relationship with you.
So if you are going to spend your money with someone I will take it, and we will see what happens.
However - I would rather wait until you have your website up and running first because then everyone will see everything you have to offer and you will get a much better response.
Sometimes people on our end do not listen because the have sales quotas - we have a quota too and it's called ethical customer retention.
Again if you need a write off and just gotta spend some $$$ now we can do just as good if not better than anyone else shooting from the hip, and do not want to turn you away it's just that our team feels based on your info that putting your money into the website now and getting it done will be the best use of your resources now and pay off better in the long run as well.
David
Let me know what you think and I will reply ASAP

Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:08:31 -0800 (PST)
Thank you for your reply. My goal is to have our website up and running by
monday and to begin our advertising right away.

So, in the mean time, can you provide me your rates and give examples of
exactly what you are offering. Can you provide me with example of what other
retailers have done that as successful for them?

I am interested in building a healthy relationship with you, however, I DO need
to make sure you can deliver for me.

Thanks

An advertising company that still hasn't quoted me their prices or supplied to me any other businesses they've delt with. Isnt the purpose of a business to sell a product, in this case advertising, to the consumer? Its not the advertising firms decision to sell or not sell the space. At best, the only thing they would care about is to make sure the advertisement doesn't go against their ideals. For instance, I'm sure a vegan company wouldn't want my advertising dollar if I wanted to get the word out of our newest machine to kill cows.

I don't know. Now I'm thinking of updating this thread by finding any legit advertising firm and see if they'll quote me prices, their means of delivering my message, and what businesses they've done business with in the past.

Lets face it. If they gave out $50million in thier system and part of that was paid with outside advertising dollars, they should have no problem quickly giving me the info that I requested, because that should be a basic form letter they should deliver.

If anybody from this company wants to respond here, I'd love to hear your responce. If you want to claim that the subscribers to your system do most of the advertising, even if products are being sold, in order to make money you need outside interaction. If my family and I have a combined net worth of $100, we can sell each other stuff all we want, but the total net worth at any point will be $100 until one of us goes outside and buys something off a stranger, or sells something to somebody outside, or heaven forbid gets a job.

So, if they are unable to make a sale for somebody interested in using their service to advertise (10,000 ... I wouldn't mind paying for advertising if they all saw it) I doubt they never once considered the idea that maybe somebody would want to buy advertising.

surfer

January 12th, 2005, 09:46 AM

Interesting test Dreamer.

Perhaps it's a bit premature since their retail advertising site hasn't even been launched yet. That may explain the somewhat poor handling of your inquiry.

No matter how much they like to claim they are selling advertising, they really aren't at the moment. The people who are currently buying "advertising" right now are doing so only for the income opportunity. The advertising is an afterthought.

The true retail advertisers they are supposedly going to target are not supposed to know anything about the YMMSS business opportunity side of the equation. The future domain for the retail site may be successthroughadvertising.com which is currently owned by one of the early members, but has not been developed yet.

Dreamer

January 12th, 2005, 12:54 PM

surfer

January 13th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Well, the test showed that there isn't anybody buying real advertising thru them. Premature? No. They claim they aren't a doubler. If there is no outside income being drawn into the system, all they are is a big doubler. And, when it comes crashing down and they close shop, who will sue them in beliz?

Agreed. But honest, there's gonna be tons of retail advertising in the future. ;)

Curious to know your thoughts on Kim Inman's most recent statements about cycle times and the future?

Future of Cycle Times. 1/12/2005
12 Jan 2005 - Kim
Last edited by Kim, 12 Jan 2005
Future of Cycle Times. 1/12/2005
We have some members concerned about cycle times and I understand this. Their concern is based on not earning their first commission payment for viewing Ads. Therefore they don't have the confidence that they will be paid.

For those that have been with YMMSS and have received income, this is not as big of an issue because they have experienced commission payments. They have also experienced with fluctuating cycle days and still received commissions.

Since I started YMMSS, there have been cycle times of 90 days or less 94% of the time. That is a pretty good batting average, but it is not where I, nor any of us, want it.

Here are some causes for the increased cycle days:

1. Converting over to the new website - At least 4 days down and an additional 8 days with limited operation. Unfortunately, this was necessary to make YMMSS more efficient overall.

2. The recent downtime on the website to increase our vigilant security processes. This resulted in the recent implementation of new usernames for some, as well as password resets and new password rules.

3. Taking the site down 3 times a week for processing. That alone, causes us to lose one day a week. The IT personnel are working to get our new resource sharing servers in place. As soon as this occurs, this issue will be eliminated and processing time will not be a negative impact on the cycle.

I have implemented a plan to positively impact future cycle times. The past six months have not been easy. The above mentioned items have contributed greatly to the cycle increase. Please understand that it is going to take some time for the cycle times to come down. But down they will, as long as everyone continues to support YMMSS. YMMSS is not my business, it is "our business” and needs to be promoted as such. To be successful, all businesses put a percentage (usually 40%) of their profits back into the business.

Everyone should be doing this through purchasing more retail advertising (no commissions earned) or purchasing more EPCs which earn commissions. You can purchase retail advertising by selecting "Purchase Sponsor Ad" or you can purchase more EPCs by selecting "Purchase EPCs" after you login to the website.

We are also working on the following:

1. Configuring equipment for the new server clusters. This will allow us to operate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is priority #1 for one group of programmers.

2. Creating the Success Through Advertising Retail Website. This is priority #1 for another group of programmers.

3. Implementation of a new contract for the helpdesk that will result in much greater efficiency of responding quickly to your help requests.

4. Developing a YMMSS payment system. This system will allow you to transfer or wire funds directly to your checking account or use an optional YMMSS debit card. We have been working on this for months and an implementation date is close. IMPORTANT - You must make sure that your information is correct in your member profile. We will issue you an account and all the information must be exact. Please go into your "View/Edit Profile" after you login and make sure that your mailing address is correct.

If you use a P. O. Box, then include the address of the Post Office on the first line and your P. O. Box on the 2nd line. Your account information will be confirmed. All payments will be made through this system to ensure we are paying the right people. This will eliminate people entering the wrong IntGold, StormPay, or e-Gold information and us paying the wrong people. Details will be forthcoming, but please make sure that everything is correct in your "View/Edit Profile".

5. Creating a new Recurring Income Option that will allow those members who have achieved their income goals to voluntarily select an option that will pay them $160 and put $160 back into the commissions' payable account. This will be voluntary, but we have had a number of members that have requested this option.

6. Currently working on developing a system where television advertising can be displayed to our membership. This will allow us to pursue corporate accounts that will purchase retail advertising. This will allow them to place their current television ads directly to our membership.

7. We are working out details to allow our members to purchase online from major retail companies where the commissions' payable account receives commissions for each purchase.

8. I have hired a full time financial advisor to manage and create additional outside income sources that will be set aside to create income for the commissions' payable account.

Be assured that our staff and I are working diligently to keep YMMSS the best internet program in the world.

ANNOUNCEMENT: You can now start booking your vacation at our YMMSS Resort.

Visit our website or contact the Lodge directly for more information

www.gooddiving.com Email: info@gooddiving.com

501-220-4444

PO Box 625 Belize City, Belize
Central America

Sincerely,

Kim

Dreamer

January 13th, 2005, 07:40 PM

Well, originally it was said that the cycle will never be above 90 days. Now, they are no longer saying that. And the cycle times started to be greater than 90 days before the switch, so I can't believe #s 1 and 2. As for #3, most businesses close down a couple hours a week for upgrades. But, they chose to do that when there is the least amount of traffic, like tuesday from 2am-4am. So, I'm not going to believe that either. Just sounds like an excuse.

Now, he said he implimented a plan. What is this plan? i don't think he mentions it, does he? But, he does mention everything that failing doublers mention.

Reinvest 40% of your profits. Promote promote promote.

As for #s 1 - 8, none of them concern me, nor do they really say anything. #2 regarding a retail websie is the only thing of any substance there, and well, they should have done that 2 years ago.

My conention all along that the only reason why the goal of 100,000 members earning $100,000, so when the site gets too large, like it is now with like 12,000 members, and the cycle times are longer than the expected 90 days, that the lies will still continue.

I personally like how he responds to the cycle going over 90 days. If you believe this joker than thats your problem.

Since I started YMMSS, there have been cycle times of 90 days or less 94% of the time. That is a pretty good batting average, but it is not where I, nor any of us, want it.

In my opinion, showing the percentage suggests that on any given day, you have a 94% chance of being below 90 days. Thats not true. Because that percentage is getting lower and lower.

The reason why it wont last because just about everybody involved in doublers is already involved in that system. I don't care if he has a vision or a plan. All he is is a doubler right now. If I were to invest anymore in that site, I'd need the customer base to double before I receive anything. Will the customer base get to 25,000? I doubt it. Will we hear more and more excuses? I'm guessing so.

surfer

January 13th, 2005, 08:37 PM

Yep. Of course, since 9/27/04, the cycle time has been at or above 90 days 100% of the time and was only under 90(89 days) once in the 60 days prior to the new site launch. But that's just my "glass half empty" view of life speaking, LOL.

Of course, they are also blaming things on the bank/merchant account company for placing about $1000/day purchase limit with credit cards, claiming that they were initially told that it would be a much higher daily limit per day.

A couple of things I did find interesting were
6. Currently working on developing a system where television advertising can be displayed to our membership. This will allow us to pursue corporate accounts that will purchase retail advertising. This will allow them to place their current television ads directly to our membership.What kind of system would need to be developed to do this? I can slap videos up on my sites easily enough. LOL.

7. We are working out details to allow our members to purchase online from major retail companies where the commissions' payable account receives commissions for each purchase.Ummm, it's called affiliate marketing, just like the link YMMSS members can use to sign up for MetroPipe getting credit to the commissions payable account. Or is YMMSS going to charge major retailers to advertise on their site and then demand that they be paid commissions on member purchases as well? Which is it?

Well, Kim had to say something to the flock, as many were getting nervous. And of course, the rah rah responses on the forums come mainly from those who are already making money because they got in early enough.

Dreamer

January 13th, 2005, 10:18 PM

Or is YMMSS going to charge major retailers to advertise on their site and then demand that they be paid commissions on member purchases as well? Which is it?

Well, I tried to buy advertising spots from them. I even left it open for them to say how much it will cost me, and anything else I might have to pay.

Now, lets just pretend this doubler works up to 100,000 members earning $100k/year. If this doubler stops than and advertising budgets are used to continue to pay for the membership, they would have to sell $1billion dollars of advertising on their site. Ummm.. And they tote how the members would be the ideal clientelle to advertise to. How so? They made their money by promoting a doubler site.

When I'm advertising, I want my target audiance to have some interest in my product. Just because somebody makes alot of money doesn't make them my target audiance. So, I probably wouldn't advertise to them. Do you think they'll spend $10billion on the lot of them to make a $1billion advertising campaign work? I think 10% of the return is good for advertising since profit margins are so low. But, thats my opinion.

If a business isn't seeing a return of at least their money spent on a form of advertising, they'll drop that form.

Dreamer

January 14th, 2005, 08:04 AM

Not entirely related, but ...

http://www.quatloos.com/traps/costaric.htm

No doubt, Costa Rica is a beautiful place which abounds in opportunities and it appears to be one of the leading jurisdictions for U.S. expatriates to settle down in. Unfortunately, too many of these expatriates are expatriates because they were caught in the U.S. committing some sort of scam or fraud, or committing tax evasion. And so, it is a notoriously corrupt little country, with at least as many scammers as Belize, Antigua and Nevis.

The reason i mention this is because ymmss is out of belize. The scary thing is that they are asking for peoples ssn #s. And people are that stupid to give them away? What business is the US tax laws of theirs? They are not employing me so they don't need my SSN.

Dreamer

January 14th, 2005, 08:08 AM

Does this sound familiar?

http://www.goldhaven.com/ioi/Schemes0601.htm

Investment Club Tri-West Halts Payments After Founder's Arrest

Bloomberg - June 10, 2001

Regulators in at least twelve different jurisdictions in the US and Canada have warned investors about Tri-West Investments and its investment arm Haarlem Universal Corp. run by Alex Haarlem believed to be Alyn Richard Waage. Since Waage's arrest in Mexico with approximately US$4.5 million in checks and money orders made out to Haarlem Universal, Tri-West has suspended payments to investors. Reported in lesser known publications until recently, the story has now been picked up by the 'majors.'

SUMMARY

Tri-West Investment Club, which raised an estimated $50 million over the Internet by offering 10 percent monthly returns, halted payments to its 6,000 investors after the arrest of its founder.

Alyn Richard Waage, 55, was arrested carrying $4.5 million in cashiers checks and money orders after he landed at Puerto Vallarta on a leased Lear Jet in April, Mexican police officials told Bloomberg News. Waage was arrested along with two other men traveling with him, described as a Canadian and a former Mexican police official.

At least six states have ordered Tri-West to halt the sale of its investments to their residents over the past year, beginning with Kansas in May, 2000. Because the company operates over the Internet from Belize City, Belize, state regulators found regulating the firm's activities difficult. Tri-West halted payments to investors on May 1, following an ``unfortunate event,'' according to an ``urgent notice'' recently added to its Internet site, which doesn't mention Waage by name.

A message posted on the Tri-West Website at www.triwestinvest.com dated June 14, stated that the club is still working to have the club offices opened by July 2, 2001. There is no mention where the offices are physically located. Meanwhile payments to members have been suspended.

``The courier had to make an unscheduled layover and didn't know he had to declare checks in excess of $10,000 USD.'' The courier was Waage, said Corporal John Lovie of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Edmonton, Alberta.

Waage has been a fugitive from Canadian judicial authorities since 1998, when he jumped bail following his arrest on 30 counts of fraud related to an Edmonton mortgage scam, said Lovie, who added that Canada will seek to extradite Waage for trial.

According the Tri-West's site, ``This is a rather complicated investment vehicle, normally only available to large investors.'' Authorities refer to such operations as ``prime bank instrument'' scams.

``It's a typical prime bank Ponzi scheme,'' said Lovie, who estimated $50 million in US dollars was invested in Tri-West.

The pyramid collapses when the flow of new money is interrupted or exhausted, making it impossible to continue paying investors.

Dreamer

January 14th, 2005, 10:49 AM

http://www.ymhelp.com/?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=38&PHPSESSID=5aaf859471af807af2b090e04d67ae53

You are considered an independent business owner and are not employed
by Your Money Machine Success System or Success Through Advertising, LLC.

Than why do they need SSN #s?

You understand and agree that all sales are final and there are no
refunds available since your purchase is immediately used to pay commission
to other members.

And thats not ponzi?

Dreamer

January 14th, 2005, 12:17 PM

Well, I wasted a few hours in the chatroom today. Here is what I found. Of course these are just opinions from the moderator, so I won't hold anybody accountable.

He suggested that 90% of the moneys paid out was from new members. However, when I threw around the word ponzi, he wanted to ask me to leave. It was never adequatly challenged, except for the fact that that is how it is now, and not the future.

So, I asked how does it compare to doublers. Well, they sell epcs, doublers ebooks. Same worthless things in my opinion. And doublers are just failed copycats of ymmss. Of course it is trade secrets to tell what the difference is.

So, I asked about advertising, since thats what the goal is. To support 100k 100k, is a 10billion proposition. So, if the money is oging to come from advertisers...how much will they pay? trade secret. What do they expect their ROI be? trade secret...no, that is a hypothetical question that was refused to be answered. So, I asked if it was safe to assume that they would expect to earn at least 10billion if they spent 10billion. Not necessarily. I asked what amount of money does he think will be returned to the advertisers, wouldn't comment.

Even if its 10%, how many businesses will continue to advertise there if they spend 10million dollars and only get 1 million back? I forget how they responded when I said that mercedy benz probably has more than 100k hits on their site from people who want to buy their product. I think the main responce was companys are always looking for new ways to get their name out.

Yes, thats advertising, however, you do it smartly, not thru some off shore advertising company. So, it was argued a few times that plenty of businesses advertise and realize a loss after it just to get their name out. My response was because their are other considerations. There is no other considerations when advertising on a website.

So, I asked about the SSN # even though you are not an employee. Well, you need to do it for commissions. I don't see how reading adds are earning a commission. I'll hafta research that word. The response of a 1099 makes it sound more legimitate. Anybody have a comment about that statement?

So, I asked about what happens if kim flees the country and moves to nigeria and places relay calls (nobody got that). Well, thats that. So, I guess no hard feelings.

Than I asked...if the main purpose of this system is to try this new form of advertising, what happens when it fails. Oh well. Lots of businesses fail. Meanwhile most of the membrs are paying for the early birds. Just don't mention scam.

He got offended when I said that they aren't the target market for advertising. People who made money by not earning it. REading adds is not earning money, I'm sorry.

I likened all their testimonals and people getting paid to every scam in the beginning. Well, not all scams pay off in the beginning was the responce.

All in all, I am happy that they answered my questions, although it was piss poor. The popular responce was just invest $10 thats it. Um. No. I think they genuinely believe what they are saying, so I din't notice any means to try to scam me. I think they are just so caught up in their experiences that they dont' think that they are being strung along.

So, if anybody else asks questions in the chat room, post the responses here. If you have any more questions, I"ll ask the next time I'm there. Just remember...don't throw around the word ponzi because they can't answer that. Well, maybe that will be my next line of questioning...how is it different than a ponzi. They said that 90% of the moneys paid out was from new members. how is that not ponzi?

Oh well. Sleepy time soon.

Oh yeah, I asked about other businesses doing what they are doing, since they are so successful. Thats what people do. If joe sees bob making money selling lemonade, joe will also start selling lemonade to try to make money. Their response is we are talking about YMMSS not another business.

Oh well, I don't remember anything more.

ycchen

January 14th, 2005, 10:11 PM

Dreamer, wow, great embedded reporting from the scammer's chat room and email! Of course, to be more "professional", you should not write too many "I can't remember" on your report :cool:

I also enjoy reading your investigation on the true color of the advertisement income! surfer's feedback is also appreciated. Thanks folks. Well, it does not surprise me at all. the other sources of income are all claims , if not lies.

I also enjoy reading the Tri-West story! I just wonder what does it take to motivate an authority to go after these ponzi scams!?

It seems like an arbitrary decision on the part of the authority. May be an police officer's wife get scammed and want to revenge? :D But if the officer's wife is making profit from the scam, she will probably protect the scam than reporting it. Of course, unless the owner refuse to refund her when she "accidently" fall to the bottom of the pyramid. :D

I think the picture on YMMSS is pretty clear. Now the next challenge for you Dreamer-- another giant ponzi -- PIPS. :D I am sure when PIPS goes under, Bryan will has to flee to the moon since his PONZI is trully international, with strong Malaysia base, of course.

Dreamer

January 14th, 2005, 10:21 PM

Im still researching ymmss and that other joke thread. If they'll only come back. I'll leave pips so somebody more bored than me :)

ycchen

January 14th, 2005, 11:17 PM

Okay, Dreamer, we will be looking forward to your next "embedded report" on YMMSS. :) In the meantime, we need to "send" more embedded reporters to two other big time ponzi/pyramid scams -- Empowerism and PIPS. Any volunteers? :)

Of course, we welcome all sort of embedded reporting on ANY matrices and their relatives (doublers, HYPIES..etc). Insider's information is highly valued and appreciated on this forum. :)

Dreamer

January 15th, 2005, 07:47 AM

i should have thought of this earlier...didn't some lady offer me a free subscription to empowerism or something similiar and took back the offer since I'm such a jerk?

If these programs work, I'll be happy to post it on these threads here. I'm sure all of us want to make money. I guess the difference is though that we don't want to get scammed or scam others in our persuit of making money by reading adds or stuffing envelopes.

Its just sad to hear all these people sing the praises of the owner like they did with greg. And that was a tough group of people I thought would never crack. But slowely but surely I think people see him for who he is...only after he started running. I guess for people like kim, and others people won't care until after he runs with 100million in his pocket. Why should they? They are making money, so we should all funnel money into that system so they can continue to pay themselves

surfer

January 15th, 2005, 09:10 AM

I have no idea on the legal issues for a company based in Belize requiring the SSN for issuing 1099s to US members. I only know that I was required to get them for independent contractors that I had to hire in a previous job. Of course, the company I worked for was based in the US and would get fined by the IRS if we had incorrect SSNs for our contractors.

Unfortunately, the mindset of a lot of YMMSS members is the same as many of the typical HYIP, doubler, matrix folks. They view it as a game and could not care less about those who get screwed in the end. It doesn't matter how many thousands lose money when it folds as long as they played smart and were able to come out ahead or at least break even.

Personally, I don't care what those types do with their money. The problem I have is that these "businesses" are promoted as legitimate and long term to the uneducated newbies. The experienced ponzi players know the risks and how to play the game. Throw in your initial "spend" that you feel comfortable enough to lose, get your seed money back as quickly as possible, and then play it out until the end with the ponzi's money.

surfer

January 15th, 2005, 09:19 AM

Interesting report back from the chat room as well Dreamer. Heck, you even made enough of an impression to be mentioned in the YMforums. Actually, a member was impressed by the way the moderator handled your questions. ;)

As for authorities slowly getting around to these types of cons. At the rate they pop up and disappear, I just can't see any way in the world that they could ever keep up. By the time a ponzi gets big enough to grab their attention, it's already too late and the wheels are falling off. The web is truly the wild, wild, west.

Dreamer

January 15th, 2005, 12:07 PM

I'll give the mod his props. He was very professional. It didn't sound like he was lying or trying to convince me of anything. It sounded like he believed what he was talking about. There was no silence between me asking my questions and him answering as if he should look to see what the key talking points were. I probably spent an hour or 2 asking all kinds of questions and he was really patient. As for the members in the room, I don't know what they might have said since I wasn't paying attention. I typed my questions and he answered them via audio.

To a supporter of the system, I'm sure it sounded like a hella of a pitch. Not a pitch in the typical sence, but something to be proud of how well he answered. Did he convert me? Nah. But, there was not that one killer question I could come up with to prove him wrong. The only thing I came close to was comparing it to ponzi, and he wouldn't go there, so instead of pushing the issue, I left it alone. I would like to push that issue, since he said 90% of the moneys paid come from new recruits (that was an estimate...he doesn't have numbers) so how is that not ponzi? Even if there is theoratical other cash flows, the majority is ponzi, so it has to be ponzi.

The only other thing I tried pushing was ask about was the other flows of income, who is advertising, and asking for the numbers. But, like any scam, its all trade secrets. I hate trade secrets. There are no secrets. I think some member mentioned KFCs secret sause. They have to disclose it, because if your alegeric to an ingrediant, than they have a major lawsuit. And, once they discloe it, who can actually make it the same way? Nobody.

The 94% talking point was mentioned. And Bill Gates and his wonderful idea talking point was mentioned. I mentioned that bill gates had a product to sell...his rebutal...they are selling epcs.

What good is it to advertise to a select few amount of people? There is no good. You can place adverts in trade magazine where people actually pay $500+ year for the magazine and have better results than people who actually think they can turn $10 into $100,000/yr.

I just need a new line of questioning my next sleepless night. Any ideas?

Can you post a link to the thread here where they mentioned me? No need to mention that I'm on this forum. I enjoy my conversation with the mod, but I don't care to have a whole slew of ymmss supporters trying to brainwash us.

If it really truely works, I'll post my opinion here. But, I'm not going to brainwash anybody. I just want to know the truth. But, I'll never know why people think that there is a legit business to read advertisements and make $100,000 a year doing so. People are quitting their jobs because of a site thats been up for 2.5 years. If this is legit, I'll become a member in 10 years. I should have the same opportunities if this is long term, no?

I'm sure I mentioned this in my previous post, but one thing I hated was his inability to play hypothetical, since this is a hypothetical business. If businesses pay 10billion in the first year advertising on a web site (anybody know how much drudge gets on his site?) and they only get a return of 1billion (assuming people put back 10% of their profits), why would they spend any the second year? If they truely have reasons to lose money advertising, tv does a much better job where you have so many more people from all walks of life potentially viewing.

And the logic was they know how many people will view their adverts. So, how will they know all 100,000 click on each advert? Oh well. Thats for another day.

surfer

January 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM

Dreamer, the post is in the "Office" section of the forums at http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8336

They recently changed registration rules on the forum so you can not register unless you are a YMMSS member. So you won't be able to view the post unless you somehow were already registered before they instituted the new policy and they missed cleaning you out of the db.

Yes, there are a lot of holes in the so called retail side of the business.

Since the advertisers won't know about YMMSS, this means yet another site members will have to log into and view ads.

Unless YMMSS is going to require every member to view every retail ad, there can be no guarantee to the advertiser how many will actually view the ads, only that the ad will be submitted to x number of people earning x amount of income.

No demographics to supply to advertisers except for location and income. If they intend to charge a substantial amount for ads, this type of info is important.

.....etc., etc.

The only arguments forthcoming from YMMSS supporters are I got paid and Kim is such and honest and ethical person. I guess nobody has heard those claims with about 1000 other ponzis and their owners before their inevitable collapse. :bow: :rolleyes:

Other than the obvious ponzi income and the Belize resort(of course, no figures are available about income generated from this either), members can't name any other significant sources of revenue as it's all "secret". ssssssssshhhhhhhh

A new line of questioning? I can't see much more to ask. Get too negative and you're liable to be booted out of the chat room. The important questions for serious DD can't be answered by any member and won't be answered by the owner.

There is a thread here (http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3694) where a member claims to have put the info into the hands of "an internationally acclaimed financial and futures expert" who was apparently very impressed and signed up. Of course, this world renowned expert remains anonymous as do the professors, mathematicians, and the attorney who have apparently come of to Kim's way of thinking. Gee, all of these trememdous experts, and none of them willing to step forward.

Dreamer

January 18th, 2005, 03:02 PM

Its rather unfortunate there. Guests really don't have alot to read on the forums.

There is one sticky with some 99 guy who just wanted to tell the world that he talked to an international financial advisor, and this guy was so impressed with the program. He even managed to cover most of YMMSS talking points. The guy has written books and bought 500 $320 shares himself, or somehting totally stupid.

So, I responded...that will be great once you give us this guys name so that we can verify your claims ourselves. Of course, with my style, I'm sure it came out much more childish than that. It doesnt matter, cause suprise suprise, my post was deleted.

Than I was asking questions on 2 threads. The moderator there said that I aked plenty of questions and got plenty of responses, so they are closing the threads. Wait. I didn't get a single good response except that I should trust people I've never met. Hell, I don't trust people I've known for years, so why should I trust them?

Somebody mentioned that once I become a member I can learn alot more about the business. Wait, that strikes me as wrong. I'm curious about the business now. Your going to charge me so that I can see if its right?

Somebody gave me this document that had most of the talking points on it, and I quoted one sentence that said all the money that I get paid comes from you and vice versa. That sounds like a ponzi to me.

I had one nice person offer to buy my first spot and the entry fee, or whatever you call it. Maybe if they didn't close the thread so I could respond to him I would take him up on it. However, is there anybody here who gets totally excited that they turned $10 into $20 in 4 months? If that extra $10 is so important, than I'll just work an hour of overtime, or recycle cans during those 4 months. If I'm going to get in a program, I'm going to want to make it worth mywhile. I spend more on fast food in a day than $10.

I questioned the crediability of the atorneys asking how I can contact them. I was told that somebody met them. That doesn't help me out much.

Than I bought simple math into it. I I invest today, to double once would require another $60 million. Double 2 times requires another $120million, than $240, than $480, or something along those lines. The best answers I got here was people will buy my spots. So, if kim pulls a greg, will somebody email me to buy my spots in case kim comes back with another gregish excuse?

I feel sorry for some of those people. They claim to have quit their jobs. Maybe they are making decent money cause they've been around since the beginning. However, as it sounds this doubler is only being used until they have their member base than everybody is going to want to advetise with them.

It really doesn't add up. 100,000 members making $100,000. how many advertisors do they need? 100,000 each paying anually $100,000 to advertise on a website? I can pay a professional $5,000 to design a killer website for me, and spend the rest of the $95,000 buy magazine space, newspaper space, radio adds, whatever getting my site out there. The difference is, the people who go to my site are interested in my product. Even if 100k/100k works, thats not the supreme demographic. If that was I would just market my product in beverly hills, or some other rich city.

Dreamer

January 19th, 2005, 01:22 AM

Well, the person that was "helping" me with my advertising on the site sent me an email apologising for the delay in responding. Gave me a nbr to call him. So, now I can either call and press him for answers or email him saying how dissatisfied i am. I think I'm going to do the email because I have no intentions of advertising with a company that cant give me their rates when I ask.

surfer

January 19th, 2005, 09:35 AM

Well Dreamer, a couple of other people have suggested to "winner99" that it would be good for this "financial expert" to step forward and endorse the program.

I would also have to ask if this is a financial expert or an advertising expert, as the guy apparently comments on how advertising is evolving http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=59814#59814

Oh, and he also "has access to the top technos in California" and was also impressed with the technical and hardware aspects of YMMSS. :bow: Wow, "an international name in financials and futures markets", has lectured around the world, written books, knows all about successful advertising, and the technical and hardware aspects of an internet business. Amazing. I'm thinking it might be Jerod from 'The Pretender" TV series. :D

As for their advertising, I'm sure you saw the reply that they are hoping to have the retail advertising site up within a couple of weeks. Unfortunately, they are a far cry from 100K members with $100k income.

At this stage, what kind of demographics can they even hope to give potential advertisers. We have a couple handfuls of people "earning" a 6 figure income, possibly a few more handfuls "earning" a decent income and the thousands more barely scraping by waiting for their ship to come in.

You have to love that "if you're not willing to risk $10" attitude. For many of us, it's not about losing $10, it's about joining a legal, viable business. Why would I want to throw $10 into the ponzi kitty in support of a company that in the end will rip of thousands of people and ruin the lives of those foolish enough to quit their jobs after a few months of solid ponzi income.

Dreamer

January 19th, 2005, 10:53 AM

surfer

January 20th, 2005, 11:55 AM

Well, here is my opinion. Honestly, I've been doing my research because I would like to join if its legit. Honestly, it sounds like it potentially migtht be legit. Here is my opinion:

It is probably legimitate. I don't think there is enough income streams to differentiate it from a ponzi, but I believe it has enough elements to make it stick out that it is not completely illegial.
About as far as I'll go is that it's a ponzi scheme with legitimate aspirations. ;) And I'm not even too sure about that.
However, when I went to sign up, I saw that there is the member and retailer side. The retailer side you can purchase in the 320 for $199.95 a discount off the $320 that the members pay.
The retailer side you saw has nothing to do with the retail ads that are supposedly down the road. After all, what kind of fool would pay for an ad with no return over an ad that will pay him a recurring income forever, LOL. The current retail ads are more for current members to voluntarily give some money back to the system to help keep it going.
So, if its $199.95 per add, what is $10billion/$200? Thats like 50million advertisers they'll need. Now, what return can I hope to get from my investment if there is 50million other advertisors. What is the possibility any of the 100,000 members will see my ad? About 1 in 500 chance. Thats not too promossing, is it?

Even if you want to say the retail side is only 1/2 the way in which members are paid, I still have a 1 in 250 chance that a single person will see my add.
The retailers they are supposedly shooting for won't be paying that small of an amount.

But you're other point is very valid. This whole retail ad premise is set up the statement that your ads are guaranteed to be read. So are members going to be required to read every single ad from every single retailer? The current ad forums are not structured to accomplish this, and there are literally thousands of ads there.

So it would only be reasonable to conclude that members will not only be required to log in and spend x amount of time at the current ad forums, but they will also be required to log in to the new retail ad site for x amount of time per week.
So, lets look at their subway statment. Lets round it up that they spend $50million dollars. So, if the advertising cost is $50million dollars, Theyd still need 200 companies that are willing to spend $50million a piece. The ONLY way that will happen is if YMMSS can provide companies a report on the success of previous companies advertising. Well, they have no trackrecord, so why would anybody pay more than $1000 on an unheard of company?
Exactly. The number of advertiser dollars needed to continually fund an ever growing membership who's income is eternally doubling is astronomical. It continually amazes me that people choose to ignore simple math and prefer to instead believe in some magical secret system that defies all logic. But hey, "I got paid", so it must be legit. :shake:
For this to work as a true advertising giant, they need to do a few things.

1. If 100k/100k is important, they must get that membership. Personally, I would much rather put my dollars into a group of people who have made internet purchases in the past. That is way more valuable to me. Now, if I was a car salesman, I would much rather purchase an email list of people who are known to buy car related things onine.
Funny thing is, they are intending to launch the retail ad site in a couple of week. With what as a membership base? Less than 20% of what the goal is and significantly less than 1% earning that 6 figure goal.

I wonder if any members have truly taken the time to even think about that. Even with a 90 day cycle, a member would have to buy in with $12,500 today to be earning $100k in one year. With the current 120 day cycle, to do the same thing, you would have to start with $50k.
2. They really need to establish a purchase base from these members so they can give advertisers a detailed analysis of what the members purchased. That percentage better be higher than the average consumer. If the average consumers spends 20% of their paycheck on purchases, that focus group better have spend 2billion on products sold only to the site.
Yep, falls into the whole lack of any substantial demographic info category.
The only way to make this work is to force a percentage of epcs to not get paid out but to be paid into a spending account that can only be used for advertiser purchases. If its a 320EPC, when it cycles, 320 goes back into the system, $240 goes into the stormpay, or whatever, and $80 goes into a spending allowance account which cannot be withdrawn but has to be used to make purchases. Actually, I think this is a good idea if they are trying to make this into a serious business.

Now, lets say you can somehow get these two things. Now you can advertise yourself as a $10billion unit with a guaranteed return of $2.5bilion. Now, thats a group I would sell to if there was a guarantee they'll pay.
If I thought this company had any hopes of true longevity, I would have to say that's a brilliant idea.
But, who needs a guarantee when you advertise? Some months it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. But getting your name out and keeping it out is important.
That's another thing Kim fails to address in his spin. Many of these TV ads and such are as much for branding as they are to drive sales.

Another point to be made is that many companies only sell within their own country or region, so the fact that membership is spread out all over the world either limits who will advertise or significantly reduces the target membership that can possibly benefit them.
Here is the problem. If I'm a car salesman and I advertise on their site, I might have 100 other car companies also advertising on the site. Thats way too much competition. TV, how may car commercials are there in a certain city? Maybe a dozen. Thats manageable. If I advertise that way I can push how my dealership is different from other dealers. Simple. Online its harder. The key differential online is price, and thats about it. So, can I beat out in price the other 100 competitors?

The benefit of reaching millions of consumers instead of 100,000 consumers is I can put my website on the bottom of tv commercials or at the end of radio ads. I would rather put down DreamersDealerShip.com instead of ymmss.com/dreamersdealership
I don't think competition with other advertisers will be much of an issue. ;)
If I'm going to advertise online to get people to my site (which is a good thing, I'm going to probably advertise on drudgereport.com where they have millions of hits a day. I'll probably advertise on google and become a sponsored link. I'm not going to advertise on a site that the ONLY people that will see my link is the same group of people all the time. I want fresh faces constantly. If I advertise on their site and all of the 100,000 members saw my link and decided it wasn't for them, thats a dead end. Advertising on google or anywhere else gives me potentially new clientelle who might actually be looking for my product.
Or Yahoo, or google adwords. Places where you control the price, can target keywords, and/or just have tremendous exposure.
But, to answer your point. All my questions got answered with give us a try. I'm willing to give a con artist $10 in hopes I might get paid. Heck, I've been had before, so the thought of maybe this time working out is good. But, wait 4 months to make $10? I don't think so. If I work a minimum wage job I can make about $4,000 a month. Yeah, it sucks to have to put down a real job on a resume, however, I think being able to make an additional $1000 in that 4 months is worth looking into. So, it costs me $1000. If its legit, I'll consider doing it. Thats a good chunck of change. However, if I invest that much in a business I'm going to hope it can promise it.
Perfectly understandable since they can't give any real answers. The typical "I got paid, so it's real" reply. But many ponzis do pay, for a while.
If I take that $1000 and invest in my business, in the 4 months I could end up being broke and have more inventory, or, I can potentially turn it into $10,000 depending on the market and my product. But, at least with that, I have more control over the risks I'm willing to take.

The risk I'm taking at ymmss is not that they dont deliver, but that the cant deliver and slow down/hault like all doublers that got over a few thousand members, and potentially close down before I saw any return.
It's laughable that they insist they're not a doubler. Even with significant outside revenue, all revenue sources would have to continue to grow exponentially every cycle to keep it running. Yet noone can seem to grasp this.
So. has that winner responded to why he wont reveal his source?
No
Oh, I don't know if I mentioned, but when I was in the chatroom that one day I was asking about advertising. The mod said something about that I don't know about advertising and there is no point to discuss it. Maybe I'm not an advertising major, but I think I know a thing or two.
So who is an advertising expert? I don't think Kim is. He apparently was a great recruiter for his MLM, but that's about it. And he designed an awesome ponzi scheme that managed to last for over 2 1/2 years. Well done, but that doesn't make him an advertising expert. Maybe that's done by one of his "five pillars".

I almost wish I could fast forward to March/April to see if the cycle times do go down and by how much. And with they way they are increasing 2 to 4 days each week, I can't help but think they will still continue to climb anyway.

ycchen

January 20th, 2005, 11:44 PM

Interesting conversation! :) Yes, we definitely need to give Kim a credit for maintaining a 2 1/2 years ponzi, which is still listed as "long term scheme" at moneymakergroup.com. lol Note: "long-term scheme" simply means that the scheme is one step closer to "CLOSE" section of the forum. Good example is the WA360. lol

Here is another question for you. One of the "fact" that convince the ponzi followers is the real identity of the owner. I believe Kim (YMMSS owner), Bryan (PIPS owner), and Janet (Empowerism owner) have real identity and probably real office address and telephone number. In fact, having published real identity is really crucial in convincing their followers to keep the money flowing into the ponzi scheme. Bryan is the best of all in distributing his pictures and his activities on the website. The more you do that, the more you look like a "legitimate" MLM-style business.

Okay, here is my real question. What is the exit plan for the above ponzi owners after their ponzi crash to the earth, most probably this year (2005). I don't think they are planning to just go to jail and spend the rest of their life there. They MUST have at least one exit plan with probably 2-3 backup plans.

The exit plan for most copycat matrix-sites and doublers are very simple since the real identity of the owners are always ambiguous or fake. The exit plan is 1) just close down and keep the money to themselves; 2) keep a ghost town running to prevent massive complaints from the customers.

Well, since we are not the secratary of these ponzi owners, it is hard to speculate about their exit plan. I thought it might be useful to learn from the ponzi history. What are the exit plan for the past ponzi owners? How many actually get away, and how many are put behind bar? May be we should start a new thread on this topic.

Diehard followers might not be interested in this topic, but I think we need to think ahead, as I anticipate many consumers might be screaming for help when these ponzi suddenly crash, or file bankrupsy, or simply vanish.

Just a thought to share. :)

surfer

January 21st, 2005, 12:11 AM

Well, Bryan seems to be all over the world anyhow, so it seems that he could just disappear at any time if necessary.

I don't know much about Janet and perhaps I choose to remain naive, but I believe Kim thinks he can be a real company someday. He apparently doesn't have a history of failed businesses and scams. So when it does tank, we'll have to see if he comes up with another one.

It takes forever for the authorities to catch up to these things. And a couple of things seem to keep many of them low enough on the radar to get away with it.

1. Many of the participating members are habitual HYIP, doubler, ponzi, matrix, etc. players who know it's going to fold and simply consider it all a game. You win some, you lose some.

2. Many victims of these feel too ashamed to admit and report that they were scammed. Others may feel that since they were involved in something that they now realize was illegal, they could get in trouble as well.

3. Most of them simply never get big enough before they collapse to draw attention to themselves, so the majority seem to get away with it.

ycchen

January 21st, 2005, 12:22 AM

Good points! I think your 3 points explain why these ponzi/pramid owners could just jump from one scam to the other easily because of the nature of this "informal economy".

Even though I think legal action is fundamental to stop, or at least slow down the spread of new ponzis or pyramids, consumer awareness continue to be crucial in helping newbies to make rational choice or get out of scams sooner than later.

Your point 1. is well taken. I think in the future class lawsuit, habitual speculators should also be sued together with the scammers. I know it is very difficult, and I can hear those season speculators laughing crazily over there at moneymakergroup.com already. :) Nevertheless, attorney who make a living on filing class lawsuit against ponzi/pyramid scheme should seriously think about this possibility.

surfer

January 21st, 2005, 12:45 AM

ycchen

January 21st, 2005, 01:01 AM

I don't know much about Janet and perhaps I choose to remain naive, but I believe Kim thinks he can be a real company someday. He apparently doesn't have a history of failed businesses and scams. So when it does tank, we'll have to see if he comes up with another one.

I missed your crucial point above. I guess ponzi can be very addictive even for the owner. I won't be surprise if Kim open another ponzi, and that would probably be the most likely "exit plan".

However,I just don't understand how could YMMSS customers keep silent if YMMSS belly up? May be KIM will give some of the vocal members a "front row seat" in his new ponzi to buy their loyalty?

I think the exit plan might be as easy as Buy out a few vocal one and ignore the rest (since most of them might be either habitual speculators or too ashame to file complaints).

To YMMSS customers who might be reading this thread (probably not a lot), if you are worried about the future of the YMMSS, you should probably think of an exit plan for yourself and for all customers.

I think some diehard followers (and most likely to be the habitual speculators who benefit from the ponzi, like ASFx) could exit easily since their investment has be paid off a few times already. And they will continue to defend the failure of the YMMSS as a way to divide the soliarity of the customers-turn-victims.

I feel so sick when ASFx defend the owner of a doubler even after it closed down. Here is the thread.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2148

Here is the final defense on the doubler by habitual speculator and promoter of a doubler scam -- ASFx.
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=2814&st=930
Looks like the end. It was a good ride. I hope everyone made sure to take my advice and do the 25% each time and most of you should have at least broken even or be in profit. You did a good job while it lasted Andrew. Good luck on your next venture.

Isn't that disguisting? :eek:

surfer

January 21st, 2005, 01:24 AM

Yes, quite nauseating. They don't care about the naive, inexperienced players who are conned into actually believing these things work long term.

Well, there are people who promote these ponzis that have been charged by the authorities, and that Jason Tucker fellow is leaving himself wide open for just that happening. If the whois info is correct, he lives in the US and may very well end up getting nailed for promoting illegal ponzi schemes.

Hey, if you get away with running one ponzi, why not give it another shot?

Before we get too far off topic, I'm just waiting to see how the next couple months unfold with YMMSS. The way things are going, the cycles won't catch up with the timeframe in November when they launched the new website until the middle of April. If the increasing cycle time at least slows down a little, it may creep up in March instead.

I'll also be following the launch of the "retail" ad site very closely to see exactly what that will be all about and what rule changes for the membership will be implemented.

sisco50

January 21st, 2005, 09:02 AM

Well, the 'net is the Wild West all over again. Tough to nail any of these folks, especially the ones outside of the the more regulated countries like the US, Canada, UK, and Australia.

Maybe someday.

In order to nail any of these folks there has to be an attempt made on the part of the various governments. There is very little happening in that area. Actually there is nothing happening in that area in most parts of the world.

ycchen

January 21st, 2005, 09:19 AM

Sorry for diverting the attention to exit plan both for KIM and the customers.

Yes, please keep new information coming into this thread. Personally, I think the "retail ad site" is just another gimmick to get a few newbies to donate to the ponzi before it crash. Running a big ponzi such as YMMSS is really an ART! You need to know when to introduce some "incentive" to keep the cash flow going. That's why we call them con artist, isn't it? :)

Dreamer

January 21st, 2005, 09:28 AM

A few things you guys are missing:

1. It is not a ponzi. If you mention that again, i'm gonna hafe to ask you nicely not to post here again. I'm not going to waste my time proving its not a ponzi, because there is multiple income streams. Just don't ask me about any details. Ask kim that. I never bothered asking.

2. If it crashes, oh well. All legit businesses crash at one time. We've arlready made our money, so who cares?

I don't want to discuss this with you guys any more until you read this awsome report somebody wrote up. Now, when you get to the paragraph that says something like (I'm paraphrasing here) "All the money I get paid comes from membrs, and all the money that members get paid comes from other members". Just ignore this one line, cause its innacurate. After all, I said its not a ponzi, and our own brainwashing material proves its nothing but a ponzi, so ignore that since it doesn't jive.

If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to not answer it. Just pay $20.70 and see for yourself. That is the best answer I can give you to anything. What is the current cycle time? Give us money. What percentage of pay outs come from members? Give us money. What businesses has kim run in the past? give us money. Has anybody checked the credentials of kims attorneys? give us money. Has anybody checked kims drivers license to see if thats his real name? give us money.

As you were.

surfer

January 21st, 2005, 09:48 AM

lol lol lol @ Dreamer

Personally, I think the "retail ad site" is just another gimmick

We'll see. It will be very interesting to see just what kind of client they could possibly pull in with an advertising base that's still very small and has an unimpressive average income.

On last night's conference call, Kim mentioned he would be talking to someone with an organization numbering in the thousands. Yet another thing I've heard time and time again from various "opportunities".

Dreamer

February 1st, 2005, 02:52 PM

Well, I started looking into this again and I wonder what the cycle times now are. I suppose I can quote someone somewhere about their excuses, but I'll just say it in my own words. They go offline once a week, surver upgrades, yadda yadda yadda. Should this affect a cycle time? Well, if your desperate to believe a business because they've done no wrong to you in the past, it sounds good.

Lets compare this to a gas boycott. they are always popular because they sound like they will work. Boycott this gas company the first monday of next month. If we all do this we can show them how united we are and they can't raise prices whenever they want (or whatever).

The reason why this doesn't work (lets assume that 100% of the people do do this), is because on the one day they'll have zero gas sales. In the upcoming days they'll have over 100% usual gas sales, as those who boycotted the one day end up getting it another day.

Thats even more true here. Lets say I'm a member. I believe this site 100%. I'm going to make alot of money. I know it just takes 79 epc purchaes of $10 to start each one to make 6 figures. WEll, I don't want to wait that long so I've been regularly putting in $320 a week. I figure within a year I should have my 79 spots.

So, I just got paid today. I have my money. Its been a week, so I need to buy another spot. But wait, they are closed today? Well, that sucks. Now, I have 2 choices. 1. I can wait until tomorrow and buy that epc, or, since they were down, I'm just not going to come back the next day to buy it. I'm going to buy $320 worth of twinkees instead.

The truth of the matter is any loss of sales due to downtime should correct itself almost immediately the next day, or over the next few days.

surfer

February 1st, 2005, 03:18 PM

Right.

Until tomorrow at least, cycle times are still technically at 126 days. Processing was moved to February 2nd (http://www.ymhelp.com/?_a=announcements&_m=details&_i=56) because We have had to move today's processing to Wednesday Feb 2nd. While performing today’s processing, some of our help staff in their zeal to help our membership made some changes that caused database errors during processing. The database has been restored and processing will take place Wednesday, Feb 2nd at 7:30 AM EST.

The game plan currently is for the new servers to be implemented while people are on the YMMSS Belize Cruise (http://silversleuth.com/BelizeCruise.html) from Feb. 12 through Feb 19 and they are hoping to bring the new debit cards from Wells Fargo on board at that time as well. You can keep up to date on organized YMMSS gatherings at http://silversleuth.com/travel.html

Look from some new issues to arise as the favorite money exchanger of many YMMSS members, IntGold, has instituted a new policy that is going to have at least a short term impact on users being able to withdraw and/or spend the money that they currently have in their accounts.

URGENT PLEASE READ THIS E-MAIL IMPORTANT 01/31/05

Dear IntGold Account Holders,

Internet Gold Inc., its staff, and management would like to take this opportunity to express our sincere appreciation to all existing account holders that have installed faith and confidence in our team and system. A major part of any corporations’ routine is to recognize and correct any potential areas, management feels, could have a negative impact on its daily business. Internet Gold Inc. strives to deliver an expedient, cost effective, online payment solution.

As a direct result of an internal management decision, effective immediately all IntGold holders will be limited to the amount of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis. We have listed below the information required by all IntGold account holders in order to withdraw or transfer your desired amount of funds in the system monthly. The purpose of this new verification process is to provide a higher level of security for all account holders as well as complying with certain requirements imposed on the entire industry relating to any type of currency exchange both on and off the internet. Each item verified by the IntGold office will allow you to withdraw or transfer out of the system a greater amount of money on a monthly basis. Any verified level will enable the account holder to receive an unlimited amount of funds into his or her account. The points will be from 1 to 15, 11 or more points being the highest with no limits of withdraws or transfers out of the system. The first level of verification that all account holders must complete is the e-mail verification; IntGold is verifying all e-mail addresses in our system. If you are seeing this screen then you need to verify the e-mail address listed in your IntGold account. Once you click on the button you will receive an e-mail with "Confirm Your E-mail For Intgold account 000000" when you go to your e-mail box, find the e-mail and 'click' on the 'verify- e-mail address link in the e-mail, make sure that ttps//:intgold.com (h in front of the tt) is first and the padlock is in the lower right hand corner of the screen. Then on this site the screen that pops up will ask you to enter your primary and secondary password. Once you enter them you will then be logged-in to your back room to do as you wish or just log-out.

When you are ready to fill out your affidavit this is located on the first page of the intgold member’s area. Right under where it states “Welcome You’re Name”
Click on the link and you will be able to print the page and fill out the information.

1 Point - e-mail verification

1 Point - Faxing then subsequently mailing or just mailing to the office at the address listed below this signed affidavit.

2 Points - Mailing to the office a recent utility bill where name, address and phone number listed in IntGold match.

3 Points - Copy of recent phone bill where name, address and phone number listed in IntGold match, mailed to office.

3 Points - Copy of Drivers License or Passport mailed to the office

5 Points - copy of Social Security Card or if corporation a stamped copy of corporation/registration including EIN# & documents listing officers and details of location and type of organization mailed to office.

Maximum total amount of points = 15

1 points = Up to $250. Of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis.

2 to 6 points = Up to $500. Of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis.

7 to 9 points = Up to $2,500. Of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis.

10 points = Up to $5,000. Of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis.

11 or more points = Unlimited amount of funds withdrawn or transferred out of your IntGold account on a monthly basis.

*You can receive an unlimited amount of funds into your IntGold account with just 1 or more points, however you will not be able to withdraw or transfer out of the IntGold system funds that exceed the above limits without having the appropriate amount of points as indicated above.

We greatly appreciate you assistance and sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.

Thank You,
Administration
IntGold

sisco50

February 1st, 2005, 08:14 PM

That looks like an email I received yesterday. Never used that account for anything tho. It seems all ecurrency exchangers are now trying to comply with customer IDing requirements. This could mean a considerable downturn in the volume of business they will be getting from now on. All members/account holders using those services will become transparent and I am sure that a lot of them will not like that.

surfer

February 1st, 2005, 08:27 PM

Especially those companies like IntGold that are based in the US. May take a bit longer to affect some of the ones based in other less regulated countries.

It may start to have quite an impact on many of the doublers and other ponzis out there pretty soon.

Dreamer

February 2nd, 2005, 04:22 AM

Just doing some quick numbers here:

Since Feb 18 2004 (approximate date in which commission was 1m), the amount paid has been just 6x (2m, 4m, 8m, 16m, 32m, 64m) The last double date was Jan 14 at 64m. Thats 330days.

During that time, the membership increased from approximately 1,200 members to aproximately 16,000 members, which is approximately 3.5x doubled rate.

By Month, the average number of days that reached a million was: Apr = 17, May = 11, June = 8, July = 5.2, Aug = 5.6, Sep = 4, Oct = 2.5, Nov = 3.1, Dec = 2.7, Jan = 3.7. October was the key month, and it looks like its slowing down. I think numbersman did better calculations than me, but this isn't the point.

Kim has said that 86% (I think) of the money that goes into the system is used for commissions. In other words, in addition to the $10 he makes per new member, he is taking 14% into his own pocket. Im not going to argue with that, because other doubler sites and matrix sites take a bigger piece of the pie.

---

The current payout is about $68m. Days to cycle is 126 (Im guessing this is calculated such that the person who cycled today waited 126 days, not the person who buys today will wait 126 days). 14% of the money goes into kims greedy hands (remember the motto...people helping kim). 90% (it was estimated) of the moneys paid out comes from new members. And they say they are taking in 1/3million per day.

So, if I invest today, I'm going to need ($68m/.86)*.9 or about $71m worth to follow me. Now, it is showing that the money coming in is slowing down, but at that rate, for me double my money, the cycle length should be about 213 days.

Since its 126 days, they are saying they need $42m from new members, and $29m to be reinvested by current members. $29m/68m is about 42% reinvestment rate. Now, if its reaccuring income, that suggests that more money is being taken from the system than put into it. This should be even more alarming (if my math is correct) because a majority of people aren't at the reaccuring point yet. Some are buying $10 and letting it ride up to $320.

So, what would it take to get the cycle down to 90days like people think kim has a magic plan? An additional 12million from outside sources right now, and a growth rate similiar to the growth rate of the business. So, if 90% of the currenty payouts come from new members, that percentage will need to drop down to 75%, or 2.5x the current stream. Now, 2.5x growth isn't so bad, except, if they claim 10% comes from outsides sources, thats 7m. They will need an additional 13m from outside sources. Where are they coming from? Nowhere.

---

One final note. Looking at days doubled. The first and second time the site doubled took 34days. The next doubling was 1.33x, 1.22x, 1.18x, and a stagering 1.4x. My guessastimate that the site will reach $128m payout will happen Somewhere around June 30th. By than, the cycle length should be just under 200. Of course there are problems with these figures, in that I think earlybirds will start seeing a huge slowdown (it was only supposed to be 90days, not 190days) and start pulling their money out. The only thing kim can do is falisfy the cycle length to give confidence to the members so they'll put more money into the system. I estimate there will be about 30k members.

Does anybody have any more accurate numbers I could look at for cycle lengths and number of members?

http://fulltimeincomefromparttimework.com/commissions-paid.html

surfer

February 2nd, 2005, 09:23 AM

Interesting breakdown. Confusing as hell, but interesting.

Of the incoming money, 75% is supposed to go to the commission pool and 25% to admin(3% given back in referral commissions, 11% to cover admin fees, and 11% to go to developing outside income streams).

The site you linked to is probably the most accurate one available to get the numbers to work with that I've found.

One thing that sticks out to me is that in the last 90 days, the member base has doubled from around 10k to 20k members, yet the cycle time has risen 36 days. If that doesn't open people's eyes to the reality, then nothing will. You can make all the excuses you want for site downtime, etc., but none of that adds up to the number of days lost in the cycling.

Right now, they are only losing 5 to 6 days per week in cycle time, so even though it's slow, at least people are seeing progress towards cycling. That allows them to continue to believe, albeit with less confidence than before. When they start losing ground, i.e., cycle times start going up 7+ days/week, the real s**t will hit the fan.

They are trying to avoid this with stop gap measures to buy time like allowing those members who are making a substantial income to opt into taking only $160 from their matured EPCs instead of $320. New servers allowing processing 24/7 just simply aren't going to drive cycle times down. They only lose about 1 day/week because of the processing times(not even that IMO), so it makes no sense to think that things are going to magically reverse.

Even if the retail ad site does launch, Kim will need to have some pretty slick talking ad salesmen to generate any substantial revenues for a site geared towards such a small member base with an unheard of company.

It would be tough for Kim to fudge the cycle times, as the members are very much on top of that. ;) Maybe if they close the forum down, he might be able to play it out a little longer.

Dreamer

February 2nd, 2005, 01:57 PM

Maybe the numbers mean nothing. However, if you buy 79 positions at $10 piece, and wait 6 cycles than you'll have this outstanding reaccuring income. But, the problem is, the site has only doubled 5 times in 2004. Well, that is still not too bad, however, in order for the site to double 2 more times in 2005, the total payouts will have to be $256m. Does anybody see that happening?

Maybe next time I'm super bored, I'll run with your percentage you posted here. But, just thinking about it abit here, if its a doubler, it seems logical (to me anyways - I admit, I don't know much about it), but the larger the beast is, the longer the cycle. Well, tha part is obvious, however, if in 2004 the site doubled say 4x (easier for the math), I would predict base case scenario that in 2005 it only doubles 2x, 2006, 1x, than the next double will take 2 years, than 4 years, than 8 years. So, my 79 $10 investments today should all mature in about 16 years. Thats just ignoring the fact that the site has been around for 2.5 years, so we have no reason to even believe they'll catch up.

I really don't see why any business would want to advertise with them. The problem with internet advertising (of any sorts) is you have to differentiate yourself amogst the competition. However, your competition is many many many more similiar businesses across the planet. Thats why most businesses, at best, use their website to help drive their regular business. So, we would put our website in ads we did in magazine advertising, and if I was around when they were doing radio commercials, he would have put the url there also. That makes sence. However, the most internet advertising we did was meta names to drive people to our site that googled our inventory. I think we also listed our sites to the major search engines.

Truth is, internet advertising doesn't pay. People hate popups. People typically don't click on banners. If I'm going to do a banner, I'd rather advertise on the drudgereport where they get 10m hits a day or 250m+ hits a month.

I really cant see why any business would align themselves with an online entity that got its membership base by running a ponzi, and whos owner took the business out of the country cause he didnt' want to get sued. But, iit will be interesting to see what happens.

surfer

February 3rd, 2005, 11:16 AM

There are so many unknown variables with the numbers, but it seems to be a good general overview showing the reality of what's happening as opposed to all of the fantasy excuses being made.

In theory, the retail ad side is the only thing that even came close to making sense to me. Advertisers are constantly buying targeted lists of names with certain demographics to market to. So, it seems like a good idea on the surface.

But YMMSS has not gathered any elaborate set of demographics to show to possible retailers. Their whole idea is that the only thing they need to show advertisers is a bunch of people making a bunch of money.

Internet advertising is profitable, if you know what you're doing.

Again, retail advertisers are not to know about YMMSS. Although if they were to do their DD right now, a search for "Success Through Advertising" on Google brings up a number of YMMSS related links. So who knows what kind of kink that could throw into it.

The cycle time is now up to 130 days, so it's grown 20 days in the last 30. While slow going, it's enough to let those that are making money still continue to spout their "when, not if" policy on getting paid. But a number of newer members are definitely beginning to wonder "if" their cycle will ever happen. It will be an interesting response the first time that YMMSS has a 7 day increase during a 7 day span.

I think those who are banking on new servers being a "magic pill" are going to be disappointed.

Dreamer

February 3rd, 2005, 01:09 PM

I think I said this before, but there are companies who specialize in data mining customer behavior. So, instead of just having a database of people who have made online purchases, or who are likely to respond to giveaways, they throw all information they can into a database about you. Name, address, phone number, zip code, previous residence, information regarding previous purchase, email lists you might be on, what church you go to, what ethnicity you are, everything.

so, lets say you have a product that you want to sell mostly to black catholic people of middle income who attend churce at least 2 times a month, are married without children, and work less than 30 hours a week. Furthermore, you want only local people. You can buy a list like that from a data miner who specializes in that form of business, and now you have an ultimate list of people who fit your exact demographic.

Maybe I'm just a pessimistic, however, i think that internet sales definately do work. Internet advertising, however, doesn't and probably will never. People delete emails, close popup windows, and don't look at banners. The biggest problem to overcome with internet advertising is differeientate your product. Thats easier said than done unfortunately. People who shop online want the biggest deal.

so, tell me, if your going to advertise online, will you advertise to a very select group of people at ymmss, or will you try the staples like search engines? Or, heaven forbit, will you go thru an advertising agency that has many years experience doing it?

surfer

February 3rd, 2005, 03:13 PM

IMO, the preferred marketing methods right now are PPC and SEO, for those who are able to master them.

Those who have the ability to create a regular newsletter for website visitors can also get a decent response to their email ads. Yes, many people delete unrequested email, but if you have an established list of loyal readers, you have an excellent target market.

Because of the growing email issues, many webmasters are transitioning to RSS feeds as well.

Back to YMMSS.

This month should definitely be interesting.

We get to see what, if any, impact the new servers will have on cycle times.

I'm also interested to see just how smoothly(or not) things will go with the supposed Wells Fargo accounts that Kim is supposedly going to be setting up for the membership. Seeing if Kim will be able to get every member an account when many of them won't be able to provide the proper documentation that U.S. regulations require should be an interesting read.

And the retail ad site was claimed to only be a few weeks away in the middle of January, so this most critical factor to any claim of legitimacy should be up and running as well. Hmmm, wonder who the first big corporate client will be? And what sort of changes are going to be made in the required ad reading requirements of the membership?

A mere 1/2 hour per week spread between the thousands of ads in the YMMSS member site and the big corporate retail ad site doesn't seem like a very good guarantee of much ad exposure to me.

These things are suppose to happen this month. Of course, that's if there aren't any glitches that are beyond the control of YMMSS. After all, we know that these increasing cycle times are only because of the past technical challenges, not because the ponzi is just starting to fall behind in the money game :head: :shake:

Dreamer

February 3rd, 2005, 06:06 PM

So, has the religious fanatic (the more i look at this the more it looks like a religious cult) stated why he is seeking advertisers at 20k members making on average $10/year instead of 100k/100k?

surfer

February 3rd, 2005, 06:43 PM

Well, although quite a few of the members seem to have that mentality, Kim doesn't quite come off that way.

Why would they want to launch the retail site when it seems to be a bit premature. Only one reason, of course. They are struggling to find incoming money as quickly as possible in an attempt to stay afloat.

It looks like the new "in house" payment processor will be through Cash Cards International (http://www.cashcards.net/rep/1030/index.html) which is an operation run by a guy named Steve Renner and works through a bank in St. Kitts with offices in Minneapolis and Honolulu, with the monies being run through Wells Fargo bank out of Minneapolis.

It seems like virtually every one of these people with these processing outfits has some dirt to be dug up. Searches in Google pull up some interesting info about Renner and cashcards.net over the last few years. Not much news in the very recent past however.

Some quick scans of this info doesn't seem to show me too many recent issues, although I did read a post in a forum that stated their card only worked in the US, that they are only valid for a year, and they took over a month to get the cards out. :crazy:

I also read a report about funds just disappearing from accounts. :rolleyes:

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if yet even more issues are now going to arise.

Servers are now in Panama. New IP addresses won't be available until the 17th, so they should be installed during the Belize cruise as planned. At that point, they intend to put the new CashCard/VCash payment system in place.

Yes sir, should be an interesting month. ;)

Dreamer

February 4th, 2005, 05:11 AM

I really hope its a good month for ymmss. I hope they prove me wrong on every acount.

US members are required to submit their SSN number. Thats just scary. Every job I applied for I had to fill out an application, go thru an interview, and not only need a physical copy of my social security card but also a physical copy of my state id. Numbers werent just good enough for them. Plus, every pay check I pay taxes. Even independat contractors have some sort of contractual agreement with the business to perform a certain task at a certain wage. I'm sorry, logging onto a website is not a job.

Now they are going to have a pay processor? Im assuming a security question will be what is mothers maiden name.

This will rank as a pretty darn big identity fraud scam if its not legit. and people are falling for it because they want other people to give them money.

---

Edited part: I forgot. I never had to pay any of my previous bosses a dime. Even the uniform was given to me (those were the horrible days). I cant think of any business plan where the employee, by whatever name you want to call them, has to pay his boss before his boss pays them.

homeworker

February 7th, 2005, 07:00 PM

You Guys are Briljant! :bow:

I have been reading this whole tread and i must say i really like this form of doing due dilligence. And i am saying this as a ymmss member with 4 figures invested :rolleyes: . why? because if Kim is holding its word this will be an enterprise that will chance the world. however it becomes more and more clear to me that there will be goverment interference when ymmss reaches this enormous amounts. they have to keep ymmss low on the radar but thats never possible when Kims company reaches a global mega advertising company.... one member said last time: Kim wants global advertising domination............. with a money doubler? world leaders simply would not allow that i think.

some new inside information:

YMMSS has a new retailer: Mann Travel. they have set up an agreement that every cruises meeting etc and the resort in belize will be managed by mann travel and that 50% of mann travels profit will go in the poul. see al the info at:

http://silversleuth.com/YMMSSMANN.html

i know that their already have been members how booked a vacation.. so they do get results... also members claiming that they will book all holidays from now on with mantravel via ymmss. so these are loyal costumers. even a member already posting about here great previous experience with man travel :) mann travel is getting Alot of attention in YMMSS land..

maybe this will make some retail advertisings rolling? lets wait and see. the upcoming month will be verry verry interesting... and i really want to share with you guys all the inside info you want to know. i love this kind of observing. but please dont tell the ymmss members :rolleyes:

Also Kim has a new employee wich will manage the creating of outside funds. He has an MBA in finance (whatever it may be). their was stated that investments can yield over 19 million A WEEK in 18 months from now... thats a billion a year. he makes this claim together with the fact that he now generates 60.000 a week... have they found a hidden gold pot somewhere? :confused: lets wait and see.

Kim also stats that his 11% of profit is never fed back to the payable account. this will stay the principel for new money generating. so if this is true he has about saying 10.000.000 available in profits. but he wants to use it for the long term... wich indeed makes some sence. but 19 million a week?

also their is being claimed multyple times that the investments Kim makes is on his own risk, because he doesnt have to do this. he takes all the risk......
verry paradoxal if you know that all the money comes from the members and these fund are needed to pay members. while Kim has 10.000.000 in his pocket (rough calculation, maybe one of you can do this better ;))... the members are the only one taking risk, not kim. so this is a verry misleading statement i think.

Well thats it for now i guess. if i got more news i will share it with you guys. Lets have some mind spinning over here :) i like it already. Please give your comments about the news above.

I will keep you guys updated,

Bye for now

Homeworker :)

(p.s. sorry for the bad english, im learning)

homeworker

February 7th, 2005, 07:33 PM

the latest stats:

Processing was completed at approximately 2/2/2005 3:18:06 PM.

Commissions Paid To Date: $69,728,150.98
Average Cycle Days: 130

----
Processing was completed at approximately 2/4/2005 12:37:28 PM.

Commissions Paid To Date: $70,130,620.88
Average Cycle Days: 130
-----

Processing was completed at approximately 2/7/2005 12:57:06 PM.

Commissions Paid To Date: $70,589,195.48
Average Cycle Days: 133

their is indeed a strange thing about buying epc: its addicting.... maybe comes close to brainwashing but the buying epc from ymmss is somehow magicly atracting..... other then other doublers. where doese this strange difference come from?

Dreamer

February 7th, 2005, 09:22 PM

They didn't really care for my question there, so maybe you can provide some insight.

Why are they aiming for retailers now instead of at the 100k/100k mark?

What angle are they going to use to push their site to advertisers? 100k/100k sounded good, but the truth is its really only 20k/$1000 with roughly half of them not making a penny.

As for Mann Travel:
Mann Travel has also agreed to deposit 50% of all profit from YMMSS individual members travel needs to the Commission Pool. This means that, as long as you use Mann Travel to make your individual business and family vacation reservations you will be supporting your YMMSS business and the YMMSS Commission Pool.

Lets do the math real quick. At todays rate, lets say the average person will spend $100 a year on air travel. I think thats a good estimate. There are people like my brother who fly 5 days a week out of 7 across the US, than there are people who might travel once a decade.

So, at 20,000 members, if they all decide to use Mann Travel and ditch their favorite airlines that they have have been accumulating frequent flyer miles etc, $2million will go into Mann Travels pocket. The average profit for travel companies is probably about 7%. So, thats $140,000. Half that and they will be putting back into the system $70,000. I think most businesses will go for that. No up front cost. No loss. $70,000 to get an additional $2million in sales isn't that bad.

But, did you see that fundamental flaw here. The site wants a majority of advertising to pay for incomes of the members. Mann Travel isn't advertising. They have an agreement. Alot of businesses do similiar agreements. But with this model, For every $1 that a person takes out of the site, they are only seeing 3.5 cents being bought back into it.

Members will have much better luck reinvesting their money in a doubler than supporting mann travel.

And, don't get me wrong. I dont know anything about the site to say anything negative about them. They are a legit company, but the ARE NOT advertising! It doesn't take an MBA in finance to figure that one out.

Before I close this, does this sound scary at all? Kim said advertisers will be lining up to want to advertise to its site. But, its first company on board isn't advertising but has an agreement. So, Kim in all his wisdom, wasnt even about to secure a company for its first advertising.

homeworker

February 8th, 2005, 07:38 AM

I think they are aiming for retailers because they need to impress. if they only keep doubling money until he has the 100k/100k he is still giving them a fantasy. now people are thinking: this is for real. he is pulling retailers... a little trust. i dont know yet what the retail web site will look like and what angle they are aproaching this. honestly i do think they can get some big money with the retail site...... but sustaining ymmss would be a different story

I see the flaw in the mann travel agreement. thanks for doing the math.
one thing: i would say: people how are a ymmss member spend $100 at traveling, this money will gow out of the site anyway (saying they only use ymmss money), so if something goes back its always better + a company is beeing helpt for custumors... does this makes sence what i am saying?
still the bottum line is: they dont sell ads.

but still: since it may be a nice agreement for mann travel dont you think it can atrract some real retailers? just wondering

and what about the claim that Kim wil be generation 19 million a week for the commision pool from his profit? it would meen he has to sell 19 million a week less retail ads, wich sounds good... however it sounds a little mindboggling to me... from what i know from the trade secrets... Kim said once something about hedges and financing. verry vague...

homeworker

February 8th, 2005, 08:52 AM

ycchen

February 8th, 2005, 11:54 AM

....
and what about the claim that Kim wil be generation 19 million a week for the commision pool from his profit? it would meen he has to sell 19 million a week less retail ads, wich sounds good... however it sounds a little mindboggling to me... from what i know from the trade secrets... Kim said once something about hedges and financing. verry vague...

homeworker, thanks for sharing the information. So far, I could only find claim without any evidence that Kim could make 19 million a week! If YMMSS is not a ponzi, then the money should come from somewhere, and not from its members. Of course, running a 19 million/week ponzi is also a spectacle! :bow:

(Note: We don't call any program ponzi or pyramid IF the program could show some solid evidences that they have other sources of income.)

Advertisement income seems to be "more promising" for YMMSS than all other weak claims, but so far it still does not add up. :nono:

I am afraid that simply by showing cycling date or someone getting paid proves nothing. As we all know very well that any successful pyramid/ponzi pays "on time" before they crash. The only differences is the excuses they use to explain the growing cycle time and their failure at the end. :)

I couldn't see why the cycling time could go back to 90 days unless KIM gives discount on EPC on Valentine Day? :D

surfer

February 8th, 2005, 12:12 PM

You Guys are Briljant! :bow:
LOL, or not.

I have been reading this whole tread and i must say i really like this form of doing due dilligence. And i am saying this as a ymmss member with 4 figures invested :rolleyes: . why? because if Kim is holding its word this will be an enterprise that will chance the world. however it becomes more and more clear to me that there will be goverment interference when ymmss reaches this enormous amounts. they have to keep ymmss low on the radar but thats never possible when Kims company reaches a global mega advertising company.... one member said last time: Kim wants global advertising domination............. with a money doubler? world leaders simply would not allow that i think.
My due diligence was done quite a while ago, but I do believe this thread has some good fodder for those who are attempting DD, since not much real info is readily available.

Worry about government interference, LOL. Yet another BS line from those who run ponzis. Yeah, when you break the law, i.e., run a ponzi scheme, there is a big chance there will eventually be "government interference".

I guess people should leave the U.S. because they may be wrongly incarcerated for murder. It happens, you know. :eek: And I'd say the percentages are probably about the same as legal businesses being shut down as illegal. What a joke. Personally, I'd be more likely to believe a simple argument for better tax advantages outside the U.S. than that load of crap.

some new inside information:

YMMSS has a new retailer: Mann Travel. they have set up an agreement that every cruises meeting etc and the resort in belize will be managed by mann travel and that 50% of mann travels profit will go in the poul. see al the info at:

http://silversleuth.com/YMMSSMANN.html

i know that their already have been members how booked a vacation.. so they do get results... also members claiming that they will book all holidays from now on with mantravel via ymmss. so these are loyal costumers. even a member already posting about here great previous experience with man travel :) mann travel is getting Alot of attention in YMMSS land..
Yep, saw that. And really not a bad idea as a good short term infusion of small amounts of funds generated by those lucky ones who can afford to travel on YMMSS income.

But aside from what Dreamer mentioned, this creates another quandry. With so many products and services in the world being available only regionally or nationally, what would one of the best services be to solicit retail ads for?

Truthfully, there are still so many holes that need to be plugged in this whole "retail ad" concept.

maybe this will make some retail advertisings rolling? lets wait and see. the upcoming month will be verry verry interesting... and i really want to share with you guys all the inside info you want to know. i love this kind of observing. but please dont tell the ymmss members :rolleyes:
I see little, if any, impact on retail advertising, as it isn't a retail advertiser.
Also Kim has a new employee wich will manage the creating of outside funds. He has an MBA in finance (whatever it may be). their was stated that investments can yield over 19 million A WEEK in 18 months from now... thats a billion a year. he makes this claim together with the fact that he now generates 60.000 a week... have they found a hidden gold pot somewhere? :confused: lets wait and see.
Oh boy, another financial genius in the world. :bow: Right you are, a golden pot. Are these potential returns, or has Kim also found investments that are magically guaranteed these types of returns with no chance for failure. Maybe he's investing into Reality Millions and partnering up with the mysterious Midas, LOL.

Kim also stats that his 11% of profit is never fed back to the payable account. this will stay the principel for new money generating. so if this is true he has about saying 10.000.000 available in profits. but he wants to use it for the long term... wich indeed makes some sence. but 19 million a week?
The more I think about it, the more I believe it's nearly impossible to calculate how much is really paid out. More on this later.

also their is being claimed multyple times that the investments Kim makes is on his own risk, because he doesnt have to do this. he takes all the risk......
verry paradoxal if you know that all the money comes from the members and these fund are needed to pay members. while Kim has 10.000.000 in his pocket (rough calculation, maybe one of you can do this better ;))... the members are the only one taking risk, not kim. so this is a verry misleading statement i think.
Exactly. There is no risk for Kim. He's pulling in money hand over fist from the members.

(p.s. sorry for the bad english, im learning)
Me too. ;)

surfer

February 8th, 2005, 12:50 PM

They didn't really care for my question there, so maybe you can provide some insight.

Saw that, LOL. Hope the troll reference didn't offend you.

Why are they aiming for retailers now instead of at the 100k/100k mark?

What angle are they going to use to push their site to advertisers? 100k/100k sounded good, but the truth is its really only 20k/$1000 with roughly half of them not making a penny.

Good questions. It seems like they probably have an "in" with a few small businesses that are willing to give them a shot. In their current state, I'd have to guess the price would be pretty cheap and they have a loyal, albeit small, core of members who are willing to do virtually anything to help keep this ship afloat. Hell, I might even check out their ad rates if and when the retail site launches.
Before I close this, does this sound scary at all? Kim said advertisers will be lining up to want to advertise to its site. But, its first company on board isn't advertising but has an agreement. So, Kim in all his wisdom, wasnt even about to secure a company for its first advertising.
Actually, no. I have a feeling that this may have been an existing relationship and it creates a win-win for Kim and Mann Travel. Mann Travel will get some decent business out of it and Kim is able to create the illusion of a retail advertiser without even getting one. A little boost in confidence to help inspire more EPC purchases.

surfer

February 8th, 2005, 01:24 PM

update from kim:

Cycle Time Update
07 Feb 2005 - ADMIN-Kim
Last edited by ADMIN-Kim, 08 Feb 2005
Kim's comments on cycle time.

Hello!

I have been reviewing the numbers trying to determine just where I think the cycle time will go. I am always leery of doing this because one never knows when Murphy's Law is going to raise its ugly head. Such was the case last week when IntGold implemented a new validation requirement which reduced dramatically both Sponsor Ads and EPC purchases. I cannot stress enough to validate your IntGold Account. It is really not that hard.

I believe the cycle times will continue to rise to between 150 to 160 days. We are about 8 weeks from paying commissions for the November 18th 2004 purchases. Once we hit that payment date for processing, I expect cycle days to drop quite rapidly to the 115 to 125 day range. After that, I expect the cycle days to gradually descend to the 90 day range which the program is designed to maintain when running smoothly.

While our objective is and has always been to keep the cycle time at 90 days or less, we are on far better ground now to indicate to new members and prospects that this is our goal. I sincerely believe it will be reached after the predictable rise in cycle has run its course.

Sincerely,

Kim E. Inman

----

lets wait and see, any comments?

Murphy's Law. :shake: More like the laws of mathematics. :head:

Because of the constant and growing concern about cycle times on the forums, Kim was essentially forced to give some sort of statement.

As is typical with virtually all of these schemes, it just helps buy more time for those running them, putting more money in their pockets.

I give the edge to "Murphy's Law" in this scenario.

Based on an approximate true payout of 25%, YMMSS would need to generate $250K - $500K/week in revenue just to maintain current cycle times. But as I mentioned earlier, it's really hard to even guestimate what is actually being paid out.

Without substantial outside revenue, I certainly don't see any rapid drop of 25-45 days in the cycle time in the future, and certainly no downward trend to anywhere near 90 days. I see a temporary drop of a maximum of 5 to 10 days when the downtime from the site launch is cycled, then right back up. Retail revenue, if it ever comes, may slow the upward trend, but it will not reverse it.

BTW, while new member purchases weren't possible during the new site launch, subscription purchases were still being processed. So that whole line about no sales coming in during launch is an exaggeration.

surfer

February 8th, 2005, 02:34 PM

I mentioned earlier about how hard it is to figure out what the true payouts are from YMMSS. I've seen estimates in the 25%-33% range being generally accepted as truth.

Just curious as to if anyone really knows how the stated "commission payouts" are really calculated.

My thoughts on it are pretty basic.

When a $10 EPC cycles to $20, they claim $20 as part of the commission payouts when it truth, no money has actually left the system. This would be the same with $20, $40, $80, and $160 EPCs.

There are only 3 traditional scenarios where money actually leaves the system.

Recurring $160 so that when it cycles to $320, they get paid $160 and $160 goes back to the bottom of the matrix, with a commission payout claim of $320 in the stats.

Recurring $320 that cycles to $640, paying $320 with $320 going to the bottom and a statistical payout claim of $640.

And the newest option of $320 EPC set to recurring $160 that cycles to $640, member gets paid $160, $160 gets absorded back into the system, and $320 cycles to the bottom.

So if each one of these were to occur, the true totals would be as follows:

$10 cycles to $20, nothing paid out, $20 added to the stats
$20 cycles to $40, nothing paid out, $40 added to the stats
$40 cycles to $80, nothing paid out, $80 added to the stats
$80 cycles to $160, nothing paid out, $160 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, nothing paid out, $320 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, $160 paid out, $320 added to the stats
$320 cycles to $640, $320 paid out, $640 added to the stats

With that, you have $480 real money actually paid out, but YMMSS is claiming that $1580 has actually been paid, or roughly 30.4% true payout.

Throw in someone who is just letting a $320 ride and then you have $480 out of a claim of $2220 actually being paid out, or roughly 21.6%

The last reported commission total payout for 2004 was a little over $60 million.

Applying those two figures to last year's claimed payout, you would have a true payout ranging from just under $13 million to about $18.25 million. The year ended with around 17000 members, so you would have an average "spend" of between $764 to $1072 if the percentages lie within that realm.

Having seen quite a few people jumping in with thousands of dollars, others taking out loans and maxing out credit cards to join, many letting their $320s ride to "secure" their future income(further reducing the real percentage paid out), it's very easy to see how this ponzi has stayed afloat as long as it has. Hell, just a tiny little $10 weekly EPC contributes over $500 to the pot and at the current cycle time doesn't have to be paid out on for over 2 years.

Of course, the rising cycle times are a natural side effect of the fact that more and more people are having their EPCs get to a matured status and no longer need to throw any of their own money into the kitty. They are merely collecting from other members who still feel the need to invest and from new members being suckered in.

Also, there was recently a post by a member who was in the glamorous 6 figure earning bracket who stated that because of the increase in cycle times, he's now not so sure about that being the case anymore.

Many members were pushing for the magical number of 79 matured positions that would put you in a lovely 6 figure income based on a 90 day cycle. Unless they are willing to continue to invest in the ponzi creating more matured positions using their own money, their income will actually continue to decrease. Essentially, their income has been cut by about 1/3 and continuing to go down as cycles get longer and longer.

There is absolutely no way around it. Every dollar that a ponzi member invests eventually becomes a part of the financial burden for the system when and if it ever makes it back around to cycle again.

The evidence continues to stare everyone in the face. The membership practically doubled in size over the last 4 month span and cycle times continue to rise. Totally amazing how the obvious can be so overlooked. :head: :head: :head: Murphy's law my arse. ;)

Any other thoughts out there on those numbers?

homeworker

February 8th, 2005, 07:47 PM

how can i use the qoute option? :rolleyes:

Tanks for the math reply surfer, it is indeed true. and thanks for the other replys :). only one thing: you do have the option to claim via website to get you doubled money out (what i will be doing now when i read this treat :rolleyes: )

so this is (sample) 1000 put in, 2000 out.. so thats 100% payout and i think allot of members with me will be getting all their money out via this option. do you think Kim will try to stop this? and what would it do with the cycle time in the end if allot of members now all claiming via website with their 10 20 40 80 purschases. some big investors may now pull all the 640s out (it is an option!) and leave ymmss...

any comments?

homeworker

February 8th, 2005, 07:53 PM

how can i use the qoute option? :rolleyes:
any comments?

quote button found :)

one more thing about the huge income: members say you have to use you epc, so if you earn a million dollar a year you have to post about a million dollar worth of ads on ymmss... wich leaves you with an extreme daytime job... yeah well just to mention it :)l....

Dreamer

February 8th, 2005, 08:00 PM

Hey surfer...I thought you were a member of ymmss? Sometimes your posts seem to totally bust their system? So, how come your involved? Just for fun see what happens?

Was that you with the troll reference? Nah, i didnt get offended. I asked a question that I'm sure people would like to know. I didn't say anything negative. Whats the angle? Whats the gimic? Your saying this system is so great, why are you trying to get retail now instead of at 100k/100k? To an outsider who looks at it as a scam, the only answer i can come up with is he is getting desperate to try to get things to work.

I just appreciate how my thread was deleted soon after. What nice guys. It was a very legimitate question in my opinion.

As for the advertisors, remember, the goal is to have most of the advertisers to pay off the memberbase. Ok, lets see. I'm raking in 10b a year from my retail advertisors. I'll just close down the site a year early and nobody will mind, and I'll become one of the richest men in the world. Anyways, back to my point.

With a consertative estimate of 90% of all revenue will come from retail ads, a 10b year industry would require a 1b year in other sources of revenue. There isn't alot of 1b industries. Even saying that 99% of all revenue will come from retail, its still hard to come up with 100m per year elsewhere.

Anyways, in order for that to work, 100% of all advertisers must be willing to lose money on the site. That doesn't sound promissing. Usually businesses choose advertisers that will make them money (this site wont) or that will be seen by many people (20k isn't alot. Heck placing an ad in a local newspaper could potentially be seen by more than 100k, whereas placing an ad on ymmss would cap the possibility at 100k, but a more honest answer is probably more like 1k). I really dont see what any benefit that any advertiser will gain by using ymmss.

If ymmss was really about pulling in the money, and mr kim has 10m in his pocke that somebody suggested (but according to ur numbers which sound more right its probably closer to 3m) why didn't he pay for a spot on the superbowl? Why doesn't he pull a don lapre and start making infomertials? Now that would be smart. I guess hes too much of a genius to be smart?

Anyways, a cost of doing business is to give discounts to priviliged customers. Coupons are a way people do it. Similiar businesses will hook up with each other, offering package deals and they split the profit. For instance, a travel agent might make a special arrangement with a hotel chain to put together as a package deal if some kind of profit sharing happens. There is nothing wrong with that.

That is ALL Mann is doing. It should not be difficult at all to find 100 businesses in a month who would be willing to kick back profits to the site. Hell, I'd kick back 50% of my profits to their memberbase if there was no money out of my pocket. Is that the type of businesses he is going after hoping nobody will realize that they aren't paying advertiser fees?

There is a big difference from advertisers paying 100% of the money going out of the system (10b/year) than 3%. This was supposed to be such a big deal. I hope this isn't the best he has, cause its just not good enough.

Did i read right that he hired somebody who has a MBA in Finance. Why not find somebody who has like a degree in advertising?

homeworker

February 8th, 2005, 08:04 PM

I mentioned earlier about how hard it is to figure out what the

$10 cycles to $20, nothing paid out, $20 added to the stats
$20 cycles to $40, nothing paid out, $40 added to the stats
$40 cycles to $80, nothing paid out, $80 added to the stats
$80 cycles to $160, nothing paid out, $160 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, nothing paid out, $320 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, $160 paid out, $320 added to the stats
$320 cycles to $640, $320 paid out, $640 added to the stats

correction?:

$10 cycles to $20, nothing paid out, $20 added to the stats
$20 cycles to $40, nothing paid out, $40 added to the stats
$40 cycles to $80, nothing paid out, $80 added to the stats
$80 cycles to $160, nothing paid out, $160 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, nothing paid out, $320 added to the stats
$320 cycles to $640, $320 paid out, $640 added to the stats

$320 paid out - stats say $1260

or:

$10 cycles to $20, nothing paid out, $20 added to the stats
$20 cycles to $40, nothing paid out, $40 added to the stats
$40 cycles to $80, nothing paid out, $80 added to the stats
$80 cycles to $160, nothing paid out, $160 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, $160 paid out, $320 added to the stats
$160 cycles to $320, nothing paid out, $320 added to the stats
$320 cycles to $640, $320 paid out, $640 added to the stats

payout: $480 stats say: $1580

Dreamer

February 8th, 2005, 08:06 PM

Don't mind us to much here. I think we are geniunely more interested in the negative aspects showing that it will fail. The members are really nice and helpful. Kim appears to try to be honest. A majority of people there doesn't seem to want to lie to you to scam you, but I'm always hesitant about everybodys answer of just give us money. Even one member said to buy one $320 epc instead of $10. Maybe he's seeing the site fail also.

surfer

February 9th, 2005, 01:16 AM

@ homeworker.

Yes, I am aware of the claim via website option. At present, it's just not the norm. I do have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to be used a bit more in the near term.

I think part of the reason Kim allowed himself to be coerced into a statement giving at least an attempt at a time line on cycle times may be because he has probably been seeing more of the claim via website option being used lately.

Other than trying to buy time with his comments, I don't believe Kim will try to stop people pulling out. I think the system may take care of that all by itself. ;)

What will it do to cycle times if people start pulling all of their money? It will simply speed up the ending that is already in progress. Right now, for example, it's taking 6 or 7 days of revenue at the current pace to cover one days worth of commissions due from positions that were purchased or cycled back in late September. That's why you're seeing a rise of 5 to 6 days in cycle time every week.

With or without people pulling out, eventually it will start to take 8 days or more of revenue to pay one days commissions. At that point, it really starts to crumble because you start to lose 7 days or more each week.

Currently, even though cycle times continue to rise, people are at least able to believe that they are one or two days closer to cycling after each week goes by.

When daily revenue starts to equal 1/8 or less of the required amount for commissions, things actually start to go in reverse. If you start the day 30 days away from your cycle date, you could end the day 31 days away. Hard to fathom, huh? :crazy:

Keep your eye on the commission payout amounts. The last processing amount only equalled about $153,000/day in "payments", well below the average. It was probably a combination of less new money coming in and more people taking "real" money out.

Regarding having more EPCs than you have time to post ads. Were you aware of the new Platinum ad forum that requires 2500 EPCs. If the cycle time were still at 90 days, you would need 782 fully matured EPCs to make just over a million/year. That would equal 25,024 EPCs. So you would only have to post 10 Platinum ads to get rid of your EPCs every cycle.

Also, not quite sure what your correction to the numbers I posted was about. Can you clarify?

surfer

February 10th, 2005, 03:08 AM

@ Dreamer

LOL :eek: If I were a member, it would be purely
for investigative purposes. I have absolutely no
interest in earning dirty money from a ponzi scheme,
although I've been aware of YMMSS for well over a
year.

lol It definitely wasn't me with the troll
reference. You won't see me posting on the forums
there.

I do believe they are going to attempt to bring in
advertiser revenues, but it really just doesn't
matter. The numbers will just never ad( ;) ) up.

This will be over and above the Mann Travel
arrangement. And like you, I'd partner up in a
heartbeat for guaranteed revenue at no cost to me.

Just to stabilize cycle times right now, they would
have to jump out of the gates as an unknown commodity
generating $1 to $2 million/month. Of course, next
cycle, the necessary revenue doubles. Boy, talk about
nightmare quotas for a sales team. Glad I don't have
a job there, LOL.

Yep, Kim could have run his own Super Bowl ad. And
what a perfect year and venue for it. This year was
one where the entertainment and commercials were toned
down after last years mess, geared towards being more
family friendly. What better time to launch an ad
campaign for a wholesome, Christian based worldwide
business than during what is the most watched
television program every year and is a program that
people actually look forward to watching the
commercials instead of clicking away from them.

Not a chance, but a fun thought. :D Of course, we
know these types of businesses prefer to fly as low
under the radar as they possibly can. Wouldn't want
mean ole "Big Brother" to come snooping around.

Yes, I believe the financial guru who has helped Kim
find that magical investment that is apparently
guaranteed to put about $1 billion per year into the
kitty roughly 18 months from now was named Mark. He
spoke on one of the conference calls I listened to

Kim either has or is supposedly organizing an
advertising sales team to get the ball rolling. They
had better be the best of the best, that's for sure.
Of course, if they were to just plop in $50K in EPCs,
they wouldn't have to bother working as salespeople, LOL.

Dreamer

February 10th, 2005, 05:03 AM

Im just wondering if kim thinks that mann is advertising with them, and if that is what he means by advertisers? If he gave me a week I could sign up 100 businesses that would be willing to do that. Thats not advertising. Thats more of a partnership (not in the classical sence though).

Sidetrack. Does anybody have any information on this Beliz Resort? When it was sold, how much it was sold for, who the new owner is, etc? i can't find any information anywhere.

---

Edited part: Actually the only thing I came across was that the site for the hotel is from some person in PA (I think) and was bought in 1998 expiring 2010. The database was last updated on July 2004 and the current administrative contact is a nancy in new holland pa. But, this doesn't give any useful information as to the details of this sale (if there was one) and the reasons.

surfer

February 10th, 2005, 11:53 AM

Actually Dreamer, I do not believe that Kim thinks that the arrangement with Mann is advertising. I believe it was simply a partnership of convenience. But we'll know shortly just what type of advertisers he can come up with.

The way it's presented, we are led to believe that Kim(YMMSS) owns the resort either in whole or in part. Not quite certain of the exact status. One of these days, I may give a call to the resort and just ask who owns it.

homeworker

February 10th, 2005, 08:05 PM

@ homeworker.

Regarding having more EPCs than you have time to post ads. Were you aware of the new Platinum ad forum that requires 2500 EPCs. If the cycle time were still at 90 days, you would need 782 fully matured EPCs to make just over a million/year. That would equal 25,024 EPCs. So you would only have to post 10 Platinum ads to get rid of your EPCs every cycle.

didnt thought of that one :rolleyes:

@ homeworker.
Also, not quite sure what your correction to the numbers I posted was about. Can you clarify?

come on surfer; look at the numbers from your and my post, you can figure it out ;)

You know, i really thought i could make honest money with ymmss and doubted alot and changed income options all the time. after reading this thread it became clear to me and i will leave ymmss as soon as i can.

but the thing is: if you join and enter the office forum you can see how bad it really is. People their trust ymmss 100% and truly believe they will make big money. even now the cycle time rises i see a huge amount of people going on blind faith with ymmss.....

homeworker

February 10th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Surfer and Dreamer:

Could you both give your vieuws and oppinion about where ymmss is going in the next couple of months and this year.

do you think cycle times will continiou to rise and get out of hand?
will ymmss still be here 1 year from now, and if so, how healthy will it be?
Do you think Kim will ever close down ymmss?

how will this business develop in the next years... just your thought and fantasy.. i am curious.

ycchen

February 10th, 2005, 10:09 PM

Surfer and Dreamer, are you interested in online consulting? If so, we can open an online consulting site and start selling portals or ECP, or PCE or CEP... :D

Kim is obviusly struggling to keep his ponzi from collapsing, and it will. Just a matter of time. Do you think Kim is thinking of "transforming his membership base ponzi" into some legitimate online business? I don't think he can pull it off with such a big liabilities stuck in the ponzi, right?

homeworker, you know why cycling date is crucial in keeping a ponzi going? Because if you cycling date is left uncontrol (grow exponentially due to the mathematics imperative of any ponzi/pyramid cash flow logic), then many supporters will hesistate to continue purchasing EPC, especially those early birds who have made tons of money already. Without these early birds keeping the ship floating in order to suck more money out of newbies, YMMSS will collapse instantly.

Since YMMSS has NOTHING to convince its long-term members (and also newbies) that their business model is sustainable (with sustainable income, from advertisement or real estate or whatever), then it is just a matter of time when some big supporters pull the plug, and the domino effect will bury YMMSS.

I think many big supporters might have already stop buying EPC, then, KIM have only two choices. One is to put his own profit back into the pool, or use all kind of excuses to make the business looks like "business as usual".

It's very difficult to predict when a successul ponzi will collapse becuase it could happen anytime without any warning. Why? In this way, the con artist could keep the most profit! :)

surfer

February 11th, 2005, 01:35 AM

come on surfer; look at the numbers
from your and my post, you can figure it out ;)

Was too late/early, LOL.

You know, i really thought i could
make honest money with ymmss and doubted alot and
changed income options all the time. after reading
this thread it became clear to me and i will leave
ymmss as soon as i can.

Everyone has to do whatever they feel is right for
them.

Making honest money. Hmmm. So many people get sucked
in to all of this easy money crap. You have MLM,
which can be a legit way but is marketed like it's so
damn easy. So tons of people get misled into that.
Then you have all of these illegal and destined to
fail HYIPs, doublers, etc. that prey on a lot of the
people that were misled by the MLM world with their no
recruiting, no selling stuff.

Earning money, offline or online, isn't easy for most.

but the thing is: if you join and
enter the office forum you can see how bad it really
is. People their trust ymmss 100% and truly believe
they will make big money. even now the cycle time
rises i see a huge amount of people going on blind
faith with ymmss.....

Only a small portion of the YMMSS member base is even
active in the forums. Many of the members are from
the HYIP arena anyway, so they know it's only a matter
of time. Most of them probably don't even bother with
the forums.

But for those poor souls who actually believe it's a legit
business, they are getting one major snow job.

Just the fact that the cycle time continues to rise one
or two days nearly every time they process should be
enough of a clue. But people just want to accept Kim's
excuses. Other than the fact that it's a ponzi scheme,
there is no other logical reason why cycle times would
rise more than one day a week.

surfer

February 11th, 2005, 02:16 AM

@ homeworker

Who really knows, but I can't see any reason why cycle times would take any sort of drastic downturn. Like I mentioned earlier, the retail side would have to shoot out of the gate bringing in $1 to $2 million/month just to stabilize the cycle times.

Of course, even if the first ad is to Bob's Bait and Tackle Shop for $50, the rah rah section will think it's great and mealworm sales will shoot through the roof.

I don't know why people think the new servers are going to be such a big boost. As it stands now, only 1 day per week maximum should be lost. So I guess when the servers go up, cycle time may only rise 4 or 5 days/week instead of 5 or 6. Of course, by then the cycle time should be about 140 days, maybe more.

Mid to late April is when the cycle would be catching up to the new website downtime if the current increase rate holds steady. However, by then the cycle times would be closer to 180 days.

Will YMMSS be here in a year? Who knows. I doubt it, but stranger things have happened. He's managed to hold it together for over 2 1/2 years so far, but math will win in the end. If Kim somehow managed to have even a remotely successful start to this alleged retail ad site, many on the forums would probably be inspired to go on an EPC spending spree.

I'll be keeping my eye out to see if any discrepancies start to pop up between stated cycle times and payments to members.

If Kim isn't just yet another highly praised con man, I don't think he'll just shut it down and disappear. It will just implode out of his control.

No matter what, it will be interesting to watch it play out over the next few months.

@ ycchen

Just so we don't call the PCPs, as that might draw some unwanted attention. :)

Dreamer

February 12th, 2005, 05:07 PM

Its hard to say where it might be. google ymmss and scam, and MW is one of the few sites that even bother discussing it. Most sites say everybody has always been paid so it must not be a scam, however, any good scam takes the end money (when there is a 10b company) rather than when the company is only "worth" 70m. Of course, devide that by 3 to get the real worth of the site.

I dont see it crashing anytime soon, because if you bored yourself reading any of that success dribble they always tell people to read, you'd see that it appears to be some religious fanatical cult that he's built.

But look at the "facts" if you would. He is misrepresentating how much was paid out by double adding. He probably knew he couldn't expect to see more than 20k members, so thats why he had a goal of 100k so people wouldn't leave his site.

Anytime he says anything, it seems, something is down the road in 18 months. Why 18 months? So people who invest "today" (whenever today is) can turn $790 into $100,000 still no problem.

I dont think hes ever going to have any real advertisers advertising on his site, so there went his pipe dream of ending world poverty because advertisers want nothing better to do than to pay everybody in the world money to read their adds. So, at best he will probably only get other arrangements like mann travel.

I think some of the members are slowly seeing the failure. As I mentioned before, the answer to all qustions was to invest $21. Now some members are saying you should invest $320.

And why $21? Well, $10 goes into the pool and $11 goes into kims grubby littl hands. So, even when that doubles in 4 months It hasn't quite had to pay out what was taken in. So, have to wait another 6 months before he has to make good on that purchase.

Why did he mention that after 160 days it will drop down again. He probably quickly did some numbers and realized about that time there will be alot of payout coming. So, if its $5m in payouts, hes expecting to pay out $5m and put back into the system another $5m. So, I guess 160 days will be a good mark to see if the early birds will be starting to withdraw in full.

---

But, on an unrelated subect:

Lets say this is all legit. I'm 25 years old, I've been with YMMSS for 2 years. I've turned $770 into $100,000 reaccuring. If I stay with the program for 40 years until I "retire", the site will pay me $4m over the life of the program.

For some reason thats not being greedy. But come on. I make minimum wage right now. If I only withdraw $25k this year, that will add $75k/year for 45 years. Not too bad. And $25k for this year is significiently more than what I'm making now flipping burgers. So, if I sacrifice this first year, electing not to take that extra $75k this year will give me about under $7m over 40 years.

I know, maybe its silly to talk about 40 years, but thats what I look at. Where will I be when I retire?

Lets take that same scenario, but every year we 'll give ourselves a $25k bonus. At the 10 year mark we made $250,000 with a recurring yearly salary of 51,500,000. Would you be willing to only make $25k more than last year so after 10 years you'd live off of 50m/year? At the 20 year mark Our salary is $500,000, however if we want to start having our normal salary, it will be $52,429,350,000. Now remember, I'm making minimum wage right now, so I'm taking home about $15000. Is it unreasonable to only withdraw $25k the first year, etc? Not for me. And, if I chose to retire in 20 years, my annual income, since I sacrificed so much, will be just about $50billion a year.

Year 30: My income is $750,000, and if I chose to retire, my annual will be: $53,687,000,000,000, which I could live off of easily. Thats $50 trillion dollars a year! Wow!

Year 40: I'm retiring now. So, I'm going to accept my final salary of $1,000,000 and just live the rest of my life off of YMMSS. that will be about 54,975,600,000,000,000. Whats after trillion again? Heck, I can live the rest of my life off of $50,000 trillion a year. I figure I'll live to 85, so thats lots of money!

People there say you shouldnt look at astromotical amounts of money because nobody will do that. If your making minimum wage, wouldn't you forgo $100,000 a year and only take $25k the first year just so you can make $175,000 a year? I know I would. And you do that for a few years and you can make $1million a year. Thats not unreasonable to think?

But, that is the best way to test out a program. use their own math against them. People there are already talking about retiring and living of ymmss cause its so difficult to read advertisements. Well, if they are planning on retiring, how can ymmss pay them all that money? They can't. so, its not a legit program.

sisco50

February 12th, 2005, 08:42 PM

Dreamer

Why would you calculate 40 years into the future when you say it is a scam. A scam will not be around for 40 years so the figures are meaningless anyway. Were you bored again? lol

Dreamer

February 12th, 2005, 08:55 PM

IF it wasnt a scam. IF it a legit business.

deckhead2

February 14th, 2005, 08:37 PM

i lost my Clearout Club Buyer's Guide website can you help get my Clearout Club Buyer's Guide thankxs

homeworker

February 21st, 2005, 09:35 AM

well this is how i look at it:

i dont think Kim is a con man. then it is more: a man with a vision and a bad business model... maybe not smart but not a con man. ;)

thats also the reason why he will never shut down ymmss i think, i think he will never stop the ponzi. now what would happen if everybody stopt making purshases and pulling their money out:

the cycle time will rise extreme but still ymmss can cycle one day in about 5 to 10 weeks. as Kim claims his money is now generating $60.000 a week for the commision pool. ymmss will never stop cycling..... even when nobody purchases anymore ymmss is still able to payout daily, thats quite a trick dont you tink? ok, obiusly people would be dissapointed and leave but ymmss does not stop paying.

if you take it to the extreme you can say: what if all members would leave ymmss. it takes Kim maybe 5 or 10 years to pay all the people off..... and then you would have a ymmss with a complete new matrix...... without positions and a comission payable account wich is growing weekly..... i would want to get in to that.....hhmmm am i over filosifing? please think about it dreamer and surfer and the others... like to hear your oppinions.

so i figured out: Kim will never shut down ymmss and probably ymmss will be here in the coming years... i truly think so.... the only question would be: how healthy is it.... lets wait and see :)

Dreamer

February 21st, 2005, 01:00 PM

numbersman

February 21st, 2005, 10:19 PM

What happens if everyone reinvests?

$100 invested, Kim takes his 25%
$75 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$56.25 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$42.18 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$31.64 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
.
.
etc...

Kim makes $100 and $400 has been put in the cycle. Since there is close to $75 million in payouts now, Kim has been given control of $20 - $25 million but I'm guessing that over two thirds of the theoretical money that has been payed out is still in the cycle.

Aha! Kim gets most of the money!

What would you do with $20 - $25 million??

homeworker

February 23rd, 2005, 04:38 AM

What happens if everyone reinvests?

$100 invested, Kim takes his 25%
$75 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$56.25 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$42.18 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
$31.64 reinvested, Kim takes his 25%
.
.
etc...

hhhmm interesting thinking. can you clarify the numbers a bit more? i am going to think about this one.

Kim makes $100 and $400 has been put in the cycle. Since there is close to $75 million in payouts now, Kim has been given control of $20 - $25 million but I'm guessing that over two thirds of the theoretical money that has been payed out is still in the cycle.

Aha! Kim gets most of the money!

hhhmm interesting numbers and thinking. i am going to think about this one a little longer... can you clarify the numbers a bit more?

What would you do with $20 - $25 million??

i would never work again, lol

but seriously. i am stil banking on the fact that kim is not a true con artist. if he is not then i am glad Kim has this amount of money ;) dont you think you can generate $60.000 a week if you have $20 million? but i also like to see proof of that. Kim is the only one knowing "the real" numbers... and that bothers me too.

homeworker

February 23rd, 2005, 05:02 AM

I would just like to see any proof that $60,000 is being paid per week. Thats the problem I have with the system. If he can produce a daily report to show how much money is put into the system and by whom, and how much money is taken out and by whom, than I would start to change my mind. And, not just a run down, but a transaction by transaction of all the purchases, kinda like a cash register receipt..

Without such evidence, its easy to make up numbers that sound good just to keep members talking to say how wonderful the program is.

I mean come on...$60k a week is put into the system by him? Most people dont make $60k/year so why not just stop putting the money in the system and just give up the system?

i am trying to get more info about why this is secret and if they can change that. seeing forward to the reply.... i also like to know exactly where the money goes.

On the surface, your right, he doesnt appear to be a con man, just a business man with a pretty stupid business model that is doomed to fail. But after spending time in the forums and reading those stupid success notes, I'm willing to bank that he is a con man..

Well the succes notes are from esto. i think he is more the con man. i also find them verry stupid. however i do believe Kim is a man with verry stronge moral values and can indeed handle that much money.
Many people do start programs with a good intention at first. when big money comes in it seems to be verry hard to keep giving it away. personally i do think Kim does this. bet then again, i also like to see some proof.

I am personally getting sick and tired of hearing people align themselves with a religion. Im not that much of a religious person but when you bring God into the equation of a ponzi, I just want to go over there and whack them a few times. And it seems more and more members are like this.

They all seem to have a script that they are reading off of. There seems to be no unique answers among any of them. So, either the system is really good and the answers are all the same because its the same answer (2 + 2 always equals 4), or they are brainwashed with the answers because they so desperatly want them to be correct...

yes its true. the religic fanatics in ymmss are at least scary. using phrases like: working trough god and Kim and the analogy with jesus and spreading the bread :shake: they cant seem to understand Kim is a human beeing living in the real world. however this is a small part of the membership. but Kim is religic himself so you could have guessed it would happen.... but they are scary and they should be wacked big time!

Maybe its a legit business and we are just knocking the guy and the system because we dont understnad it. All i know is that i ll never kick myself for never joining this system. I just dont know how any body would be willing to do business with a company that puts itself purposely oversees just to avoid legal rcourse.

I wonder how many billion dollar corporations are in the states that care less about lawsuits. I wonder how many times microsoft and tobacco companies have been sued.

we will just wait and see. i took the shot because if it would be the succes Kim wants i would knock myself indeed for not joining. maybe i lose my money maybe not. but you do have a point here :)

last stats(for who wants to know):

2/16/2005 12:29:27 PM.
Commissions Paid To Date: $72,709,885.28
Average Cycle Days: 138

2/18/2005 2:05:01 PM.
Commissions Paid To Date: $73,123,203.08
Average Cycle Days: 139

2/21/2005 11:47:28 AM.
Commissions Paid To Date: $73,442,879.38
Average Cycle Days: 140

2/23/2005 12:44:11 PM.
Commissions Paid To Date: $73,594,187.78
Average Cycle Days: 142

hhhmmm with the last two days only cycling about $150.000 ymmsss seems to be slowing down quite rapidly.... what will happen????? :rolleyes:

Isabelle

February 24th, 2005, 11:12 PM

Have any of you people ever joined a HYIP and made money....

Most of what I read here about YMMSS is written by people who have a negative outlook to life.... I can tell by the way you talk.

For the record

Kim Inman decided that he would find a way that would make it possible for everyone to make a profit from their investments.

No one who has joined YMMSS has lost any money

Kim is a Christian and many who join are Christians... but not all and I am a Christian too. Christians tend to have a positive outlook to life...more so than people who worship other gods.

So Kim has set up a unique program that pays everyone who has purchased EPC's. The EPC enables you to purchase adverts to a safelist. You also have to read this safelist.... There is no hassle in any of that.

Yes Kim takes his share of every purchase. You dont find the President of the USA working for zero $. Every business costs $$ to run and as Kim is a very astute business man he uses a percentage to re invest in other invest ments. I read that someone posted that these investments return $60,000 a week at present.

Kim has vision and has his head srewed on the right way. He knows that this program would be a Ponzi if it only relied on members money... But Kim is far too astute to rely on that .

Reading what little you people know.... Id say Kim is eons ahead of you lot at running a business.

regards

I :)

surfer

February 24th, 2005, 11:32 PM

written by people who have a negative outlook to life.... I can tell by the way you talk.

Hmmmm, you mean like coming onto a forum and insulting people straight out of the gates.

But you did bring up a good point. Both the President and Kim head up ponzi schemes.

Maybe your next post can be one of intelligence as opposed to insult. Or do you only talk the talk without walking the walk?

Gee, I just realized you managed to insult people of other religions too. Thanks for the quality example of humanity you provide. I'll pass along your thoughts to my Hindu and Muslim friends that I always thought had pretty positive outlooks on life.

Thanks for setting me straight. lol

Now, if you're done insulting people, perhaps you could provide any proof whatsoever that YMMSS isn't just a ponzi. Ooops, that's right, it's all secret income no one can know about feeding the commission pool. :head:

ycchen

February 25th, 2005, 01:00 AM

He knows that this program would be a Ponzi if it only relied on members money... But Kim is far too astute to rely on that.

Welcome to matrixwatch, Isabelle. I have to agree with you that Kim is running a faith-based "business". In fact, most ponzi relied heavily on faith than truth. :)

You have faith in Kim that he is NOT running a ponzi, but can you explain where the money comes from?

If you or Kim can show us some evidences of the logical cashflow structure of YMMSS or its annual financial report, then I am sure Kim will attract non-Christian to join his faith-based "business". :)

Dreamer

February 25th, 2005, 05:52 AM

Ok, I'm not caught up yet, but I thought I'd respond to some silliness.

1. I'm not a pecimist or an optimist, I'm a realist. If you want to talk about having a good or bad look on life, I have a very postive look on life. I think most regular members who are actively posting in the forums here probably have a very healthy and positive look on life. I think it should be obvious. If I had a negative look on life I wouldnt waste my time on a site like this Honestly, I doubt that I have "helped" anybody in my own way, but I'd like to think that maybe I had a post that might have helped somebody make a better decision. Maybe they just saw what kinda fruitcase I am and decided that if I think its evil is probaby pretty good.

Kim didn't devise a system to get everybody money. He formulated a plan to make a ponzi scheme work. The problem with ponzi schemes is that there is not enough new investors Well, all he did was think of a way to make an outside stream pay off the ponzi afterwards, basically passing the buck.

He did do a kind of a convincing job at at, but its going to fail. Just watch. I think his spreadsheet he was using must have been on a broken computer cuz the numbers dont add up, and soon it will be proven as the scam is slowly going down hill.

As for being a christian, i feel sickened. Is that what christians do is use their faith to promote a scam? Thats disguesting. I think there was a reference in those succes notes about Jesus feeding a group of people with a loaf of bread. Kims version of the story is to go to all the bread shops, promise them alot of money in the future today for all their bread today. Bread...ironic.

I mean, im not that versed in the bible, and dont want a biblical argument. Thou shalt not steal. The meak will inherit the earth. Thou shalt not covet. Thou shalt not have no other gods before me (treating money like a god). Come on, if you really want to help somebody you help them, you dont charge them to help them and say that they are buying something useless just to cover their own arses.

Ok, now I'll read the posts.

Dreamer

February 25th, 2005, 06:07 AM

Oh, a mod himself said that he estimates that 90% of the moneys paid out comes from new members. I think thats a very optimistic outlook, because kim claims that other sources of income are coming in. If thats the case, its easy to shut up critics by posting a page of where the money is coming in every week. Without that its entirely speculation. But, what percentage do you think it takes for it not to be a ponzi?

Here is a simple test to prove if something can be legit. Use the math against them. A treasury bond will double in 20 years. Will they honor it in 500 years if you pass it down forever? Probably. YMMSS will not be able to afford to pay me my money when im 65 years old using their math. And, when it becomes legit and it becomes an advertising monster, we'll all run over there to make money with you. But, I will wait until I see his financial papers showing that businesses paid him 10b+ per year to advertise to its members.

homeworker

February 25th, 2005, 07:13 PM

Christians tend to have a positive outlook to life...more so than people who worship other gods.

i will reply to the rest of your post later but this is about the most idiotic and ill ritten statement i have ever heard and i just have to respond to it now.

this sentence made my blood go far behond boiling point. who do you think you are to insult other religions with this idiotic statement? christians a more positive outlook then those who worship other gods? oh girl you have alot of homework to do..... ALLOT!

do you think christians are superiour to the "other races"? hmmmm thats the same thinking that started worldwar 2. enough said i think.

homeworker

February 26th, 2005, 08:38 AM

Isabella you state that nobody who joined ymmss losed money. how do you know this? let me do some numbers for you:

i joined ymmss a couple of months ago. at that time their where about 9500 members. now their are over 20.000 member and i am not even close to cycling once.

this tells me that over 10.000 people have not seen any prove what soever that they did not loose their money. over 10.000 people have not break even. from this 10.000 people their are some how invested 5 figures. if the members stop bying epc over 10.000 people loose their money! (or at least not seeing their own money back in this year). this is more extreme then the hyip's you are talking about.

i joined thinking i would cycle in 90 days. at that time i did not know what i know now. now i am hoping i will cycle this year.

about Kim: yes i also do think Kim is an honest man trying to change lifes. but this does not say anything. even if it is the most honest person on earth, bad business is bad business. ymmss members are using terms like faith and Kim being so great. but the business plan just does not make sence. people are forgetting that.

but if Kim is that honest then why are the real numbers kept secret? that does not sound honest to me...the comission payout is showing numbers that say nothing, just a number trying to impress.(if you let 10 cycle to 640 the comission payout says they paid out $1260! while in reality only $320 has been paid)

how much of the 74.000.000 is paid out? only Kim knows.
what are the outside revenues? only Kim knows.
who much profit did Kim make? only Kim knows (however i can tell you for sure he is a millionaire by now)
why arent we allowed to see the real numbers? (i think i know, Kim knows it for sure, but its not: trade secret ;) )
do you know for sure Kim puts $60.000 a week in the comission payable account? why arent we allowed to verify this?
kim even claimed he would bring in $19.000.000 a week in 18 months from now. does that sounds like beeing real to you isabella?

in the meanwhile Kim is making big big bucks without having to take ANY risk. the members are taking all the risk and if Kim his outside revenues fails.... what the hack, he is still millionaire. Kim makes his profit EVERY day and we dont have any clue what is happening with this. is that honest isabella?

yes i do have a positive look at life and i want to believe Kim and what he says. but he is not willing to show any real numbers are what is happening/ well maybe you should go and find some commen sence and you will notice that ymmss cant last (even with you positive religic aditute :crazy: ).

we are not talking about religion or faith, we are talking about an extreme large ponzi with real money and real people. or do you think God hands over the money to Kim personaly?

Psiphere

February 28th, 2005, 03:19 AM

Ignoring the comments from Isabelle and moving on:

To those who are researching YMMSS trying to determine it's stability and such, perhaps some of the following resources will assist in your due dilligence.

I am a member so I can pass on information to you from time to time as to what's going on inside. I don't have much invested, I'm just in to get the inside info and am waiting to see if the cycle times will come back down before I would decide to invest more money into them.

Like a number of you I am rather skeptical of whether or not they will make it to the end of 2005. Anyway, following are the minutes from last Thursday's (24th) weekly conference.

Also, as referenced to in the below minutes, here is a link to a bunch of 'YMMSS tools', such as recordings of some of the audio conferences and other information: http://ymmss.rjj-net.dk

Next telephone call: 03/03/05 9:30 pm EST (-5:00 GMT)

Author’s note: Kim was ill, so Barry Eschenberg and Jim Reynolds hosted the call.

Updates and comments:
Barry and Jim welcomed everyone to the call, including their guest speaker Mark Boike, who is the financial advisor for YMMSS. Mark is responsible for generating the outside sources of income. He is well-versed in investments and is very business savvy.

Mark was asked by Kim to come onto the call and give an update on where we are today and where we are going as it relates to outside income sources. Kim isn’t feeling well and was unable to attend the call. While attending the Belize cruise, Kim and his wife Sue became ill with a flu-like virus. He is just trying to get some rest now, especially to his vocal cords.

The 7-day Belize cruise was fabulous. About 130+ YMMSS members were in attendance. The highlight of the cruise was to see the YMMSS resort at St. George’s Caye. There is a link to the St. George website on the www.ymmss.com website or you can also go to www.gooddiving.com . Not only was the lodge beautiful, but the staff were incredible. There was a lot of scuba diving and snorkeling going on. Mark and his wife went on the wave runners. The water was beautiful. Mark stated that he’s never had more fun feeding the commission’s payable pool than he did that day! He highly recommends people to take a trip there. You can fly into Belize and then take a water taxi over to the lodge. You can also go to www.ymmss.com/vacation.php and see a link to Mann Travel (aka SilverSleuth International), who is the official travel sponsor for YMMSS events. 50% of the profits generated from Mann Travel and YMMSS events are fed directly into the commission’s payable account. With all the questions about the cycle time, Mark says this is a great way to feed the commission’s payable account. The next big cruise is the Alaskan cruise scheduled in August 2005.

There are other events scheduled prior to that as well: Myrtle Beach, South Carolina on April 15, 2005; San Antonio, Texas on May 13-15, 2005; Independence, Missouri on July 1, 2005. You can see a list of events at http://ymmss.rjj-net.dk/Meetings/Meetings.asp and hopefully members can attend some of these great events.

Holly and others have been working hard and focusing on getting the cluster of servers up and running. There not quite there yet; still have a few days of testing to do on it. This cluster of servers will help tremendously in handling the volume of traffic and growth in YMMSS. It will also enable the website to stay up and operational 24/7 and allow processing to be done 5 days per week rather than the 3 days per week that exists today.

During the cruise, there was an auction to raise money for the Benevolence Fund, which helps those YMMSS members who are in need of some financial assistance. David Raines was the auctioneer and did a phenomenal job. They were able to raise $8,100 dollars. Some people who had won the bid on a particular object being auctioned would give the product back and let it be auctioned again to raise even more money. There were some who wanted to donate to the Benevolence Fund directly and anyone can do that by sending their funds to the IntGold account number 97044.

Another event that is happening after the cluster of servers comes up is the new payment system, which will be available to all members. Most of the monetary exchanges will now be ‘in-house’. As our IntGold account holders know, we were all surprised by the IntGold account verification (which was imposed on IntGold by the US government). That had a huge impact on our business (increased cycle days) so implementing this new payment system in-house will allow us more control over our own accounts. When the payment system comes up, everyone will receive a welcome letter with all the information you will need on how to access your account. Mark stated that within the next couple of weeks they will be getting a lot more information on it.

Recently there was an issue with the credit card processing. With the IntGold issue going on, the downstream effect was that people were trying to purchase with credit cards rather than using their IntGold accounts. The option for doing that has been unavailable and again caused cycle times to increase. There will not be processing on Friday, February 25, but will resume on Monday, February 28.

Last year we paid out over $60 million in commissions; this year we have paid out over $14 million. We are averaging about $2 million per week. Once we get the new cluster of servers and the new payment system in place, we will be in a much better position and in more control of our own destiny. Mark thinks the testing of the servers to be completed within a week; then another week for the implementation to be complete. Once the servers are in place, the payment system will occur right after that. The staff has been working very hard on multiple projects and wants to ensure that these things are implemented as smoothly as possible. The servers are designed to handle YMMSS’ tremendous growth. While everyone is anxious to get those operational, please try and be patient; we don’t want to just bring them up for the sake of doing so and then have them crash all the time because something was done correctly.

We are confident that YMMSS will be here for the long term; we are doing many things to ensure the long term stability of this company. Currently, there are 3 legs which provide funds to YMMSS: member purchases, other investment income sources, and retail sales (which are a small piece right now, but will increase dramatically with the implementation of the retail site). We currently have about 20,000 members (and growing at a rate of about 80 members per day) that are reading ads each week for at least 30 minutes. We certainly want those numbers to increase because our next phase is to go after the retail advertising market. The strong membership base that we have and want to keep building is a tremendous asset to enticing the kind of advertisers we want to bring to our business. Our marketing strategy is to show them that our phenomenal membership (Kim estimates that our membership will be over 100,000 in about 2 years) is dedicated each week to reading the ads and have an incentive to do so. Advertisers will be excited about the prospect of advertising to 100,000 or more people who WILL read the ads, have proven that they WILL purchase over the internet, and want to support the retailers who advertise with us by looking at the retail ads first for the products/services the member is looking to buy. If we stayed at status quo right now, we are on track for paying over $100 million in commissions. We are bringing on staff specifically to handle the retail sector. 85% of the funds from retail sales go directly into the commission’s payable account. The other 15% is a commission paid to whoever makes the sale. There are trillions of dollars being spent today on advertising; we are going after a piece of that market and thus will have a dramatic positive impact on YMMSS. The main reason that the cluster of servers is being implemented is to handle the kind of traffic that will be generated with the retail site in the future. If you just do the math for having 100,000 members reading ads 30 minutes per week, you can see why the servers are so important.

We are also pursuing other investment opportunities to generate additional income sources for YMMSS. Some of those have already brought in about $60,000 per week for the commission’s payable account. Kim currently takes half of his profits and uses it to create these additional income sources. Only the gains on those sources impact YMMSS; losses impact Kim only. We have some income streams that won’t begin paying off until mid-2006, but at that time will be generating $15-$20 million per week. When we pursue alternate income sources, we always look for things that will provide funds for the long term, not just for today. As mentioned earlier, the profits from the Belize resort also feeds the commission’s payable account.

Mark addressed the cycle times. In November 2004, we implemented the new website system that we use today. We had a lot of downtime during the conversion from the old site to the new site. Then after the site was in place, it was up and down over the next several days. Until the new server and payment systems are implemented, it is likely that the cycle times may go up to 150-160 days. Once those are available allowing us to process 5 days per week instead of 3 and we reach the commission dates around the November 18 time frame, the cycle times will come back down. As we get the retail sales coming in, the cycle times will come down even faster. If the membership as a whole continues their normal purchasing habits as they had intended before the increase in cycle times, that will also help the cycle times come down.

Q & A Session
Q1: Kim had mentioned a while back that we were going to have ‘new products’ available to us to purchase that would benefit the commission’s payable account. Is that something that is still being worked on?
A1: Sure. Daily, we look at other product lines we can bring in. One that Kim mentioned on the cruise is something called Y-bay, which would be an auctioning service similar to E-bay. We are a corporation and with all corporations, things need to be filtered through all the proper channels, like legal, etc. and those things take time.

Q2: I have purchased EPC’s over the last couple of days and I haven’t seen them show up yet nor have I gotten a confirmation. Is there something going on that causes them not to be there yet?
A2: If you purchased them on Wednesday afternoon, the next normal processing date would be Friday. However, this Friday there won’t be processing, so you should see them on Monday. If you don’t, then you can submit a help ticket.

Q3: Why aren’t they processing commissions on Friday? Will that cause the cycle time to go up 5 days?
A3: During the testing of the new clusters, they found a glitch that needed to be fixed immediately and therefore they aren’t going to be able to process on Friday. It might make the cycle time go up, but probably not 5 days. Not processing means that the website will be up all day Friday and over the weekend giving everyone more time to purchase. So when they process on Monday, all of the sales generated from Wednesday afternoon to Monday morning will be processed as well.

Scheduled online conferences: http://www.hotconference.com/software/conference.php?id=38342665
Mondays-10 PM EST – Open discussion, opportunity and training call
Tuesdays-10 PM EST – Opportunity call
Thursdays-4 PM EST – with Kim Inman
Thursdays-5 PM EST – Moderators meeting
Thursdays-9:30 PM EST – with Kim Inman

Scheduled Telephone conferences (PLEASE USE THE *6 TO MUTE OUT WHEN YOU AREN’T SPEAKING) [These calls can be also be heard via the online conference room]
Mondays-10 PM EST – Open discussion, opportunity and training call
Tuesdays-10 PM EST – Opportunity call
Thursdays-9:30 PM EST – Telephone with Kim
Telephone number: 404-920-6610 – pin 226195#
If attending the call via the phone and want to ask Kim a question, when the Q&A session begins you can press the *1 on your telephone key pad and once it is your turn, you can ask the question. If you can’t attend but want to ask a question, please send in your questions to onequestion@ymmss.org

Psiphere

February 28th, 2005, 03:43 AM

I understand that a number of you don't believe the reasons for the cycle increases are valid (I, agree), these conference notes show you that they are still feeding members these same reasons and telling them that it will decrease when the server is online longer, etc.

I will continue to patiently watch and see what really happens over the month of March when the server cluster does indeed come online and the new payment system implamented, if it will really effect anything. I curious to see what they will say if cycle times continue to increase even after this, i.e. if they pass 170, 180, 190 days...

numbersman

February 28th, 2005, 04:44 AM

Isabelle, you call me and others here pessamistic. People who know me well would say differently. More often, I'm told to get my head out of the clouds than the other way round. You say Christians are all optimistic. If you haven't noticed, there is a massive variety of Christians in this world and that includes many who are depressed and many who are suffering and large numbers of Christians find it hard to be optimistic.

Isabelle, I know you may see YMMSS as some christian dominated company but I think you should accept the fact that most christians wouldn't want to be part of it. The company is just too suspicious in the way it deals with issues and appears to lack integrity. You may be in a circle of christians who see it differently but I think you would find that the average christian would need a lot of convincing that this isn't a scam.

numbersman

February 28th, 2005, 05:10 AM

hhhmm interesting numbers and thinking. i am going to think about this one a little longer... can you clarify the numbers a bit more?

Since about $75 million should have been paid out in commissions and YMMSS (or Kim) takes 25% for their control, YMMSS should have control of around $25 million.

In one extreme there is the situation that nobody reinvests. This means that $100 million must have been invested, the people who spent the first $37.5 million got their money doubled and Kim got $25 million.

The other extreme is the situation where everyone keeps reinvesting their money. $25 million is invested, $75 million (theoretical money) is reinvested. Nobody who invested their money has got anything since they reinvested their money and the initial $25 million is in Kims control.

My impression that it looks as though most (greater than two thirds) people are reinvesting. If around two thirds of the people are reinvesting then : $50 million is invested, $50 million (theoretical money) is reinvested. $25 million has been payed out to the investors who aren't reinvesting and $25 million is in Kims control.

The point that I was trying to get was that of the money that has actually been payed out, it looks to me that it is less than the amount Kim has been given contol of.

homeworker

February 28th, 2005, 06:55 AM

Since about $75 million should have been paid out in commissions and YMMSS (or Kim) takes 25% for their control, YMMSS should have control of around $25 million.

In one extreme there is the situation that nobody reinvests. This means that $100 million must have been invested, the people who spent the first $37.5 million got their money doubled and Kim got $25 million.

The other extreme is the situation where everyone keeps reinvesting their money. $25 million is invested, $75 million (theoretical money) is reinvested. Nobody who invested their money has got anything since they reinvested their money and the initial $25 million is in Kims control.

My impression that it looks as though most (greater than two thirds) people are reinvesting. If around two thirds of the people are reinvesting then : $50 million is invested, $50 million (theoretical money) is reinvested. $25 million has been payed out to the investors who aren't reinvesting and $25 million is in Kims control.

The point that I was trying to get was that of the money that has actually been payed out, it looks to me that it is less than the amount Kim has been given contol of.

i do have the feeling you are not completely right here. i am figuring it out :rolleyes: if you are right then it is really briljant (not saying positive) set up.

homeworker

February 28th, 2005, 07:28 AM

surfer

February 28th, 2005, 09:24 AM

We are also pursuing other investment opportunities to generate additional income sources for YMMSS. Some of those have already brought in about $60,000 per week for the commission’s payable account. Kim currently takes half of his profits and uses it to create these additional income sources. Only the gains on those sources impact YMMSS; losses impact Kim only. We have some income streams that won’t begin paying off until mid-2006, but at that time will be generating $15-$20 million per week.

So much deception going on.

I've seen statements like this numerous times. Kim is so generous to take "his" money and assume all the risk on these "investments"

The future windfall from these "investments" is being used to sway people into believing in YMMSS and to help keep current member confidence as high as possible.

Now, if these "investment" profits don't materialize as expected in 18 months, they claim it's only Kim that loses. So, if 15 to 20 million per week isn't placed into the commission account in 18 months, that's not going to affect the members of YMMSS? What a crock of B.S.

They are using these investments as a recruiting tool and still attempting to give themselves an "out" when they can't come through in 18 months.

Q3: Why aren’t they processing commissions on Friday? Will that cause the cycle time to go up 5 days?

A3: During the testing of the new clusters, they found a glitch that needed to be fixed immediately and therefore they aren’t going to be able to process on Friday. It might make the cycle time go up, but probably not 5 days. Not processing means that the website will be up all day Friday and over the weekend giving everyone more time to purchase. So when they process on Monday, all of the sales generated from Wednesday afternoon to Monday morning will be processed as well.

This should have zero impact on the cycle times. Or actually, since the site never went down for processing, it should have a positive impact on cycle times.

Although it really doesn't make any sense to me why they couldn't conduct business as usual and still do processing from the "old" servers. Since they were "testing" the new servers, things hadn't been switched over yet. So why couldn't people be paid on Friday?

Kim has absolutely no financial risk involved in this anymore. Member money is funding everything he is supposedly doing. He is well into profit with the members money and it's more of a cash cow for him every day, no matter how high the cycle times go.

surfer

February 28th, 2005, 09:43 AM

the more i get to know the more i begin to doubt the stability of ymmss. when i THINK of all that is beeing offered i think: what was i thinking a couple of months ago when i joined?

i think ymmss has a brainwashing power wich is almost incredible. even still now with all the sencor in the member forum (please dont mention the word cyce time... :( ).
if you read all the statements you get sucked up and think: could it be? you WANT to believe.

Just like the hype that so many "business opportunities" use, the dream of financial freedom often clouds realistic thinking.

And the dream of financial freedom with almost no effort(30 minutes of reading per week) is even more alluring, especially when you add in the perception of such a "low risk" opportunity.

Of course, sustained success takes a tremendous amount of effort. Hell, we can even use Kim as a shining example of just how much effort is really required. Look at how much hard work he's having to do in order to keep the bucks rolling into his ponzi scheme.

maybe you guys should spend that 20 bucks to see the member forum and read the posts beeing made everyday. i could quote it here but i dont think thats verry nice to do. of course there are allot of people from the hyip arena in ymmss but the forum has over 6000 active members and thats quite allot. if cycle times go up and up i think the forum and their own members will become the worst enemy of ymmss.

There really isn't any enlightening info available in the members only area of the forums.

And if you look through the member list, you'll see that only about 40% of the registered members have even posted 1 time.

i invested quite a sum of money and if i cycle (if it happens) i now have a "bad feeling" about the money i make....hhmmm i think i will get out my own money and let the rest cycle until i am a biljonaire :D then i am not hurting anybody.

Yeah, let it cycle until you're a billionaire. At that point, we'll have to admit it's legit. lol

i am working to get some answers to my questions from Kim or the mods.

Good luck. If you get anything other than the same old tired spiel, let us know. ;)

Psiphere

February 28th, 2005, 11:28 AM

Homeworker, you can take out ALL of your money when it cycles if you enable the 'claim via safelist' option. You will have to watch your positions as the approach cycle end because you won't get an e-mail when it happens and they are only available to 'claim via safelist' for a 48 hour period or something and then it just auto-reinvests.

Just letting you know in case you're not aware that you can withdraw the whole position, like if 320 doubles to 640, you can just withdraw it and remove you position from future cycles rather than only receiving 320 and 320 re-invest.

Also a number of people don't know you can do this same thing with small positions too, like $10 ones, you can claim via safelist and remove the entire $20 when it cycles. If you don't want to be part of YMMSS anymore you might as well take ALL your cash out rather than leaving half of it in there to cycle until you're a bjillionaire. :)

Other commenters, as for the comments and things they are saying to keep peoples confidence, yes you're correct they are quite deceptive in the way they word things.

homeworker

February 28th, 2005, 01:51 PM

ycchen

March 1st, 2005, 03:45 AM

i invested quite a sum of money and if i cycle (if it happens) i now have a "bad feeling" about the money i make....hhmmm i think i will get out my own money and let the rest cycle until i am a biljonaire :D then i am not hurting anybody.

I am not sure if you should or should not feel bad about the money you make (if ever) on YMMSS. If you ever receive any profit, you should know that the extra money comes from those who join YMMSS after you.

Ponzi/pyramid is designed to rob Paul to pay Mary. The same payment method will continue until Peter refused to join (the cycle time too long), and the scheme collapse.

ComplexKid

March 3rd, 2005, 01:51 PM

Kim is a Christian and many who join are Christians... but not all and I am a Christian too. Christians tend to have a positive outlook to life...more so than people who worship other gods.

That's one reason why the Jewish contingent never visits the forum anymore. Isabelle, that is one of the most revolting statements I have heard outside that forum, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh--by the way--after one of your mods started the big thread about how all YMMSS's problems are caused by Satanic attacks, and only Christians can save it by praying, and you all organised a prayer meeting--did that save it?

It does have to be the most novel excuse for a ponzi crashing I've ever heard, I'll give it that. Not only is it a ponzi, but it's a religious affinity scam--no doubt in my mind at all at this point.

Do you have any idea how insane this whole charade is becoming?

ycchen

March 3rd, 2005, 01:59 PM

ComplexKid, welcome to the matrixwatch and share your insight!

From business point of view, exclusion is a dead end. If YMMSS is turning into a Chritian ponzi, it will stagnant much sooner than if it is more secular and inclusive. :)

surfer

March 3rd, 2005, 04:01 PM

Moving away from the religious side of things.................... :)

It's just so amazing(and sad) that so many people are so desparate
to believe the impossible.

More and more people are having to "buy" their way and/or recruit
their way to a decent income because of the ever increasing cycle times.

IF they could stop the rising cycle times, you could still "buy"
your way to a 6 figure income in about 2 1/2 years of $10 weekly EPC
purchases.

But they can't stop cycle times from rising, and members will continually
have to play catch up to their income. If you cash some out, it continues
to get further and further between cycles, so you just can't keep pace.

However, even if they do launch a retail site, that will at best temporarily
slow down the demise.

Every member purchase eventually becomes a financial burden to the system

YMMSS' clever redesign of the ponzi has helped slow that inevitable fact,
which has elongated it's life span.

But now, there are simply too many people sucking too much money out of
the system to maintain. What other rational explanation can any YMMSS
member give when cycle times have now shot up close to 60 days while the
membership base has more than doubled in the same time frame?

Kim's excuses do not explain the average 4 to 5 days every week for the last
two months.

In December, cycle times were rising an average of 2 to 3 day per week. The
excuse was that people were Christmas shopping, so buying less EPCs.

In January/February, the cycle times rose 4 to 5 days every week. Different
excuses continue to be given and people are encouraged to buy more and
wait for the miraculous retail site to launch and fix everything.

Has anyone in YMMSS even bothered to figure out how much $$$$ in retail ad
sales would be required to even make a dent in cycle times? Essentially, they
would have to go from a non-existant company to a multi-million dollar outfit
overnight for any serious impact to happen in the short term.

In the past 7 days, cycle times increased by 6 days. So the inevitable trend
continues.

Over the past couple months, active members of the YMMSS forums have
been encouraged to spend more and more to help keep cycle times down. To
what end? Even with this spending frenzy, cycle times continue to rise at a
consistently increasing pace.

This is basic math at work. In order to make a profit from YMMSS, you of
course have to be pulling out more than you put in. Since virtually all money
is coming from other members, each matured position in the matrix creates
more of a drain on the system.

To survive long term, YMMSS would have to continue to have exponential
growth in both new member recruitment, retail ad sales, and whatever
investments Kim is supposedly making. This is, was, and always will be a
mathematical impossibility.

When the new servers fail to make an impact, look for more excuses to come.
When the retail ad site makes little to no impact, look for more excuses to
come.

It may take a while for it to wind down, but the inevitable downturn has
already begun.

It's always sad to see so many people's lives ruined by these types of scams.
But I guess that's just the way it will always be. You can't save people from
themselves.

Arzel

March 4th, 2005, 12:19 AM

It has been quite some time since I last posted regarding a scam, but as any history class will teach you. History has a way of repeating itself.

I am quite impressed with the amount of research done on YMMSS, and after spending the past few hours reading this thread and the corresponding links regarding YMMSS it is quite obvious, as several have mentioned, that this is indeed a ponzi scheme. It may have been dressed up to some degree to cloud this fact, but the facts remain and it will colapse at some determinable time in the future.

Without the proper data it is not possible to determine the colapse timeframe, but history dictates that the larger the scheme the faster the fall. It appears that YMMSS is very close to the critical mass required for the colapse. This is evident due to the current focus on "Outside Revenue".

If this scheme does reach the size of 100k you will see a colapse not seen since the granddaddy ponzi scheme in 1919, but based on the knowledge of the currently increasing time frame of cycling I do not see it reaching this point. The cycle time will not go down. To decrease the cycling time will require an exponential increase in members and whatever outside revenue there is will not be able to support an exponetially increasing member base.

The math is quite simple, and for those of you reading these posts that are involved in YMMSS I suggest you not invest anymore money regardless of what Kim says. The best con-men by far are those that are most charismatic, and he seems to be at the top of his game. I feel somewhat bad for the thousands of people that have and will lose money. :(

Again I commend the research done by those in this thread.

Dreamer

March 4th, 2005, 05:56 AM

I'll be the first to admit, it does seem like a ponzi that tried to be good. It tries to fix the faults that make ponzis fail:

1 - Relay on mostly new members. Well, YMMSS makes these outregous promises of a recurring income to intice reinvestment and keep money flowing in the system

2 - Unable to pay out everybody when it collapses. Well, if this retail works, that i will be able to pay off everybody.

On the surface it sounds great. It seems to address the problems of ponzi systems...only if it works, and its shown that its impossible to work over the long run.

But that wont stop the supporters. Kim seems to be straigh forward. That sounds like a good thing, though he talks in generalizations without any facts to support him. Its lasted a long time, so it must be legit. But, lets look at the numbers of signups:

November - December - 10,000 - 12,400 = 2,400 new members
Dec - Jan - 12,400 - 15,600 = 3,200 new
Jan - Feb - 15,600 - 19,000 = 3,400 new
Feb - Mar - 19,000 - 21,000 = 2,000 new

January was at at the higest point of new members averaging up to 112 new members a day, and it dropped very quickly to about 83 members now. 80+ signups a day is still pretty impressive, but just averaging 80 a day will take 1,000 days, or about 3 years, to get 100,000 members, where people predicted it would happen by 2005.

I hope more people are realizing this. The cycle tiems were promissed to not be longer than 90 days and now its approaching 150 days. It was said 100,000 members should happen by the end of 2005, which it hasnt. It was suggested that retailers wont be on board until 100k/100k, but one was bought in early. And so far its been a failure...but has it?

Well, kim took the busines to beliz to avoid lawsuits. Kim than theoratically bought a hotel or something in beliz. Than the first person he bought on board was a travel agent will can get you to beliz. Next on board will be a luggage supplier to sell you luggage, a limo service to take you to the airport, What else can he do to get himself more business?

Does he still seem honest? Well, to me, it just looks like he is getting all the members to pay for his own business venture.

Thinker

March 5th, 2005, 03:06 AM

I too have been following YMMSS with interest for some time and many of the points brought up in this thread seem valid, but there are also some logical inconsistencies in what is being said about the program. For instance, it is often stated that YMMSS can't sustain in the long run because too much money is being paid out and can't be recouped from new members. At the same time, some point out that the quotes of millions of dollars paid are badly inflated, as they include monies that are simply cycled back into the system. The fact that a great deal of the money is recycling rather than being paid would seem to go against the concern that too much is being paid out. If you say they can't sustain while paying out millions then point out that they are not in fact paying nearly that much out, haven't you disproved your own point?

A similar point is that a common criticism uses doubling math to show how the payouts grow exponentially, which would naturally destroy the system. However, one can either let one's investment double OR one can take some or all of it out. You can't do both. If people let their money 'double' without removing it, it's only doubling on paper, and not straining the system financially. If they take some or all of the money as payments, they are not letting it double. For the math that is used to denigrate YMMSS to be accurate, most of the members would need to leave their money alone for several years, during which time there would be no strain on the system (and they would be paid nothing). Since many members not only take some profits (eliminating the doubling effect) but also continue to make fresh purchases (adding fresh money into the system) it is neither logical or honest to use continuous doubling math to describe the way YMMSS works. I'm not saying this makes YMMSS viable, just pointing out that some of the arguments against YMMSS are every bit as dishonest and misleading as the YMMSS claims are said to be.

A final point on the YMMSS business model. It seems to me that the basic concept of creating a highly motivated, guaranteed audience and selling access to that audience through advertising has significant merit. I think it's hard to argue that advertisers would not be willing to pay top dollar to advertise in a way that guarantees not only a steady, consistent audience, but also one that is motivated to view ads (they're being paid) and therefore do not see the ads in the inherently negative way that the average viewer does. Add in that they have shown that they are willing to make online purchases (many people don't, even if they regularly browse the internet) so such an audience would be uniquely targeted for online business, and that by earning extra cash from their commissions they have at least a modicum of expendable income. Such an audience, if you could provide one, would surely be highly sought after by advertisers who would gladly pay a premium to access them.

How would you go about creating such an audience? Getting tens of thousands of people to agree to read ads for money would require finding the people, then paying them for as long as it took to get the ad revenue in place. But what would they read if there were no ads? Could anyone pay the huge up front investment of paying so much money to so many people over the time it would take to recruit them, then continuing to pay them while advertisers were sought and sold on the concept? The path to profitability would be so long and so expensive that I doubt you could get even a single capital investment lined up. Advertisers, of course, wouldn't even talk to you until after you got the whole system up and running, so every bit of the initial startup cost and effort would need to be absorbed by speculators. It simply would never happen.

What if, however, you could find a way to grow such an audience, gradually, organically, and in a self-financing way? The method YMMSS employs has built not only an audience, but also the advertising (by members mostly, so far) and has been able to do so without massive upfront capital investment. I can't help but think that the owner may have devised a way to utilize the basic structure of a money doubler to keep this system going until it becomes large enough to actually HAVE the value to advertisers that it would need to be a viable business commodity.

If indeed the idea was to marry the unique situation of the internet (tens of thousands of people who would like to make money and also have a need for advertising) with a plan that would allow it to grow self-funded for a limited time, it seems to me it should be possible (not necessarily probable) to then transition over to a sustainable advertising business which could be profitable by selling the product it had built. Including the acquisition of outside investment concerns would also play well into this as it would help to provide extra financial stability during growth and also provide a broader financial base for the company in the long term. I can't think of a single major corporation that doesn't also make broad outside investments to solidify it's financial stability.

This, then, would show why analyses of the YMMSS business model as purely a doomed money doubler may be off the mark. If the plan actually involves a two-phase strategy employing a short term growth model followed by a long term product-driven sustainable model, why would it not be possible for it to succeed? I'm sure it will be easy for you to come up with scenarios in which it would fail - surely success is FAR from guaranteed for YMMSS, regardless of what its cheerleaders say, but I can't think of any argument that would show that success was impossible.

Now, in my personal opinion, the transition from a doubler-style growth phase to a sustainable retail advertising phase would require some structural changes. First of all, paying 200% on investment every cycle is excessive. It couldn't be sustained and it shouldn't need to be. Any investor would be thrilled to make a 110% - 120% return in this time, especially if it were consistent and continuous. Imagine the effect if, instead of 200% return per cycle, YMMSS went to 150% return. The benefits would still be immensely attractive, yet the cycle times would plummet due to the dramatic reduction in payouts. My thought is that the payout would need to be reduced, likely in increments, from 200% down eventually to around 120% to maintain viability.

Another change is in the area of protecting the unique value of the 'captive' audience by increasing the ad viewing requirements and closely monitoring compliance. The current requirement of 30 minutes per week is absurdly low, even for a 120% per cycle return. This would need to be increased (again, incrementally) to 3 - 4 hours per week or even more. This would still be a very easy requirement to fulfill, and would greatly increase the value of the advertising product. Also, at current YMMSS has no realistic means of guaranteeing compliance. All they do is keep tabs on when a member last logged in to the ad forums, and requires that no more than 7 days pass between logins. They can't actually track browsing time, so the claim of 30 minutes is meaningless. Even if time was tracked, nothing prevents members from logging on then going to take a shower or something else instead of actually reading ads. Some means of verifying that ads are actually viewed would be necessary. Then of course accurate demographics would be required. None are currently taken, though the member agreement gives YMMSS the right to require such information when they choose to do so.

All in all, I think it's an interesting experiment. I have my definite doubts about the eventual outcome, but I must say that I don't see this as necessarily equivalent to the traditional money doubler scheme; it actually has the potential to transform itself into a solid long term business. The idea of using a money doubler style model to finance initial growth may prove to be a stroke of pure business genius, but it has yet to be proven that the tranformation can be made successfully, without ripping anyone off, without breaking any laws and without falling flat on it's face.

OK, I've had my say. I'm interested in what you others have to say in response to these points and views. Please try to respond with forethought, avoiding hyperbole, exaggeration, misleading 'math' and invective. I'm up for an honest, enlightening discussion, but I don't respond to name-calling.

:)

Arzel

March 5th, 2005, 04:20 AM

Thinker,

You provide an interesting array of thought, most certainly you have spent a good deal of time putting forth your points of interest.

The Math: You make some interesting points regarding the aspect of taking profits and reinvesting into the scheme. However you must understand that the system, regardless of how long it takes for investors to claim their investment, is a deficeit system. Paper value or not, there must be some security in the system, or a sudden mass exodus would crash the system instantly. There are no normal finacial investments, short of the very risky type, that could provide the type of growth that YMMSS is advertising. In short it is either an extremely risky investment (in which YMMSS must be acting as some sort of broker to invest this money into some bond or stock type investment) or a ponzi type scheme in which current payments are made from future investments. You can argue this as much as you would like, but it is just not sustanable.

Outside Revenue: The primary claim of future stability is that of advertising willing to pay large amounts of money to a select group of people with a proven history of internet purchasing power. But what exactly is this purchasing basis. This is a group of people spending all, if not more, of their discretionary income on an investment which will "?" make them finacially independent in the future. Also this group is quite small. As a statistician with a very good knowledge of survey sampling I would first focus my money on a proven target audience for my product. With such a small population the odds that a large percentage of the YMMSS group would be interested in my product is quite low and the cost per potential buyer would be exteremely high. I just don't see it happening.

Non of this really matters though. The primary reason why this will not work is because they don't produce anything anyone would purchase. All of the money coming into the system is from people within the system, and they expect to make a substantial return on their investment. Anyone with any business sense would have no reason to adverstise into the system, since if it works they would be better off just joined the system themselves. The people within the system just don't understand this. They don't understand that there is no motivation for any advertisers to focus on this group, why would you? And if so what would their motivation be?

A solid business plan is quite simple. Develop a product or service that is better, different, or unique, and something that buyers would like. Develop this product or service and market it to a target audience. YMMSS is basically saying "we have a target audience that has purchased stuff on the internet, and if you pay us x amount of money we will send them an email which they have to read" The question remaining is why is YMMSS's list of 20,000 people better than just advertising on ebay or some other site where millions of people will see it. I can hit more than 20,000 people advertising in my local paper.

You even mention one of the biggest problems with the system. There is no way of guarenting that anyone even reads the advertisements. Also, while you may be realistic in your thought that the return may be (will have to be) reduced to a much lower level what do you think will be the view of the group as a whole if they are suddenly told that their return will now be 20% instead of 100% and you now have to read advertisement for an hour a day. I can tell you that they would start pulling out and the system would have a mass exodus putting a huge strain on the system.

But it is late so I will stop my comments for now, perhaps some more thought tomorrow.

surfer

March 5th, 2005, 09:42 AM

Thanks for chiming in Thinker. Great comments.

I think Arzel's comments are right on FWIW.

I understand your comments about the "math" issues and how they can mislead
the other way. If YMMSS were the typical doubler, it would have folded long
ago.

Arzel's term "deficit system" seems to the best label for it.

In this thread, and others, we are discussing YMMSS in it's current state. And that it is a ponzi system at the moment. It is being marketed to members in countries where ponzis are illegal.

If Kim had plans of a two phase system in place where the commision structure and required duties would change, I would hope that it would have been stated. However, he claims it will work for generations as it is.

As far as the business model goes, I do find the "legit" part of the business(if it ever comes to fruition) interesting. But in it's current form, there are many holes that need to be plugged.

For a company that claims to be in the advertising business, YMMSS has very little consumer info to show to prospective clients.

If they were seriously interested in marketing their member base, much more data should/would have been collected.

As it stands, all that they can provide to potential clients is country and YMMSS income.

And currently, only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the YMMSS member base has even made it to the break even point.

To gain maximum benefit from the YMMSS member base, every potential client must be a company that deals internationally. Otherwise, members outside their respective countries provide zero benefit.

The main thing for me is that YMMSS makes income guarantees that can not be sustained long term and markets itself by saying that no one will ever lose money. Right now, it is just a large ponzi scheme.

Psiphere

March 8th, 2005, 10:22 AM

A sad sad post by a YMMSS member in response to me questioning the lengthening cycle times:

We are doing our part to try to reduce cycle times, we have taken out a so called investment that lost us money last year and have been using it to buy in 50-320's. I know no matter what the cycle times are we won't lose money in this!! Proud member since 5-2004
YMM$$ ROCKS
Sad because, my goodness you would need to take out a pretty large loan to buy 50, $320 positions! What if they never cycle!? She's out $16,000!

I don't understand why people can't have more patience to 'test' the waters, at least if you want to put a ton of money in, limit it to something more reasonable, it will only take an extra 2 or 3 cycles to get the same place. If she started with $4000 instead it would only take an extra 2 cycles to get to $16,000.

I really hope YMMSS works out for these people but it really doesn't seem like it has a chance. :(

ycchen

March 8th, 2005, 10:35 AM

Well, some members (or habitual speculator/opportunist) might claim to invest, but in fact they did not. These are just common tactics to lure others to invest.

Of course, there might be a tiny number of HONEST member who actually RE-invest. If so, then it is really sad that they are trying to save an unjust and failing ponzi that is running on a SERIOUS deficit mode. :( Of course, they won't see their ROI if they are donating their money at this stage. :shake:

surfer

March 8th, 2005, 11:07 AM

Don't worry Psiphere, I promise I won't call any of your posts "stupid" ;)

Yes, it is sad that people choose to blindly follow and dump thousands
into these scams.

My next post should give a better idea of just how long it might really
take poor Sheryl to cycle her money if YMMSS even lasts that long.

Every single one of these programs is simply stealing from the losers. The
people who make money are criminals, whether they know it or not. I can
understand the newbies getting involved once and seeing what happens,
but those who repeatedly join these programs should be locked up. I
can't stand seeing the comparisons to the stock market and banks. The
stock market does not guarantee that you will profit like all of these ponzi's
do. These ponzis misrepresent themselves as legitimate from day one.

surfer

March 8th, 2005, 11:11 AM

Here is some more food for thought to those considering this
so-called opportunity.

As of yesterday's processing(3/7/05), cycle times are now
152 days. Doubling your money twice per year still seems
like a pretty good risk, right?

Unfortunately, this cycle time statistic is very misleading
since it only reflects how long it took positions that cycled
yesterday to do so.

This should in no way be considered an estimate on what your
cycle time will be. Those who cycled yesterday joined when
the estimated cycle time was 90 days, so this estimate was
not even remotely close.

For the past two months, cycle times have risen an average of
2 days for every 3 days that go by.

So, with the way things are currently going, what would your
cycle time really be?

If you joined yesterday, your original cycle date would be
estimated at around 8/6/05.

However, for every 30 days that go by, your cycle date is
currently being pushed back 20 days, so you are only getting
10 days closer to cycling for every 30 that pass.

With this current trend, your actual cycle time would be around
455 days. Your next cycle would be 3 times that length. Not
exactly on pace to cycle twice per year, is it? Truthfully, the
way things have been going over the last two months, it will
actually take you 5 years to cycle twice, over 16 years
to cycle 3 times.

I do believe that a successful launch to the supposed retail site
would help to slow the pace down temporarily, but you can see
the direction that all of these doublers head in their final days.

No matter what Kim does, every new member eventually creates
a financial strain on the system. There is absolutely no way around
it.

ycchen

March 8th, 2005, 09:55 PM

Good estimation, surfer! And I believe that is already considered VERY optimistic forcast.

In plain language, if you invest in YMMSS now, you can expect to get your first ROI (return of investment) in AT LEAST 455 days .

The question is: can YMMSS survive 455 days? If not, then why would anyone "donate" at this stage?

Look, even with steady money from loyal members, it won't stop the cycling time from increasing, becuase you need exponential growth in income to keep the cycling time stable at 152 days.

If YMMSS only depends on loyalists, you can be sure that the money feeding into this deficit business model (or ponzi) will decrease, then, the cycle time will grow much faster than current rate. In that case, the cycling time for the current investor will definitely go beyond 455 days.

That is the reason why I think 455 days is a pretty optimistic estimation. If you take into consideration of the dynamic of a giant ponzi at the end of its life, then, I would say that anyone why buy into YMMSS is doing charity. You are helping others to cycle but not yourself, unfortunately.

Ponzi don't work, especially when it is that large. :(

surfer

March 9th, 2005, 12:12 AM

Well ycchen, I'm trying to allow for some positive thought. ;)

I posted the same thoughts over at scam.com in this thread (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=823).

It's been hard to keep up with what's been said on the various threads
here and there. With a couple sizeable threads here and two large
threads at scam.com, I'm getting confused. :) The other thread over
there can be found at http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=883

Taking the calculation out a bit further, at it's current pace, a $10
EPC would take over 450 years to mature and pay out $320. The
good old days of this ponzi operating smoothly seem to be over.

Even a modestly successful launch with this rumored retail ad site
could possibly buy YMMSS a little more time and give members a
little boost in confidence to go on an EPC spending spree.

But the simple truth is that at it's current size and payout level, the
retail ad revenue, new member purchases, and any alleged
outide investment revenue would need to be $1-$2 million per
week more than it is right now just to stabilize the cycle times.

Members are absolutely delusional if they think that an advertising
company that nobody has ever heard of will generate anywhere
near the amount of revenue necessary in less than a couple years.

I'll just continue to monitor the progress, or lack thereof, with this
supposed business opportunity.

Of course, it's sad to see members getting bad advice and then
getting burned when they take it. Some members were foolishly
offering a money back guarantee if someone decided they wanted
out of the business.

A lady is now getting burned by the offer she made to someone
who purchased 4 $320 EPCs in January and now wants his money
back as she promised.

She's screwed in two ways.

#1. She can't afford to buy his positions back until she cycles, and
who knows how long that will take.

#2. Even if she could afford it, the "benefactor" capability which
would allow him to transfer his positions in the matrix to her is no
longer available due to security issues.

Ahh, the hard lessons of life. :(

Dreamer

March 9th, 2005, 02:13 AM

I'll save my comments until 160 days. I think 160 days is the time where the lies are continued and the cycle days magically drop, or the true coors are revealed and the high paying members withdraw full amount than.

But, surfer, are your numbers correctly? Is it the number of days yesterday would have taken to cycle, or is the cycle based on how many days its been since the last person cycled?

Now, i personally would drop my entire checks into a system that would double my money in 1.5 years. But kims been brainwashing them all this time saying that once retail kicks in, the doubler (wait its not a doubler) will cease and all these retailers will be running like a mass stampede to advertise to thise groups. But, in the time since he started getting his advertisers (January) all he found was one business that will help his hotel he stole.

surfer

March 9th, 2005, 08:38 AM

Is it the number of days yesterday would have taken to cycle, or is the cycle based on how many days its been since the last person cycled?

Positions that were purchased and/or last cycled on about October 6 were being processed.

LOL, 160 days was Kim's top end estimate. Doesn't look like he's going to be very close.

Well, if they could just maintain the current pace of increasing cycle times, you
would still cycle within 1.5 years if you joined in the next 60 days.

But in the last two weeks, the cycle time has risen 6 days during a 7 day span.
If that begins to be the pattern, you'd be looking at well over 500 days to
cycle the first time.

It all seems to be coming to a boiling point. Over the last 4 months, members
on their forums have been pretty patient, but that patience is really starting
to wear thin.

Stay tuned. :eek:

optimistclub

March 10th, 2005, 12:04 AM

I am an investment advisor with years of experience and plenty of credentials. I've read a ton about ymmss and can tell you without any hesitation that yes (duh), this is just another variation of a pyramid/ponzi scam. Call it what you want, but the promises are definitely too good to be true. I'm not going to try and dazzle anyone with fancy analysis or convoluted language, but just leave a simple warning. I happen to live close to where Kim Inman got his start and can tell you that I've gotten good information from MULTIPLE credible local sources that Mr. Inman has a history of questionable financial activity. If you want to do some real due diligence on this so-called "Christian" (I detest when people use the lable of Christian to defraud others - it offends me as a Christian), ask the locals around Sandborn, Indiana (it's a small town) what they know about Kim Inman's past, particularly when he sold insurance. If you hit the right people, I guarantee that what you find out will be eye-opening. After talking to some locals, I think it's safe to say that if Kim Inman is involved, it is very possible that he will make money and you will lose money. 'nuf said.

surfer

March 10th, 2005, 01:25 AM

Well, optimistclub, since I don't know Kim I can't say one
way or another.

If you happen to have any hard evidence of these claims,
it would be nice to see it. Just saying "questonable
financial activity" leaves things a bit wide open. Anything
more specific available with any proof.

If I've read properly, he was also in Herbalife, but I've not
been able to dig up any info on that. Probably before the
'net became so popular.

Running a ponzi carries a bad enough stigma. Personally,
I'd rather not see character assaults without something
to back it up.

No offense intended. Thanks for the info.

optimistclub

March 10th, 2005, 01:50 AM

The hard evidence/proof is in Sandborn. In the interest of not putting any particular local individuals on the spot, or getting myself further mired in this mess, I'm deferring going any further. What I CAN say, is that there are people in this town willing to tell a person what has transpired in the past (I spoke directly to two of them and was given the name of a third that I haven't followed up with). I left this intentionally wide open to encourage anyone interested in the truth to do some real due diligence, if it is geographically possible. I take no offense, but I can tell you with no hesitation that this is not character assasination, but rather, a desire to lead people to the truth. If a person has an opportunity to speak with some of the folks I've spoken to, it will become abundantly clear that there is a real possibility of a bad ending, given past experience. I realize that I have a geographical due diligence advantage, but the clues are in my posts...if you have the ability to investigate, the path I've left is pretty easy to follow (this is a town of roughly 450 people). I wish you all well in your search for the truth. I will follow the progress of ymmss with interest, as I firmly believe that it is only a matter of "when".

surfer

March 10th, 2005, 02:09 AM

Understood.

Well, looks like about 8 hours from me. Maybe when the spring thaw
finally comes, LOL. Of course, I might get flashbacks of the "Children
of the Corn" movies. :D

ycchen

March 10th, 2005, 03:29 AM

Welcome to matrixwatch, optimistclub, and kindly share you "geographical" insight to YMMSS. :) We always welcome insights to the "potential scam" that we are investigating.

Please continue to share more of your insights if you like, as a way to convince members and non-members about the nature of all these get-rich-fast schemes and the previous expriences of the owner(s).

surfer, we did have some discussion on herbalife in the past. There is a good online report on herbalife that you can find in the following post.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=862&highlight=HERBALife

Dreamer

March 10th, 2005, 05:31 AM

While I don't usually agree with lots of generalizations about stuff, I'm taking optimistclub's opinion that it best not be shared. Much the same reason I dont think matrixwatch wants personal stuff released, spreading falty information, even if its believed to be 100% accurate, and backed by people in the know, could turn ugly if its not true.

I'm glad you stopped by to share your knowledge and observations. And while I dont think anybody here will doubt your claims, it might be an idea to state your credentials (if you have any degrees, or real world applications) to give further credit to your claims, so the pro-ymmss group doesn't try to make the same claim i make against the expert of a friend of a friend who decided to buy 400 320epcs but is unwilling to post anything, even made up.

homeworker

March 10th, 2005, 02:42 PM

For those who have the time and will to read:

In the office forum of YMMSS their was recently a post where members where speaking verry negative about people such as me how are posting bad things about ymmss in other forums. (of course the thread got deleted before i could respond)

as i was planning to get some answers to some concerns i thought this would be the time. so i posted a thread to respond with my concerns and the concerns wich grew with me when reading the matrixwatchforum. (needless to say it got deleted without notice within 10 minutes)

To all YMMSS Members:
If there is no possibilty i can discuss doubts at the ymmss forum itself then dont complain if i discuss it elswhere. i am open for discussion and i am not beeing unreasanable or rude in any way in the ymmss forum. also i leave everyone open to respond.

this was the original post:

-----
Dear YMMSS Members,

I just saw a thread about other forums where there are beeing posts about worries from YMMSS Members. unfortunatly it has been locked but i would like to answer to it if i may as i feel i am personally involved and i would like to express my point of view.

Yes i am one of the YMMSS members that is posting my worries and doubts about YMMSS in other forums. i am not bashing YMMSS but i have legitemite concerns about the business model and i am discussing this. (and no i am not afraid of using the same forum name as here if you want to know).

I indeed dont feel free to express my concerns in this forum. altough i have legemite concerns and questions and i am verry reasonable if it comes to discussing it in this forum i think my post wil be subject to deleting right away. you call it negativity, i call it an open discussion.

i invested quite a sum of money into YMMSS but my thoughts have changed (wich is possible). but i am certainly not moved by greed as some people are trying to assume. in fact i have choosen that i will take my own out of pocket money out (if i will cycle) and make no profit from YMMSS. not a greedy attitude as i would say. If YMMSS is truly such a legit business then the rest of the money will cycle for the following 10 years to come and maybe i will change my mind again at that time.

I Kindly ask the Moderators here to not lock or delete this post right away. i would like to adress the concerns i have here and then all YMMSS members will have the change to respond to my concerns. i am NOT trying to bash anything or beeing negative. i am giving everybody the change to respond to my doubts right here in the YMMSS forum. from my point of view these are legit concerns.

People here where beeing verry negative about behaviour from people like me so i feel i have to get the change to respond to this. note that this will only be one time and i will never attempt to create disturbance or anything in the YMMSS forum in the future. i am a reasonable person wich respects everybodys oppinion and their business (altough i may not agree). this will be my only post about this subject in this Forum. I hope the Mods are willing to give everybody the time to respond to this thread.

my concerns are the following:

- We arent allowed to verify any of the outside income sources. altough this might be trade secret why cant we verify how much "real money" Kim is putting in the payable account? why are all the "real numbers" kept secret" for the members?

- I hear statements that $19.000.000 per week can be generated. this not only sounds verry unlikly to me but i read multiple times that Kim is so generous to use his own profit to generate these sources. he does not have to do this and i read multiple time this is beeing done AT KIM HIS RISK.
This is twisting the reality in my opinnion. So if 19.000.000 a week doesnt come into the payable account it will not affect the members of YMMSS? besides, where does Kim's money come from? The members are THE ONLY PEOPLE taking the risk and Kim the ONLY ONE WHO IS NOT. Why twist this?

- The commsions paid is verry misleading. Only one person knows what the real numbers are. The 75.000.000 may be an impressive number but it is far from the truth. The money wich is cycled and not paid out is not backed by real money.

Intersting example what happens when $10 cycles to $640:

$10 cycles to $20 --> $20 added to the commisions paid number
$20 cycles to $40 --> $40 added to the commisions paid number
$40 cycles to $80 --> $80 added to the commisions paid number
$80 cycles to $160 --> $160 added to the commisions paid number
$160 cycles to $320 --> $320 added to the commisions paid number
$320 cycles to $640 --> $640 added to the commisions paid number - $320 paid out

so at this point the comissions paid out says YMMSS paid out $1260 while in reality only $320 has been really paid out.

- I read nobody has ever lost money in YMMSS. Again twisting of reality. When i joined YMMSS there where about 10.000 members. Now there are over 20.000 and I am not even close to cycling once. The moment I invested the money it was “gone”. So this tells me that OVER 10.000 people have no prove what soever that they did not lose their money. This is over half of the ymmss member database. This is beeing said while the old members of YMMSS are beeing paid like crazy so to speak.

- The system works only with a certain amount of growt wich I find a little scary.. Altough allot of people state YMMSS is not a ponzi you have to agree the system is based on the ponzi principal and is at least for 90% working as a ponzi. My oppinion would be that Kim made a system to make a ponzi work (paying it afterwards) but I doubt it will.

- When I joined I was told cycle time would never go above 90 days. Kim would have known he could never force this garentee. At this point allot of people are strugling becascouse they where calculating their income with a 90 days cycle time.

- I do not like the way the rising cycle times are beeing handled. Kim was the the person who would have seen this coming but he never spoke of it. Now the cycle began to rise at the time the new website came in. wich I find at least to say a little to coincedint. This is giving Kim a legitemit reason for the rise of cycle time…. But not to 150 days. Besides i still hear all the time cycle times will come down when YMMSS can operate 24/7. why is this still beeing said when every logic thinking person know’s that the rising cycle times are not beeing caused by the site downtime. At least never in the way it does now. Again twisting of reality.
I simply cant see any possiblity that cycle time will drop again to 90 days. Reminding me of the dog wich runs after its saucage pulling the car……. And I have my doubts about the retail plan. At this point it is still fantasy and YMMSS is NOT selling advertising, and YMMSS is certainly not a million dollars advertising monster.

- I do not like the fact that religion is beeing used to defend YMMSS. To make things clear: I have NOTHING against religion. I understand allot of people find comfort, peace and support in their religion. Wich is only a good thing! But personally it disturbs me that religion is beeing used so often to defend YMMSS.

- the exponential income figure never ads up. Altough YMMSS members are saying you should not look at the “impossible numbers” but you have to admit the math is working against YMMSS in the long term. I am looking into the future of YMMSS: when I have reached my income goal I would always let a part of the money cycle to grow my income further. I think allot (at least 1000 memebrs I would say) of members would do this (greed is something humanly…). So people are building an income wich gets exponantialy bigger. What if only 100 people would do this over a time of say 20-30 years. Can YMMSS pay out billions?

These are some of the concerns I have regarding the YMMSS business. Not all of them but I thought this would be enough to get my point.

This is only MY OPPINION on the long term potential of YMMSS. Of course I can be wrong. I don’t state to know the truth. I think YMMSS has no long term potential and if I am proven to be wrong I will gladly admit that. To me there is just to much twisting going around here.
I made my decission. I take my own money out because I don’t want to make profit from something I believe people will lose money on. But believe me, I would love to be proven wrong on this one.

One more note: I understand some of you may see this post as a blattend attack towards Kim and the YMMSS business. Therefore I want to say I also DO believe Kim is a verry honest man and he is trying to change lifes. I also don’t underastemate the immense time and effort Kim is undertaking to be succesfull with YMMSS. I do not necceserly question Kims Motives with YMMSS, It is the business plan I question. I also think some of the concerns raised here have not all been talked about again and again.

Thanks for your time to read my concerns and take them seriously in advance. I am seriously interested in your opppinion.

Please feel free to respond to my concerns or defend YMMSS in any way,

Peter Knol
Thuiswerk83
--------

1st respons:
----------
I Have been in YMMSS since Sept 04 and I have cycled once, yet I am happy with the system and I do not belive cycle times will reduce because of belief in Kim (who I have never met) or because of faith in the system (who can believe in anything man made?). The reason my money is still in is because I can see the product working.

If you ******* capital in a new business, you research it first and put in enough to get a return while being aware that if it doesn't work you need to make sure it doesn't cripple you.

Also you give the business time to mature, thats the difference between get rich quick schemes and businesses. So far I have been in for 7 months in which I have seen a growth in my orginal investment, I can see future potential growth, and I am confident that the managers of the business I am part of have good ideas for the future.

I would give a business that you have decided to ***** time and money into at least a year before righting it off.
------------

2nd respons:

--------------------
These are legitimete criticisms
----------

i was quite stunned that i got those 2 responses. the person from respons 1 was verry reasonable i think. he sees the product work. legemite answer i think. however this does not hide the fact that YMMSS is a ponzi.

the second post was probably the one wich made the mods think they have to delete the post. i mean: one person having concerns.... okay, but members actualy agreeing with the concerns? oh no, not good, delete it right away....

maybe funny to mention that in the 10 minutes my post was there i got 2 pm's from members saying they agree with me and also are verry concerned. one actualy asked me where to find other forums that discuss ymmss in an OBJECTIVE manner.

but this is not all folks, oh no!

one day later i see that YMMSS heavy hitter Mr Esto did respond to my deleted thread with his own thread where he responded to all my concerns. frankly enough his post did not get deleted....... for about 12 hours.

why did this post did not get deleted?
Heavy hitter esto waved my concerns away with some verry serious twisting here and there (you know; the same twisting we all got used to at ymmss). everybody responded what a great man esto is and what a silly dumb person i was to raise such stupid points. of course this thread did not get deleted, it was 1-0 for ymmss and esto "proved" i was just someone who did not understand YMMSS and i should go doing my homework.

so i then responded to esto's comments........ after the 12 hours.
guess what happened: deleted within minutes.

for those doing their due dilligence: this should be enough of a warning sign that thinks do not add up at YMMSS. twisting, lying, deleting and praising their *** offto recruit more happy members. THINK before you join ;)

in the next post:

heavy hitter esto's respond to my thread, and my response after that. (copy past it just on time :p )

homeworker

March 10th, 2005, 03:31 PM

Esto's comments about my concerns:

i wrote some small comments about his answers in bold. these are not my original answers from the ymmss forum. i havent post these to give you a look why the post of esto was not beeing deleted. it actualy seems to make sence saying everything i write was unfounded...... however..... it was not.

if someone wants too i can also post my answers to esto here in the next post. but dreamer and surfer and the rest here can also do this. i think we will have about the same answers to esto "great" answers.

Peter:
We arent allowed to verify any of the outside income sources. altough this might be trade secret why cant we verify how much "real money" Kim is putting in the payable account? why are all the "real numbers" kept secret" for the members?

Esto:
::This contains true and false assumptions. For the most part outside income sources have not played a factor in the working of our system. The outside sources, by which I would mean various business arrangements plus retail advertising, are meant to grow gradually to supplement our commissions pool. The amount put in to the present commissions payable has indeed been mentioned and this is a good reason why people need to listen to our conference calls, readily available in recordings. I think it was something like $60,000 a week. In essence, it is a non-issue because the system worked well until the various well-explained delays of the present.
I am pretty sure it will do so gradually again as remedies are forthcoming.;;
------

Peter:
I hear statements that $19.000.000 per week can be generated. this not only sounds verry unlikly to me but i read multiple times that Kim is so generous to use his own profit to generate these sources. he does not have to do this and i read multiple time this is beeing done AT KIM HIS RISK.

This is twisting the reality in my opinnion. So if 19.000.000 a week doesnt come into the payable account it will not affect the members of YMMSS? besides, where does Kim's money come from? The members are THE ONLY PEOPLE taking the risk and Kim the ONLY ONE WHO IS NOT. Why twist this?

Esto:
:: This is a pretty twisted statement itself. It was indeed stated that this amount would be coming into the commission pool in a few years time. I doubt that many have considered that in a few years time, relatively speaking, that may be a modest part of the pool, just as current contributions may be.

If it sounds unlikely to you, the question is more -- Can you explain how this may happen? Any careful reading of how YMMSS works would show that one fourth of every dollar you and I put in transfers to Kim Inman. It is his money. It is his choice what he does with it. He has expressed his comitment to members and among his commitments is to use half of his income to create income opportunities -- at his risk -- to create supplementary income. (He has also devoted, at present, three percent of this income to us members as referral commissions, an act of unprecedented generosity.)

note that Esto finds it unbelievably generous Kim is paying OUR OWN MONEY back to us in the form of a 3% referral fee. right on Esto, twisting reality has never been so profitable

The only risk members take is that they may have to pinch themselves whan they get paid. Members take no risk except during their first cycle. The only legitimate question would be whether one would actually be paid double what one had spent on EPCs. Slowly but surely, that continues to happen. When I was in another opportunity I did not ask what the head of the company did with his profits. We have a head who is tied by his comitments to the membership. What he volunteers is his right and I welcome it. Taking that gift and turning it into an obligation of the giver what is presumptuoous, I feel.::
----------

Peter:
> The commsions paid is verry misleading. Only one person knows what the real numbers are. The 75.000.000 may be an impressive number but it is far from the truth. The money wich is cycled and not paid out is not backed by real money.

Esto:
:: Such confidence is remarkable. How do you know. I have pursued this question and concluded that the precise reason our system works is that every day all of the money received is applied both to pay-outs and pay-ins and that pay-ins (recycles) are the bulk of each day's payments.
The pay ins are real. If they were not we would be unable to pay commissions at all. Under duress during our current transition, we continue to pay. Every dime that buys me an epc as commission is paid, whether out or in. The money paid in goes into commissions payable as receipts and is available to do the same thing the next day.::

yep, twisting again. just putting it in other words making it look better. the payable account did never had $75.000.000 in real dollars, so it is not backed up by real dollars

----------

Peter:
>Intersting example what happens when $10 cycles to $640:

$10 cycles to $20 --> $20 added to the commisions paid number
$20 cycles to $40 --> $40 added to the commisions paid number
$40 cycles to $80 --> $80 added to the commisions paid number
$80 cycles to $160 --> $160 added to the commisions paid number
$160 cycles to $320 --> $320 added to the commisions paid number
$320 cycles to $640 --> $640 added to the commisions paid number - $320 paid out

so at this point the comissions paid out says YMMSS paid out $1260 while in reality only $320 has been really paid out.

Esto:
::This is precisely why buying smaller positions is helpful to the entire process. The money not paid out is paid in. It recycles. A $10 purchase os gold all around. ::
----

Peter:
>- I read nobody has ever lost money in YMMSS. Again twisting of reality. When i joined YMMSS there where about 10.000 members. Now there are over 20.000 and I am not even close to cycling once. The moment I ******* the money it was “gone”. So this tells me that OVER 10.000 people have no prove what soever that they did not lose their money. This is over half of the ymmss member database. This is beeing said while the old members of YMMSS are beeing paid like crazy so to speak.

Esto:
::This is an interesting observation. Presumably you read the YMMSS policy on refunds. You will get your funds if you want them, when they cycle. Not before. Will they cycle, yes they will. They may not cycle as fast as you like. Believe me if there was a way members whom you claim are making a mint while you suffer could purchase your epcs, they would in a heartbeat. You will simply have to be content with receiving double what you paid whenever that day happens to come. What is even more interesting to me is that the bulk of members who have not yet been paid are not assuming they are losing money. They realize that the business they have entered is honest, forthright and on the way to a new level of stabillity. When the Mormons traversed the US to get to Salt Lake they had some rocky and acrimonious times. I think this is a walk in the park in comparison. I am an older member and my major income lately has been three percent commissions because I have continued to work to build membership. I have no hesitation in telling all who listen they will indeed be paid twice what they spent on ads -- not once but as often as they continue to wish to be paid -- every cycle. ::
-----

Peter:
The system works only with a certain amount of growt wich I find a little scary.. Altough allot of people state YMMSS is not a ponzi you have to agree the system is based on the ponzi principal and is at least for 90% working as a ponzi. My oppinion would be that Kim made a system to make a ponzi work (paying it afterwards) but I doubt it will.

Esto:

:: YMMSS is emphatically not a Ponzi scheme and here are some obvious reasons excerpted from my Success Notes:

.....
"an awfull lot of crap about YMMSS not beeing a ponzi and twisting definitions of a ponzi wich i could not find the strenght to copy past anymore"
.....

i mean seriously do we really have to argue about the FACT that ymmss uses a ponzi sheme as basic?

----------
Peter:
>- When I joined I was told cycle time would never go above 90 days. Kim would have known he could never force this garentee. At this point allot of people are strugling because they where calculating their income with a 90 days cycle time.

Esto:
:: Nothing is more obvious than the fact that Kim did not know. Nobody knew. The series of events that created the delay make sense in terms of an unfolding sequence of delays, some of which could have been anticipated with the aid of hindsight, but none of which were predicted.
90 days remains the objective target but the present has probably forever necessitated a change of language -- We cycle up to four times a year.
To have known and not to have shielded members from the blow would have been rank stupidity. Not only did we not know. Only know are we learning that we can weather the storm. ::

Kim did not know he could not give an illigal and unfounded garentee? esto is answering a different question....
------

Peter:
>- I do not like the way the rising cycle times are beeing handled. Kim was the the person who would have seen this coming but he never spoke of it. Now the cycle began to rise at the time the new website came in. wich I find at least to say a little to coincedint. This is giving Kim a legitemit reason for the rise of cycle time…. But not to 150 days. Besides i still hear all the time cycle times will come down when YMMSS can operate 24/7. why is this still beeing said when every logic thinking person know’s that the rising cycle times are not beeing caused by the site downtime. At least never in the way it does now. Again twisting of reality.

Esto:
::The rise in days has been incremental and could not have been predicted without the benefit of hindsight. Each rise can be explained by either necessary downtime or the frustration of purchasing methods either by our credit card merchant acount folk, or intgold or whoever. I am a thinking person and every thought I possess tells me the cycles will probably rise for a month or two more, that anyone smart would be buying epcs, and that all the things we are working on will resolve these delays and bring cycles down during the latter part of this year.::

credit card issues and intgold? heck, before the new website was there we didnt even had a credit card option but know we can use it too explain the growing cycle time?
--------

Peter:
I simply cant see any possiblity that cycle time will drop again to 90 days. Reminding me of the dog wich runs after its saucage pulling the car……. And I have my doubts about the retail plan. At this point it is still fantasy and YMMSS is NOT selling advertising, and YMMSS is certainly not a million dollars advertising monster.

Esto:
:: I have given all this the benefit of the doubt, assuming these are legit questions. But really I think this moves into the area of simple negatives. I think that as soon as people are as convinced as I am that YMMSS could double expenses only ONCE a year, we would face such a flood of new members that cycle times would plummet. I think if people thought we would do it TWICE in a year, a similar stampede would take place.
YMMSS is already a $75 million or more advertising monster. We advertise to each other and have generated probably closer to $100 million. I have no idea how fast our retail ad business will grow but I do believe the concept is a winner. So apparently does the ad business. We shall see. YMMSS is selling retail ads already BTW. I even buy them.::
--------------

homeworker

March 10th, 2005, 03:53 PM

respons1:

Thanks for taking the time to answer Peter, Esto. Your words of wisdom are appreciated!

Susan
----------
respons2:

Hi:

As I read Peter's statement and reflected on
its inaccuracies, many things went through
my mind.

1.

If these are the things that he is posting in
other forums, than it is a misrepresentation
of YMMSS - something which is not
in keeping with the members agreement
to promote the business in a responsible
manner.

2.

This is a blatant example of someone who
refuses to educate himself in the business
so that he can explain it to others. How
then can he live up to the obligations of
promotion when he doesn't understand
the business himself?

3.

This thread for me underscores the
need for taking seriously our sponsor
responsibilities.
It begs the necessity of having good quality
members. Time and again when I read
remarks like this I am thrown back to
thoughts of how greed has consumed the
lives of so many that they truly cannot
see the forest for the trees. Jumping
from one business to another for a
fast buck without really applying themselves
to anything. This is the reason I like to
spend time with those I introduce to YMMSS.
I don't want to have them feel that this
is a get rich quick scheme without obligations.

much success,

linda

(Linda seems to know allot about me ;) )
----------
respons3:

Esto, superbly addressed!

Unfortunately some people will never really get it! But for the multitude that do, prosperity and good times abound.

Cheers,
Mike
-----
respons4:

Thank you Esto,

I am saddened that it is necessary for you to have to address such a message from a member. However, I thank you that you took the time to give it such a detailed response.

I don't get it!!! We have the best business here!!!! There is great transparency here. We have a head with great vision, who makes himself available for questions. If anyone is unhappy, he can raise a question, or even just take his money and leave, as long as he doubles it first!!!

I have to say that YMMSS is the best thing which has ever happened to me!! I woke up this morning, and meditated, and in my meditaions, I became aware of a feling of awe that I have been given this great opportunity - and I can share it with others!!!! I can make a difference in the world, and I have been given the tools!!!!!

What a way to start a day!!!
We will never be given another chance like this.
Let's make the most of it!!!!

Thank you, Esto, for your great contributions,

Warmest wishes,

Diane
--------------
respons5:

Thanks Susan for rescuing this and Linda and Mike for your comments. I quite frankly think we are going through a season of anxiety -- this is if I am not mistaken the Ides of March! or nearly so. My reason for taking some time to respond to a post like this is neither to put the author down nor to create a pollyanaish mood -- it is to speak to anyone who has real anxiety or even resentment. And to show that this board is not about suppressing questions that -- however misinformed -- are legitimate to raise.

New people who have not cycled yet were indeed misinformed, through no fault of YMMSS. There was enough emphasis on the 90 day barrier to make its breaching seem a sign of doom. A pit of the stomach sort of thing.

What I want to convey is an underlying confidence. Kim has laid out what is happening and what will happen over the coming months and the remainder of the year.

Those who share my underlying confidence will understand that whatever is purchased comes back again and again at a rate that dwarfs any other existing one available to virtually any person on the globe.

This is not free fall. It is the system working even in adverse circumstances.

The only other model that returns so magnificently is the large corporation -- and that is by raking off profits for the top.

Here anyone with any amount can buy EPCs and be assured of being paid.

It is that simple. My referrals understand this. The ones who are serious buy epcs every day nearly. This is as Linda suggests a wake up call to sponsors. Communicate with your people.

We are diferent than everything else out there. That is our signature and our hope.;

Best, S
-------------------
respons6:

Esto, I had hoped that noone had answered that guy but you did, and did so eloquently. How many times does Kim have to justify this Program? I must have read posts about a hundred times where Members in one fashion or another tried to answer people here questioning YM's continued existence. All I can say is that it is getting old.

What bothered me most about this guy's assertions was his inference that Kim is allowing a situation where people, especially those relying on YM income, are going to get hurt bad when YM folds. This is when he said he would not profit from YM as such. That to me was an unwarranted cheap shot towards Kim Inman. Give this guy his money back and get him out of here!

I had to say that.

Lenny
-----------
respons7

I think you mayt have gotten your wish. It seems to me in a confusion of notes yesterday that this person did say sayonara. Regardless, I think it is better to reply to distortions when you have a strong foundation to stand on. At least to set some example of willingness to take whatever is thrown at you and answer it evenly and truthfully. These are not at an end because this phase is not over. But I agree it does get tedious. Best, S
--------

and that was about the time i responded to esto's comments. to pitty for YMMSS and the members i did return. now not everybody could witness Esto's "glorious victory".
yes i did reply to esto with a "strong foundation". but sadly the mods did respond to this with one of their own "strong foundations": the ability to delete posts. yes some questions need to be unanswered...

i have now truly had it with YMMSS and his forum. things do not add up and people starting to realize this but those people are getting shut down right from the start. if they are right or not.

is a business wich needs this additute to survive legit in the first place?

Dreamer

March 10th, 2005, 04:18 PM

homeworker

March 10th, 2005, 04:23 PM

okay, last but not least: my respons to Esto (wich of course was the point at where the thread got deleted again....)

and again funny that even in the 1 minute my comment was there i got again 2 pm's from members who are interested in my points and felt sad the thread got deleted when i answered esto...... yep, the forum is not what it seems.

These where my answers back to esto:

although i do not agree with his statements i really apriciate that Esto takes the time to respond to my thread. i would like to respond to esto's comment shortly. and that will be my last comments about the concerns here as i understand this is not welcome.

but first i would like to answer to some of the other comments. I am beeing accused of beeing greedy, i am jumping from oppertunity to oppertunity (you seem to know allot about me Linda), not a quality member and i dont understand the business.

note: in the 10 minutes my post was at this forum i got 2 pm's of members saying they agree with me and are also verry concerned. just to let you know that i am not alone in my oppinion. people are concerned, not only me. so please take a little time before you accuse me and others of greed, poor quality etc.

When i joined ymmss a couple of months ago i learned and read all about ymmss and its business (including esto's succes notes). i was excited moved, toched and verry positive. i know truly everrything i can about ymmss and i am NOT a get rich quick sheme hunter as Linda tries to assume. nor motivated by greed either. by the way: is their anyone trying to say that doubling your money in 90 days (with or without reading ads) is not a get rich quick sheme?
i started to read other oppinions as well and made up my mind.

i understand i am no longer welcome and i do have all the patience to wait untill i cycle (if it happens) and take my profits. (it seems it is not apriciated i only take my own money out as it is a shot in the head to Kim).

P- We arent allowed to verify any of the outside income sources. altough this might be trade secret why cant we verify how much "real money" Kim is putting in the payable account? why are all the "real numbers" kept secret" for the members?

E- This contains true and false assumptions. For the most part outside income sources have not played a factor in the working of our system. The outside sources, by which I would mean various business arrangements plus retail advertising, are meant to grow gradually to supplement our commissions pool. The amount put in to the present commissions payable has indeed been mentioned and this is a good reason why people need to listen to our conference calls, readily available in recordings. I think it was something like $60,000 a week. In essence, it is a non-issue because the system worked well until the various well-explained delays of the present.
I am pretty sure it will do so gradually again as remedies are forthcoming.;;

P-----> okay i understand the outside revenues was never an issue. i also listen to conference calls so i knew it was something like $60.000 a week. my only question was: why arent we allowed to verify all this. maybe an idea?

I hear statements that $19.000.000 per week can be generated. this not only sounds verry unlikly to me but i read multiple times that Kim is so generous to use his own profit to generate these sources. he does not have to do this and i read multiple time this is beeing done AT KIM HIS RISK.

This is twisting the reality in my opinnion. So if 19.000.000 a week doesnt come into the payable account it will not affect the members of YMMSS? besides, where does Kim's money come from? The members are THE ONLY PEOPLE taking the risk and Kim the ONLY ONE WHO IS NOT. Why twist this?

E- This is a pretty twisted statement itself. It was indeed stated that this amount would be coming into the commission pool in a few years time. I doubt that many have considered that in a few years time, relatively speaking, that may be a modest part of the pool, just as current contributions may be.

P---> can you clarify why my statement is twisted? i understand that in a few years 19.000.000 is a modest part of the pool. but just as current? 60.000 a week is not a "modest part" of the pool. besides you are talking about 1 billion a year. i couldnt generate that even if i would have 1 billion already.

P---> i only say we are constantly beeing said Kim takes the risk on this ventures, but in reality we are taking the risk. i dont like this twisting (as you are doing right now). without this outside revenues ymmss can never be accomplished so we take the risk.

E- If it sounds unlikely to you, the question is more -- Can you explain how this may happen? Any careful reading of how YMMSS works would show that one fourth of every dollar you and I put in transfers to Kim Inman. It is his money. It is his choice what he does with it. He has expressed his comitment to members and among his commitments is to use half of his income to create income opportunities -- at his risk -- to create supplementary income. (He has also devoted, at present, three percent of this income to us members as referral commissions, an act of unprecedented generosity.)

P-->>I know how ymmss works and the distrubution of the money. so please dont try to make me look like i have not done my homework. You just explain the distribution of money in such a way that Kim looks like a verry generous person.
but at the same time all this money comes from us. Altough it might be “Kims profit”, we would have never given it to him if we did not get paid back. And Kims profit is getting verry substantial. The refferal commisions is our money wich is beeing paid back, you try to make it look otherwise…. Twisting….

The only risk members take is that they may have to pinch themselves whan they get paid. Members take no risk except during their first cycle. The only legitimate question would be whether one would actually be paid double what one had spent on EPCs. Slowly but surely, that continues to happen. When I was in another opportunity I did not ask what the head of the company did with his profits. We have a head who is tied by his comitments to the membership. What he volunteers is his right and I welcome it. Taking that gift and turning it into an obligation of the giver what is presumptuoous, I feel.::

P--> the only risk members take is they don’t cycle the first time (or did not get their money out earlier). At this point over 10.000 people are taking that risk. Some of wich put 5 figures in straight away. Can you GAERENTEE that I cycle esto?

> The commsions paid is verry misleading. Only one person knows what the real numbers are. The 75.000.000 may be an impressive number but it is far from the truth. The money wich is cycled and not paid out is not backed by real money.

E- Such confidence is remarkable. How do you know. I have pursued this question and concluded that the precise reason our system works is that every day all of the money received is applied both to pay-outs and pay-ins and that pay-ins (recycles) are the bulk of each day's payments.
The pay ins are real. If they were not we would be unable to pay commissions at all. Under duress during our current transition, we continue to pay. Every dime that buys me an epc as commission is paid, whether out or in. The money paid in goes into commissions payable as receipts and is available to do the same thing the next day.::

P--> again you are just putting it in other words. The pay out IS misleading. Of course the recycles are beeing paid with real money, however this money is directly beeing used to pay others after that. No mather how you explain it their has never been 75.000.000 REAL dollars in the payable account so it is not backed by real money.

>Intersting example what happens when $10 cycles to $640:

$10 cycles to $20 --> $20 added to the commisions paid number
$20 cycles to $40 --> $40 added to the commisions paid number
$40 cycles to $80 --> $80 added to the commisions paid number
$80 cycles to $160 --> $160 added to the commisions paid number
$160 cycles to $320 --> $320 added to the commisions paid number
$320 cycles to $640 --> $640 added to the commisions paid number - $320 paid out

so at this point the comissions paid out says YMMSS paid out $1260 while in reality only $320 has been really paid out.

E- This is precisely why buying smaller positions is helpful to the entire process. The money not paid out is paid in. It recycles. A $10 purchase os gold all around. ::

P--> no this is precisely why the comissions payout number is way larger then the real number.

>- I read nobody has ever lost money in YMMSS. Again twisting of reality. When i joined YMMSS there where about 10.000 members. Now there are over 20.000 and I am not even close to cycling once. The moment I ******* the money it was “gone”. So this tells me that OVER 10.000 people have no prove what soever that they did not lose their money. This is over half of the ymmss member database. This is beeing said while the old members of YMMSS are beeing paid like crazy so to speak.

::This is an interesting observation. Presumably you read the YMMSS policy on refunds. You will get your funds if you want them, when they cycle. Not before. Will they cycle, yes they will. They may not cycle as fast as you like. Believe me if there was a way members whom you claim are making a mint while you suffer could purchase your epcs, they would in a heartbeat. You will simply have to be content with receiving double what you paid whenever that day happens to come. What is even more interesting to me is that the bulk of members who have not yet been paid are not assuming they are losing money. They realize that the business they have entered is honest, forthright and on the way to a new level of stabillity. When the Mormons traversed the US to get to Salt Lake they had some rocky and acrimonious times. I think this is a walk in the park in comparison. I am an older member and my major income lately has been three percent commissions because I have continued to work to build membership. I have no hesitation in telling all who listen they will indeed be paid twice what they spent on ads -- not once but as often as they continue to wish to be paid -- every cycle. ::

P-->> nice story but again esto, Can you GARENTEE i will cycle?

P--->>and for your information their is quite a substantiel amount of members who is indeed beeing afraid they lost their money. but they are not allowed to adress concern publicly.
the older members started with say $900 and needed 2 years to have a good income. now someone starts with $900 and they need how long for that same income? 5 years, maybe 10? so what you have done in 2 years new members cant do. so now you see new members are putting in larger amounts to stay ahead. this keeps the system running but for how long?

E- YMMSS is emphatically not a Ponzi scheme and here are some obvious reasons excerpted from my Success Notes: (bla bla bla bla)

-->> yes esto i can also give you 10 good defenitions about what a ponzi is. maybe you are even right and is YMMSS technicly and lawfully seen not a real ponzi.
BUT the basics of YMMSS is a ponzi and you even say yourself that probably only 30% of the money comes from retail ads and ventures in the future. so if something is 70% working as a ponzi then it is not a ponzi? no matter who long you twist it, YMMSS works with the ponzi principal and if you are dening that you are either blind or you dont want to know. real products also dont hide the fact we are talking about a ponzi.

their have been ponzi's in the past wich where build on honesty but it did not work out. maybe YMMSS will but i dont think so.

>- When I joined I was told cycle time would never go above 90 days. Kim would have known he could never force this garentee. At this point allot of people are strugling becascouse they where calculating their income with a 90 days cycle time.

E- Nothing is more obvious than the fact that Kim did not know. Nobody knew. The series of events that created the delay make sense in terms of an unfolding sequence of delays, some of which could have been anticipated with the aid of hindsight, but none of which were predicted.
90 days remains the objective target but the present has probably forever necessitated a change of language -- We cycle up to four times a year.
To have known and not to have shielded members from the blow would have been rank stupidity. Not only did we not know. Only know are we learning that we can weather the storm. ::

P-->>ok, i tend to agree with you here saying Kim did not know. however that is not what i write here. i say: Kim could NEVER force a GARENTEE of a 90 days cycle time. he gave this garentee and he should never had done this in the first place. it is even against the law to make this claim. now the 90 days is a goal but it was not before... i still see people joining thinking they will cycle in 90 days.

>- I do not like the way the rising cycle times are beeing handled. Kim was the the person who would have seen this coming but he never spoke of it. Now the cycle began to rise at the time the new website came in. wich I find at least to say a little to coincedint. This is giving Kim a legitemit reason for the rise of cycle time…. But not to 150 days. Besides i still hear all the time cycle times will come down when YMMSS can operate 24/7. why is this still beeing said when every logic thinking person know’s that the rising cycle times are not beeing caused by the site downtime. At least never in the way it does now. Again twisting of reality.

::The rise in days has been incremental and could not have been predicted without the benefit of hindsight. Each rise can be explained by either necessary downtime or the frustration of purchasing methods either by our credit card merchant acount folk, or intgold or whoever. I am a thinking person and every thought I possess tells me the cycles will probably rise for a month or two more, that anyone smart would be buying epcs, and that all the things we are working on will resolve these delays and bring cycles down during the latter part of this year.::

P-->> credit card issues and intgold? heck, before the new website was their we didnt even had a credit card option but know we can use it too explain the growing cycle time? same with intgold, maybe a couple of days but not 60 days.

P-->> i dont believe cycle time will come down after 2 months. just wait and see.

>I simply cant see any possiblity that cycle time will drop again to 90 days. Reminding me of the dog wich runs after its saucage pulling the car……. And I have my doubts about the retail plan. At this point it is still fantasy and YMMSS is NOT selling advertising, and YMMSS is certainly not a million dollars advertising monster.

:: I have given all this the benefit of the doubt, assuming these are legit questions. But really I think this moves into the area of simple negatives. I think that as soon as people are as convinced as I am that YMMSS could double expenses only ONCE a year, we would face such a flood of new members that cycle times would plummet. I think if people thought we would do it TWICE in a year, a similar stampede would take place.
YMMSS is already a $75 million or more advertising monster. We advertise to each other and have generated probably closer to $100 million. I have no idea how fast our retail ad business will grow but I do believe the concept is a winner. So apparently does the ad business. We shall see. YMMSS is selling retail ads already BTW. I even buy them.::

P-->> i see a few business agreements and a FEW retail advertisers. this is nothing substantial given the fact YMMSS has to pay millions.

by the way if you say in the future 70% of the money still comes from members does that meas we have to continue to grow (exponantialy) in order to survive? thats never possible anyway.

this was my comments. thanks for your time every member. and thanks Esto for bringing the subject back up without deleting.

this was my last post.

everybody has his opinnion and everybody should. some or right some are wrong. time will tell.

I sincerly wish you all a great future with YMMSS.

Peter Knol
thuiswerk83

i hope this is not too much writing and responding... maybe i can make the posts with a better overview. so it becomes a little more easy to read. thanks everyone for taking the time here at matrixwatch. KEEP doubting and hold on to your money ;)

homeworker

March 10th, 2005, 04:50 PM

I'm halfway thru ur notes. Thanks for sharing them. now I have good reading material for after work tonight.

1. in estos notes I cut and pasted (I'd look for it again, btut i'm not that maniacally depressed) it said that all the money I receive comes from u and all the money you receive comes from me. I better quote that. Theres a ponzi for you.

2. Because you posted from your original thread, are you sure you wont get removed from the system because they think what you are saying is negative? I guess asking pointed question is considered being overly negative. Just if your going to embark on this, you might lose whatever you put into the system.

i am not quite sure but i dont think i will be banned from the system right away and lose any earnings. i did shake some things up at YMMSS and they are not truly happy with me as you can imagine. especialy not now i pasted the whole conversation here. but hey, own fault. i wouldnt have done it if they did not delete my post and then let esto's post hang around for almost a day untill i respond. that is not quite honest i would say.

frankly enough i thought about responding to one post of a member who said: give this guy his money back. but i cant anymore because.... well you know it..

i think i am close to getting banned from the forum but i dont think it is a verry smart thing to do to delete me totally, including my positions. lets just wait and see.

ycchen

March 10th, 2005, 09:31 PM

Wow, that is a lot of information going around and I managed to read through it! :) homeworker, thanks for sharing all this info.

I have only one question for Esto who claims that YMMSS is ALREADY a advertisement monster with 100 million income already?! How is he going to "prove" his claim? ;)

Esto:
:: I have given all this the benefit of the doubt, assuming these are legit questions. But really I think this moves into the area of simple negatives. I think that as soon as people are as convinced as I am that YMMSS could double expenses only ONCE a year, we would face such a flood of new members that cycle times would plummet. I think if people thought we would do it TWICE in a year, a similar stampede would take place.
YMMSS is already a $75 million or more advertising monster. We advertise to each other and have generated probably closer to $100 million.I have no idea how fast our retail ad business will grow but I do believe the concept is a winner. So apparently does the ad business. We shall see. YMMSS is selling retail ads already BTW. I even buy them.::

optimistclub

March 10th, 2005, 09:55 PM

Catching up with ymmss watch this evening. Again today, a new client asked me about ymmss. His hairdresser was really talking it up to him, so I directed him to the workathomenetwork.com piece on ymmss...a pretty good expose in my opinion. I've now heard from two locals that Kim has offered to guarantee their double by writing a post-dated check equal to their original investment. When I pointed out the obvious problems with such a "guarantee", I think I got their attention. I told one client that if Kim would escrow an amount equal to his investment in a bank of my choice and allow me to review the escrow agreement prior to writing a check and verify the funds, he could write the check (don't see this happening!) Interestingly enough, I also understand that Kim has asked people he promised the post-dated check, to not divulge this offer to anyone. Anyone see any problems here?!!!

I've enjoyed all of the commentary (yes, it does kind of look like the set from CotC around here!) and I'll make a pledge to unmask eventually, credentials included, although I'd prefer it to be after the fall of ymmss, for reasons you can probably imagine.

I'll check back from time to time and try to answer anything if I have solid first-hand knowledge, or at least unimpeachable sources...keep digging...the truth is out there...

Arzel

March 11th, 2005, 12:29 AM

Homeworker,

Very interting information, and quite a lot to read. You make some very good arguements, and I am not surprised that your threads were deleted. The most telling aspect of your writeup is the comment.

I am a thinking person and every thought I possess tells me the cycles will probably rise for a month or two more, that anyone smart would be buying epcs, and that all the things we are working on will resolve these delays and bring cycles down during the latter part of this year.::

This alone should be justification that YMMSS is indeed a ponzi scheme. His solution to start buying more epcs would indeed bring the cycle times down because of the nature of pyramid schemes. "Now is the time to really invest and help us bring the cycle times down". I believe that YMMSS is indeed reaching it's critical mass. They can no longer achieve the number of buys to cover the 90 day cycle time. The advertisement aspect is also not keeping up with the slack.

It is an absolute truth that there are more that feel as you do, and are indeed worried about the future. This number will grow and the frustration levels will grow as well. Since many people probably were banking on recieving their return in the 90 day period these people are now in panic mode. As this group grows the stability of the pyramid will further colapse, as they will now no longer be able to continue to reinvest their cycles the cycle time will continue to rise. Also there is obviously not enough new blood entering the pryamid, which only magnifies the situation.

Pretty soon, if not already, you will have some of the people at the top start getting angry with those at the bottom for "Ruining the business" This will cause a huge fraction of the pryamid causing the whole thing to colapse.

History repeats itself and you have a front row seat. EzExpo went down the same way.

ycchen

March 11th, 2005, 01:25 AM

This alone should be justification that YMMSS is indeed a ponzi scheme. His solution to start buying more epcs would indeed bring the cycle times down because of the nature of pyramid schemes.

I just like to elaborate a bit on scenerio in which KIM can actually bring down the cycle time through EPC purcharse. It is IMPOSSIBLE!

Simply by relying on the current members to reinvest is NOT enough to bring down the time.

Scenerio 1: If the current members continue to reinvest with a fix amount of money, the cycling time will continue to grow. (the current status)

Scenerio 2: The only way to keep the cycling time constant is through exponential purchase of EPCs. (see example at the bottom)

Scenerio 3: If you want to bring the cycling time down that means you need MORE than exponential increase in EPC income to offset the growth of the pyramd/ponzi cash-flow structure.

Here is an example:
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=53

Just replace "Sony Playstation 2" in the above example with "EPC", and you will understand what it takes to keep the cycling time constant!

Arzel

March 11th, 2005, 02:18 AM

Just to clarify my earlier response (I agree with ycchen). I should have specified that his (Kim's) solution would be temporary. A sudden mass infusion of "buys" would reduce cycle times for current members for a very short period of time before increasing at an even faster rate.

It would require (as ycchen noted) an exponential growth to keep cycle times constant. I believe that YMMSS has bumped that curve where it no longer seems possible to stay ahead of the exponetial growth.

I do in no way, and never have, believe that there is a mathmatical solution which would allow a stable system such as YMMSS.

Circuit

March 11th, 2005, 02:24 AM

:applause:
I do in no way, and never have, believe that there is a mathmatical solution which would allow a stable system such as YMMSS.

Amen!

surfer

March 11th, 2005, 02:26 AM

Thank you homeworker for posting that info.

Sorry for the difficult situation you're in and hopefully
you don't have too much invested(yes, we can use
that word here ;) ) if they decide to terminate your
membership.

Judging from the time you arrived as a guest on their
forums, it looks like you might actually cycle in the next
2-3 months. What is your current EPC cycle date set
at?

Did something else happen to change your thinking since
October/November when you joined? You came on board
criticizing the critics and are now becoming one. Ironic,
eh? ;)

Hopefully, you haven't given up on earning money online.
There are plenty of places online to learn real internet
marketing, most that have nothing to do with MLM and none
of them have to do with HYIPs/doublers, etc. It's not easy,
but it is rewarding.

I may dig in later to discuss some of esto's responses. The
vast majority of it is just double talk that gives no answers.
Reminds me of the types of answers I gave on essay
questions in high school. Always earned me "A"s though, LOL.

@ optimistclub

Thanks again for the info. I wish I was nearer that area
so I could check into some things there. I don't really
want to just cold call the whole town, LOL.

@ Arzel

Yep, it does look like "critical mass" is being reached. The
only additional variable is whatever trivial amount they can
pull from the supposed retail advertisers, if indeed there is
a retail ad site and it survives long enough to launch. Any
funds from that endeavor could at least temeporarily slow
the cyce, perhaps even bump it down a day or two if they
had anything substantial in sales.

More and more of these "quasi-ponzis" are popping up. I
have seen several other companies attempting ridiculous
returns on investments while supposedly utilizing revenue
from other businesses and separate outside investments.

A number of these ponzis can last pretty long simply
because the 'net give you a much larger pool of people
to reel in than the old fashioned offline ponzi schemes,
not to mention the different little twists thrown in that
help elongate the life of the scam, i.e. a $10 EPC must
cycle 6 times to payout at $320.

@ ycchen

I think you're right on about it being next to impossible
for Kim to bring cycle times down. It would take a massive
new member/old member purchase day to bring it down
only by a day or two

Until recently when the average payouts each day have
started to drop, the payout amount was pretty consistent
but the cycle times continued to rise. That is just such an
obvious indicator of not having enough funds coming in to
maintain payouts. It would take a million dollars just to
drop cycle times by several days To temporarily stabilize,
YMMSS would need to be making payouts of roughly
$400,000 to $500,000 on average each day. And the
necessary $$$ just keep going up and up and up.

numbersman

March 11th, 2005, 03:43 AM

Homeworker, I just read the following quote from what you wrote earlier. I just found it interesting. Does YMMSS offer no refunds?

Esto:
::This is an interesting observation. Presumably you read the YMMSS policy on refunds. You will get your funds if you want them, when they cycle. Not before. Will they cycle, yes they will. They may not cycle as fast as you like. Believe me if there was a way members whom you claim are making a mint while you suffer could purchase your epcs, they would in a heartbeat. You will simply have to be content with receiving double what you paid whenever that day happens to come.

Also about my earlier comments, I found out that Kim keeps 11% of the 25% of money that doesn't go into the commissions pool. 3% goes to advertising commissions, 11% goes to administration and 11% goes to Kim. If I wanted to get advertising commissions with YMMSS, I would be pretty annoyed with Kim considering that he gets close to 3 times as much as me for my work. Kim sure looks generous.

numbersman

March 11th, 2005, 04:08 AM

Dreamer

March 11th, 2005, 06:41 AM

YMMSS Refund Policy: You understand and agree that all sales are final and that we do not provide voluntary refunds. This is due to the fact that YMMSS sells advertising space, which cannot be defective

Why cannot it be defective? Where is the logic to that? If i pay for an add in the local newspaper for sundays edition, and the add doesnt run until monday, Im going to ask for my money back. Likewise, if I run an add on a site and the site goes down for a couple hours, I'm going to want my money back If the service wasnt what it was expected to be, its defective.

I guess thats the new stage ymmss is in...start saying that they purchased advertising, so they shouldnt expect their money to double. Wait, isnt that part of the expectations? If I buy the spots when the cycle was at 90 days, and after 90 days it doesnt cycle, and I spent a whole 30 minutes a week pretending to read garbage, wouldnt that mean that its defective because they didnt deliver what they promised?

surfer

March 11th, 2005, 11:30 AM

Personally, I don't have a problem with the refund policy, especially
if the EPCs have been used.

However, the real reason for the refund policy used to be
stated more honestly.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040218051634/www.ymmss.net/agreement.html

You understand and agree that all sales are final and there are no refunds available since your purchase is immediately used to pay commission to other members.

I don't have a problem if people want to waste $10 to $320
paying for an ad on a glorified FFA page. Only the income
guarantees make it a scam.

homeworker

March 11th, 2005, 06:32 PM

there is allot of twisting reality going on at YMMSS. the advertising side of YMMSS is just a legitemate business. and like surfer says, if people want to pay $320 for an ad: sure, no problem.
the problem lies in the fact that people would never spend this money for this ad if they wouldnt get paid back using an illegal ponzi sheme. YMMSS is a legit business BUT uses a not legit (and doomed to fail) ponzi sheme to make its revenue. YMMSS uses this legit business to justify a pay structure wich will never work.

for the information: i am working verry hard to try to get some conversation going on with YMMSS and its mods. (isnt it wonderfull what you can accomplish when you act like an interested person who whants to join YMMSS.... :rolleyes: )to give you an idea: the answers i am getting are going way behond the twisting we saw from Esto. this is not twisting but pure lying!

i am now thinking to write my own notes in a sort of respons to esto's "succes notes". maybe something like: YMMSS scam notes. i would really like to do this and if someone here wants to help me write this it would be apreciated. i am only doubting if i should use some forum discussions with the mods in my notes or not. it is a public forum so it should be possible. i dont want to act against the law in this one.

@numbersman

You where indeed right with the numbers. the 25% profit for YMMSS is indeed handled on recycled positions also! wich indeed means that Kim has an amount of money at least exceeding $15.000.000!

maybe it would be interesting to discuss the 3% referral fee. Wich is also handled on every recycle of your referrals positions. this was implented not to long ago with the new website. I think it was Kims plan from the start to implend this referral fee at some point. and probably at the point where Kim thought YMMSS could get trouble paying.......
i mean, isnt that briljantly thought? kim is having $15.000.000 in his pocket already, in such a way most members dont know he is having this (why are the real numbers kept secret??.....).

so at the point where YMMSS gets trouble Kim implends this referral fee. this fee is coming "out of Kims pocket". so the members now believe that Kim is the most generous person on earth using "his own money" to pay referral fees. (heavyhitter esto is not complaining with his 600(!) referrals. even with the increasing cycle time he is still making incredible amounts of money from YMMSS due to this reff fee)

this is smart: implenting a referral fee to look extremely generous and support more recruiting at the same time to help keep the system running. in the end the 3% referral fee (another exponantialy growing income) only ads to the financial trouble already growing. twisting, twisting, twisting.......

to be continued....

surfer

March 11th, 2005, 07:21 PM

You have a PM homeworker.

Yes, the referal bonus was an absolute necessity
to help buy time for YMMSS.

When YMMSS was launched, part of it's big draw
was the no recruiting necessary angle. Of course,
now that cycle times are skyrocketing and there is
not enough incoming money to keep pace with the
required payouts, recruiting is being pushed more
and more. And it's the only way new members are
going to see any income in less than a year, if that.
That is, of course, if YMMSS were to survive long
enough to pay out at this late stage.

Things will really start to crystalize for members if
and when the new servers go up and the new
retail site launches. The minimal impact that these
things make will start to open some eyes.

MatrixWatch

March 12th, 2005, 03:15 AM

Truthsmith

March 12th, 2005, 05:31 AM

Dreamer,
I see you have invented the word 'implend'.
Would you be good enough to enlighten the forum membership as to what this word means?
Regards,
Truthsmith.

ps: Isn't YMMSS just a 'bubble' scheme?

sisco50

March 12th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Implementing ???

Dreamer

March 12th, 2005, 11:45 AM

Can u give me some kinda quote where i used that term at so I can read my sentence and figure out where the typo is? I mean, if its really that difficult to figure out what I was trying to say, it probably should be reworded.

Now, when I cut and pasted that word and found it in the page, i ended up with 2 refrences that homeowrker posted. So, if I was the originater or this word, homeworker might be smarter than the average bear and started using it.

But, without a quote of when i said it, I think sisco is also smarter than the average bear and the word probably has something to do with implementing or something.

homeworker

March 12th, 2005, 01:44 PM

Dreamer,
I see you have invented the word 'implend'.
Would you be good enough to enlighten the forum membership as to what this word means?
Regards,
Truthsmith.

yes i thought i was the one using the word implend. while i am working on my english vocabulary it seems the word implend is wrong? but its not really an issue is it.... you might understand what i was saying.

ps: Isn't YMMSS just a 'bubble' scheme?

Yes it is :) altough a quite complex one.

homeworker

March 12th, 2005, 02:14 PM

I've read through this discussion thread, and judging from my experience with various internet scams over the past few years I'd say that YMMSS will crash sometime within the next few months. The owners may find some ways to stretch things out a little bit longer (2-6 months more), but by then it will be too late for the victims.

I wonder what you all think about starting a sub-forum devoted to the YMMSS website and running a similar campaign to the one we had with GotMatrix. This would be a way to encourage the victims of YMMSS to come here, get informed, and become empowered and organized to send complaints to government agencies, help freeze YMMSS's assets, and get a lawyer to examine the situation for a possible class-action lawsuit.

When it comes to dealing with internet scam--the earlier the better. And when it comes to dealing with scammers--the larger and more organized the crowd, the better. If MatrixWatch.org can be of any assistance to the YMMSS-victim community, then let us know. Many of us have been where you are at, and we are here to help you find justice.

If we could get a few thousand of the disgruntled YMMSS victims to come here and help spread the TRUTH about what YMMSS is really all about, then it would help to prevent many other people from getting scammed out of their money by this get-rich-quick scheme that parades itself as a "legal" enterprise.

It is about time that the U.S. Attorney Generals' offices heard about a new scam sweeping the nation. Perhaps even 60 minutes would be willing to do a story on this new phenomena.

Let's do it.

personally i dont think YMMSS will fold in the next 2-6 months. i give it another 1 or 2 years before they will really go under. YMMSS keeps cycling money so it doesnt appear to stall completely. the fact that Kim puts money in the payable account (saying this is truh) also keeps YMMSS from stalling completely. however with the cycle time increasing further, more and more members will become unhappy. and its a matter of time when the members are going to be upset and take action.

But i think Kim has the ability to stetch it all way further. he has got enough of excuses wich he can use. if the retail site and all kicks in Kim can say it takes more time before they will have the the Big advertising dollars etc. etc. when members realize that the cycle time will not come down after it reaches say 250-300 days it will be the time i think no one trusts YMMSS anymore and it starts to criple big time.

but i also think once they hit the date of the new website cycle time can indeed stabalise because they have relativly speaking not much money to cycle every day from then. i even think their is a possibility that Members get their trust back because Kim can stabalise the cycle time (however not at 90 days). but in the end its just a matter of time untill it collapses. but my guess would be it can take another year and maybe even two.

I agree to take some action. if YMMSS is a legal enterprise they have nothing to fear, but it not for nothing that they are settled in Belize. i cant believe using a straight line matrix in a business is legal. well i am gathering more and more info and conversations with the mods. they are defenitly using illigal claims and guarentees so i think that would be against the law in the first place.

if you want to take action, i am in.

Arzel

March 12th, 2005, 02:59 PM

I do not see YMMSS lasting for 2 additional years. If they can't reduce the cycle time, which they won't be able to do, then there will be a growing pool of people which cannont afford to continue to buy epc's. Since they don't cycle they won't be able to reinvest into the system.

Since reinvestment seems to be a huge factor in the YMMSS business model as soon as the cycle times start to drop the reinvestments start to drop and this only accelerates the increase in cycle times. It is already being shown that they cannot generate enough new members to sustain the exponential growth required.

It is always hard to predict these things, but summer seems to be slow time for these things. If things continue to deteriate at the current rate YMMSS is going to be in serious trouble in a few months.

optimistclub

March 12th, 2005, 04:04 PM

While I'm not much of a betting person, I don't believe that YMMSS will last another 12 months, much less two years. All one has to do is to Google search "ymmss scam" and see all of the reference hits (2,890 as I post this). I'd venture to guess that this number was muuuuuch smaller six months ago. While some of the hits are in defense of YMMSS, many are very negative. It will be interesting to see how fast the negative sentiment grows, but with that many hits, it's pretty easy to see that the ball is beginning to roll downhill faster and faster...

Sometimes the truth takes awhile to surface, but it's starting to bubble up in a big way on this "business". Keep searching for the truth and rest assured that it's not on the YMMSS website.

MatrixWatch

March 12th, 2005, 04:22 PM

All one has to do is to Google search "ymmss scam" and see all of the reference hits (2,890 as I post this). I'd venture to guess that this number was muuuuuch smaller six months ago.

Can some of the members here start linking people to this thread from the other forums which come up on a google search for "ymmss scam"? It would be good to keep everyone together at one place so that new and updated info can be easily accessible and quickly announced. We also have resources for newsletters, government intervention, and lawsuit resources.

Let's collectively work on linking all of the YMMSS victims here, and start by bringing them here from other forums. We need to work toward getting this thread in the top-5 google links for searches on YMMSS.

I'd also like to hear everyone's feedback on starting a new sub-forum here for the ymmss scam.

Arzel

March 12th, 2005, 09:01 PM

I have done a bit of research on YMMSS recently, It is quite amazing how large this scam is.

Using some information available regarding membership growth, payouts, and cycle lengths the trend for YMMSS becomes obvious.

YMMSS actually did a very stupid thing considering how smart Kim is supposed to be. During the early days the cycle time often fell below 90 days. If they had been smart they would have left it at 90 days even if they had the funds to pay early. But during the early days the membership numbers were suficently large enough to allow early cycles.

As with any business, to remain viable the expenses must be less than the revenues. The primary revenue for YMMSS is its membership, with some unknown outside revenue which doesn't appear to be all that large. The primary expense is the commission payout to the members. Until October of 2004 the commission payout exceeded the membership growth, but in November this membership growth could no longer keep pace with the payouts.

The resulting action was the increase in cycle days. It appears that the continued increasing of cycle days will allow the membership growth to catch up to the commission payout by the end of March. The only positive aspect (for YMMSS members) is that this should cause the cycle times to stabilize around the 160-170 day range. This of course will be short lived because growth membership will have to increase exponentially to keep the cycle stable, and I don't see that happening either.

By May at the latest (save some huge outside revenue stream) the cycle times will have to jump again to keep pace. If they had been smart they would have not allowed the system to cycle in less than 90 days early on. This would not alter the eventual end, but it would have delayed it for a little while.

At this time it is still difficult to predict the crash as a few variables are difficult to estimate.

The members: Many of the members seem to view Inman as having an almost godlike view, and will follow this for quite some time past the point when it becomes obvious that it will no longer work.

Cycle Time & Membership Growth: These are interelated. Exponential membership growth could stablelize the cycle times for an unknown period of time. Because of the religous fevor regarding this scam they could potentially recruit many thousands of members. Cycle times will have to increase, but increased membership could slow this increase. The question is how long will the members continue to believe?

Outside revenue: Although unlikely, substantial revenue could stabilize the system for a short period of time as well. The outside revenue will not be able to keep up with the exponetial payouts required for the long term though. It is just unrealistic to think they could obtain advertising for what will be millions of dollars a month for such a small group of people without any assurance that they actually even read the advertising.

With all that said, I do believe that YMMSS will be hard pressed to see 2006, but after hearing the way many of their members believe in the system it will probably last until the middle of summer before really falling apart.

MatrixWatch

March 12th, 2005, 09:47 PM

Looks like this little discussion has generated some interest elsewhere (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=17283&highlight=matrixwatch.org#post17283)

Dreamer

March 13th, 2005, 08:05 AM

scam.com actually has a few good threads on ymmss. I've tried to keep up on their threads, however, like this thread, it is just very long. But it is good to see some of the main posters there are also here, numbersman and surfer are the 2 that jump out at me.

Anybody really trying to follow along with ymmss needs to head over to the link watchdog provided and read thru that thread and I think in that thread has links to other good reads.

Dreamer

March 13th, 2005, 08:10 AM

http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=11829

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject: YMMSS HIT'S THE PAPER!!!! Reply with quote
I have been keeping up on ymmss for about a month now and came across an interesting article in the Washington Times Herald. This is a paper of Washington Indiana. The auther is a very well known writer who has a weekly column. this week he wrote and I quote....( Next week , I start the first of a two-part article on MLM and the internet. MLM is is short for multilevel marketing. I know of at least a dozen people involved in MLM in the Vincennes area. The Internet makes it possible. Some people are making big bucks, but others will never see a dime. Rags to riches-maybe. Computer and internet guru Randy Benjamin lives in Vincennes. He also is an artist and songwriter in Nashville, Tenn where he owns a recording studio.) I think this should be left open for people to read so please don't delete it.

The guest goes on to say that he knows the author who has been researching ymmss for sometime now. While I wont consider the persons word as gospel (wait that should be inappropriate with the religious fanatisim of the members) it would be interesting what an "outsider" thinks. Lets see if anything comes of this.

surfer

March 14th, 2005, 02:07 AM

Perhaps optimistclub is familiar with this person.

The newspaper's website is http://washtimesherald.com/ Don't
know if anything will be listed in the online site, but I'll be
checking.

surfer

March 14th, 2005, 02:15 AM

The quoted material below was posted earlier on the
YMMSS help desk area and is also now linked to as
"Read First" on the YMMSS front page.

I have a few issues that I'll post on later, but how
many legit programs need to state that they are
legit(#10). :head:

13 Mar 2005 - K-ADMIN
Last edited by K-ADMIN, 13 Mar 2005
SUMMARY OF YMMSS AND THE AFFILIATE PROGRAM
This is an overview of YMMSS so that Affiliates and potential Affiliates have a clear understanding of what we do, why we do it, what the program is, and why it pays so well. As you view the following pages, here are 12 points to remember.

1. Success Through Advertising LLC, doing business as YMMSS (Your Money Machine Success System), is in the Advertising business. We sell Advertising to Retail Customers and at wholesale prices to Affiliates. Affiliates pay a fee to become Affiliates.

2. We sell a product called an EPC (Electronic Posting Credit). An EPC is the right to post an Ad on our Safegroup Forums.

3. Our Safegroup Forums consist of Advertisements and Announcements paid for and posted by our Affiliates and our Retail Customers. Our customers are guaranteed that their Ads will be viewed or we will run the Ad again for free.

4. All sales of retail or wholesale EPCs are non-refundable.

5. Affiliates earn income from viewing the Advertisements on the Forums. In fact, they must view the Ads or their accounts will be de-activated. If this happens their only benefit will be from customer response to the Ad itself as no direct income will be paid by YMMSS.

6. The fact that an Advertiser knows that their advertisement will be viewed is what gives our product great value. We offer what no newspaper or other media can. A guaranteed viewing of a product or service advertisement that the prospective customer has an interest in. As new Affiliates join, our product becomes more valuable because the Advertiser can count on increased potential sales from the required viewing of the Advertisement.

7. Our Affiliates earn fees from the viewing of Advertisements. These fees originate from the sale of Advertisements and other sources of income of the company. Affiliates must view Ads to earn fees.

8. All companies large and small depend upon and pay fees or salaries, as the case may be, from sales. YMMSS is no different except it pays very handsomely for the consistent viewing of Advertisements. It is what gives our product value and makes it attractive to Advertisers.

9. Any non-individual Affiliate, such as a company, must delegate a qualified Internet purchasing representative to view the Ads. This adds significant value to our Advertisers who want to be sure that people with purchase-making ability are viewing the Ads.

10. YMMSS operates in absolute fairness. It cannot be described as any sort of illegal or unethical scheme. Here is why:

A. When an Affiliate joins and purchases an EPC, he enters the payment program on the bottom rung of a ladder we call a Single Line Matrix. Should the Affiliate wish to purchase additional Ads, he or she will receive additional positions on the ladder beneath his or her original position. As others purchase Ads (EPCs), he or she moves up the ladder. If the Affiliate abides by the Affiliate Agreement and views the Ads as required, the Affiliate gets paid when he or she reaches the top rung. The Affiliate’s position then moves back to the bottom of the ladder.

B. IMPORTANT! Whether the Affiliate collects his or her fee for viewing the Ads or decides to purchase more Ads (EPCs) is the Affiliate’s option.

C. Unlike other programs where “the first people in” gain the most, when an Affiliate joins is not important except to the extent that those Affiliates of longer standing may have more positions on the ladder and get paid more often. The more positions one has the more often one gets paid, provided one views the Ads as required.

D. Once you have cycled, or go from the bottom rung to the top rung, you will have received your initial Advertising cost back! This does not take into consideration sales generated by the Ad.

E. In the unlikely event the company should fail, YMMSS maintains a fund plus additional assets that guarantee a first time Affiliate’s viewing fees will be paid on a pro-rated basis for their initial purchase if it has not cycled. This guarantee applies to any level of purchase up to a single purchase of 32 EPCs, or $320. Additional purchases after the Affiliate’s first purchase are not guaranteed. An Affiliate will never be refunded for EPC purchases and fees are generated only for the time he or she has fulfilled his or her obligation to view the Ad Forums. If the first time Affiliate has not complied with the Agreement, he or she will not be paid.

11. Why is the company unlikely to fail? Unless the Internet ends (which would probably mean the world had ended) and companies and individuals are no longer able to Advertise or post websites, there is no end to the potential customers for Ads on the Forums. In industry terms, there is no saturation point. Also, as YMMSS gains Affiliates, the products become more attractive to Advertisers and hence become more valuable.

12. How can YMMSS pay its Affiliates such attractive fees? The answer is simple: the company has a valuable product to sell that costs comparatively little to produce. It can therefore pass the income, as fees, on to its Affiliates that view Ads and still make a good profit for itself. Affiliates can also earn commissions in YMMSS when they sell retail ads or sponsor other affiliates into YMMSS. Affiliates earn a 15% commission on any retail advertisements they sell. Affiliates also earn a 3% commission on the purchases of EPCs by any Affiliate they sponsor, excluding the new Affiliate’s first purchase. There is no down line as in a Pyramid. No Affiliate has the ability to bring in a group of people feeding the Affiliate commissions based upon recruitment of a group of lower Affiliates. There is no penalty for not promoting YMMSS although you will have agreed to do so in the Affiliate Agreement. That provision is simply a goodwill gesture.

IF YOU ARE STILL WITH US, HERE IS A DIAGRAM OF HOW IT WORKS:

YMMSS is a business that will never run out of customers in the foreseeable future unless the Internet folds or some international law preventing Advertising or the ownership of commercial websites should be enacted.
↓
The Affiliate, we will call "A", purchases an EPC. An EPC is a non-refundable product. YMMSS has sold the Ad space whether it is placed or not. Ultimately, it is a matter of “use it or lose it.” Keep reading and we will explain.
↓
Affiliate “A” then enters the Straight Line Matrix, or Ladder, at the bottom.
↓
Per the Affiliate Agreement, Affiliate "A" views Ads for a minimum of 30 minutes per week. If "A" fails to view the Ads, then fees are forfeited and "A" will be placed in a "deactivated" state for Affiliate Agreement non-compliance. "A" will still have received the value of an EPC, which is considerable. Further, EPCs have a shelf life. If an EPC purchased by the Affiliate is not used to post an Ad within twelve (12) months from the date of purchase it will expire for the purposes of advertising. The Affiliate will not lose his or her position on the ladder or the ability to view Ads (provided the account is “active”), but the EPC may not be used to post an Ad after that time and the Affiliate’s purchase will have been wasted. We therefore encourage prompt use of all EPCs.
↓
If Affiliate “A” is an active Affiliate, he or she will receive fee income upon reaching the top rung of the matrix. Cycle times and payouts will vary depending upon sales. We strive for 90-day cycles or less, but they can be longer. With YMMSS there is no issue of "if you will be paid"; it’s just a matter of time "when you will be paid”.
↓
Once the position is paid, it is removed from the matrix. If the payment for the position was set to “Claim Via Website” so that the Affiliate could receive all his or her money, then he or she will not receive another position at the bottom of the matrix. If they choose any other income option, then a new position with their ID is placed at the bottom of the ladder for the appropriate number of EPCs. See Income Options on the website for a full explanation.
↓
Positions are paid on a first-in first-out basis. Thus, an Affiliate that purchases EPCs after Affiliate “A” will get paid after Affiliate “A” has been paid.
↓
If an Affiliate fails to view Ads as required and is removed from the Active Matrix, he or she will still not have lost money because of the Ad value itself which has been purchased and can generate income for the Affiliate. The positions remain in the matrix but are deactivated. When these positions come to the top, they just fall to the bottom to start cycling again. If Affiliate “A” contacts us to reactivate the account and has a logical reason for the failure to views the ads, then “A’s” account will be reactivated and can earn fees as long as “A” views Ads a minimum 30 minutes per week. (See next item below). We realize that some Affiliates may become tired of viewing Ads or simply not have the time. Should the account become deactivated the Affiliate may still purchase retail Ads.
↓
An Affiliate may be reinstated into the Straight Line Matrix provided he or she can provide a reasonable explanation as to why they were not able to meet the terms of the Affiliate Agreement. “Reasonable” is in the sole discretion of YMMSS.
↓
Should the company become insolvent before a first time Affiliate has had their initial purchase cycle, he or she will be compensated on a pro-rated basis for that position provided he or she has adhered to the Affiliate Agreement and viewed the Ads on a weekly basis. He or she will be paid a percentage of the fee that would have been earned had the position run its cycle. The percentage will be proportional to the number of weeks since the purchase was made divided by the number of weeks in the cycle time at the point of insolvency.
↓
Affiliates with multiple positions on the ladder need only view Ads a minimum of 30 minutes a week to comply with the Affiliate Agreement. They do not have to view 30 minutes per position.
↓
Should the company fail, Affiliates with multiple positions are not entitled to a pro-rated share of Affiliate fees for their positions like the first time Affiliates whose initial purchase had not cycled. In the event of insolvency, however, they would have entitlement rights as would any other person owed a fee.

IF YMMSS HAD ANY DOUBT ABOUT THE SUCCESS OF THIS COMPANY IT WOULD NOT OFFER THIS KIND OF PROGRAM.