GINS vs. PIPS

[sisco50]

http://www.ginsystem.com/home.php

GINS is a recently launched copycat of the PIPS program. They started accepting money on the 27th of December 2004. Best I can tell, they are an exact copy of PIPS in principle or operationally, but have made some very minor changes. Things like units are $20 instead of $25 and you get 20 units instead of 17 with initial $450 purchase. Even the admin fees are the same. They will pay 2% per trading day based on earnings of 3% per trading day from PPP. I see no other source of income for GINS as yet. I am sure there will have to be other sources of income if they are to pay out as they claim they will.

Anyone else see this one yet?

[ycchen]

Right on! "Other sources of income" is the most important keyword that separate a non-ponzi scheme from a ponzi scheme. Even though I am skeptical about the 11 companies that registered under PIPS, I have to agree that PIPS at least try to make their scheme looks pretty genuine. I don't think PIPS model can be easily copied by any other copy-cat.

As we all know very well by now, it does not really matter if it is a real ponzi, quasi-ponzi or not. As long as you can join as early bird, you will cycle at least once. That's the beauty of ponzi/pyramid :rolleyes:

[sisco50]

ycchen

I agree that getting in early is good for account growth as the 2% interest is compounded each trading day. However, there is no other advantage as there is no cycling in PIPS or the copycat GINS programs. Read my lips! No cycling! :)

I believe that other sources of income are mandatory if the new copycat program is to survive any time at all. The 3% that the PPP will provide is not compounded but the interest rate of 2% promised is compounded. Another case of simple math to realize that it won't be able to sustain that for too long. :(

[ycchen]

ycchen

I agree that getting in early is good for account growth as the 2% interest is compounded each trading day. However, there is no other advantage as there is no cycling in PIPS or the copycat GINS programs. Read my lips! No cycling! :)

I believe that other sources of income are mandatory if the new copycat program is to survive any time at all. The 3% that the PPP will provide is not compounded but the interest rate of 2% promised is compounded. Another case of simple math to realize that it won't be able to sustain that for too long. :(

"it won't be able to sustain that for too long" is percisely the point. Excurse me from playing a broken record again, but "cannot sustain" is the dictionary definition of a ponzi/pyramid scheme. So, without other genuine incomes (Even if they have, it is irrational why they would share their profit with small investors. It makes absolutely no sense), GINS, and eventually PIPS, will collapse.

Also, I don't think GINS, a pure ponzi scam at this moment, could take off the groud like PIPS (the pioneer) did. We shall see.

Strange enough, both schemes registered in Malaysia. I won't be surprised if GINS is a "spin-off" of PIPS. Spin-off means it was setup by PIPS's ex-employee ... just pure speculation, no proof.

[sisco50]

No spin-off here. GINS is a whole new group. Led by a person known to have set up several ponzi schemes in the past. But yes, registered in Malaysia. (privacy factor I think) Peter, the owner of GINS is constantly being discussed at other sites I visit. He seems to be quite the slick operator. But only time will tell as I believe there are more copycats in the works and that will really weigh in the final outcome. The more competition, the sooner they will suffer lost support. (Kind of like new matris sites with stagnant lines a few days after launch.) lol

PIPS used to be registered in Malaysia but is now registered in Panama. Reason given for this was that Malaysian people could not join while PIPS was registered in Malaysia and there were thousands that wanted to join. Move to Panama solved problem.

[sisco50]

"So, without other genuine incomes (Even if they have, it is irrational why they would share their profit with small investors. It makes absolutely no sense), GINS, and eventually PIPS, will collapse."

yychen

As I have mentioned before in other threads and discussions regarding the PIPS program, you must first research and understand the program before you can spout off about it. At this point in time you are totally ignorant of the facts and therefore can not even do the math properly to figure whether or not this one can sustain its pay outs for any length of time. I say this with all due respect to your expertise in putting numbers together. This is not a slam on your abilities but no one can do the math properly without the factual data to work with. Having said that I can go on to a comparision of genuine income between the PIPS and the GINS programs.

Gins will have only one transparent source of income if and when they accumulate enough money to buy into the PPP. If they have other sources, they have not made it known to members as yet.

PIPS has many other sources of real income. But one must do some research to learn about the many other facets of the corporation and their method of operation. Little things like using 60% corporate funds and 40% investor funds when trading. They only pay the 2% on 40% of the total investment. (1.9% actually)

Anyway, at this point there is little comparision between the two programs regarding sources of real income. One is a legitimate corporation and the other is a quasi-ponzi at this point in time. Even tho GINS has tried to copy PIPS 100%, it is not possible to do so. In appearances they look alike, but in reality they are not/can not be alike.

[ycchen]

sisco50, I did do some research on PIPS. Our main disagreement is whether those 11 companies are for real. You take their words for it, but I don't. That's the main different. Only time will tell.

Here are my two questions for PIPS supporter.

1) If PIPS is for real corporate and not a quasi-ponzi scheme, why do you make comment that "it won't be able to sustain that for too long"? Why?

2) How do you explain why PIPS want to share their lucrative profit with small investors like yourself? Why don't they just keep it to themselves? Why?

[sisco50]

"I believe that other sources of income are mandatory if the new copycat program is to survive any time at all. The 3% that the PPP will provide is not compounded but the interest rate of 2% promised is compounded. Another case of simple math to realize that it won't be able to sustain that for too long. "

"1) If PIPS is for real corporate and not a quasi-ponzi scheme, why do you make comment that "it won't be able to sustain that for too long"? Why?"

yychen

If you re-read the above statement from my earlier post you will see that I was talking about GINS and not PIPS. GINS is the copycat in that statement. GINS will only have that one source of real income if and when they are able to participate in the PPP. This is why it will be difficult to sustain those kinds of pay outs. I say difficult but not impossible as I have read this morning that investment returns of 3 to 5% are normal in PPPs. Obviously the higher the return, the easier to pay out 2%.

"2) How do you explain why PIPS want to share their lucrative profit with small investors like yourself? Why don't they just keep it to themselves? Why?"

"sisco50, I did do some research on PIPS. Our main disagreement is whether those 11 companies are for real. You take their words for it, but I don't. That's the main different. Only time will tell."

You say you did some research on PIPS but you know nothing of why they need investors. This shows me that your due diligence never scratched the surface. All corporations are constantly looking for investors. Many ways to get money for your business growth. Many reasons for choosing the paths that are followed. Most reasons make sense from a business point of view and some may even be personal reasons. But bottom line is still that until you complete your due diligence you will not understand the program or why it works the way it does.

As far as our disagreement concerning real companies goes, I have not taken their word for it. I have done more than that to be sure. I can also tell you that a few of those entities are past start-up mode and are growing. I am sure that the monies loaned to PIPS is being used for just that. Keep in mind that I have loaned money to PIPS and they pay me interest on that loaned money. They use my money any way they like and I get interest for that! I have a person that has shown me enough proof of existance of brick & mortar companies to more than satisfy my level of comfort. This is why you must do your own due diligence and not rely on my answers to satisfy your level of comfort. :)

[sisco50]

yychen

I really hate that you were "quite annoyed" by anything I said in a previous post. Fact of the matter is that until you understand that particular program there is nothing I can say that will sound sensable to you. Therefore it is pointless for me to try and answer your questions. Aside from that is the fact that I am not trying to convince you of anything. You believe as you wish and I am happy for you. Otherwise, does the phrase "get bent" mean anything to you? You see, I couldn't care less what you believe so why would I try and tell you anything? You are the one that keeps asking questions. Sorry if my answers do not suit you. :(

[ycchen]

I think your defense (or promotion) of PIPS is pretty weak, and just by accursing others of not doing their homework is not going to do the trick, unfortunately.

How do you know the cash flows between PIPS and those startups? You don't, you just take their words for it. Have you seen their annual financial report? NOPE, because they have NONE, at least until now. Sure, they will present their financial statement at the end of this year -2005. Again, that's what they said ONLINE.

So, why are you so confident that PIPS can generate "other source of income" which is 7 times more than the money they 'borrow' from small investors? Because you believe so without hardcore evidences. Without any REAL information (in written form), except tons of pictures of the company visit or pictures of Bryan having good time, or audio/video tapes of Bryan talking to his belivers privately or in some PIPS conferences.

Without any written financial document, how do you know your money is used as a LOAN? Of course you can't, you CHOOSE to believe their words because your interest is tied to the scheme, at least until Feburary of this year. And I sincerely hope you earn the profit you have been promised. And I am sure you will given that you are not the late latecomers.

Frankly speaking, we read the same information ON THE WEB or from a friend (I have more Malaysian friend than you do, trust me), so I don't think you know more than I do, so if you want to debate, please refer to FACTS, and not your FAITH on the scheme. Unless, you have official documents sent to you when you loan your money to PIPS? If so, would you like to share with us? :)


As far as our disagreement concerning real companies goes, I have not taken their word for it. I have done more than that to be sure. I can also tell you that a few of those entities are past start-up mode and are growing. I am sure that the monies loaned to PIPS is being used for just that. Keep in mind that I have loaned money to PIPS and they pay me interest on that loaned money. They use my money any way they like and I get interest for that! I have a person that has shown me enough proof of existance of brick & mortar companies to more than satisfy my level of comfort. This is why you must do your own due diligence and not rely on my answers to satisfy your level of comfort. :)

Both of us agree on one thing. PIPS needs outside income to pay for >700% interest rate to small lenders like yourself. And so far, NO ONE, including yourself, can explain HOW they come up with those money. Simply be proving the existence of those 11 new companies does not equal to making 700% pure profit to pay back the small lenders. Don't tell me that you believe those new companies are making 7 times the money NOW. Okay, even if you believed that a few (how many?) of these companies have passed the "burning" money stage and "growing" (MAKING MONEY!?!, do you mean making money when you used the word -- growing?). So, which of the 11 companies have passed the "start-up" phrase? How much profit they are earning? How much money they are putting back to PIPS as "other source of income"? How do you know they put their money back to PIPS and not spend on buying another luxury car or mansion? HOW DO YOU KNOW the logistic links to all the above questions?

Sure, they CLAIMED that they are "borrowing" money from small investor as a loan, and pay a 700% interest on the loan. We have seen this arguement all over the WEB, so you don't need to spend too much time on google to know that :)

Let me state my questions again for the last time.
1) Where is PIPS' "other source of income" other than the loan they take from small INDIVIDUAL investors?

Your answer seems to imply that have 11 new companies (or startups) to make those money. Is this your final answer? If so, could you kindly show me a piece of financial statment to prove your point? :)

2) Why do they need to share their 700% profit with small investors/lenders?

Your answer:
They are borrowing money from small investors/lenders and pay 2% DAILY interest. (>700% annually) You did not answer my question! I am not asking "how they spend the money they collected from you"! Spending money is easy, they can always spend on new restaurants or real estate companies, or whatever. I am asking on their motive of sharing their 700% profit with you. Why?

If their business plans were so promising (700% profit rate), why don't they borrow money from instititions (instead of individual) such as MAY BANK (the largest bank in Malaysia) or Public Bank? They can easily negotiate an interest rate of less than 10%, instead of paying 700% to you? It make absolutely ZERO sense to me.

If it make sense to you, that's fine with me. Good luck and you don't need to answer my questions if you do not have real FACTS in any written forms. :) I don't think I am asking too much to have FACTS in written forms for THE most profitable Multinational Corporation in the world. You are in business too, and you know the important of written document.

I was about to let this go but was quite annoyed by your "due diligence" arguement. Unless you have real piece of evidences (company's official financial report that explain their cash-flow), otherwise, we do not need to argue on "word-of-month or web-based information". Trust me, if you can google a piece of information on PIPS, I can do the same. :) If you have a friend to give you a convincing answer at your level of comfort, I have MORE friends in Malaysia that tell me otherwise. :)

[ycchen]

Ha.. I have found an answer to my second question :Why Bryan want to share his 700% profit with small investor-turn-lenders (or whatever he likes to claim). Just read the BOLD part from a true believer. :D

educate4wealth
Executive Member



Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 156
Location: Nebraska
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: 2% Not HOW! WHY????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I woke up this morning at 6:00am and could not sleep any more. I couldn't get Bryan and PIPS out of my mind.

If there is one thing I cannot comprehend about Bryan and PIPS it is NOT HOW they can pay out 2% per day! What I cannot comprehend is WHY they are willing to do this for me!

I have had quite a bit of contact with professional investors and my personal friend list includes the CEO of a brokerage firm in Austin Texas as well as the president of the US Investor's Club. I have friends using the positional trading strategies taught by my friend who consistently earn 10 to 20 percent per month on their investments. I know that with consistent attention, adequate knowledge and tools and the ability to not get emotionally attached to your investments these returns are possible on a consistent basis regardless of whether the market is going down or up. It just has to be moving.

I have also been on a conference call with private placement traders who operate in a world that we cannot even imagine. These are investors with at least 100 million to trade with. The returns they are able to consistently earn without even placing their money at risk would make your eyes pop.

All that being said... Did you know that PIPS really only needs to earn 2% monthly to be able to pay you 2% daily? That's right... Let me explain:

1. 2% daily for 6 months (aprox. 120 trading days) on $100 is about $240
2. $100 of the $240 is your own money being returned so that would be $140 needed or 140%
3. If PIPS trades options on at least a 12 to 1 margin as Bryan said, that means they only need to earn about 12% on actual money to earn 140% over 6 months. That is 2% per month!

Of course we know that PIPS is not only trading options and Forex but also is involved in even more lucrative investments with their money.

Also they are trading their own money along with ours which decreases the needed earnings even more. Therefore the HOW does not even hold my attention for long. But WHY???

OK, this brings me back to my original statement. I cannot comprehend why Bryan and Sharon would be willing to put up with me and all of the rest of us and actually share his wealth with us.

Believe me folks. Bryan does not need us. He could easily spend his time managing his money and live like a king with only a small amount of time invested daily. He could relax on the beach or by his pool and be waited on hand and foot. (don't get any ideas Bryan! ) Is that perhaps the life you dream about?

Apparently Bryan is not like that. Apparently he has a dream and that dream is to empower individuals like me to make a difference in the world. Could it be that Bryan wants to put the money in the hands of tens of thousands of people so that the job of helping others is evenly distributed and this huge task and responsibility of relieving poverty and suffering and eliminating disease is taken on by many hands instead of only a few? It could be... I don't know.

I plan to go to Hawaii and see if I can get closer to the answer to this question. Bryan, I hope you are ready!

What I do know is that Bryan is more of a man than I am. If I get bombarded by negativity from those I am seeking to help, I find it very hard to push forward.

Please, lets rally behind this man and help him realize his dream. Let's lift him up and encourage him to go forward even when it seems that many of those he is helping are ungrateful.

I can only imagine what a difference it would make in the world if all this money was in the hands of people who want to make a difference! Just remember that along with increased money comes increased responsibility to your brother.

Jack

[ycchen]

Interesting news on PIPS. Since it was published on a legitimate media platform -- The Guardian, I am not worried that this info will vanish :) So, I just post a link below. Go and take a look.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_jobs_and_money/story/0,,1370962,00.html
The scheme that hopes to turn £1 into £5,000,000,000,000,000 Saturday December 11, 2004
The Guardian

[ycchen]

After wasting my time on reading all the "claims" and "excurses" on PIPS and its support forums all over the world, the conclusion is obvious: PIPS is nothing but a big PONZI SCAM!! :(

I think the front page of pips-scam.com had said it all!

http://www.pips-scam.com/
For those of you not familiar with real world investments, then PIPs may seem legit. Here are some facts about Pips, related to outside markets, and well as some questions you should ask yourself:

- Sure 2% per day is possible to earn investing in the real world in the short term, however sustaining such a high rate of return is nearly impossible for extended periods of time.

-Pips claims to be able to earn about 500% return over a year if compunded. Now, lets look at Berkshire Hathaway. They have averaged 22% return per year over the last 29 years. This is considered one of the best investment companies in the world. Think about it. It would take an amazing amount of luck, skill, and trading to gain returns that are 20X's that of BSH.

- Pips has claimed that they have $70 million in debt free capital of their own. Now ask yourself this. Why in the world are they bothering to get $450 deposits from thousands of people, paying 775% interest per year for these loans, when they can use their own capital for investing, or borrow from registered banks for only 8% interest/issue Bonds for 10%.

- Out of 80,000+ members, not one can claim that they have seen legitimate trading documents or proof of money being transfered by Bryan for investments. When Bryan is asked to show proof of trades, and investments, he refuses saying that its all a "secret".

Did you notice that the Pips Official forum seems more like a cult then an internet forum? Any member who doubts PIPs or asks a question about it's legitimacy is quickly considered a troll and spoken down to like they are an idiot. Read about how HYIP Investors can become cult like:
HYIP Cults - are you a member?

We Encourage you to tell others who are involved in PIPs to come to this site and check it out, atleast to get an unbiased view of things, however DO NOT SPAM!

Thanks you
Steven Elksburgh
Enter The Forum To Discuss PIPs Freely!

[sisco50]

After wasting my time on reading all the "claims" and "excurses" on PIPS and its support forums all over the world, the conclusion is obvious: PIPS is nothing but a big PONZI SCAM!! :(

I think the front page of pips-scam.com had said it all!

http://www.pips-scam.com/

Sorry you feel as if you wasted your time reading about PIPS. I believe that you really started to waste your time when you went to pips-scam.com for your research. That folder at TG is considered to be thye armpit of sites in the HYIP arena. It has nothing to offer but a small group of kids that are doing nothing more than name calling each other. :( I have been following that site since it first opened in November 2004 and it has gone nowhere. The few main posters are kids that were banned from the PIPS forum for doing the same thing they are doing now at pips-scam.com. The credibility of that site has been zero since the start. I would never consider bringing a post from there to MW to try and prove anything. Most comical. :)

[ycchen]

Sorry you feel as if you wasted your time reading about PIPS. I believe that you really started to waste your time when you went to pips-scam.com for your research. That folder at TG is considered to be thye armpit of sites in the HYIP arena. It has nothing to offer but a small group of kids that are doing nothing more than name calling each other. :( I have been following that site since it first opened in November 2004 and it has gone nowhere. The few main posters are kids that were banned from the PIPS forum for doing the same thing they are doing now at pips-scam.com. The credibility of that site has been zero since the start. I would never consider bringing a post from there to MW to try and prove anything. Most comical. :)

Of course, PIPS forum is "too mature" for me. I prefer "kids" who know how to distinguish a ponzi, than self-righteous adults would protect their interest in a ponzi at all cost. :) PIPS forum is similar to all the ponzi forum before their fail. Of course, it is "interesting" because of its cult-like culture created by believers. Most comical indeed :)

[sisco50]

hehehehe Yes, indeed it is. :)

[sisco50]

"Why have they ALREADY shut down GINS after a VERY SHORT WHILE
and not PIPS even though they have operated almost 2 years now???

You think they havent seen PIPS yet or what??"


I wonder what this is all about? I read this at TG this morning in the kiddie forum and find once again that it is totally wrong. GINS is not shut down and no one there knows anything about it. It is business as usual at GINS. Another tidbit of credible info from that gagle of morons? I think not. That source of info will become credible when pigs fly, as Dreamer would put it. :rolleyes:

[ycchen]

It is interesting why some "morons" actually make better arguement than self-righteous adults MOST of the time. I think those adults (especially those on PIPS forum, or pro-PIPS forum) are either worst than moron, or simply selfishly defense their own interest in the expense of others. Or both!? :rolleyes:

[sisco50]

ycchen

You could be right. I don't go to the PIPS forum at all anymore. I don't like the cheerleading as well as some of the other things that go on there. However, that does not change the fact that TG is not the place to get valid info about anything. I was just pointing out that their info is consistantly in error at TG, and pretty much why. I don't intend to get into a pissing contest over what site has BS instead of fact, but did think it prudent to mention it incase someone of intelligence was interested. I will not bring up the subject again as we all know about bringing a horse to water. :)

[69mike]

Hi,

After reading many posts, I realized that this is actually a ycchen vs. sisco50 forum.

You guys sound like the Good and Bad in all of us that appears on our shoulder telling us to do something..... should we or shouldn't we?

I guess it's alright... GINs and PIPs does promise alot...
Can it be for real?
Why would someone with the knowledge offer it to little investors?
All these questions are very good....

The fact of the matter is if you want to find out try it.
If it's a ponzi well you lost Money.
If it's for real, then you've made Money.

Each individual should make up their own mind.
If you can't afford to lose money, don't do it.
If you can't afford to lose out in a possible opportunity then do it.

Just don't bet the House on it.

You both have great ideas.

Thanks,

69mike

[sisco50]

Hi,

After reading many posts, I realized that this is actually a ycchen vs. sisco50 forum.

You guys sound like the Good and Bad in all of us that appears on our shoulder telling us to do something..... should we or shouldn't we?

I guess it's alright... GINs and PIPs does promise alot...
Can it be for real?
Why would someone with the knowledge offer it to little investors?
All these questions are very good....

The fact of the matter is if you want to find out try it.
If it's a ponzi well you lost Money.
If it's for real, then you've made Money.

Each individual should make up their own mind.
If you can't afford to lose money, don't do it.
If you can't afford to lose out in a possible opportunity then do it.

Just don't bet the House on it.

You both have great ideas.

Thanks,

69mike

This thread was not meant to be what you percieved it to be. However, some people tend to be hardheaded and really do wear blinders at times when trying to discuss topics that go against their grain. This thread may be a prime example of that. :)

[69mike]

i wonder why GINS has been shut down?

PIPS is still up....hmmmmm

Any ideas?

Does anyone care? lol

69mike

[69mike]

ooooo,

now PIPS site is down and GINS is still down.

It says something called CAD closed GINS to investigate it.

PIPS, I have no clue why it's down... does anyone know?

Does anyone care?

LOL

69mike

[sisco50]

ooooo,

now PIPS site is down and GINS is still down.

It says something called CAD closed GINS to investigate it.

PIPS, I have no clue why it's down... does anyone know?

Does anyone care?

LOL

69mike

My understanding is that PIPS has shut down their forum and has made a new site for members only. I was there last night and it was working but slowly. :)

[Pips believer]

Post removed by moderator, Please do not spam the same post to multiple threads. You have the same exact post on four threads, so the extras have been deleted.