answer this one

[uwantme]

Sites will continue to grow and get better.

Now I have read your points as to what makes a matrix site "wrong" so answer this:

What if:

a site sold tangable products. I.E. clothes, jewelry, etc. You payed the same price for these items as if you bought them in the store. So instead of paying money for an e-book that you claim is not worth it. You would pay money(the same price as in a store) for a t-shirt, ring, etc and get entered into the matrix list.

there was a cut off on the lists themselves.. For example the site states that after 50 people are on the list no new names will be added. So how do those 50 that are left cycle- though the continued sales of the tangable goods on the site. Things people would normally buy even if there was no free gift invovled like the t-shirts, rings etc. Meaning that even without a free gift being offered these items would still sell because it is items people normally buy on a regular basis. So the names left on the list will still conitnue to cycle without the list becoming endless, in fact the list would quickly be empty again.

the site terms and conditions state very clearly that cycling is based solely upon the sales a site makes and that if the sales are not met you do not cycle and you do not recieve your free gift.

Now all this above takes away the illegal lotterey aspect, its not an endless ponzi scheme, and they are not committing fraud. So tell me whats wrong with a matrix site like this? Or is it even still considered a matrix site.

Your answer ought to be very interesting. and I cant wait to here it.

[MatrixWatch]

Your idea is different and creative, and it is clearly born out of all the recent problems in the matrix world. I respect the time you put into it. Now, you said that this new structure would avoid the lottery problem. Not true. To avoid the illegal lottery problem you would need to allow people to join the matrix list WITHOUT having to purchase the product. I have heard many arguments in support of the matrx sites' legitimacy by appeals to better products, shorter cylce lists, structures more unlinke pyramid/ponzi schemes, etc. What is not realized here is that the lawsuit drives at the very heart of the matrix system. They cannot offer the free "gift" of the matrix entry, but require a person to buy a product to enter it.

Also, you mentioned that the TOS would state that,

"...cycling is based solely upon the sales a site makes and that if the sales are not met you do not cycle and you do not recieve your free gift."

Notice, it says IF the sales are not met. That means there is the chance that sales might not be met. This makes it a game of chance. So, you are requiring people to buy a product in order for them to enter a game of chance. This is in danger of being classified in the same category as the sites in the lawsuit. I would not go so far as to say the matrix sites are illegal. That will be determined by the courts. But I will say that your idea, as creative and thoughtful as it is, still does not address the issues that the lawsuit alleges.

[uwantme]

Whoa whoa whoa, you keep trying to mix things around. If you are buying a product that is worth the cost you are paying for it then what difference does it make if you are being given a free gift.

If you are paying the same thing for a t-shirt that you would go to walmart to buy and for buying that t-shirt you are getting a free gift how is that still an illegal lotterey. You are getting what you paid for and its worth the price you are paying. You are not paying for the chance to get a free gift you are paying for a shirt just as if you went to a store and bought it and with your purchase they give you a coupon for $5 off your next purchase. Its the same thing. the price and worth of e-book can be debated. but tangable goods have retail values set for them by the market. Where I can go to a 100 stores and show you the average price people are paying for a shirt and what it is really worth.

Next i threw in about the terms and conditions because I saw someone post that it was fraud because site owners didnt let their members know what it takes to require them to cycle. Well if the site is upfront and says sells must be met in order to cycle. This is not saying you might not cycle, its saying you cant join and expect to have your free gift in 1day. It means you must understand and expect to recieve your free gift only after the sales are made that is required to cycle.

The only way chance would be invovled with that is if it the site shut down. However having policies like that on a site that limits its lists means you would cycle. Its not a matter of chance but just how long you have to wait for those sells to be met. Since sells arent based on e-books but tangible items you know the sales will eventually be met.

There is no game of chance by buying a real product proven to be worth the value you pay for it and then waiting to recieve a free gift for your purchase.

[MatrixWatch]

I am not mixing anything around, and I do not believe you understand what I am saying.

You said,
"If you are paying the same thing for a t-shirt that you would go to walmart to buy and for buying that t-shirt you are getting a free gift how is that still an illegal lotterey. You are getting what you paid for and its worth the price you are paying. You are not paying for the chance to get a free gift you are paying for a shirt..."

I agree with you that you may offer a free gift incentive to a customer who buys your goods. However, in the terms and conditions you must CLEARLY state that a customer may enter the prize matrix WITHOUT having to purchase the item advertized. Matrix sites refuse to do this because it keeps them from making money. In fact, if a matrix site set itself up legally, then they would lose money. No one would buy the e-books, t-shirts, etc. and customers would flood the site with requests to enter the contest for free. The customers are legally entitled to the free entry without having to pay for it. You are more than welcome to go forward with your idea, but it is still set up as an illegal lottery.

You and the other site owners may say whatever you want in your Terms and Conditions, but it will not give you more legal power than your customers have right now.

The reason I brought up the issue of chance is because you said:

"...cycling is based solely upon the sales a site makes and that if the sales are not met you do not cycle and you do not recieve your free gift."

You admit that it is a game of chance because you state that IF the sales are not met you do not cycle. Whether or not the person cycles is based upon the yet undertermined amount of people who join afterwards. There is a possiblility that the people will sign up, and there is a possibility that they will not. The reason you state it this way is to avoid a guarantee of cycling. By doing this however, you have left the process up to chance. You did not say "WHEN the sales...", you said "IF the sales..." In your attempt to avoid being labeled as a fraud, you labeled yourself as a lottery.

[uwantme]

I have thought of a real life example to support what Im saying.

I live on the east coast and we have Subways. You know a restaruant. When you buy a sub from them they will give you a subway card. Then every time you buy a 12" sub you get a sticker for your card. when you get 8 stickers on your card you get a free sub.

So in order to get your free gift(i.e. the sub) you must buy a sub and then continue to buy subs until the required sales are met.

This is the same scenerio played out by a nation wide franchise. If you dont buy enough subs you dont get the free sub. So does that mean Subway has been running an illegal lottery for years, all across the nation?

[tcb1969a]

uwantme, Congratulations on the Subway analogy. Watch Dog will have a hard time arguing that point....

[MatrixWatch]

It is not the same thing because Subway is not entering the customer's name into a lottery. Subway it just offering a "baker's dozen" deal on their sandwiches. In the MSNBC article, my attorney talks about the same situation.

"Let’s say it’s a haircut place," said Wilens. "If you get 10 haircuts, the 10th is free. There’s nothing illegal about that. But suppose in addition, we take everybody’s (name), throw it into a bin, and a person wins a trip to Hawaii. That’s illegal. Offering a chance to win a prize even though you have provided a service is a lottery” under California state law."

[uwantme]

Thanks, I was proud of myself for thinking about it, but the sub I had for dinner from them helped Im sure. Also the site I described above is a real site. Anyone interested in it can send me a PM or Note or whatever they are called here and I can give you more details. :D

[uwantme]

What you just said makes no sense watchdog.

So your saying that all matrices site owners have to do is say after you buy your item we will add your name to the list only if you want us to and then its not illegal? Because we are not just throwing names into a bin anymore, only the ones who want to participate- so the ones who are getting the haircuts, subs etc. Because the same basis is still there. To get a free haircut ten have to be bought first. So the sales have to be met to get that haircut just like the sales have to be met on a matrix site.

So yeah, basically if owners just ask first "hey do you want your name added to the list" then add it if they want, dont add it if they dont want, then everythings okay?

[Arzel]

That is an interesting scenario that you present.

I am curious though. How would you be able to generate enough profit to provide the free gift in your matrix example?....at least to have a reasonable expectation of ever recieving a free gift.

You make a good point on the Subway issue. It is not quite the same since you do not require additional people to buy subs to get your free sub, and no matter when you buy your sub the time to get a free sub would only depend you yourself. One additional point is the state laws regarding these kind of promotions. I do not live in California, but I do know that some states and localities have different regulations on free gift. Maybe you can't get a free sub in Californiam but I really don't know.

In my town there is a restaruant which I go to on occasion that has a gumball machine. Buy a gumball and get a chance to win a free cookie. Seems pretty innocent, but apparently there is a law against these kind of free gifts so they had to stop giving a free cookie. I know other places that do it, so it is apparently a local or state thing. I guess the logic was that if you let people do something little like that, then where do you set the line.

Back to your matrix though. Would you still call it a matrix site? I have made points to this course of reasoning before. Why look for a way to make a matrix legal? When you move along that path you would find that you would be creating simply a regular business. If there was a need and/or desire for the items you were selling why even make it a matrix? Seems to me that when you reached the 50 max length for a matrix there would be little incentive to buy that item, especially if you had other items which still had a matrix, otherwise why not just go to Wall-mart, or where ever, you would probably be able to buy the same item for less than you could sell it and not have to pay for shipping.

[peterdragin]

Well then tell us where this site is so we can go enter the matrix for a free "gift", and we do not have to buy any T shirts or anything else. If they will not allow this it's a Lottery !!!!

Take Publishers Clearing House, everyone gets them in the mail, there are 6 pages of magazine subscriptions, BUT you don't have to buy any of them to get into the drawing for a Million Bucks, hence it's not a lottery !!

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Well then tell us where this site is so we can go enter the matrix for a free "gift", and we do not have to buy any T shirts or anything else. If they will not allow this it's a Lottery !!!!

Take Publishers Clearing House, everyone gets them in the mail, there are 6 pages of magazine subscriptions, BUT you don't have to buy any of them to get into the drawing for a Million Bucks, hence it's not a lottery !!

Yes and how many times have they been sued because they make it look in their literature that you have to buy something in order to win. They have been sued so many times for their deceptive practices. Yet I have to keep pointing this out that this is a poor analogy...........

[uwantme]

okay I will try to answer all you questions let m eknow if I miss one:

"How would you be able to generate enough profit to provide the free gift in your matrix example?...."

The items are bought at wholesale, just the way Walmart, or any other business buys there items. I will use another food scenerio. I worked for our local Papa Johns which is a pizza place. It cost the store approx. 25 cent to make a large pizza which was sold to the customer for $12.99. All stores buy their merchandise for pennies on the dollar. You just have to know how and where to find wholesalers to get your goods from.

" It is not quite the same since you do not require additional people to buy subs to get your free sub, and no matter when you buy your sub the time to get a free sub would only depend you yourself."

Technically having additional people to help you reach the required sales would be a bonus but in the same scenerio you could keep buying the tangible products yourself until you bought enough to cycle yourself. So the time you get your free gift is still dependent upon you. Remember this site isnt offering e-books but actual products like jewelry, t-shirts, etc. so you have many options to choose from and they are things people may want many of.

"Buy a gumball and get a chance to win a free cookie. Seems pretty innocent, but apparently there is a law against these kind of free gifts so they had to stop giving a free cookie. I know other places that do it, so it is apparently a local or state thing. I guess the logic was that if you let people do something little like that, then where do you set the line."

We have these machines all over where I live too. They are actually in our Walmart Store( free food), Our McDonalds(free kids meal), and Our Blockbuster Video(free rental). I have no idea about this, maybe it is a state law thing but they are definately legal where I live and have been around longer than I can remember.

"Why look for a way to make a matrix legal? When you move along that path you would find that you would be creating simply a regular business. "

Because getting free electronics is a great deal no matter where you live or how you think and everyone could use some of those. For example say you bought a shirt at walmart. 2 months later a free laptop shows up at your door with a note from wal-mart saying "hey we met our required sales for t-shirts this month so to say thanks we are sending free laptops to some of our customers. Are you going to say no to a free laptop? Or that you dont want it? this might not be the best example but it makes the piont. If you can help people get electronics they normally couldnt afford why not help them?

"If there was a need and/or desire for the items you were selling why even make it a matrix? Seems to me that when you reached the 50 max length for a matrix there would be little incentive to buy that item, especially if you had other items which still had a matrix, otherwise why not just go to Wall-mart, or where ever, you would probably be able to buy the same item for less than you could sell it and not have to pay for shipping."

You offer the free incentives for the peole and publicity that it brings to your site. Those people will tell other people and tell them and show them the merchadise they did buy. Its a great way to kick off a website. Just like when new resturants open they offer free meals, or when new products come out they are usually buy one get one free. Its for the attention it grabs that helps your site stay popular later. Most of any stores business comes from repeat customers. Those first customers that come to your site are more than likely going to be repeat customers. Why buy that item? Why do you choose k-mart, walmart, or any store. what they sell might be cheaper on the website than you can get where you live. You they might not even sell that product where you live. Thats why people will continue to buy from the site even after the incentives are gone. For the same reason anyone shops at any store, and the intial publicity you get from the free promotions should keep enough people coming to your site. Oh yeah shipping is still free on the items you buy too. Shipping is payed for by the site. So you dont have to pay to have it shipped to you and it is even sent with delivery confirmation.


I think that answers everything.

[MatrixWatch]

Matrix sites are designed to make money. If you run them legally, no money can possibly be made. Yes, they resemble a pyramid or ponzi, but the illegal lottery aspect is a more straightforward and conclusive case. It doesn't matter if it is the customer's choice or not to enter the matrix. The issue is whether or not the customer had to buy something in order to enter the matrix list. If an e-book or a t-shirt had to be purchased so that the person's name could be put on a list, then the site runs the risk of violating state laws concerning illegal lotteries.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Well then tell us where this site is so we can go enter the matrix for a free "gift", and we do not have to buy any T shirts or anything else. If they will not allow this it's a Lottery !!!!

Take Publishers Clearing House, everyone gets them in the mail, there are 6 pages of magazine subscriptions, BUT you don't have to buy any of them to get into the drawing for a Million Bucks, hence it's not a lottery !!

Your changing the subject: to get the subway card you have to buy a sub first and then fill it with stickers, to get the free haircut you have to buy 10 others first. So how is that any different, and why are those not considered illegal lotteries?

I have never recieved anything from publishers clearinghouse so I cannot comment on how it works.

But please answer my question above.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by watchdog
Matrix sites are designed to make money. If you run them legally, no money can possibly be made. Yes, they resemble a pyramid or ponzi, but the illegal lottery aspect is a more straightforward and conclusive case. It doesn't matter if it is the customer's choice or not to enter the matrix. The issue is whether or not the customer had to buy something in order to enter the matrix list. If an e-book or a t-shirt had to be purchased so that the person's name could be put on a list, then the site runs the risk of violating state laws concerning illegal lotteries.

Sorry watchdog but your still not making sense and it doesnt explain why its okay then to buy 10 haircuts to get one free because they are still having to buy something. Lots of somethings in fact, but not to buy another tangilble item and after the required sales are met to get one free.

Also ALL businesses are designed to make money. Hence why its called business. What you saying is that is a business is designed to make money they must be illegal? Oh no, watch out wal-mart, and ebay!!!

[peterdragin]

The haircut guy is not giving you a free haircut because 10
people after you got a haircut , it's because you got the 10 haircuts.

[uwantme]

I already answered this too:

Technically having additional people to help you reach the required sales would be a bonus but in the same scenerio you could keep buying the tangible products yourself until you bought enough to cycle yourself. I.E. met the required sales. There is no rule in matrix systems that says you cant buy as many as you want until you recieve your free gift. So the time you get your free gift is still dependent upon you. Remember this site isnt offering e-books but actual products like jewelry, t-shirts, etc. so you have many options to choose from and they are things people may want many of, just like subs and haircuts. Its all about required sales regardless of whether someone is helping you reach the required sales or if you have to make them all on your own.

[Arzel]

Publisher's Clearing House states that it is not a requirement to buy magazines. That statement is not always clear, hence the various lawsuits against them. A matrix, however, does require you purchase an ebook or other item.

There is NO way that it cost Pappa Johns $0.25 to make a pizza they sell for $12.99. During my college days I worked for Pizza Hut, Rax, was an assist mgr for a Subway, and also worked in an upscale restaruant. Pizza Hut in 1990 had a net cost of approximately %3.50 for a large pan pepperoni pizza which they sold for $10. When adding in overhead costs the margin was less then 30% on a pizza. Subway had about a 40% to 50% margin on subs depending on whether you got a 6in or a 12in. Rax restaraunt had smaller margins than either, but I do remember that the margin on fountain pop was quite high in all places. About $0.15 to $0.20 for a 16oz glass. In general a 100% markup is considered retail price for an item, but the actual markup is usually closer to 25% to 40%.

The only time I have seen people get merchandise for pennies on the dollar are fire sale items, or over produced items like the crap you see in dollar stores, but who would really want that stuff?

Why not just give people a buy one get one free t-shirt? I still say that the stuff on this site would be quite a bit higher than what you could buy it elsewhere anyway. If people really wanted it there would be no reason to make a matrix site to sell it. Once the matrix limit was reached there would be no incentive to buy this stuff.

If you could buy, say 10 t-shirts and get a free lap-top though I would do that, like subway that is.

[Arzel]

The point about the subs and haircut you are not getting is as such.

Lets say Tom, Bill, Harry, Jill, and Sue went to subway in that order.

Tom buys 5 subs, Bill buys 3 subs, Harry, Jill, and Sue all buy 1 sub.

the list looks like this.

Tom
Tom
Tom
Tom
Tom
Bill
Bill
Bill
Harry
Jill (Tom gets a free Sub)
Sue

Sure sue could cycle her own free sub, but if she wanted it right now she would have to buy 4 for Tom, 3 for Bill, 1 for Harry, and 1 for Jill. She would have bought 110 subs before she got her free sub, and Tom, Bill, Harry, and Jill all get free subs purely because they happened to be in front of Sue. Doesn't seem very fair does it?

[uwantme]

To reply once agian:

"There is NO way that it cost Pappa Johns $0.25 to make a pizza they sell for $12.99."

I worked there for over a year and since i didnt actually buy the products I dont know but our manager and store owner told us this quite often.

"The only time I have seen people get merchandise for pennies on the dollar are fire sale items, or over produced items like the crap you see in dollar stores, but who would really want that stuff?"

Wholesale dealers are out there everywhere. Where do you think walmart and stores like that get their items. Just becuase you havent found them doesnt mean they arent out there and that they arent quality products. Also just a side note- our dollar store does very well and is one of the biggest stores where i live. So appearently alot of people want stuff like that. Just because you dont that doesnt speak for the masses. No one business can target every audience.

"I still say that the stuff on this site would be quite a bit higher than what you could buy it elsewhere anyway. "

There will always be someplace you could buy it cheaper. Why do people shop at Target when they could shop at Walmart and save a few bucks? Whether you could buy it elsewhere for cheaper or not is debatable. Im sure that for every place that may sell it cheaper there is probably a place that sells it for more.

"If people really wanted it there would be no reason to make a matrix site to sell it. Once the matrix limit was reached there would be no incentive to buy this stuff."

That depends on how you veiw the matrix. If their is a limit to your lists and your offering it like a grand opening promotion then its a great advertising tool to get customers. I answered all this before. Here it is again. Its a great way to kick off a website. Just like when new resturants open they offer free meals, or when new products come out they are usually buy one get one free. Its for the attention it grabs that helps your site stay popular later. Most of any stores business comes from repeat customers. Those first customers that come to your site are more than likely going to be repeat customers. Why buy that item? Why do you choose k-mart, walmart, or any store. what they sell might be cheaper on the website than you can get where you live. You they might not even sell that product where you live. Thats why people will continue to buy from the site even after the incentives are gone. For the same reason anyone shops at any store, and the intial publicity you get from the free promotions should keep enough people coming to your site.

"If you could buy, say 10 t-shirts and get a free lap-top though I would do that, like subway that is."

My dear but you see it is like this. Once you meet the required sales you get your item. So if you are 2nd on the list and it only takes 3 to cycle- which are most of the cycle lenghts on this site, after you make 6 more purchases you get a free laptop. The best part about a matrix is that you dont have to make those 6 sales on your own. Even if you where #50 on the list and the last spot with a 3 person cycle thats still only 150 sales that have to be made in order for the entire list to be cleared and for all 50 people on it to recieve their items. 150 sales of real tangiable products whether you buy all those sales yourself or someone else buys them. When they are met you get your item.

Really its no different than if subway said you have to buy 150 subs to get a free one. There os no limit on what the required sales have to be and it still falls back to the same scenerio.

Im enjoying this: Bring it on!!!

[uwantme]

Originally posted by Arzel
The point about the subs and haircut you are not getting is as such.

Lets say Tom, Bill, Harry, Jill, and Sue went to subway in that order.

Tom buys 5 subs, Bill buys 3 subs, Harry, Jill, and Sue all buy 1 sub.

the list looks like this.

Tom
Tom
Tom
Tom
Tom
Bill
Bill
Bill
Harry
Jill (Tom gets a free Sub)
Sue

Sure sue could cycle her own free sub, but if she wanted it right now she would have to buy 4 for Tom, 3 for Bill, 1 for Harry, and 1 for Jill. She would have bought 110 subs before she got her free sub, and Tom, Bill, Harry, and Jill all get free subs purely because they happened to be in front of Sue. Doesn't seem very fair does it?

Thats when it becomes the responsibilty of the site owners once again to make the lists veiwable for all people before they buy. Then sue will know what her required sales are. If she doesnt agree to that then she doesnt have to join. Just like if you dont want to get 10 subs to get a free one you dont have to participate. However sue shouldnt be joining for the free gift alone anyway. She should be happy with her intial purchase and if she doesnt feel her intial purchase is worth the price she has to pay without the free gift then sue shouldnt be spending her money.

[Arzel]

Wallmart, K-mart, Target, all have their own distribution networks, that is why they are able to sell things so cheaply. Although target seems to view itself as a somewhat upscale place, that they no longer fit that category.

I don't know what the reasoning for your owner/manager would be for making such a claim, maybe he was referring to just the dough and sauce. Cheese is a pretty expensive part of the pizza, plus Pappa John's is the take and bake place right? That would reduce the cost as well.

Dollar stores do well because they sell stuff for a dollar, or very close to it. Who is going to buy that stuff for retail?

The main issue though is why would people come back to your site if the driving force behind the initial sales was a potential free gift? If the items were really something people wanted then I could see that as the case, but if they are primarly interested in the free stuff they would stop comming back when the promotion is over.

Those kind of promotions have not been extremely effective in recent years. Take McDonalds for example. When they were the only game in town they did not do many promotions, they didn't need to. As Burger King, Hardees (or Carl's Junior for those not in the midwest), Arby's, Wendy's, and ect came into the picture they started doing their promotions. Monopoly, $0.99 menus, Whopper Wednesday, you name it. In recent years, McDonald's, as well as BK have come to realize that customers were expecting these promotions pretty much all of the time. The only way to keep people coming is to run promotions non-stop. McDonald's even stated a few years ago that they were going to stop some of their promotions, and they ended up closing stores for the first time in their history. Those promotions are back.

People are fickle. If they can get a better deal somewhere else on the same thing then that is where they go. Store loyalty is a thing of the past, and your customers are not going to be any different, the majority of repeat business you are going to get is going to be for the matrix list, lest us not forget that these customers are looking for a good deal, that is why they came to you in the first place.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
Matrix sites are designed to make money. If you run them legally, no money can possibly be made. Yes, they resemble a pyramid or ponzi, but the illegal lottery aspect is a more straightforward and conclusive case. It doesn't matter if it is the customer's choice or not to enter the matrix. The issue is whether or not the customer had to buy something in order to enter the matrix list. If an e-book or a t-shirt had to be purchased so that the person's name could be put on a list, then the site runs the risk of violating state laws concerning illegal lotteries.

Ok, Watch Dog, why is it illegal for someone to purchase something so that the person can be entered into something that will get him/her a free gift. Why is that wrong or illegal? And please don't say because certain states say it is a illegal lottery. I have heard that enough, I want to know the specifics of why it is....not that it just is...........

[MatrixWatch]

Good question, and I believe it is one of the most important ones yet. I just answered this question in the thread entitled "Illegal Lottery". Go ahead and read it, then post your response in that thread instead of this one.

[tcb1969a]

Will do Watch Dog....

[uwantme]

I already did and you really didnt answer anything as I just proved on that post. I dont think your answer is going to satisfy tcb1969, just as it didnt fly with me.

[tcb1969a]

Your right "uwantme", it didn't satisfy me either....

[CurtXxX]

I have to comment here too and sorry if it is a little off topic...whoever said it costs only .25 to make a pizza better go get his/her head examined - that is probably the dumbest comment I have heard in a long time. I feel more stupid having read that. People...please put some thought into your posts.

[uwantme]

That was my post and please read all of it:

I worked there for over a year and since i didnt actually buy the products I dont know but our manager and store owner told us this quite often.

Who was I to question them, youd be surprised at how cheap most things really are.

This was also posted about it:

I don't know what the reasoning for your owner/manager would be for making such a claim, maybe he was referring to just the dough and sauce.

So you see it is possible. Why would they lie to their employess? You go work for them secretly find out the true cost and why they lied about it and you can post it here.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by CurtXxX
I have to comment here too and sorry if it is a little off topic...whoever said it costs only .25 to make a pizza better go get his/her head examined - that is probably the dumbest comment I have heard in a long time. I feel more stupid having read that. People...please put some thought into your posts.

I admit it does sound implausible that a pizza could cost only 25 cents to make a pizza, but who knows it just might. I don't work in a pizza place so I would not know....

[peterdragin]

It's possible that the makings for a pizza, but add in salarys, advertizing, rents ,insurance, etc.

Not a quarter anymore.

[uwantme]

However this is getting way off topic. Bottom line to the whole pizza aurguement was the price you pay in stores is not the price the stores pay for that item. Thats how matrix sites can offer real items and still make a profit. Plus most matrix sites dont have employess, salaries,etc....

[hurley9192]

I am assuming that without all the overhead, matrix sites make about the same as a retailer. My too often used example of golf clubs, people pay $45 each for a total collected of $900 for a set and then one person gets a set. So, the matrix owner collects $900, which is about the same as a retailer, and then has to go buy the set, for about $500 or so. So, all in all, they make a decent profit.

For site owners, if you are paying wholesale more than $500 for a set of clubs, you are getting ripped off. I have done tons of accounting consulting for country clubs and the usual wholesale price for a set of these is about that.

So, they probably aren't making more than the average retailer on what they are getting rid of. However, that's not our argument.

[hurley9192]

Now I'm hungry for subs after reading page one...in CA, you can get a free sub and I am going to get one after work because I am craving one now and have my 12 stamps.

Your example would work if you allowed every person that paid in 10 times or whatever to be able to cycle, but then you defeat the purpose because why would they pay in 10 times to get something for retail price. They could buy the same thing on ebay for much less.

You example would work like this...buy 10 tshirts for $45 each and get a free TV. However, your logic doesn't work that well because you make the order that people get their products based on first come first serve.

Your subway example is flawed because if you compare it to how a matrix works...here it is...50 people are in line at subway and all pay their $5 for a footlong sub. Only the first $10 get subs because they are first in line. One person gets a sub every time 5 more people all come in and pony up their $5. And while they wait, they get some ebook or gumball or whatever to tide them over. Chances are, not too many people are going to come to subway adn pay $5 and hope that about 50 more people show up so they can get a free sub and just take some ebook in the mean time.

It would maybe work that if every time you bought a sub, you entered a list and then every time 5 more people bought subs, they would give a free sub to the person at the top of the list.

The problem there is that the people are still paying full price for their sub.

For those who are lost as to why I am posting this now, I just read the first page of this thread and it is much more relevant then.

[concerned]

I am reading the example about the T-shirts, and it makes no sense. Let me try to explain what a simple business plan would be for this.

First of all, the way that Matrix sites work, is that they sell e-books. Now, the e-books costs $0.00 each for the matrix site owner to sell (OK, maybe it costed $55 at one point, but after you sell 15,000, the cost becomes less than $.01). They sell them for $55 and put your name into the matrix, and the money goes towards costs. Out of the $55, maybe $35 of the money goes towards the prize, $17 towards expenses, and $3 goes to the matrix owner as profit. (I really don't know how this works, but I assume that the owner makes some money or this wouldn't be a "LEGIT" business) In this scenario, you would take the $35 and multiply it by the number of people it takes to cycle, and then you can determine what to give away. In this scenario, with a 20 person cycle, you can give away something worth $700, like the golf clubs that rsient.com gave away.

Now, let's do the same with T-shirts and try to give away the same $700 golf clubs.

You say that you will sell t-shirts for the same price that a store like WalMart sells t-shirts to be "LEGIT". OK, let's say that a customer will buy a t-shirt for $20. Now usually in retail, there is a 100% markup in merchandise, so it would cost the matrix owner $10 each, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and allow you to know that extremely secret wholesale warehouse that sells them for only $5. That leaves $15. Now, $8 goes towards expenses (it would actually be more, since you would be paying taxes and storage fees to store the t-shirts), and $2 profit for the owner. That leaves $5 to go towards the free prize. In order to get $700 for the same gift, you would have to have a cycle of 140 people for the first person to get the prize.

My question is:

Why would you even bother to do this with a cycle of 140 people? Wouldn't it be better to just sell t-shirts and keep the extra $5?

By the way, I also mentioned the evil three letter word in my scenario, "TAX".

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL LEGIT BUSINESSES PAY TAXES.

ARE THE MATRIX OWNERS DOING THAT?

[Arzel]

Concerned,

That is a better, and more detailed example than I gave, but I don't think it will matter much to uwantme. He/She seems more intent on trying to come up with a way to make an illegal process legal.

In answer to your question on taxes, my educated guess is less than half are filling the appropriate forms to cycle winners which would imply that the owners are indeed keeping accurate tax information.

[concerned]

Arzel

Thanks. My comment about the TAXES were aimed at those that are running the Matrix sites as even more proof that they are not running a LEGIT business. I didn't need an answer, because I know that the answer is NO.

It is just one more piece of information that the MATRIX owners need to have to prove that they are NOT running a scam. If they show their Tax ID number then maybe it will prove that they are running a business that is slightly more legit than the others. Remember, a tax ID number does not prove that a business is legit, it only proves that they are registered to pay their share of taxes.

And by the way, since I assume that the owners would say that their ID Numbers are proprietary, there are ways of finding out if they have one.

[concerned]

Arzel

I did't think about the winners paying taxes. I was thinking about the matrix owners paying INCOME TAX.

Maybe someone that won something worth more than $1200 would like to comment about this. Were you told that you would have to pay federal income taxes? Were you given appropriate forms?

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Concerned,

That is a better, and more detailed example than I gave, but I don't think it will matter much to uwantme. He/She seems more intent on trying to come up with a way to make an illegal process legal.

In answer to your question on taxes, my educated guess is less than half are filling the appropriate forms to cycle winners which would imply that the owners are indeed keeping accurate tax information.

Funny, Arzel, I was unaware that the courts have already made a ruling that Matrix sites were illegal.....

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
Arzel

Thanks. My comment about the TAXES were aimed at those that are running the Matrix sites as even more proof that they are not running a LEGIT business. I didn't need an answer, because I know that the answer is NO.

It is just one more piece of information that the MATRIX owners need to have to prove that they are NOT running a scam. If they show their Tax ID number then maybe it will prove that they are running a business that is slightly more legit than the others. Remember, a tax ID number does not prove that a business is legit, it only proves that they are registered to pay their share of taxes.

And by the way, since I assume that the owners would say that their ID Numbers are proprietary, there are ways of finding out if they have one.

If a business is a owned by one individual, then they will only use their social security # in lew of a tax id #.

And yes Matrix owners have to pay taxes its the law. Of course most states do not require internet companies to pay sales tax. Of course that could change in the upcoming years.......

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
Arzel

I did't think about the winners paying taxes. I was thinking about the matrix owners paying INCOME TAX.

Maybe someone that won something worth more than $1200 would like to comment about this. Were you told that you would have to pay federal income taxes? Were you given appropriate forms?

Yes I was told, but I didn't win that much money yet, but I knew it before hand....long before I decided to be a customer of matrix sites. In fact I asked one company so that I would know how it worked, and they were more than happy to tell me...

[Arzel]

This thread was started with the premise that if existing matrix sites were illegal would the example given be legal. Regardless if that is the eventual outcome, the initial scope of this thread makes that assumption.

I have seen several people over the past half year make the same basic statement. "If you (referring to people like myself) believe the matrix to be illegal than what do you think about this idea, would it still be illegal?" To which I reply. "If you would accept that the basic ebook matrix is illegal why do you wish to make it legal by changing it ever so slightly?"

Why not come up with some new idea of selling stuff and work forward to see if it is illegal. I see so many people with the end result of a matrix working backwards to try and make it a viable idea, but because it is based of the ponzi principle it just doesn't work. Start forward. Come up with some business plan and develop a marketing plan to sell the idea. A matrix is nothing more than a marketing plan without the business idea.

[tcb1969a]

Ok...Arzel this is what I was referring to:

"He/She seems more intent on trying to come up with a way to make an illegal process legal."

In this statement there is no assumption. It plainly is implying that the Matrix idea is illegal.

Also this whole site assumes way to much....

[MaxPower]

Who says an assumption is bad? Assumption does not automatically = wrong.
Heck, most assumptions here prove to be right. Here's one for you tcb... I "Maxpower" assume that these two new websites created by EZexpo will suffer the same fate as their parent company. I assume they both will also eventually come to a standstill and create a few more angry customers. However, their TOS may protect them a little better, but I am not sure if the TOS can protect them enough. If the systems do indeed prove to be illegal... the TOS will not overide the law.:cool:

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by MaxPower
Who says an assumption is bad? Assumption does not automatically = wrong.
Heck, most assumptions here prove to be right. Here's one for you tcb... I "Maxpower" assume that these two new websites created by EZexpo will suffer the same fate as their parent company. I assume they both will also eventually come to a standstill and create a few more angry customers. However, their TOS may protect them a little better, but I am not sure if the TOS can protect them enough. If the systems do indeed prove to be illegal... the TOS will not overide the law.:cool:

Has anyone ever taught you what happens when you assume?

[MaxPower]

Yes... I've heard that one. However... when you tell somebody that... it tarnishes your reputation much much worse than any assumption. Tell someone that little trick and they will think you are the king of lamesville.

[tcb1969a]

Perhaps, MaxPower, but it is true none the less.....

[dwin75]

I realize I am entering this discussion kind of late, but I just wanted to make a few points.

With regards to the whole discussion of buying items at wholesale ... Places like Walmart, Target or even Papa Johns are buying items at wholesale but are also buying them in huge volumes, which amounts to massive discounts. I work in embedded systems development and when my company looks to develop a product, it makes a huge difference when buying, say a micro-processor whether you intend to buy 1,000 units, vs. 100,000. You get a much better price/unit when you buy 100,000.

So an individual looking to start a business is not going to be able to buy items at wholesale at the same price as a place like Walmart unless they are willing to make a huge investment, i.e. take a huge risk. Not to mention Walmart's infrastructure and distribution all contribute to their low prices and high profits. In order to offer same or better prices on the same items as Walmart, plus fund your prize matrix, you'd have to cut some serious corners, which would probably amount to a money loosing situation.