Illegal Lottery

[MatrixWatch]

I want to inform the matrix community about the main issue that I am raising in the lawsuit. I have not heard a solid answer to this point yet. Now, I have heard many answers, but they end up getting hung up by tangents and do not relate directly to what I am stating. The fact is that California has a law against illegal lotteries. Whether or not you think that is stupid does not concern me. What does concern me is that there are no matrix sites restructuring themselves to avoid illegal lottery charges in the future.

If you are offering a gift program, be it a prize drawing, matrix list, etc., you must allow people the opportunity to join the list without having to pay anything. That means that if you are running a 25-person list matrix for a Play Station 2, you need to offer people a spot on that list without requiring them to purchase anything. However, the matrix sites continue to violate this law. They are offering new products to buy, shorter cycle lists, and re-vamping their Terms of Service, yet after all of this they do not respond to the issue in the lawsuit. Why? Because the matrix sites cannot be operated legally and still make money. People would request free entries and not buy anything. The matrix-site owners have a choice to make here, and even though they think the lawsuit seems nonsensical, it drives at the very heart of how the sites operate.

[uwantme]

Nice post however I addressed this to you under my topic answer this one to which you didnt reply to my argument so I will post it here:

I said:

have thought of a real life example to support what Im saying.

I live on the east coast and we have Subways. You know a restaruant. When you buy a sub from them they will give you a subway card. Then every time you buy a 12" sub you get a sticker for your card. when you get 8 stickers on your card you get a free sub.

So in order to get your free gift(i.e. the sub) you must buy a sub and then continue to buy subs until the required sales are met.

This is the same scenerio played out by a nation wide franchise. If you dont buy enough subs you dont get the free sub. So does that mean Subway has been running an illegal lottery for years, all across the nation?


Watchdog said:
It is not the same thing because Subway is not entering the customer's name into a lottery. Subway it just offering a "baker's dozen" deal on their sandwiches. In the MSNBC article, my attorney talks about the same situation.

"Let’s say it’s a haircut place," said Wilens. "If you get 10 haircuts, the 10th is free. There’s nothing illegal about that. But suppose in addition, we take everybody’s (name), throw it into a bin, and a person wins a trip to Hawaii. That’s illegal. Offering a chance to win a prize even though you have provided a service is a lottery” under California state law."


I said:
What you just said makes no sense watchdog.

So your saying that all matrices site owners have to do is say after you buy your item we will add your name to the list only if you want us to and then its not illegal? Because we are not just throwing names into a bin anymore, only the ones who want to participate- so the ones who are getting the haircuts, subs etc. Because the same basis is still there. To get a free haircut ten have to be bought first. So the sales have to be met to get that haircut just like the sales have to be met on a matrix site.

So yeah, basically if owners just ask first "hey do you want your name added to the list" then add it if they want, dont add it if they dont want, then everythings okay?

Watchdog said:
Matrix sites are designed to make money. If you run them legally, no money can possibly be made. Yes, they resemble a pyramid or ponzi, but the illegal lottery aspect is a more straightforward and conclusive case. It doesn't matter if it is the customer's choice or not to enter the matrix. The issue is whether or not the customer had to buy something in order to enter the matrix list. If an e-book or a t-shirt had to be purchased so that the person's name could be put on a list, then the site runs the risk of violating state laws concerning illegal lotteries.

I said:

Sorry watchdog but your still not making sense and it doesnt explain why its okay then to buy 10 haircuts to get one free because they are still having to buy something. Lots of somethings in fact, but not to buy another tangilble item and after the required sales are met to get one free.

Also ALL businesses are designed to make money. Hence why its called business. What you saying is that is a business is designed to make money they must be illegal? Oh no, watch out wal-mart, and ebay!!!


To which no more replies where given. Here is just an add on from the same topic which further supports my point:

Technically having additional people to help you reach the required sales would be a bonus but in the same scenerio you could keep buying the tangible products yourself until you bought enough to cycle yourself. I.E. met the required sales. There is no rule in matrix systems that says you cant buy as many as you want until you recieve your free gift. So the time you get your free gift is still dependent upon you. Remember this site isnt offering e-books but actual products like jewelry, t-shirts, etc. so you have many options to choose from and they are things people may want many of, just like subs and haircuts. Its all about required sales regardless of whether someone is helping you reach the required sales or if you have to make them all on your own.

[MatrixWatch]

You misunderstood the MSNBC quote that I brought up. There is nothing wrong with offering something free after 10 haircuts, or 10 subs. The barbershop was offering a free haircut.. No harm done. However, if the barbershop then offered the opportunity to enter a prize drawing then that would be illegal. It is illegal in California and other states because it sets up an "Unfair Business Practice". In another thread you brought up WalMart, Target, and other stores who sell t-shirts, just like you would like to on your website. Now, lets say WalMart sold the same t-shirt that you did. The only difference between you and WalMart is that you are offering YOUR customers the opportunity to enter a prize matrix to get expensive items for free.. WalMart isn't. This violates business competition laws because if it were not illegal, then stores would begin competing against each other on this issue of prizes, and not products. The wealthier companies would have more advantages in offering incentive programs than the smaller companies did. It would lead to smaller businesses having a more difficult time than they already do. Thus, unfair-business codes are created by the government and one of those codes is "illegal lotteries". To even out the playing field the law allows special incentive programs, but the company must offer a customer the opportunity to take advantage of the incentive program without requiring them to purchase anything. Matrix sites do not offer an entry unless you purchase their ebooks, t-shirts, kitchen knives, etc. Therefore, I filed the lawsuit against EzExpo, the largest such site, for running an illegal lottery. I also sued the pay companies who aided and facilitated EzExpo in running this alleged illegal lottery. Other people did the same thing against the matrix sites they were involved with. Then, I expaned the lawsuit against one of the pay companies, Ginix, for their involvement with over 30 other matrix sites. Ginix then froze almost all their matrix-site accounts. Earlier this week I added PayPal to my lawsuit.

I don't want to argue with you all day long. I only want you to know what is going on. You may continue to operate and function as you have, but you need to know that I will beat this drum until every matrix site is closed and no pay company would be willing to deal with a matrix site. Why do I do this? Because I believe that all those people who paid into a matrix site deserve their money back. The site owners are welcome to follow the example of eBanana, who closed down and are working with their customers, or EzExpo, who continues to run from the consequences that this lawsuit may bring.

[uwantme]

To reply

"The barbershop was offering a free haircut.. No harm done. However, if the barbershop then offered the opportunity to enter a prize drawing then that would be illegal."

Matrix sites are not offering opportunities to be entered into a prize drawing. there is no drawing of names. Just like with the buy 10 haircuts get one free matrix sites are awarding prizes based on sales. Not drawings.

"The only difference between you and WalMart is that you are offering YOUR customers the opportunity to enter a prize matrix to get expensive items for free.. WalMart isn't. This violates business competition laws because if it were not illegal, then stores would begin competing against each other on this issue of prizes, and not products. To even out the playing field the law allows special incentive programs, but the company must offer a customer the opportunity to take advantage of the incentive program without requiring them to purchase anything."

As another member stated all kinds of fast food restaraunts like McDonalds, Burger King etc, offer incentives for free gifts. Like the Monopoly game Mcdonalds offers. You MUST BUY a Medium drink or Medium free or larger to get a game piece. They do not give out free game pieces. The game pieces allow you to win everything from a free cookie to a free car. If this kind of thing is illegal then all these major companies could be offering them every year.

"I don't want to argue with you all day long. I only want you to know what is going on. You may continue to operate and function as you have, but you need to know that I will beat this drum until every matrix site is closed and no pay company would be willing to deal with a matrix site. Why do I do this? Because I believe that all those people who paid into a matrix site deserve their money back."

I am not arguing with you. I am providing valid facts to show your claims are not accurate. Which you are not prooving otherwise very well. You beat your drum and I will beat mine. As long a sI keep disproving your claims so no matrix site will have to close up and pay companies can support them. What you believe may not be the right thing. Thats not for you to decide.

[MatrixWatch]

While matrix sites do not offer a prize drawing they offer the incentive of the matrix. Cycling off on a matrix list is left up to chance to decide. If you said that you offer a person their award WHEN they cycle, you would be presupposing that they will cycle, and that would be fraud if they didn't. Matrix sites are pretty good at avoiding that wording. Instead, they say, "You will receive your free item IF you cycle", or others say, "If enough customers join the lists, you will receive your prize." Whether or not the customer receives the prize depends on the unpredictable factor of future sign ups. Therefore, the matrix sites are offering a contest of chance, and they are now running the risk of being declared an illegal lottery by the courts since they require a customer to buy into the program. Read through this article by an attorney at Frost, Brown, and Todd. It is a good primer on lotteries and sweepstakes.

http://www.frostbrowntodd.com/practice_areas/pdfs/dont_take_a_chance_when_running_sweepstakes.pdf

[tcb1969a]

Interesting argument Watch Dog, though I still have not read what constitutes and illegal lottery other than certain states say it is wrong for it promotes unfair business practices. Further I fail to see where illegal lottery would be tied into a Matrix system.

I admit in this day and age, most anyone can when a lawsuit, so you more than likely might win in the state of California. But does that mean Matrix sites are against the law in other states. I think not. Plus one more thing there is such a thing as an appeal for which the whole concept of the legality of Matrix sites could be put on hold for years until all of the appeals are exhausted. So this will not be a quick defeat of the Matrix community as you seem to think it is.

[uwantme]

So once again your basically saying that of a matrix site says:

If you said that you offer a person their award WHEN they cycle, instead of You will receive your free item IF you cycle

Then its not an illegal lottery and the only charge they could face is fraud if you dont cycle?

You also seem to forget that it IS NOT based on sign ups but on sales. So what if the site continues to make sales even without a free incentive being offered? So people are still cycling. and with a cut off on the list, the list can and will empty.

Then you say"Therefore, the matrix sites are offering a contest of chance, and they are now running the risk of being declared an illegal lottery by the courts since they require a customer to buy into the program."

But you never answered my statement about:

As another member stated all kinds of fast food restaraunts like McDonalds, Burger King etc, offer incentives for free gifts. Like the Monopoly game Mcdonalds offers. You MUST BUY a Medium drink or Medium free or larger to get a game piece. They do not give out free game pieces. The game pieces allow you to win everything from a free cookie to a free car. Or collecting all of a certain game piece which you can only do by buying them. If this kind of thing is illegal then all these major companies could be offering them every year.


Whats the difference?

[MatrixWatch]

There is a fine line between a lottery and a sweepstakes. I included the above link to a great article on the distinction. The McDonald's Monopoly game is listed as a sweepstakes, not a lotter. The same goes for the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes. So, what is the difference? Well, a few things, but the major factor is what we call "AMOE" which means Alternate Method of Entry. If you read the fine print on the McDonalds Monopoly Sweepstakes rules, you will see that if you mail in a self-addressed and stamped envelope with you can order a Monopoly piece for free. Publisher's Clearing House must offer the same AMOE, and the matrix sites need to offer one as well if they plan to steer clear of the illegal lottery issue. The problem is that they can't do this and still make money, since they base the momentum of their site on the matrix lists.

[tcb1969a]

Watch Dog, I have on several instances when McDonalds had the Monopoly game going, sent in a envelope requesting a free game piece, and as of yet I have never received one. Hmm....I guess I could sue them to for operating an illegal sweepstakes couldn't I?

[MatrixWatch]

I don't know what you could sue them over. I am not involved in a lawsuit against McDonalds. The issue here is that the matrix sites are not even offering the free entry. This is what the site owners cannot get around.

[uwantme]

So then once again site owners could pick some obscure page of their site and add in really fine print that if they mail them they can get a free entry into the system and its all okay....mmmm thats easy. You could put that fine print anywhere, and as long as its on your site thats all that matters.

I have never seen that fine print on any of the monopoly pieces i got, so they must hide it pretty well.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
I don't know what you could sue them over. I am not involved in a lawsuit against McDonalds. The issue here is that the matrix sites are not even offering the free entry. This is what the site owners cannot get around.

Sorry Watch Dog I was being sarcastic. I would never sue anyone, because of my taking a chance on something.....Hmm....seem familiar......

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by uwantme
So then once again site owners could pick some obscure page of their site and add in really fine print that if they mail them they can get a free entry into the system and its all okay....mmmm thats easy. You could put that fine print anywhere, and as long as its on your site thats all that matters.

I have never seen that fine print on any of the monopoly pieces i got, so they must hide it pretty well.

Actually what Watch Dog is referring to is actually found on the back of the Monopoly board in small print, which no one reads but somehow is deamed legal. Funny how that works....

[uwantme]

Well then I just hit pay dirt for all matrix site owners!!!

You can put on your site in some small obscure place in small fine print that if they email you, you will send them an address where they can send a postal letter to you requesting a free entry on the site.

or you can put on your site that if they send you a self addressed envelop you will send them a copy of your official rules and TOS and on that information you can add that if they mail you a request you will give them a free entry. Thats how you get the monoply board. You have to go into the store and actually request one right?

Then all is right with the world.... and matrices would not be illegal lotteries... "as the barney song runs annoyingly in my mind"

[tcb1969a]

Yes....true....and I really hate the Barney song.....It's very annoying.....

[MatrixWatch]

You must remember Publisher's Clearing House though. When they send you their sweepstakes entry the free entry option is CLEARLY stated in BIG letters. The reason for this is because they were sued for not making their statement clear enough. If you hide this information in small print then you will still be in trouble. Also, if one person finds out about the free entry then it will spread on the forums like wildfire. Therefore, this point about the AMOE rule is not pay-dirt for the matrix sites. The point here is to stop ripping people off with get-rich-quick schemes. Nevertheless, some people who have the predisposition to operate fly-by-night, P.O. Box-based scam websites will continue to find ways to operate according to the dictates of their greedy hearts.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
You must remember Publisher's Clearing House though. When they send you their sweepstakes entry the free entry option is CLEARLY stated in BIG letters. The reason for this is because they were sued for not making their statement clear enough. If you hide this information in small print then you will still be in trouble. Also, if one person finds out about the free entry then it will spread on the forums like wildfire. Therefore, this point about the AMOE rule is not pay-dirt for the matrix sites. The point here is to stop ripping people off with get-rich-quick schemes. Nevertheless, some people who have the predisposition to operate fly-by-night, P.O. Box-based scam websites will continue to find ways to operate according to the dictates of their greedy hearts.

That is lovely....I just love the words in this. That is a work of art.

Sarcasmn aside, didn't you Watch Dog buy in to one of these get-rich-quick schemes....hmmm.....

By the way, I don't have a P.O. Box.......

[Arzel]

Quote from uwantme

As another member stated all kinds of fast food restaraunts like McDonalds, Burger King etc, offer incentives for free gifts. Like the Monopoly game Mcdonalds offers. You MUST BUY a Medium drink or Medium free or larger to get a game piece. They do not give out free game pieces. The game pieces allow you to win everything from a free cookie to a free car. If this kind of thing is illegal then all these major companies could be offering them every year.


That is not true. You can mail McDonald's for a free game piece.

Let us end this aspect of the discussion once and for all.


Any game which opperates on the aspect of Chance cannot require purchase to participate, with two exceptions.

Gambling is actually defined as a game of skill, and not covered under these rules.

State lotteries and charitble games are games of chance regulated and run by the states and not covered under these rules. You must be licenced to run the game.

[tcb1969a]

And a Matrix site is neither Gambling or a Lottery.

It is called a Matrix.....

[hurley9192]

correct...it is a ponzi scheme where the early investors get paid through the later investors...

[tcb1969a]

If that was true then the sites would be called Ponzi this or Ponzi that.....hmmmm

But instead they are Matrix this and Matrix that.....

Why....?

Because they are different................

[hurley9192]

I disagree...you call them matrix sites because it's a popular name right now with the movies out.

Think about what a matrix is...it definitely is not a long list of people waiting for others to sign up so that they can get something for a 10th of the real price.

I doubt that a person who owns one of these sites is really going to call it a "Long list for cheap things" site. Matrix is just a catchy name for this. It has nothing to do with being based on an actual matrix.

[hurley9192]

Here is webster's definition of a matrix...

a rectangular array of mathematical elements (as the coefficients of simultaneous linear equations) that can be combined to form sums and products with similar arrays having an appropriate number of rows and columns b : something resembling a mathematical matrix especially in rectangular arrangement of elements into rows and columns c : an array of circuit elements (as diodes and transistors) for performing a specific function

there is nothing even related to this with regards to how these sites are being run...

[hurley9192]

and their defintion of a ponzi scheme...

Main Entry: Pon·zi scheme
Pronunciation: 'pän-zE-
Function: noun
Etymology: Charles A. Ponzi died 1949 American (Italian-born) swindler
Date: 1973
: an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

nuff said on that...

[uwantme]

As I stated before then site owners could do this:

or you can put on your site that if they send you a self addressed envelop you will send them a copy of your official rules and TOS and on that information you can add that if they mail you a request you will give them a free entry. Thats how you get the monoply board. You have to go into the store and actually request one right?


Then all you have to do is but it in some obscure place on the booklet you send to them. more than likely no one is even going to ask for you and if the do they will probably never read the whole thing.

Which means that no, hardly anyone would ever get the address to send you a request for a free entry, if anyone at all just like with monopoly board.

Then according to you guys thats all it takes to make them legal... LOL what a joke this all is...

By the way when is your lawsuit actually going to court. I am so sick of hearing talk I want to know when its going to happen.

[hurley9192]

Incorrect, that wouldn't make it legal just because you gave away a free entry.

The thing with the monopoly game is that the last person that gets a game piece has as much of a chance of winning as the first. Unlike a matrix site, where only the first 5% or whatever win anything.

Do you read what you write, because it has typos and does not read very well.

[tcb1969a]

And Hurley, that is why Matrix sites are different than anything else. That is why they are not a illegal lottery, ponzi, pyramid, or anything else of that nature.

Oh, and thanks for the deffinition of Ponzi.....Though I already knew it........

[poorme]

Nevertheless, some people who have the predisposition to operate fly-by-night, P.O. Box-based scam websites will continue to find ways to operate according to the dictates of their greedy hearts.

I like this one.


www.ecashmatrix.com
The site disappeared. There are many lists without winners

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by poorme
Nevertheless, some people who have the predisposition to operate fly-by-night, P.O. Box-based scam websites will continue to find ways to operate according to the dictates of their greedy hearts.

I like this one.


www.ecashmatrix.com
The site disappeared. There are many lists without winners

Yes cute little wording...though not true in all cases....I have no P.O. Box......

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hurley9192
Incorrect, that wouldn't make it legal just because you gave away a free entry.

The thing with the monopoly game is that the last person that gets a game piece has as much of a chance of winning as the first. Unlike a matrix site, where only the first 5% or whatever win anything.

Do you read what you write, because it has typos and does not read very well.

Do you feel you cant find anything else to attack me on so you must make yourself feel better by belittling my wrinting? LOL...
Personally I dont care how my wrinting looks to you on this board. Im not trying to impress anyone here thats for sure.. So i mispelled a few words or had bad grammer OH NO, what a tragidy.

And for your other comments if the list has a limit on it like I have mentioned before then the last person in line has the same chance of getting off as anyone else. Especially when the list is moved by purchases of actually tangible goods which I have also mentioned before. Its the same thing as buy 12 subs get one free or the buy 10 haircuts get one free. The last person on the cutoff just has to make as many sales as it requires him to get his free item. Whether he makes them on his own or others help him.

[tcb1969a]

Actually, uwantme, your idea does sound promising, though the Watch Dog crew will not think so.......that is just the nature of the beast....

[hurley9192]

I wasn't attacking your writing, it is just difficult to understand some posts when it is riddled with typos and bad grammer.

Your sub example is totally off base from this because people are paying full price 12 times and then get one free. Your matrix site would be that if you bought 10 plasma tv's for $4000 each, then you would get one free.

Instead, you pay in only $150 and get one and only after the long list of others ahead of you get one.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hurley9192
I wasn't attacking your writing, it is just difficult to understand some posts when it is riddled with typos and bad grammer.

Your sub example is totally off base from this because people are paying full price 12 times and then get one free. Your matrix site would be that if you bought 10 plasma tv's for $4000 each, then you would get one free.

Instead, you pay in only $150 and get one and only after the long list of others ahead of you get one.

There is no law or rule that says the free item has to be same as what your buying.. Subway could say buy twelve subs and get a free cookie. Its the same thing. I have also mentioned before there is no rule or law in matrices that says you cant buy more than one. If you are selling tangible goods on your matrix site then I would even assume there are different ones your customer could choose form and different colors so it is very plausible they would even want to buy more from you. Also as I have said before it also becomes the responsibility of the site owner to post the lists where all potential customers can see it so they know what sales have to be met before they get their free gift. After that its their choice to decide whether its worth going after the free gift either by making all the purchases they need themselves or just letting others do it for them. Just like in the sub case you dont have to collect the stamps to get the free subs. You can just go in whenever you want buy your sub and leave. Subway doenst say hey you have to fill out this card. But if you want your free sub you have too. Also as I have mention before if you have a cut off piont on your list like after 50 people then the list doesnt grow long and it is very possible to continue to cycle all of the names left on the list through continued sales of your tangible goods minus the free gift of course.

[hurley9192]

yeah, but the way a matrix works is that you pay $150 for a $4000 tv...

subway, you pay $60 and get a free $5 sub. It would be like 20 people paying $0.25 and the first in line getting a free sub the way a matrix works.

So, your example is horrible. If you bought 12 $4000 tv's and got one free, that's how subway works.

[uwantme]

You are trying to misconstrue the example. The example with subway is that it is based on sales. You get your free subs only after a requirement of sales are met. Thats the same way a matrix works. You are not paying $150 for a plasma tv you are paying for an tangilible item that you would buy for that price normally anyway. At least you would in the site im talking about.

So once again its back to sales. Its when you or if you let others make the sales for you by buying a tangible item worth the cost your paying for it. It has nothing to do with how much the plasma tv cost or how much the free gift is your giving away thats irrelevant. Its the same system as buy 12 get one free. No matter wgat the free item is or worth.

[MysticX23]

so what you guys are saying is that if i sell ebooks alone, its ok...

...BUT if i just want to, because i feel like it or have a good heart or whatever, i want to put the buyers on a matrix list to get an item for FREE if they want to..that is illegal? giving out things for free to customers?

[MysticX23]

so nobody is allowed to give away anything free? its free for godsakes..you don't have to take a slot if you don't want it, but its free..and if people want free stuff, i don't see y they can't have it.

[MaxPower]

MysticX23...
The point is that people would not pay you $25 for e-books... let alone $150. It is the matrix idea that they are buying. Therefore, the only true motivation for buying the e-book is to get onto the matrix. As said by others... the e-book is a "token" product.:cool:

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by MaxPower
The point is that people would not pay you $25 for e-books... let alone $150. It is the matrix idea that they are buying. Therefore, the only true motivation for buying the e-book is to get onto the matrix. As said by others... the e-book is a "token" product.:cool:

true true, i agree to that, but you can't say that matrix sites are illegal cuz of their "motivation" can u? even tho i agree that its outrageous to buy ebooks for that much...its is technically legal isn't it? lots of us have "true underlying motivations" like "making money", wanting to go to get a chick to go out with you, etc...but it don't make it illegal does it?....if i want to sell an ebook on ebay and i list it for $150, its totally legal even tho my motives are just making money. i dunno..its just what i'm thinking

[poorme]

if i want to sell an ebook on ebay and i list it for $150, its totally legal even tho my motives are just making money. i dunno..its just what i'm thinking


For a trustworhty seller who abide by the legal and moral rule, they won't do such a thing.

[spydrman]

MysticX23:

I find this kind of funny, where matrix sites claim they are selling ebooks. What do you see on their "products" page, a PS2, Plasma TV, cash, etc. Matrix sites do a lot of misleading, you don't see a picture of the ebooks, do you? That's where I have a big problem with matrix sites. Even auction sellers on ebay, they promote this stuff by listing titles of the free gifts, and buyers think they are buying these items and have no clue. That aspect of the matrix concept is wrong. Free gift or not, a lot of people are being misled.

[MysticX23]

spydrman:

i totally agree that you are correct..i could be misleading but:

1)there are faq's
2)marketing always uses misleading tactics
3)i'm not sure to what extent you can mislead or if its illegal..so yea..an example would be cereal companies do a different type of misleading..on the box they put all these characters to attract kids, not to mention that the cereal is blown up like 20 times the real size...is that misleading? i think so...yes they put "not actual size"...but that is in small print

but thats my 2cents.

[tcb1969a]

Yes a lot of advertisers mislead there customer, whether that would be in print, TV, or Radio.

They put small lettering in that most people do not read, but they have to so that it is legal.

The reason why I mention this is that what these lawsuits could end up doing, is having Matrix sites put in small lettered wording so that it would be legal, that is if the courts do anything about it. Since most sites put it the wording that makes it legal in normal sized lettering. Being up front with there customers. But of course it matters not, since the whole synopsis here on this forum is that no one reads the Faqs and TOS. Why is that?

Well, I'll give you a theory. They read it. But figure if they can play dumb and say they didn't know cause they didn't read the Faq's and TOS, that they can get there money back. So in essence they want to try out the Matrix idea and if it doesn't work for them in a certain amount of time, then they pull their "I didn't understand" routine, expecting a refund. And then they call the Matrix sites scam artists. Interesting.....

Of course there are some legit people out there that really didn't understand, but that is such a small amount of the customers that do know what they are getting into. In fact the majority that do know what they are getting into, do not even like this site. Since this site will eventually cost them money.

Oh, and by the way, I realize that some of the hounds (no pun intended), will jump on the fact that I assumed in my theory, seeing how I say that I don't assume. Well, my friends, a theory is not an assumption, though it is built on it slightly.....

[uwantme]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MaxPower
MysticX23...
The point is that people would not pay you $25 for e-books... let alone $150. It is the matrix idea that they are buying. Therefore, the only true motivation for buying the e-book is to get onto the matrix. As said by others... the e-book is a "token" product.:cool: [/QUOTE

So as I stated many times before what happens to your arguement when a site starts to sell real tangible products people normaaly buy everday like clothes or jewelry and they are selling them for the same price or less than you pay in stores. Then technically there is no "token" product. Because you are buying a real produt you would normally buy for the same price or less anyway and still getting a free gift.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by poorme
if i want to sell an ebook on ebay and i list it for $150, its totally legal even tho my motives are just making money. i dunno..its just what i'm thinking


For a trustworhty seller who abide by the legal and moral rule, they won't do such a thing.

There is nothing illegal about this... Morally wrong thats between you and the powers above.

However you can sell any product for any amount you want even without a free gift.. Its up to the customer to decide if that product is worth that much to them.

[tcb1969a]

I agree you can sell a product for as much as you want....

[spydrman]

In relationship to your cereal misleading. A better comparison to the matrix idea would be this: You walk into the grocery store and see a display of PS2's, XBOX, Plasma TV's, etc. They show these as the products they are selling. Then they hand you a plain box of cereal and tell you to buy this for a low price of $150 - and you will be entered into a matrix with a length of 50 to win your 50 inch plasma tv. LOL - My point in all this, matrix sites could still be considered illegal, if governments decide to jump in and do somethin about it. Matrix sites do a lot more misleading than a company selling cereal and simply blowing up the size or whatever. Misleading consumers is not good, if they feel that they've been taken... they will tell their friends and family about it and those people will never buy from you as a result. Just look at walmart, they put their customers first and they are the biggest and most respected retail store across the country. Why is this? If a consumer has a problem with the product, walmart will replace it for you. They even have a greeter at the door to welcome you inside. That's what good business is all about. Keeping the customer happy and wanting to come back, and being your biggest advertisor in telling their friends and family about what a great place "walmart" really is, or any other business for that matter.

[tcb1969a]

Well....with me at least, Wal-mart is the worst example you could use. Wal-mart is far from being commited to customer service. Perhaps they were before they got to big. But now, even though they might not have the selection Wal-Mart does, I would rather shop at K-mart. I am greated with a smile and get a genuine feeling that those employees at K-mart really want to help you and really like there jobs. You walk into Wal-mart, and your depressed when you walk out...

Also, one more point to make, you can't say all Matrix sites are misleading, cause they aren't......

[uwantme]

I have to agree our local walmart is horrible. Half the time no one is at the door to greet you and the person that is there the other half of the time just looks at you hateful and shoves your cart at you. Theres never anywhere to park, the store is always clustered and dirty. You can never never find a sales associate to help you and you are guarenteed a 20 minute wai tin the check out line even the 20 items or less lines. I ONLY go to walmart because they are cheap. But I hate going there and everyone around here I know hates it too.

[tcb1969a]

The only reason Wal-Mart survives is because it is a one stop place to get things. They have the merchandise people want at great prices. Plus Americans such as myself, like convenience. So with the added Food aspect, you no longer have to go to more than one place when you go shopping for things. Wal-mart is generally the place to go. Of course when I was a kid the place to go was the Mall, but no more now a days, the place to go to hang out and shop is Wal-Mart.

I don't know how many times I have to pick a different route thru the store because people are just chatting up a storm with friends they have met while shopping there. It is a meeting place and a shopping place all wrapped up in one.

Of course, you never get good customer service, but it matters not for they have convenience and that's all this country seems to care about any more. Sam Walton is probably turning over in his grave as I type this, knowing fully well that he never wanted Wal-mart to get away from the customer aspect.....

[poorme]

The level of mmpm (misleading market plan of the matrix site) is unacceptable.

[uwantme]

tell me once again poorme how its misleading so I can prove otherwise......

[tcb1969a]

Yes, I hear misleading way to much here. How is a Matrix site misleading there customers?

[MysticX23]

well..its the same case with the cereal...might not be misleading, but it advertises not EXACTLY what its selling.

cereals advertise BIG apple jacks but in the box are small ones, not only that, many advertise little toys that are free in box, but they are selling cereal

matrix sites advertise the "toys" that are the free products but are selling ebooks.

hopefully thats some comparision..

..as you guys can tell from all my post, i'm mixed on whether matrix sites are good or bad...

[tcb1969a]

I will admit some Matrix sites advertise there products incorrectly, but most of us honest matrix owners, do not mislead anyone....

[MysticX23]

tcb, what is ur matrix site anyways? if you don't want to disclose it to me, can u email it me? i assure you that i'm not one of watchdog's gang.

[tcb1969a]

I have 3 sites actually.....though I won't disclose it to anyone...on this site.

Don't take it personally though.....

[MysticX23]

np,none taken

[peterdragin]

Well here we go again, most I say Most not All use the magical 5 person matrix as an example, when they haven't a 5 person matrix on their site. So 5 x 3 = 15 people don't think that is to bad, they forget to add up the numbers for which matrix they are signing up for, they still have that 5 person example in their minds, even tho they just signed up for a 20 cycle matrix.


Site owners should have like a information note on each position people sign up for, like you are number 34 on this 15 cycle matrix and there will have to be 510 more people to sign up before you will recive your "gift". Think many people would sign up if the numbers were listed like this ?

Just think if Ezexpo had to do this, you are number 1,351 on this 25 cycle matrix and there has to be 33,775 people sign up before you recive your free "gift"


Maybe that's what the fed's would do if they ever get involved in this matrix thing.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Well here we go again, most I say Most not All use the magical 5 person matrix as an example, when they haven't a 5 person matrix on their site. So 5 x 3 = 15 people don't think that is to bad, they forget to add up the numbers for which matrix they are signing up for, they still have that 5 person example in their minds, even tho they just signed up for a 20 cycle matrix.


Site owners should have like a information note on each position people sign up for, like you are number 34 on this 15 cycle matrix and there will have to be 510 more people to sign up before you will recive your "gift". Think many people would sign up if the numbers were listed like this ?

Just think if Ezexpo had to do this, you are number 1,351 on this 25 cycle matrix and there has to be 33,775 people sign up before you recive your free "gift"


Maybe that's what the fed's would do if they ever get involved in this matrix thing.


Ok, most sites use the 5 person matrix example, cause it takes less space on there Faq's page or wherever to show the example in detail....Let's try not to be so nitpicky......

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Well here we go again, most I say Most not All use the magical 5 person matrix as an example, when they haven't a 5 person matrix on their site. So 5 x 3 = 15 people don't think that is to bad, they forget to add up the numbers for which matrix they are signing up for, they still have that 5 person example in their minds, even tho they just signed up for a 20 cycle matrix.


Site owners should have like a information note on each position people sign up for, like you are number 34 on this 15 cycle matrix and there will have to be 510 more people to sign up before you will recive your "gift". Think many people would sign up if the numbers were listed like this ?

Just think if Ezexpo had to do this, you are number 1,351 on this 25 cycle matrix and there has to be 33,775 people sign up before you recive your free "gift"


Maybe that's what the fed's would do if they ever get involved in this matrix thing.


yea, but that would be bad marketing...same thing goes for cell phones..those companies dont' put "using cell phones may or maynot increase brain cancer" or something like that...why? cuz thats BUSINESS and if you want to sell, you don't put things like that. not to mention, it should be up to the customers to figure out how many more people are needed.

[peterdragin]

Yes true, but it would be "Honest"

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by peterdragin
Yes true, but it would be "Honest"

Honest?

I'm honest.....yet I get dogged everyday on here.....no pun intended.......

[matrixfriendly]

Even looking at the 5 person matrix example that most sites use the customer should still be able to see the big picture. If you are capbable of understanding the 5 person matrix example, then you are capable of seeing the amount of people it would take to cycle above that. Estimating a 20 cycle is no harder than estimating a 5 cycle once it is explained. Almost all sites put some kind of visual example up for customers. I do think it is the problem that the customer did not know as much as it is taking longer than I thought so I want to cry SCAM! It is way to easy to do.

[Arzel]

tcb,

Your Million Dollar site lists only the "Gifts" on the site's main page. It does not even list the e-books until you click the "Buy" button, and even then you give only a very vague description of the e-book. And what is with the value discrepency between the various ebooks? What would make me believe that ebook #1 is worth $5 and #4 worth $500

And ebook's 5 through 8 do not even state what the ebook is for. Furthermore I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that you have an ebook worth $250,000. This site has scam written all over it, plus 5 through 8 is clearly ponzi.

Your matrix one site is a little better. The e-books even look like books, but there is still not much of a description. Whenever I buy a book, I like to be able to read a paragraph or two to see what it is about. Your testimonial page shows people happy with their gift, but not one single "Happy with my ebook!"

Your abstract wall-paper site is the most legit appearing of the lot, but you make this statement in your FAQ. Actually it is in all of your FAQs.


10. No you will not lose your money. As the list gets longer, it will take you longer to cycle but you will eventually cycle. Plus I plan on introducing ways to get people to cycle faster, so keep checking the site updates to see those changes implemented.

What are you going to do when some of those people never cycle? Pretty misleading FAQ from someone who said

Just out of curiosity Hurley, who in the world said everyone can cycle on a Matrix.......


Guess you might have to retract your earlier statement about everyone cycling.

[tcb1969a]

Million Dollar Matrix is based on climbing a ladder, plus the ebooks are pretty self evident what they are about....

As well with Matrix--One, the ebooks are there and their is no need for description cause the title of the ebooks are descriptive enough.

As far as Abstract, hmm, well nothing still misleading, they will eventually cycle....and if I was to tell you how on that one, then I would be giving away my secrets, and that wouldn't be very smart of me business wise, now would it?

Plus you seem to forget the whole purpose of a Matrix site anyways, it is to get people to advertise for you by offering a incentive hence the free gifts that a site gives away.....

[Arzel]

All of your sites say that you will eventually cycle, not just the abstract wallpaper site.

What are you talking about climbing a ladder? Sounds like climbing the pryamid.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
All of your sites say that you will eventually cycle, not just the abstract wallpaper site.

What are you talking about climbing a ladder? Sounds like climbing the pryamid.

As far as all the sites saying you will cycle, they will as long as new customers keep buying in.

As far as Million Dollar Matrix goes, it's premise is that you can buy a ebook for $5, then when you cycle at $25 you can get the cash or you can be put into the $100 award list for that purchase price, and so on and so on....Oh....why do I bother....Read the site it tells just what I just said....

[Arzel]

I have known about your sites for quite some time now, but have been reluctant to bring them up personally, but you are making quite a few statements that fly in the face of your matrix sites, the million dollar one specifically.

on your million dollar site you say the following "about us"

I am a independent owner of this site, who is looking to help people with an investment opportunity like no other. I am dedicated to each customer, and will work hard at promoting this site, so each customer can cycle as many times as possible. This site is pretty straight forward, and there are a few payment options available to get on the lists. I hope that this Matrix site becomes the best out there with a loyal customer base. Without you the customer this site would not be possible. So let's work together on promoting this site. Word of mouth is the best promotion tool out there. If you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me at the email below. Take care and remember to.....

PROMOTE PROMOTE PROMOTE

Doesn't sound like you are trying to help people get the best ebook's in the world, sounds more like an investment site, or should I say ponzi site?

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
I have known about your sites for quite some time now, but have been reluctant to bring them up personally, but you are making quite a few statements that fly in the face of your matrix sites, the million dollar one specifically.

on your million dollar site you say the following "about us"



Doesn't sound like you are trying to help people get the best ebook's in the world, sounds more like an investment site, or should I say ponzi site?

Hmm...well it is an investement site where you can get great ebooks too....

And I am there to help people for which I have. Of course I guess now you all are going to target me....hmmm...

Oh by the way, interesting thing to note, if your remember or not, I mentioned on this site that there was a customer that didn't understand how the process worked and even though I say no refunds I gave her a refund but still kept the list like it was and purchased the spot so that no one would lose their cycle spot...Well this is the site I am talking about. You will notice it on one of my lists that says MDM....I guess that was dishonest of me, huh?

[Arzel]

Oh yeah, that was really nice of you. $25 whole dollars.

Let me ask you, what exactly do you have for sale that is worth $250,000? Original works from Shakespeare?

[Arzel]

I am not going to target you.

Actually I would like to see someone cycle the 1,000,000. You would be audited very quickly after that, as would the person winning. I would love to hear the explanation for such a large cash transaction to an IRS auditor. But that will probably never happen since the total signup would have to be over a million people (I doubt anyone is going to jump right into those upper lists.)

[MysticX23]

lol..yea..that site should just close down cuz 1 million people? yea right..i'd prolly be dead by the time that happens.

[tcb1969a]

Yes, well, it seems to be the most popular of the 3 sites....believe it or not.........

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by watchdog
[B]To even out the playing field the law allows special incentive programs, but the company must offer a customer the opportunity to take advantage of the incentive program without requiring them to purchase anything. Matrix sites do not offer an entry unless you purchase their ebooks, t-shirts, kitchen knives, etc. Therefore, I filed the lawsuit against EzExpo, the largest such site, for running an illegal lottery. I also sued the pay companies who aided and facilitated EzExpo in running this alleged illegal lottery.

Watchdog said:
It is not the same thing because Subway is not entering the customer's name into a lottery. Subway it just offering a "baker's dozen" deal on their sandwiches. In the MSNBC article, my attorney talks about the same situation.

"Let’s say it’s a haircut place," said Wilens. "If you get 10 haircuts, the 10th is free. There’s nothing illegal about that. But suppose in addition, we take everybody’s (name), throw it into a bin, and a person wins a trip to Hawaii. That’s illegal. Offering a chance to win a prize even though you have provided a service is a lottery” under California state law."


Ok I have seen you do the haircut comparison many times now. This would seem to contradict what you stated above. "To even out the playing field the law allows special incentive programs, but the company must offer a customer the opportunity to take advantage of the incentive program without requiring them to purchase anything." You say it is ok if a shop the promotion get(buy) 10 haircuts and get the 10th free. Well that would be requiring them to purchase something in order to receive the free gift. Would it not?

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by Arzel
I am not going to target you.

Actually I would like to see someone cycle the 1,000,000. You would be audited very quickly after that, as would the person winning. I would love to hear the explanation for such a large cash transaction to an IRS auditor. But that will probably never happen since the total signup would have to be over a million people (I doubt anyone is going to jump right into those upper lists.)

You know but if he is running a legit business he will have all the records he will need for the IRS. So this will not even be a problem. Matrix sites are legal. If they were not, they would not be here and doing the massive business that they are. I would think twice about a site being legal if there were just one little shop set up doing business, but you have hundereds of sites with more than likely millions of dollars involved with the lot of them. The government let little scams that do not involve much money slip by all the time, but when you are talking about revenue of this kind they usually pay attention.

[Arzel]

Matrix ponzi sites are Illegal. I don't care how good of an ebook it is, but to say that someone would EVER buy an ebook for $250,000 is ridiculous.

Matrix sites are legal. If they were not, they would not be here and doing the massive business that they are.

what kind of logic is this. They exist so they must be legal? There is a massive amount of drug trafficing business in the us, but that is not legal.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrix ponzi sites are Illegal. I don't care how good of an ebook it is, but to say that someone would EVER buy an ebook for $250,000 is asinine.



what kind of logic is this. They exist so they must be legal? There is a massive amount of drug trafficing business in the us, but that is not legal.


Point taken Arzel....Even though the asinine comment was not necessary......

[Arzel]

Word removed tcb. But I would still like to know what you are selling for $250,000?

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Word removed tcb. But I would still like to know what you are selling for $250,000?

It is on the site, it is a some ebooks, and since they come with resell rights I can sell them for however much I want. Of course if you have noticed I have not had any takers, yet.....

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrix ponzi sites are Illegal. I don't care how good of an ebook it is, but to say that someone would EVER buy an ebook for $250,000 is ridiculous.

They have not been deemed Ponzi as of yet nor will they be. The very heart of the Ponzi scheme is that in basic terms the top investors are paid by the new investors. This is not the case with matrix sites. The people on the free lists are paid by the selling of a product. It does not matter what the product is. There is no law against selling something for more than it is worth. It happens everyday, with virtually every product on earth. There is always going to be someone who will pay a outrageous price for something they can get for free if they would just look for it.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by matrixfriendly
They have not been deemed Ponzi as of yet nor will they be. The very heart of the Ponzi scheme is that in basic terms the top investors are paid by the new investors. This is not the case with matrix sites. The people on the free lists are paid by the selling of a product. It does not matter what the product is. There is no law against selling something for more than it is worth. It happens everyday, with virtually every product on earth. There is always going to be someone who will pay a outrageous price for something they can get for free if they would just look for it.

Very well said.....I couldn't have said it better myself....

[Arzel]

Matrixfriendly,

I am almost at a loss for words. The million dollar website does exactly what you are saying a ponzi scheme does, but yet you claim it not to be a ponzi scheme.

tcb, you agree, and yet you know fully well that what you are doing is a scam. I do not believe you are an honest matrix site owner.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrixfriendly,

I am almost at a loss for words. The million dollar website does exactly what you are saying a ponzi scheme does, but yet you claim it not to be a ponzi scheme.

tcb, you agree, and yet you know fully well that what you are doing is a scam. I do not believe you are an honest matrix site owner.

I have been pretty tollerant, until now of the insults....

I take it very personally that you would say that I am scamming people cause that has never been my intention. It was just another idea for a Matrix idea, and because you don't like it, you want to say I am pulling a scam.

How dare you, I have and always will be a law abiding citizen. I served in the USMC, and was in the Gulf War of 91, so that people like you can tell me I am a scam artist. I put my life on the line for people like you , and it sickens me.........

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrix ponzi sites are Illegal. I don't care how good of an ebook it is, but to say that someone would EVER buy an ebook for $250,000 is ridiculous.



what kind of logic is this. They exist so they must be legal? There is a massive amount of drug trafficing business in the us, but that is not legal.


who says its up to you to decide how much an ebook is worth to someone..this is the USA..a free country. i've seen used coke cans sold over the internet for more that you'd think...i've seen people more than happy to take junk from other people garage...looks like you're a supporter of communism or dictatorship in which ur the dictator, telling people what you can buy for what cuz of what you value them as

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrixfriendly,

I am almost at a loss for words. The million dollar website does exactly what you are saying a ponzi scheme does, but yet you claim it not to be a ponzi scheme.

tcb, you agree, and yet you know fully well that what you are doing is a scam. I do not believe you are an honest matrix site owner.

just cuz u can bash other people and insult them doesn't make you correct nor a very good moderator. u think u have the power to delete other people's post and leave ur own on so that u can tell other people "oh, he's not honest"...thats not cool. i could have easily said the reverse:

arzel, you DISagree, and yet you know fully well that what we(matrixsites) are doing is not a scam. I do not believe you are an honest HUMAN PERSON. ...

but i didn't say that and i don't mean or believe that. i'm just saying that this forum is a FORUM and you, as a moderator, should especially know that you should bash people about their opinions.

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrixfriendly,

I am almost at a loss for words. The million dollar website does exactly what you are saying a ponzi scheme does, but yet you claim it not to be a ponzi scheme.

tcb, you agree, and yet you know fully well that what you are doing is a scam. I do not believe you are an honest matrix site owner.

As far as I can tell he TCB sells ebooks and advertises to promote and push his sites forward. That does set him aside from a ponzi. I have also not seen one misleading comment on his sites. He states it clearly and there is a point when the consumer should be held accountable for not paying attention to what they are doing.

[tcb1969a]

You know Arzel, I have pretty much gave my word to Watch Dog that I would not insult anyone on this forum, but you make it pretty hard not to insult you back, when you so blatantly insult me......But I will keep my word to Watch Dog......luckily I had somewhere to go earlier and cool off....

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by hurley9192
correct...it is a ponzi scheme where the early investors get paid through the later investors...

They absolutely are not! What rock have you been hiding under. The people are compensated with the sale of a product whether it be a ebook or bottled air. It really does not matter as long as they are buying something.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by Arzel
Matrix ponzi sites are Illegal. I don't care how good of an ebook it is, but to say that someone would EVER buy an ebook for $250,000 is ridiculous.



what kind of logic is this. They exist so they must be legal? There is a massive amount of drug trafficing business in the us, but that is not legal.

I know of a site that sells high quality jewelry instead of e-book packages and you still get your matrix entry. The jewelry isnt over priced in fact its cheaper than you would pay in most stores and it really is great stuff. So how does that fit in with your logic. Its nothing you can get for free anywhere.. Its worth more than the price your paying for the jewelry without the free gift invovled. So you already made an investment without any one else joining and you can reselll your jewelry for a profit so you can make money all without the free gift invovled. The free gift is a nice extra bonus but I just proved how sites can sell items and run the matrix structure without being a ponzi scheme.. And just in case you want to try to go there. the same site also has a cut off piont on their lists. So after so many people join they stop adding names to the list.. They continue tp cycle the names off their list by selling the jewelry as is(because its worth that much without a free gift invovled), an autocycle fund, and a third website they built that is in no way matrix, mlm invovled that sells 10,000 products. 75% off all their profits from this site also goes to helping cycle names off the list until the list is empty. So not only do you now have a tangible product that is worth the price your paying for it, you also no longer have an endless chain. So I guess this matrix site totally demolishes the whole call me a ponzi scheme idea...

[Arzel]

tcb,

You say you are an honest site owner, and are only trying to help people. What do you say to the people of your site if someone were to cycle the $1,000,000? By the length of your list you would see a profit of $500,000, sure you may use some of that money to cycle other people in an autocycle type fund, but there will still be 5 people on the list out $250,000, how do you plan on cycling them?

There would be 100's of thousands of people in your list at this time, and when the lists stalled and ended what would you say to these people?

I have seen a few people make references to Robin Hood, where the rich are robbed to pay the poor. Well, a matrix is just the opposite. Designed to take the money from many people to make a few people rich. I don't see how some of you can not see the moral issues regarding this.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by Arzel
tcb,

You say you are an honest site owner, and are only trying to help people. What do you say to the people of your site if someone were to cycle the $1,000,000? By the length of your list you would see a profit of $500,000, sure you may use some of that money to cycle other people in an autocycle type fund, but there will still be 5 people on the list out $250,000, how do you plan on cycling them?

There would be 100's of thousands of people in your list at this time, and when the lists stalled and ended what would you say to these people?

I have seen a few people make references to Robin Hood, where the rich are robbed to pay the poor. Well, a matrix is just the opposite. Designed to take the money from many people to make a few people rich. I don't see how some of you can not see the moral issues regarding this.


i can see it, but unforunately, morals don't mean much...if you were moral, then you'd donate ur money to those poor in ethiopia so they have food. the human race is greedy and its human nature. neither is life fair. deal with it.

[northstar5757]

I don't know about you mystic but many of us do donate money to help children in Africa. Of course there is only so much that one can afford. I certainly don't buy the human nature explanation as an excuse for immoral behaviour.

[Arzel]

Mysticx,

Tcb claims to be an honest person, hence a person with morals, which is why I made that point.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by Arzel

I have seen a few people make references to Robin Hood, where the rich are robbed to pay the poor. Well, a matrix is just the opposite. Designed to take the money from many people to make a few people rich. I don't see how some of you can not see the moral issues regarding this.

Moral issues blah.... Arzel You act like its all these hugh hefners, Donald trumps, and Bill Gates.. The truth is most matrix site owners are not very well off themselves. Thats why they are starting their own businesses to make money.. Everyone knows I want to start my own site and yes I want to start my own site to make money. Why because I have a baby and must stoy at home with them. I havent had a real job in over 6 months and moneys really tight. I want to be able to pay my bills, and my my baby things he needs, and yes maybe finally have a little extra to spend. Plus its a perfect work at home job. Im not sittin gat home contemplating on how to rip people off, I trying to figure out how to run a sucessful business that can last years upon, upon years and will support me and my consumers. I definetly dont consider myself morally corrupt for wanting to so this..

[uwantme]

Originally posted by MysticX23
i can see it, but unforunately, morals don't mean much...if you were moral, then you'd donate ur money to those poor in ethiopia so they have food. the human race is greedy and its human nature. neither is life fair. deal with it.

Not if you dont have the money to give, many of use our already trying to support our own families. Oh yeah poor as I am I still donate to the Human Society. In my opinion animals deserve it more than humans... but thats a different story.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by Arzel
Mysticx,

Tcb claims to be an honest person, hence a person with morals, which is why I made that point.

Morals is plural. Just because you lie doesnt mean your without morals. It would be a lie if I said I never lied.. But I wouldnt go out here and rob someone or a bank, or kill somebody... So I still have morals still.

[Arzel]

So you are saying it is ok to lie to someone, just so long as you don't kill them?

[northstar5757]

That is correct of course there will always be some matrix owners who have very high morals. Nothing is absolute you will always find exceptions just like some matrix sites sell decent products.

But the FACT remains that you will find a much higher rate of individuals who are antisocial and maipulative running ponzi schemes than in the general public. For those of you not familiar with antisocial personality disorder its primary feature is a disregard for others, often through exploitation.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by Arzel
So you are saying it is ok to lie to someone, just so long as you don't kill them?

No i didnt say that at all. D*mn yall are bad for twisting things around. I didnt even say it was okay to lie.. I said it would be a lie to say I have never lied. In fact if anyone on this board says they have never told a lie then they are liars. My point is just because I have lied doesnt mean Im going to go do other bad things like stealing, murdering etc. So Im not without morals. You said in order for a person to have morals they have to be honest. I just disagree because like I said I may have lied before but I still have morals.

[Arzel]

That was purely a socialogical question. The point is where do you draw the line? At what level does the lie affect people other people in a personal nature.

If your TOS states that you will only cycle when a certain condition is reached, but you know that many people will never cycle is that a lie? Probably not, but is moral? If you said that chances are you will not recieve a free gift, that would be the truth, but that would hinder your sales.

I am not trying to say that anyone on this forum is an unmoral person, regardless of the way some of my posts have come across. But I do think that some people may act in a way that is misleading without really realizing it.

Let me ask you why did you choose this model for your home business?

[uwantme]

Reasons for choosing this model

1. I am a matrix customer and like the sites alot. Except for a few basic flaws I think they are great and fun.

2. They involve low start up costs compared to other businesses and are easy to maintain.

3. I think it would be easy to build a better matrix site you know(selling tangible goods, no endless, lines etc) and come out way ahead of your competition.

4. Its a great at home job that wouldnt require to much time, so I can still care for my baby.

5. And yes, it is proftible and even with taking the time and money to buy tangible products and getting all the names cleaned off my lists, I still believe I can come out with a profit..

6. Its easy to get the products you need. I have found lots of wholesale sources for the tangible items I will sale and for the ones I will give as free gifts.

7. I think it will be fun to do. I job I will enjoy running and having. Its what everyone wants no?

Heck its America the land of dreams, but I will make mine a working reality.

[tcb1969a]

I am not trying to say that anyone on this forum is an unmoral person, regardless of the way some of my posts have come across. But I do think that some people may act in a way that is misleading without really realizing it.

Um, you said I was scamming people, which would insinuate that I am an immoral person.....

Further, I started my sites to help people not hurt them, further I had plans that those sites would stay open for a long time. So it is not like I am taking peoples money, not cyclying anyone, and then running with there money....Cause that is not what I do....

[northstar5757]

TB: But you do understand that a matrix must eventually crumble correct? the longer your site runs the more people that will end up losing there money. The most dangerous pyramid schemes are the one's that last for years. The people who ran such operations either left the country or are in jail now.

We both know that if you wern't selling ebooks (and just a place in the matrix) it is to get by a legality. Also is it even legal to sell some of the ebooks? If they can be obtained for free often you are allowed to redistribute them but not sell them.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by northstar5757
TB: But you do understand that a matrix must eventually crumble correct? the longer your site runs the more people that will end up losing there money. The most dangerous pyramid schemes are the one's that last for years. The people who ran such operations either left the country or are in jail now.

We both know that if you wern't selling ebooks (and just a place in the matrix) it is to get by a legality. Also is it even legal to sell some of the ebooks? If they can be obtained for free often you are allowed to redistribute them but not sell them.

Yes I do agree with your comments, and in fact I am very open minded and do understand your alls concerns. But after all it is a legal site at the moment, until the law says otherwise for which I do not see them saying that it is illegal, though anything is possible. The only thing I see that might happen is that in certain states it might be illegal eventually, but we will have to cross that bridge when we get there.

As far as ebooks go, I also sell desktop wallpaper as well, though we have already ascertained that it doesn't make a difference as well....

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by Arzel

If your TOS states that you will only cycle when a certain condition is reached, but you know that many people will never cycle is that a lie? Probably not, but is moral? If you said that chances are you will not recieve a free gift, that would be the truth, but that would hinder your sales.


If the lottery will start saying in their tos as well as vegas telling people openly " you probably will lose your money" or something like that, then i'd say that you have a good point. but why do they not do that? cuz that would hinder their sales too. i don't see y matrix sites have to be different.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by northstar5757
TB: But you do understand that a matrix must eventually crumble correct? the longer your site runs the more people that will end up losing there money. The most dangerous pyramid schemes are the one's that last for years. The people who ran such operations either left the country or are in jail now.

We both know that if you wern't selling ebooks (and just a place in the matrix) it is to get by a legality. Also is it even legal to sell some of the ebooks? If they can be obtained for free often you are allowed to redistribute them but not sell them.

for me,i understand that. but you know what? right now its legal, and i guess for people who want to run it, it should be their choice. its good caution you give them, but at least for quite awhile(until the lawsuit goes thru), i'm pretty sure that its legal to run them.

i'm pretty sure that you can sell the ebooks cuz they come with some "full reselling rights" or something like that.

[northstar5757]

Yes i know some ebooks you can resell. But I'm wondering about ebooks that you get for free (I know some sites use these). I'm pretty sure you cannot sell those ebooks

[poorme]

I observe that mystics turns into fully matrix lover cause you are openning the matrix site.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by poorme
I observe that mystics turns into fully matrix lover cause you are openning the matrix site.

i'm opening a matrix site? LOL..i wish i could, but i can't. i'm a full time student and have no time to do that. i'm only giving my opinions on this matrix stuff while i'm at my internship during summer cuz i'm freakin bored at work...they don't' have much for us to do here...and its interesting

i'm not quite a fully matrix lover cuz i can see the "pryamid scheme" but i can also see that my account is getting bigger from those "free prizes"...i just got paid 150 dollars in the past 24 hours from matrix sites =D....my conclusion is that its legal right now....and some people here (including me sometimes i kno) are making irrelavent conclusions such as you can't buy more than 1 ebook cuz its "unreasonable". its not your choice who buys how much of what. its america.

[Arzel]

Mysticx,

The odds of winning the Powerball lottery are clearly stated on the card which you use to pick your numbers. Slot machines and pull tabs list the payback rate for those games. The odds on other games of chance are similarly noted. Games of skill, blackjack and poker for example, don't qualify because of the way the game is played.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by Arzel
Mysticx,

The odds of winning the Powerball lottery are clearly stated on the card which you use to pick your numbers. Slot machines and pull tabs list the payback rate for those games. The odds on other games of chance are similarly noted. Games of skill, blackjack and poker for example, don't qualify because of the way the game is played.

Yes, but some people truelly do not understand the odds (number wise) at the lottery/gambling places..........

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by MysticX23
i'm opening a matrix site? LOL..i wish i could, but i can't. i'm a full time student and have no time to do that. i'm only giving my opinions on this matrix stuff while i'm at my internship during summer cuz i'm freakin bored at work...they don't' have much for us to do here...and its interesting

i'm not quite a fully matrix lover cuz i can see the "pryamid scheme" but i can also see that my account is getting bigger from those "free prizes"...i just got paid 150 dollars in the past 24 hours from matrix sites =D....my conclusion is that its legal right now....and some people here (including me sometimes i kno) are making irrelavent conclusions such as you can't buy more than 1 ebook cuz its "unreasonable". its not your choice who buys how much of what. its america.

My advice to you Mystic, is to keep being a Matrix customer, there are too many Matrix sites out there, so there is not much money to be made as a Matrix owner....It is more profitable to be a Matrix customer..........

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by Arzel
Mysticx,

The odds of winning the Powerball lottery are clearly stated on the card which you use to pick your numbers. Slot machines and pull tabs list the payback rate for those games. The odds on other games of chance are similarly noted. Games of skill, blackjack and poker for example, don't qualify because of the way the game is played.

true, but the odds that more people sign up can't be determined. if i'm 5th on the list, my odds to cycle is variable, as with the tme frame. you can predict when and how many people will sign up.

also, many people don't read the odds cuz their printed in tiny little fonts on the back. so if we somehow can calculate the odds and then put it in fine print in the tos(that most people don't read on anything), it'd be ok u say?

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
Reasons for choosing this model

1. I am a matrix customer and like the sites alot. Except for a few basic flaws I think they are great and fun.

2. They involve low start up costs compared to other businesses and are easy to maintain.

3. I think it would be easy to build a better matrix site you know(selling tangible goods, no endless, lines etc) and come out way ahead of your competition.

4. Its a great at home job that wouldnt require to much time, so I can still care for my baby.

5. And yes, it is proftible and even with taking the time and money to buy tangible products and getting all the names cleaned off my lists, I still believe I can come out with a profit..

6. Its easy to get the products you need. I have found lots of wholesale sources for the tangible items I will sale and for the ones I will give as free gifts.

7. I think it will be fun to do. I job I will enjoy running and having. Its what everyone wants no?

Heck its America the land of dreams, but I will make mine a working reality.

I don't understand how you can say that there is low startup cost in your scenario. Most Matrix sites have low startup costs, because they sell something for $45 or whatever that costs them $01 or even less. You want to sell tangable goods, which is just fine, but don't you have to buy those items first? You can't sell something unless you have it in stock. Secondly, you will have to pay for storage for your items until they sell. Also, you say that there will be little work involved, but you will have to ship everything that you sell. I hope you know that that takes time. I ran a shipping department for a while, and packing and shipping something, even if it is small, such as a watch takes at least about 15 minutes to package once you fill out the address lables, shipping invoices, and the paperwork that the shipping company such as UPS or FedEx requires. Then you have to pay for packing supplies. Almost all wholesale warehouses that ship things like t-shirts, or whatever will sell you 1 large box with 1000 t-shirts inside. You will have to buy individual boxes and other shipping supplies which are very expensive.

Now add it up. Storage space, wholesale costs for items, shippinc costs, and don't forget your time. If you want to spend some of it with your child, then you will most likely have to hire a shipping person to help out. That costs money also.

So in the end, after all of those expenses, how are you going to make enough money to also include prizes? Are they going to be less expensive prizes? You can't really do a matrix for a TV selling T-Shirts. Your profit will probably be about $3-$4 each before setting aside any money for the matrix prize, and that is already taking into account overhead. Walmart probably makes about $.15 per shirt.

I think that you are 100% correct when you sat that there are a few basic flaws in what others are doing. Actually there is only one flaw. The matrix concept just doesn't work mathematically. No matter what limits you impose. It may be a great SHORT TERM advertising ploy, but word of mouth is a great long term advertising ploy, and if even one customer thinks what you are doing is illegal or imoral, even if it is illegal, the word of mouth can kill you.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
I don't understand how you can say that there is low startup cost in your scenario. Most Matrix sites have low startup costs, because they sell something for $45 or whatever that costs them $01 or even less. You want to sell tangable goods, which is just fine, but don't you have to buy those items first? You can't sell something unless you have it in stock. Secondly, you will have to pay for storage for your items until they sell. Also, you say that there will be little work involved, but you will have to ship everything that you sell. I hope you know that that takes time. I ran a shipping department for a while, and packing and shipping something, even if it is small, such as a watch takes at least about 15 minutes to package once you fill out the address lables, shipping invoices, and the paperwork that the shipping company such as UPS or FedEx requires. Then you have to pay for packing supplies. Almost all wholesale warehouses that ship things like t-shirts, or whatever will sell you 1 large box with 1000 t-shirts inside. You will have to buy individual boxes and other shipping supplies which are very expensive.

Now add it up. Storage space, wholesale costs for items, shippinc costs, and don't forget your time. If you want to spend some of it with your child, then you will most likely have to hire a shipping person to help out. That costs money also.

So in the end, after all of those expenses, how are you going to make enough money to also include prizes? Are they going to be less expensive prizes? You can't really do a matrix for a TV selling T-Shirts. Your profit will probably be about $3-$4 each before setting aside any money for the matrix prize, and that is already taking into account overhead. Walmart probably makes about $.15 per shirt.

I think that you are 100% correct when you sat that there are a few basic flaws in what others are doing. Actually there is only one flaw. The matrix concept just doesn't work mathematically. No matter what limits you impose. It may be a great SHORT TERM advertising ploy, but word of mouth is a great long term advertising ploy, and if even one customer thinks what you are doing is illegal or imoral, even if it is illegal, the word of mouth can kill you.

Actually there are companies called Drop Shippers that will handle the inventory for you, and you still will be able to sell at below retail prices, and still make a profit. Plus these Drop Shippers will mail the packages for you. And on some items, shipping and handling is free......

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Actually there are companies called Drop Shippers that will handle the inventory for you, and you still will be able to sell at below retail prices, and still make a profit. Plus these Drop Shippers will mail the packages for you. And on some items, shipping and handling is free......

Just like the matrix concept of the matrix being an advertising ploy, so is the free shipping from drop shippers, EXCEPT AT A MORE EXPENSIVE WHOLESALE PRICE PER PRODUCT TO THE CUSTOMER.

IS THE PROFIT SUCH THAT IF YOU SELL 20 TSHIRTS, YOU CAN GIVE AWAY A PLASME SCREEN TV?

NOTHING IS FOR FREE!!!!!!

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
Just like the matrix concept of the matrix being an advertising ploy, so is the free shipping from drop shippers, EXCEPT AT A MORE EXPENSIVE WHOLESALE PRICE PER PRODUCT TO THE CUSTOMER.

IS THE PROFIT SUCH THAT IF YOU SELL 20 TSHIRTS, YOU CAN GIVE AWAY A PLASME SCREEN TV?

NOTHING IS FOR FREE!!!!!!

So offering Free Shipping is the same as a Matrix....hmmm

Just who's side are you on....

Are you converting over to my side....???

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
So offering Free Shipping is the same as a Matrix....hmmm

Just who's side are you on....

Are you converting over to my side....???


NO

I am using your argument that the matrix is for advertising ONLY.
You have said this in the past. My point is that nothing is fore free. There is always a price. If things were for free, then the matrix owners would allow me to have a spot on their matrix without requiring me to buy anything, but then AND ONLY THEN, will the matrix concept become MORE LEGAL.

I have a security clearance to maintain, so I would never condone illegal activity. I'm nut dumb.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
NO

I am using your argument that the matrix is for advertising ONLY.
You have said this in the past. My point is that nothing is fore free. There is always a price. If things were for free, then the matrix owners would allow me to have a spot on their matrix without requiring me to buy anything, but then AND ONLY THEN, will the matrix concept become MORE LEGAL.

I have a security clearance to maintain, so I would never condone illegal activity. I'm nut dumb.

But by siding with my argument, aren't you in essence condoning Matrix system....

Since there is always a price......

But if you want to come on over to the other side, I have 3 sites you can come visit......just kidding.....lol

[uwantme]

Originally posted by concerned
I don't understand how you can say that there is low startup cost in your scenario. Most Matrix sites have low startup costs, because they sell something for $45 or whatever that costs them $01 or even less. You want to sell tangable goods, which is just fine, but don't you have to buy those items first? You can't sell something unless you have it in stock. Secondly, you will have to pay for storage for your items until they sell. Also, you say that there will be little work involved, but you will have to ship everything that you sell. I hope you know that that takes time. I ran a shipping department for a while, and packing and shipping something, even if it is small, such as a watch takes at least about 15 minutes to package once you fill out the address lables, shipping invoices, and the paperwork that the shipping company such as UPS or FedEx requires. Then you have to pay for packing supplies. Almost all wholesale warehouses that ship things like t-shirts, or whatever will sell you 1 large box with 1000 t-shirts inside. You will have to buy individual boxes and other shipping supplies which are very expensive.

Now add it up. Storage space, wholesale costs for items, shippinc costs, and don't forget your time. If you want to spend some of it with your child, then you will most likely have to hire a shipping person to help out. That costs money also.

So in the end, after all of those expenses, how are you going to make enough money to also include prizes? Are they going to be less expensive prizes? You can't really do a matrix for a TV selling T-Shirts. Your profit will probably be about $3-$4 each before setting aside any money for the matrix prize, and that is already taking into account overhead. Walmart probably makes about $.15 per shirt.

I think that you are 100% correct when you sat that there are a few basic flaws in what others are doing. Actually there is only one flaw. The matrix concept just doesn't work mathematically. No matter what limits you impose. It may be a great SHORT TERM advertising ploy, but word of mouth is a great long term advertising ploy, and if even one customer thinks what you are doing is illegal or imoral, even if it is illegal, the word of mouth can kill you.

Okay here we go-

Low start-up costs
I have already researched this. I believe I will sell body jewelry-tongue rings, belly rings, labarets, ear rings, etc. I have found a wholesaler and alreadt made a small personal purchase from them to make sure they are an honest business. Doing the math already I can buy enough body jewelry to fill about 500 orders for around $300-$400. Storage- do you know how big body jewelery is? I can store over 3000 pieces of body jewelry in a shoe box. Shipping- 1 trip to the post office every week. Once again the packages are small even if I have 100 orders a week it would still only take 1 trip to the post office and probably about 1 hour there to handle everything. People would still recieve their jewelry in about 2 weeks at the longest depending on when they bought it. Labels and all that stuff might take a full 3-5 hours a week.

I already went through the cost thing but I will do it again. The wholesaler im purchasing from sells to me the same tongue ring you would buy in a shop for $30 for only 15 cents. So even if I sell them for only $20 which is still $10 cheaper than the store and over 100% markup I will make a profit. Minus another $5 for taxes, shipping, and fees and I still have $15 profit. $15 profit times 100 orders in a week eguals $1500. No I dont plan on giving free tvs on my site just things like PS2s, X-boxs, Gameboys, laptops etc... Which once again I have found wholesalers for. I have a wholesaler where I can buy a brand new nice $1200 laptop for only $400. So as you can see I can still afford the free gifts and will still have a profit left over.

You say the only flaw is mathmatics- thats why I wont have endless lists. If I cut each list off at 50 people counting the ones who have already cycled by the time you get to 50 and then cycle the remaining people off using continued purchases of the body jewelry through my site which by this time would have recieved lots of publicity so I should have customers visiting on a regular basis not to mention repeat customers who want more body jewelry. It really should be a problem or take a long time get clean off the lists. I would imagine 6 months at the most and lets be real honest most matrix sites cant touch that. Since we will also offer refunds and excellent custmer service I can imagine having to many unhappy people, and one or two wont really kill you.. I believe there is an estimated 200 million people online, nah I cant see one or two unhappy ones though they will have no reason to be unhappy hurting the business that much..

[tcb1969a]

Hmm....uwantme.....maybe me and you should talk.....found wholesalers have you for PS2 and such....

By the way I like your idea more and more every time you explain it.......

[mikv]

I know it's been argued to wit's end, but being that you are purchasing the ebook or whatever the case is, and you do actually receive said ebooks (in most cases), the gift IS technically free. You are not paying for the Free Product, otherwise the owner would have to pay up as soon as you pay them. You may be paying for the listing (although most TOS's try their hardest to explain that you aren't), the free gift is a genuinely free gift. Although to "qualify" for the free gift you must be placed on the list. Nothing in this world is free "unless you qualify".

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by mikv
I know it's been argued to wit's end, but being that you are purchasing the ebook or whatever the case is, and you do actually receive said ebooks (in most cases), the gift IS technically free. You are not paying for the Free Product, otherwise the owner would have to pay up as soon as you pay them. You may be paying for the listing (although most TOS's try their hardest to explain that you aren't), the free gift is a genuinely free gift. Although to "qualify" for the free gift you must be placed on the list. Nothing in this world is free "unless you qualify".

I'm confused.....are you for or against matrix sites.......

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
Okay here we go-

Low start-up costs
I have already researched this. I believe I will sell body jewelry-tongue rings, belly rings, labarets, ear rings, etc. I have found a wholesaler and alreadt made a small personal purchase from them to make sure they are an honest business. Doing the math already I can buy enough body jewelry to fill about 500 orders for around $300-$400. Storage- do you know how big body jewelery is? I can store over 3000 pieces of body jewelry in a shoe box. Shipping- 1 trip to the post office every week. Once again the packages are small even if I have 100 orders a week it would still only take 1 trip to the post office and probably about 1 hour there to handle everything. People would still recieve their jewelry in about 2 weeks at the longest depending on when they bought it. Labels and all that stuff might take a full 3-5 hours a week.

I already went through the cost thing but I will do it again. The wholesaler im purchasing from sells to me the same tongue ring you would buy in a shop for $30 for only 15 cents. So even if I sell them for only $20 which is still $10 cheaper than the store and over 100% markup I will make a profit. Minus another $5 for taxes, shipping, and fees and I still have $15 profit. $15 profit times 100 orders in a week eguals $1500. No I dont plan on giving free tvs on my site just things like PS2s, X-boxs, Gameboys, laptops etc... Which once again I have found wholesalers for. I have a wholesaler where I can buy a brand new nice $1200 laptop for only $400. So as you can see I can still afford the free gifts and will still have a profit left over.

You say the only flaw is mathmatics- thats why I wont have endless lists. If I cut each list off at 50 people counting the ones who have already cycled by the time you get to 50 and then cycle the remaining people off using continued purchases of the body jewelry through my site which by this time would have recieved lots of publicity so I should have customers visiting on a regular basis not to mention repeat customers who want more body jewelry. It really should be a problem or take a long time get clean off the lists. I would imagine 6 months at the most and lets be real honest most matrix sites cant touch that. Since we will also offer refunds and excellent custmer service I can imagine having to many unhappy people, and one or two wont really kill you.. I believe there is an estimated 200 million people online, nah I cant see one or two unhappy ones though they will have no reason to be unhappy hurting the business that much..

If I am reading this correctly, you are going to limit the list to 50 people, and you will cycle everyone with future sales. What happens to the people that are the "future sales"? Do they get onto another list?

[uwantme]

No they dont get on the list they are buying body jewelry. and before you say no one will buy body jewelry without the free gift thats BS... There is a high market for cheap body jewelry and if people can buy it $10 or $15 cheaper than they would have to pay in the stores then of course there will alsways be someone to buy it... On top of that just for the sake of aurgument because I will try my hardest to get everyone off the list if some would not make it off the list it was a free gift. They didnt pay to get on a list and recieve nothing they have already recieved the body jewelry at a cheaper cost than if they bought it in the store. So they have got their moneys worth. And if I cant cycle the last few off the list and they are unhappy with their purchase they can return their body jewelry to me in the condition it was sen tto them and I will refund them. No problem..

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
No they dont get on the list they are buying body jewelry. and before you say no one will buy body jewelry without the free gift thats BS... There is a high market for cheap body jewelry and if people can buy it $10 or $15 cheaper than they would have to pay in the stores then of course there will alsways be someone to buy it... On top of that just for the sake of aurgument because I will try my hardest to get everyone off the list if some would not make it off the list it was a free gift. They didnt pay to get on a list and recieve nothing they have already recieved the body jewelry at a cheaper cost than if they bought it in the store. So they have got their moneys worth. And if I cant cycle the last few off the list and they are unhappy with their purchase they can return their body jewelry to me in the condition it was sen tto them and I will refund them. No problem..

OK, now I see what you are saying, but I think that YOU still have a flaw. If you state anywhere that you will cycle people on a list with the sales generated from later sales, you are subject to the ponzi definition that states that you cannot pay people at the front of the line with money taken from people further down the line. With that said, why don't you just word it another way.

Anytime you add a new product, let's say you just get in a new style of earring, and you have 1000 units to sell, why don't you advertise it as "THE FIRST 50 CUSTOMERS TO BY PRODUCT X GET A FREE GIFT!" You can limit that depending on how many units you have to sell. If you only have 100 units, the first 5 get one free. At least it will sound more honest, and more ethical and I think it is better advertising than using the word matrix, since that word has been trashed in the media lately.

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
No they dont get on the list they are buying body jewelry. and before you say no one will buy body jewelry without the free gift thats BS... There is a high market for cheap body jewelry and if people can buy it $10 or $15 cheaper than they would have to pay in the stores then of course there will alsways be someone to buy it... On top of that just for the sake of aurgument because I will try my hardest to get everyone off the list if some would not make it off the list it was a free gift. They didnt pay to get on a list and recieve nothing they have already recieved the body jewelry at a cheaper cost than if they bought it in the store. So they have got their moneys worth. And if I cant cycle the last few off the list and they are unhappy with their purchase they can return their body jewelry to me in the condition it was sen tto them and I will refund them. No problem..

ALSO, YOU SAY THAT YOU WILL REFUND MONEY WHEN THEY RETURN THEIR MERCHANDISE. WHAT IF SOMEONE THAT ALREADY CYCLED WANTS TO RETURN THEIR MERCHANDISE. ARE YOU GOING TO REQUIRE THAT THEY SEND BACK THE FREE PRIZE ALSO, OR ARE YOU GOING TO DENY THE RETURN BASED ON THE FACT THAT THEY ALREADY CYCLED.

I'M TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE MIGHT BE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT WOULD TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU LIKE THAT.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
OK, now I see what you are saying, but I think that YOU still have a flaw. If you state anywhere that you will cycle people on a list with the sales generated from later sales, you are subject to the ponzi definition that states that you cannot pay people at the front of the line with money taken from people further down the line. With that said, why don't you just word it another way.

Anytime you add a new product, let's say you just get in a new style of earring, and you have 1000 units to sell, why don't you advertise it as "THE FIRST 50 CUSTOMERS TO BY PRODUCT X GET A FREE GIFT!" You can limit that depending on how many units you have to sell. If you only have 100 units, the first 5 get one free. At least it will sound more honest, and more ethical and I think it is better advertising than using the word matrix, since that word has been trashed in the media lately.

Do you gamble at a casino, concerned?

If you do, let me ask you something. Where do you think the money comes from when you win at slots or blackjack or whatever is your game?

It comes from others who have lost before you......hmm

Could I make a case that Gambling Casinos are a glorified Ponzi scheme?

Not....

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Do you gamble at a casino, concerned?

If you do, let me ask you something. Where do you think the money comes from when you win at slots or blackjack or whatever is your game?

It comes from others who have lost before you......hmm

Could I make a case that Gambling Casinos are a glorified Ponzi scheme?

Not....

First off, I don't gamble. Everybody looses at a casino, or else the casinos would be broke. Second, a casino operates on percentages, not the dependance of future customers. And thirdly, your example has nothing to do with this argument. You said that if you win at a casino, they pay you with what other people have ALREADY lost, but a matrix pays you with what future people will pay in. In order for a casino to be a ponzi scheme, they would have to let me play blackjack, and then in 3 months after 1000 other people loos, then they would pay me. I never said that your idea was a PONZI SCHEME. I think your idea has some VALIDITY. I just said that you might want to word your idea differently to avoid the confusion of a ponzi scheme. I don't know why you think the following two statements are so different.

1) The first 50 will be placed on a list and given a free gift based on future sales.

2) The first 50 people get a free gift.

The only difference between the two, is that number 2 sounds more honest, and more legitimate, and there are no misconceptions of ponzi at all in that statement. Statement number 1 can be interpreted to be a ponzi scheme, while number 2 cannot.

BTW
In order for the casino case to be compared to a casino, the matrix would have to cycle the last person to pay in, instead of the first person in.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
First off, I don't gamble. Everybody looses at a casino, or else the casinos would be broke. Second, a casino operates on percentages, not the dependance of future customers. And thirdly, your example has nothing to do with this argument. You said that if you win at a casino, they pay you with what other people have ALREADY lost, but a matrix pays you with what future people will pay in. In order for a casino to be a ponzi scheme, they would have to let me play blackjack, and then in 3 months after 1000 other people loos, then they would pay me. I never said that your idea was a PONZI SCHEME. I think your idea has some VALIDITY. I just said that you might want to word your idea differently to avoid the confusion of a ponzi scheme. I don't know why you think the following two statements are so different.

1) The first 50 will be placed on a list and given a free gift based on future sales.

2) The first 50 people get a free gift.

The only difference between the two, is that number 2 sounds more honest, and more legitimate, and there are no misconceptions of ponzi at all in that statement. Statement number 1 can be interpreted to be a ponzi scheme, while number 2 cannot.

BTW
In order for the casino case to be compared to a casino, the matrix would have to cycle the last person to pay in, instead of the first person in.

Yes and that is the reason why I usually do not like making analogies.....because someone can always find a loophole...

In anycase, your # 1 is the truth and that is why Matrix sites say it. If we said #2 then we would be convicted of fraud since it isn't true....

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Yes and that is the reason why I usually do not like making analogies.....because someone can always find a loophole...

In anycase, your # 1 is the truth and that is why Matrix sites say it. If we said #2 then we would be convicted of fraud since it isn't true....

How would it be fraud. Didn't you just tell me that you are going to limit your list to 50 people and you were going to cycle all of them?

[uwantme]

Originally posted by concerned
OK, now I see what you are saying, but I think that YOU still have a flaw. If you state anywhere that you will cycle people on a list with the sales generated from later sales, you are subject to the ponzi definition that states that you cannot pay people at the front of the line with money taken from people further down the line. With that said, why don't you just word it another way.

Anytime you add a new product, let's say you just get in a new style of earring, and you have 1000 units to sell, why don't you advertise it as "THE FIRST 50 CUSTOMERS TO BY PRODUCT X GET A FREE GIFT!" You can limit that depending on how many units you have to sell. If you only have 100 units, the first 5 get one free. At least it will sound more honest, and more ethical and I think it is better advertising than using the word matrix, since that word has been trashed in the media lately.

I see your point. I have been thinking of alternate ways to word and advertise. Its just when you talking baout it matrix is the easiest way to explain.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
How would it be fraud. Didn't you just tell me that you are going to limit your list to 50 people and you were going to cycle all of them?

Um....nope....that's not me.....that's someone else....read the post....

[uwantme]

Originally posted by concerned
ALSO, YOU SAY THAT YOU WILL REFUND MONEY WHEN THEY RETURN THEIR MERCHANDISE. WHAT IF SOMEONE THAT ALREADY CYCLED WANTS TO RETURN THEIR MERCHANDISE. ARE YOU GOING TO REQUIRE THAT THEY SEND BACK THE FREE PRIZE ALSO, OR ARE YOU GOING TO DENY THE RETURN BASED ON THE FACT THAT THEY ALREADY CYCLED.

I'M TRYING TO SAY THAT THERE MIGHT BE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT WOULD TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU LIKE THAT.

Well there will be limits to the refunds of course. I time period so to speak. Like refunds for the first 30 days.. Now the tjer refunds I was talking about is that yu said what if I couldnt clear off the lists. Well to be fair if someone was left on the list and I knew they wernet going to be able to cycle I would let them have a choice of getting a refund or not to be fair. All other orders would have the 30 day refund grace period. Doesnt this make sense?

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
I see your point. I have been thinking of alternate ways to word and advertise. Its just when you talking baout it matrix is the easiest way to explain.

Yeah, I was just trying to convince you that there are other ways to word your promotion that would make more people interested. My idea may be better in some respects, because you might have people rusing to your site much faster to try to be the first 50, and you might have larger rushes of business that way. Also, like I said, if you avoid the "matrix" word, given the bad publicity it has gotten recently, you might be better off.

[northstar5757]

The casino analogy is a valid one. Which is why Casino licenses are nearly impossible to obtain and that if you don't have one it is illegal. This is al;so why so many online betting companies are in costa rica and not the US/Canada.

[northstar5757]

Although probably the best example is the stock market.

[Firegod]

I agree with much of what you have to say UWANTME. I would think your idea would go much better if you would just open up a body jewelry site and offer your stuff at cheap prices.

Forget about the 50 people and the free gifts. Just sell great stuff and people will buy it. Try an affiliate program to get more advertising.

And, by the way. I have read nearly every eBook that I purchased. Many do have valuable information. I may not spend money for just the book, but I would purchase them for the resale rights so I can sell them to someone else. Some "legit" sites list eBooks for $35 each and don't even offer any gifts.

Tell me that no one ever buys them for their content.

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by watchdog
While matrix sites do not offer a prize drawing they offer the incentive of the matrix. Cycling off on a matrix list is left up to chance to decide. If you said that you offer a person their award WHEN they cycle, you would be presupposing that they will cycle, and that would be fraud if they didn't. Matrix sites are pretty good at avoiding that wording. Instead, they say, "You will receive your free item IF you cycle", or others say, "If enough customers join the lists, you will receive your prize." Whether or not the customer receives the prize depends on the unpredictable factor of future sign ups. Therefore, the matrix sites are offering a contest of chance, and they are now running the risk of being declared an illegal lottery by the courts since they require a customer to buy into the program. Read through this article by an attorney at Frost, Brown, and Todd. It is a good primer on lotteries and sweepstakes.

http://www.frostbrowntodd.com/practice_areas/pdfs/dont_take_a_chance_when_running_sweepstakes.pdf

Yes, but as long as the site remains open they are not committing fraud( if they say when you cycle). Even though the site may slow or even in some cases stop moving at all, the fact is that their statement is true until the site is no longer available.

[laidback]

All that is being talked about is the illegal lottery or illegal gambling site because it is against CA law.

What about online casinos?

Under the reasoning that a matrix site is gambling or lottery or whatever then As long as the matrix site is in Nevada or on a Indian reservation then it is legal right?

[MatrixWatch]

There is a difference between a lottery and an illegal lottery.