GENERAL: Why you should not be granted a refund...

[CurtXxX]

There is absolutely no reason why you should get your money back. Are you blind? Could you not read the TOS or read the fact that you were purchasing ebooks? What makes you think you deserve a refund? You don't. You bought the product - that is that...you are not entitled to anything else.

Say you bought a pop with one of those look under liners to possibly win a free pop. Would you open the pop, drink it, look under the liner...THEN, after you didn't win would you try and take the pop back? No...I didn't think so - use your head.

[tcb1969a]

You are absolutely right, Curt.....I agree.....100%

Which I have also said the same thing on here, which I believe was skipped around and not really answered.......

I believe Watch Dog did say that it will be irrelevant what the TOS or Refund policy states if the Matrix sites are deamed illegal....

And I am sure that is how he will respond.........

[MatrixWatch]

The two of you participated in a discussion at Matrix-Sites forum* where you were addressing the issue of PayPal freezing money. Someone shared a way to manipulate PayPal into giving the money back to the matrix sites, even though PayPal has policies against them. Peterdragin posted a message about how a big company like that can freeze funds and you, tcb1969a, said,

"Well, Peterdragin, PayPal has no right to these funds no matter what there TOS says. It is illegal to confiscate a person or business entities funds just because they violate your TOS. Therefore PayPal has no other choice but to release the funds for the simple fact, that it isn't there money... "

Then, CurtXXX said,

"Good point tcb...thats a good idea...but I don't know if threatening them will be enough..in any case - you should make the forms available for download so site owners can use them how they will."

I find it strange how matrix sites can deny refunds to their customers on the basis of their TOS on one hand, and then claim the transcendancy of the law over pay company's TOS with the other. By denying your customer's funds with an appeal to your TOS, you are doing the same thing you accuse the pay companies of doing.

* http://www.matrix-sites.net/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=230&s=

[tcb1969a]

Uh....no....Watch Dog you have missed the point....

PayPal did not earn the money so it is not there's to freeze. If they want to suspend a Matrix Owners account because of it being in violation of there TOS then that is their right, but they must release the funds to the Matrix Owner. They have no right to the funds what-so-ever. In fact you do realize they are being sued for just that fact................

[CurtXxX]

Exactly my friend...

Termination of paypal account = okay
Holding funds = not okay

I am not even a site owner but this upsets me how paypal is doing this.

[tcb1969a]

Yep....in fact.....PayPal has been freezing accounts for a lot longer than Matrix sites have been around. For which they have been sued numerous times...........hmm......Interesting, huh......

PayPal does what they want when they want. It is all about money to them and they don't care how they get it. This has been there business practice for as long as I can remember.

So it is not that they don't like Matrix sites, they just see it as an opportunity to freeze funds for their own gain.....

[Arzel]

There is one major flaw in your reasoning regarding PayPal or Paysystems, Ginix or any of the other merchants. You claim that it is not legal for them to freeze those funds and hold them.

What makes you think that those are your funds in the first place? Those merchants are protecting themselves from credit card chargebacks. They are doing what any sane business would do, and complain all you want it is not going to change, not for a new site, or a site operating what appears for all practices to be a Ponzi scheme. These companies know that if they give you the money immediately and suddenly get a large number of chargeback from the credit card companies it will be very difficult to get that money back from your website.

Look at it this way. Say you had a direct link with a credit card company, you started cycling people and paying out. It would be real smooth for a while because there would be no frozen funds to worry about, but after a while when the lists stop moving and the chargebacks start coming it the credit card would go straight against your company. Because you have been making payouts your business account would quickly become overdrawn and your whole site would go under.

There is only two ways to really avoid this. Either hold the money for a period of time such that you do not have to worry about chargebacks, or make sure you have enough initial working capital so that you are not dependent on a steady cash flow at all times. No reasonable business person would consider opening a business without at least a couple of months worth of capital at startup, but as we can see, most of these sites have no inital capital, and as soon as a problem occurs in the cash flow the site fails.

[tcb1969a]

Ok, first off if a Credit Card company did a charge back with a Matrix site that had them solely as a merchant, all the Matrix site would have to do is inform the Credit Card company that the customer received there merchandise via download. Then the chargeback would be avoided. Just because a chargeback has been issued against a company does not mean that the company gets charged a fee automatically. They have a chance to refute the charge back.

So your logic failed from the get go........

[Arzel]

You assume that the company is correct. What if the company did not deliver the goods as promised, but yet still claimed as much.

Companies will always try to protect themselves against unforseen liabilities. It is the inability of the matrix world to come to grip with this undeniable fact which has been a huge factor in the downfall of matrix sites.

[tcb1969a]

No actually I assume nothing, however this site and its members do assume a lot.

If a company can not dispute a charge back, then most company's in this country would go out of business.

[uwantme]

To go back to the beginning of this topic. I believe matrix sites should offer refunds within a certain time frame. For example you could ask for a refund within 14 days of your purchase, or maybe even 30. If they bought an actual tangilbe product from you it must be returned to you in the condition you sent it to them... If your just selling e-books lets be honest you arent losing any money by giving them away. Because you do not have to pay for each one you sell. So its not like your losing extra money from your pocket for each refund you give So you should set up some sort of refund time frame to allow refunds....

[Arzel]

You entirely missed the point of the last few posts.

If a matrix site had a direct link to a credit card company, as if they were there own merchant, they would have to treat their customers the same way that a merchant currently treats it's matrix customers.

You always need to have some sort of financial security to sucessfully run a business, and in this case it would mean delaying payouts until you were fairly positive that those chargebacks would not come back.

[uwantme]

you know Arzel, I couldnt resist this one. Thats an interesting signature you have:

Don't assume what you are trying to prove,
unless you are trying to prove you are a bonehead.


especially since nothing has been proven in this whole watchdog case and you and the rest of the pack sure do talk alot.

sorry couldnt resist......

[MysticX23]

ok...but back to original topic...should we be granted a refund if:

1) site closes down?
2) site is still "technicallly up", but not updated in months and owner doesn't respond to emails and there is a "guarantee" to recieive prize (in the case of bestdealsmatrix.com"

what do u think?

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by uwantme
you know Arzel, I couldnt resist this one. Thats an interesting signature you have:

Don't assume what you are trying to prove,
unless you are trying to prove you are a bonehead.


especially since nothing has been proven in this whole watchdog case and you and the rest of the pack sure do talk alot.

sorry couldnt resist......


Yes that is quite amuzing isn't it......

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by MysticX23
ok...but back to original topic...should we be granted a refund if:

1) site closes down?
2) site is still "technicallly up", but not updated in months and owner doesn't respond to emails and there is a "guarantee" to recieive prize (in the case of bestdealsmatrix.com"

what do u think?

1. No. If a business goes out of business, why would they require a refund.

2. Depends on exactly what the Guarantee entails. Most sites that have guarantees, have stipulations in them.