so i don't get whats the difference between...

[MysticX23]

i'm new here and i'm both a supporter and anti-matrix fan (cuz i got screwed by a site). i have been reading basically alot of posts here at matrixwatch.org as well as other matrix forums, but from this forum, i don't get whats the difference between a matrix site that has this promoition "buy ebook, get a slot free" and lets say another ad that says "buy 1 get _____ free" where the blank is another of the same item or another item.

I've read the thread about sweepstakes where you have to allow other people to join without paying...but "buy 1 get ____ free " isn't a sweepstakes and i don't see why the matrix is a "lottery" or is gambling. There is no "chance" that you will win. It's just an opportunity for you to get something extra, IF you would like. I mean, if you dont' want your free item, you don't have to take it.


What i'm trying to say is: Lets say i'm a seller of "stuff", and you buy something from me. I would like to give you an reward or opportunity to get something else, IF you would like, ie put you on a matrix list. This is solely your choice and nothing is forced onto you....and so i don't see how this is illegal....

...and another thing i wanna say is i have found a matrixsite (dont' wanna mention at the moment. but you guys prolly know) that stops a certain lists to grow by not allowing customers to buy ebooks. however, they have other lists opening up constantly. the lists that are closed are cycled by profits from those other lists that are opened up. if that continues, lists will eventually be cycled through wouldn't it? no list would get too long...

[mikv]

How do you figure that when that site opens another list to pay out on a previous list that ALL will get their product? That has to be the WORST remedy you can think of to cycle people. If they use money from one list to cycle another, then that new list NEVER moves. They will have to keep opening new lists and eventually they will crumble under their own weight. The logic that site is using is ludicrous. Actually they aren't using any logic with that remedy. What they are doing is setting themselves up for watchdog and the rest to focus on them. They are case in point what this site talks about. Eventually they will have so many lists and owe so much money, they won't be able to pay out. I suppose to remedy that they will open a whole different site like most these owners do because they think that is the quick fix. Well that might make the OWNER more money off the bat but it will do nothing to the people cycling. My suggestion..STAY AWAY FROM THAT SITE. They are NOT doing good business and they obviously have NO BUSINESS SENSE. They figure if they STAY OPEN that it will eventually work itself out. OR they figure they'll just close up shop and take people's money which is more likely. I find it funny that owners are scrambling to find a "better system" than the one they stole off of the site that turned them on to this whole matrix community in the first place. They keep changing the way they setup the lists and each one is getting closer and closer to being FLAT OUT ILLEGAL. That is why these systems DON'T WORK, because there is NO QUICK FIX once you are in over your head and if you don't AUTOCYCLE or put YOUR OWN MONEY BACK IN right from the start, you are doomed to failure.

[Talented Mr Rae]

Talk about being arrogant. At least this site is trying a new model of business!

This guy before was saying:

What i'm trying to say is: Lets say i'm a seller of "stuff", and you buy something from me. I would like to give you an reward or opportunity to get something else, IF you would like, ie put you on a matrix list. This is solely your choice and nothing is forced onto you....and so i don't see how this is illegal....

I agree with him. Positively and professionally answer his query, rather than just putting down every matrix site in existance just because you have had a bad experience!

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by mikv
because there is NO QUICK FIX once you are in over your head and if you don't AUTOCYCLE or put YOUR OWN MONEY BACK IN right from the start, you are doomed to failure.

sorry about my unclear explaination...but an autocycle is kinda what i'm talking about...lets say the owner takes about 50% of the profit for EVERY list and puts it in the autocycle pool...and whenever a lists gets to a length of 100(cycle time is 2), then the list is closed. the people who remain to cycle is cycled thru the autocycle pool until everyone is cycled. the pool will grow and cycle the closed list if other people buy...but i would think(emphasis on "think") that people would like this more because when a lists closes, the autocycling pool would be used to cycle them and no list would get too long...its just an idea..i think there is still a flaw somewhere in my thinking when you have too many lists open..but yea

[peterdragin]

The one factor that hurts all these great and not so great plans is that you STILL have to have bodies to fill up the lists to begin with.

With out sign ups the site will fail anyway, and the more sites people see fail the less will be willing to sign up.

With an over abundance of sites on the web now, we were seeing this before any of the lawsuit or pay processor problems.

There are still many people thinking about starting matrix sites even today.

[Arzel]

Without getting into a debate about the legality of such a site let me say that in theory that model of ending the lists at say 50 and then cycling out people does sound like it would work.

However, you must look at all aspects. I don't think it would work in principle because once you reach 50 on a list there would be no incentive to continue buying into the list. The people you are going to attract to this site are going to want a free gift, and no one will buy into a list once it reaches 50. I don't care what you are selling, it will just not happen. You will not be able to get any average person to buy into the list just to get the product, becuase once they realize that there are free gifts to be had they are going to want them as well.

The average person likes to think they got a good deal, and there is no way an average person is going to buy into a list without the possibility of the free gift if people before them are going to get a free gift based off their purchase.

[poorme]

NO strategy will help

[hurley9192]

mathmatically, it would be pretty much impossible to make a profit and auto cycle everyone on the list unless you had a 2 cycle matrix and your cost of sales was less than 50%, i.e. every product, you collected more than twice what you paid for it.

[MysticX23]

Arzel: once the list closes, another one will take its place to attract other people...

but in response to all other people and arzel, too...its just a thought, but if it doesn't work, i guess it doesn't..fair deal

[Talented Mr Rae]

Why does it need to be a cycle count of a whole number. How about entry is $10, return is $10.50, cycle rate of 1.1.

Therefore, only 10 out of 100 need to be autocycled out of the list rather than 50 :)

I know it still faces the common 'matrix problem', but I do think matrices are a good idea if they offer decent products - (something like mobile ringtones which if you get out of a mag, cost $1.50), the cycle rate is very low, and you are guarenteed a return.

This return doesn't even have to be huge, if you are selling a decent product, then the return could be for your money back! And so the site would actually be making money from selling its decent products for nothing :cool:

[Arzel]

I suppose you could create any cycle length that you would like, but that brings me back to an earlier point. What are you trying to acomplish? Are you really trying to start a business or are you just trying to set up some scheme to make money without a lot of work?

I will grant you that your 1.1 ratio would probably last quite a while before it colapsed, but it will still colapse, any distribution of wealth from one group of people to another without any wealth created is headed for failure.

[hurley9192]

yeah, you are still buying a $1.50 ring tone for $150 and then getting a plasma tv or something else. It still doesn't work unless you can buy the TV at a huge discount because you still have to buy the TV and try to cycle everyone. Not everyone can cycle on a matrix, which makes it just like a ponzi scheme when you base it on a first come first serve cycling basis.

[Talented Mr Rae]

I meant pay for a $1.50 ringtone, and you get back $1.50 - therefore you get a decent product for nothing :)

[tcb1969a]

Just out of curiosity Hurley, who in the world said everyone can cycle on a Matrix.......

[mikv]

Isn't that the basis for people buying in? The false hope a matrix site owner gives them that everyone will cycle? I would like to see if you put that on your site when it's open unless it already is, then I'd like to see you add it and see how many people purchase afterward.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by mikv
Isn't that the basis for people buying in? The false hope a matrix site owner gives them that everyone will cycle? I would like to see if you put that on your site when it's open unless it already is, then I'd like to see you add it and see how many people purchase afterward.

I'm a matrix owner, and I give no one false hope, I explain everything, but some people do not understand still for which they can ask me by emailing me and I will answer any question they have, plus no one is putting a gun to there head on my site to purchase anything......

There are some of us that are honest with our customers....

[mikv]

So are you saying that right now there is a disclaimer on your site that specifically says that "Not Everyone Will Cycle"? And of course you will have to be honest at some point, I think it's when you tell them they aren't gonna get their products or money back. That's the only time you'll get an honest answer out of a matrix site.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by mikv
So are you saying that right now there is a disclaimer on your site that specifically says that "Not Everyone Will Cycle"? And of course you will have to be honest at some point, I think it's when you tell them they aren't gonna get their products or money back. That's the only time you'll get an honest answer out of a matrix site.

I do not say those exact words, but it is along those lines.....

[uwantme]

Originally posted by mikv
So are you saying that right now there is a disclaimer on your site that specifically says that "Not Everyone Will Cycle"? And of course you will have to be honest at some point, I think it's when you tell them they aren't gonna get their products or money back. That's the only time you'll get an honest answer out of a matrix site.

I copied this directly from the user agreement of the site that Im a member of:

You consent that you understand that the free gifts we give away are based on sales and that if the sales are not met to qualify for the free gift then it will not be given, because of this no one is guaranteed the free gift.

It clearly states that if the sames arent made that the free gift will not be given and no one is guarenteed the free gift. This is also in the very first paragrahp of their user agreement not hidden somewhere on the site.....

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by uwantme
I copied this directly from the user agreement of the site that Im a member of:

You consent that you understand that the free gifts we give away are based on sales and that if the sales are not met to qualify for the free gift then it will not be given, because of this no one is guaranteed the free gift.

It clearly states that if the sames arent made that the free gift will not be given and no one is guarenteed the free gift. This is also in the very first paragrahp of their user agreement not hidden somewhere on the site.....

Yes, though, Watch Dog would say that their TOS will be irrelovent if the lawsuit proves that Matrix sites are illegal....