If no ebook is a matrix site illegal? [Archive]

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
If a Matrix site did not sell an ebook or other product wouyld it be illegal.

What I'm getting at is that we all know that nobody is payign the money for the ebooks. Everyone is paying for a spot int he matrix. Does this not cast the owners of matrix sites in a dark light? If they know they are breaking the law,but getting away with it on a technicality, how can they be trusted? Not to mention the fact that they are aware that most of their customers will never see their product?

Maybe I'm wrong here but can someone justify what they are doing?

Thats true that they are getting away with it on technicality, but that makes it legal. But there are sooo many loopholes in laws today that even they know they are bypassing it, I doubt they care. For example, if there was a law and a loophole that ONLY YOU saw, and you could make easy money from it, would you? I probably would.

I'm pretty sure that if they just sell "slots" instead of ebooks or products that it would be illegal, cuz then i'd be call a pyramid site.

How can they be trusted is your own judgement i suppose. If many reliable sources say they can and even the site owners put their money into the matrix line to help cycle people through when the lines are long, it might be a sign that they can be trusted (or not). Its hard to tell. it would be nice if they had to close down, that they put somewhere on the TOS that they would refund a percentage of your money back instead of running away with it.

Hope that answers some of ur questions.

northstar5757

July 9th, 2003, 01:51 PM

Thx for the response got me just before lunch.

I know there are many loopholes but I wouldn't participate in any scheme where I knew that I would be hurting many people (which is why ponzi schemes are illegal). Maybe I'm just a nice guy but I'd feel pretty guilty about doing it. I've talked to people personally who have lost college tuition because of ponzi schemes. And while they are in part to blame for their own gullibleness (word?) I think the owners should still bare a fair amount of responsibility.

uwantme

July 9th, 2003, 02:23 PM

there are some new sites that are breaking away from the e-book thing and selling actually tangible products. Instead they are selling clothes or jewelry for the same price or less or would pay at your local store and you still get your free matrux entry or gift.

So what do you think about sites like that.. since your not wasting your money on something you dont want or will use you are buying a tangible good you will want and will use and still getting your free gift.

hurley9192

July 9th, 2003, 02:50 PM

well, if they want to give away a plasma TV or whatever and make a list like this, then it would probably get close to being good.

However, the key is that they have to make some money as well.

Example...they sell T shirts for about the same price you would buy one in the store...$20 or so...

For every 20 people that pay in $20, they give away a $300 TV to the first one on the list that signs up.

That would probably be ok, but they would have to buy the shirts for less than $5 a piece just to break even. Plus, they would have to pay for shipping costs on shipping the tangible product.

The reason that the matrix sites are pretty much unethical is because the people are buying in for a spot in the matrix and not even using the ebook.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 04:00 PM

Not all Matrix sites sell ebooks. Some sell phone cards, others sell desktop wallpaper....

Further there are some ebooks worth what you pay for them.

Why must we keep going on the ebook thing....?

uwantme

July 9th, 2003, 04:26 PM

You know Im a matrix support but even I admit I think the e-book thing is a rip off. I personally would never have paid any of the amounts I did for e-books without the free gifts invovled. Or at least not the e-books that were being offered at the time. Thats why I think all matrices should go to selling actual products. Phonecards etc, though I see the desktop wallpaper just like the e-books it somehting you can make yourself or find millions of free ones on the internet already. In my opinion its probably not worth the price your are having to pay for it.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 04:34 PM

Well, there are desktop wallpaper out there that is being sold and are not free. They are unique and are sold as an artistic piece.

As far as eBooks go, I guess I'm an idiot, cause I have actually bought ebooks from company's and individuals that were not related to Matrix sites.....And I found them useful.....

Hmm....

uwantme

July 9th, 2003, 05:32 PM

I guess it just goes with the saying:

one mans trash is another mans treasure.

I just personally wished more matrix sites would offer tangible goods.

mikv

July 9th, 2003, 05:36 PM

Whether or not an ebook is "useful" is dependant on the person buying/using it. Just as in anything, something you don't find useful may make the next guy millions. I don't think it's a good idea for ebooks to be offered simply because the site owners don't give a "wide" variety. I see some BIG matrix sites that only offer the same 6 ebooks no matter what you buy or how many times you buy. For $30 you get the same 6 books. For $100,$500,$1000 you still get the same 6 books. This is where MOST sites lose focus. If you are truly in it to "satisfy" the customer like ALL sites claim, you would offer a wide range of "packages" depending on the amount spent. You have to at least TRY to not look shady. But the fact is, most site owners don't even have a business license let alone the knowledge it takes to run a successful business. Otherwise they would be selling the electronics or whatever right out instead of having to use the Matrix system.

I also have a question and I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask it. This may sound dumb but here it goes...Why do matrix sites NOT charge "SALES TAX"??
I assume that most owners do not comply with the rest of the state and federal laws when it comes to paying taxes on what they earn being that they are trying to manipulate the law by running a site like that. So how do they get around paying the government? I know the answer is probably "they just don't pay" but seriously, does watchdog bring this up when he's trying to get a site closed? Or are the sites protected against that?

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 05:45 PM

Internet sites are not required in most states to pay Sales tax.

But there is gift tax that has to be paid.

Also income tax is paid by the site owners.....

uwantme

July 9th, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by mikv

I also have a question and I'm not sure if this is the right forum to ask it. This may sound dumb but here it goes...Why do matrix sites NOT charge "SALES TAX"??
I assume that most owners do not comply with the rest of the state and federal laws when it comes to paying taxes on what they earn being that they are trying to manipulate the law by running a site like that. So how do they get around paying the government? I know the answer is probably "they just don't pay" but seriously, does watchdog bring this up when he's trying to get a site closed? Or are the sites protected against that?

I actually just answered some of this in another post. As many of you know I am getting ready to start my own matrix type site. I have went and obtained my business license and that is where your takes fall in. Your at least in the state I live in. First you pay intial start up type taxes, For example if you project your buiness will only make $15,000 its first year then its only $32, to get your license. It you project your business will make $50,000 your first year then its $54 to get your license. Then for each thousand more your less you make than your proposed plan you get add $1 per thousand or subtract a dollar. If most owners are smart they are already figuring the cost of sales tax with the prices they offer. At the end of the year when its tax time for businesses which begins in FEB and ends in May sole propiership owners which is what most matrix owners would be considered file their takes like normal but instead of filing a 1046 whatever it is you file like a 1046 a or b. Then you are taxed on a different percentage which is like 33% I believe. Or if you think you will end up oweing the government a high amount you can do your taxes in quarters and make a small payment each quarter. Its best to let a pro like h&r block do your taxes for you though if you do own a business like this and it is better for you to get a business license because you can write off alot of things if you have one. For example I will run my site from home obviously so anything I use to "run" it will considered a take write-off. Internet service, my computer, my desk, even any pencils or paper I use. Also you get to write off any advertising you buy, your hosting service, and programming or design. And because my office is considered part of my house I will get to write off my house payment as part of my office rent. Any site owner who doesnt have a license should get one, and find out about your taxes, a good lawyer to help is a plus too. When it comes tax time next time around and if my business is up and this place is still around I will have to let you guys know how it turns out.

Arzel

July 9th, 2003, 06:18 PM

You might want to double check the tax laws regarding what you can and cannot write off as a business expense. While it is true that you can write off the office space as an expense, you will not be able to write off your entire house payment. You will have to be very careful in the manner that you report those expenses. Generally you are required to have a room or rooms of your residence completely dedicated to your office, and then you are only allowed to write off that part of your house.

If you have a 2,000 sq ft house and use one bedroom for your office with about 250 sq ft of space you will only be able to write off that 12.5% of your expenses. The same goes with equipment and other office supplies that you plan on using for both office and personal use. Home businesses are one of the highest areas of IRS audits. But if you use H&R or some other tax service they should be able to help you determine what you can write off as a business expense.

uwantme

July 9th, 2003, 06:21 PM

Yeah thats why I mentioned h&r block.. I usually use them to do my taxes and I fgured since this will be my first year with my own buiness probably wouldnt be a good idea to stop using them now..LOL but my main piont is every site owner should check out your own tax laws and get a business license.. It may seem like a pain but trust me it will do way more good than harm

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 06:36 PM

actually, that would be a good idea.....it would make a site more "trustworthy" cuz they have registered and all that, not to mention, if they registered it, it would show people that it is a legal business, right?...none of that lottery/sweepstakes debate anymore.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 06:43 PM

A sole propritorship, does not have to register as a business to be legal and trust worthy.....

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 06:45 PM

true, but it WILL help...i'd think that customers would rather go to a registered business than one that is not,and it would show other people that the business is legal

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 06:52 PM

Yes....that is true....if a customer could see that the business is registered. But most customers would not bother looking to see if the site is a registered business......

hurley9192

July 9th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Being a CPA, I will interject...

You probably want to set something up so that you limit your liability...like an LLC. You have to pay $800 to the Franchise Tax Board in CA for this, but it's worth it. However, if the courts determine that you are acting grossly negligent then they could still go after your personal assets as well.

With regards to deductions, you can only write off those expenses for a home office if the office/room is solely used for that. If the IRS does an audit and you use the room for personal things, you could be in for a nice addition to your taxes...and as said above, you can only deduct the percentage.

You don't have to pay sales tax unless you sell something in the state you are incorporated or operating from. The site doesn't have to collect sales tax from their customers, neither does any business for that matter, but they do so that they don't get killed by paying the taxes themselves. Also, they should pay a gift tax for any prizes they cycle out.

With regards to paying taxes on their income, you will have self employment taxes to the feds, but overall, you could probably show a loss on the business because the cost of buying the prizes and additional expenses will probably be close to your gross income.

poorme

July 9th, 2003, 07:14 PM

true, but it WILL help...i'd think that customers would rather go to a registered business than one that is not,and it would show other people that the business is legal

Though the company is registered, there is still no garatee that that company won't disappear by night. However it is easier to trace the owner.

Ecashmatrix.com is a register company in Michigan. It just vanish from the internet for good withouth informing its prey.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 07:19 PM

Actually company's are easier to vanish from the face of the earth than individual owners......

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 07:55 PM

In response to the idea that selling tangable goods would make this legit, you are misunderstanding the basic law of business. You have to make a profit.

I posted this in another post, but I will repeat here.

First of all, the way that Matrix sites work, is that they sell e-books. Now, the e-books costs $0.00 each for the matrix site owner to sell (OK, maybe it costed $55 at one point, but after you sell 15,000, the cost becomes less than $.01). They sell them for $55 and put your name into the matrix, and the money goes towards costs. Out of the $55, maybe $35 of the money goes towards the prize, $17 towards expenses, and $3 goes to the matrix owner as profit. In this scenario, you would take the $35 and multiply it by the number of people it takes to cycle, and then you can determine what to give away. In this scenario, with a 20 person cycle, you can give away something worth $700, like the golf clubs that rsient.com gave away.

Now, let's do the same with T-shirts and try to give away the same $700 golf clubs.

You say that you will sell t-shirts for the same price that a store like WalMart sells t-shirts to be "LEGIT". OK, let's say that a customer will buy a t-shirt for $20. Now usually in retail, there is a 100% markup in merchandise, so it would cost the matrix owner $10 each, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and allow you to know that extremely secret wholesale warehouse that sells them for only $5. That leaves $15. Now, $8 goes towards expenses , and $2 profit for the owner. That leaves $5 to go towards the free prize. In order to get $700 for the same gift, you would have to have a cycle of 140 people for the first person to get the prize.

My question is:

Why would you even bother to do this with a cycle of 140 people? Wouldn't it be better to just sell t-shirts and keep the extra $5?

The other problem:

You are still only rewarding the first people to buy something. That is was makes it illegal. In order to make it legal, you have to give everybody an equal chance to win. You would have to have someone pick a name out of a hat or something like that.

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 07:55 PM

so if they are registered, and they disappear, can't we enlist the help of the goverment(police, fbi or whoever) to help us track them down?

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by concerned
In response to the idea that selling tangable goods would make this legit, you are misunderstanding the basic law of business. You have to make a profit.

I posted this in another post, but I will repeat here.

First of all, the way that Matrix sites work, is that they sell e-books. Now, the e-books costs $0.00 each for the matrix site owner to sell (OK, maybe it costed $55 at one point, but after you sell 15,000, the cost becomes less than $.01). They sell them for $55 and put your name into the matrix, and the money goes towards costs. Out of the $55, maybe $35 of the money goes towards the prize, $17 towards expenses, and $3 goes to the matrix owner as profit. In this scenario, you would take the $35 and multiply it by the number of people it takes to cycle, and then you can determine what to give away. In this scenario, with a 20 person cycle, you can give away something worth $700, like the golf clubs that rsient.com gave away.

Now, let's do the same with T-shirts and try to give away the same $700 golf clubs.

You say that you will sell t-shirts for the same price that a store like WalMart sells t-shirts to be "LEGIT". OK, let's say that a customer will buy a t-shirt for $20. Now usually in retail, there is a 100% markup in merchandise, so it would cost the matrix owner $10 each, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and allow you to know that extremely secret wholesale warehouse that sells them for only $5. That leaves $15. Now, $8 goes towards expenses , and $2 profit for the owner. That leaves $5 to go towards the free prize. In order to get $700 for the same gift, you would have to have a cycle of 140 people for the first person to get the prize.

My question is:

Why would you even bother to do this with a cycle of 140 people? Wouldn't it be better to just sell t-shirts and keep the extra $5?

The other problem:

You are still only rewarding the first people to buy something. That is was makes it illegal. In order to make it legal, you have to give everybody an equal chance to win. You would have to have someone pick a name out of a hat or something like that.

Your missing the whole point of a Matrix site. The free gifts are a advertising ploy to get people to come to the site by word of mouth from existing customers.

Advertising is also a Business ethic.....

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 08:06 PM

You are missing the whole point of advertising.

If you advertise that you are giving away a prize, you actually have to give it away, or else it is called "FALSE ADVERTISING", which is also against the law.

Therefor, you have to use some of the income from selling t-shirts to buy the prize. You would still have the matrix of 140 people cycle for each gift.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by concerned
You are missing the whole point of advertising.

If you advertise that you are giving away a prize, you actually have to give it away, or else it is called "FALSE ADVERTISING", which is also against the law.

Therefor, you have to use some of the income from selling t-shirts to buy the prize. You would still have the matrix of 140 people cycle for each gift.

And they would get a free gift when they cycle as long as new customers come to the site, that are not sabotaged by this site here.....hmm....

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by concerned
You are missing the whole point of advertising.

If you advertise that you are giving away a prize, you actually have to give it away, or else it is called "FALSE ADVERTISING", which is also against the law.

Therefor, you have to use some of the income from selling t-shirts to buy the prize. You would still have the matrix of 140 people cycle for each gift.

yea..but we are not advertiseing to give it away RIGHT NOW...its later whenever u cycle..thats what we are advertising. isn't that a legal advertisement?

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Yes it is legal advertisement.....

hurley9192

July 9th, 2003, 08:11 PM

that's where the matrix sites are going to have problems...it's much tougher to run a site where the difference in price is higher, like the T shirt vs. golf club issue.

The higher the discrepancy between the price paid in and what's received, the tougher it will be to shorten the list and help everyone.

The way this works, some people are going to be left out and receive nothing and that's where it crosses my line.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:13 PM

Most sites say this very clearly.

We are not selling a spot in the Matrix, we are only selling the item (i.e. ebook) and as a bonus we will put your name in the Matrix list for free.

Anyways, it is something along those lines.

MysticX23

July 9th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by hurley9192
that's where the matrix sites are going to have problems...it's much tougher to run a site where the difference in price is higher, like the T shirt vs. golf club issue.

The higher the discrepancy between the price paid in and what's received, the tougher it will be to shorten the list and help everyone.

The way this works, some people are going to be left out and receive nothing and that's where it crosses my line.

well they got what they paid for ...as for the free gift (even tho its the free gift they want)...if its not their turn, its simply not their turn..be happy with an ebook!

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by MysticX23
well they got what they paid for ...as for the free gift (even tho its the free gift they want)...if its not their turn, its simply not their turn..be happy with an ebook!

The way matrix sites work, is that you don't know what ebook you are getting. If you say that it is legit, wouldn't you have to be selling just ebooks with an added bonus as a prize? If that is so, then why can't I choose the title of the ebook? I am stuck with whatever you give me. That is not how people shop. If I sold cars, and promised a free prize in the same format as a matrix site, would you do it like that.

Example:

I sell cars, and with each purchase of the car, you will be put into a matrix for a new house. The price of the car is $25,000.

You don't get to see the car, but have to make the purchase. After you make the purchase, I send you a pinto. According to you, when you don't get the house, you have to be happy with your $25,000 pinto.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by concerned
The way matrix sites work, is that you don't know what ebook you are getting. If you say that it is legit, wouldn't you have to be selling just ebooks with an added bonus as a prize? If that is so, then why can't I choose the title of the ebook? I am stuck with whatever you give me. That is not how people shop. If I sold cars, and promised a free prize in the same format as a matrix site, would you do it like that.

Example:

I sell cars, and with each purchase of the car, you will be put into a matrix for a new house. The price of the car is $25,000.

You don't get to see the car, but have to make the purchase. After you make the purchase, I send you a pinto. According to you, when tou don't get the house, you have to be happy with your $25,000 pinto.

Well I don't know what site you have been going to but my sites you can pick what you want and then you are entered into the matrix list for that item for free.

mikv

July 9th, 2003, 08:31 PM

Nice way to put it.

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well I don't know what site you have been going to but my sites you can pick what you want and then you are entered into the matrix list for that item for free.

You may be in the minority, but most sites just give you the same ebook.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by concerned
You may be in the minority, but most sites just give you the same ebook.

Well I'm not sure most sites would be the correct way to phrase it, but there are some that do not do it right.......

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well I'm not sure most sites would be the correct way to phrase it, but there are some that do not do it right.......

You are right, I actually don't know about most sites, since I am smart enough to keep my money in my pocket instead of spending it on a proven scam.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by concerned
You are right, I actually don't know about most sites, since I am smart enough to keep my money in my pocket instead of spending it on a proven scam.

If it is a proven scam, then why am I making money as a Matrix customer.....

Oh yea, that's right I have inside information.......That was sarcasm.....

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
If it is a proven scam, then why am I making money as a Matrix customer.....

Oh yea, that's right I have inside information.......That was sarcasm.....

If it ISN'T a proven scam, then why isn't EVERYBODY that is buying into a matrix making money?

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by concerned
If it ISN'T a proven scam, then why isn't EVERYBODY that is buying into a matrix making money?

Because they haven't cycled yet........

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Because they haven't cycled yet........

What you are saying is that even after a site closes down, they can still cycle? If not everyone cycles, then there is something fishy don't you think? But in order to cycle, you always have to have someone under you that hasn't cycled. To prove that it is a scam takes basic math skills.

Number on list Number needed to cycle
1 5
2 10
.
.
.
50 250
100 500
1000 5000
5000 25000

Where does it end so that everyone cycles? If you can't follow the math, maybe you should go back to kindergarden. (this was not aimed at you personally tcb1969a, but to anybody that doesn't see that there are always people who will get scammed)

I don't doubt that some matrix owners are 100% honest good people. It isn't that all of them are trying to scam people. It is just that the math doesn't work out in favor of anybody but the matrix owner and a few people that are at the top.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by concerned
What you are saying is that even after a site closes down, they can still cycle? If not everyone cycles, then there is something fishy don't you think? But in order to cycle, you always have to have someone under you that hasn't cycled. To prove that it is a scam takes basic math skills.

Number on list Number needed to cycle
1 5
2 10
.
.
.
50 250
100 500
1000 5000
5000 25000

Where does it end so that everyone cycles? If you can't follow the math, maybe you should go back to kindergarden. (this was not aimed at you personally tcb1969a, but to anybody that doesn't see that there are always people who will get scammed)

I don't doubt that some matrix owners are 100% honest good people. It isn't that all of them are trying to scam people. It is just that the math doesn't work out in favor of anybody but the matrix owner and a few people that are at the top.

And what site says everyone will cycle?

Also I was meaning that they haven't cycled on sites that are up and running. Obviously they won't cycle if the site closes down.....

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
And what site says everyone will cycle?

Also I was meaning that they haven't cycled on sites that are up and running. Obviously they won't cycle if the site closes down.....

LISTEN

FOR YOU TO PROVE THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, EVERYONE WOULD CYCLE. IF EVERYONE DOES NOT CYCLE, THEN IT COULD BE A SCAM. I HAVE MATH ON MY SIDE SAYING IT IS A SCAM, WHAT DO YOU HAVE ON YOUR SIDE?

A LINE OMMITED ON A WEBSITE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO SAY

NOT EVERYONE WILL CYCLE

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by concerned
LISTEN

FOR YOU TO PROVE THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, EVERYONE WOULD CYCLE. IF EVERYONE DOES NOT CYCLE, THEN IT COULD BE A SCAM.

Um....nope.....most sites clearly say that a customer will cycle as long as new customers join.....Though they do not guarantee that the customer will cycle, since they can not guarantee that the site will get new customers forever......

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Um....nope.....most sites clearly say that a customer will cycle as long as new customers join.....Though they do not guarantee that the customer will cycle, since they can not guarantee that the site will get new customers forever......

I had edited my quote while you were responding. Why don't you read it again.

ANYWAY

JUST BECAUSE A SITE SAYS THAT PEOPLE WON'T CYCLE ISN'T PROOF ENOUGH. I CAN SAY THAT YOU WILL ONLY CYCLE IF THE SKY TURNS GREEN. THAT STILL DOESN'T PROVE THAT IT IS A SCAM. IN FACT THEY ONLY SAY THAT YOU WON'T CYCLE UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE IS A CUSTOMER BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS A SCAM.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by concerned
I had edited my quote while you were responding. Why don't you read it again.

ANYWAY

JUST BECAUSE A SITE SAYS THAT PEOPLE WON'T CYCLE ISN'T PROOF ENOUGH. I CAN SAY THAT YOU WILL ONLY CYCLE IF THE SKY TURNS GREEN. THAT STILL DOESN'T PROVE THAT IT IS A SCAM. IN FACT THEY ONLY SAY THAT YOU WON'T CYCLE UNLESS SOMEONE ELSE IS A CUSTOMER BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS A SCAM.

Um....no....they don't say that because they know it is a scam, they say it cause it is true.....

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Um....no....they don't say that because they know it is a scam, they say it cause it is true.....

I'm still waiting for the proof that a matrix is not a scam. Once you show the world the actual PROOF, then the whole argument will end.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by concerned
I'm still waiting for the proof that a matrix is not a scam. Once you show the world the actual PROOF, then the whole argument will end.

It is not my place to prove it is not a scam......That is how the law is. The burden of proof lies on the accuser.......

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
It is not my place to prove it is not a scam......That is how the law is. The burden of proof lies on the accuser.......

If you are a matrix owner, and are getting sued, the prosecution would use the MATH that I used. After that, the defendant would have to prove that what the prosecution is saying is false. If they cannot prove that, then they will be found guilty.

I have already layed out the proof. My question is:

WHAT PROOF DOES ANYBODY HAVE THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, GIVEN THE MATHEMATICAL PROOF THAT IT IS A SCAM.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by concerned
If you are a matrix owner, and are getting sued, the prosecution would use the MATH that I used. After that, the defendant would have to prove that what the prosecution is saying is false. If they cannot prove that, then they will be found guilty.

I have already layed out the proof. My question is:

WHAT PROOF DOES ANYBODY HAVE THAT IT IS NOT A SCAM, GIVEN THE MATHEMATICAL PROOF THAT IT IS A SCAM.

Very well, go find my other posts and you will find that I have answered this question. I refuse to repeat myself, for it will do no good since most people on here already have their mind made up, and no amount of convincing on my part will change that.....

concerned

July 9th, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Very well, go find my other posts and you will find that I have answered this question. I refuse to repeat myself, for it will do no good since most people on here already have their mind made up, and no amount of convincing on my part will change that.....

CAN YOU TELL ME MORE OR LESS WHERE I CAN FIND IT? I'D LIKE TO READ IT.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by concerned
CAN YOU TELL ME MORE OR LESS WHERE I CAN FIND IT? I'D LIKE TO READ IT.

No I don't remember, but if you read the posts you will see where I as well as others have made very good points as to why it is not a scam.....

Arzel

July 9th, 2003, 11:09 PM

I have yet to see anyone show definite proof that a matrix site is not a scam.

1. Most matrix sites show only the free gift, and not the ebook or whatever other item they are selling until you actually click on the free item you wish to buy.

2. The TOS or FAQ from just about every site implies that everyone will cycle, just that they need to wait a little. And if that is not misleading I don't know what it.

3. I have yet to see any matrix site advertise their e-books anywhere.

4. All sites encourage customers to tell friends and other people to join and buy into the lists to make the them move faster. None of the sites say "Tell your friends about our great e-books".

5. The testimonials on various sites state only that this program works, look at the picture of me with my PS2. I have yet to see a testimonial stating that the customer was really happy with the ebook.

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Arzel
I have yet to see anyone show definite proof that a matrix site is not a scam.

1. Most matrix sites show only the free gift, and not the ebook or whatever other item they are selling until you actually click on the free item you wish to buy.

2. The TOS or FAQ from just about every site implies that everyone will cycle, just that they need to wait a little. And if that is not misleading I don't know what it.

3. I have yet to see any matrix site advertise their e-books anywhere.

4. All sites encourage customers to tell friends and other people to join and buy into the lists to make the them move faster. None of the sites say "Tell your friends about our great e-books".

5. The testimonials on various sites state only that this program works, look at the picture of me with my PS2. I have yet to see a testimonial stating that the customer was really happy with the ebook.

1. You haven't been to my site then.....

2. Most sites I know of says you will cycle eventually, though a deffinate time frame can not be guaranteed...That is the truth, not misleading.

3. Still haven't seen my sites....

4. Why would they, it is advertisement.....

5. Because it is about getting things for free.....

There I believe that answers that.....

Arzel

July 9th, 2003, 11:49 PM

1. Have been to your sites, 1 maybe 1 and a half out of 3 directly list the token product and not the gift.

2. It is misleading, because not everyone will be able to cycle on your sites.

3. Outside of the site, once you are in the site advertising the site is pretty meaningless.

4. They are advertising the gift not the ebook.

5. Then what is so great about the ebook?

tcb1969a

July 9th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Arzel
1. Have been to your sites, 1 maybe 1 and a half out of 3 directly list the token product and not the gift.

2. It is misleading, because not everyone will be able to cycle on your sites.

3. Outside of the site, once you are in the site advertising the site is pretty meaningless.

4. They are advertising the gift not the ebook.

5. Then what is so great about the ebook?

You seem to be missing the point of a matrix site, it is advertising the free gifts that gets people to your site, further they are explained how things work, and it is there free will whether or not they join or not. No one is making them join.....

You know I was once a Matrix customer and still am. Way before I became a Matrix owner. And I researched the matrix idea, and did my homework, and still purchased the ebooks therfore entering into a matrix for the free item. And I still do to this day......I am on several lists.....hmm .....I wonder why.....

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 12:57 AM

so WHAT if not everyone will cycle. it was free anyways right? thats how the customers should think. the gift is free and if you won't get it cuz not enuf people sign up, you can't get it. but you got what you paid for. hehe

tcb1969a

July 10th, 2003, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by MysticX23
so WHAT if not everyone will cycle. it was free anyways right? thats how the customers should think. the gift is free and if you won't get it cuz not enuf people sign up, you can't get it. but you got what you paid for. hehe

Yep, exactly, as most sites state that the person is purchasing the item (ebook) and not the spot in the Matrix. That by purchasing the item (ebook) they get a free spot in the matrix....

hurley9192

July 10th, 2003, 12:58 PM

yeah, but no one will pay $150 for an ebook if they are not going to cycle and get a free plasma tv...it's the gamble that they eventually will get a free tv or whatever.

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by hurley9192
yeah, but no one will pay $150 for an ebook if they are not going to cycle and get a free plasma tv...it's the gamble that they eventually will get a free tv or whatever.

again, this is a free country, and its not up to YOU to say whether anyone will buy and ebook for 150 dollars. otherwise this country would be run under a dictatorship or communism. i've seen coke cans sold for more than you can imagine on ebay as well as junk being bought from garages. do you think a piece of rock (not as in diamonds,etc) could be worth 30000? or more? yea, if you have a petrified fossil...to me, that might be absurd, but its not my choice whether people wanna buy it for a huge amount of price.

matrixfriendly

July 10th, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by hurley9192
yeah, but no one will pay $150 for an ebook if they are not going to cycle and get a free plasma tv...it's the gamble that they eventually will get a free tv or whatever.

We cannot say what the customer is thinking. We can say however that is not how it is explained on the sites, via email, or via phone. They know they are buying the product(ebooks etc..)and that is all they are guaranteed.

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by matrixfriendly
We cannot say what the customer is thinking. We can say however that is not how it is explained on the sites, via email, or via phone. They know they are buying the product(ebooks etc..)and that is all they are guaranteed.

right on!

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 02:36 PM

This is a quote from Arzel

5. The testimonials on various sites state only that this program works, look at the picture of me with my PS2. I have yet to see a testimonial stating that the customer was really happy with the ebook.

Here is the response

Originally posted by tcb1969a

5. Because it is about getting things for free.....

I thought the matrix sites were about advertising to get to your sites to buy ebooks. Right here you state that it is about getting free stuff. Why do you change your position everytime the questions back you into a corner?

Is it about advertising, or getting expensive stuff for cheap by scamming other people out of their money?

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 02:59 PM

its about everything combined together without the "scam". :)

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by MysticX23
its about everything combined together without the "scam". :)

If it is everything combined together then it would also be about painting the sky green.

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 03:31 PM

uh huh....:confused:

northstar5757

July 10th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Hi guys,

Thanks for the responses looks like this topic was taken off. anwyays I'd just like to trhough my two cents in. I know that none of the matrix oweners are gonna directly admit that they are selling a place in the matrix (for legal reasons).

But lets just be honest for a second. We all know what these sites are selling and it is not ring tones or ebooks. The sites did not start up to sell ebooks. The sites were made to sell matrix spots. The actual product you pay for is just to get past legalities.

Now for my question. With this in mind I can only see two explainations for oweners of Matrix sites.

1. They know what they are doing is wrong (dishonest as I mentioned earlier).

or what I am begining to notice

2. They believe that ponzi schemes should not be illegal as they see nothing wrong with them and are just finding another way to do it.

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 03:37 PM

northstar5757

July 10th, 2003, 03:39 PM

Please igore all the spelling mistake lol

ei, Owners and throw. I'll have to pay more attention to posting while I am working.

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
Hi guys,

Thanks for the responses looks like this topic was taken off. anwyays I'd just like to trhough my two cents in. I know that none of the matrix oweners are gonna directly admit that they are selling a place in the matrix (for legal reasons).

But lets just be honest for a second. We all know what these sites are selling and it is not ring tones or ebooks. The sites did not start up to sell ebooks. The sites were made to sell matrix spots. The actual product you pay for is just to get past legalities.

Now for my question. With this in mind I can only see two explainations for oweners of Matrix sites.

1. They know what they are doing is wrong (dishonest as I mentioned earlier).

or what I am begining to notice

2. They believe that ponzi schemes should not be illegal as they see nothing wrong with them and are just finding another way to do it.

well said for the first part...legal loopholes allow them to do what they do.

they probably kno somewhere that it is wrong and they can model part of their business on the ponzi scheme and legal...but i can find a few reason why they do this:

1) easy way to make money
2) greedy(human nature and i can't believe everyone isn't a bit greedy..and if ur not greedy ever in ur life, i admire you and have lots of respect for you)
3) yes, it could be morally wrong and unethnical..but life isn't fair..
4) about number 3, if life was fair, then it would be communism

there are prolly other issues about morally wrong/right in the world that are more important than this, such as child labor in asia,etc...and its still going on. so what i'm saying is i guess that morals don't count much when it comes to the law..i wish it was sometimes, but it isn't.

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by MysticX23
well said for the first part...legal loopholes allow them to do what they do.

they probably kno somewhere that it is wrong and they can model part of their business on the ponzi scheme and legal...but i can find a few reason why they do this:

1) easy way to make money
2) greedy(human nature and i can't believe everyone isn't a bit greedy..and if ur not greedy ever in ur life, i admire you and have lots of respect for you)
3) yes, it could be morally wrong and unethnical..but life isn't fair..
4) about number 3, if life was fair, then it would be communism

there are prolly other issues about morally wrong/right in the world that are more important than this, such as child labor in asia,etc...and its still going on. so what i'm saying is i guess that morals don't count much when it comes to the law..i wish it was sometimes, but it isn't.

Did you jump to the other side? All of your arguments (1-4) are the reasons that this is illegal.

According to what you said how about this.

Maybe I'm gready. If I rob a bank, it is legal because it is human nature.

BY THE WAY, IT IS NOT LEGAL LOOPHOLES ALLOWING THEM TO DO WHAT THEY DO, IT IS NOT GETTING CAUGHT YET ALLOWING THEM TO DO WHAT THEY DO!!!

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 03:52 PM

oh..i'm mixed
no sides yet...just arguing for both sides until i find one to jump to..but no one, nor myself have been able to make me decide yet...

..i like it alot, but i see flaws, but i don't wanna see it go away, i'm making money from them...but i feel sorry for the people at the end of the lists and i got screwed by bestdealsmatrix, ...so you can see, i'm neutral. for both sides, i try to find an arguement that is reasonable and relavent

tcb1969a

July 10th, 2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by concerned
Did you jump to the other side? All of your arguments (1-4) are the reasons that this is illegal.

According to what you said how about this.

Maybe I'm gready. If I rob a bank, it is legal because it is human nature.

BY THE WAY, IT IS NOT LEGAL LOOPHOLES ALLOWING THEM TO DO WHAT THEY DO, IT IS NOT GETTING CAUGHT YET ALLOWING THEM TO DO WHAT THEY DO!!!

Well, it looks like I missed out on a interesting debate. Sorry I was gone from this debate, but I was collecting my Employee of the Month award from my Real job, as some state matrix owners do not have. Sarcasm aside........

Robbing a bank is illegal.....Nothing in the law states that Matrix sites are illegal, and until it does, you don't have a leg to stand on.....

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well, it looks like I missed out on a interesting debate. Sorry I was gone from this debate, but I was collecting my Employee of the Month award from my Real job, as some state matrix owners do not have. Sarcasm aside........

Robbing a bank is illegal.....Nothing in the law states that Matrix sites are illegal, and until it does, you don't have a leg to stand on.....

GO READ THE THREAD

i found the solution to end all

WE ARE HAVING A SIMILAR ARGUMENT THERE. I POSTED THE DEFINITION OF PONZI SCHEME, AND THEN A LINK TO THE FTC SITE WHERE A PONZI SCHEME IS DEFINED. IF YOU ARE THE LEAST BIT OBJECTIVE, YOU WILL SEE THAT THEY ARE ALREADY DEFINED AS ILLEGAL.

tcb1969a

July 10th, 2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by concerned
GO READ THE THREAD

i found the solution to end all

WE ARE HAVING A SIMILAR ARGUMENT THERE. I POSTED THE DEFINITION OF PONZI SCHEME, AND THEN A LINK TO THE FTC SITE WHERE A PONZI SCHEME IS DEFINED. IF YOU ARE THE LEAST BIT OBJECTIVE, YOU WILL SEE THAT THEY ARE ALREADY DEFINED AS ILLEGAL.

I have already read the definition of a Ponzi scheme probably long before you think I have, and came to the conclusion that a Matrix site is not a Ponzi scheme............

concerned

July 10th, 2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well, it looks like I missed out on a interesting debate. Sorry I was gone from this debate, but I was collecting my Employee of the Month award from my Real job, as some state matrix owners do not have. Sarcasm aside........

Robbing a bank is illegal.....Nothing in the law states that Matrix sites are illegal, and until it does, you don't have a leg to stand on.....

BY THE WAY, WHEN THE COURTS DEFINE A MATRIX SITE AS JUST ANOTHER PONZI SCHEME AND THE DEBATE THAT THEY ARE ILLEGAL, ARE YOU GOING TO CLOSE YOUR SITE AND REFUND EVERYBODY, OR ARE YOU GOING TO CONTINUE TO CHEAT PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR MONEY UNTIL YOU GET CAUGHT?

tcb1969a

July 10th, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by concerned
BY THE WAY, WHEN THE COURTS DEFINE A MATRIX SITE AS JUST ANOTHER PONZI SCHEME AND THE DEBATE THAT THEY ARE ILLEGAL, ARE YOU GOING TO CLOSE YOUR SITE AND REFUND EVERYBODY, OR ARE YOU GOING TO CONTINUE TO CHEAT PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR MONEY UNTIL YOU GET CAUGHT?

First off I am not cheating anyone, which I take offence to...

Secondly if the courts decide that a Matrix site is illegal, then I will have no choice but to refund my customers. For I will follow the will of the court.

MysticX23

July 10th, 2003, 05:29 PM

well said. if the courts say something, you should follow it cuz its the law..

..ur a good citizen tcb. :cool:

mikv

July 10th, 2003, 11:07 PM

waiting for the courts to spell out that it's illegal will be too late. Once it's deemed illegal, all the sites that are up will not have the chance to close and disappear because most sites are already being looked at and there is a "master list" already in circulation. It would be wise to make sure you are NOT on that list BEFORE you try to comply AFTER the judgement.

uwantme

July 10th, 2003, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by mikv
waiting for the courts to spell out that it's illegal will be too late. Once it's deemed illegal, all the sites that are up will not have the chance to close and disappear because most sites are already being looked at and there is a "master list" already in circulation. It would be wise to make sure you are NOT on that list BEFORE you try to comply AFTER the judgement.

LOL, LOL, LOL..... Hold on trying to catch my breath.. wow this is almost too much..

First of all if a judge in CA would deem it illegal then its still only illegal in CA. Each state has to past a law against it in order for all sites to be affected.

Second if the state you are in declares it illegal they do not come to your house the next second after the verdict to arrest you. The Law does give businesses like this a probation period to close up shop.. Most Attorney Generals will actually try contacting you first to let you know the site has been deemed illegal and give you a chance to close it.. You need to do more research. I already have and found all this information on government pages.

Third... Oh my not a master list... Please if there is a list at all going aroundit is only by the pound. Not the authorities. If the police, or whoever had a secret list of sites going around for wahtever reason you certianly wouldnt know about it and neither would anyone else. They wouldnt want you to know and risj you closing up shop early. If the puppy pound has this so called list big deal.. I can make up a list too, its not hard and it isnt going to accomplish anything.

And you comment about not being on the list after the judgment, you dont know how its going to turn out. I honestly dont think Tims going to win and if he does its only because shelby is being dumb by not getting a lawyer and trying to defend himself. Then once again even if he does win thats only for CA not for the other 50 states or any off shore ran companies.. Sorry, cant win them all.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:17 AM

there is one thing I am still not clear about...

If a site sold a spot directly into the matrix would that be illegal?

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 12:25 AM

According the law I believe the answer is yes, though Im not exactly sure why... to be honest. I think it has to do with not having anything to show for your money.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:27 AM

so all these people who are selling goods at ridicuously high prices are just doing so to try and get a ponzi scheme legal? This doesn't sound very good for the majority of matrix owners. Looks like they are just trying to find another way to run this scam.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 12:35 AM

Your not saying anything that hasnt been said over 100x before.
I have even said thats why I think all matrix sites should sell tangible products that actually have a fair market value that consumers would buy even with no free gift invovled. The ones that do this will be the sucessful ones. Other sites will continue to have problems and controversy until they can somehow prove the value of the e-books they are selling to everyone.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:43 AM

So how can people even defend these matrix sites?

With the exception of the site that you mentioned it seems that at least 95% of the matrix sites out there are illegal, or at leats should be.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by northstar5757
So how can people even defend these matrix sites?

With the exception of the site that you mentioned it seems that at least 95% of the matrix sites out there are illegal, or at leats should be.

unfortunatly your right.. Thats why you only see me defend the one site and maybe a few others, not all of them. I still believe most sites have pretty good TOSs and they do explain how the system works so I dont see it as people getting ripped off if they still decide to join. And on the other hand there are a few horrible sites out there that justice should be served against.. I just dont see where its any of our places to decide that for anyone..

Arzel

July 11th, 2003, 12:48 AM

A Ponzi scheme is defined as any scheme where by current investors are paid by future investors, a peter pays paul type of arangement.

A matrix is not illegal so long as customers buy the product for the product itself. Once it is determined that the customers are buying the product for the only purpose of entering the investment matrix it becomes a Ponzi scheme. It does not matter what is sold as the product, if the only purpose of purchase is entry into the matrix/investment list.

You can debate this until the end of time, but the fact remains that the vast majority of matrix sites will be ruled ponzi schemes when this is all over. The purpose of the lawsuit as an illegal lottery, is that under CA law this type of investment falls under the laws regarding illegal lotteries.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:50 AM

So why isn't watch dog sueing for EZexpo for it being an illegal ponzi scheme? I'm guessing they wouldn't have much trouble doing it. Or does sueing for an illegal loterry result in more restitution?

Just seems weired to me that they would focus on that aspect.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Arzel
A Ponzi scheme is defined as any scheme where by current investors are paid by future investors, a peter pays paul type of arangement.

A matrix is not illegal so long as customers buy the product for the product itself. Once it is determined that the customers are buying the product for the only purpose of entering the investment matrix it becomes a Ponzi scheme. It does not matter what is sold as the product, if the only purpose of purchase is entry into the matrix/investment list.

You can debate this until the end of time, but the fact remains that the vast majority of matrix sites will be ruled ponzi schemes when this is all over. The purpose of the lawsuit as an illegal lottery, is that under CA law this type of investment falls under the laws regarding illegal lotteries.

I understand this... thats why I love the TOS on the site im a member of. Here we go again it states:

You are confirming you understand that you only bought our jewelry,e-books,and programs and not the free gift. You are also stating that the free gift is not why you purchased the jewelry,e-books, and/or programs. You agree you purchased the jewelry,e-books, and/or programs for their value and the fact they offer you a return on your investment in them and they are worth the price you payed for them. Purchasing any of our programs, jewelry, or e-books for the sole purpose of attaining the free gift is prohibited, you must be making the purchase because you want and understand the value of the jewelry,e-books, and programs themselves, and not the free gift.

If i am not mistaken I believe this takes the liability away from the site owner and places it on the customer. I also know the one site I defend is uniue in the matrix community. However I dont think it will be to long before other sites begin to realize this and start changing the way they do things too.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by northstar5757
So why isn't watch dog sueing for EZexpo for it being an illegal ponzi scheme? I'm guessing they wouldn't have much trouble doing it. Or does sueing for an illegal loterry result in more restitution?

Just seems weired to me that they would focus on that aspect.

because you are not buying straight into the matrix and there are products invovled. This would be even harder to prove as a ponzi than the illegal lotterybecause you have to prove the customers didnt buy the product for the product itself. I beieve watchdog posted somewhere they thought they had a better chance of winning with the illegal lottery suit because all they had to prove was the chance involved or something to that extent.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:58 AM

come to think of it I agree.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:01 AM

But wouldn't the illegal lottery accusation still apply to a site regardless of how high of quality the product being sold was? I.E. the jewlery site would be violating this rule.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 01:19 AM

I dont think so, thats where all the arguments come in about the TOSs and things. I personally dont see how a site could be considered an illegal lottery. This is what watchdog saysIf you are offering a gift program, be it a prize drawing, matrix list, etc., you must allow people the opportunity to join the list without having to pay anything. That means that if you are running a 25-person list matrix for a Play Station 2, you need to offer people a spot on that list without requiring them to purchase anything. However, the matrix sites continue to violate this law.

I dont personally see how this makes it an illegal lottery if you dont offer a free spot without having to make a pruchase but this was my reply to his statement:

Nice post however I addressed this to you under my topic answer this one to which you didnt reply to my argument so I will post it here:

I said:

have thought of a real life example to support what Im saying.

I live on the east coast and we have Subways. You know a restaruant. When you buy a sub from them they will give you a subway card. Then every time you buy a 12" sub you get a sticker for your card. when you get 8 stickers on your card you get a free sub.

So in order to get your free gift(i.e. the sub) you must buy a sub and then continue to buy subs until the required sales are met.

This is the same scenerio played out by a nation wide franchise. If you dont buy enough subs you dont get the free sub. So does that mean Subway has been running an illegal lottery for years, all across the nation?

Watchdog said:
It is not the same thing because Subway is not entering the customer's name into a lottery. Subway it just offering a "baker's dozen" deal on their sandwiches. In the MSNBC article, my attorney talks about the same situation.

"Let’s say it’s a haircut place," said Wilens. "If you get 10 haircuts, the 10th is free. There’s nothing illegal about that. But suppose in addition, we take everybody’s (name), throw it into a bin, and a person wins a trip to Hawaii. That’s illegal. Offering a chance to win a prize even though you have provided a service is a lottery” under California state law."

I said:
What you just said makes no sense watchdog.

So your saying that all matrices site owners have to do is say after you buy your item we will add your name to the list only if you want us to and then its not illegal? Because we are not just throwing names into a bin anymore, only the ones who want to participate- so the ones who are getting the haircuts, subs etc. Because the same basis is still there. To get a free haircut ten have to be bought first. So the sales have to be met to get that haircut just like the sales have to be met on a matrix site.

So yeah, basically if owners just ask first "hey do you want your name added to the list" then add it if they want, dont add it if they dont want, then everythings okay?

Watchdog said:
Matrix sites are designed to make money. If you run them legally, no money can possibly be made. Yes, they resemble a pyramid or ponzi, but the illegal lottery aspect is a more straightforward and conclusive case. It doesn't matter if it is the customer's choice or not to enter the matrix. The issue is whether or not the customer had to buy something in order to enter the matrix list. If an e-book or a t-shirt had to be purchased so that the person's name could be put on a list, then the site runs the risk of violating state laws concerning illegal lotteries.

I said:

Sorry watchdog but your still not making sense and it doesnt explain why its okay then to buy 10 haircuts to get one free because they are still having to buy something. Lots of somethings in fact, but not to buy another tangilble item and after the required sales are met to get one free.

Also ALL businesses are designed to make money. Hence why its called business. What you saying is that is a business is designed to make money they must be illegal? Oh no, watch out wal-mart, and ebay!!!

To which no more replies where given. Here is just an add on from the same topic which further supports my point:

Technically having additional people to help you reach the required sales would be a bonus but in the same scenerio you could keep buying the tangible products yourself until you bought enough to cycle yourself. I.E. met the required sales. There is no rule in matrix systems that says you cant buy as many as you want until you recieve your free gift. So the time you get your free gift is still dependent upon you. Remember this site isnt offering e-books but actual products like jewelry, t-shirts, etc. so you have many options to choose from and they are things people may want many of, just like subs and haircuts. Its all about required sales regardless of whether someone is helping you reach the required sales or if you have to make them all on your own. I have more to say on it than this but you can view it all ny going to here:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

and read from the begining.

Arzel

July 11th, 2003, 01:28 AM

The following should explain the CA laws regarding lotteries and why a pyramid/endless chain (matirx) is illegal. It is a little long, but I didn't write it. You may assume that it does not apply to matrices, but I am completely positive that when this case is brought to court the elements of a lottery will be determined, and it will be deemed an illegal lottery.

uwantme,

Your example of a matrix without an endless chain is not the point. I am not saying your idea is illegal, I am just saying it will not work, please do not confuse the two.

A pyramid sales scheme (called an "endless chain scheme" in California) also may be a lottery. An "endless chain" is a plan for distributing property under which a participant pays valuable consideration for the chance to receive compensation for getting one or more additional persons to participate in the plan, or for the chance to receive compensation when one of those additional persons introduces a new participant. (The term "compensation" does not include payment based on sales to an ultimate consumer whose purchase is not made in order to participate in the plan.)

The law prohibits endless chain schemes which fit this definition.15 California courts reviewing endless chain schemes have concluded that they are inherently deceptive. The reason is that the rewards promised by the scheme can only accrue to any level of participants in the pyramid if it grows to another level. Obviously, the point ultimately will be reached where the necessary further recruitment is impossible.16

A scheme that is an endless chain often contains the three elements of a lottery. An endless chain scheme typically awards a participant cash or product bonuses or rebates based on his or her sales volume and on the sales volume of participants below him or her in the pyramid. Such an award satisfies the "prize" element in the definition of a lottery. Such an award based on sales to a non-participating ultimate consumer also would satisfy this element of the definition.

Endless chain schemes typically require participants to purchase products or memberships, or to make financial commitments in order to be eligible for bonuses or rebates. Such a purchase satisfies the "consideration" element in the definition of a lottery.

Finally, a scheme that is an endless chain typically distributes the prize "by chance," as that term is defined in the lottery context. In an endless chain, chance is the dominating factor because a participant's success depends in major part on the activities of the scheme's promoters17 and the activities of those below the participant in the chain.18 Further, the success of a participant in an endless chain also depends in major part on the saturation of the market which occurs as the pyramid expands, which typically is not within the participant's control.19

Example of an endless chain scheme that is a lottery: A company markets its products through a hierarchy of salespeople called consultants. A person enters the program and becomes a consultant by being sponsored by another consultant, and by paying $25 to the company for registration. Each consultant is encouraged to purchase a sample inventory of products from his or her sponsoring consultant, but the company literature says that a consultant is not required to make any purchase. Nonetheless, company policy encourages the purchase of the sample inventory and payment of the registration fee as a package, and a consultant cannot earn commissions without purchasing inventory.

The company encourages consultants to recruit others and to sell its products to the recruits, who in turn are encouraged to recruit others and to sell the company's products to them, through three "generations." Retail sales also may occur. The consultant can purchase products for resale only from his or her sponsoring consultant, who has purchased the products from the company. The company encourages all consultants to purchase products in advance of need.

The consultant earns commissions on his or her own sales and on the sales of the consultants in his or her network, who must purchase their products from him or her. The consultant also receives rebates on the products purchased from the sponsoring consultant based on the total sales volume of the consultant's network.

The consultant can earn promotions to consultant 2 and consultant 3 by achieving specified sales volumes by his network and specified volumes of purchases for resale to his network. Consultant 2's and 3's receive increased commissions, greater rebates on products purchased, and bonuses, all of which are determined by sales and purchase volumes.

This scheme is both an endless chain and a lottery. It is an endless chain because the consultant pays consideration for the chance to introduce additional consultants into the scheme and to receive compensation from their sales. The scheme also depends on an endless chain of middlemen (new consultants), encourages inventory purchases by consultants at all levels, and does not emphasize retail sales. (The latter are other features of endless chain schemes which have been identified by California courts.)20

This scheme is also a lottery. The prize element is present in the form of commissions, rebates, and bonuses. The consideration element is present because participants must purchase products in order to receive the commissions, rebates, and bonuses. The element of distribution by chance is present in that a participant's success depends in major part on the activities of the scheme's promoters, the activities of those below the participant in the chain, and also on the saturation of the market as the chain expands.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by Arzel

uwantme,

Your example of a matrix without an endless chain is not the point. I am not saying your idea is illegal, I am just saying it will not work, please do not confuse the two.

Why wont it work especially if its not illegal?

Arzel

July 11th, 2003, 01:40 AM

I already stated why it won't work earlier. Once people realize that the only ones that will get the free gift are those 50 or 100 people that buy first, you will find it very difficult, if not impossible to get additional people to buy.

When they realize that their purchase helps someone else get a free gift and they do not, they will simply go somewhere else to try and get a free gift. All of your lists will stall shortly after reaching that 50 or 100 or whatever. And the ones that do sign up after that will not be very happy.

But you will find this out for yourself.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 01:52 AM

I guess I will, or your in for a surprise. I will be selling tangible goods at below fair market value so even without the free gift I should still have customers. I have stated this before. People are always looking for a deal thats why they use ebay, yahoo, etc... If i can sell items for less than they could buy it elsewhere most of the time, then I will always have customers.. Once I stop the lists the others that buy wont even know about the free gift, it will be removed from the site, so that wont influence their descion to buy. As far as them going elsewhere where will they go? No other site offers what I will offer with a free gift, so there is no where else to go to buy it with a free gift. As far as my lists stalling did you miss where I posted over and over again that I would be stopping my own lists at 50, so there wouldnt be an endless list. If I am personally cutting it off how can it stall? And you say the ones who do sign up after that wont be happy, why? They already know they wont be added to no list and that they are buying a great product for cheaper than they could get it elsewhere.. Why would this make them unhappy? I dont really think you have read all my posts about my plans for my site.. All you have said doesnt really apply to me.. And yes I do think my site will work.

Arzel

July 11th, 2003, 02:01 AM

How are they going to know that the previous buyers did not get a free gift? That information has to be readily available on the site. You may want to check FTC regulations regarding gifts and prizes. The list of winners (which is what you would have) has to be posted and available. This is to prove that you actually are providing the gift or prize.

Also, I am guessing that you will have multiple lists, and they will not fill up immediately. Furthermore, when an entire list is cycled out you will probably start a new list. Your customers will find out eventually. Plus there will be that word of mouth advertising talking about it. Forums such as this letting people know about the site.

It will be practially impossible to keep one group of people from knowing about the free gift.

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by Arzel
How are they going to know that the previous buyers did not get a free gift? That information has to be readily available on the site. You may want to check FTC regulations regarding gifts and prizes. The list of winners (which is what you would have) has to be posted and available. This is to prove that you actually are providing the gift or prize.

Also, I am guessing that you will have multiple lists, and they will not fill up immediately. Furthermore, when an entire list is cycled out you will probably start a new list. Your customers will find out eventually. Plus there will be that word of mouth advertising talking about it. Forums such as this letting people know about the site.

It will be practially impossible to keep one group of people from knowing about the free gift.

I must admit your confusing me but lets see if I can answer this:

How are they going to know that the previous buyers did not get a free gift?

Well I could always make a members section for members that are left on the list when it closes for new names or i can leave the link on the site to see the list and if another customer asks me about it, I can explain the list is from an old promotion we are no longer running.

This is what I dont understand:

Also, I am guessing that you will have multiple lists, and they will not fill up immediately. Furthermore, when an entire list is cycled out you will probably start a new list. Your customers will find out eventually. Plus there will be that word of mouth advertising talking about it. Forums such as this letting people know about the site.

When a list cycles out I dont know if I will start a new one or not. I guess it depends on how well the first one went. Your right word of mouth advertising is the best, so I dont see how this would hinder my business?

Then you say this:

It will be practially impossible to keep one group of people from knowing about the free gift.

Okay your point being? I know burger king was running a buy one whopper get one free special last week, but I didnt make it to get a whopper when they were buy one get one free. This doesnt mean that Im not going to buy any more whoppers.. So even if people do know I used to offer a free gift but dont any more as long as I have quality products they want at a great price they will still buy from me.

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 12:53 PM

Uwante me: I wouldn't worry if your site is selling tangible goods. But why not play it safe and instead of using a matrix just reduce the price of the good even more? If you really are using a matrix where everyone will cycles there is virtually no difference.

If a matrix scheme like this is legal why arn't there any stores doing this?

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 01:07 PM

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:14 PM

How is it cheaper? For any tangible product you need to pay shipping and handling. Why don't stores use matrix promotions? I.E buy a tv and after 5 other people do you will get a free laptop?

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:15 PM

BTW I'd change the wording on your site tbc, I'm sure your lawyer would or at leats should agree that using thwe word investment is not a safe venture.

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
BTW I'd change the wording on your site tbc, I'm sure your lawyer would or at leats should agree that using thwe word investment is not a safe venture.

Thank you for the tidbit, I agree it might not be wise...Thank you.

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
How is it cheaper? For any tangible product you need to pay shipping and handling. Why don't stores use matrix promotions? I.E buy a tv and after 5 other people do you will get a free laptop?

Because a store has overhead, a internet site usually doesn't...

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:28 PM

I mean it just seems to me that if it was legal you'd see every store selling matrix banas at 200$ to get on a cycle list :)

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:28 PM

Actually given how frequently a grocery sttore is visited it would probably be the best place to run a matrix :)

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
Actually given how frequently a grocery sttore is visited it would probably be the best place to run a matrix :)

A grocery store as in food? So you buy 10 bananna's and get a free steak....lol

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 01:45 PM

Exactly

althoug i wqas thinking more along the lines of once a total of ten people buy bananas you get a free steak. Think about it has the nice family envronment everyone working together :)

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
Uwante me: I wouldn't worry if your site is selling tangible goods. But why not play it safe and instead of using a matrix just reduce the price of the good even more? If you really are using a matrix where everyone will cycles there is virtually no difference.

If a matrix scheme like this is legal why arn't there any stores doing this?

well that was kinda my piont before. Many stores are using a form of a straighline matrix if you think about it. Subway has there subway club where you buy 12 subs get one free, or the famous haircut example of buy 10 get 1 free. How is a matrix site really different. If the site is a good one you should be able to see the list before you join so you know how many sales need to made before you pay. Theres no rule saying you can make all the purchases yourself especially when a tangible item is invovled. Theres no law stating how much your free item has to be worth. So I dont really see a difference between what subway and others are doing and some matrix sites...

MysticX23

July 11th, 2003, 01:59 PM

MysticX23

July 11th, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
Exactly

althoug i wqas thinking more along the lines of once a total of ten people buy bananas you get a free steak. Think about it has the nice family envronment everyone working together :)

lol, that would be great...i love steak!

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 02:27 PM

The free haricut sub thing is a little different though since it does NOT include other people buying. If the deal was you get a free haircut once any ten people buy I beleive there would be problems. Once the deal includes more than one person I beleive it constitues a lottery or something like that.

The groccery store one would be perfect, especially for a new grocery store starting up. Since you're dealing with a good that people need to buy so you would litteraly have an endless supply of costumers. You could set it up like the million dollar matrix instead of money levels you would have food levels :)

The only problem would be that even with an endless supply of customers after the first year you would be waiting a very long time for your name to come up, but I guess you could always pass the prize on to your kids.

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 03:07 PM

uwantme

July 11th, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
The free haricut sub thing is a little different though since it does NOT include other people buying. If the deal was you get a free haircut once any ten people buy I beleive there would be problems. Once the deal includes more than one person I beleive it constitues a lottery or something like that.

This is what I dont understand, how would it be different? It looks to me like it would be better because you are recieveing help to get those ten sales. Its the same thing as if I let my friends use my subway card to buy subs and get the credit. I I have never seen anywhere where this is not allowed.

Heres another example.. Blockbuster offers their free rewards card. Basically if you rent a new release between monday and wednesday you can get a free rental of the old movies. If you rent five new releases each month you also get a free old rental movie. But you still have to pay for the 1st new release rental first. And the card itself has a $10 annual membership fee. On there rewards program instructions they tell you to give out extra cards to your family etc, so you can get more free rentals. So technically thats other people helping you get the free item..

I really see no difference in the matrix structure. Its still all based on sales redgardless of whether you make those sales or others help you make those sales..

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by uwantme
This is what I dont understand, how would it be different? It looks to me like it would be better because you are recieveing help to get those ten sales. Its the same thing as if I let my friends use my subway card to buy subs and get the credit. I I have never seen anywhere where this is not allowed.

Heres another example.. Blockbuster offers their free rewards card. Basically if you rent a new release between monday and wednesday you can get a free rental of the old movies. If you rent five new releases each month you also get a free old rental movie. But you still have to pay for the 1st new release rental first. On there rewards program instructions they tell you to give out extra cards to your family etc, so you can get more free rentals. So technically thats other people helping you get the free item..

I really see no difference in the matrix structure. Its still all based on sales redgardless of whether you make those sales or others help you make those sales..

lol.......Great example......

northstar5757

July 11th, 2003, 06:43 PM

Good example I'm not familiar enough with blockbuster. But what you say does seem very similar.

I'm more against matrix sites because they are ponzi schemes not because they are illegal lotteries.

tcb1969a

July 11th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by northstar5757
Good example I'm not familiar enough with blockbuster. But what you say does seem very similar.

I'm more against matrix sites because they are ponzi schemes not because they are illegal lotteries.

Nothing has been determined that Matrix sites are deffinately Ponzi Schemes. In fact the lawsuit that is going on claims illegal lottery not Ponzi Scheme....

Agent|Star

September 9th, 2003, 04:25 PM

The biggest part about ebooks is the fact that you would only need to buy it once. When you see the same name purchasing the same ebook this its clearly questionable since ebooks are sold with resell right...

The customers goal for purchasing multiple copys of the same ebook becomes questionable (the free spots). However, just because a customer is performing such purchasing habits does not mean the site owner himself has created the site for those purposes.

mikv

September 9th, 2003, 04:41 PM

What happens when the site owner does not promote or place advertisements and then tells the customers to buy in more times or bring in more people? Then it IS clearly they are buying just for the list products and the owner IS running the site the way it is explained. Like you said there is NO REASON for the customer to buy the same ebook multiple times since it comes with resell rights, as well there is NO REASON for CURRENT CUSTOMERS to bring in NEW CUSTOMERS when they can just sell it to them themselves. So it is clearly that ALL matrix sites run it solely to move lists and not sell ebooks. I know for sure that is what 2 of the BIGGER sites are doing as we type. As well there is an "agent" that has ran his site this way since the site opened and he is also one of the most praised.

Agent|Star

September 9th, 2003, 04:51 PM

In that situation such as milv points out then does show for the owners stance toward their site.

hurley9192

September 9th, 2003, 06:08 PM

the Blockbuster analogy is horrible as well. You guys still miss the point...with Blockbuster, you buy 10 movies and get one free...regardless if you have your family or friends use the card to get a free rental faster, you pay in $40 and get a $4 prize. If someone else uses the card, they get $4 worth of value.

For people in the matrix, they pay in $30 and get a $500 tv or something like that. the others that help you cycle get nothing but a crappy ebook. To have the matrix be the same, you would have to buy 10 $500 tvs and get one free. See the major difference there?

When I joined rsient.com I got 5 ebooks, guess what, I haven't looked at a single one, because they are pretty much bogus and worthless.

tcb1969a

September 10th, 2003, 02:03 PM

Hurley, if you haven't looked at the ebooks and don't want them, can I have them........:D

Treybee3000

June 12th, 2004, 01:47 PM

I suggest selling something on a matrix site that you made yourself and that no one can place a value upon. However if you dint make it yourself, then what you paid for it is the value. I plan on selling self-made artwork at me designated price, and i will actually ship the art to the customers, if i ever get my site up..........

MatrixWatch

June 12th, 2004, 07:25 PM

But if you require the purchase of ANYTHING to enter the matrix, then that matrix site is running an illegal lottery.

Whether the item be ebooks, hand-made items, artwork, kitchen knives, etc. It just doesn't matter about how much it is worth.

If customers must buy something to enter the matrix, then your site will be sued along with whoever processes your payments. Try to get processed by some of the major companies out there. They probably won't process for you if you are running an illegal lottery. They know that they will be subject to lawsuits.

Several customers have come forward to bring lawsuits against these matrix sites already, and more will be forthcoming.

It is best to not start a matrix site, and instead focus your business skills on something more legitimate. For, once a matrix owner starts mailing out gifts to cycled customers, the owner becomes more trapped in that matrix than the customers.

Dreamer

June 14th, 2004, 01:27 AM

Matrix supporters think the only problem with a matrix site is the selling of eBooks. It is assumed that it must be legal since something is being offered. The problem with eBooks is you can usually download them for free, or find a better one for alot cheaper. Making an ebook yourself isn't the answer.

Any product or service you plan on offering will be regulated by fair market prices. I can't take a 2 liter of Pepsi, put in some melted chocolate, and hope to sell it for $50. Even if I made my own concoction, the fair market price would be what items of similiar nature is being sold for. If its similiar to soda, than the price would be similiar. If it is similiar to something else, than it would be something else.

You want to sell home made artwork? Take that artwork to an art critic and find out what they would sell your piece as. $.05 and you want to sell it for $50? Just because you drew a stick figure on a napkin doesn't mean its high valued artwork.

Honestly, there is a ton of money to be made out there in legal activities that you won't have to worry about circumventing a law. Thats why businesses open all the time - to grab a share of the market, and to increase their piece of the pie due to something they do better than everybody else.

If you think there is a demand for cheap electronics, I suggest start formulating a business plan and bringing it to the manufactures. If its good enough, you can make much more money than any of these other fools legally.

Case in point: 1997 (I believe) Kasparov played (and lost) to IBM's Deeper Blue for their rematch. The computer was quickly dismantled and never played again. This match generated $500 million of FREE publicity for IBM.

If you can devise a busines plan to sell an alienware laptop for $1 (legally, no matrix, or lotto, or whatever), and generate so much publicitity for alienware and future sales, you'll be a hero to everybody. Getting Joe to pay for Sams computer doesn't cut it anymore.

Treybee3000

June 14th, 2004, 03:55 PM

Im an artist you idiot, nothing i would sell would be that low. If you got it figured out, then do it yourself.

concerned

June 14th, 2004, 03:58 PM

If you are a good artist, then just sell your art at a reasonable price and don't make a stupid matrix site where you will just be losing money by having to give people free gifts. In the end you will have more profit and less contraversy.

Now, quit insulting people on this forum by calling them idiots. This is the second time I have seen you do this. The first time you insulted matrix owners. If you are going to act childish in this forum, then this isn't the place for you.

Treybee3000

June 14th, 2004, 04:16 PM

he insulted me.... said my work would be worth $.05, however i appologize. I have decided not to make a matrix site. I found a dealer that sells alienware and voodoo laptops from bulgaria, buys them there cheper because everyone there is poorer so they cost less. I will be selling them on my site for about 1000 below retail.

concerned

June 14th, 2004, 05:30 PM

I didn't see that as an insult. He was just trying to make a point about the missrepresentation that matrix sites use to make their profit. Dreamer has never seen your work, so how could he insult your work based on the price he said it might be worth. He was simply stating that if it is worth 5 cents, then you shouldn't sell it for $50 just to run a site. He could have illustrated it the same way by using $500 and $5000. It really didn't matter. Anyway, I don't quite understand why you have to go through shady means to try to get a business up and running. Most places, including computer manufactures will sell you their products at wholesale prices, if you run a business. I guess I just don't understand why you can't just do it the normal way. I guess it must be too easy, but who know.

Dreamer

June 15th, 2004, 02:30 AM

I do apoligies. I wasn't trying to insult you. Next time I'll try to rephrase it better.

Concerned was right. I could have used any number of numbers to illustrate my point. But, let me make a point that is not money related to explain my point.

Dustin Diamond, the actor who played Screech in Saved by the bell, put out this instructional chess video. He was also in Chess Life magazine thinking he's master strength, but wants to work hard to become grand master strength. His rating was only about 1300 at the time. The average chess player in the US has a rating of 1400, or there abouts (the higher the rating the better). Kasparov, the #1 player in the world, has a rating of 2850ish.

Why does he feel he's a master strength? He has alot of chessbooks. He likes the game. He can probably teach it to others. But, anybody at that level thinks they are master strength, because they finally understand the fundamentals of the game, and they figure their rating will improve once they work on their weak points - their opening, maybe their tactics, etc.

Alot of people of medeocre abilities think they are much better than they are because they understand what it means to be good. When somebody says they are an artist, I think the $.05 brand. I've seen ALOT of really good art out there, but to sell it professionally, its impossible. Thats why there are many struggling artists out there.

And, Im not trying to insult you again either. You can show me a copy of a $5million piece from a gallary, and I won't know it from a stick figure because I don't understand art.

The reason I said $.05 to you here was because of your angle. Sell a piece of art. Is it worth more than the investment? Maybe. But, if I hear a matrix site owner do that, I'm thinking just some squiggles on a piece of paper, maybe even photocopied. I'm not saying you would do that. But, I've been to a site where they had a $30,000 car on it. The eBook was $1000, and in addition to the eBook, the owner was going to send you a blank cd, and a piece of paper with the words "Thank You" on it. Is that worth $1000? I don't think so.

I respect you for seeing these type of sites as potential money makers, and trying to figure out how to make them better. But, lets say you are the next great artist out there. You run a site, you sell your artwork. People are happy. Your getting your name out there, so thats worth the cost of the "gifts". But now, only 10% of the people on your site ever see anything, and alot of people go away angry purchasing your piece of crap (their minds, not the truth - they were just ripped off) and didn't get their prize. So, now you make it big in the art world and you have all these people accusing you of scamming them, which you didn't (in your mind). Thats just bad.

And I do apologies again if you think I was insulting you. People online and irl think that about me - I'm just not good with words. I only think of the point I want to get across, and fail to see the best way to say it.