i found the solution to end all debates...

[MysticX23]

IF, the defintion of "PONZI" schemes can be modified to exactly what the matrix sites are doing, then the matrix sites are illegal. However, because matrix sites are selling a product, they ARE NOT ponzi schemes no matter what you say. and no matter what the price on the product is(as long as the product itself is legal), matrix sites aren't ponzi.

example for those of you that don't undertand: lets just say fruits are illegal but vegetables arn't... but those anti matrix people would say a cabbage is illegal, which is totallly incorrect. but if you can change the definition of a cabbage to a fruit, THEN its illegal.


so until that happens, just based on definition, i can't see how its a PONZI scheme...

[MysticX23]

i will give you this tho...it does LOOK like one for sure..

but looks can be decieving. bottom line is that its not one.

[concerned]

Originally posted by MysticX23
IF, the defintion of "PONZI" schemes can be modified to exactly what the matrix sites are doing, then the matrix sites are illegal. However, because matrix sites are selling a product, they ARE NOT ponzi schemes no matter what you say. and no matter what the price on the product is(as long as the product itself is legal), matrix sites aren't ponzi.

example for those of you that don't undertand: lets just say fruits are illegal but vegetables arn't... but those anti matrix people would say a cabbage is illegal, which is totallly incorrect. but if you can change the definition of a cabbage to a fruit, THEN its illegal.


so until that happens, just based on definition, i can't see how its a PONZI scheme...

THE DEFINITION OF PONZI SCHEME IS NOT VERY SPECIFIC FOR A REASON. THAT WAY THE DEFINITION CAN BE USED OVER A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT LOOKING SCHEMES.

THE DEFINITION OF A CAR IS BROAD. DOES THAT MEAN THAT MY HONDA ACCORD IS NOT A CAR BECAUSE THE DEFINITION OF A CAR IS NOT MODIFIED TO EXACTLY THE FEATURES OF MY HONDA?

[MysticX23]

ok, maybe i got it wrong, but for a matrix site to be a ponzi scheme or scam, they would not be selling anything..or i'm just wrong on this subject? or was that a mlm or pryamid scheme..i'm not sure

[concerned]

Originally posted by MysticX23
ok, maybe i got it wrong, but for a matrix site to be a ponzi scheme or scam, they would not be selling anything..or i'm just wrong on this subject? or was that a mlm or pryamid scheme..i'm not sure

MAYBE THIS TIME MY SOURCE WON'T MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ponzi%20scheme

NOWHERE DOES THE TERM SELLING ANYTHING COME UP IN THIS DEFINITION. ALL IT SAYS IS "INVESTMENT SWINDLE".

SOMEONE INVESTS INTO AN EBOOK HOPING TO GET A PRIZE, WHILE GETTING SWINDLED. SOUNDS LIKE THE DEFINITION OF A PONZI SCHEME IS

"modified to exactly what the matrix sites are doing"

[northstar5757]

its a good try but it doesn't always work.

for instance protitutes have been trying to do this for ages.

[MysticX23]

well...ur right on this one...but does it make it illegal? does the law say ponzi are illegal? or does it say that if you sell something, it is no longer ponzi cuz you are selling a product...or does it say that you can or cannot do it on a FREE prize..

i'm asking because i really don't know(nothing against you)..its just what i'm thinking after reading some of the posts because i thought it was the "legality" of business that if you sell something it makes it not a ponzi "legally"..

[dbright]

Mystic, you better go look up the definition of ponzi again. In no way is the definition being altered. Offering a "product" does not automatically make it legal. I suggest you go to the FTC site and read the articles. If the product is worthless or severely overpriced then it is still a ponzi/pyramid scheme. Nearly everyone assossiated with these matrix sites, be it owners or customers, always refer to it as an investment...well doesn't that fit the definition of a ponzi scheme? In order for anyone to recieve a return on their "investment" other people MUST join behind them...the classic definition if I ever saw it.

I have yet to see any ebooks that have any worth...if the product is worthless it is a ponzi scheme. What is the definition of "worth" you ask?.......would a reasonable person pay for this product WITHOUT the incentive of the matrix.....especially since all the info can virtually be had for free. Every ebook that was on the ezexpo website I found in less than 5 minutes on a goole search.

NO REASONABLE PERSON would purchase this garbage. Are you really going to say you would spend $150 on How to make money on ebay, 50 recipes, and a wholesale list?...when you can find it for free in a matter of minutes?...or you can find a compilation CD with hundrerds of ebooks for $10. Does that really sound reasonable?

Lets go to an extreme here with this. Would you pay $100,000 for a car if you could get an identical vehicle at every other dealer for $20,000? Would any reasonable person pay 5 times the price? Absolutely not

In the case of EZEXPO they were most defintely a ponzi scheme...I don't care what the site is doing now but right up until they reopened, it didn't matter which list you "bought" into...when it came time to recieve the ebooks, EVERYONE recieved the same ones....they directed you to a download page that had ALL OF THEM listed so it didn't matter whether you paid $25 for an Xbox list or $150 for the plasma list....EVERYONE RECIEVED THE SAME PRODUCT....there was no value added other than the worth of the prize. That IS a ponzi scheme. The ONLY reason these sites haven't been shut down is because the FTC has NOT been notified of them. It would take quite a few reports to get them to notice but once they did you can bet they would step in and shut the matrix sites down because it sure fits THEIR definition of a ponzi scheme.

Even on that tech TV interview with Damion, Leo, the host kept pushing that it WAS a pyramid/ponzi scheme. So what exactly is your definition of a ponzi scheme?

[northstar5757]

well said

[concerned]

Originally posted by MysticX23
well...ur right on this one...but does it make it illegal? does the law say ponzi are illegal? or does it say that if you sell something, it is no longer ponzi cuz you are selling a product...or does it say that you can or cannot do it on a FREE prize..

i'm asking because i really don't know(nothing against you)..its just what i'm thinking after reading some of the posts because i thought it was the "legality" of business that if you sell something it makes it not a ponzi "legally"..

Here you go.

I found this on a government site.

http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm

The first paragraph under the title "What is a Pyramid Scheme and What is Legitimate Marketing?" will explain how they use the sale of an item to HIDE the pyramid structure.

I know this site tells about the pyramid more than the matrix, but it is really the same thing. You still need a lot of people at the bottom to pay off the "5%" of the people that are at the top.

[concerned]

Well said dbright.

While you were writing that I found a doc on the ftc site. I think that MysticX23 is actually trying to find the truth here, at least I hope he is. He seems to really want to have concrete information that no matter how the matrix owners are mutating the facts, in the end he will find out that these are 100% ILLEGAL.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
THE DEFINITION OF PONZI SCHEME IS NOT VERY SPECIFIC FOR A REASON. THAT WAY THE DEFINITION CAN BE USED OVER A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT LOOKING SCHEMES.

THE DEFINITION OF A CAR IS BROAD. DOES THAT MEAN THAT MY HONDA ACCORD IS NOT A CAR BECAUSE THE DEFINITION OF A CAR IS NOT MODIFIED TO EXACTLY THE FEATURES OF MY HONDA?

Yet you want Matrix sites to be specific, yet it's ok for a definition to a Ponzi scheme not to be specific.......hmmm

[northstar5757]

In defense of matrix sites though I do believe that the FTC has been aware of them for at least half a year and they havn't done anything yet. Even watchdog's lawyer did not seek the ponzi scheme route in his lawsuite so I'm guessing the case is not so cut and dry even if it appears to be. I do agree it is a ponzi or varient though.

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Yet you want Matrix sites to be specific, yet it's ok for a definition to a Ponzi scheme not to be specific.......hmmm

I NEVER SAID THAT THE DEFINITION OF A MATRIX SITE HAD TO BE SPECIFIC. WHY DON'T YOU KEEP READING THE POSTS. THEY ARE SPECIFIC ENOUGH TO FIN INTO THE PONZI DEFINITION.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
I NEVER SAID THAT THE DEFINITION OF A MATRIX SITE HAD TO BE SPECIFIC. WHY DON'T YOU KEEP READING THE POSTS. THEY ARE SPECIFIC ENOUGH TO FIN INTO THE PONZI DEFINITION.

Right here you said and this is what I read first and commented to before I read the rest of the comments....

Originally posted by concerned
THE DEFINITION OF PONZI SCHEME IS NOT VERY SPECIFIC FOR A REASON. THAT WAY THE DEFINITION CAN BE USED OVER A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT LOOKING SCHEMES.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by concerned
MAYBE THIS TIME MY SOURCE WON'T MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ponzi%20scheme

NOWHERE DOES THE TERM SELLING ANYTHING COME UP IN THIS DEFINITION. ALL IT SAYS IS "INVESTMENT SWINDLE".

SOMEONE INVESTS INTO AN EBOOK HOPING TO GET A PRIZE, WHILE GETTING SWINDLED. SOUNDS LIKE THE DEFINITION OF A PONZI SCHEME IS

"modified to exactly what the matrix sites are doing"

Here is where you are wrong... Once again is goes back to the price and worth of the e-book.. If the customer feels he is paying the price the e-book is worth then no one is getting swindled.. I buy stuff everday that I believe is a rip off.. For example I went to TJ Maxx to buy some baby clothes for my son.. I saw a cute little 3/6 month outfit there.. It was a little cardigan type shirt with a puppy and a pair of khaki shorts.. Once again it is for ages 3/6 months so you can imagine how little this outfit is.. They were charging $76.99 for the outfit. It wasnt a mistake because I even went and asked someone. The outfit wasnt designer like prada, gucci, or anything like that. In fact in was a brand I had never even heard of. Regardless it was $76.99 I felt that was a big rip-off and I didnt buy it. That doesnt make TJ Maxx illegal for selling it if someone came along after me and bought it for that price.. Its the same thing with matrices. Just because you might not pay that much for an e-book because you feel it is a rip-off doesnt mean everyone thinks like that. Its up to the indivual buyer to decide if its worth his money. If he feels it is it doesnt make that company selling it illegal for doing so, just because you think its a rip-off.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by northstar5757
In defense of matrix sites though I do believe that the FTC has been aware of them for at least half a year and they havn't done anything yet. Even watchdog's lawyer did not seek the ponzi scheme route in his lawsuite so I'm guessing the case is not so cut and dry even if it appears to be. I do agree it is a ponzi or varient though.

Yes, and what did Watch Dog's lawyer say it was? hmm

A illegal lottery....

For which A Matrix site is far from that....So he will lose.....but then again anything is possible in California.....(no offense to any one living there of course)

[dbright]

Northstar, what makes you think the FTC is aware of them? The only way they are made aware is if people file complaints. They also depend on the public at large to inform them of any type of scam. I've filed a few reports myself but it will take much more than that. I could find nothing on the FTC site concerining the Matrix websites. It may be that someone there is aware of it but if you have some info that shows this please post the link....i'd like to see it.

[northstar5757]

Actually i do beleive that he has a very good chance to win with his illegal lottery case.

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
Here is where you are wrong... Once again is goes back to the price and worth of the e-book.. If the customer feels he is paying the price the e-book is worth then no one is getting swindled.. I buy stuff everday that I believe is a rip off.. For example I went to TJ Maxx to buy some baby clothes for my son.. I saw a cute little 3/6 month outfit there.. It was a little cardigan type shirt with a puppy and a pair of khaki shorts.. Once again it is for ages 3/6 months so you can imagine how little this outfit is.. They were charging $76.99 for the outfit. It wasnt a mistake because I even went and asked someone. The outfit wasnt designer like prada, gucci, or anything like that. In fact in was a brand I had never even heard of. Regardless it was $76.99 I felt that was a big rip-off and I didnt buy it. That doesnt make TJ Maxx illegal for selling it if someone came along after me and bought it for that price.. Its the same thing with matrices. Just because you might not pay that much for an e-book because you feel it is a rip-off doesnt mean everyone thinks like that. Its up to the indivual buyer to decide if its worth his money. If he feels it is it doesnt make that company selling it illegal for doing so, just because you think its a rip-off.

YOUR EXAMPLE IS GOOD, BUT IF TJ MAXX TOLD YOU THAT IF YOU BOUGHT IT YOU WOULD BE ENTERED INTO A LONG LIST OF PEOPLE THAT BOUGHT THE SAME THING FOR A CHANCE TO WIN A TV, WOULD YOU HAVE BOUGHT IT? IF YOU SAY YES, WOULD YOU HAVE BOUGHT IT IF YOU KNEW YOU WOULD BE NUMBER 1000 IN THE MATRIX LINE?

[uwantme]

Originally posted by dbright
Mystic, you better go look up the definition of ponzi again. In no way is the definition being altered. Offering a "product" does not automatically make it legal. I suggest you go to the FTC site and read the articles. If the product is worthless or severely overpriced then it is still a ponzi/pyramid scheme. Nearly everyone assossiated with these matrix sites, be it owners or customers, always refer to it as an investment...well doesn't that fit the definition of a ponzi scheme? In order for anyone to recieve a return on their "investment" other people MUST join behind them...the classic definition if I ever saw it.

I have yet to see any ebooks that have any worth...if the product is worthless it is a ponzi scheme. What is the definition of "worth" you ask?.......would a reasonable person pay for this product WITHOUT the incentive of the matrix.....especially since all the info can virtually be had for free. Every ebook that was on the ezexpo website I found in less than 5 minutes on a goole search.

NO REASONABLE PERSON would purchase this garbage. Are you really going to say you would spend $150 on How to make money on ebay, 50 recipes, and a wholesale list?...when you can find it for free in a matter of minutes?...or you can find a compilation CD with hundrerds of ebooks for $10. Does that really sound reasonable?

Lets go to an extreme here with this. Would you pay $100,000 for a car if you could get an identical vehicle at every other dealer for $20,000? Would any reasonable person pay 5 times the price? Absolutely not

In the case of EZEXPO they were most defintely a ponzi scheme...I don't care what the site is doing now but right up until they reopened, it didn't matter which list you "bought" into...when it came time to recieve the ebooks, EVERYONE recieved the same ones....they directed you to a download page that had ALL OF THEM listed so it didn't matter whether you paid $25 for an Xbox list or $150 for the plasma list....EVERYONE RECIEVED THE SAME PRODUCT....there was no value added other than the worth of the prize. That IS a ponzi scheme. The ONLY reason these sites haven't been shut down is because the FTC has NOT been notified of them. It would take quite a few reports to get them to notice but once they did you can bet they would step in and shut the matrix sites down because it sure fits THEIR definition of a ponzi scheme.

Even on that tech TV interview with Damion, Leo, the host kept pushing that it WAS a pyramid/ponzi scheme. So what exactly is your definition of a ponzi scheme?

I know of a site that sells high quality jewelry instead of e-book packages and you still get your matrix entry. The jewelry isnt over priced in fact its cheaper than you would pay in most stores and it really is great stuff. So how does that fit in with your logic. Its nothing you can get for free anywhere.. Its worth more than the price your paying for the jewelry without the free gift invovled. So you already made an investment without any one else joining and you can reselll your jewelry for a profit so you can make money all without the free gift invovled. The free gift is a nice extra bonus but I just proved how sites can sell items and run the matrix structure without being a ponzi scheme.. And just in case you want to try to go there. the same site also has a cut off piont on their lists. So after so many people join they stop adding names to the list.. They continue tp cycle the names off their list by selling the jewelry as is(because its worth that much without a free gift invovled), an autocycle fund, and a third website they built that is in no way matrix, mlm invovled that sells 10,000 products. 75% off all their profits from this site also goes to helping cycle names off the list until the list is empty. So not only do you now have a tangible product that is worth the price your paying for it, you also no longer have an endless chain. So I guess this matrix site totally demolishes the whole call me a ponzi scheme idea...

[dbright]

TCB, you keep stressing what the ebook is worth to you....are you still trying to sell that argument?....If you tell me you would pay $150 for ebooks without the matrix then you are outright lying. It does not fall into the "reasonable" catagory...see my other post and use the example I gave. It still fits perfectly. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON who's bought into these matrix sites have EVER said that the ebooks are worth what they paid WITHOUT AN ENTRY INTO THE MATRIX. Please give me a break on this line of reasoning.

[northstar5757]

I was under the imopression that the FTC was aware of them due to the sudden increase in the last year but I may be mistaken.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by concerned
Well said dbright.

While you were writing that I found a doc on the ftc site. I think that MysticX23 is actually trying to find the truth here, at least I hope he is. He seems to really want to have concrete information that no matter how the matrix owners are mutating the facts, in the end he will find out that these are 100% ILLEGAL.

These sites are not illegal.. Not yet.. Lets look at an obvious example if these sites were illegal with all the publicity, and news how come Shelby or Damian where not arrested yet? Your going to tell me not a single cop or fbi agent ever saw or heard of their site or others like it. Thats BS... They havent been arrested because its not illegal..

The other way I know is because I currently have a lawyer working with me on this who has 20+ years experience in this field.. He has also told me numerous times that this is not illegal.. So until it does become illegal and you have proof that it has become illegal or you even bother to go get your own lawyer not the dogs excuse for one, dont say it is illegal..

No one is mutating the facts as much as the dog pound.. You guys try to twist every comment, statement, and word into something its not until it doesnt even say what the orignal poster posted but goes to work for some twisted logic you have..

[northstar5757]

The whole customers buying ebooks is insulting to everyone's intelligence. We all know that what is being sold is a place in the matrix not the ebooks. There may be a site out there that does sell decent products but I have yet to see it.

Basically no one would buy anything if it wasn';t for the matrix.

[northstar5757]

Basically what I see hera are strong parreles between matrix sites and escort services. Escort services claim you are buying time with the women and not actual sex. Whereas matrix sites claim you are buying ebooks and not a spot in the Matrix.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by concerned
Well said dbright.

While you were writing that I found a doc on the ftc site. I think that MysticX23 is actually trying to find the truth here, at least I hope he is. He seems to really want to have concrete information that no matter how the matrix owners are mutating the facts, in the end he will find out that these are 100% ILLEGAL.

Yea..i'll admit that I didn't look up info on ponzi and assumed some stuff i shouldn't have...but all i want to kno is facts, cuz the facts lead to the truth.

and after looking and replying to both sides, i have found that both sides have relavent argument as well as irrelavent arguements that are purely based on opinion and "moral" issues...as for the legal technicalities, its still debatable its seems so broad. thats just my opinion.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by northstar5757
The whole customers buying ebooks is insulting to everyone's intelligence. We all know that what is being sold is a place in the matrix not the ebooks. There may be a site out there that does sell decent products but I have yet to see it.

Basically no one would buy anything if it wasn';t for the matrix.

i'll accept most of that...just not the "insulting everyone's intelligence" part tho. as least for my part, i say customers buy the ebook is the loop hole that makes it legal...and if its legal, its legal....its kinda like, we all know that in the long run, casino's will jack you...but its legal. and in the case of matrix sites, so far...it looks to be legal just because "innocent until proven guilty"

and i like ur comparison between matrix and escort services.

[northstar5757]

Yes which is why its so hard to get a liscence for a casino and why they are so heavily taxed. Most casino's and lottery's are benefiting charities or the government.

[MysticX23]

which i think is why matrix owners would rather open up a matrix site than to run a casino, cuz its much easier.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by northstar5757
The whole customers buying ebooks is insulting to everyone's intelligence. We all know that what is being sold is a place in the matrix not the ebooks. There may be a site out there that does sell decent products but I have yet to see it.

Basically no one would buy anything if it wasn';t for the matrix.

Well its there and Im am member of it and so are many others. Im not telling you the name so you and the rest of the pack can work on destroying it for any reason you could find. But they are out there.

So you saying that if no one would buy any products if it wasnt for the matrix then why do people buy millions of things from ebay every day with no matrix invovled, or online malls and other shops? Having a matrix might help to bring sales but you do not have to have one to make sales. You just need to have a good product. If you do then the matrix just becomes an added bonus.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by northstar5757
Basically what I see hera are strong parreles between matrix sites and escort services. Escort services claim you are buying time with the women and not actual sex. Whereas matrix sites claim you are buying ebooks and not a spot in the Matrix.

However that may be escort services are not illegal. Plus back to everything else their are devaitions of everything. Prostitution is illegal but an escort service is not. Same thing again prostitution is illegal but its okay to get a laptop or have a woman dance naked in front of you and she gets paid good money. So if ponzi schemes are illegal we have proved anyway that matrices arent exactly ponzi schemes but a deviation maybe, Which is legal..

[northstar5757]

If you don't want to tell me that's alright. Like I said I'm referring to only the matrix sites I've seen. I've never seen one selling a decent product.

There are reasonable limits witht he escort thing though. A prostitute can't sit on a street corner and say they are selling apples for 150$, and giving away sex free. Just like how matrix sites can't sell ebooks at ridiculous prices and give away entries into a matrix for free. Selling their time for several hundred dollars an hour has been considered reasonable. I doubt the courts would rule that most matrix sites have reasonable prices and that their product is just a front.

Oh ya and not to mention the fact that escort services don't advertise sex. I don't know enough about escort laws to go on though :)

I don't have the time to report matrices to the FTC so don't worry about me. But why are you worried about someone reporting that site if there is nothing wrong.

The truth is most matrix sites will have collapsed BTW watdog's lawsuit ends (unless it is settled out of court). anyone with a basic concept of mathematics understands why.

Unless like you said they are selling decent products.

[northstar5757]

BTW should be by the time

[uwantme]

Originally posted by northstar5757
If you don't want to tell me that's alright. Like I said I'm referring to only the matrix sites I've seen. I've never seen one selling a decent product.

There are reasonable limits witht he escort thing though. A prostitute can't sit on a street corner and say they are selling apples for 150$, and giving away sex free. Just like how matrix sites can't sell ebooks at ridiculous prices and give away entries into a matrix for free. Selling their time for several hundred dollars an hour has been considered reasonable. I doubt the courts would rule that most matrix sites have reasonable prices and that their product is just a front.

Oh ya and not to mention the fact that escort services don't advertise sex. I don't know enough about escort laws to go on though :)

I don't have the time to report matrices to the FTC so don't worry about me. But why are you worried about someone reporting that site if there is nothing wrong.

The truth is most matrix sites will have collapsed BTW watdog's lawsuit ends (unless it is settled out of court). anyone with a basic concept of mathematics understands why.

Unless like you said they are selling decent products.

I am a matrix site supporter but I believe their our rules each site should follow. One I do think all sites should sell tangible goods and not e-books. 2. I believe that a site should not just advertise the matrix. It should be AT LEAST 50/50 devoted with at least 50% devoted to the e-books and 50% devoted to the free gift. 3. I also believe their should be a cut off limit on the lists.

The site I am a member of does all three mention above. they sell quality jewelry instead of e-books, their site is as much devoted to showing the jewelry and other programs as it is to showing off the free gifts. And they cut off all their lists at a certain number around 100 names I think, so they dont have endless lists. They continue tp cycle the names off their list by selling the jewelry as is(because its worth that much without a free gift invovled), an autocycle fund, and a third website they built that is in no way matrix, mlm invovled that sells 10,000 products. 75% off all their profits from this site also goes to helping cycle names off the list until the list is empty. So this site I expect will be around even after the lawsuit.

You said:
I don't have the time to report matrices to the FTC so don't worry about me. But why are you worried about someone reporting that site if there is nothing wrong.

To which I already responded:

Im not telling you the name so you and the rest of the pack can work on destroying it for any reason you could possibly find. But they are out there.

You know as well as I do the rest of the pack would go over that site with a fine toothed comb and nit pick every wrong word or picture. I happen to like the site alot and Im not willing to subject it, its members, or its owners to that kind of harassment for no reason especially when they have done nothing but try to improve the matrix concept and site.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by northstar5757

There are reasonable limits witht he escort thing though. A prostitute can't sit on a street corner and say they are selling apples for 150$, and giving away sex free. Just like how matrix sites can't sell ebooks at ridiculous prices and give away entries into a matrix for free. Selling their time for several hundred dollars an hour has been considered reasonable. I doubt the courts would rule that most matrix sites have reasonable prices and that their product is just a front.



So who gets go decide "reasonable limits". the courts? cuz i would not agree but i'll have to abide. but for now, there is no law saying how much an ebook is worth.

about prices...personally, selling time for money is worth more than several hundred dollars, to me, time is priceless! not to mention, ebay is auctioning many things off that you'd probably think would be worthless or worth more than it was sold, but the price depends on market demand. my own opinion is that one person shouldn't be able to decide what is worth what. to me, a fossil from 1000000 years ago isn't worth more than a piece of rock, but it is worth more than cars!! u kinda understand what i'm trying to say here?

[northstar5757]

Yes judges in courts decide it all the time! Matrix sites are far from the first people to try to use such a loop hole.

You make a good point about escorts. But it has held up in courts since many entertainers charge high fees by the hour as well.

[hurley9192]

someone said it already, but it needs to be reiterated, if no one would buy your stuff without having the possibility attached, then it probably is wrong.

There's no way that anyone would buy an ebook or wallpaper or whatever little trinket you are giving away with your spot in line unless there was the promise of getting the bigger item.

How bout this...if they are buying the ebooks, then why do you have people that buy in 20 spots or whatever on the same matrix and only receive 5 ebooks?????

there's the kicker...if they are coming for the ebooks, then why buy multiple spots in line or into multiple lists if they receive the same book??????????

[northstar5757]

But the real question is whether or not the matrix scheme is legal.

[northstar5757]

Yes hurley is coorect.

Anyone can see what these sites are really selling. Aside from Uwantme's secret site I don't think any judge would allow it.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hurley9192
someone said it already, but it needs to be reiterated, if no one would buy your stuff without having the possibility attached, then it probably is wrong.

There's no way that anyone would buy an ebook or wallpaper or whatever little trinket you are giving away with your spot in line unless there was the promise of getting the bigger item.

How bout this...if they are buying the ebooks, then why do you have people that buy in 20 spots or whatever on the same matrix and only receive 5 ebooks?????

there's the kicker...if they are coming for the ebooks, then why buy multiple spots in line or into multiple lists if they receive the same book??????????


Some little trinket or whatever? Excuse me.... but the jewelry I paid for was not some little trinket and yes I would have still bought it without the free gift. Let me reiterate something. If a matrix site is selling something a tangible good that consumers buy everyday at or below market value then they WILL HAVE CUSTOMERS EVEN WITHOUT A FREE GIFT. Sites like Ebay prove this everyday..... People buy all kinds of jewelry, junk and anything else you could think of for all kinds of prices everyday without any free gift invovled. The free gift is just an extra bonus and while it might bring in extra sales. Sales would still be made even without it.

I understand your piont about the e-books and buying of multiple spots but that doesnt even apply to my jewelry scenerio because members have the option of different colors, sizes, and styles for the same free gift.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by hurley9192
someone said it already, but it needs to be reiterated, if no one would buy your stuff without having the possibility attached, then it probably is wrong.

There's no way that anyone would buy an ebook or wallpaper or whatever little trinket you are giving away with your spot in line unless there was the promise of getting the bigger item.

How bout this...if they are buying the ebooks, then why do you have people that buy in 20 spots or whatever on the same matrix and only receive 5 ebooks?????

there's the kicker...if they are coming for the ebooks, then why buy multiple spots in line or into multiple lists if they receive the same book??????????

about buy people buy in 20 spots on same matrix and get only 5 ebooks, they should get 20 ebooks or get their refund..


...but about why people buy many ebooks/spots, its not the matrix site's problem,its up to the consumer to decide...how bout this:why do some children want to buy certain cereal? for the little Nemo toys or whatever they give away in there...any why do children want several boxes of the SAME cereal? cuz they want more of the same toys, or maybe the whole collection. i dunno, but it legal to do that.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by northstar5757
Yes hurley is coorect.

Anyone can see what these sites are really selling. Aside from Uwantme's secret site I don't think any judge would allow it.

until then, "innocent until proven guilty", so i guess that makes matrix sites legal for now...until the judges ban it....is this issue over? LOL

[uwantme]

Originally posted by northstar5757
Yes hurley is coorect.

Anyone can see what these sites are really selling. Aside from Uwantme's secret site I don't think any judge would allow it.

My sites not a secret any one who looks can find it. Its listed in search egines and all over the net. Im just not posting the name of it on this board.

[northstar5757]

Correct mystic,

Which is why the question becomes is the matrix scheme legal. Is the matrix a ponzi? If the only defense is that it is not a ponzi because you are buying ebooks it will not hold up in court (the judge will see through the trick).

And of course there is the illegal sweepstakes question.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by northstar5757
Correct mystic,

Which is why the question becomes is the matrix scheme legal. Is the matrix a ponzi? If the only defense is that it is not a ponzi because you are buying ebooks it will not hold up in court (the judge will see through the trick).

And of course there is the illegal sweepstakes question.

yup..we'll just have to wait and see i guess.

[northstar5757]

Sorry uwant me but didn't knwo what else to call it.

[uwantme]

its cool, I just didnt want everyone to think I was like hoarding this top secret site away from the world.

[MysticX23]

lol..i'd like to find this matrix site so that i can jewelry for my gf instead of ebooks.. google here i come.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by MysticX23
lol..i'd like to find this matrix site so that i can jewelry for my gf instead of ebooks..google you say? google here i come.

I have to go now but I will look this post up later and email the name of the site to you if you want Mystic. I think you understand that I do not wan tthe name of it posted here and if I send it to you, you wont do that right?

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by uwantme
I have to go now but I will look this post up later and email the name of the site to you if you want Mystic. I think you understand that I do not wan tthe name of it posted here and if I send it to you, you wont do that right?

yea, of course i undertand. and i won't do that. i myself am involved in several matrix sites and i'm not looking to shut down the matrix system either. just want the truth and anyway to make it better (and legally better).

[uwantme]

I emailed it to you...Thanks

[matrixfriendly]

Right on TCB!! It is alright for them to stray from the definition but not for us too. What is up with that? And by the way I have seen way more detailed definitions of the ponzi and they do not include a matrix system.

[MysticX23]

Originally posted by uwantme
I emailed it to you...Thanks

got it, thanks.

[hurley9192]

in the simplest form, a matrix site is an investment list of people where the first ones in are rewarded when later ones pay in...that's why it is pretty much a ponzi scheme...now, there may be some of you that are trying to change that, but as long as it pretty much works that way with people not paying for the worthless item, but the spot in line, matrix sites will be ponzi schemes...we'll see what happens, they may be lotteries as well...

hey, I'm out until Wednesday, so everyone have a great weekend, keep up the fun debates and remember that all in all, it's just a miniscule point in your life and there are things that are more worth our time that debating the same thing over and over again....peace.