YMMSS Cycle Times Explanation

[Arzel]

This was taken from the YMMSS forums regarding the cycle times, and posted by the mod newbody1. The mod's comments are in bold.


Hi J.T. I'll try to answer and keep it semibrief at the same time. If you are already a member there is a lot more information inside the Office Forum, so please register and log in there.... Here goes

Anonymous wrote:
I read that YMMSS has a target of a 90 day cycle time for positions. I also read that the curent cycle time is 155 days. I have a few questions reguarding this...

1: Why are the cycle times so inflated? (obvious question, and probly the hardest to answer)

Just since end of November 2004:

Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year holidays! This is always a slow time of year as people travel and entertain.

New system coming up (3 days) and glitches (up and down for 4-5 days). No purchases were possible on these days.

System going down to process 3x weekly precludes purchases being made during these times (4-6 hours).

eMoneyNews script error that caused loss of potential members and an incredible drain on resources of moderators on forums and help desk.

Credit card company not allowing more than 3 purchases a day and no purchases at all from certain countries.

IntGold and their verification system caused delays in purchases and payouts being available to members to repurchase. StormPay is doing the same thing now.

Hacking attempt and subsequent shutdown to verify accounts (3 days) prevented purchasing on these days.

YMMSS needing to verify certain members (after hacking attempt).

New helpdesk personnel hired and trained.

Ad forum moderators recruited and trained.

Incredible number of helpdesk tickets for nonsubstantive issues.

Credit card company having problems after update that affected purchases for 4-5 days at least (in March).

Kim becoming deathly ill with RSV and being out of action or in limited action for several weeks starting the beginning of February.

Several deaths, illnesses, and marriages affecting key people in YMMSS.

Final set of cluster servers being brought on line

Our own payment system being set up

2: Are there plans to bring down the cycle time to the target range? What are they?

When the final set of cluster servers is brought online we will be back to processing five days a week.

Our own payment system will free us for the most part from some of the restrictions now in place with the third party processors.

The new retail site will be up, bringing in more money as well.

When we hit the time in cycles that was impacted by the Nov 18th etc shut downs we will regain time there.

It's anticipated that the cycle times should start declining after this is all in place - within the next few weeks according to Kim.

3: How is this cycle time impacting your busness? how do you feel about it?

I don't feel the cycle time impacts our business at all. We are an advertising business after all. The cycles where we make our commission are one aspect of the business, but as advertisers we have other sources of revenue, and Kim himself has other sources of revenue putting money into our business as well. We are better and stronger than Ebay was at this point in their history - and we're only getting better.
Thank You in advance for your answers,
I apoligse for any misspellings or question repeats.
J.T.


I hope this answers your questions J.T.



You can see some very similar aspects between what is being said and what happened with several matrix sites in the past. Many of the reasons being listed for slow cycle times are a common theme when a pryamid begins to colapse.

One primary note of interest are those involving a "New payment processor".

We all know that many pay merchants will end or suspend use when they see what appears to be a pryamid or matrix type operation. I suspect that they are running into issues with their merchants, and this is no suprise. They are getting a huge number of multiple charges from a large number of people in a small time period for relatively small dollar amounts, and they are probably all listed as the same type of purchase. In previous matrix type scams as soon as one payment type started to shut them out it didn't take long for the whole thing to colapse. The introduction of their own payment system will probably not help much, it certainly didn't help other matrix type scams in the past.

Another note of interest is that of the "Serious Illness" claim. This is also very common in the scam industry when things are started to go bad. Usually this kind of statement comes out right before the end, so I am a little surprised that it happened so soon. I figured YMMSS might make it through the summer, but it now appears that it will colapse early or mid summer.

[concerned]

Why am I not supprised that they used the Hacking excuse? This site is really in trouble when they start claiming that hackers are trying to get in. Why would a hacker worry about ymmss when they could be trying to hack into a bank, or the FBI or something worth their time? After all, this site is a nobody to the hackers. I am always amazed how many nobodys try to use the "we got hacked" excuse.

[jokach]

I just wanted to bump up this thread since I think the excuses that are being given are amazing as concerned states....

jokach

[Arzel]

YMMSS cycle times continue to increase and stand at 166 days right now. They currently show no signs of going down, neither do they show signs of stablizing any time soon.

Furthermore it appears that the founder is desperately searching for new members to try and reduce cycle times as per their own announcement page.

Seeking Professional Advertising Agencies
25 Mar 2005 - K-ADMIN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seeking Professional Advertising Agencies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you have a professional sales force that would be interested in selling advertising for YMMSS, please send me your contact information ASAP to: (address removed) and include your complete contact information along with information about your agency and the number of clients that you have. Also, please state if your agency has any experience in selling internet advertising online. Thanks! Kim


The YMMSS forums are also starting to show signs of an increased state of distress. I feel particularly bad for those individuals that have invested large amounts of money in the past six months as their odds of loss are increassing dramatically.

[optimistclub]

Arzel, part of me feels for those duped by Your Money Moves Slowly South, but another part of me keeps thinking "fool me twice, shame on me". There are plenty of warning signs starting with headquartering a company in Belize when the founder lives in Vincennes, Indiana. While supporters could explain away most of the warning signs, when you put them all together, they paint a very ominous picture. I was reading a brochure on scams today, (I believe put out by the Chicago Board of Trade...don't have it in front of me at the moment), and the section on Ponzi schemes sounded like something that I can well imaging Kim doing...recruiting an initial circle of known and respected community leaders to get in on the ground floor, and then paying them with funds received from later recruits. The initial recruits experience great success, and then become well-respected mouthpieces lending legitimacy to the "company" and providing extremely valuable free advertisement (no epc required ;) ). The excitement builds, the money flows, eventually, new recruits (who have virtually no chance of making any money) slow to a trickle and the "company" dies a sudden, (and for most participants) painful death.

What really makes me :mad: is that unlike many other posters, I believe that Kim knows exactly what he's doing. I believe that he's very familiar with pyramids/ponzis/straight-line matrixes or whatever you want to call this "business". He may not be a rocket scientist, but setting up this "business", domiciling it in a soft jurisdiction, and disguising it like he did took considerable thought and planning. :applause: :bow: :applause: :bow:

Kim, your day of justice is coming...and guaging from your cycle times, it's coming faster...and faster...better buy that one-way ticket to Belize :nono:

[Arzel]

Optimistclub,

I agree with you to a certain degree regarding the "fool me twice, shame on me" statement. Only because I believe that a large number of the late investors have invested a substantial amount of money, and may not realize what they have gotten themselves into.

I do completely agree with your assesment of Kim though. He obviously knows what he is doing. Anyone that examines various quick money schemes and other various pryamids and ponzi type doubler schemes didn't go into this with a heart made of gold.

[Train]

Hello,

I'd like to introduce myself as someone who has been duped by Your Money Moves Slowly South. I was in denial, but it's becoming painfully clear that I've lost my money. The excuses are getting tiresome and the censorship on the message board is unbelievable. So when are we going to see those servers go up? They were suppose to working by mid February. When will the advertising website be launched? Kim said in a conference it would be in February as well. Promises broken and endless excuses. Now the cycle times are up to 166 with no end in sight. He predicted that they would not go past 160. Why are people still treating him like a saint?

So anyway, I am wondering....when the s*** hits the fan, is there any legal action YMMSS victims can take? He'll likely be long gone by then.

Train

[MatrixWatch]

Hopefully the victims will start working hard on getting some lawyers interested with this before it is too late. Lawyers.com would be a good place to start.

[sisco50]

Would be interesting to see what "getting some lawyers interested" will accomplish. :(

If this thing is as well thought out as you all believe, nothing will be accomplished. :(

[optimistclub]

Sisco, I don't know if it's THAT well planned out. I was recently told that Kim is building a new home in Vincennes, which means that he must have some of his money stateside, but I haven't confirmed that, so don't take it as gospel. I don't deny that Kim apparently spent some time planning this all out, but as I said earlier, I don't believe that he's any rocket scientist (just read a few of his posts...not all that well-written in my opinion :confused: ). He may have a significant portion of his assets sheltered and out of the country, but if I were on the receiving end of this crap, I'd consider hiring a lawyer to at least make his life miserable, even if most of the money was out of reach. :mad:

Surely there is a class action attorney :evil: out there who's interested in representing 20,000 victims...

[Arzel]

If it is as well thought out as I believe, then now is the time to start seeking professional help. If people wait too long it will be too late. People should at least consider all of their options.

[MatrixWatch]

...and quickly. I'd say that they need to get something going very soon. Like, within the next month.

[boytoy]

i am also a YMMSS member. basically i checked the site out having never invested before in any kind of internet business venture thinking they were all crap. i decided i would try this once to see what happens and that's it. kind of like a "what if it works and you miss out approach"?

i only put in a couple of hundred bucks so it's not too big of a deal for me in terms of loss, but for those poeple who have put thousands of dollars in i feel bad. at this point i'm almost resigned to the fact that this thing is going down the tubes.

i think people are in denial big time. all we get our rising cycle times, delays and excuses yet most of the members seem completely oblivious to what is staring them in the face. the fact there are no income ceilings is ridiculous in the first place..i mean do people actually think their money is just gonna keep doubling until everyone is a billionaire? i mean really how naive can you be. for me this was always gonna be a short term thing anyway. the funny thing is i think kim inman was genuine about his goals for this business, and perhaps if he had been more realistic with member numbers, income ceilings. etc..hey if things dramatically turn around i'll gladly eat my words, but what is going on over there now has overtones of enron's last days written all over it.

[numbersman]

I checked today and the alexa ranking for YMForums.com is 13034. This is the highest it has been since ymmss.org was split into the two sites in November. Is growing alexa rankings a sign that YMMSS has still got some life in it?

[optimistclub]

the funny thing is i think kim inman was genuine about his goals for this business, and perhaps if he had been more realistic with member numbers, income ceilings. etc...

:applause: :applause: :applause: Wow, boytoy...I think you're pretty naive. Please see post #5 this thread and Arzel reply at #6. The only thing Kim Inman is genuine on is the snowjob he's putting on you and the rest of the YMMSS family. Unless he's incredibly stupid, I don't believe that there is anything genuine at all about a con artist who creates illegal lotteries and siphons off 11% of all the action in his "business" for basically doing nothing, except dreaming up this con.

...where's the vomit icom on this thing anyway?!!!

[boytoy]

people that own and create businesses take a significant share of the profit. that's the whole point. 11% is nothing in this regard.

you don't know squat about what the guy's original motives were...nobody does. maybe he believed in what he was doing..maybe he's a con artist, but don't tell me i'm naive just because you think your guess is more accurate than mine. the only perspective that matters is on the business itself, to which my opinion is it's going down the drain, but time will tell.

[Arzel]

Naive might be a little strong. I think people believe what they want to believe. It can be easy to get caught up and only "hear" one-side of the story. Although it may not seem to be true, I actually have a very open view, but I am also very analytical, and my analysis is that these things just don't work.

But back to the my main point. I can understand why anyone involved with YMMSS would believe that Kim had good intentions when starting YMMSS. For one thing, if it doesn't work (regardless of how it crashes) those involved don't want to feel like they were duped by a con-artist, especially if they have lost a lot of money.

SO while I do believe this to be the case, I am not going to try and force this down the throat of pro-YMMSS'ers. My goal is NOT to make them feel worse about the situation, I would much rather help them in anyway I can.

[optimistclub]

I happen to think I DO know squat about his motives. He tried to fleece six figures from someone I'm pretty close to by offering my friend a post-dated check to cash if his money didn't double in 90 days. This was done in the last 30 days well after is became abundantly apparent that 90 days was pretty unrealistic. Anyone who understands banking knows the value of a guarantee like that. In addition, dig a little deeper back in my earlier posts...this ain't Kim's first rodeo...and he knows exactly what he's doing...

[ycchen]

First, let's welcome boytoy to matrixwatch and share "his" (I assume boytoy is a he) insight . :)

The purpose of Matrix Watch is to expose the logic behind all these get-rich-quick schemes, and to help victims as much as we could. Therefore, we welcome YMMSS members to join our forum to discuss topics that are not allowed on YMMSS forum. :)

[boytoy]

well good on your friend for being smart enough to say no.

bottom line is this: it's good to have sites like this to get out a skeptical view of things. i mean i signed up and stated clearly i pretty much agree with your assessments on where this business is going. anything else would be arguing out of some sense of ego and i don't wanna turn the discussion into a pissing contest.

but i will say that it's obvious to anyone with any sense of business at all that this is/was a high risk investment and should be treated as such. people have to take responsability for their own decisions, and if they were unwise enought to put thousands of dollars into this, particularly when the cycle times started skyrocketing then that is ultimately their problem. i simply don't harbour ill will because i had no delusions of grandeur to begin with, nor does losing a couple of hundred bucks mean anything to me really in the grand scheme of things...and i won't even lose that in the first place if it holds itself together for another month or so and i actually cycle.

there are a lot of people who have made a lot of cash out of this already who i'm sure don't feel conned. i know this is often the way these things work with people doing well at the beginning and then it crashing to a halt, but it's up to people to understand that and know exactly what the hell they are getting into before forking up their cash. it's easy to play the victim role but at the end of the day you are the one that clicked the deposit funds button, and if you don't even know the risk involved of what you are sinking your own money into you shouldn't be in the investment game in the first place.

that's just my 2 cents. if there are people out there who sunk their life savings into this i do feel bad for them, and it's great you guys are trying to help which is very commendable. :applause:

[Arzel]

Yes, Welcome boytoy.

Some of this info might be known, but is new to me in my pursuit of how YMMSS plans to reduce cycle times.

The primary reason given for the increase of cycle times is the large number of purchases leading up to Nov 19, 2004. But to be more specific it is the large number of $320 positions purchased in the approximately 50 days or so before that date.

The underlying principle of YMMSS was that members would purchase single $10 EPC's for every day of a cycle, and then let those purchases double up to the $320 mark (6 cycles). Since you are not able to cash out until you reach the $640 amount ($320 cycled) most of the positions within YMMSS were not paying any actual cash, but simply doubling to reach that $640 point. That gives YMMSS a long time to hold that money until they have to pay anything out. This is not that unusual since most of these doublers work this way.

The big problem is that apparently a large number of people bought $320 positions right away, not wanting to wait 2 to 3 years for them to mature. In addition it has been long enough for many of the first $10 and smaller positions to mature as well. So now YMMSS is forced to really start paying out some real money, and it just isn't there.

Additionally, many members now are in the "wait and see" mode causing further problems.

YMMSS is still touting the outside revenue as a solution to the cycle problems. What these sources are is pretty much a mystery, certainly the $60,000 a week or whatever they are getting is no where near the ammount of money needed to keep them from stalling. They claim to have sources in the hopper that will generate millions of outside revenue. I find this very hard to believe because the outside revenue would have to exceed the purchasing power of the members, and for advertising that just doesn't make good buisness sence.

Currently YMMSS is about 35 days out from making the Nov 19th date, and if cycle times continue to increase at their current rate they will go over 200 days before that day is reached.

After that date (for about 35 days or so) almost all of the new sales were to new members, presumably at the $10 level, or at least quite small. Since they don't allow cash outs for those levels the cycle times will drop quite rapidly for a while, but no more than 35 or so days.

Then is the mystery time, the time of all these outside revenues to really start kicking in. My personal belief is that there will not be much outside revenue, certainly not enough to reduce the cycle times very much. But even if cycle times do come down a little, due all those big positions causing the problem right now are going to be coming due again causing cycle times to literaly explode.

My predictions:

May 1st - 190 days
May 15th - 200 days (Magic date for Nov 18th/19th)
June 1st - 170 days
July 1st - 160 days
August 1st - Upward trend to explosion

Admittedly my predictions after the May 15th date are somewhat difficult to make. If the member erosion continues they will have a hard time reducing cycle times at all.

Thoughts?

[ycchen]

Very interestring analysis, Arzel! Even if I agree entirely with your analysis, there is one human factor that should take into serious consideration. :)

Your analysis is based on honesty of the owner, i.e. he should follow the "business cycle" of YMMSS -- the income of EPCs.

Well, we all know how honest Kim is by now, don't we? :) Therefore, even if it is time to reduce the cycle time in June, Kim will not do that. Or he will just reduce a few days, or stabilize it for a few days instead of 30-40 day drop. (BTW, I am a little bit sketical about the possibility of a large 30-40 days but would definitely agree that there should be a drop in cycling time by June).

Instead of reducing the cycle time, Kim would just pocket the extra money, and continue to find execuses and pressure members to buy more EPCs. Remember, YMMSS is at the end of its pyramid life (too big to sustain), therefore Kim is definitely executing his exit plan at this moment.

Just my two cents.

[surfer]

Arzel, don't forget that 35 calendars in YMSpeak is
in reality over 100 days when it comes to cycling.

So we're looking at mid July at the earliest for that
Nov. 18/19 processing.

If they actually launch the retail site and it's
able to bring in anything substantial, that might
slow the upward trend a bit.

By the time Nov. 18 cycling actually gets here, it
looks like cycle times will be well over 200 days,
possibly in the 220-230 range. I can't see it ever
scratching it's way below 200 again.

After that, about all I see is the upward trend
continuing, possibly rising a bit slower than the
last couple months.

The "payout" amounts have been fairly consistent
which would indicate incoming revenue has also
been consistent. In real business, consistent
incoming revenue is a good thing. Of course, a
ponzi/doubler needs much more than consistent
income to sustain itself.

I haven't followed enough of these things to agree
or disagree with ycchen's exit strategy theory. I
guess we'll find that out soon enough.

[boytoy]

that is ultimately the question: where is the money going to come from to sustain this long term... will the retail site get launched, are there really significant outside income coursces, etc. by now it has become obvious that based solely on EPC purcheses this is a non sustaining entity.

and that doesn't even address the issue of what happens years down the line when without income ceilings huge and potentially outrageous commissions will have been accrued on a cyclical basis.

personally i think we will see cycle times halt at some point and go down, after which the end game of this business will be played out one way or another as we head into the latter stages of the year.

[concerned]

Why does nobody ever see the big picture with these things. I think it was said that Kim makes about 11% profit on the purchases of EPCs. Not sure if this is correct, because I am not very familiar with this site, but if that is the case, why is nobody asking the obvious questions.

1) If he can make $60,000 from revenues for advertising, why wouldn't he just have an advertising business where his profit would be $60,000? For him to make that much profit from $10 EPCs he would have to sell 54,546 of them. Why would someone want to do all that work, if they could just sell the advertising?

2) Why is he now opening a store to fund the cycles? Does this guy know anything about business? I doubt it. This is why. In business, you NEVER open one business to fund the shortfalls of another business. That is just stupid. Now he will have 3 businesses (selling EPCs, selling advertising, selling stuff at a store) and the combined profit of the three will be less than the profit from just selling advertising. When you do this, you have already failed as a business person, and there is really only one reason in my opinion why he is claiming that he is doing all this. The reason can only be that he is just talking a good game to get more people to buy EPCs so that he has more people to scam from.

[surfer]

Well, I just started a thread that addresses the issue
about using one business to fund another and how
little sense it makes.

The fees are actually 25%
11% to Kim
11% to cover operating costs
3% for referal fees

[ycchen]

11% for operating costs? Anyone knows how many "employees" hired by Kim, and their names?

I think 9% (out of 11% operating costs) goes directly into Kim's pocket. That makes his profit a total of 20%. So, for every $320 EPC sale, Kim takes away $64 dollars. That is probably the main reason why the cycle time rises so fast .. :D

[Dreamer]

A few insignificant points:

1. Any member can cash out their position upon cycling, no matter if it is $20 or $640. I'm sure 99%+ of the members before would rather wait until their $10 position became a recurring $320, however, if anybody here is involved in ymmss, I suggest that they cash out all their positions upon cycling.

2. Kim opening up his own retail store shouldnt be a suprise to anybody. He bought a hotel somewhere. He made a deal with a travel agency to give people discounts for traveling (to his hotel). Now he is going to have his own business. He spent alot of money on his server which will be good for him when he deletes ymmss off of it and puts his own web based business on it. Now the next step will to find another business that is willing to kick back money to ymmss that will get his retail business more business.

The analysis of cycle times dropping at 200 days is interesting. I wish I could believe it however, every day that passes, cycle times get degraded because people lose more and more faith. The Nov 19th purchase, I'm willing to bet there is a 95% cash out rate, so thats going to take twice as long since I dont see anybody putting any money back into it.

[surfer]

No idea how many employees there are. They did
recently hire on people as full time help desk personnel.

I'd certainly guess at less than a dozen.

Of course, there's the "financial advisor", Mark. I imagine
he would come at a pretty hefty price, especially with
his uncanny ability to help find investments that can easily
return over a billion/year. You'd think he wouldn't even
need a job.

From a document on one member's site.

75% of every purchase that YMMSS members make goes into the commission’s payable account. 3% of every purchase pays the referral commissions to the sponsors (if Kim or Success thru Ads is the sponsor, that 3% is placed into the commission’s payable account). That leaves 22%. 11% of that is used to pay operational expenses like salaries, computers, etc. The remaining 11% is set aside to use for generating alternate income sources that will feed the commission’s payable account. Why would he do that? As with any successful corporation, like General Electric or Microsoft for example, having multiple business units makes good business sense.

[concerned]

Of course, there's the "financial advisor", Mark. I imagine
he would come at a pretty hefty price, especially with
his uncanny ability to help find investments that can easily
return over a billion/year. You'd think he wouldn't even
need a job.


Now, you must be assuming that these employees really do exist, aren't you? Just to tell you all, from my experience with my new job, which is with a financal institution, if he was finding investments that return a billion dollars per year, he would require at least $10 Million for his services. That means that if he only uses 11% for operating cost, and you assume 10% goes to the advisor, he would need to make 100 million sales at $10 each. That is by the way extremely conservative.

[surfer]

LOL, I try not to assume too much, but I have
seen several different employees mentioned by
YMMSS members.

The advisor fees aside, how much capital would
normally be required to find an investment that
would generate upwards of $20 million/week in
18 months?

And have you ever heard of any types of
investments that within 12 months of investing
$2 million are giving you $2 million/week. Seems
just a tad far fetched to me. If these types of
returns were so easily found, I'd think some of
our ultra-rich would be trillionaires by now.

[ComplexKid]

Drug baronetcies?

Well, maybe money laundering would do it too.

[Arzel]

Arzel, don't forget that 35 calendars in YMSpeak is
in reality over 100 days when it comes to cycling.

So we're looking at mid July at the earliest for that
Nov. 18/19 processing.

If they actually launch the retail site and it's
able to bring in anything substantial, that might
slow the upward trend a bit.

By the time Nov. 18 cycling actually gets here, it
looks like cycle times will be well over 200 days,
possibly in the 220-230 range. I can't see it ever
scratching it's way below 200 again.

After that, about all I see is the upward trend
continuing, possibly rising a bit slower than the
last couple months.

The "payout" amounts have been fairly consistent
which would indicate incoming revenue has also
been consistent. In real business, consistent
incoming revenue is a good thing. Of course, a
ponzi/doubler needs much more than consistent
income to sustain itself.

I haven't followed enough of these things to agree
or disagree with ycchen's exit strategy theory. I
guess we'll find that out soon enough.

You are so correct Surfer. I forgot to account for the fact that everytime the cycle rate increases a day it pushes back the magic date for the Nov 18th purchases by a day. I would say your guess of mid July is a much better guess putting the cycle times in the 230 range.

This is all assuming that things don't continue to deteriorate. If the new retail site isn't up soon, and/or doesn't provide a big bump in revenue I see things getting even worse. The benefit of the 11/18 date won't even have the large effect I originally thought.

There are many that also think when their new servers go online (allowing purcahses 7/24) this will bring down cycle times. I don't see this happening, presumably those buying their EPC's are simply buying them when the site it currently up, having it up and processing every day will only spread out those purchases, maybe there will be a little more, but I doubt it will make that much of a difference. They will be processing every day, but the amount they process will be smaller so the net affect will be pretty small.

[Arzel]

And have you ever heard of any types of
investments that within 12 months of investing
$2 million are giving you $2 million/week. Seems
just a tad far fetched to me. If these types of
returns were so easily found, I'd think some of
our ultra-rich would be trillionaires by now.

And why even start YMMSS if this was possible? The advertising aspect is weak at best. $2 million/week by 20,000 members is approximately equal to paying them close to $100 for a half hours work of reading ads. It is just not logical.

[Dreamer]

And why even start YMMSS if this was possible? The advertising aspect is weak at best. $2 million/week by 20,000 members is approximately equal to paying them close to $100 for a half hours work of reading ads. It is just not logical.

That is the problem with all these sites that want to save the world. If it was possible to make that kind of money to keep this site operational (some people not stopping at making $100k/year but what about a million/year?). They can just not pay anybody anything, still charge the $10/epc since its so valuable, and the $20billion or whatever it will take, put that money into an account and set up a dream come true foundation that they will grant wishes to those who ask.

[concerned]

Dreamer brings up another good point. Who on earth can ever believe that people actually want to make everyone rich. It just isn't happening out there. Nobody is that generous. People are selfish out there, and I don't know of anyone that would share their wealth with just any Dude that has $10. If they had that opportunity, wouldn't they help their friends and family first before helping $10 Jack? I wish these people would quit trying to be heros or something, because it just doesn't work that way.

[Arzel]

Cycle times have reached 202 days, and the average payout for the past three days was the lowest it has been for at least a half a year. Unless huge streams of outside revenue start coming in I don't see the magic 18th date ever being reached.

[Salsa]

Yes, it's the lowest payout in a long time, and the curve it is on looks like they'll get much lower! Here's a little graph I made that should really scare any visiting YMMSS members.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/ymmss/ymmss_daily_payout.gif

(Thanks to workathomenetwork.com (http://www.workathomenetwork.com/ymmss-commission-and-cycle-time-history.htm) for the raw data.)

To be fair, for that eleven day period in November, when daily payouts were even less than for the past three days, that was supposedly because of processing difficulties, so you'd have to go over a year back to find where payouts should have been as low as present.

Also, the biggest daily payout ever was a few days after that November dry spell. It was almost a million dollar day, but even when the processing system was working again, those eleven days were never even close to made up for. Looking at the graph, it appears that when the Ponzi was just past its peak, "someone" reached in and grabbed a chunk.

The average daily payout for the month leading up to the dry spell averaged 434K, but for the month after (even with the million-dollar-day) it was only 355K. And the most recent month the average was only 139K (ending with 59K)

Arzel, when I first saw your prediction that 11/18 wouldn't process, I thought you might be a little overly pessimistic. But you're right. I don't think we'll even get close to 11/18. I've never analyzed a Ponzi before, but I wouldn't expect a perfect bell curve; I'd expect a big chunk out of the downslope--when it crashed. And it looks like that would have typically happened in February or early March. The only thing that has kept it going since then is the force of the members' unusual faith and unwise donations. I'm afraid (and hope) that that faith won't last much longer.

Salsa

The math works both ways.

[Arzel]

Nice graph Salsa, I didn't realize we could even put images into a post. :)

It is quite difficult to really gauge how much money has been paid out because a good amount of the earlier payouts were nothing more than money being recycled back into the ponzi, but I think you are right about the big chunk being taken out right after the 11/18 date.

It would appear that member faith in YMMSS is dwindling quickly, and given the recent comments by Esto I am thinking that the next few weeks could be the end of YMMSS, unless Kim actually produces some outside revenue. Even then I think the damage to YMMSS is such that it will only delay the inevitable by a few months.

[Salsa]

I'm glad you liked the graph, Arzel. Crunching numbers with a spreadsheet or database can be revealing in itself, but there's nothing like seeing a picture that sums it up. Instructions for including images is under the vB Codes link, which you'll see at the bottom of the message posting page. When I saw the capability of including an image, I guessed it was okay!

Anyway, here's another graph that I think is revealing. It represents the days to cycle and member count at the end of each month, plus the dollar payout for each month. Projected days to cycle and payout for May are based on the first eleven days of May, plus the May payout projection includes the new 300K outside revenue stream that is anticipated to begin next week. The thin dashed lines for May are not projections but merely a scenario of what would be necessary to maintain cycle times where they ended in April, at 193 days. Membership for April is also only an estimate, 25,000. It seems that exact membership numbers are no longer made public, which in itself suggests that membership might have leveled off more than anyone wants to admit, and it may not even be 24,000.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/ymmss/ymmss_cmd_050511b.gif

Up to now, most of my analysis of the statistics has been little more than trying to project trends, and I'm beginning to better understand and appreciate the deeper analysis that many of you veterans have been doing all along.

For me, a very revealing bit of information in the graph is the scenario required to level off cycle days at 193 through the end of May. I know it's a bit late to do that, as they are already up to 203, but it's a monthly graph, here, so I needed to start with the cycle times as they were at the end of April.

The thing is, as we all know, YMMSS is currently cycling October 20, 2004. From that date until the "magic" goal of November 19, 2004, $13 million was paid out. That implies that sales for that period were some $17.3 million (13*4/3), So, to make that payout by May 30, the daily payout would have to average a record $580K--and that's just to cover purchases made between 10/20 and 11/18. The actual requirements to also pay members who already had matured positions are much greater, as I'll show.

Looking at reported payouts for the 89 days of Feb-Apr, 23 days were processed, paying $17.6 million. Then, looking back to payouts for those days, they totaled $7.4 million in payouts, implying a "company" income of $9.9 million. So that would mean that $7.7 million of the Feb-April payouts were for EPCs that had matured before the previous cycle. That doesn't mean that that was all cash money because members can reset EPCs back to repurchase at any time, but it does suggest that much more than a $580K daily payout average in May is required to stabilize cycle times.

By now, many more EPCs have matured than had back then, but even using those same numbers, the average daily payout for first 30 days of May would have to be an even million dollars a day in order to stabilize cycle times. That's $30 million required to process to November 19, 2004 in the next 30 days.

On the other hand, if payouts could somehow be maintained at the current May rate of $106K per day, it would take some 280 days to process to 11/19/2004. It would be February, 2006 and cycle times would be almost 450 days. Even throwing in "outside revenue" of a couple million a month, would only move it back to October, 2005. But long before that I should hope that even the most die-hard members will have started to get the message, and there will be no revenue stream, causing cycle times to increase with the calendar.

Salsa

[MatrixWatch]

Salsa, this data is terrific!

[Dreamer]

Isnt that first graph a classic bell curve, suggesting the trend will go downhill, or does ymmss not have to follow by the bell curve business model (if thats what it is...its been too long) and instead are they operating by a sin or cosin curve?

[Salsa]

watchdog: Thanks for the kudos.

Dreamer: No, that isn't a classic bell curve. Classic bell curves don't have $5M chunks missing from their middles. :D

Other than that, yes, your memory of a classic bell curve is intact. :)

Salsa

[Dreamer]

Well, i just meant that a bell curve is a depiction of the life of a business, product, etc. And with the highs and lows here and there, that is probably more accurate of a failed business than the bell curve. Of course, the bell curve would only give the general shape averaging everything out.

But indeed you make a point in ur last comment to me. ymmss will probably not have a second life. If it does the peak will be alot lower and the drop will be alot quicker, just because the second life will come from current members that get excited by all the promises that kim makes that is piss poor. Of course, I havent come to the point yet I was making :)

On an unrelated note, kim wants to be the next eBay. He wants to do everything. But, so far everything he has done is so inferior to whats out there its not even funny. Well, its funny to laugh at him, but this is the best he has? He was all proud that there is 1,154 members on the auction site (23,000 members on ymmss) and like 95 auctions. Out of those 95 auctions 26 auctions have a bid on them and 7 have multiple bids. There are 9 items of EPC purchases, 5 have bids, 3, have multiple bids.

One such one is 2,5000 EPC posting credits that the person paid $25,000 for, and he cant even get a $200 bid on it. And they are going to compete with eBay?

Back to your point you made. Look at when ymmss was strong. Even then it had horrible days. Oh, they can make excuses, but excuses dont cut it

[drzod]

In my inbox, a member has sent the following to the help desk and tried to reach Kim personally. Let me know your thoughts (the help desk indicated that they will send it to the "next level" to reach Kim).

Hi Kim,

Thank you so much for creating YMMSS, and for the dedication and hard work of
you, your family, and staff.

I have some suggestions that have come to mind that, I feel, would not only
enhance retention, but, MORE IMPORTANTLY, encourage members to PURCHASE more
EPC's. My suggestions pertain to our commissions, and are as follows:

1. Pay commissions of 25% each 30 days, starting at 30 days from the purchase of
the EPC's, for 8 consecutive months on the same date each month.

(For example, an $80.00 EPC purchase would pay $20.00 each month for the next 8
months, with the first payment to start 30 days from the purchase date.)

2. With my proposal, what IS IMPORTANT here is: WE ALL WANT RETURNS TO APPEAR
SOONER from our business expenses of purchasing EPC's.

3. So, with this plan I am proposing, at the end of 120 days we "Break Even,"
and, at the end of 240 days (the end of the commission period), our business
doubles in value.

4. The KEY POINTS I am trying to make are:

A. We will not only know HOW MUCH to expect, but, we will know EXACTLY WHEN to
expect our commissions.

B. Since money is a "Natural, Universal, MOOD ELEVATOR," it will stimulate more
purchasing with "NEW MONEY," as well as with earned money (commissions).


Please, seriously consider my proposals, and reply. I know you are already busy
working on ways to increase the Commissions Payable Account. However, I truly
believe my proposals will naturally stimulate MORE business and SOONER, since
more members will take a more active part purchasing more EPC's with their more
frequent commissions.

Thank you

[ycchen]

I guess this member has very little idea of how ponzi works. I am 100% sure Kim won't even bother to entertain this suggestion because he can't. Kim is a con artist, not god, so there is no way he can promise everyone will double their money.

YMMSS is designed as a ponzi scam from day 1. What is a ponzi? A ponzi is about a pure money game in which everyone throw their money into a "pool". The owner takes away 25-50% (who knows?), the first 10% of customers take away the rest. (Many of the early birds are usually owner's relatives and close friends). 90% of late customers are designated donors. That's the whole picture (the whole structure), the rest are all gimmicks to disguist the ponzi to look "real".

It is easy to prove us wrong. Ask Kim to do a very simple survey. Write an email to ALL YMMSS customers and ask them how much they have earned so far.

a. 4x & above
b. 3x
c. 2x
d. 1x (break even)
e. not paid yet.

I mean ALL members, not just those few familiar names.

That is the BEST way to prove that YMMSS is not a ponzi but a real business that everyone gains evenly.

Only then, this member's proposal would make sense. Otherwise, I am sure Kim will just ignore it. Or he will start a "new system" (just like what IT4US.net is doing right now) and ask everyone who hasn't made any money to join that system. Then, it will cycle very fast and all the early birds will be posting happy testimonial until it crash again.

[Salsa]

Here are a couple of updated graphs on YMMSS history/projections. I had intended to post these after the first of June, but I've been out of town since the first, attending to a death in the family. (No, not a YMMSS suicide--not yet.)

The little dashed line coming off the top of the green line was my projection for May, which was a bit optimistic. My May cycle time projection was on target to the day, however. The discrepancy might suggest that more members opted for cash commissions than I had anticipated. The new commissions projection for June and July is also probably a bit on the optimistic side and includes considerations for the United We Stand donations and the $300K of outside revenue for June and $600K for July. I am very skeptical whether the July $600K will materialize, however.

Membership is also still an estimate from April onward as exact numbers are no longer reported. Membership numbers also give no consideration to attrition--which is significant. For a better sense of actual active membership, consider that ymforums.com (which has now been online for 15 months) currently has only 8,507 registered users, ymauctions.com (which has now been up for 40 days) currently has only 1,754 registered users, and the United We Stand movement has only 309 "believers."

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/ymmss/ymmss_cmd_050611a.gif

The daily commissions graph, below, is much the same as before except that I started it at 1/1/2004 instead of 5/27/2004, and it now runs up to 6/10/2005. Of course, it has reached new lows since the original graph of a month ago. It's the same data as shown by the green line in the above graph only the above graph is monthly totals whereas the below graph is daily totals.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/ymmss/ymmss_comm_050611a.gif

From after I posted the original graph as above:
Isn't that first graph a classic bell curve, suggesting the trend will go downhill, or does ymmss not have to follow by the bell curve business model (if thats what it is...its been too long) and instead are they operating by a sin or cosin curve?
No, that isn't a classic bell curve. Classic bell curves don't have $5M chunks missing from their middles.

Other than that, yes, your memory of a classic bell curve is intact.
Well, i just meant that a bell curve is a depiction of the life of a business, product, etc. And with the highs and lows here and there, that is probably more accurate of a failed business than the bell curve. Of course, the bell curve would only give the general shape averaging everything out.

I understood what you meant, Dreamer. I was just trying to exercise a little humor in the middle of this mess. BTW, your thought of YMMSS trying to operate on a sin curve did it for me! lol

Salsa

[Arzel]

Sorry to hear about the death in your family Salsa.

I like your graphs. If you could add a couple overlay lines showing what you predicted compared to what actually happens that would be really neat.

There is an interesting development regarding the current cycle timess and commission stats. As most know http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not-updates.htm has been keeping track of current cycle times and commission stats and currently have them stated at 231 days and currently processing 10/22. However, the YMMSS links page (which has been slow lately to update their pages) has them processing 10/23 with a 230 day cycle time and no increase in cycle days for the past proccess time. It is possibly an error on the YM Links page, but considering the current state of cycle times, and the slowness to update cycle times and commission stats it is a little interesting.

I just caught the double meaning of sin curve. I need to stop always thinking mathmatically. :D

[surfer]

My condolences also Salsa.

Yes, the YMMSS links page is wrong. It looks like
Ronny updated the page almost immediately after
the YMMSS site came back up after processing.
They had a typo in the cycle times. It was
corrected several hours later to reflect 231 days.

I've never been good at reading graphs and charts. :)
Nice work. :applause:

[ycchen]

One way to read Salsa's graph is to look at the green and red lines. Around December 2004, the two lines meet (CT around 90 days), then they start to go apart exponentially. Before that, the income (sale of EPCs) is growing faster than the increase of CT (just compare the gradient of the two curves), that's where everyone is happy.

But after December 04, the pyramid structure of YMMSS passed a critical threshold, and it started to go apart. Relatively flat CT (gradient of red line before Dec 04) started to increase exponentially (curve upward), and it was worsen by the decrease of sales (green line go downward)! Unfortunately, Dec 04 is the point of no return. That is the beginning of the end of YMMSS, a fate shared by all ponzis. The maths has said it all, pure and simple. Great graph, Salsa!

Apart from the inevictable collapse of any ponzis, Kim also involves in manipulating the curves. If he has not taken 25% from the pool, the happy days might extend to Feb or March of 2005. Moreover, beside the known statistics, no one knows exactly how much Kim has taken in! He might has taken in MORE money than what he published! You never know, that's the bueaty of a blackbox operation -- an essence of any ponzi/pyramid scheme.

After stealing too much from the pool (and perhaps hidding too much under his pillow), the CT goes out of hand after Dec. 04. Kim waited for a few months to let the "noise" comes up (trust me, all the drama are designed by the conman) and creates a "stage of crisis", he then arbitrary throw back some stolen money in order to provoke his followers to donate irrationally (e.g. "united we donate" campaign). The idea is to squeeze as much as possible from his members, and ALSO, he want to keep YMMSS floating to avoid lawsuit filed by his hardcore followers. Will Kim's pathetic 300,000 stolen moeny helps flatten the CT line (stabilize the CT)? Of course NOT! It is simply ..... too late.

The ponzi (its pyramid structure, or unpaid members) has simply gone too big, so the debt-driven model (or ponzi) has gone to a point of no return. Any money that dump into the pool will simply dissappear. Even if Kim put back the 25% he steals from everyone, it won't help either.

YMMSS is dead. Any effort to rescue it = donation. The only way to get even (and justice) is to send the conman to jail!

Salsa, another assignment for you if I may. :) It should be a piece of cake. Could you plot a graph that show the date YMMSS is work on paying (X axis) and the CT (Y axis). In this way, it will give YMMSS members an idea of what we called "exponential increase of CT" even if the purchase of EPC keep constant. NOTE: in the current stage, the EPC purchase is actually dropping!!

[Salsa]

Ycchen, I did take your assignment to heart. As I understood it, however, it came out to be pretty much of a straight line--like the last few months of the actual cycle line, below. Not overly exciting. The rise of cycle times is limited to the calendar, so an exponential rise is not apparent with that data alone.

What I came up with, instead, was a calculation of what kind of cash flow would have been necessary in order to maintain cycle times at 90 days. Cycle times first exceeded 90 days back in November, 2004. In order to have kept them at 90 through the end of November, an additional $5.3M payout would have been necessary. December, even though it paid more than November, still had a shortfall of $9.9M. Skipping forward to June, 2005, the shortfall would have been $146M. Those aren't cumulative shortfalls but monthly shortfalls. The cumulative shortfall by the end of June would have been $439M. The below graph paints the rest of the picture.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/ymmss/ymmss_ideal_050626b.gif



Going off the graph, by next March, when the first $5M of weekly outside revenue is supposed to begin, the payout for the month would have to have been $2.8B in order to have maintained cycle times at 90 days all the while --with a cumulative total of $10B. (The graph to show it would have to be ten times as tall as the one above.)

Because EPC sales have been so terribly bad lately, it would not currently require quite that much cash to get cycle times back down to 90 days because it wouldn't be necessary to pay commissions on all those EPCs that weren't sold. BUT, to maintain cycle times at 90 days for any period of time, ever, the same sort of scenario as shown by the above graph would have to be turned into reality.

Salsa

[ycchen]

Great graph Salsa, thanks! YMMSS is the best example of how ponzis work or not work. Just look at the green line. That is an exponential curve! To keep paying on an exact date (90 days, 7 days... or whatever), the income from members needs to grow exponentially .

Unfortunately, this will only happen in the begining of any ponzi, but when the ponzi gets too big, member's donation decrease, and the ponzi start crashing down.

The trianglar area between the actual green line and the idea green line is the "hole" (deficit) of YMMSS to keep its promise (CT=90 days)!

Anyone who "donate" their money after Oct 2004, your only chance to see you money again is to request a refund or file a class lawsuit.

[Salsa]

I thought I'd bump this because the graph images in this thread have apparently been broken for some time (apparently deleted by a third party image host), and I suspect that a few people have come here looking for the graphs and were disappointed to not find them. (Even though the thread had drifted down to page two of this forum's threads, it has gotten 65 views just since I noticed the broken images, last night.)

On a current theme: In esto's thread, YMMSS and STA -- Just In Case Anyone Wants to be Bamboozled (http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2975), he's spoken of the remarkably successful first two years of YMMSS. However, a glance at the most recent graph in this thread shows that, in its first two years, YMMSS hardly even got started on its long-term promise. See the thin green line that barely moves above the zero Y axis? That's how superficial the YMMSS reality is and has always been.

When I look at the path of that thin green line, it reminds me of the Wright brothers' first flight. The engine revs as the plane accelerates down the ways. It lifts into the air some 20 feet. "We're flying! We're flying! Hey, hey! As long as we're up here, let's go to the moon!"

Sorry folks, airplanes aren't designed to go to the moon, and neither was YMMSS. It's flight is over and it's already bouncing along the ground.

If interested, I also fixed the image in The Magic of EPCs (for Kim) (http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2837).

Salsa
_________

[Searcher]

Anybody knows what is the current CT ? Thank you

[surfer]

Anybody knows what is the current CT ? Thank you
328 days.

[Searcher]

Hi surfer, thank you for the reply. Where can I get CT information update ? Since I think http://ymmss.youradmachine.com/ had eliminate the feature because YMMSS mod threat the site owner :(

[Arzel]

Hi surfer, thank you for the reply. Where can I get CT information update ? Since I think http://ymmss.youradmachine.com/ had eliminate the feature because YMMSS mod threat the site owner :(

Yes, nothing like YMMSS to tell one of their biggest supporters that they will drop him from YMMSS if he continues to provide information outside their veil of secrecy. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Anyway, this person at the work at home website has a ton of good information. http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

He/She has current cycle times as well as a running history of the cycle times for close to the past year.

[Searcher]

Yes, nothing like YMMSS to tell one of their biggest supporters that they will drop him from YMMSS if he continues to provide information outside their veil of secrecy. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Anyway, this person at the work at home website has a ton of good information. http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

He/She has current cycle times as well as a running history of the cycle times for close to the past year.

Hi Arzel, thank you for the link, another usefull site. I can't believe YMMSS still insist that CT will fix at 90 days :crazy:

[surfer]

I can't believe YMMSS still insist that CT will fix at 90 days :crazy:

When the new system is put into place,
cycle times will be fixed at 90 days.

This is because there is no money backing
the cycling of positions. So they could
have set the cycles at 90 days, 120 days,
whatever.........

Then after the position cycles to a 32, it
starts to get a share of the RFA.

That is one reason why so many affiliates
are worried about dilution. As more and
more EPCs mature, the share per position
will continue to drop.

[lionking]

surfer wrote:

That is one reason why so many affiliates
are worried about dilution. As more and
more EPCs mature, the share per position
will continue to drop.


Continue to drop? From where? $0.50?

lol lol lol

[surfer]

surfer wrote:




Continue to drop? From where? $0.50?

lol lol lol

From $3.09, of course. ;) lol :rolleyes:

[lionking]

From $3.09? You are TOO optimistic!!!

Don't count your socks until they are bought!!!

lol lol lol

[surfer]

You are TOO optimistic!!!

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't let any YMMSS supporters hear you
say that. I'm supposed to be "negative",
always viewing life from from the bottom
of my half empty glass. ;)

I haven't settled on a number yet. I still
have hope it will top 50 cents. This month
hasn't made it look too promising though.

[lionking]

surfer wrote:

Don't let any YMMSS supporters hear you
say that. I'm supposed to be "negative",
always viewing life from from the bottom
of my half empty glass.


I don't consider myself as "negative", just REALISTIC!

If someone can SHOW me calculations BASED on CURRENT
numbers in RFA and say 180k $320 positions to PROVE me
wrong, I'll gladly except it!!!

lol lol lol

[drzod]

I consider myself a realist as well. My take is that the glass is half empty, but I know how to fill it up.

In YMMSS/STA terms, that means I got out with my refund so that I did not have to deal with all this garbage.

Most people that I converse with that are still members are just hanging on hoping to recoup their original investment. I know of no one who believes they will make the $100 K Kim is "promising."

[swishnev]

from arzel's link: NOTE: I will be removing all pages concerning YMMSS by the end of October.

Anyone know the reason for this?

[ComplexKid]

He Who Walks On Water (or thinks he can, anyway) hath proclaimed that the name 'YMMSS' herefore and henceforth be banished forever from the Internet.

Good luck telling that to the folks at G-cache and the Wayback Machine, Kim, you're going to need it.

Exit strategy? Or have the real powers-that-be got interested in what Mr Inman is up to?

[Dreamer]

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/ymmss-commission-and-cycle-time-history.htm

Here is the site I use. Using 170k positions, the last 7 days paid out $152,420. Best case scenario is that if they were all $320 positions, each would pay $.90.

How much of that was recycled? No way to know for sure. But, lets say 15% (There is no reason why i picked that number, but I like that discount). That leaves the payout being $129,557 without the recyclers. Now, what percent of that payout was under the $320 mark? Well, 170,000 * $320 = $54million. The total payout is $95million. Thats about 57% of the total payout. I think 25% would be a good estimate for the number of positions that paid out that wasn't $320, so under the new system that wouldnt be considred. So, $129,557 * 75% = $97,167 payout for this week adjusting for no more recyclers, and no more considering under $320 as payouts.

Thats about $.60 per $320 share. I'm willing to bet anybody that it will be about $.60 for the first shares.

[BTCohen]

I'll bet you $320!

[surfer]

I'll bet you $320!
I suppose if he wins, you'll pay him
with PicPay. ;)

[lionking]

$.50 or $0.60...per $320!

lol lol lol

IS NOT THIS WONDERFUL?

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Dreamer]

I should change my prediction to be the 3rd week it will be $.60. I figure kimmy will hold back as much payments as he can so that when the switch is made it would seem a bigger number than reality. I figure it will take a few weeks or maybe a couple months max, for that ploy to be known.

The thing is, if he can hold back enough payments to make the first 2 weeks show a +$3.09/share people will think hes wonderful, that even is prediction of $3.09 was low, so maybe it will be $40million/week instead of $19million per week next year. So, they will start buying more and more worthless $10 shares.

Eventually, after awhile, holding back payments to have bigger paydays when the site switches will eventually show itself and I think than it will quickly drop to $.60 within a week.

[BTCohen]

Dreamer, it is difficult to read your posts without watching that poor little guy in the avatar.

[Dreamer]

that poor little guy probably has more substance to say than I do typically :)

[anonmouse]

When it drops to $0.60 a week as expected, and the ad business is exposed as a small-time sham, this will doubtless shake the 'faith' of some of the sheep and they might stop buying EPCs. Anyone else think that the whole thing might implode at this point ?

Of course, it will be the same old story, "you need to be positive, have faith, buy EPCs, wait wait wait wait wait....". The moderators at YM forums are going to be very busy !

I suppose a possible scenario (to avoid jail/lawsuits etc) might be that Kim halts the whole thing, deletes all EPCs that are in profit, and pays out cents on the dollar every month with his $300,000 "investment income" until everyone has at least broken even. That would be the hoped-for, honourable thing to do.

[BTCohen]

I think the best we can do is watch and see what happens. The new retail venture is an unknown, even to the YM affiliates. I tend towards pragmatism. Let's assess the facts after the launch.

It's all we have actually.

The YM retail mangers predict it will succeed. The majority of posters here reckon it will not succeed.

Both schools of thought are speculating.

Patience!!

[bowmaker]

ive been in the wait and see mode to long . everything i wait for takes for ever to show up , and when it finally does its nothing like was promised and when kim see's its a failure he gives everyone something else to look forward to .
wait for auction site to come and ad money to cpa...auction site came , no money added to cpa

wait for 300,000 a month to come and double every month there after ....it came and has never doubled.

wait for new servers to come so processing can be 5 days and ct will come down two days a week....new servers come and processing is still 3 days and ct is still rising .

wait for retail site to come and get paid weekly ..... ( speculation here )...retail site comes and people get paid once a year because it takes that long for the weekly pennies to add up to the $25 minimum payout .

etc..etc..

nothing has ever been as claimed it would be . if marks only job is to find income streams he's not doing very well as there is only 2 .

people wait and see but before they can realize they were conned another con is skillfully put in place to keep them hoping and dreaming and purchasing.

[AvidA]

I think the best we can do is watch and see what happens. The new retail venture is an unknown, even to the YM affiliates. I tend towards pragmatism. Let's assess the facts after the launch.

It's all we have actually.

The YM retail mangers predict it will succeed. The majority of posters here reckon it will not succeed.

Both schools of thought are speculating.

Patience!!

Pragmatist? "Antagonizer" would be a better adjective for you. :nono:

[BTCohen]

Avida, any chance of you not stalking me?

Next time you make a comment about me I'm making a complaint to the admins folk here. It's really out of order.

[AvidA]

I'm stalking you because I read the forums, too? Take your prozac. All I meant was that your constant cheering for YM is antagonistic to those of us who have heard "wait and see" long enough. And you know this. You need a chill pill.

[lionking]

AvidA,
this is not nice to tell BTCohen to take prozac.

This is DRUG with a lot of side effects...

But you can suggest him to take all natural St. John wart!
And you don't need to go to a freaking doctor!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

This is forum where he (or anybody else) has the
freedom of speech for a change!
But it would be nice if he could to back it up...

lol lol lol

[I'm_not_BTCohen]

Avida, any chance of you not stalking me?

Next time you make a comment about me I'm making a complaint to the admins folk here. It's really out of order.

Hey BT, If you're so sure Avida is stalking you, why don't you just start "Hiding Behind Anonimity"? lol I'm_not_BTCohen :D

[I'm_not_esto]

O.K. We've had our fun, but let's get back on topic. Shall we? Speaking of "cycle" times, I had heard some rumors that if Kim was going to take the money and run, he was going to legally change his name to Arthur Ponzarelli ("Ponzie" for short). It's also rumored that he's been seen riding around Indiana in a leather jacket and blue jeans, spending all of our money on burgers and malts. I wonder if he'll do any "shark jumping" down in Belize.
That would be cool....aaaaayyyyy. lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

[brenda]

i'm still in the wait and see mode. i'm waiting for the $19,000,000 :D

ive been in the wait and see mode to long . everything i wait for takes for ever to show up , and when it finally does its nothing like was promised and when kim see's its a failure he gives everyone something else to look forward to .
wait for auction site to come and ad money to cpa...auction site came , no money added to cpa

wait for 300,000 a month to come and double every month there after ....it came and has never doubled.

wait for new servers to come so processing can be 5 days and ct will come down two days a week....new servers come and processing is still 3 days and ct is still rising .

wait for retail site to come and get paid weekly ..... ( speculation here )...retail site comes and people get paid once a year because it takes that long for the weekly pennies to add up to the $25 minimum payout .

etc..etc..

nothing has ever been as claimed it would be . if marks only job is to find income streams he's not doing very well as there is only 2 .

people wait and see but before they can realize they were conned another con is skillfully put in place to keep them hoping and dreaming and purchasing.

[surfer]

I think the best we can do is watch and see what happens. The new retail venture is an unknown, even to the YM affiliates. I tend towards pragmatism. Let's assess the facts after the launch.

It's all we have actually.

The YM retail mangers predict it will succeed. The majority of posters here reckon it will not succeed.

Both schools of thought are speculating.

Patience!!

You can wait and see all you like BTCohen.

The lack of anything new and noteworthy
has already led to a few threads degenerating
here.

Even if the investment structure of YMMSS
were legal, it is unlikely that most players
will ever make a full-time wage from it.

It is still a deficit system where every EPC
purchased by affiliates becomes a liability to
the company.

The new system isn't that different from
the old system overall. If/when it launches,
people will finally see what the real cycle
times actually were with the old system.
That was from 6-12 years and climbing.

In a different thread I explained why I
believe that the new setup shows more
prominently how YMMSS-Success Through
Advertising can be viewed as an investment
program.

The fact that your income will be primarily
determined by how much money you spend
as opposed to how much effort you put into
it proves it.

Do you really think it matters whether your
returns are supposedly coming from profit
sharing of retail sales results or purely from
investment returns like the other ponzi you
say you have money in?

Whether it's IT4US, PIPS, PlexPay, YMMSS,
or any of the other ponzis/pyramids/doublers,
every spend by a member creates a financial
liability that burdens and eventually overloads
the system.

Both the old YMMSS and the new Success
Through Advertising take money from their
members by getting them to believe they
will develop a full time income doing nothing.

One thing we already know about the new
retail venture is that they are misleading
potential retailers about the true amount
paid out to affiliates.

Old or new, the lies continue. :nono:

And what else would you expect the
retail managers to say?

I don't doubt that the ad site will get
some clients. Hell, they might even do
fairly well for a while.

But is it going to be enough to create
a full time lifestyle for 100K members?

Did the dozen or so brick and mortar
businesses that Bryan Marsden supposedly
ran create enough revenue to pay his
PIPS followers what they were promised?

The income expectations continue to be
set far too high in an effort to suck more
money out of the member base.

They are called confidence men for a reason.

[Kim_Inmans_Butt]

Confidence tricksters one and all. I see the domain name ymmsssucks.com is available, maybe I'll purchase it.

[I'm_not_esto]

Still, I'm_not_esto. Arzel is good.

[Leonidas]

I think the best we can do is watch and see what happens. The new retail venture is an unknown, even to the YM affiliates. I tend towards pragmatism. Let's assess the facts after the launch.

It's all we have actually.

The YM retail mangers predict it will succeed. The majority of posters here reckon it will not succeed.

Both schools of thought are speculating.

Patience!!

Surely your not talking about the regional managers with all, I mean no experience, that were simply chosen from the pool of YMMSS cheerleaders who were some of the first to get in and actually make money before the whole thing hit a brick wall.

I think global warming is going to flood everything west of the Mississippi, so I have some ocean front property that I will sell you in Illinois, It will be expensive because you will be right on the ocean! No I don't have any experience in global warming, but I predict it will happen. But go ahead and buy my property now before and just have patience. It will happen!! :rolleyes:

L

[AvidA]

Be careful! BT will probably want to buy it! lol lol lol