YMMSS outside income sources

[surfer]

First off, there is no intelligent business owner
in the world that would believe it's wise to use
outside revenue sources to sustain his business
long term.

If you need to do that, it means that your
business is not profitable in and of itself.

Using money acrued from investments makes
sense when you're starting up a business, but
you shouldn't need outside revenues to pay
employees/contractors if your enterprise is
successful.

This seems to be the popular trend in the new
ponzi/doubler/hyip scams.

A real business might use this strategy for
start up and to sustain in the short term while the
company builds up to profitability. YMMSS and all
of these other ponzi's seem to work backwards.
They start out profitably by promising all of these
great returns on your investment and then claim
they will be able to sustain the income that you
are promised by using outside revenues.

Of course, the bulk of these outside sources of
revenues are always top secret and apparently
only those who run ponzi schemes are able to
find these investment opportunities that have
such enormous returns.

With YMMSS, the only verifiable outside revenues
at the moment are some of the fees collected through
the payment processors on initial EPC purchases,
the Belize resort, and a couple affiliate programs.

Combined, the profits from these wouldn't even
pay a weeks worth of the commissions due at this
stage. So that leaves us with these incredible
investment returns that are apparently infallible.

Currently, Kim is claiming that outside investments
are contributing around $70K/week to the commission
pool.

A couple months ago, something was announced that
will supposedly bring in $16-$18 million/week or close
to $1 billion/ year.

A few short weeks ago, yet another project was
supposedly put in place that cost around $2 million
and will reportedly contribute roughly that same
amount per week to the commission pool within 12
short months.

Even if these investments were real, how risky must
they be to have such outstanding returns?

And if these investment opportunities can be so
easily found by every two-bit ponzi promoter on the
net, why aren't people like Bill Gates, Donald Trump,
et al. worth trillions of dollars by now?

No successful business needs to be propped up and
kept alive with outside revenue. In the real business
world, that is throwing good money after bad.

[Dreamer]

I knew of one business owner who got himself a job to pay for the failure of his shop. Why did he do that? He loved his business. He wasnt in the business to make money. He loved what he was doing, and when that was no longer paying his bills, instead of closing shop and finding a real job, he did both.

Now, there are some times that I'm willing to bank on that needing another stream of money coming into the business is wise. Lets say you anticipating a very large chirstmas this year, however, its mid july and the last customer you saw was 4 hours ago. If you close shop now, there goes your christmas. So, find another job to keep the shop open until christmas than have a closing sale on new years.

I think that is a possibility. The real world people take out loans to support their growing business.

So, there is 2 reason I can think of that kim might do this:

1. He honestly believes he can can people to advertise on his site, however, it is still some time away and if the current situation is left to continue than ymmss might not be in business when the retail side kicks in. Maybe he really believes he can make a ponzi work, just needs a little bit more time.

I dont see this as the case, because, lets say he wants a business that will take in $1million a year. If he turns over his inventory 4x a year, he will still need to sit on $250,000 in inventory at all times, and if he doubles the price of cost, than that $1million is only really $500,000 - inventory, which is only $250,000, assuming his inventory moves. Pay a couple of employees $1k/month, pay rent and electricity. Pay for local advertising, not no stupid ymmss advertising. That $1million comes down to probably around $175,000 a year profit. Thats assuming perfect condition, no inventory shrinkage, always having products that only sell and never sit. Take into consideration taxes, insurance, and personal living costs (morgage, gas in car, clothes), Its probably only about $100,000 a year now. $100k/12months is nowhere near the awsome $60k a week now.

2. My opinion is its all about kim and what kim can get. Remember, everybody bought something valuable - EPCs. ymmss is not a failure to kim so long as he gets his 20% per thing purchased. He can keep the site running forever at that rate. And thats if he doesnt steal the money that floating around in there. Kim got a hotel. Now has a retail business. Next proably a car dealership so he can steal himself a car.

The truth is, the kim fanatics probably think its a great thing that hes willing to do this for them. Has there ever been any proof that there has been money going into the system that wasnt based on epc purchases? Like where is the paper trail for the 60k/week?

[surfer]

Is that owner's shop still in business? And does/did he have
any employees?

I think we're actually talking two different things Dreamer.

Yes, you use loans and other revenues to expand a business,
i.e. buying new equipment, bigger offices, etc. We're talking
tangible goods that are used to expand a thriving business.

But do you think it would be wise to use these revenues to
meet payroll consistently? If you can't meet payroll in a
business, you either need to eliminate some jobs or change
the pay structure.

[Dreamer]

Oh, i know we are talking about 2 differnt things. Just giving my perspective.

I moved like 6 months ago, and he was still in business. He was doing it for a couple of years. I think his employees were his kids.

That said, I was giving an example of why a business might look for more ways of income coming in. Now, starting up ANOTHER business to help a failing business...nobody does that. It does not make any sence to do that.

I suppose I could come up with the same argument. I love my business so much, that even though Im not making any money today, I have faith that one day it will make money, so I'm going to open up a secod business to help cover the losses of the first business so I can keep my failure.

That doesn't sound so bad, except now I'm going to work twice as hard to break even, whereas if I gave up my first business, I could have a normal work week and actually turn a profit.

[homeworker]

knowing all this i would like to point towards a thread in the public forum where members and mods are answering questions from a sceptic person. this will give a good impression of the misunderstanding and the distraction from members about YMMSS and their business:

http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13093

notice that the verry first answer he gets to the questions is:
- Very little of YMMSS money is dependent on the members....

how can someone say that in the first place when the business frankly depends on members money only? isnt that amazing? This is said by a YMMSS member..... talking about distraction. but it is somehow beeing corrected by the mods in the next post.

also notice that the questions arent even beeing answered in some sort of way because they simply cant (well at least not the REAL answers). When questions are beeing asked about the Math NO answers are given.... only more hype and more distraction about investments that bring in $19.000.000 a week and the retail site that brings in $1.000.000 a week.

and in the meanwhile people are talking about doing DD by asking questions on their own forum....... i am stunned.

THINK before you join.

[surfer]

Yeah, I saw that thread homeworker.

A lot of skeptics actually know more about YMMSS
than many of it's own members.

Back to outside income resources...................

Supposedly, in less than 30 days there will be outside
income coming in that will be making a "serious and
positive" impact on cycle times. I guess we'll know
in only 4 short weeks if this is yet another stall tactic.

[surfer]

I'm guessing that the latest phenomenal outside
income source announced is the one being referred
to in the previous post here.

Beginning in mid-May, YMMSS will be receiving an
income stream that will start at $300K per week
and double every 3 weeks at least 4 times.

So........
weeks 1 through 3.......$300K per week
weeks 4 through 6.......$600K per week
weeks 7 through 9.......$1.2M per week
weeks 10 though 12.....$2.4M per week

It's a bit sketchy after that on whether
it will keep double or continue at all and
at what amount.

Of course, these glorious returns are all
generous provided by Kim Inman using
"his money" with no risk to the YMMSS
membership.

The double talk is that while Kim claims
that these investments are "no risk" to
the membership, he is using the promised
returns from these investments to lure
people in to joining YMMSS.

Let's see, with these three "projected"
income sources that supposedly will bring
in a combined $23M+/week to the
commission pool in less than 18 months
being used as recruiting tools to con people
into joining, doesn't it seem that the
membership would be very much
affected if these "no risk" investments
don't come through as promised?

With their uncanny ability to find all these
wonderful investments, we should
definitely see Kim Inman's name among
the world's billionaires (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/03/09/bill05land.html) in just another year or
two. :bow:

[ycchen]

If YMMSS does have legitimate outside source (still a company secret so far :D), then why Kim need to rely on his own money (from the 20% profit, I guess) to stabalized the cycle time?!! It is obvious that that any legitimate outside income is fictional. That is the main reason why he needs to put his scammed money back into the pool.

Wait, do you really think he will put his profit back to the pool? Or may be he is executing his exit plan by creating a "bright future" to lure customers to buy more EPCs NOW?! The logic is simple. If you buy now, then you will be cycled by the 2.4 million that Kim donate AFTER you!

surfer, I have a bad feeling that this might be THE exit plan. :(

[surfer]

The backward nature of using outside income to
sustain a failing business model is the whole point
of this thread.
surfer, I have a bad feeling that this might be THE exit plan..

We'll know soon enough.

[Dreamer]

I know it goes without saying, so I'm going to mention it. Kim can convince the biggest companies out there to advertise with him for multimillion dollars, however that doesnt guarantee that any of that money will ever go in the pool. Why should it when Kim has a bank account? He is making no effort to show that indeed he is putting back 75% of member purchases into the pool of that any outside sources are being put into the sytem. I think it would be killer for him if he fudged the numbers and dropped the cycle down to 90 days again, but that would mean alot of money would come out of his pocket, but I think that would lead to alot more faith in int business.

ycchen - I dont think this is the exit plan. I dont think an exit plan exists. The cycle time can increase to 90 years and so long as there is somebody suckered into joining or a current member stupid enough to be happy at such a low cycle time, kim is making money. Remember, its all about kim, and since his business is in belize, he doesnt need an exit program.

[Arzel]

Although not my typical belief regarding these schemes, I tend to believe with Dreamer regarding the exit plan.

The YMMSS strategy is quite simple yet elegant in the way it has been marketed. It seems that a good number of members have simple bought so many positions in the matrix that they cycle almost every single day. They in turn use this as a fall back on the increasing cycle times "Don't worry about the cycle time, simpley cover every day in a cycle and you will always be cycling".

Obviously there is still a fundemental flaw to this reasoning because as cycle time increase the number of positions required to fill each cycle day increases at a rate slightly slower than the cycle day increases. Members will still have to purchase positions to cover the every increasing cycle run, but they are being lead in a different view point.

Whether they can convince the vast majority to continue to purchase positions to cover the entire cycle run is still uncertain, but my guess is that they will not. It is quite apparent that a good number have stopped purchasing on a regular basis because of the ever increasing cycle times and this is only contributing to the problem.

Back to the outside revenue aspect. I find it very interesting that there seems to be no questions regarding the nature of the outside revenue to begin in May. $300k to $600k to $1.2 Million to $2.4 Million over a period of 12 weeks is quite interesting. Kim has apparently found an outside investment which will not only double every 21 days, but will actually be multiplied by 45 times over a period of 83 days! This is just not possible, but the lemmings seem to be really lapping it up.

Just as all of the other excuses regarding servers, connection problems, website hackings, ect I imagine that there will be some new exuse when the new outside revenue doesn't appear.

[surfer]

Well, it was

Beginning in mid-May, YMMSS will be receiving an
income stream that will start at $300K per week
and double every 3 weeks at least 4 times.

So........
weeks 1 through 3.......$300K per week
weeks 4 through 6.......$600K per week
weeks 7 through 9.......$1.2M per week
weeks 10 though 12.....$2.4M per week

But now it's............

months 1 and 2..........$300K per month
months 3 and 4..........$600K per month
months 5 and beyond are still being solidified
and they'll let people know within 2 weeks.

Reason given for this drastic change was
This is because Mark said he needs to keep the money coming to our commission pool for a longer period of time & it will also be a less risky venture this way, too. (Spread out further to last longer).
or could it be because the earlier stated claims
would have made a noticeable impact on cycle
times? But by making such a major change, they
will still be able to claim outside funds are coming
in, but it will make almost no impact on rising
cycle times.

Is it real, or just another way to string people
out as long as possible?

[Arzel]

I believe it is simply a ploy to drag people along. Every day it is the same story, "Things are going to start happening soon".

There have been many interesting things going on with YMMSS the past few days.

After staying constant for a couple days the cycle times have increased 3 days to 182 days. This is blamed largely on the recent issues regarding purchases over the past weekend, and just another sign that the vast majority of income is coming from member purchases.

Credit card purchases of approximately 1,600 transactions were denied over the weekend due to increased security issues, sounds like they could be having additional problems with credit card payment systems.

Robert Nillson appeared on the scam.com boards to defend the business and Kim. As one of the biggest boosters of YMMSS they(he) apparently thought it would be PR to post on the forum.

They have made a number of security changes to their system, some of which seem to be quite arcane (send a copy of your driver's licence). It has become noticable that many members have stopped their automatic purchases over the past few weeks, one wonders if the increased security (supposedly because some members have had accounts compromised) is to make changes to their account more difficult.

As usual the YM boards are still spewing their quotes of "Have Faith!" with very little mention of the further increasing cycle times. Based off the few comments available the cycle times will increase another 2 or 3 days with the next process on wednesday.

Their new servers are still 3 to 4 weeks out.

I think the wheels are really starting to fall off YMMSS.

[Dreamer]

While very basic, I know these posts will be deleted, so i thought i'd preserve them for grass root common sence

CT will not come down anytime soon but will continue to go up. It will be easier to describe it in supply and demand. The basics of economic. Lets say existing members are demands and new comers are supplys.Everytimes it cycle demand will double therefore supply must double to keep up with demand.

1st cycle: existing members=new comers (1:1) ratio

2nd cycle:2x(existing members)=2x(new comers)

plus

existing new comers=new comers

If you plug in the numbers,supply will have a hard time catching up with demand.In a bubble or a perfect environment, this might work. But reality it will not . The bigger demand gets the longer supply will catch up.

ScottD

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:35 am
tnungent,

Have you even read all the posts in this thread?
Please do and you will see why your statement is wrong on so many levels

Regards,
Scott

tnugent
Guest

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:51 am
At this point in time,YM has encountered this problem already. There are not enought supply to feed YM to keep CT in check. Therefore CT will continue to increase(probably over 356).And if it cycle then , who knows when its going to cycle next(probably 3 years).

Guest
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:11 pm
Actually, his post is not so far incorrect. Unfortunately, we do not have all the numbers necessary, but in a perfect ponzi system, that is what is described.

There are 2 assumptions he made in his simplistic analysis:

1. The bubble is perfect without any moneys coming in or going out, except for purchases of new members.

In order for this to be accurate the amount put into the system by outside sources would have to equal the 25% taken out of the system by management at the time money is *******. A moderator guestamated before that probably 90% of the moneys paid out come from purchases of new members. Now im not going to hold him to his word since the owner doesnt even give the figures to the moderators, but at that there is a -15% money stream exiting the system rathar than coming in. A ponzi is a much more effective of a setup.

Using kims own numbers, he said before that $60,000 per week is coming in from outside sources. The payouts for the previous week ws about 1.2million, and 60,000 is about 5% of total payouts.

So, the numbers is just a little more optimistic than reality because there is more money being funneled out of the system than being put in.

2. The second assumption made didn't consider member repurchases. Howerver, if 10 people each have $1, than no matter how many times they pass it around themselves a total of $10 still remains the total worth. Of course, one person might have $2 at a moment, but that will also pass once he puts it back into the system.