Is YMMSS a scam?

[25baY]

Hi! :) I'm wondering if YMMSS is a scam. My friend is trying to get me into this, but I don't really want to. What do ya'll think? Thanks.

:confused: 25baY :confused:

[sisco50]

I wouldn't do it! :(

[surfer]

Hello 25baY.

I'm sure if you read through various threads in
this forum, you can figure out what the general
consensus is.

Programs that make income guarantees like
YMMSS does never last long term.

YMMSS has done very well to last over 2 1/2
years, but the math seems to finally be catching
up to it.

[Arzel]

I love it when members of a scam try to prove that they are not part of a scam. Here is a post directly from the YMMSS forum boards defending their business and why it is not a scam. My comments will be in Blue

Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:09 am Post subject: Our Success Program Compared to Ponzi Schemes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anonymous wrote:
So, where is your wonderful analysis that it isnt a ponzi?



You are the one who said it was wonderful. I would be content with the admission that it is accurate and at least mildly persuasive. Best, S

Our Success Program Compared to Ponzi Schemes

For many longer-term YMMSS members, an update showing we are not a Ponzi Scheme is needless. Our attorney has already given his public assurance that we do not in any way resemble either a Ponzi or Pyramid scheme.

But how do YOU answer someone says of YMMSS, "Sounds like a Ponzi Scheme to me!"

With so many people are questioning whether YMMSS appears to be a Ponzi I find it incredulous that they have a real attourney provide assurance that it is not in any way when the facts are so obvious that it does look and resemble a Pyramid/Ponzi scheme

My answer:

Here is what one site says on the subject:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ponzi_scheme

It says a "Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying returns to investors out of the money raised from subsequent investors."

Well, YMMSS is not an investment operation.

Just because they don't call it an investment operation doesn't change the fact that everyone involved is involved because they can turn $10 to $320 into thousands of dollars in a very short period of time. If that doesn't sound like and investment then I don't know what it sounds like

You purchase advertising upon which a generous commission is paid.

Just like a matrix, the advertising is the basically worthless item sold in order to give it the feel of being legitimate

It says a Ponzi Scheme cultivates greed and "perpetuates itself using envy".

YMMSS depends on cooperation, teamwork and a commitment to civil and supportive community.

Envy and greed have no place here.

What a bunch of BS

It says a Ponzi Scheme encourages more and more investment.

YMMSS's generous commissions make it impossible, over time, to outstrip income with added ad purchases. In point of fact YMMSS encourages mainly entry with a $10 purchase, from which one can develop a good income.

This one really baffles me. The main point mentioned in the conference calls is "Keep making those regular purchases. If possible make enough so that you have every cycle day covered so that you don't have to worry about cycle times." Seems like the very definition of a Ponzi scheme. I am not sure what point Esto was trying to make about outstripping income, it makes no sense to me.

It says Ponzi Schemes require "incoming investment money" to pay earlier investors.

All or half of YMMSS members' commissions recycle, each and every processing. This the basis of our system. YMMSS uses a portion of its income to develop added sources of income but this is in the nature of diversification in order to maintain a capacity to operate when business is good and when it is not. YMMSS requires consistent purchasesof its advertising product to succeed and naturally, like all business, thrives as it grows.

A further aspect of YMMSS is its business plan which assumes a confluence between growing membership and viability as a seller of retail advertising which membership reads or views as part of its obligation.

This can hardly be seen as "incoming investment money". It is much more understandable as a logical outgrowth of building an ever-larger membership whose purpose is to make the sale of advertising to retail marketers an attractive proposition. One has little doubt that such a business plan will be widely imitated over time.

Blah Blah Blah, another pile here. I am not sure what Esto is trying to say, but just reading it makes my head spin as it makes no sense, just a collection of run-on sentences. It is quite clear the future investment pays current investors. Now most of them reinvest into the scam, but since it is obvious that almost all of the commision payouts come from new purchases this is another direct interpretation of a Ponzi scam.

It says in Ponzi Schemes "at some point ... the operators disappear taking all of the capital amassed with them."

Kim Inman and his family have been vetted in every possible way and have come up with an A+ rating. Kim has suffered criticism for mis-stating time goals on forthcoming enhancements and that has had some justification. His record on the score of caring for the good of all members and for exceptional generosity on the financial front has never been questioned.

Actually Charles Ponzi, for whom the scam is named, never ran off. He was so in love with the gratitude given to him by investors he stuck it out until he had nothing. Many wonder why he didn't just bail earlier when he could have.

Will Kim do the same? Stick it out until there is nothing left, or bail to his resort on Belize? Only time will tell, but either way there is NO set rule to which a Ponzi scheme must end.

It says Ponzi Schemes offer larger returns for larger expenditures.


YMMSS offers the same return for any amount spent on its advertising product. 100% commission every cycle. Whether one spends $10 of $100,000 on EPCs, the gain is exactly the same. And no one is encouraging anyone to spend at any particular level.

Esto must not be thinking straight. Part of the reason for the increased cycle times is because a large group of people bought in at the highest level ($320) right away last fall, and are now taking a ton of money out of the system.

Here is another site which is devoted to defining a Ponzi Scheme:

http://www.webguru.com/fraud-ponzi-scheme.htm

It says Ponzi Schemes disguise their actual operations.

YMMSS is transparent. Members are informed of all decisions and business operations with the exception of some involvements which are regarded as proprietary, though they are ethical, moral and legal. An example might be involvement in a short term financial instrument.

This one makes me laugh. What are the outside sources of income? "Sorry, we can't let you know." What is being done to reduce cycle times? "There are some unbelievable things coming in the near future, you will just have to wait and see." How much outside revenue is currently coming in? "Well it is about, well I am not quite sure, but in a few months it will be over one million dollars a week!" Wow, what is that? "Sorry, you will just have to wait."

Kim inman is actually most forthcoming about all but a handful of YMMSS activities on the admin side. Feedback and a remarkable degree of open communication with the head of YMMSS are built into our system. Since this was written, the most conspicuous development has been the addition of members to the general leadership of YMMSS. This includes staff and volunteers who play key roles.

Our Discussion Forums are related to this development, exemplifying both the concept opf layered leadership and openness to all views.

Sure they are open, but it is always the same answer. "Things will be happening soon." "The servers will be up soon." "The retail site will be up soon." "We will have our own credit card processor soon." "The outside investments will be paying out soon." Soon Soon Soon, they can never give a very good estimate.

Slightly off this topic, but one person asked what the long term goals (5 years) were in a conference call. Kim's response was "Well, um, I think in terms of short term, like soon we will have the servers up, and the retail site will be going, and some really incredible things will be happening within the year." Caller, "But what about 5 years from now?" Kim, "Well we will be a $1 billion strong group of individuals by then, that is my plan." Yeah....good plan.

It says, "The heart of a Ponzi Scheme [is] using the money of late investors to pay the profits of the early ones, and when the supply of investors runs out it all collapses."

That is like saying that McDonald's relies on food purchases to ensure that stockholders are paid. There is a huge difference between being insolvent without the addition of new money and depending on a degree of growth and participation. The latter is a requirement of all businesses.

In addition in YMMSS the recycling of more than half of commission payments within the system is the very opposite of using all money that comes in to pay out to members. That would be a recipe for suicide. The reason YMMSS works is that it is a continually cycling system in which members themselves increase their participation and, as they prosper, extend a helping hand so that other members can also prosper.

I don't know why YMMSS continues to compare McDonalds french fry sales to YMMSS advertisement sales. Their comparisons are completely out of context.

Finally, it says: "One simple rule ... If you cannot understand where the profits are coming from, then it is probably a scam."

Well, we DO understand.

Profits in YMMSS are the product of 100% and 50% recycling of commissions, of member participation, of member patience and company transparency. Plus, continued creation of added value - new income streams from complementary businesses and the likely growth and success of our retail ad business.

Huh?

Just more proof that YMMSS is a Ponzi.

[Dreamer]

This will be deleted off the site, so here my analysis when its way past my bedtime

Im not here to attack anybody or the busines, but my focus will be to attack the statement using my own logic and opinion to show where my stance. My goal isn't to convert anybody or anything, but to point out where flaws are.

***

There are 2 distinct seperate aspects of YMMSS, and while they are more intertwined, but in the way that is not shown, for the moment I will seperate them.

***

Advertising

Advertising, like any other comodotiy that is commonly bought and sold, follow the same laws of supply and demand and market conditions. Now, since advertising is sucha broad concept encompasing tv, radio, print, magazines, billboards, bumper stickers, online, everything, I'll concentrate with the type of advertising most closest to YMMSS.

The basics of supply and demand suggest, usually, that as as price increases demand decreases. This accounts for probably 99% of the market. For sake of argument, the few items that actually increase in demand are typically luxury items where the increase in sticker price increases the prestige of it and the demand for it. A $200,000 luxury car today might be in higher demand for next years $250,000 model because it might get converts from other luxury cars to get the very best out there.

Everybody should understand the concept of price shopping. Of course, getting the cheapest price doesnt necessarily mean more sales. I personally prefer to do business with a place where I get much better customer service and a knowledgeable sales staff, and price is the last consideration. I seem to be contridicting myself here, but the range of prices, on average, where I shop is about 30%. On impulse buys, I've spend upwards of 100% over average retial price for a product, without knowing what other prices where, but i never shopped there again. Now, there are times I will happily pay a high premium for an item, if I can get it right than and there, or it fits another of my criteria.

Now I would like to think that Im an average consumer. Nothing special about me. Ive done classified advertising. I placed one ad for like $5 (its been so long i dont remember) and sold exactly one product making $20. I didnt sell anymore because i sold exactly what I wanted to sell. But, I'm not comparing YMMSS to newspaper classifieds.

I placed one free ad in a news paper just devoted to classifieds (the recyler) where individuals can place ads for free (businesses have to pay) and people pay like $2 to buy this newspaper. The people buying the newspaper buy it just for the ads, since that is the only part of the paper. They have 30 years of classifieds experience, serve 100,000 new ads daily, and i can probably get you the print run for sales in papers and unique hits on the website. My free ad got me about a dozen interested people wanting to buy my laptop.

eBay I've have very good experience with. I've sold thousands of items for the cost of less than $1 a piece turning over a good profit on many products and getting rid of product that wasnt moving.

My own personal website, while it didn't get as many sales as eBay, the nice thing is I've made sales of our product with keyword search off yahoo for our inventory.

To round out, magazine advertising was a staple and good, tv worthless, radio not good.

Now, would I consider YMMSS? No. Even for free, I couldnt. On a website and eBay I can design as large and comprehensive of an ad as I want, include graphichs, music, javascript, and basic eye candy. These are all elements that sell. I might try the recycler again because there is the web edition and the print edition, however, because Im limited in my display I might not consider it. The difference between YMMSS and real advertising, is the potential market of those who view it. As a website, my potential market are the millions of people who sign on every day. If they are interested in a prdouct I had, they might find me. eBay has a great market place of people who go there just to buy.

The even be considered for even free advertising, YMMSS must do a few basic things:

1. Allow a full page ad that can include graphics, music, video, javascript, jss, cgi, everything.

2. Have all ads viewable to members and non members. I will not advertise on a site with minimal viewings.

So, why would anybody pay $10 for an ad when they can use a competitor that is much more successful? There is no reason. Here are the logical flaws:

1. There is no reason why people would post an ad to announce they just got a kitty cat. Any ads that dont sell a product or a service would be better suited to be put on a free forum for that particular interest. Post the picture of your cat on a cat forum where people will actually go there to look at it.

2. For a product or service to be sold, it is assumd that the cost of the advertising plus the final sale price of the product is equal or more than the original cost, or fair market cost of the prduct. Meaning a $100 item should sell for at least $110 if the cost of the ad is $10. I'm not going to sell my car for $10,000 paying $25,000 for the ad. Likewise, I'm not going to settle making a whole $5 for an ad that cost me $10.

Now, it becomes obvious when a means of advertising no longer works because people are no longer advertising with them. If you want to sell kids in your local newspaper classified and nobody else is selling kids clothes, there must be a reason. eBay was not the first online auction place. My first laptop I purchased was from auctionworld or an auction place online before eBay was around. The difference was that this site wa designed for businesses to sell their product at auction to consumers. It was a good concept, but they haven't been around in too many years.

So, what are the success rate of YMMSS advertising? Well, I have no clue because I cannot even see the ads.

But none of this is here or there. The truth of the matter of thi is that if somebod spends $320 on advertising, it should be obvious that a minimum they should make back, just from advertising, is $320, and truthfully, it should be much more than that. I'm not going to spend $320 selling product just to break even on advertising expenditures and product short.

Is this the case? I highly doubt it. Now, I"m sure there are people on YMMSS that are making good money on just the advertising. However, i know thats far from the norm. There is still not a testimonals section for advertising. Why not? And if people were making the assumed money on the advertising portion that would be a selling point. Not only can we double your money in 60-90 days, but most of our people are doubling their money just on sales from advertising. But, that cant even really happen for a majority of the people since the money is only coming from other members and not outside the "club".

***

This about raps up my original opinion on the advertising portion of YMMSS. Am I far off in my assessment? I dont want faith based answers but realistic logic based answers. Remove yourself from YMMSS If you answer this question and tell me if im wrong with a similiar advertising business with whatever successes people are having.

***

The Business

But wait, thats not the true spirit of YMMSS. We are being paid to read advertising! Wait, the math doesnt add up here. In what ways are earnings earned? By the hour? No, everybody works for 30 minutes a week. And if you work an hour a week you wont make double than what others are making. You dont get paid on the amount of ads you read. You can be on the same ad (yours that you posted) and still satsify the conditions. It doesnt matter how many you read, or if you respond to any of them. There is no logical rhym or reason why somebody is getting paid $100,000 every 90 days while somebody doing the same job for the same time, or even longer or better, is only making $10.

Well, the obvious answer is the amount of EPCs you purchased. So, they arent 2 seperate entities. But they are sepearate entities that we can now introduce consideration into the formula. Do people buy the EPCs in consideraton of the business, or do people start up the business in consideration of the EPCs? Well, you cant start the business without buying the EPCs, so the EPCs are purchased with consideration of making money on the business.

What is consideration? Well, as kids, I personally wanted that box of cereal cuz it had a real good toy inside of it. I remember one box had foreign money inside of it, and as a young coin collector, it didn't matter how bad the cereal was, i got to add something to my collection. But the consideration of this item was worth less than the $3 box of cereal. The value of the free item might be worth a quarter. Even sodas where you can win a free soda or a free car. But over the comple sales of the product (the millions of sodas sold) the amount of give aways is significiently less than the value of the original product.

***

Ponzi

So if this was an honest and ethical business, why isnt there 2 distinct items here? The advertising and the business? Shouldnt each of them beable to stand on its own and hold its own weight? Well, because the advertising is just a front for the ponzi.

I'm not going to quote the definition of a ponzi and prove each individual sentence how it applies. A ponzi is a system such that earlier investors are paid off by later investors. Now because YMMSS members decide to recycle their money back into the system does not distinguish itself from a ponzi because people in ponzi systems do it all the time because they were already paid a few times so they want to get paid more. If i put $10,000 into a program that managed to pay me back $20,000 in 6 months, I would be a fool not to put in $10,000 more. If it looks strong, I might put in the whole $20,000, and if it looks weak I might put in only $5000 satisfying myself with a nice guaranteed $5000 profit in 6 months and potentially more if it remains strong.

So, is it a ponzi? A ponzi would be a more successful setup currently that the current YMMSS setup. If admin is taking out 25% per sale and only 5% is going back into the system from outside sources, much more than double will have to be earned to pay it back. That is probably how kim came up with the idea of this program. He wanted to make a ponzi work. To have a ponzi pay off the members until a good amount of members joined and than retailers would continue to pay them off.

There is no significent ouside sources going into the pool to differentiate it from a ponzi. In fact there is not even enough money going into the system from the outside than is being taken out by the inside. Now, I'm not going to argue the future of YMMSS since its in the future and not the present. I'm argying the present.

And the other argument typical of ponzis is that there is a prdoduct sold. In this case valuable EPCs But is anybody making money on them? I'm sure a couple people are. But people are buying the EPCs for consideration of the doubler. Call me a liar and point so some successful person? Fine. If people are buying EPCs than what is the point of talking about cycle times? After all your buying something so it shouldnt matter if you earn money or not. And thats typically what people tell just as soon as the business colapses. You got what you paid for...EPCs.

The truth is the extraordinary cost to advertise with ymmss isnt worth it because you can get much better results at better places.

So, the main selling point of mostly worthless (by my own analysis above - not a degrading word for this business but as a truthful word for the success rate of the sales from said EPCs) is consideration of doubling. Well, whats wrong with that? The doubling is a freebie, no? A classic example is a prostitute selling a $5 bottle of chaimpaigne for $500 and the sex is free afterwards. Or the hitman that charges $10,000 for phone consultation with a client to offer the hit for free.

***

If anybody would like me to elaberate on any point, I will be more than happy to, but I wont bore more opinion in this post. I'm just going to respond to individual items

Our lawyer says this. If i paid my lawyer a million dollars i can get him to say anything i want. I've never met your lawyer and i dont even know if he exists. I dont even know what part of law he specializes in and what country he represents. I would be more interested in hearing what the BBB of the city state and country I live in to say what their opinion is. I can get 2 lawyers to say both it is a ponzi and not a ponzi and both would be right. My brother is a doctor, so I suppose I could ask him his opinions on techniques of open heart surgery, but considering he got his doctoral in pharmacy I doubt he will have much a valuable opinon besides the best pharmaticual that the patient should take before or after.

So, what are the credentials of said attonrey? Where are they located? What are the specilities? Are they working for YMMSS now. If so, I will disregard any legal advice they may give. Are they independant of ymmss and capable of giving an honest assessment? And why should i value this persons opinion more than anybody elses?

Its an advertising businesThan ask to have your positions removed from the cycle.

kim is honest trustwor etcall con men appear to be

Kim makes himself available everyweekYMMSS members have already given him $20,000,000 so wouldnt you make yourslef available?

Its too late, i forgot what my points were

***

Even when advertisers come on board, it is assumed that they will want at least 100% their money back on sales. Anything less people will not want to advertise and would rather advertise elsewhere to a bigger and wider audiance.

Now, make no mistake. My opinion is today, not tomorrow. I really hopes it pays off for all of its members. If it ever gets down to 60 days again, I will join. but I doubt I'll ever be a member.

[Arzel]

Good call on making a copy of that post, the YMMSS forums are deleting threads on a regular basis.

Last night I listened to both the Thursday night recording and also watched a story on the rise and fall of Enron.

The YMMSS conference call was the same BS it always is, nothing more than a huge pep-rally. Talk about how YMMSS is larger than Ebay was at this point in its history. Talk about how Kim idolizes the GM model of diversification into several entities. Lots of talk about how various income streams will be coming into the system. Talk about how people don't understand the business model because they don't look at the big picture of how all the different aspects will provide income to the commisions payable. Talk about a ybay company (some new Ebay like company). Talk about a TV station.

Talk Talk Talk and little real answers to the rise of the cycle times other than the various excuses like servers being down, not being able to process everyday, ect. And of course the testimonials. If you have listened to one conference call you pretty much know how they go.

Later I watched the Enron show. A good portion of the documentary was recorded internal company staff meetings. It sounded just like YMMSS. I swear I could have closed my eyes and just listen to the voice and it would have been just like listening to the YMMSS conference calls. Not so much in the exact wording, but in the way the words were presented to the stock holders and various investment brokers to schill the Enron stock and keep it inflated.

In YMMSS the veterns and mods (testimonials) are the Investment analyst pushing the stock (EPCs). Kim is the CEO telling people just to not worry about the stock price (cycle time) and just keep buying because the basic business model was strong. He is also the CEO telling the members that the lawyers have looked everything over and assured him that everything he is doing is legal.

For those that do not know the whole story, Enron was a huge scandal in which the primary company was keep afloat by hundreds of other companies. Basically the other companies would hide the debt of Enron. The big coup for Enron were the problem involving California's power supply in 2000-2001 in which Enron stole billions of dollars from the state and residents of California.

There are so many similarities between the two and what is happening it was almost erie listening watching the documentary. The most dispointing aspect is that up until the very day Enron closed its doors the rank and file still believed things would get better. YMMSS will be no different even though the same signs of failure are apparent for YMMSS as they were for Enron.

[200_K_already]

Hi! :) I'm wondering if YMMSS is a scam. My friend is trying to get me into this, but I don't really want to. What do ya'll think? Thanks.

:confused: 25baY :confused:

No it's not a scam.

Dont listen to these people. They spend far too much time playing Columbo. They come over to the YmForum and ask questions and are fed answers, then they run here like good little detectives and post as quick as their little fingers will type. :nono:


Let me tell you.

They can call it what they like, Ponzi, Pyramid, Scam; all of them are incorrect. :shake:

Even the most negative of members would tell you that.

I wont tell you the virtues of YMMSS in here as I know whatever I say will be trashed. Unlike the above detectives, I dont have all day to visit this site to keep up to date with arguments.

I'm too busy servicing my several online business's which I am doing very well at thank you very much.

Alan

[concerned]

No it's not a scam.




Then why don't you prove how it is not a scam. You are new to this site. You must understand that you just writing this comment is not going to convince anyone. Maybe you are the person that will be able to prove that this site isn't a scam. Here is a hint. Prove with math that nobody will ever get scammed at YMMSS.

[surfer]

You saw his "proof" in the IT thread concerned. :rolleyes:

Since he joined the ponzi early enough to get paid, that
means it's not a scam. LOL.

Who cares about the thousands of victims after him that
don't see a dime like the vast majority of YMMSS members
who have never been paid.

[Arzel]

Alan is one of the moderators over at the YM Forums. And as one of the early members has the most to gain by talking people into joining YMMSS.

[200_K_already]

Oh you are good at identifying everyone else, but hide under a rock yourself.

Anyway, I didn't post here to argue with you people, because I wouldn't waste my time. I was answering the persons who posted the original question.

There is no balance in this forum at all.

It's a scam, is the ONLY arguement.

You really are a sad little crew. lol

Alan lol lol lol lol lol lol

[200_K_already]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

[ycchen]

200_K_already,

So you have made 200K from YMMSS? Is this a gross or net profit from your investment? May I know how much you invest in YM? 2K or less?

I am sure you know pretty well how YMMSS works. 200K that you gain from YMMSS is at the lost of the latecomers. I hope you can sleep well at night knowing that great majority of YMMSS will not get a dime. Why? Because all the money has gone to Kim and a small percentage of early birds like yourself. May be you should really think about reinvesting your $200K profit back to YMMSS, instead of asking newbies and misinformed members to continue to donate..(sorry, I mean buy EPC :D).

[Dreamer]

Dont listen to these people. They spend far too much time playing Columbo. They come over to the YmForum and ask questions and are fed answers, then they run here like good little detectives and post as quick as their little fingers will type.

The only reason why anybody may do that because MW is actually a more balanced forum than ym or other forums. Yes, MW is anti-matrix sites. That was the original goal is to educate people. But for other sites, this site doesnt have a stance on them. If it smells like a scam than we call it one.

Im sure most members here would appreciate the views of pro-ym members. However, the few that trek in here usually just do a hit and run, offering that they got paid as proof it is legal and not a scam, or just childish name calling than running away. Those are not good arguments.

So, instead of those 2 options, and using the tired rhetoric of ym supporters that were brainwashed into believing, or simple greed so they can cycle and run, why not prove that we are wrong and ym is ethical?

If ym wasnt delete happy for any posts they dont want to answer people wouldnt have to post here and there.

[200_K_already]

200_K_already,

So you have made 200K from YMMSS? Is this a gross or net profit from your investment? May I know how much you invest in YM? 2K or less?



You assume too much. :nono:

I dont just do YMMSS. Actually of all the higher earners in YM that I know, most are doing what they can to help new members. I know of very litle selfishness within the company. It's all about people helping people and it is very much that way.

Unlike this dirty little cul-de-sac.




And Dreamer, you said

If it smells like a scam than we call it one.


That shows me exactly what kind of person you are. You have spent a lot of time reading YMMSS material and going to the calls no doubt, yet you still come away with stupid statements like that in reference to YM.

Isn't it a little disingenuous to visit YM as an interested prospect and then come here and spout your bile? Very sad.

You can recommend banning me from here.

I will not return, even out of morbid curiosity to see what you say next.

Im so sorry for you and your likes.


Have a nice life folks, inhabiting these type of sites and having a good old gossip. Me, Im off to make some money for me and my kin and to do my bit for the common good. :)

Bye now!


Alan.

[MatrixWatch]

Unlike this dirty little cul-de-sac.

That shows me exactly what kind of person you are. You have spent a lot of time reading YMMSS material and going to the calls no doubt, yet you still come away with stupid statements like that in reference to YM.

Isn't it a little disingenuous to visit YM as an interested prospect and then come here and spout your bile? Very sad.

You can recommend banning me from here.

I will not return, even out of morbid curiosity to see what you say next.

Im so sorry for you and your likes.


Have a nice life folks, inhabiting these type of sites and having a good old gossip.

Alan.



200 K,

We definitely appreciate hearing from all perspectives here on these forums, but please be sure to read, and adhere to, our forum rules (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/announcement.php?f=1). Just because one member disagrees with another member, it does not give them the right to insult one another. Please debate the issue, and don't attack the person. By enforcing this rule, we hope to create a discussion forum which sticks to the issues and develops a train of thought as fully as possible.

If there are any specific claims that you'd like to take issue with and rebut, then feel free to do so. In keeping our forums open to all sides of the issue, and allowing each side to develop their points, we hope that the truth of the matter will rule out in the end.

Thanks, and welcome to Matrix Watch. :)

[Dreamer]

I will gladly join when the cycle time drops to 60 days. That is a promise. And, i wont put in $10, but I'll put in my entire savings at that point.

If the site remains the doubler that it is, it will never get that far down. If all the additional income streams come in that are promised, and drives the cycle down that far, you bet im going to join.

I've listened to a few conferences, and read the boards, adn I can still happily walk away believing its a scam. they will not disclose any of the outside sources of income, and it looks like their best effort is not finding advertisers but to find profit sharers. That is for every $1 that a ymmss member spends with us, w'll put a nickle back into the pool. Is that what kims idea of obtaining advertisers?

And just simply locating the business in belize to prevent lawsuits should suggest that it is not fully legit. Than the owner taking out money from the program to buy himself a hotel and call it an investment is just horrible.

The truth of the matter is for the past 195 days, or however long the cycle time is, the people that put money into the system expecting it to double has not received a penny, and they account for about $50million that is in the pot. If somebody puts money in today, their expected cycle time is about 1000 days. But, kim wont tell you that number, because 195 sounds alot better.

So, despite our differences of opinions on the site, I dont see how you can say my opinion is bile or anything else, because I can support my opinion with facts, or at least my interpretation of the facts. All youve done is a hit and run. You should stick around. Show us the error of our ways.

[concerned]

It's a scam, is the ONLY arguement.




Really? If I remember correctly, this thread was started by someone asking if YM was a scam. You say that the only argument is that "It's a scam" yet your only counterargument is "No, it's not a scam." Shouldn't there be more to your argument, such as proof? I would like for you to prove us wrong. If you could prove us wrong, you would be the first, and you would probably be a legend in the scammer world for being the only person to ever prove Matrixwatch wrong.

ARE YOU UP TO THE CHALLENGE???

[ycchen]

I will gladly join when the cycle time drops to 60 days. That is a promise. And, i wont put in $10, but I'll put in my entire savings at that point.

Good point. If the cycle time drops back to 60 days, that means YMMSS is really moving away from its ponzi-based cash-flow structure. The only way to archieve this is through huge influx 5-10 times larger than EPC purchase income) of outside incomes.

Unfortunately, Dreamer, Surfer and Arzel have repeatedly shown that the "claims" of outside incomes by YMMSS continues to be the "pie in the sky". :(

So, if the "claims" really actualized and the cycle time drops to 60 days (and stay constant for at least 60 days), then I will put in all my savings as well. :)

[homeworker]

Even the most negative of members would tell you that.

LOL

you dont know the YMMSS members verry well :D

But if it is not a scam or a pyramid or a ponzi then why dont you give some answers to the concerns raised in the various threads.

Allot of valid points have been brought up. why not bother to argue them. If it isnt a scam it cant be that hard.

or could it.....

[homeworker]

@200k already:

please click on the link:

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

and then on the link behind: This page.

Here you will see the math behind YMMSS and what they need to keep the cycle time at 90 or 180 in the coming years. I would like to see you proving it wrong or telling me how this can be done.

[pawnhead]

Hi.
I just joined this forum.
I'm a member of an Australian forum, and I've been watching YMMSS for a short while now.
I posted my observations on that forum, and I was getting some response. Some people were concerned about other schemes as well.
There are a lot of Australians sucked into this operation, and it's tragic to see what's happening there, but my thread was deleted the day after I posted it.
I don't know what rules I broke, maybe they were worried about litigation in some way. I'll send an e-mail to the administrator to try to find out why my thread was deleted.

I was just about to post this in the now deleted thread.
I hope I'm not breaking your rules by posting it here.
It's all just extracts from the forums at YMMSS.


Hi,
Sounds too good to be true and it also sounds like a variation of a pyramid scheme?
I think it appears to be a variation because Kim calls it a ladder (Matrix).

The statement "if it's to good to be true" was created to hold back common sense by skeptics. Its the original wet blanket on fullfilling dreams, robs fortitude, meant to blind ones eyes to better things.
Depends on what your level of 'true' is.
A few years ago I decided to expand my reality and decide for myself what was good and what was true. Not repeat what people with very limited prosperity levels parrot via the media etc.

With the matrix (structure) used in YMMSS, the people at the top are continuously being replaced by the people below them. Everyone gets their turn at the top over and over again.
Instead of a ladder, think of it as a ferris wheel. That way you won't need a parachute or an elevator on your way back down.

( This guest was obviously taunting them, and it’s quite funny. He suggests the analogy of a 230,000 seat ferris wheel, with a 2 million foot circumference, weighing 230,000 tons, and he enquires about the motor that drives it. Then they all start talking about ladders and slides and ferris wheels. Find the thread here http://www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=14190&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 )

From another thread, and after a particularly long spiel, extolling the virtues of YMMSS by Bob Nilsson, (who is the CEO of a separate pay per click money making scheme), we get the following responses :-


God Bless Bob Nilsson NJ USA

Great post Bob (and a dozen more similar posts)

I am BLESSED ... you are BLESSED ... we all are BLESSED to be with YMMSS !!!

Various quotes from other threads, not necessarily in proper order:-

Hello to all at YMMSS.
I joined a couple of days ago. Looking forward to a prosperous future with YMMSS.
My name is Tom and I am from U/K

Welcome Tom from another Tom, from Illinois in the good ole USA.
Pastor Tom Spain

Welcome to the family Tom It Is a great one. Get prepared for the ride of your LIFE!

Welcome Tom, from "down under!" My hubbie's name is Tom also!
You've made a wise decision by joining our "family."
Blessings,

You WILL Lose one thing with YMMSS,YOUR DREAMS because they WILL become REALITY !

"Be Not Afraid of Going Slowly.... Be Only Afraid of Standing Still"
Karen
Western Australia

God guide your decision.

We are not judged by how many people we bring in, but rather by how many people we help!

The evidence of God's presence far outweighs the proof of His absence.

Man Proposes, God disposes

PATIENCE AND PERSISTENCE REAP GREAT REWARDS!

For I know the plans I have for you, 'declares the Lord, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, 'plans to give you a hope and a future.’

Got Love? PASS IT ON!

Procrastination is the Thief of Time

Your attitude determines your altitude ... don't quit before the miracle happens.

Faith, is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen

the blessing of the Lord, it maketh rich and He does not add sorrow to it

we are all fishes of the big beautiful green pond

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

Man Proposes, God disposes

Blessings to you, we are with the best

God is great

God is good

Let us remember ask God to continue to give us life, strength and health to enjoy the rewards of YMMSS!!

God bless you Kim! (Kim Inman is the founder of YMMSS)

AMEN brother.




When I myself posted on their forum, as soon as the questions became more difficult to answer, the subject turned more to "Faith", and once they realised that they didn't have another patsie to rope in, most of my posts were deleted.

I find the following post from their forums the most disturbing of all; -


Hallo, my dear wife is a member of YM and she spent a lot of time planning her buying and working on our "old Age" plan. We had dreams of a better life,free of debt and able to not only live a good life ourselves but help others to live too.
It looks to me as if this has gone....all I see now are the empty promises of everyother internet scam and I feel an empty, hollow in my gut. Not only for the loss of our dreams but because my dear, trusting wife was so convinced that this would work simply because of what she saw in Kim. She told me of his genius, his desire to help others make it in the internet business world, and many other wonderful characteristics. SHE BELEIVED ALL SHE HEARD AND READ .....she is now quite devestated as she can see things going downhill fast. Her main worry she expressed to me is that she no longer sees any updates from Kim himself, everthing is second hand from others. She feels that Kim is so worried about what is happening that he can't face his members.
Every day she reads that the new servers won't be long ....but where are they?
Right now my wife is crying as she feels she has let me down and our dreams are shattered. Please don't answer this with the usual platitiudes and please do not take offence, I just needed to say this once and then get on with my life, never again to believe that internet businesses can give us our dreams. Please, though, spare some prayers for my wife as I have never seen her so unhappy and her feeling of betrayal is devastating...Thank you for listening


The poor people were offered many consoling posts from YMMSS members.
I'm afraid that's all they're going to get from their investment.
The cycle times are going up at 1 day per day at the moment, and it's my belief that within a very short time, the house of cards will crumble.
It's a tragedy that so many gullible people will find themselves facing ruin.
It's a tragedy that nothing can be done to prevent recruitment of more people, who will obviously never see a penny of what they put in.
I can't believe that the U.S. government is allowing this to happen.

[pawnhead]

@200k already:

please click on the link:

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

and then on the link behind: This page.

Here you will see the math behind YMMSS and what they need to keep the cycle time at 90 or 180 in the coming years. I would like to see you proving it wrong or telling me how this can be done.

That's an excellent site. It's what lead me to this forum.
He's put in a lot of analysis of YMMSS, and he updates it regularly (almost daily), with their cycle times.

[Arzel]

That's an excellent site. It's what lead me to this forum.
He's put in a lot of analysis of YMMSS, and he updates it regularly (almost daily), with their cycle times.

Welcome to the forum pawnhead. You are right about the site you mentioned. There is a lot of good information at that site. I and others have been following YMMSS with interest for the past few months and feel that it is nothing but a variation of the Ponzi scam.

I am familiar with the thread you mention, and that the YM forums have been deleting numerous threads and posts to try and stem any negativity about YMMSS. I can't really blame them because free thought is the death of these scams....unless that free thought is blindless praise and posts of "We are so lucky to be a part of this scam (YMMSS)".

What Australian forum are you a member? I am aware of a few other forums which have been discussing YMMSS.

Feel free to post your thoughts and feelings on YMMSS, it is nice to hear some other outside impressions.

[Dreamer]

esto has a lovely work proving that ymmss is not a pyramid. I didnt read thru the dribble cuz it was full of mis-truths. My responce was: The sky is not purple. I dont need to spend pages and pages disproving the sky is purple.

Now I didnt read their forum rules, but I'm guessing if u challenge the color of the sky you are breaking forum rules.

[pawnhead]

Welcome to the forum pawnhead. You are right about the site you mentioned. There is a lot of good information at that site. I and others have been following YMMSS with interest for the past few months and feel that it is nothing but a variation of the Ponzi scam.

I am familiar with the thread you mention, and that the YM forums have been deleting numerous threads and posts to try and stem any negativity about YMMSS. I can't really blame them because free thought is the death of these scams....unless that free thought is blindless praise and posts of "We are so lucky to be a part of this scam (YMMSS)".

What Australian forum are you a member? I am aware of a few other forums which have been discussing YMMSS.

Feel free to post your thoughts and feelings on YMMSS, it is nice to hear some other outside impressions.
Thanks for the welcome Arzel

I’m a member of OCAU, Overclockers Australia http://www.overclockers.com.au/ . It’s a computer based forum, but I’m not that experienced in computers (I’m learning a bit in OCAU) and they have an average of 500 active users at night discussing all sorts of things.
I joined the forum just for a chat, and I mainly only use their general (non computer) ‘Pub’ chat forum. Posts in that forum don’t go toward your post count, so mine’s pretty low, but I’m not into the ‘my e-penis is bigger than yours’ so it doesn’t worry me.
It’s a good place to be, because they discuss local (Australian) issues (I’m from Sydney), and most of the people are quite intelligent.
I think you have to sign up just to view the forums, but it’s free, and if you want to find me there, my handle is the same ‘pawnhead’ (comes from a chess club I was in once). If you’re into computers, then there’s a wealth of information there.
A lot of the members (myself included) are donating their spare CPU's to Stamford University to do protein research in an attempt to find a cure for many diseases, including cancer. The OCAU team was leading the world in donations until recently when an American team overtook us, but hopefully we'll get our position back. This might encourage some of you to join the American team (rats). It's all for a good cause anyway, and like I said, I'm not so much into the 'My e-penis is bigger than yours' crap.
If you're interested in helping a good cause have a look at the info here http://folding.stanford.edu/. It won't cost you anything, it's just using your computer's spare CPU cycles. Sign up for team 24 if you want to help the Aussies. I'm not sure what number the American team is. (sorry about the shameless plug there)

Someone started a thread at OCAU about a moneymaking scheme, and his referral number was hidden behind a hyperlink.
It didn’t take long for the other members to pounce on him, and the thread was deleted in short shrift.
But it got me curious, so I went there, and it sounded ‘too good to be true’, i.e. ‘probably isn't’.
I’m not stupid, so I did a bit of off-site DD, and I found the work at home site, scam.com and Matrix watch. Scam.com has a lot of the ‘blind faithful’ posting, and I can’t understand how they can keep arguing against logic???
YMMSS interested me, because it looks like it’s in its death throes, and there’s a few Aussie members posting in their forums. They’ve got a ‘group hug’ meeting scheduled in Sydney next year, and they’re selling tickets now, but I don’t think YMMSS will last that long.

So I started a thread in OCAU hoping I could do some good by warning about a possible recruitment drive from YMMSS.
Someone posted a response saying that they had just invested in a newly formed scheme called ‘Market Australia’. The site was the same as most of the others of it's kind, all golden opportunity B/S but no real information until you sign up with an e-mail and a phone number so their reps can pounce on you.
I did a quick google on the CEO, and I found he was the CEO of Market America, and he had legal issues with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission, so I linked to the various articles and I did some more research on what it was about.
It looks like it’s an MLM scheme, and I checked the prices of some of their products. Most of them can be found cheaper elsewhere, so I advised that it’s pretty difficult to make any money unless you’re prepared to recruit all your friends and relatives, take out ads, spam various forums or post bills and flyers all over the place. I've read what happened with Herbalife being indirectly responsible for thousands of 'get rich quick' banners all over power poles, and I've seen a few of them here. I posted links to this site (Matrix Watch) and various others, and I went back to looking at YMMSS.
Before I could post some more of my observations, my thread had been deleted.
I researched the forum rules, and I found this one ‘Pyramid schemes, affiliate programs or any links containing affiliate identifiers are not to be posted.’
I suppose I violated the rule by linking to the YMMSS forums, but I was strongly advocating against any investment. I posted the link just to show how comical their ‘Blind faith’ was, and I asked them to follow the debate I was currently having with their members. Most of the debate has since been deleted and there’s only one of my posts left there now.
It looks like I can express my opinions here though, so I’ll be reading a lot more about YMMSS from your forums, to make sure I’m not re-posting what’s already been said. I don’t want to be accused of spamming as it detracts from some of the other brilliant posts I’ve read here. You people have certainly done some research on YMMSS, and it’s good to see that at least someone is trying to stop the tragedy of people losing their life’s savings.
Thanks again for the welcome. I just wish there was some way I could make my fellow Australians more aware of what’s going on.

:applause:

[dragonmage]

Hi, I have reasons to be concerned with the influence of the marketing company prawnhead mentions. Would like to see all of the info you gathered on the guy and the scheme.

thx