YMMSS - Complaints

[drzod]

Ok, I took your advice. I live in NC, so I went to the state attorney general's site and submitted the following:
__________________________________________________ _______________
I joined an Internet advertising/marketing site back in Jan 04 on the advice of a former co-worker.

The site is listed below:

http://ymmss.org

Basically you invest X dollars and agree to read ads for 30 minutes each week. You can post your own ads pointing to your site or a site with which you do business. If you meet this requirement of reading ads, your investment doubles every cycle. You can keep on doubling your money (no cap currently), or select to get paid commissions. It seemed too good to be true, but my co-worker was a firm believer so I joined.

Since Jan 04 I have supposedly turned $370 into $5,920 but have not elected to receive commissions until only recently. In Nov 04 they created a new website, and this cycle time kept increasing. My commission date moves out every time the cycle date increases, so I never get any closer to getting paid. As a result, I became concerned and searched for additional information.

I found two forums that discusses this site - they are listed below:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=84

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm

In reading the posts to these sites it appears that I have been the victim of a ponzi scheme. What are my recourses as far as reimbursement? How should I proceed?
__________________________________________________ _______________
I will post the response for other members.

[Arzel]

I think that is a very good letter, I would expect a response in at most a week, based off my previous experience. I hope you keeps us informed as to your response.

[ycchen]

drzod, good job! I believe your effort will encourage other victims to do the same thing, and hopefully the AGs will begin to investigate the YMMSS scam when they receives enough complaints.

For YMMSS hardcore supporters, there is nothing to worry about the collective complaints because IF the YMMSS is perfectly legal and legitimate (not a ponzi), no authorities will do anything about it. :)

However if you are following the analysis on this forum, you will understand why YMMSS is an illegal ponzi and is crashing fast. At the end of the day, the only winner will be KIM and his gang. Act now before they hide away or destroy their evidences.

[Salsa]

...and, YMMSS members, don't think that your one "little" complaint won't make a difference. There are some 20,000 members who haven't made a penny of profit from YMMSS (and never will). If you each do your part, it can make a BIG difference.

[MatrixWatch]

Perhaps someone can use Merc's GotMatrix page as a template and alter the date to reflect the needs of YMMSS partcipants who might want to follow through.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1775

[gmsource]

:head:

drzod: We exchanged emails at YMMSS. Where are you in NC? I am too! I sent you my email address. Did you send an actual letter to the NC attorney general or is there a website for complaints?

Live and learn. We'll never see our commissions. Kim probably has built a hideaway house somewhere on an exotic island and is laughing his butt off.

[surfer]

North Carolina Department of Justice (http://www.ncdoj.com/default.jsp) website.

Hopefully drzod will respond as to exactly
what steps were necessary to file a complaint.

For those in other states, here is a list of all
Attorney Generals (http://www.naag.org/ag/full_ag_table.php).

Other agencies that could possibly be useful
are the Federal Trade Commission (http://www.ftc.gov/) for consumer
complaints, the Securities and Exchange
Commission (http://sec.gov/index.htm) and the Internet Fraud Complaint
Center (http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp).

The SEC may be interested in a business that
claims that it's designed to double everyone's
money in 60-90 days.

[drzod]

gmsource, I'm glad you got to read my posting before it was deleted. I am located in Charlotte, NC and I did get your response at YMMSS.

The address I used for the NC attorney general is:

http://www.ncdoj.com/default.jsp

01) On the left-hand side click on Consumer Protection.
02) On the left-hand side click on Contact Us.
03) Topic - Choose Money Making & Work Scams.
04) Subtopic - Choose Pyramid Schemes.
05) Complete the form. My post is attached to the thread called Taking It To The Next Level.

By the way - I still have not heard anything. Should I re-submit?

[drzod]

Sorry, that was my title. The thread is called YMMSS Complaints.

[Arzel]

It has been just over a week, you may want to send them another note if you don't hear anything by the end of the week.

[Arzel]

The complaints thread became a little OT so it has been split into two.

Go here DrZod get's them talking (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=23394#post23394) to read the discussion with Alan one of the forum moderators from YMMSS.

Continue to post here regarding legal complaints against YMMSS.

[drzod]

Due to the fact that you need to give up your first born to have YMMSS sell your positions, I posted yet another e-mail to the announcements section of the general, silver, and gold forums. It just might get my account deactivated, but it seems I just function best while stirring the pot:

Idea – let me know your thoughts.

In reviewing the posts to ymforums.com and observing YMMSS members selling their EPC’s at huge discounts on the auction site, I was wondering if the following has ever been considered:

Several YMMSS members have personal testimonials about the income they have received from YMMSS. Many of these same members have participated in the pay it forward income option recently available on YMMSS.

I know YMMSS is not in the business of issuing refunds (this is stated specifically in our membership agreement), but what if the members referenced above contributed a portion of their commissions to fund a refund account for members who wish to exit YMMSS. I have seen the procedure to sell positions, and most members feel that it is too involved and cumbersome to pursue. I am sure that YMMSS has captured a member’s initial entry amount; so overpaying a refund will not be an issue.

This would benefit YMMSS tremendously by riding itself of negative PR, lessen the complaints into the help desk, and give sites out there questioning YMMSS a reason not to doubt the YMMSS business model.

Thoughts?

[gmsource]

drzod, sounds like a good idea to me but I doubt they will do it. They can't afford to give any refunds back. The second point: aren't they illegally deleting your posts? I mean, you paid to advertise yet if it's negative in any way they delete them. I was lucky to see your original post, as I happened to be there at the right time. Right after I read your post I checked back a few minutes later and the posts were gone. Maybe they could be sued for failure to perform their end of the bargain. This would be another legal point.

[Casandra]

drzod, sounds like a good idea to me but I doubt they will do it. They can't afford to give any refunds back. The second point: aren't they illegally deleting your posts? I mean, you paid to advertise yet if it's negative in any way they delete them. I was lucky to see your original post, as I happened to be there at the right time. Right after I read your post I checked back a few minutes later and the posts were gone. Maybe they could be sued for failure to perform their end of the bargain. This would be another legal point.I doubt they will consider it at all. To give a refund would have to include any doubled amounts in your account. For example if I have a $320 position that has been left to repurchase, that is considered the same at cycle time as if I had made a new purchase of a new position. If I had cycled once and my $320 was now $640, that is what they would have to refund. The problem is, what a refund does in effect is move the person being refunded to the front of the pay line. If they allowed refunds, there would be a very high demand for them I think. They won't do that to the waiting members.

About the deletions, they say all over the place that any ad can be deleted at their discretion at any time with no explanation. If you look at your local newspaper classified ads, they also have similar terms. It's not really unprecedented. He should ask the Help Desk for his EPC's to be refunded for the deleted ads. Lord knows how long that will take and he is setting himself up for being muzzled. :head: :shake:

[drzod]

My original e-mail to the NC Attorney General was sent on 05/31/05. As of 06/16/05 I have not received a response to my inquiry. As a result, I submitted the following a few mintues ago:

Back on 05/31/05 I submitted a request to review the ponzi nature of the following site: http://ymmss.org (I will provide the text of my prior request below).

I have not been contacted in regards to my request. I was hoping to have someone offer me advice on how to get a refund and possibly shut the site down. Usually, you do not hear about these types of sites until the "owner" has taken the money and "left town." In this case, this has not occurred yet. The "business" is located in Belize, but the owner supposedly still resides within the USA in Indiana. Please let me know how I should proceed.

I then attached my e-mail from 05/31/05 (listed here).

I just wanted to provide an update.

[drzod]

I know that my refund request will be ignored. After all, the YMMSS membership agreement specifically states that no refunds will be given. In addition, it seems that to sell your positions you have to jump through too many hoops, and this may actually allow you to cash in on the ponzi scheme.

I have a different agenda. Until my EPC's are used up on YMMSS, I will continue to post thought provoking questions to the announcements section of the gold, silver, and general forums.

I need to be careful as to not criticize YMMSS or the post will be deleted and my account possibly deactivated. I agree that YMMSS has the right to delete any negative ads - if it was my business I would as well.

However, I do know that my posts to the forums generate responses from other YMMSS members to my YMMSS in box. Most of the responses to my posts have been in favor with my concerns and questions. Other responses tell me to "hang in there," or that I am crazy, or that I am poisoning the forums - these I may respond, but usually I simply delete. I then respond to the other requests by pointing them to this site. By at least offering YMMSS members, blinded by Kim's promises, the opportunity to view a differing viewpoint, I feel I am making a positive difference. In fact, I know of at least two YMMSS members that have registered here and stop believing in the YMMSS false promises.

I feel this is the best way for me to make a difference

[drzod]

Casandra, I like your idea of requesting a refund of my EPC's if my ad is deleted. I will pursue this option if future posts are deleted.

[drzod]

I just filed a complaint with the SEC. In addition to my first post on this thread, I added the following:

On 07/01/05 YMMSS administration deactivated my account due to my postings that they referenced on the Matrix Watch site (user name drzod). They refused to issue a refund on my initial investment of $370 and removed me from their system.

I have already sent two complaints to the North Carolina Attorney General, but have received no replies as of yet.

I am not sure if I have legal recourse or not, so I was hoping you could point me in the right direction.

[Darius]

If membership agrerements are broken, then who is to blame? The breaker, or the enforcer?

D

[Arzel]

Please keep this on-topic. Me Again's most recent message was removed to keep this on topic.

[drzod]

I received a response from the SEC. It is listed below.

Thank you for contacting our office. Be happy that you've lost only $370.00. Unfortunately, there are many forums, ads, websites promoting other "get rich quick" schemes. For more information, I invite you to visit our website at:

http://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/worthless.htm


Once again, thank you for reporting your experience with us.

It does not look like further action will be taken, but it is hard to say.

Any ideas as to where to go from here?

I have still not received a response from the NC AG.

[Gringo]

Doesn't look that way to me either. I'm sorry to say that I doubt the government will take action and even if so won't be able to do much if Kim has things organized correctly offshore. A handful of complaints won't get the agencies off their butts. If there was massive publicity, then they would be forced to perk up and look like they were protecting the public by investigating. The other thing that might rattle their cages is to write a letter to all your representatives in Congress and ask them to help out.

The reorganized structure moves YMMSS away from looking like a pure ponzi and although few members are happy with it, the massive complaints over the ever growing CT will change to complaints about the small weekly payouts. The point is Kim has let a little steam out of the pressure cooker so that it won't blow immediately.

Be thankful that you haven't lost $1,000's like others have, help spread the word, write you reps. in D.C.

[swishnev]

I would encourage you to keep writing. Just make one letter, make 100 copies of it and send one a day, eventually they will do something. They are just testing your determination right now.

[Casandra]

A thought occurred to me. You might try to get the media on your side. Google the term "on your side" and you will find many TV channels with consumer protection interests. These are interested in stories they can follow up on and expose. If the story is big enough, they will take it to the authorities or make enough noise that they have to notice. All you need is one noisy consumer advocate and a few fellow sufferers to confirm the problem.

[Darius]

I wish I knew why you guy's are so determined to attack a perfectly good business? The only ones who are losing out are those who got themselves kicked out. (By their own admission).

YMMSS are doing all they can to make the business better.

Cant you commend them for that?

D

[surfer]

I wish I knew why you guy's are so determined to attack a perfectly good business?
I wish I knew why you guys are so afraid to deal
with the truth.

A ponzi scheme is not a perfectly good business.
Until you have a significant amount of actual retail
advertising customers, YMMSS is still virtually 100%
ponzi.

The only ones who are losing out are those who got themselves kicked out. (By their own admission).
Really, looks to me like nobody that has joined in the
last year has made any profit. The only ones that
could possibly have done so are those that joined
before October 24 and bailed out by claiming via
website or those who did some very heavy recruiting.

70%-80%+ of the membership operating at a loss because
of purchases of a nearly worthless product with the
promises of earning the "income of their dreams" seems
to be losing out to me.

YMMSS are doing all they can to make the business better.
That remains to be seen.

Kim doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of meeting
projected dates.

We'll see if he can get this new pay structure rolling in his
6-8 week time frame.

Cant you commend them for that?
No Darius, I can't commend someone for misleading thousands
of people.

Kim Inman promised thousands of people impossible returns on
a product that most find little to no value in.

By making these ridiculous claims and misleading members about
cycle times, he conned many people into trusting him and risking
a lot more than they should have.

And yes, they weren't very smart to do so. But if all of those
people who invested too much money had been smarter, where
do you think cycle times would be at now?

We stated all along that cycle times would keep on climbing.

I think it's about time Jim Hakim stops referring to it as a
technical glitch. lol That lousy excuse has worn out its
usefulness.

[Arzel]

I wish I knew why you guy's are so determined to attack a perfectly good business? The only ones who are losing out are those who got themselves kicked out. (By their own admission).

YMMSS are doing all they can to make the business better.

Cant you commend them for that?

D

If YMMSS was a perfectly good business then it wouldn't have the problems it now has.

I am not sure what there is to commend Kim for regarding YMMSS.

Thousands of people have virtually no chance of ever getting their money back. At least 10,000 people have joined after the Nov 18th date, and have not cycled once. Under the new plan they have the following to look forward to.


EPC Value - Commisions per week - Time to return original EPC in months.
EPC - $0.50|$1.00|$1.50|$2.00|$2.50|$3.00|$3.50|$4.00
$10 - 19.5| 17.1| 16.4| 16.0| 15.8| 15.6| 15.5| 15.4
$20 - 21.1| 16.5| 14.9| 14.2| 13.7| 13.4| 13.2| 13.0
$40 - 27.4| 18.1| 15.1| 13.5| 12.6| 12.0| 11.5| 11.2
$80 - 42.9| 24.4| 18.2| 15.2| 13.3| 12.1| 11.2| 10.5
$160 - 76.8| 39.9| 27.6| 21.4| 17.7| 15.3| 13.5| 12.2
$320 -147.7| 73.8| 49.2| 36.9| 29.5| 24.6| 21.1| 18.5


EPC Value - Commisions per week - Time to Double original EPC in months.
EPC - $0.50|$1.00|$1.50|$2.00|$2.50|$3.00|$3.50|$4.00
$10 - 24.1| 19.5| 17.9| 17.1| 16.7| 16.4| 16.2| 16.0
$20 - 30.3| 21.1| 18.0| 16.5| 15.6| 14.9| 14.5| 14.2
$40 - 45.8| 27.4| 21.2| 18.1| 16.3| 15.1| 14.2| 13.5
$80 - 79.8| 42.9| 30.5| 24.4| 20.7| 18.2| 16.5| 15.2
$160 - 150.7| 76.8| 52.2| 39.9| 32.5| 27.6| 24.1| 21.4
$320 - 295.4|147.7| 98.5| 73.8| 59.1| 49.2| 42.2| 36.9


I think the high end of $4 a week is overly optimistic, it will be at least a year before the magical $19 million a week comes into the system, and I don't see any reason to believe that it will happen, it is such an increadible amount of money, it is just not realistic to believe that it will happen, and given Kim's current track record I wouldn't bet on it.

$3 a week is based off current estimates of $500,000 a week coming into the system (approximately what is being reported right now.) However most people believe that the CPA is grossly overstated as a good deal of the money reported is simply being recycled back into the system for repurchase. This may not be currently true, but it certainly was true in the past. In any case I think the best one could hope for is in the $1.50 a week range.

These weekly payments are also based off a closed system. As new EPC's are purchases and mature the weekly pay will be reduced per mature EPC. Weekly input into the CPA will have to raise at the same rate new EPC's mature into the system, and the past history is a downward trend. I don't see a turnaround any time soon. In fact, by the time the $19 million per week is supposed to come into the system it's actual effect will be reduced dramatically because of new EPC purchases.


So for those 10,000+ people that invested post Nov 18th 2004, the best they can really hope for is to get back their money a little over a year after the new payment system goes into effect, and most likely not see it for 16 months. Given the expected 2 to 3 months before the new plan is implemented, the majority of YMMSS members will have to wait until about spring of 2007 before they see a single penny of actual profit.

Now you tell me. Should they commend Kim? When they joined they were under the impression that they would be able to double their money in 90 days (approximately) and now it will be about 2+ years before they even get their own money back. And to even get it back they had to read 52 hours of advertising.

[Darius]

If YMMSS was a perfectly good business then it wouldn't have the problems it now has.

That's right, business's do not have problems.

Come on?

D

[Arzel]

That's right, business's do not have problems.

Come on?

D

I wrote all that, and this is your only response?

You are right businesses do run into problems, but the problem YMMSS has regarding cycle times is catostrophic. A "perfectly good" business does not have to change it's entire business model to stay viable.

[Darius]

Not so. I worked for a company that used to build ships. Now they build Deisel Engines. Had to - the market changed.

(By the way, your long answers are very difficult to answer sufficiently. No offence.)

D

[Gringo]

Originally Posted by Darius
I wish I knew why you guy's are so determined to attack a perfectly good business?

Because we are not attacking a perfectly good business. A ponzi/doubler/matrix is not a business. It is a scam since it is mathmatically impossible to deliver what Kim originally promised--to perpetually double everyones money every 90 days and it does not offer a product or service that has value outside the incentive to purchase it to double your money. The fact that he has abandoned that model is admission that it didn't work.

As to attacking the new model, there are several problems with it. First he is representing that amounts under $320 will double every 90 days, but those funds cannot be withdrawn, so that money is an illusion.

Second, he promises a piece of the income that will be shared by ad sales in his paid to read program. These paid to read programs have been around for years, Kim did not invent them. They have not been successful in generating major advertising revenue. So he is offering the potential income in a business model proven to be ineffective. If this was a stock offering, any analyst would immediately point this out and no firm would underwrite the offering. Instead Kim offers it under the SEC radar to less sophisticated people, convincing them that he has a viable service and to send him their money.

Third through the years we've seen him clearly mislead people on various issues and break committments. His integrity and intentions are highly questionable.

[Arzel]

Not so. I worked for a company that used to build ships. Now they build Deisel Engines. Had to - the market changed.

(By the way, your long answers are very difficult to answer sufficiently. No offence.)

D

By your response I would assume you worked for a large ship company (30ft+).

Large ships typically use Diesel engines, so a switch to manufactoring only only the engies does not seem to unreasoable. I don't know if that ship company had been producing them along with the ship originally, but even if they did not, considerable knowledge about diesel engines would have been required in the design of the ship.

I imagine a couple scenarios requiring the switch.

1. Demand for large ships had dropped to the point where there were too many ship builders for the market. Under this scenario you ship company simply did not produce the best ships for the money..at least not in the eyes of the consumer. A switch to a specific area of the business would be a way to stay in business, and the ship company probably produced very good engines.

2. Profit margins was such that producing only the engines was more profitable, and perhaps the company wished to expand into other areas where diesel engies are typically used. If the company also produced very good ships the logical choice would be to expand creating more than one division.

In either scenario, the ship building company you worked for clearly was not (in the eyes of the consumers) producing the best ships for the price.

YMMSS is a different situation in that it doesn't really produce anything of value. The change in commission payment plan is simply trying to mask that aspect because the cycle times are showing this to be true.

You have yet to provide any evidence that YMMSS was a perfectly good company. I will await that response.

As for the length of my posts, consider them to be good skill builders. It is important to be able to read through long documents and pull out the information needed to make a wise decision, you should have done so before joining YMMSS, to help you understand how it works.

[Darius]

I didn't think your purpose here was to 'skill build', but there you go.

The Shipbuilder I referred to built the Queen Mary,QE and QE2, to mention just a few.

Quality was not a problem. Clyde shipbuilding was the greatest in the world and any shipbuilder will concede that point.

The problem was company's like Hyundai could do it cheaper and quicker with there modern yards and government backing. Our yards were outdated as they had been working flat-out since the 2nd world war right up to the 1970's and had no time to modernise. Their success was their undoing ironically.

Anyway, they found another market and another way of making ends meet.

YM has had to do the same. All the downtime caused CT rises, confidence took a dip and it became bad trip from then on in.

Let's bear in mind that right now, people are still getting paid. Not at the rate anticipated, but still getting it all the same.


D

[Dreamer]

You know what the most disguesting thing about this whole con if u ask me...kimmy i changing the rules of the game in the middle without giving people a chance to not accept the new rules.

What about those people that put $10,000+ of their own money into the sytem to make a decent income, and now they wont be able to get it back? They were lied to stating that it will be a recurring income. Now they are broke. They will have some percentage of the weekly pot that will go down and down and they will get less and less. They might not be able to even recover 10% of they money they put into it because kimmy has decided to steal everybodys money without them being able to say anything.

Please do me a favor...tell me how this is remotly fair to anybody in the system now?

[ycchen]

Darius, how much profit have you made with YMMSS so far? Are you really that confident that you can rely on YMMSS for early retirement?

[Arzel]

I didn't think your purpose here was to 'skill build', but there you go.

The Shipbuilder I referred to built the Queen Mary,QE and QE2, to mention just a few.

Quality was not a problem. Clyde shipbuilding was the greatest in the world and any shipbuilder will concede that point.

The problem was company's like Hyundai could do it cheaper and quicker with there modern yards and government backing. Our yards were outdated as they had been working flat-out since the 2nd world war right up to the 1970's and had no time to modernise. Their success was their undoing ironically.

Anyway, they found another market and another way of making ends meet.

YM has had to do the same. All the downtime caused CT rises, confidence took a dip and it became bad trip from then on in.





It was never a question of quality. Have you ever heard of a little product called Betamax? It is universally accepted that Betamax was far superior to VCR, but it is quite obvious how that turned out.

It just goes to show you that quality alone does not guarentee success.



Let's bear in mind that right now, people are still getting paid. Not at the rate anticipated, but still getting it all the same.
D

The past few years were my parent live it has been pretty dry. Their well went dry and they had to put in a new well.

Oh it was still pumping water, but it was at such a slow rate it was no longer worth their time, plus the quality of the water was not all that good anymore.

The YMMSS well is drying up also, and if some people didn't have so much money invested they probably would be saying it is not worth their time anymore either. Now instead of everyone being able to fill up their bucket when they slowly get to the pump, YMMSS will fill up a bucket and divy it up into a dixie cup for everyone. Good deal ;)

[Darius]

Darius, how much profit have you made with YMMSS so far? Are you really that confident that you can rely on YMMSS for early retirement?

Yep, I made around $14k in the last 12 months.

My goal is to have enough income to allow my wife to stop working, then me to follow. I have a few things going though also a 'traditional' business that I do.

I do think YMMSS will work long term. Genuinly.

(Arzel, the quality thing was not my arguement, it was just in reply to something else you said. My arguement is that successful companies who can be market leaders and cannot be touched in quality, can sometimes find themselves in a position of having to evolve. Having to 'evolve' is not a symptom of failure.)

D

[Arzel]

Yep, I made around $14k in the last 12 months.

My goal is to have enough income to allow my wife to stop working, then me to follow. I have a few things going though also a 'traditional' business that I do.

I do think YMMSS will work long term. Genuinly.

(Arzel, the quality thing was not my arguement, it was just in reply to something else you said. My arguement is that successful companies who can be market leaders and cannot be touched in quality, can sometimes find themselves in a position of having to evolve. Having to 'evolve' is not a symptom of failure.)

D

You were the one to bring up quality, I simply stated that your ship company was probably not producing ships worth the value it cost to produce them (in the eyes of the consumer, very important thing to remember). Quality is only one aspect of the equation.

Evolution is a change in order to adapt to a new set of circumstances. The problem YMMSS is suffering from is a result of the original model. There are no outside forces causing this evolution, all the changes are being dictated by events occuring within YMMSS (namely that members are not buying EPC's in great enough numbers to continue to fund the CPA and maintain 90 cycles times.)

In the case of YMMSS this change is a result of the failings of the original model, I do not see why you cannot accept this. Successful business do not suddenly change a fundemental aspect of their company mid-stream only to leave most of their customers wondering exactly what is going to happen. The upper management does not even have a real grasp as to what effects this will have, just a bunch of estimates. And given the previous track record of estimates why would anyone believe anything Kim says?

The very least Kim should have done, is to completely analyze this fundemental change and the possible effects, before announcing the upcoming change. Instead he comes out, mentions the upcoming change, and states that analysis will have to be done to see how it will all work out, but here are some preliminary estimates. What is he thinking?

[ycchen]

Yep, I made around $14k in the last 12 months.

My goal is to have enough income to allow my wife to stop working, then me to follow. I have a few things going though also a 'traditional' business that I do.

I do think YMMSS will work long term. Genuinly.

DThanks for your feedback.

So, how much are you going to invest in this new system, genuinely? What kind of income stream are you expect to have with your genuine investment?

Since this is your wife's (and eventual yours) early retirement plan, it would be helpful if you could give us your planned "cashflow" (monthly or yearly) with this new system. I am sure you have a very clear picture in your mind, please share with us if possible.

[Dreamer]

So, you stole $14k from newbies so you can make a profit. U dont have a problem that kimmy is changing the rules on u now so that all the money you have in ymmss is now just monopoly money, not worth anything?

Wouldnt u rather have ur positions cycle how they have been cycling rather than receiving a couple bucks a week in some profit sharing crap?

[surfer]

Grumpy today, eh Dreamer. :)

I don't think Darius shares our view that YMMSS
is a ponzi and would'nt feel like the money has
been stolen from the eventual losers.

Thank you Darius for sharing your thoughts and
info.

[Darius]

Ahem hem,- Arzel wrote

Under this scenario you ship company simply did not produce the best ships for the money..

That may not use the word 'quality', but it does infer it.

A side issue anyway.

D

[Darius]

I think it's high time that Dreamer got censured in some way. I thought we were discussing this like adults.

I think I'll give it a miss actually.

Incidentally, the new system is specifically designed to help 'newbies'.

See you all later.

D

[Dreamer]

I hereby censor myself. Im a bleeping bleeper. there, happy?

Ok, so you dont think it was a ponzi. I'm not concerned about the newbies in ymmss for this argument, but do u not care that kimmy has stolen ur money to give u a percentage of the pie?

Didnt u sign up to double your money every cycle? What if u put $10,000 of your own money into it, and now your being told that u get just a portion of the weekly moneys without ever a chance of claiming your money?

And whether it helps the newbies or not will be seen.

[Arzel]

Ahem hem,- Arzel wrote



That may not use the word 'quality', but it does infer it.

A side issue anyway.

D

I hate to stray so far off topic, but I never infered quality.

I specifically stated that the consumer didn't view the value to be worth their investment. There is a huge difference. Old Navy is a company that "In my eyes" sacrifices quality for price. Their clothing is of low quality, but the price is such that they are successful. I have no doubt that the ships produced by your forementioned ship company were of the highest quality, but that is not always a good thing.

When Henry Ford began making cars he analyzed exisitng cars extensively. Every aspect of the car was analyzed. In those times, and even today to a lesser degree, it was apparent that certain aspects of a car would fail long before other aspects. Ford's approach, was "Why produce the best brakes if the axle will only last half as long?" So he reduced the quality of many items so that they would all fail approximately at the same time.

He also was a pioneer in mass production of vehicles, and even though the quality of his cars was less than that of others, his cars were much more successfull because there was no longer useless overhead built into the over production of certain parts.

It is an optimization issue (Operations Research is the specific field, and ironically what I will be recieving my Masters Degree over the next year). But enough of the off topic, the fact remains that YMMSS is not a perfectly good company, and you have yet to provide any evidence contrary to this analysis.

[Darius]

Dreamer I said censured, not censored.

But hey, who's reading this anyway except you, Surfer and I?

D

[Arzel]

So, you stole $14k from newbies so you can make a profit. U dont have a problem that kimmy is changing the rules on u now so that all the money you have in ymmss is now just monopoly money, not worth anything?

Wouldnt u rather have ur positions cycle how they have been cycling rather than receiving a couple bucks a week in some profit sharing crap?

'Stole' is probably a little strong, there is no evidence that Darius knew that YMMSS was a ponzi initially. But I don't think that reaches the level of needing to be censured.

[Arzel]

Dreamer I said censured, not censored.

But hey, who's reading this anyway except you, Surfer and I?

D

Almost 2,500 thread views, I think there is a substantial audience.

But enough of this talk. Let us return this back on topic, myself included.

[Dreamer]

Ok. I make a public apoligy. Stole was perhaps severe, and maybe even wrong. For the sake of my argument, I wont even call it a ponzi.

My point still remains that the rules of the system will be changing so that there is no possibility of withdrawing the money that you put into the system. I think that is unfair for the people who have put a significient amount of money into the system and now there is no chance of getting their money back.

Its being touted as being the same system, only everybody gets paid...well...I think the numbers for the first month will who just how much its going to fail.

Simply put, if they want a new system, they should offer it to the members, not force it upon them. They should allow some system such that those who want to participate can particpate in it. Those that dont can still use the same system to cash out eventually.

It would be simple. If 10% of the memberbase wants to switch over, than 10% of the weekly payouts will go to them, and the other 90% will continue to cycle the old payouts.

But, as it stands, its being forced on them.

As for my usage of stealing, if u buy stolen merchandise off the back of a truck somewhere and the police can trace the merchandise, no matter what, you gotta give back the merchandise to the rightful owner and ur out of the money.

[Arzel]

@Dreamer:

I definately think YMMSS is a Ponzi, and even the new system will probably be a variation of a Ponzi. :)

And I agree with your last statement, and in fact during the original Ponzi scam some people did end up having to forfeit money made in the Ponzi.

Interesting post in the YMForums.

The ONLY way You are going to Successfully Get Rich Quick is by Winning the Lottery,Inventing a new product,Inheritence and those legal things.

Anytime you see these ads just say goodbye to your money,maybe not in a day,week or month but they ALL END SADLY for ALL INVOLVED!

The % game has had to now adjust to a higher level since the actual interest rate has gone up and they couldn't sustain the 1% to 3% level before.

When you believe you are going to make money any of these ways you will EVENTUALLY LOSE PERIOD!

It any of them had a history of being a Winner,wouldn't everyone be doing it? Well all there results from these programms are memberships of good people losing their savings sooner or later.

How can anyone believe that buy doing nothing they will become Rich? It makes no sence to even consider yourself in this lossers group,because it's a continuing cycle of lose and start over to do it again.

And sad to know is that the same guy who just took a vacation with your savings and left no trace of the website,has already opened a new one for you to join and don't worry he has your email address to make sure you know about the newest loser website you can join.

With YMMSS you get a PROVEN WINNER in its 4th year of total Success,a legal business that you work and receive something of value for your money from the start.

Since June 11,2002 NOBODY HAS LOST ONE PENNY AT YMMSS.

....

Notice what I highlighted in RED. I find this very ironic to have Bob Nilson state that sites promising 1%, 3% a day will result in you losing money.

A $320 position paying 1% a day would double in 100 days, which is quite close to the original 90 day promise made by Kim. I find it amazing how they can say with a straight face that these 'other' programs are scams and will take your money, when YMMSS is virtually identical to them.

[Darius]

Stole was perhaps severe, and maybe even wrong.

Apology is defined as

an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret

Perhaps and maybe do not 'fit'.

But I accept you've apologised as best you can at this time. Well done.

Dont apply for any work with the Diplomatic Corps.

Arzel wrote

I definately think YMMSS is a Ponzi

So you just think now. Maybe you have seen the light and are not so sure now?

Hmm?

D

[Arzel]

So you just think now. Maybe you have seen the light and are not so sure now?

Hmm?

D

Exactly what point are you trying to get across? I don't think I ever specifically stated that I "know" YMMSS is a ponzi, but I have stated many times I personally think it is a ponzi scam, and have provided a great deal of evidence to this point.

As a public forum, I have been quite careful to make sure my statements are my opinion.

Still waiting for some evidence from you that YMMSS is a perfectly good company, or would you rather just make pointless posts?

[Darius]

Exactly my point Arzel, many points are made in here with no actual proof. You cannot prove because to do that you would need to have the guy say, "I started a Ponzi!" That's not going to happen so everything that is discussed in here is all supposition.

The onus is on me to prove YMMSS is a good company but 90% of those who use this forum get to say whatever they like without challenge; so long asthey are negative about YM. That is the truth.

I have read many posts by people who have tried to make valid points in here and they never get shown any respect really. I will concede that you are mostly polite as are a couple of others, but there are quite a few of those who are part of this fraternity who are no more than embittered and angry bandwaggoneers.

D

[swishnev]

darius, alan, whatever your name is....please, please, please come in here with some facts, you have yet to give any proof that ymmss is legitimate. on top of that, rarely has anything in this forum gone unchallanged, at least in the time i've been here.

[Arzel]

Exactly my point Arzel, many points are made in here with no actual proof. You cannot prove because to do that you would need to have the guy say, "I started a Ponzi!" That's not going to happen so everything that is discussed in here is all supposition.

The onus is on me to prove YMMSS is a good company but 90% of those who use this forum get to say whatever they like without challenge; so long asthey are negative about YM. That is the truth.

I have read many posts by people who have tried to make valid points in here and they never get shown any respect really. I will concede that you are mostly polite as are a couple of others, but there are quite a few of those who are part of this fraternity who are no more than embittered and angry bandwaggoneers.

D

Oh but we do have some proof. 95% plus of all money paid has come from existing members (this has been documented by identifing stated outside revenue from Kim and publically posted commissions paid.) Additionally it has been publically stated numerous times that the vast majority of money paid has come from existing members.

Kim has stated several times that a primary problem with the cycle times is that members are not purchasing EPC's, and not treating YMMSS like a business.

Alan, has made several references as to why YMMSS is not a ponzi, only to not realize that many of the specific references made are identical to what Charles Ponzi did with his ponzi.

Graphs of membership growth and commissions paid show the correlation between reduced membership growth causing expected CPA to pass actual CPA amounts required to maintain a stable matrix.

The CPA has been identified as a matrix by Kim (referring to the common matrix idea of 2X2 matrix model). Matrix models have been proven to be unsustainable do to the exponential growth aspect. Response to this was to start calling the matrix a ladder which you slide down when you reach the top.

The problem is the pro-YMMSS people disregard this evidence and provide nothing to refute this evidence.

As for the supposed bias toward anti-ymmss people on this forum. Well this is an anti matrix forum. YMMSS is a matrix based model. The matrix model has been proven to be a failed model well over two years ago, yet some people keep thinking they can come up with some new way to implement it that will work. As long as people refrain from making blatent libelous statements, or personal attacks, and of course refrain from profanity and vulgar language, they are free to say just about whatever they want.

But being and anti-matrix site you shouldn't expect a lot of people agreeing that a matrix will work. That group of people realized long ago the folly of their ways.

[Dreamer]

Ok, i retract my apoligy since it was obviously made in error.

If you drive your friends to a bank, and they rob the bank while you sit in the car, and you were no part of it, you will still be arrested

If your brother comes to live with you for a few months, and the police come knocking on the door, you will still be arrested for harboring a convict.

The ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Simply put, any money that is made on ymmss, with no significient outside sources coming in (no, the half a million that appears to be from the outside is not significent) you are stealing new members money. And while your still accepting other peoples money, you are stealing from them and just passing along the lies that perhaps you are willingly lying or branwashed into believing.

The truth of the matter is there is no product or service that is being sold to make money for the business. There are no success rates for the "advertising" and the price is not competitve with legit businesse, so dont try to lie to me.