YMMSS Truth Page

[Otherguy]

It would be really nice to have one single page on the web which featured testimonials from ex-members and a simple explanation of the numbers involved to keep YMMSS going. No anti-YMMSS rants, just the counterweight of facts to all the pro-YMMSS propaganda out there

I speak as somebody who had never heard of YMMSS or Ponzi. I had YMMSS reccommended to me and was attracted by the promises. I tried real hard to get some straight answers on the YMMSS forums and failed (no surprises there). I had to hunt relatively hard to find Matrix Watch to get some more info and then you have to wade through the forums. Currently MatrixWatch's YMMSS forum is on the 4th page of Googles search results for 'YMMSS'.

Clearly a lot of people don't have my persistence and give up their due diligence early to join YMMSS. If we had a page that was easier for them to reach, we might help some people stay away from YMMSS in it's dying stages.

There are currently around 1000 people a week searching on 'YMMSS' related terms on Overture. This guesstimates to 3000 a week over the whole web.

If there is a simple and easy page such as the one I described please let me know. I'd be willing to contribute a few hours time and the cost of a couple of EPC's (since I never bought any, I have the cash spare :) ) to create one if there are others who would do the same.

[surfer]

Well otherguy,

Since YMMSS is just now starting to completely
unravel, members are just beginning to figure
out that they were misled. They are starting
to step forward slowly but surely.

There are a few pages out there that show how
ridiculous the numbers would become in a very
short time if YMMSS were truly capable of
doubling everyone's income every 90 days.

I'd also like to know some of the YMMSS related
terms you're talking about on Overture. Search
terms can be targeted in discussion threads.

Do you have a particular type of breakdown in
mind?

[liveandlearn]

Hello Everyone here at Matrix Watch! I just wanted to let you all know that I have been reading your posts for some time now and I am so thankful for all that you have done to try to bring the "truth to light." I joined YMMSS at the beginning of January because of the subtle arm-twisting I got from my parents and other family members. I told them all then that I would do this but I did not think there could be a legit business out there that could survive doubling payouts forever. Regardless of that, I put in 1- $320.00 and we all know what has happened to that. lol The unfortunate thing is my parents have put in almost their whole life savings. They have however, got paid quite a bit due to them getting in earlier. They are soooo brainwashed by Kim that they are willing to give up their commissions as well and just keep their money in there convinced that CT's are going to come down soon. I am at my wits end because nothing I say convinces them that they are going to lose everything. I have sent them to this forum as well as scam.com and workathomenetwork and they get so mad at me that I could even think that Kim could ever hurt anyone much less steal their money. When I read the solid information that you all have given us with logic and real numbers and then you look at all the "smoke" that is being blown by Kim and hardcore members it blows my mind that the people like my parents, who I thought were half-way intelligent people can't see this for what it is. Do any of you have any other suggestions on how to help them understand that they are going to lose everything they have worked for all their lives if they don't get out (it is probably too late at this point huh?) I hate to ramble but I just wanted you all to know that you are making a difference... if you can reach just one or two people out there and keep them from doing what my parents have done you are to be praised!!!! :applause: Please... "Keep up the good fight!"

[Dreamer]

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/ymmss-commission-and-cycle-time-history.htm

Tell them to look at that page, and study it well. That is not biased towards or against ymmss. All it is is raw data.

Now, the way that the system works is you can say it needs to double before somebody getting paid. Now, thats not entirely true because kim takes out 25% of each sale to put in his pocket, and probably about 10-15% from outside sources. How do you calculate that?

Well, today we are working on day 10/21/04 (according to that site). The TOTAL payout for that day was approximately 37million. So, if it was a true doubler, or the ouside sourses equaled what kim took out, than at the $74million dollar mark it should have doubled. Right now we are at $89million and that date still hasen't doubled. So, kim has taken out $15million more than what is being brought into the system. This quick analysis is just going by the raw data and trying to make sence of it.

So, I suppose you can do 74/89 to find the percent, but since 10/21 still hasn't doubled, do 10/19. Want to see if the outside sourses are getting any stronger? Compare the results for 10/20, 10/19, 10/18, etc and see if you can spot a trend. Now, doing this is not calling kim a crook, or saing he's a saint, but this will give you a better idea of the company.

Now, look at the day to day payouts. You can even do an excel program to get the average of each day payout. Now, if last month they were averaging 100k/day and this month 200k/day and next month 300k/day that might be good. Crunch the numbers yourself. Have them crunch the numbers themselves.

This analysis only helps if the future continues the past trends. I doubt that it will diverge much even with more income streams coming in, because as the beast gets bigger, a $300k here and there will not help much anything because they need the beast to double every 90 days or whatever.

More logical about this system as cycle times increase people arent buying as much. and as people are finding their way to sites like this that give a more realistic picture of whats going on, the membership and purchases are dropping so bad right now.

But, this past month the average payout was about $100k/day. It looks alot worse now, but lets say it can sustain that modest payout over the entire life. So, when did you put your $320 in? January 1st lets say?

That was about $61million. If more outside sources really kick in by the time you first cycle, the total payout should be $122million. You are about 33million away from this figure. 33million is 330 days of 100k/day. So, your looking at about may 1st, 2006 you will first double. I suggest pull out your money that way.

Remember, numbers dont lie. If you are starting to feel scammed and really want them to stop putting money in it, have them run the numbers. Or, do what I did on May 3rd (I think it was). I predicted the CT will be 224 days, payout will be 90million, and working on 10/21. I'm going to start up a new thread just for predictions if anybody else wants to make any predictions. But, look at the numbers yourself, make an assement of them, and make ur own prediction for July 1st, August 1st, etc. Maybe they'll stop and listen when you hit the nail on the head (I was off by 1 million and 1 CT, so I think i hit it pretty well).

Honestly, you cant believe a word kim says, much the same you cant believe a word i say because we both have different opinions. YOu need to look at the facts and form ur own conclusion about the business based on it. Make a few predictions and see how close you are. If your close, you probably understand what is going on. If your far off, you probably are missing something.

So, do your own research. Have them do their own, and look for themselves. take out the money ASAP. Maybe kim is just not that bright that he didnt see this coming, thinking that retailers will actually give him money. But, remember, ultimately, he did set up shop in beliz so he wouldnt get sued in the states.

[drzod]

Ok, so I just went to http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not.htm and checked the cycle time update page. On the 06/01/05 cycle time update, I am referenced as being mocked by Berry and Jim. At the same time, other YMMSS members are sending me congrats on a posting where I stated that I turned $370 into $5920. Although this is true, I have never received a penny from YMMSS - I am out $400 ($30 in fees and $370 in EPC's). Since I am at work, my firewall will not let me download this conference call. Can anyone transcribe what was said about me here so other members can see this mockery? Is this how you should treat your members? I am glad that I submitted a complaint to the NC attorney general's office - although I am still waiting on a reply.

[surfer]

drzod, it was a subtle mocking, like an "inside joke"
where Jim and Barry claimed they had received an
email from someone with your testimonial as to how
well YMMSS works.

At the beginning of the call, they stated that they
were going to be having a little fun with sites like
this.

I guess they should just poke fun at all the members
who were lied to.

[Arzel]

I will transcribe that part of the call. It might take a couple of days though, I have a bunch of things to do over the weekend. It is a very subtle mocking though, and to tell you the truth I am not sure if they are mocking you or they are mocking this website.

drzod, however directly or indirectly it seems you have brought out a few more YMMSS members that are beginning to realize what is going on.

[Gringo]

Liveandlearn:
It's almost impossible to convince people like your parents that they are being scammed by Kim. People just don't think and analyze the situation rationally sometimes. Often they believe what they want to believe despite the facts so all the numbers and proof that you offer will be dismissed. You've already seen this response. The best you can do is occassionally try to plant a seed of doubt and hope that it eventually grows.

[drzod]

Interesting that this whole mess started when I submitted the comment to the NC attorney general. At least if I allowed others to see what was going on I feel better about my actions.

[unscamme]

Sorry .. I am not buying what you are selling.... Drzod

Your new born again self rightouesness!
Your own quote:
DRZOD SAID: I joined in Jan 04 with $400. Of my $400, $30 went to fees and the rest ($370) went into the matrix. In 2004 I cycled 4 times and currently (supposedly) have $5920 in YMMSS.


I've heard the best way to make money in these schemes is to get in early and cash out fast. I waited too long to cash out.

Please answer these questions carefully ...
1.Had the cycle times remained within your comfort level and you had cycled and cashed out as you say would you have come here to this forum seeking help and comfort?

2. I notice you say you are still posting to YMMSS forum so I assume you are keeping your account activated *reading ads 30 minutes per week* so if by chance you do get paid .... while you await your filing with AG .. will you take the money?
Will you seek out some who joined after you and return some to them ?

Although I may disagree with many business experts here I can say at least they are consistent... everyone can have their opinion but,

you are a stripe of a different color as I see DR Zod as your opinion are simply a reflection of your get in and get out quick not working out for you

Your new found rightousness seems to be sour grapes.. for had you chosen to get paid
earlier you would have never shown up here.. is my guess..

How much will you ask be returned you ? $400 ?

If you really in your new heart feel YMMSS is scam ... then 400 is all you should seek

My opinion of YMMSS is wait and see .. at this point still studying the ability of YM Admin to bring in outside sources of income ..


unscamme

[ycchen]

Liveandlearn:
It's almost impossible to convince people like your parents that they are being scammed by Kim. People just don't think and analyze the situation rationally sometimes. Often they believe what they want to believe despite the facts so all the numbers and proof that you offer will be dismissed. You've already seen this response. The best you can do is occassionally try to plant a seed of doubt and hope that it eventually grows.

And when the seed of doubt start to grow, tell them to ask for a refund of their investment, and NOT refund + profit because all the so called "profits" are sponsored by other latecomers after deducting 25% to Kim and his gang.

Why refund only? Here are the reasons:

1) Ponzi is an unjust money redistribution system (not a business), thus illegal. Any extra-profit you gain means someone else loses the money. The more you gain, the more others lose. It is a zero-sum game except for the owner. Therefore, a right thing to do (or an ethical exit) is to request a refund. Then, you only ask to get your money out without unintentionally "stealing" from others.

2) At this stage, your ONLY chance of cutting lost is to get a refund. With escalating CT due to the exponential growth of its pyramid structure (a destiny of ANY ponzis), if you enter on or after Nov 29, 2004 (or haven't cashout yet), your chance of seeing your money double and paid is more than 400+ days according to our analysts.

Remember, ponzi is desgined as a scam, so there is absolutely NO CURE to a ponzi. Anything the owner says or promises are all smoke screen to persuade you to stay in the scheme, waits forever, just to prevent you from requesting a refund and going to the authorities.

Lastly, we need more testimonials from YMMSS members. :)

[liveandlearn]

Thank you all for your insight and again for giving real answers with real facts. I will do my best to plant the seeds to my parents however, I feel they are "drinking the koolaid" and will continue to sing the praises of their Guru leader until it is too late for everyone. I had read in a thread somewhere (and this may be rumor) that Kim is returning some monies to some that ask for it. I thought that I would try a letter to him requesting my 320.00 back since I was promised that the CT's would never go below 90 days. Maybe if I tell him that I am going to turn this over to the AG in my state he might?? Any thoughts on how to word what to say to try to get it back? I am not sure that a threat to go to the AG would do me any good at this point. Any help or thoughts you all have would be appreciated.

[Dreamer]

I dont think threatening him would make a difference. He could probably care less. I would just ask for my original money back that u put into the system, and in good faith the profit you "made" let it stay in the system. If you really starting to see it as a scam, I wouldnt be greedy and ask for more than ur oginal purchase.

[liveandlearn]

I would not ask for more than I put in as I agree with you that anything above what I originally put in is not mine to ask for. Just the 320.00. We will see what happens. I am just glad that I did not do more than I did. I just wish that so many others that I have heard about would not have. At one point I was encouraged to put in 5000.00 on my credit card. I know there are many out there that did just that or like my parents their life savings. How sad for all of the people out there that are losing everything that they actually did work for. Thanks for the help!

[Arzel]

I would not ask for more than I put in as I agree with you that anything above what I originally put in is not mine to ask for. Just the 320.00. We will see what happens. I am just glad that I did not do more than I did. I just wish that so many others that I have heard about would not have. At one point I was encouraged to put in 5000.00 on my credit card. I know there are many out there that did just that or like my parents their life savings. How sad for all of the people out there that are losing everything that they actually did work for. Thanks for the help!

I am glad you feel that way, and hope that you are able to get your money back. I have been following YMMSS for quite some time and am aware that there are a number of people that have invested significant ammounts of money into YMMSS.

I certainly hope that they (your parents) are able to get most of their investment back out, but history does not bode well for them. In the original Ponzi scheme the average investors was able to get about 37% of their original investment back out.

It hurts to see your parents get trapped into these things as well, my parents are not all that computer savy, so I make sure to make them aware of these scams all the time, but I still worry they will fall into one of these scams, they are quite enticing. :(

[pawnhead]

Currently MatrixWatch's YMMSS forum is on the 4th page of Googles search results for 'YMMSS'.Doing a Google search for YMMSS, the fourth entry is Scam.com. WorkAtHomeNetwork.com is number fifteen and MatrixWatch is twenty nine.
It’s a complex algorithm that takes into account the number of links, the number of hits from a referring site, and the number of times that YMMSS is mentioned on the site.
If you type into Google “Miserable Failure”, and you click “I’m feeling lucky”, then you’ll get George Bush. It’s the first entry in a standard search.
It’s called a Google bomb and it’s explained here http://searchenginewatch.com/sereport/article.php/3296101
If some sites were to post a link to “MatrixWatch YMMSSS forum”, using a hyperlink displaying the term YMMSS (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=84), then it would raise your ranking in a search for YMMSS, depending on the number of links, the number of sites linking, and the ranking of the linking site.
If I were to post a link to YMMSS using the term "Rip off ponzi scam (http://www.ymforums.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=ec6f55b17a7d58caa370d740802267c3)", then YMMSS would come up in a search for “Rip off”, or “Ponzi”’ or “Scam”, but it would also increase their rank in a regular search. Since they're already number one, and I doubt you'll overtake them, you can't do any damage.
If you want to visit YMMSS forums, and you think they're a rip off then you should use the above link instead of the one that's posted elswhere on these forums.
If you click on those links, you'll see what I mean. If you right click on them, and select "Properties" then you'll see the destination. But the more times you click on them, the greater the weight they carry in a search.
If anyone has a website, they could help in this, but don't go spamming your own website with links, as Google frowns on this and you could be banned from their search engine if it's obvious. A few links in the correct context would be no problem.

edit: - That's also the method that some people use to hide their referral number in a link, so right click to see where you're going before you click, even if it looks like a legitimate link. You can remove the referral with copy and paste.

[pawnhead]

Do any of you have any other suggestions on how to help them understand that they are going to lose everything they have worked for all their lives if they don't get out (it is probably too late at this point huh?) I hate to ramble but I just wanted you all to know that you are making a difference... if you can reach just one or two people out there and keep them from doing what my parents have done you are to be praised!!!! :applause: Please... "Keep up the good fight!"Maybe there is something you can do, although I’m not sure if it would help your parents at this stage.

If you read the above post.
I’m thinking of starting up a free blog about YMMSS, including links to this site and theirs, along with several other cheap sites that are promoting YMMSS.
Popular blog links can affect a search engine and the more blogs there are, the more effect they’ll have.
The more the word spreads, the easier it will be for people to do their Due Diligence, and the less chance they have of being sucked in by the current recruitment drive.
There are some brilliant posts here and you guys have certainly been thorough with your investigations. It might be handy to make some quotations, giving credit where it’s due. I would of course seek your permission first.
Otherwise I could just include my own posts.
What do you guys think?

[Arzel]

Maybe there is something you can do, although I’m not sure if it would help your parents at this stage.

If you read the above post.
I’m thinking of starting up a free blog about YMMSS, including links to this site and theirs, along with several other cheap sites that are promoting YMMSS.
Popular blog links can affect a search engine and the more blogs there are, the more effect they’ll have.
The more the word spreads, the easier it will be for people to do their Due Diligence, and the less chance they have of being sucked in by the current recruitment drive.
There are some brilliant posts here and you guys have certainly been thorough with your investigations. It might be handy to make some quotations, giving credit where it’s due. I would of course seek your permission first.
Otherwise I could just include my own posts.
What do you guys think?

I think you have a great idea, feel free to use any of my quotes to help people avoid scams such as these.

[Arzel]

Part of the problem with YMMSS is the faulty logic, and the correlation made with the logic.

YMMSS has been defending itself against being a Ponzi for quite some time. Even in presence of what should be unquestionable reason they still literally scream "YMMSS IS NOT A PONZI OR A DOUBLER. YOU GET PAID TO READ ADS!!!".

At this point it appears that approximately 99.0% to 99.5% of the revenue has come from EPC purchases ($335,000 of the $90,000,000 has been absolutely stated to come from outside sources, and there is probably some others that I have missed, but since YMMSS makes a point of mentioning the big ones I don't think it could be more than $1,000,000). So, when faced with the fact that the vast majority of money being paid out comes from members and is paid to other members, which is a Ponzi, statements about what a Ponzi are used to prove that YMMSS is not.

Be aware of the fact that ~ 75% of the incoming member ad purchases (EPC's) funds go to the commissions payable account, as opposed to the 100% that would be essential to a true Ponzi, and you already know how quickly a true Ponzi will die... So imagine a Ponzi with only 75% of its revenue... it would die rather faster, would it not? Has YMMSS collapsed? Answer: NO. Meaning? Clearly not a Ponzi.


Unfortunately this is just not true. Charles Ponzi took in approximately $9.8 million during his run, and paid out about $7.8 million leaving about 20%. Much of this was used to pay commissions toward agents working for him, lavish trips and gift, and a huge mansion.

As much as YMMSS claims to not be a Ponzi more and more it appears that it is. The connection between the two:

YMMSS - Originally stated that cycle times to double the value would never be greater than 90 days.
Ponzi - Guaranteed to double in 90 days.

YMMSS - Purchase of resort in Belize
Ponzi - Purchase of Mansion

YMMSS - Kim taking many trips to Belize on company money
Ponzi - Lavish trips for friends and family

YMMSS - Company keeps 25% with Kim directly keeping 11%
Ponzi - Company keeps approximately 20% with Charles keeping a good portion for himself (purchase of mansion alone was most likely a few percent.)

YMMSS – Has reported commissions paid of approximately $89 million dollars, and estimated revenue of $118.7 million dollars.
Ponzi – When it went down had collected approximately $9.8 million with payments of $7.8 million, converted to today’s dollars is equivalent to $70 million and $93 million respectively.

Below is an interesting Minnesota Public Radio description of Charles Ponzi and his scam. It is about 3 and a half minutes of streaming audio. You will notice a lot of similarities between Charles and Kim.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2005/03/17/AM200503171.html