YMMSS - DrZod Get's them talking

[drzod]

Here is what I posted on all three YMMSS forums (gold, silver, and general) on 06/07/05:

Set the record straight. I know that this will get deleted, but hopefully some of you will get to read it first.

A lot of sites are popping up claiming that YMMSS is nothing more than an elaborate ponzi scheme (just go to Google and search for YMMSS). Everything suggesting this on these forums is deleted and responses are sent back to the person posting to the forum to “hang in there” that things will get better and that YMMSS is legit.

The truth is that things are not getting better. Since the new website was launched on 11/18/04, the cycle time has increased from 90 days to 228 days (138 days). In fact, the cycle time is going up 6-7 days per week, so you never gain any ground (at most 1 day per week). In the meantime, you are encouraged to keep buying EPC’s.

Why on earth would you do so? If you got paid around the time the server was installed, you haven’t gotten paid since (or at most a few stray EPC’s here or there). As a result, you are working for free reading all those ads. How many of you would work for free for six months? I know I wouldn’t. Worse yet, some people are continuing to buy EPC’s based upon what they are reading on the forums. Open your eyes – buying more EPC’s will not help the cycle time. If it would the cycle time would have leveled off and decreased already.

I would love to believe in YMMSS again, and have the ponzi idea disproved, but if this is the case, YMMSS management has a lot of work to do.

The new site has been launched, YM Auctions has been created, pay it forward is now an option, and the $300 K was added to the commissions account. However the cycle time has not stopped increasing at its ridiculous pace. Why not? What will it take to stop the cycle time from increasing – and the answer is not to buy more EPC’s. If you truly care about your existing members, place a stop on all new money coming in and pay your existing members. A lot of us will run out of EPC’s soon and be unable to post. What do we do then?

Why didn’t you cap the doubling nature of the business at a certain level? Theoretically, you could double forever. Do the math – this is impossible.

Since this is “our” business, why can’t we see financial information? Most companies release an annual report showing their assets and liabilities. As paying members of YMMSS we want to see this information. Where did the $300 K come from? Was it legit? What other investment options have you chosen. If you were considering buying stock in YMMSS would you do so? Without knowing investment elections and financial information I would think not.

Why don’t you acknowledge these sites out there? Doesn’t it bother you that people do not believe what you are saying – including many of your own members?

We want actions – not words. Prove to us how you are going to deliver on your promises. Stop talking and act!

Not surprisingly, it was deleted from the gold, silver, and general forums and it was mentioned that my account privileges might be taken away.

[drzod]

Ok, so I rocked the boat enought to get even Kim's attention.

At 7:45 p.m. EST on 06/07/05 I received a call at home from Kim. The caller ID said IN, but it kept beeping like a call placed international. Kim received multiple complaints about the post listed in this thread and just wanted to talk things over. I explained my concerns and summarized the posting for him since he said he did not read it. He never got upset about me thinking YMMSS was a ponzi, and offered the following:

He has hired Mike Hamilton for the retail position. In the coming weeks/months (he would not commit to a timeframe), YMMSS members will be surveyed for demographic information so that retailers can better target their advertising.

Posts to the forums will need to be approved before they can be posted (this way there are no happy birthdays, etc.)

The servers are supposed to be up by Friday (06/10/05).

I repeated my request that actions speak louder than words and asked why he doesn't post some log on what is coming up as far as changes to YMMSS. I told him this information would help members especially if it included financial information, timelines, etc. He was very hesitant to use timelines since he has been burned before.

I give him credit for calling, but after talking with him directly, I see one of two things:

Either he is one of the most wicked and sly con men ever, or he actually believes that YMMSS will work.

I welcome your thoughts.

[surfer]

Either he is one of the most wicked and sly con men ever, or he actually believes that YMMSS will work.

The longer he continues to push this unsustainable
commission structure, the more I consider it to be
the former. :)

Kim is supposed to be a mathematical wiz so he
should well know that his "business" is definitely
not designed to last generations.

Even if the big income stream were real
and showed up next July or August, $18-$20
million/week still wouldn't be enough to keep
cycle times at 90 days. YMMSS would need
to be "paying" about $90 million/week at that
time.

Then 90 days later they would need to be
"paying" closer to $200 million/week. :head:

Simply impossible to keep up.

[Gringo]

Either he is one of the most wicked and sly con men ever, or he actually believes that YMMSS will work.

Giving him the benfit of doubt, here's what could be going on: When he first came up with the idea of a doubler he knew it could not perpetuate itself forever. He has admited this. So to fix this limitation he came up with 2 solutions. 1. As membership increases, the lifetime of the doubler will get shorter, but more members mean a potentially more attractive audience for advertisers, thus more income. 2. Have a reserve fund to feed the doubler when it stalls and look for other investments to feed the doubler.

Of course this business model is flawed and the soultions don't work for many reasons that have already been discussed, but for a couple of years things went pretty smooth since the ponzi was still in the self perpetuating growth stage. This convinced Kim that his plan worked and was a solid business model.

Now he has thousands of people involved including friends and family. His reputation and ego are at stake. Given this, it's easily conceivable that his wishing and wanting to believe this thing works will cloud the reality of the facts proving it won't. Look at all the followers that are still sold beyond doubt on it and they have less at stake. Would your judgement be a little clouded if you were being paid millions of dollars per month and to face reality would mean the loss of your income and reputation?

The above is not meant to excuse him in any way for the financial disaster that he is creating for thousands of people.

On the other hand, there are indications that he is acting rationally with full knowledge of the reality of what's going on. For example when the time came to implement his plan to add funds when the cycle time went over 90 days, he abandons the plan, supposedly for better long term investments. In my opinion, he clearly saw that the problem was so enormous that he would be just flushing his profits away and it wouldn't fix the problem. The fact that he won't consider reducing his 25% cut on purchases in light of the problems now is also suspect.

I have to agree with surfer that the longer it goes on, the clearer it is that YMMSS is failing and the more evidence there is that Kim is not an innocent victim of his own delusions.

[200_K_already]

I vowed never to return to read the rubbish in this forum. However, out of morbid curiosity I did. I was bored and needed a laugh.

Anyway, I have to hand it to you guy's - atleast you are consitent.

You really, really have no idea what you are talking about. Some who use this forum I recognise from the YMforum and some I do not.

The above is not meant to excuse him in any way for the financial disaster that he is creating for thousands of people.

There are plenty of people getting paid and have been paid too. Kim's vison for the company is a laudable one.

May I challenge those who spend their entire lives, throwing dirt into other people's wells (bloody philistines), that when YMMSS get's through it's current position, you will have enough respectability to retract all that you have said and issue a public apology for attacking Kim.

This forum would have more credibility if you guy's avoided words like scam, con-man, delusional etc. Stick with the issues and leave the personalities alone. It's not nice.

Also, the person who say's that some members treat KIm like the Son of God. Dont be ridiculous.

I do however count him to be a friend and he is the most genuine man I have encountered on the internet. He, for instance, woyuld never join a forum like this and say terrible things about any of you. He is a good hearted man.

Furthermore, Kim does not get paid 11% of all purchases. Whoever told you that has their wires crossed.

11% is overheads and 11% is COMPANY profit including monies for expansion into other areas.

The info on here is usually inaccurate and what isn't, is out of date.

2ka

[Gringo]

There are plenty of people getting paid and have been paid too.

Not that it will make any difference to the followers, since they only believe things that come from the mouth of Kim, but I'll respond anyway. Plenty of people DO get paid from a ponzi, in the beginning. That's what brings more people in. Eventually the pay slows down to nil and most people don't get paid. This is what is happening right now. Most people in YMMSS have NOT been paid.

The fact is that YMMSS has caused and continues to cause a financial disaster to many people. You'd have to be blind not to see the posts on the YMMSS forums of people in serious financial crisis as a result of not getting paid in the 60 - 90 days that Kim always promised. Just check out a few in the Cycle Time Watch forum.

May I challenge those who spend their entire lives, throwing dirt into other people's wells (bloody philistines), that when YMMSS get's through it's current position, you will have enough respectability to retract all that you have said and issue a public apology for attacking Kim.
I'll be happy to, but they won't get through this crisis. It can't be fixed. Will you issue a public apology for defending and support the con man when CT reach 300, 400, 500? Probably not. Some people will go down with the ship never wanting to admit their mistakes.
Furthermore, Kim does not get paid 11% of all purchases. Whoever told you that has their wires crossed. 11% is overheads and 11% is COMPANY profit including monies for expansion into other areas.
Okay, it's company profit, and who owns the company? Not the members. I don't have a stock certificate showing that I own a portion. Kim owns the LLC that is YMMSS, therefore KIM gets 11%. It is you that has the wires crossed.

[gmsource]

I agree with you Gringo. You are right on target I believe. Unfortunately I invested, using a credit card, thinking I would get my princpal back + more within 90 days. After all, my sponsor showed his receipts of income. But he was in on it at the beginning.

Hey, Drzod, I live in Charlotte too. Small world, huh?

[surfer]

Welcome back to the forums Alan. ;)

Glad to see Gringo straightened you out.
YMMSS = Kim so 11% to YMMSS = 11% to
Kim.

Might as well mention another point that has
not been covered here yet.

Not only does Kim get his 11% cut from all
EPC purchases, as the creator of YMMSS, he
has a ton of positions in the matrix as well so
that he can take an even greater portion.

He gets credit for allegedly PIFing :rolleyes: his
positions from now through 11/18, but he's also
double dipping from the ponzi pool. I guess 11%
just isn't enough for him.

From his post in the IT4US thread (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=21895#post21895), we already
know Alan considers something legit if he's able
to get in early enough to get paid. Doesn't matter
how many get shafted at the end.

Last I heard, that was stalled as well.

BTW, damn right I'll apologize if YMMSS could turn
things around long term. But they can't. As I
mentioned above, even if the big, long term
investments materialized in summer/fall 2006, they
need to grow exponentially every cycle to maintain.

If you even bothered to do the numbers Alan, you'd
see it can't be maintained with a doubler commission
structure. Even some of your more sensible YMForum
members are starting to figure that out.

Sorry Alan, "terrible" people deserve to have "terrible"
things said about them. I'm still not lumping Kim Inman
into that "terrible" group yet. But the more dreams
and lives that he continues to ruin, the closer he gets.

He lied about putting funds in to keep cycle times
at or below 90 days.

He conveniently forgot to mention that there is no
profit coming from the Belize resort while using it
as proof that he has outside income coming in to the
ponzi.

For several months, he also conveniently and consistently
misspoke about a $60-$70K weekly outside income
source that all of a sudden was supposedly only monthly
and just became $35k weekly.

Just how long do servers need to be tested BTW. lol

Sorry Alan, but a lot of what Kim says doesn't add up.

Feel free to enlighten me on any of my inaccurate or
outdated info. :rolleyes:

[drzod]

Hey 200_K_already. Does this title imply that you have already made $200 K with YMMSS? If so, you are holding my investment, and several thousands of dollars from members who are panicking due to the ever-rising cycle times. Are you happy now? Feel good about yourself? Just remember what comes around goes around. Some YMMSS members have invested their entire life savings. All they get in response is "hang in there," or "we're just going through some growing pains," or "buy more EPC's." Why doesn't everyone like yourself who has made "thousands" from YMMSS create a refund pool for those of us who have yet to see a cent? Better yet, if YMMSS is legit, why does our membership agreement state that there will be no refunds because we are buying advertising? A step in the right direction would be to provide refunds for those who want them. If we all could get our money back I think we would all admit we were wrong and this forum would disappear. Enjoy spending my money - go buy yourself something nice.

[Casandra]

Okay, it's company profit, and who owns the company? Not the members. I don't have a stock certificate showing that I own a portion. Kim owns the LLC that is YMMSS, therefore KIM gets 11%. It is you that has the wires crossed.Exactly! Whenever Kim mentions the outside investments, he is careful to note that this is money out of his pocket and he is taking all the associated risks on investment himself.

I would go further and say that Kim owns the resort in Belize. He bought it for YMMSS, but who has gotten the most use out of it thus far? Who holds the deed?

How quickly we forget....

[Train]

Now that's just wrong. Alan. You've already made 200k off this ponzi? How can you possibly look at yourself in the mirror every morning full-well knowing this money belongs to people who can't even afford some of the basics of life now because of the monsterous cycle times? Some people have their entire life savings in there and haven't seen a dime. A refund pool would be a great way for you to REALLY show your faith in YMMSS instead of telling people to "hang in there". Why don't you give back from the people you took.

[surfer]

Exactly! Whenever Kim mentions the outside investments, he is careful to note that this is money out of his pocket and he is taking all the associated risks on investment himself.

Yep, more deception.

How many more people do you think would have
bailed out if Kim wasn't using these huge outside
income streams as the proverbial carrot on a stick?

Whether or not these income streams really exist,
it won't be Kim Inman's life, hopes, and dreams
that get crushed when they don't come through.

By using these investments as a promotional tool
Kim continues to take 25% of every dollar members
put in.

FYI, according to Alan, he has not made $200K from
YMMSS. Unless he did it in the 40 days since he last
posted.

[Arzel]

Additionally.

Jim and Berry both state that those profits are Kim's to do with what he wants. This is clearly stated in a conference call.

[MatrixWatch]

I vowed never to return to read the rubbish in this forum. However, out of morbid curiosity I did. I was bored and needed a laugh.

Anyway, I have to hand it to you guy's - atleast you are consitent.


First off, you haven't made 200K off this scam. You are full of garbage on that one. And the very fact that you came back to post tells me that you still see this site as some sort of threat, which means that what our members have been claiming has some degreet of impact.

And if you don't agree with the claims that have been made here, and you think that they are false, then why not offer some solid evidence and argumentation to the contrary.

If I bring up facts claiming that someone is doing something wrong, and that person simply responds by saying--"No I'm not. I am a good person, and you are just a sensational liar"--then that would a bad response. Why? Because it merely addresses my conclusion with a non-defended counter claim. And your personal attacks really don't do anything to bring the dialogue any closer to the real issue. It only reveals that you really have no substance to your claims, since personal assaults are what scammers often wage against those who are turning the lights on and exposing to everyone what is really going on.

We've already been attacked and slandered by various scammers, and those guys have gone down in flames a long time ago. This situation is no different, and you and your friends will soon see just how powerful a large group of coordinated and active members can be.

Have fun with your imaginary 200K. You might want to consider reinvesting it somewhere else from now on. :cool:

[200_K_already]

Firstly

Train said

Now that's just wrong. Alan. You've already made 200k off this ponzi?

And

Watchdog said

First off, you haven't made 200K off this scam. You are full of garbage on that one.

To assume, makes an a s s out of U and me

Surfer also told you this, I did not make 200K from YM. Not yet anyway.


Im surprised the Chief Admin guy here is actually calling YMMSS a scam.

You all hide behind your user names in this forum and make ridiculous claims about a company that has only laudable goals. It's never a scam and KIm is not a conman.

Why dont you put your money where your mouthis and challenge YM in court? Or shut up?

And the very fact that you came back to post tells me that you still see this site as some sort of threat,

I can assure you, it's just curiosity and sport. YM is fireproof and doing a lot of good. They will succeed because they want to. And so do most of the memebrs apart from the few sad cases who post their critcism in here.

By the way, if you PM me, I'll supply you with my email and phone number if you like. Are you guy's willing to be so open?

Alan

[surfer]

You all hide behind your user names in this forum and make ridiculous claims about a company that has only laudable goals. It's never a scam and KIm is not a conman.

A bit hypocritical coming from someone in a company
that's hiding in Belize. Wouldn't want the law to get
in the way of Kim's ponzi money. lol

Why dont you put your money where your mouthis and challenge YM in court? Or shut up?

Alan

I'm not one of the victims that was lied to, so I don't
have a case.

It's hilarious how all you know how to do is call people
names and never respond to the issues.

[Arzel]

Firstly

Train said



And

Watchdog said


To assume, makes an a s s out of U and me

Surfer also told you this, I did not make 200K from YM. Not yet anyway.


Im surprised the Chief Admin guy here is actually calling YMMSS a scam.

You all hide behind your user names in this forum and make ridiculous claims about a company that has only laudable goals. It's never a scam and KIm is not a conman.

Why dont you put your money where your mouthis and challenge YM in court? Or shut up?



I can assure you, it's just curiosity and sport. YM is fireproof and doing a lot of good. They will succeed because they want to. And so do most of the memebrs apart from the few sad cases who post their critcism in here.

By the way, if you PM me, I'll supply you with my email and phone number if you like. Are you guy's willing to be so open?

Alan

For a fireproof company, it sure does seem to be smoderling a lot lately, and when cycle times hit 365 it will probably flame up completely.

I am surprised that one of the YMMSS moderators would come to our forum, use a moderatly profane word and disparage YMMSS members, particularly since in the public YM forums, moderators will edit or delete just about any post that says something they don't want people to be asking. Kind of hypocritical don't you think?

All fighting aside, I do have one question which I know won't be answered in the YM forums, so I will ask you here. Why don't you let people read the ads without being a YM member? You basically have what are little more than a classified newspaper section, I would think if people are trying to sell goods and services they would like as many people as possible to see them.

[Salsa]

Dr Zod: You have become a huge asset to a good cause. Keep up the good work!

Either he is one of the most wicked and sly con men ever, or he actually believes that YMMSS will work.If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, waddles like a duck, eats like a duck, craps like a duck... it's a duck. YMMSS has all the hallmarks of a Ponzi, powered by a keen affinity fraud, and practically none of a legitimate business. It is inconceivable to me that a scheme as intricately engineered as YMMSS could have been created with honorable intentions.

Salsa

[liveandlearn]

Hi Everyone!

I sent a request for refund (not to sell my position) into Kim & Co and got a response. HAHA (form letter) I am posting below the response I got. What a joke! I thought you all would be interested in reading it. I have some ocean front property that I will sell along with my EPC position. Any takers? I also have a question. My family members received 1099's from YM they say this proves that it is not a scam. What do you guys think? Is that just part of making it look good at first? Is that normal for a Ponzi or is it Kims added twist to help people keep the faith? Let me know what you think. Here is the letter:
Thanks again.

Hello!

Please read and FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS EXACTLY.

In order to sell your positions for you I need you to send me a fax that includes a copy of your Government Issued Picture ID which includes your address and it must match your YMMSS Profile. Please make sure that we can read your Government Issued Pictured ID. We suggest that you copy your ID and increase the size 125% before faxing it. We must have a readable copy of your ID before we can proceed.

Also includes a written statement with the exact positions that you wish me to sell for you. THERE CAN BE NO STATEMENT THAT THIS IS A REFUND. YMMSS does not give refunds, but we will help you sell your positions. Of course, you should know that it is easier to sell the ones that are do to cycle in the next month or so. You understand that it may take some time for us to find a buyer for your positions. This can take up to 7 to 10 days if you have less than 10 positions that you are selling. Positions that have long cycle dates may take longer to sell.

State that you understand that positions will be sold at the "Gross Value" of your position and not the "Upcoming Commission Amount". You can locate the "Gross Value" by logging into your account and selecting "My YMMSS" and then selecting "Upcoming EPC Commissions". We must be able to read these statements before we can sell your positions for you.

You must also include your YMMSS Username that you use to login to your website with.

If your purchase was made by IntGold or StormPay, then we will pay those services for the positions that we sell. Your are responsible for any fees that they may change. If the purchase was made using e-Gold, then you will receive payment via your IntGold or StormPay account that are already registered with YMMSS. If the purchase was made by Credit Card then we will credit your Credit Card Account and you understand that you will NOT RECEIVE ANY FUNDS TO YOUR INTGOLD OR STORMPAY ACCOUNT. At no time will we pay IntGold or StormPay if your purchase was made by Credit Card. We WILL NOT issue a Company Check. If you did not make your purchase with a Credit Card, then your only options for us to send monies for the positions that we sell for you is through IntGold or StormPay.

All this is done for your protection.

You will then sign the document and fax it to: 1-206-350-1125. After we receive this we will do our best to sell your positions in a timely manner, but you understand that we do not guarantee that we can sell your positions. You can watch the progress by logging into your account.

Sincerely,

Kim

[Arzel]

Hi Everyone!

I sent a request for refund (not to sell my position) into Kim & Co and got a response. HAHA (form letter) I am posting below the response I got. What a joke! I thought you all would be interested in reading it. I have some ocean front property that I will sell along with my EPC position. Any takers? I also have a question. My family members received 1099's from YM they say this proves that it is not a scam. What do you guys think? Is that just part of making it look good at first? Is that normal for a Ponzi or is it Kims added twist to help people keep the faith? Let me know what you think. Here is the letter:
Thanks again.


The issuing of 1099's does not prove it is not a scam. Look what happened with Enron. Many matrix sites provided 1099's for the value of the gifts, or money in case of cash value, for people that cycled. If anything it is a protection for them because they can then write off all that money as expense and not have to pay taxes on it. When you have that much money coming into your business, the IRS wants to know where it is coming from and where it is going. So, it is a pretty common statement, and seems to be used as a reason for legitimacy, when it really is more of a protection for Kim.


Hello!

Please read and FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS EXACTLY.

In order to sell your positions for you I need you to send me a fax that includes a copy of your Government Issued Picture ID which includes your address and it must match your YMMSS Profile. Please make sure that we can read your Government Issued Pictured ID. We suggest that you copy your ID and increase the size 125% before faxing it. We must have a readable copy of your ID before we can proceed.

Also includes a written statement with the exact positions that you wish me to sell for you. THERE CAN BE NO STATEMENT THAT THIS IS A REFUND. YMMSS does not give refunds, but we will help you sell your positions. Of course, you should know that it is easier to sell the ones that are do to cycle in the next month or so. You understand that it may take some time for us to find a buyer for your positions. This can take up to 7 to 10 days if you have less than 10 positions that you are selling. Positions that have long cycle dates may take longer to sell.

State that you understand that positions will be sold at the "Gross Value" of your position and not the "Upcoming Commission Amount". You can locate the "Gross Value" by logging into your account and selecting "My YMMSS" and then selecting "Upcoming EPC Commissions". We must be able to read these statements before we can sell your positions for you.

You must also include your YMMSS Username that you use to login to your website with.

If your purchase was made by IntGold or StormPay, then we will pay those services for the positions that we sell. Your are responsible for any fees that they may change. If the purchase was made using e-Gold, then you will receive payment via your IntGold or StormPay account that are already registered with YMMSS. If the purchase was made by Credit Card then we will credit your Credit Card Account and you understand that you will NOT RECEIVE ANY FUNDS TO YOUR INTGOLD OR STORMPAY ACCOUNT. At no time will we pay IntGold or StormPay if your purchase was made by Credit Card. We WILL NOT issue a Company Check. If you did not make your purchase with a Credit Card, then your only options for us to send monies for the positions that we sell for you is through IntGold or StormPay.

All this is done for your protection.

You will then sign the document and fax it to: 1-206-350-1125. After we receive this we will do our best to sell your positions in a timely manner, but you understand that we do not guarantee that we can sell your positions. You can watch the progress by logging into your account.

Sincerely,

Kim

I am still unsure why they need all that information for some of their transactions. If you mail them your information and tell them to refund your account why do they need your id for your protection? It is not like someone else is going to get your refund. I suppose they say that people could hack your email or whatever and sell your positions to someone without your knowledge (in the case where you are about to cycle and someone buys your positions right before and makes a quick windfall).

Perhaps I am missing something, but it seems more like a way to make it difficult to sell your positions.

[MatrixWatch]

Firstly

I did not make 200K from YM. Not yet anyway.



And I don't believe that you ever will. My hope is that you get your money out of there ASAP. Trust me. There are plenty of matrix-site supporters out there who kept their money tied up in these things until the bitter end, and now I bet that several of them are wishing that they listened to us, dropped the pride, and called their bank. They'd have that money today.



Im surprised the Chief Admin guy here is actually calling YMMSS a scam.


I am highly skeptical about YMMSS, and yes, after further research I am now leaning heavily toward the opinion that YMMSS is a scam. Intentions, motives, and ambitions really mean nothing to me. It is the legitimacy and sustainability YMMSS' structure that I am concerned about.

I've dealt with several schemes over the past couple years, and it amazes me that as soon as we start making statistical or legal arguments about one of these things, the supporters come out of the woodwork to tell us how noble and righeous the motives of the owner are.

(Aside: I sometimes suspect that it is actually the owner him/herself who is making these claims through another alias forum ID).

And each time, these supporters/owners seem to think that we have never heard their arguments before. It is really all the same everytime, and sadly for the victims, it will have the same end as the other get-rich-quick schemes of history's past.



You all hide behind your user names in this forum and make ridiculous claims about a company that has only laudable goals. It's never a scam and KIm is not a conman.

What I just said above probably makes more sense now for those of you who are reading this. I rest my case. :rolleyes:



Why dont you put your money where your mouthis and challenge YM in court? Or shut up?

Huh? How about you start responding to some of the logical and statistical evidence that we've been bringing up? Our research suggests that YMMSS is slowing down, and this evidence seems to justify earlier claims that some of us made about YM's structure being very much like a ponzi scheme, where the structure of the system begins to work against itself, and the growth eventually seizes, causing a massive lost of consumer confidence and a subsequentl collapse.

And many of us would never send YM a dime, so what right would we have to sue them?



I can assure you, it's just curiosity and sport. YM is fireproof and doing a lot of good. They will succeed because they want to. And so do most of the memebrs apart from the few sad cases who post their critcism in here.

They'll succeed because they want to? Is this the answer to the negative historical evidence we have on these sorts of schemes. According to this logic, I should jump off a nearby cliff and fulfill my lifelong dream of flying, since the laws of gravity are entirely subject to my ambitions. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I see... Only the members here are the ones who are losing out. Everyone else is happy, right? Well, how about the trends that caused some of your members to come here? Will those trends continue, and if not, then how will YM address them?

With no answers or solutions to these questions, you are likely to see the membership on these boards growing soon.



By the way, if you PM me, I'll supply you with my email and phone number if you like. Are you guy's willing to be so open?


Actually, many of the core members here talk over the phone and via email quite regularly. Some of us who have been in this thing for awhile have become very good friends as well.

I've learned to be a little careful when it comes to hard-core supporters of large scams, though. They tend to be a bit unscrupulous when their treasures are threatened, and they will often do whatever is needed to keep people from coming forward when it would hurt their profits. It isn't them that I'm afraid of, it is their greed, and I wouldn't want to give my phone number and email to a person like that.

This is just me though.



It seems that you have a lot of undefended and unjustified faith in YMMSS, and you appear to assume that the future will be bright, despite what the current evidence shows. It is okay to assume things like this if you'd like, but just remember what you said it makes out of U and ME. :)

[gmsource]

liveandlearn: Thanks for posting that info. I plan to try and get my $400 back. I'm glad I don't have any more than that although it really hurts. I had to put it on credit card and I really can't afford to lose this money, but if it happens, so be it. I thought with the additional income streams and the plans to get national advertisers involved that maybe this co. was legit (I did have some doubts in the beginning but I threw caution to the wind). I really think this thing is ponzi, no doubt.

[concerned]

In order to sell your positions for you I need you to send me a fax that includes a copy of your Government Issued Picture ID which includes your address and it must match your YMMSS Profile. Please make sure that we can read your Government Issued Pictured ID. We suggest that you copy your ID and increase the size 125% before faxing it. We must have a readable copy of your ID before we can proceed.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that they also want to commit identity theft. Why not, after all, they have stolen your money, so why not your identity?

Also [/b]includes[/b] a written statement with the exact positions that you wish me to sell for you.

It should NOT have an s at the end. It is not plural.

THERE CAN BE NO STATEMENT THAT THIS IS A REFUND. YMMSS does not give refunds, but we will help you sell your positions.

All reputable companies give refunds. In fact, in my opinion, EPCs are like stocks. When you sell a stock on the exchange, you can do it immediately. You don't have to wait for a buyer. Sometimes the company buys it back and then sells it again. Why can't YMMSS do it like this?


Of course, you should know that it is easier to sell the ones that are do to cycle in the next month or so.

Of course Kim should know that the word should be spelled D U E.

We WILL NOT issue a Company Check. If you did not make your purchase with a Credit Card, then your only options for us to send monies for the positions that we sell for you is through IntGold or StormPay.

All this is done for your protection.

They won't issue a company check, and they say it is for your protection? In my mind, the only protection I could get would be a check that is tracable. It also acts like a reciept that they made the payment. I guess they don't like paper trails.

[200_K_already]

It's shocking the amount of misinformation that is displayed in this one thread. YM mebers who come here get there heads filled up with so much garbage that they actually begin to believe it.

YOu accuse people like me of not answering the issues raised in here. I would be here all night.

When I said YM will succeed because they want it to, I have a reason for that.

Most online businesses that vanish, do so because when they begin to have difficulties, they just throw the towel in and run away.

That is why YM will succeed, because they will ride out the tough times and come through the other side.

I would suggest to any members who are thinking about pulling the plug, think again.

I am so confident, that I am introducing a long term friend to the business within the next few days.

What you dont know

On this site, what you dont know, you make up. What you know a little of, you exaggerate. The greatest victim in this forum is the truth.

I would love to have an intellegent debate with any one of you. If you want my email addy, PM me.

Alan

[Casandra]

I would love to have an intellegent debate with any one of you. If you want my email addy, PM me.

Alan
Why would you need to hide it? Debate works in this forum. It feels as though "intelligent debate" is welcomed here.

[Arzel]

It's shocking the amount of misinformation that is displayed in this one thread. YM mebers who come here get there heads filled up with so much garbage that they actually begin to believe it.

YOu accuse people like me of not answering the issues raised in here. I would be here all night.

When I said YM will succeed because they want it to, I have a reason for that.

Most online businesses that vanish, do so because when they begin to have difficulties, they just through the towel in and run away.

That is why YM will succeed, because they will ride out the tough times and come through the other side.

I would suggest to any members who are thinking about pulling the plug, think again.

I am so confident, that I am introducing a long term friend to the business within the next few days.

What you dont know

On this site, what you dont know, you make up. What you know a little of, you exaggerate. The greatest victim in this forum is the truth.

I would love to have an intellegent debate with any one of you. If you want my email addy, PM me.

Alan

Do you ever answer a question with a straight answer or do you prefer to just make rambling insulting posts.

You quoted earlier that Kim does not get 11% of the EPC sales off the top (part of the 25%) and that it goes to the company. You stated this as proof that we present miss-information. However Jim and Berry have both stated that Kim does get 11% right off the top and that it is his to do whaterver he pleases. To paraphrase "He could stick that money right in his pocket if he would like". (I will add the actual transcript later when I get a chance.)

Now, one of us is wrong. Would you care to make a direct comment on this, or shoud we expect further rambling insults?

[surfer]

Sorry Alan. Misinformation is when ponzis like YMMSS
blame skyrocketing cycle times on "Murphy" and
"technical glitches". LOL

The main reason for escalating cycle times is the
same as it is in any other doubler/ponzi scheme. Kim
can't bring in enough revenue to pay off past investors
in the timeframe that he promised them.

It's simple math Alan.

Kim will never be able to generate enough revenue to
keep pace.

Isn't it funny that many of us knew cycle times would
go through the roof well before the new website
launched back in Novemeber. And we knew exactly
why it would happen. Sounds like very accurate
information to me. ;)

None of us here lied about cycle times staying within
a certain time frame.

None of us mistakenly predicted that cycle times would
fall after the new site launched.

None of us said that cycle times would start falling
earlier this year.

None of us mistakenly predicted that cycle times would
top out at 150-160.

None of us told members that we set aside funds to
keep cycle times below 90 days.

Gee, I have to wonder who was the source of all of
that misinformation.

Wait, the name is on the tip of my tongue. It's coming
to me............






Oh yeah, it was Kim Inman, the self-appointed visionary
who should have his finger on the pulse of his own
business.

But important things like whether an income stream is
monthly or weekly(and how much it is) keep slipping his
mind. There aren't that many income streams(if any) at
the moment, so it's hard to believe the man in charge
doesn't have the faculties to accurately recall info that
he knows is extremely important to his members.

Has the man ever heard of a note pad? He could jot
these things down before the conference calls since
the same things come up all the time.

Debating here is just fine.

But you have enough to handle in your own YMForums.
By the end of the month cycle times will be pushing
250 and more people will have their hopes, dreams,
and lives crushed by Kim Inman's "vision".

[Salsa]

It's shocking the amount of misinformation that is displayed in this one thread.What misinformation? Be specific.
When I said YM will succeed because they want it to, I have a reason for that.What reason? Please tell us.
I would love to have an intellegent debate with any one of you. If you want my email addy, PM me.If you have something to contribute to an intelligent debate, why not offer it here? So far, you have offered nothing but your wishes, hopes and anger. However, simply wishing and hoping for something to be true won't make it true, and anger is never convincing. And by the way, you misspelled intelligent. (I usually pay little mind to a poster's spelling, but in this context, with that word, I thought it was appropriate to point it out.)

I do agree with you that perseverance is often an important ingredient of success. But it's also important to recognize when you are riding a dead horse--and to get off of it if you want to go on. Dead horses are very heavy to carry, and they get ever more messy with each passing day.

I wish you well,
Salsa

[surfer]

And by the way, you misspelled intelligent. (I usually pay little mind to a poster's spelling, but in this context, with that word, I thought it was appropriate to point it out.)

Alan should be okay with that as he made fun
of me when I spelled hole wrong. My tears
are almost dry now. lol

But please do tell us Alan. How do you expect
Kim to run a business that will expand revenue
by nearly 100% every quarter for generations
to come?

And yes, specific misinformation and other things
we "made up" would be appreciated.

[200_K_already]

hopes and anger.

Who is angry? If I put a couple of these lol :D

does that show Im not angry?

The reason I dont have a debate here on points, is because whenever I come here, there are at least a dozen or more bogus points and I dont have the time to handle them all.

Make one reasonable point and I'll debate it with you. Then make another.

The major difficulty I find in here, is that you are all set in concrete with your thinking and debate with you could be futile. You say I come here and insult you! Big deal. Dont dish it out if you cant handle it coming back to you.

Every thread about YM is full of insults to Kim, the business and the members. Eveytime you make an inaccurate remark about YM, you insult the inteligence of those who see the business to be working. You base everything on cycletimes. That is just so narrow minded. Yes they times have gone up - so what? Does that mean they cannot ever come down again? You say yes, but I say no.

Is that a debate?

Why do I come here?

I'll tell you why. I'm interested in people. I hate to see folk getting wrong information, including you guy's.

[200_K_already]

Salsa

When I said YM will succeed because they want it to, I have a reason for that.

Most online businesses that vanish, do so because when they begin to have difficulties, they just throw the towel in and run away.

Learn to read.

[Arzel]

Alan,

I am still waiting for a response to my perfectly debatable questions.

You quoted earlier that Kim does not get 11% of the EPC sales off the top (part of the 25%) but that it goes to the company. You stated this as proof that we provide miss-information. However Jim and Berry have both stated that Kim does get 11% right off the top and that it is his to do whaterver he pleases. To paraphrase "He could stick that money right in his pocket if he would like".

So do you still state that Kim does not recieve 11% of EPC sales right off the top?

[200_K_already]

Alan,

I am still waiting for a response to my perfectly debatable questions.

You quoted earlier that Kim does not get 11% of the EPC sales off the top (part of the 25%) but that it goes to the company. You stated this as proof that we provide miss-information. However Jim and Berry have both stated that Kim does get 11% right off the top and that it is his to do whaterver he pleases. To paraphrase "He could stick that money right in his pocket if he would like".

So do you still state that Kim does not recieve 11% of EPC sales right off the top?

Was that the mis-information I cited? I dont remember being so specific but I forgive you for mis-quoting me!

Now,
If you knew anything about how companies are run then you wouldn't make statements like that.

How many CEO's of any company, take a percentage of the turnover as a salary?

Kim has 11% at his disposal - yes. Does he take it all as a wage - no.

Debate over.

That was easy - anything else?

[Salsa]

Salsa
When I said YM will succeed because they want it to, I have a reason for that.

Most online businesses that vanish, do so because when they begin to have difficulties, they just throw the towel in and run away.Learn to read.Alan,

Of course, I addressed this "reason" of yours at some length in my post--speaking of insubstantial hopes and wishes and riding dead horses....

Heck, in your "reason," you don't even mention YMMSS, only other businesses. What reasons do you have that YMMSS has any hope for success?

When you speak of wanting an intelligent debate and then post as you have, do you realize that you are not insulting anyone but yourself and YMMSS?

I wish you well,
Salsa

[Arzel]

Was that the mis-information I cited? I dont remember being so specific but I forgive you for mis-quoting me!

Now,
If you knew anything about how companies are run then you wouldn't make statements like that.

How many CEO's of any company, take a percentage of the turnover as a salary?

Kim has 11% at his disposal - yes. Does he take it all as a wage - no.

Debate over.

That was easy - anything else?

Quote from you earlier in this thread.

Furthermore, Kim does not get paid 11% of all purchases. Whoever told you that has their wires crossed.

11% is overheads and 11% is COMPANY profit including monies for expansion into other areas.

The info on here is usually inaccurate and what isn't, is out of date.

2ka

Quote from May 18th (I don't have the exact date right in front of me) conference all.

1:13:45

Caller, “Ok, now which” [confusing - caller mentions 25% of the commissions]”

Jim, “25% of every dollar that is purchased, you know, the EPC purchase is..is ah..goes to the company YMMSS. Out of that 25%, 3% is paid to the referring member on the purchase of EPCs, you have 22% left. Out of that 22% half of is taken to run the company, to pay the staff, pay the servers, whatever they’re doing, whatever they got to pay. The other 11%, Kim on his own decision has set aside to create outside sources of income.”

Caller, “Well if it’s coming from there, well how can you say it’s coming out of his pocket? If it’s coming out of the commission’s 25% [?]” Jim interrupts.

Jim, “That’s Kim’s profit, that’s his money.” Several people talking.

Caller, “What do you mean he earned it? That’s the companies money.” Background voice “Oh, Jeash.”

Berry, “Anyway you want to cut up, slice and dice it, or chop it up”

Jim interrupts, “YMMSS money is Kim” Quick stop.

Jim, “Kim Inman is the CEO over all [mumbling, something about ‘pull all the ship up’ ?]” not clear “right”

Berry, “25% goes to him, to the company. He takes 11% of that, that he could just as easily put in his pocket and say ‘Thank you very much’, and puts it into these bigger outside deals to create money coming back for our benefit. He don’t have to do that, I mean...” Jim interrupts.


I don't think I mis quoted you, so perhaps you should do a little retraction.

[200_K_already]

Company profits and money at the CEO's disposal is one in the same, now your splitting hairs.

If you really want a debate, then dont split hairs.

Salsa, I will not address you again. If you are unable to act like an adult then you have no place here.

You all actually, can find nothing wrong in the content of what I've said, so you split hairs remark on silly things.

Also, Jim and Barry are NOT YM exec's nor do they speak on behalf of YM Admin.

Alan

[concerned]

Why don't you tell us why the outside business ventures are so private. Don't you think the investors deserve to know about them?

[surfer]

The major difficulty I find in here, is that you are all set in concrete with your thinking and debate with you could be futile. You say I come here and insult you! Big deal. Dont dish it out if you cant handle it coming back to you.

And you're thinking is not set in concrete?? :rolleyes:

Every thread about YM is full of insults to Kim, the business and the members. Eveytime you make an inaccurate remark about YM, you insult the inteligence of those who see the business to be working. You base everything on cycletimes. That is just so narrow minded. Yes they times have gone up - so what? Does that mean they cannot ever come down again? You say yes, but I say no.

The whole YMMSS business is based on cycle times.
People don't cycle on time, people don't get paid
on time.

YMMSS is now 144 days, almost 5 months, late in
paying its members. Yeah, people complaining about
not being paid in a timely fashion is narrow minded. :crazy:

"So what?" you say. We've already seen a
number of people that were told over the
phone by Kim all those lies about maintaining
cycle times within 60-90 days. Some of
these members go back to 2003.

Kim Inman has lied numerous times Alan.
That's what.

Not once have I seen Kim step up and accept
responsibility for things not working right. It's
always someone else's fault. I guess the real
CEO of YMMSS is named Murphy.

As stated earlier, Kim Inman has been spewing
more misinformation for 3 years than anyone
on this site ever has.

It all started with his 60-90 day guarantee.
Any biz opp marketer with the experience that
Kim supposedly had in MLM would have known
right away you can't legally make guarantees
like that. Where was his crack legal staff on
that??

But he had to have some gimmick to reel
people in, so he made a guarantee that he
could never keep.

Worked well for 2 1/2 years. Then math
finally caught up to the ponzi.

It's obvious you're not interested in any
debate. You have nothing concrete to
debate your views with.

But here's an easy one for you anyway, Alan.

My "one reasonable point" for you to answer.

Simply prove to me that it is mathematically
possible to double every YMMSS members
income every 60-90 days for just 10 years.

Or even easier, I only want a 25% raise
every 60-90 days for the next 20 years.
Inflation, you know. :rolleyes: :eek:

I'll help you start off with your calculator.
I'm going to buy 1 $320 each day for 90
days so I can "beat the cycle time".

In my first cycle, I will pull out my seed
money and then every 90 days I will
leave 25% of my positions on repurchase
until notified.

This should be a piece of cake since
YMMSS is "designed" to cycle in 60-90
days and it is "designed" to last for
generations.

[200_K_already]

Actually my thinking is not set in concrete; I dont keep banging on about 90 days.



Alan

[surfer]

Oh, I'm sorry Alan. I didn't realize that Kim Inman
had changed the design of the program. Is he no
longer stating that it's "designed" to work in a 60-90
day cycle time?

I can only base my calculations on what the inventor
of YMMSS tells me to expect.

Please let me know what the new "designed" time
frame is so I can adjust my business plan accordingly.

Gee, I thought I had thrown you an easy question.

[200_K_already]

Sarcasm is a very low from of wit, and in any case, Im better at it than you.

Of course it's you that quotes Yoda, as if he was real.

Who would leave money in a business for 10 years - get real?

My intentions are to make YM my principal income. That doesn't mean leaving money in for 10 years until I become a mulit-millionaire. That means when I reach a certain income level that will maintain my sevaral homes, cars, boats, fur coats for the wife etc, I will live off YM income only.

Seriously, my intentions and most of the folk I know well in the biz, intend do a lot of good with their money. Please stop insulting Kim and the affiliates of YM. Amazing amounts of money have gone to help people within YM already through the benevolence fund. Also, at Christmas we raised money for a childrens shelter in Oklahoma in memory of a member who died.

If you guy's could see the good that goes on instead of focusing on your YM theories, maybe you would change your tune a little.

Go ahead and question the business plan all you like, but dont use words like SCAM, when it's not true, or CON-MAN, when it's not true either.

You also called Kim a liar. That is not true either. He may have been wrong, and he has said that, he may have trusted others too much, but he is NOT a liar.

I would think that if you are all so sure about the things you say, why not show yourself. It's easy to hide within a forum isn't it. Safe and secure, no chance of any court catching up with you.

Alan

[concerned]

It's easy to hide within a forum isn't it. Safe and secure, no chance of any court catching up with you.


Funny how you say this yet you are using a proxy server to hide your identity also.

[surfer]

Sarcasm is a very low from of wit, and in any case, Im better at it than you.
Good to know you're better at a lower form of
wit than me. :D
Of course it's you that quotes Yoda, as if he was real.
I see a better chance of meeting Yoda than
Kim's business working for generations.
Who would leave money in a business for 10 years - get real?
That comment makes no sense whatsoever.
My intentions are to make YM my principal income. That doesn't mean leaving money in for 10 years until I become a mulit-millionaire. That means when I reach a certain income level that will maintain my sevaral homes, cars, boats, fur coats for the wife etc, I will live off YM income only.
That's exactly the scenario I listed above. :head:
75% set to recurring income and 25% set to
repurchase each cycle giving myself a 25%
raise each quarter to do charitable things
and take care of my loved ones.
Seriously, my intentions and most of the folk I know well in the biz, intend do a lot of good with their money. Please stop insulting Kim and the affiliates of YM. Amazing amounts of money have gone to help people within YM already through the benevolence fund. Also, at Christmas we raised money for a childrens shelter in Oklahoma in memory of a member who died.
Like I just stated above, 75% recurring, 25%
repurchase to do wonderful things for as
many people as possible. Hell, in my scenario
I only popped in about as much as MartialArtist
and quite a few others.
If you guy's could see the good that goes on instead of focusing on your YM theories, maybe you would change your tune a little.
They shouldn't be YM theories. The numbers
we shoot are what Kim Inman is telling people
that he will do for them. It's already been
proven that he can't, yet he keeps
sticking to that same lie about the business
being designed to work in a 60-90 day cycle

If he told the truth, he would tell people he
has absolutely no control over the cycle
times because of the doubler comp plan.

In my scenario above, I would earn close to
$500K by my 3rd full year if YMMSS is running
as it's "designed" to run. Alan, I'm not the one
stating cycle times will be 60-90 days. Kim is.
Our math and "theories" simply prove how
unrealistic it is.

Sure, we've seen some good from YMMSS and
its members. But how many people on your
own forums took Kim Inman at his word only to
have him not do what he said he would do?
Go ahead and question the business plan all you like, but dont use words like SCAM, when it's not true, or CON-MAN, when it's not true either.
We call a spade a spade. Many people are
being hurt by Kim Inman and YMMSS.
You also called Kim a liar. That is not true either. He may have been wrong, and he has said that, he may have trusted others too much, but he is NOT a liar.
Funny how you excuse Kim for trusting others,
but in the same breath you'll blame YMMSS
members for investing more than they should
have because they trusted Kim Inman.
I would think that if you are all so sure about the things you say, why not show yourself. It's easy to hide within a forum isn't it. Safe and secure, no chance of any court catching up with you.
Being that you're from the UK, I can forgive
your ignorance about U.S. law. This site is
based in the U.S. and if YMMSS wants to
challenge it, our IP addresses can be
subpoenaed.

Again, Alan, I'm not hiding in Belize like a
certain ponzi owner.

I didn't make guarantees to people that I
could not deliver on.

I didn't tell people I was going to put money
in to keep cycle times in their "designed"
time frame.

I don't know what you call it in the UK when
you promise somebody you will do something
and don't do it. In my area, we call it lying.

[Salsa]

Salsa, I will not address you again. If you are unable to act like an adult then you have no place here.I think that I can rightly take that as a forfeit of any debate. Thanks for the win! I don't blame you, though. I wouldn't want to debate against me on YMMSS, either. And I confess that I knew in advance that you had no reason to believe that YMMSS could succeed. What you have is faith that it will succeed. Many people regard faith as a good thing, however, what you need to ask yourself is whether YMMSS is a religion or a business. If your answer is business, you need to accept that faith has no place in business.

I also understand that right now you don't like me very much, however, know that we at Matrix Watch are not your enemies--not as long as you don't try to take more out of YMMSS than you put into it. On the day that you understand how YMMSS has taken advantage of you, we are here for you. We won't go into the whole "we told you so" bit, but just help you find justice as we would for any other YMMSS victim.

I wish you well,
Salsa

[Arzel]

Also, Jim and Barry are NOT YM exec's nor do they speak on behalf of YM Admin.

Alan

Perhaps Kim should get someone else to do the conference opportunity calls.

Regardless of their actual level of involvement, their actions give the impression of speaking on behalf of YM administration, and belive me, anyone that joins because of what they say only to find out that what they say is not supported by YMMSS....well let's just say the legal implications would be quite significant.

[MatrixWatch]

The reason I dont have a debate here on points, is because whenever I come here, there are at least a dozen or more bogus points and I dont have the time to handle them all.

Make one reasonable point and I'll debate it with you.

This is a good point, although I would note that even with the flurry of counter arguments abounding, you still have yet to make one substantial argument.

So, I'll throw it right back at you. Start up some more threads addressing single, microscopic points, and we'll talk through them with you. Some people come here and start a thread like, "MatrixWatch is wrong about everything", and before long we are debating just that--everything. Thus, if you have a grievance about a specific claim, then start a new thread, post a link to the other post where you saw the statement made orginally, and we'll all talk through that individual issue.

Our mods are really good with keeping things on track, if that is a concern that you have. We also have a function where you can report a post that you deem to be outside the forum rules (i.e. insulting, disrespectful, etc.), and we'll get right on it. We respect everyone's opinion here, and as long as a member adheres to the forum rules, they are welcome.

I'll forewarn you though, the members here are intelligent and clear-minded about their conclusions. So, if you make a claim, then make sure you back it up with good facts. We expect the same level of scrutiny from you regarding our claims. In the end, an open forum focused on substantial dialogue will get to the bottom of the issue before long. On that note, I really don't understand why you are claiming that we are hiding the truth, but then again, you are more than welcome to start a thread about that too. :)

I'd recommend that you start some very focused threads soon though. Your credibility is slipping by the hour. :rolleyes: :cool:

[Otherguy]

Please Alan can you either

(a) Provide a little bit of mathematical/statistical explanation of why YMMSS will succeed in the future. Note that past performance is not a guarantee of future results, I'd like to see your estimate of how the numbers will work in the future. I'm betting you're a smart guy and wouldn't have put so much of your reputation, belief and money into YMMSS without doing your own analysis of the numbers. I'd love to see that analysis.

(b) Provide us with some kind of evidence procedure and deadline that would make you reconsider your position on YMMSS.
As an example, if the CT fell below 200 days before Dec 31 2005, I would reconsider my opinion of YMMSS. At what point would you rethink YMMSS?

If you'd like to debate either of these issues privately over email, please PM me.





The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw

[Casandra]

How many CEO's of any company, take a percentage of the turnover as a salary?
If they don't have a set salary, where do the hundreds of thousands $$$ made by many CEO's of big companies come from if not from the company profits?

In USA there's a growing CEO-worker wage gap. On average the CEOs make 326 times the pay of factory workers. That money comes from both salary and bonuses. Salary alone can be in the millions. I believe their salary is set to be a percentage of expected income for the company. Perhaps I'm wrong and it's arbitrarily set to some random number.

[juanita40222]

I especially hope that "Mr. 200K already" decides to look at this site at least one more time. I understand how difficult it must be for him to have the YMMSS scam explained to him in a manner that is clear and concise from the other posters here. YMMSS was to be a business that anyone could make money in. Business is business. Mr. 200K you can have "faith" in God and perhaps a few people in your life, but to have faith in YMMSS is completely bizarre. I checked the forums this a.m. Friday, 6/10/05 the cycle time was at 228. Monday, 6/13/05 it was at 231. Now, it does not take a mathmetician to see that cycle time is increases day for day. When do you think you are going to make that next 200K? Never, that's when. I become ill when I see folks investing their life's savings in this. They will reap no benefit. None. YMMSS is not a business, it is a cult. Don't even attempt to convince anyone otherwise. One of the posts to the forum this a.m. was from some folks who were so excited about the 3rd year anniversary of YMMSS that they had a picnic, saying that they discussed YMMSS and the Bible. Like I said you can have faith, but blind faith is dangerous. Open your eyes and see what YMMSS is taking from those who want to believe so badly. I am so glad that you made your money early on. I was in YMMSS for nearly a year and saw not one penny in return. If Kim's plan was truly feasible, don't you think that every money man in the world would be lining up to join? Come on, open your eyes.

[200_K_already]

Surfer, you quoted me above and some of the quote was not me - please rectify. Funny how you excuse Kim for trusting others,
but in the same breath you'll blame YMMSS
members for investing more than they should
have because they trusted Kim Inman.


To Tte others who have posted here; this is exactly why I will not debate with you here. You make anhonest post and it get's jumped on by all the little devils trying to prove there point. Most of the points make no sense actually and deserve no debate.

When this forum moves away from slander and name calling then it will be taken more seriously. Almost every anti type post regarding YM has included personal slurs and attacks from obviously bitter and twisted people.

You throw your rattle out of the pram because things have not worked out perfectly for you.

I wont debate with you until you clean up your act.


Alan

[200_K_already]

Funny how you say this yet you are using a proxy server to hide your identity also.

Why were you looking?

Nosey.

Alan

[surfer]

Surfer, you quoted me above and some of the quote was not me - please rectify.


To Tte others who have posted here; this is exactly why I will not debate with you here. You make anhonest post and it get's jumped on by all the little devils trying to prove there point. Most of the points make no sense actually and deserve no debate.

When this forum moves away from slander and name calling then it will be taken more seriously. Almost every anti type post regarding YM has included personal slurs and attacks from obviously bitter and twisted people.

You throw your rattle out of the pram because things have not worked out perfectly for you.

I wont debate with you until you clean up your act.


Alan

Rectified.

So a typo is a good reason not to debate.

Okay Alan.

Yet you continue to speak in genaralities and
address nothing.

What specific points make no sense to
you?

Why not address the points that do make sense?

My "theory" still hasn't been addressed. You
don't think there are members that will do
something similar to what I've laid out?

We're open to debate, but apparently you're
not.

[200_K_already]

I understand how difficult it must be for him to have the YMMSS scam explained to him in a manner that is clear and concise from the other posters here.

Juanita, that has got to be a joke! Clear and concise.

Clear

Your facts are flawed - almost everytime. Even from those who claim to be members.

One instance is those selling EPC's on auction sites, quoted by Drzod I think!

Members may be selling advertising space, but not their positions. Some members have too many epc's to use, so they sell them if they want to. I chose to give some away, but that is their prerogative.


Concise

Points made in here are rarely concise.



Also, as I said before, dont call it a scam.

Can you Juanita, substantiate that claim?

(in less then 200 words please - I do have a life)

Alan

[200_K_already]

Surfer, read my post again

When this forum moves away from slander and name calling then it will be taken more seriously. Almost every anti type post regarding YM has included personal slurs and attacks from obviously bitter and twisted people.
Thats why I wont debate.

[concerned]

Why were you looking?

Nosey.

Alan

Because you made the allegation against us, so I wanted to see if you practiced what you preached. You obviously don't.

[concerned]

When this forum moves away from slander and name calling then it will be taken more seriously. Almost every anti type post regarding YM has included personal slurs and attacks from obviously bitter and twisted people.

Thats why I wont debate.


That is just the easy way of not losing a debate. What are you affraid of. Every time someone challenges you, so run away. You must not have anything with substance to say. I wish you did. I have been waiting for someone to prove this forum wrong. I guess it will never happen.

[200_K_already]

Because you made the allegation against us, so I wanted to see if you practiced what you preached. You obviously don't.


Actually, I am not hiding from you. I use a proxy because of my online financial dealings - for protection.

If you PMme I'll send you my home address if you like - I wouldn't post that publicly of course. But dont be silly, Im not hiding from you.

Alan

[Arzel]

Ok Alan,

Here is a clear and concise debate topic.

I propose that YMMSS is a Ponzi scheme. My reason for this declaration.

-The vast majority of funds used to pay positions is from other YMMSS members (currently in excess of 90%).

-It has been stated by YMMSS that 75% of EPC purchases go directly into the commissions payable account.

-Cycle times have increased because purchases of new EPC's are no longer exceeding amounts to be paid on a daily basis.

-One Solution to cycle time woes that has been stated by YMMSS members and Admin members is to purchases more EPC's.

-EPC purchases result in a position which double in value after a period of time.

-Member purchase of EPC's for positions within the ladder (or matrix or cycle or whatever you want to call it) is the primary driving forces for joing YMMSS.

Feel free to debate the declaration that YMMSS is a Ponzi with your own arguements either disproving what I have stated, or providing alternative proof that YMMSS is not a Ponzi.

Since none of this will be deleted it should be an interesting debate.

[concerned]

Since none of this will be deleted it should be an interesting debate.

This won't be an interesting debate. 200_K_already will just say that he doesn't want to debate you because you shouln'd use the word ponzi. He is affraid to debate us, probably because he knows he will lose. I hope he proves me wrong and debates that statement because it would be fun, but do we really think he will do it? I don't.

[200_K_already]

-The vast majority of funds used to pay positions is from other YMMSS members (currently in excess of 90%).
And I dont agree with your definition by the way

My estimate is 62% and decreasing. (and that is a conservative estimate by the way)

A ponzi is - my money pays you, someone else pays me and so on.

YM, like any business is an income and expenditure business. So there is an element in the model where income from EPC purchases pays commissions. That does not make it a ponzi.


I know someone who is a Staff Nurse in an old peoples home. The old folks are paying around £500 ($880) per week to stay there. The staff nurse gets paid from that income.

That is as basic an economical structure as you can get.

YM affiliates pay for advertising, that revenue is YM's to do with as they please - they are providing a service and a product.

That is why it is not a ponzi.

Alan

[Arzel]

And I dont agree with your definition by the way

My estimate is 62% and decreasing. (and that is a conservative estimate by the way)

A ponzi is - my money pays you, someone else pays me and so on.

YM, like any business is an income and expenditure business. So there is an element in the model where income from EPC purchases pays commissions. That does not make it a ponzi.


I know someone who is a Staff Nurse in an old peoples home. The old folks are paying around £500 ($880) per week to stay there. The staff nurse gets paid from that income.

That is as basic an economical structure as you can get.

YM affiliates pay for advertising, that revenue is YM's to do with as they please - they are providing a service and a product.

That is why it is not a ponzi.

Alan

62%? YMMSS has paid approximately $90 million in commissions according to YM statistics. At 62% that would equate to 38% coming from sources other than EPC sales, and be approxiamtely $34 million. The only documented sources of outside income are the resort in Belieze, the $300,000 outside investment in May, and the $35,000 to $75,000 coming in per week or month for the past year.

The resort in Belieze is at most $3 million (which I find dubious), but even that has been stated to not be making any current profit. The $300,000 has been documented to have been put in, as has at least $35,000 for the past 3 months or so. But I will give $75,000 a month for a year, plus the $300,000. That equates to $1.2 million, or approximately 1.33% of the $90 million paid in commissions. I only say greater than 90% because there is might be something I am missing, but it is simply not feasible to be as high as you claim. The current rate may be that high because EPC sales are way down, but over the entire history, it is not even close to 62%.

As for the rest of your arguement perhaps you wish to restate your debate into something a little more factual.

[concerned]

My estimate is 62% and decreasing. (and that is a conservative estimate by the way)

What is this based on? Can you tell us where the other 38% comes from? 'm sure you can't because Kim won't even say where the source of that money comes from.

[drzod]

Alan, can't you just agree to disagree and move on.

You are tying up valuable time members on this site could use to present their opinions to members of YMMSS that happen upon this site via Yahoo, etc. I believe that no matter how right you think you are that you can never force someone to see it your way. Members here believe YMMSS is a ponzi and you do not.

Let other YMMSS members read the threads on this site and make up their own minds. If you are so sure that you are right, why don't you encourage members on ymforums.com to review the comments here? Hiding them from the fact that an alternate view of YMMSS exists isn't helping to prove your case.

[200_K_already]

Arzel said

62%? YMMSS has paid approximately $90 million in commissions according to YM statistics. At 62% that would equate to 38% coming from sources other than EPC sales, and be approxiamtely $34 million.


Arzel READ things properly.


I said

My estimate is 62% and decreasing.

I never said it had always been that way! You typically just added to what I said with pure conjecture. Which is at epidemic level in this forum.

drzod, why dont you just leave this forum and allow some folk who really know what is going on have their say for a change. You add nothing to this or any other forum except your warped sense of reality.


Arzel asked me a reasonable question, I try to answer him and what do you have? More interference from other users before you can even establish a rapport.

This opinions in this forum are flawed because they are mostly based on supposition and 'gleaned' information. The forum's other main fault is it's aggressive personality. You simply WILL NOT HAVE ANY OPINION OTHER THAN NEGATIVE. If I came onhere saying that the biz was rubbish and I wanted out, you would all be my buddies by now, all sharing 'online' stories and swapping recipes for cheeseburger relish. But no, because I have a positive outlook of YMMSS, I get jumped on, with atleast 6 people putting the boot in.

How sad. Sad that there is no balance whatsoever in here.

Is that honest?

By they way, Im Alan. If your ever in Glasgow, let me know! Maybe we can meet for lunch - I'll pay.

Anyway, back to the money machine. Ching ching.

Alan

[Otherguy]

Hi Alan, you seem to have missed my earlier post so I'll repeat it here for you.

All I'm doing is trying to understand some of your reasoning, to find out what facts you believe we are missing and/or ignoring.

Please Alan can you either

(a) Provide a little bit of mathematical/statistical explanation of why YMMSS will succeed in the future. Note that past performance is not a guarantee of future results, I'd like to see your estimate of how the numbers will work in the future. I'm betting you're a smart guy and wouldn't have put so much of your reputation, belief and money into YMMSS without doing your own analysis of the numbers. I'd love to see that analysis.

(b) Provide us with some kind of evidence procedure and deadline that would make you reconsider your position on YMMSS.
As an example, if the CT fell below 200 days before Dec 31 2005, I would reconsider my opinion of YMMSS. At what point would you rethink YMMSS?





The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
George Bernard Shaw

[surfer]

What is this based on? Can you tell us where the other 38% comes from? 'm sure you can't because Kim won't even say where the source of that money comes from.

concerned asked for clafification Alan. Seems
fair enough.

I think I know where you came up with that
figure, but will await your reply.

You're not being jumped on Alan. This is a
scam oriented forum. Other pro-YMMSS
members are more than welcome. You just
happen to be the only one who happens to
be here.

We have no problem with your opinion. We
simply disagree with it as you do with ours.

I would happily change my opinon if anyone
could illustrate the long term viability of the
pay structure. But the numbers don't work.

LOL, started typing a lot more but trying to
keep this dialogue somewhat on topic.

[Arzel]

Arzel said



Arzel READ things properly.


I said



I never said it had always been that way! You typically just added to what I said with pure conjecture. Which is at epidemic level in this forum.

drzod, why dont you just leave this forum and allow some folk who really know what is going on have their say for a change. You add nothing to this or any other forum except your warped sense of reality.


Arzel asked me a reasonable question, I try to answer him and what do you have? More interference from other users before you can even establish a rapport.

This opinions in this forum are flawed because they are mostly based on supposition and 'gleaned' information. The forum's other main fault is it's aggressive personality. You simply WILL NOT HAVE ANY OPINION OTHER THAN NEGATIVE. If I came onhere saying that the biz was rubbish and I wanted out, you would all be my buddies by now, all sharing 'online' stories and swapping recipes for cheeseburger relish. But no, because I have a positive outlook of YMMSS, I get jumped on, with atleast 6 people putting the boot in.

How sad. Sad that there is no balance whatsoever in here.

Is that honest?

By they way, Im Alan. If your ever in Glasgow, let me know! Maybe we can meet for lunch - I'll pay.

Anyway, back to the money machine. Ching ching.

Alan

The manner in which you responded to my conjecture that in excess of 90% of commissions paid have been from existing YM members led me to believe that your counter statement of 62% was based off similar underlying principles. If you are going to say that my analysis is incorrect please clarrify what is incorrect without making blanket statements.

However this does not change the fact of my claim that of ALL commissions paid, in excess of 90% (most likely closer to 97%) have come from exisiting YMMSS member purchases of EPC's, and this is the primary basis for the statement that YMMSS is a Ponzi structure.

For YMMSS to decrease this to 62% approximately $50 million in outside revenue would have to be put into the system.

As far as my "negative" point of view, you must understand that it is MY belief that the vast majority of people are involved in ponzi without realizing it. I don't even have the complete conviction that Kim is a bad person. He may have full well thought that by creating this initial ponzi structure he could create a large enough advertising group in which he really would have been able to attract some large advertisers, and when that happened the ponzi structure could be absorbed by the more legitimate nature of advertising.

However, as with the vast majority of these schemes, a certain percentage of people understood the nature of the model and took advantage of it (eg buying large numbers of $320 positions with the sole intention of quickly cashing out). I still believe the underlying model is flawed, but if it had not been for this group of people YMMSS would probably be functioning quite well for quite some time. But the math would catch up eventually. You simply cannot double the value of those EPC's indefinately.

I was in Ireland last summer, but if I get a chance I am going to visit Scotland in the near future.

[drzod]

Alan you wrote:

drzod, why don’t you just leave this forum and allow some folk who really know what is going on have their say for a change. You add nothing to this or any other forum except your warped sense of reality.

Come on. You are debating with members of this forum but you are not listening to what they are saying. In your rambling, all you have done is entertain the members here with your own warped reality. All members of this forum are asking you to do is to prove their math wrong. What is so warped about that? Facts and numbers do not lie. Once you manage to produce something – anything - that proves your point, you will be taken seriously. In the meantime, I'll keep pointing other YMMSS members to this site so they can see both sides of the coin.

Better go, my reality is warping again and I don't want to miss it!

[concerned]

drzod, why dont you just leave this forum and allow some folk who really know what is going on have their say for a change. You add nothing to this or any other forum except your warped sense of reality.



What gives you the right to make this request? If anyone is adding a warped sense of reality it is you. According to all your logic, I would conclude that you must think money grows on trees. You keep saying that we don't allow all opinions, but when you don't like someone else's opinions, you ask them to leave. If you pull another stunt like that with another member again, it will be you that will be leaving, and we won't be asking you to leave, we will just make it happen.

[Casandra]

The forum's other main fault is it's aggressive personality. You simply WILL NOT HAVE ANY OPINION OTHER THAN NEGATIVE. If I came onhere saying that the biz was rubbish and I wanted out, you would all be my buddies by now, all sharing 'online' stories and swapping recipes for cheeseburger relish. But no, because I have a positive outlook of YMMSS, I get jumped on, with atleast 6 people putting the boot in.

How sad. Sad that there is no balance whatsoever in here.

Is that honest?
Sounds exactly like the anti-YMforum. No balance on the YMforum whatsoever. Negative not allowed, lots of recipe swapping and sharing online stories, only difference is the aggressive personality there is directed toward anyone saying anything negative about YM. Do you really come to the anti-forum and expect something different?

The difference I see is those who post here don't get their posts deleted, archived, locked, buried, censored or TOS'd. Your posts stay here where anyone can read them.....careful what you say!

[Casandra]

If you pull another stunt like that with another member again, it will be you that will be leaving, and we won't be asking you to leave, we will just make it happen.hmmm....maybe then this forum will be even more like the exact opposite of the YMforum. They woulda done that a long time ago ;)

[200_K_already]

Arzel

For YMMSS to decrease this to 62% approximately $50 million in outside revenue would have to be put into the system.

Here again, you are assuming too much. I am talking about the CURRENT financial position as I see it. MY figures may be + or - by a couple of percent but they are closer than yours.

Obviously I cannot discuss specifics but I can assure you of this, I didn't invent those figures out of an over eager imagination.

Now everyone is firing questions at me. Some of them are thee most loaded questions I have ever read! You are challenging me to answer and I find it disconcerting to have so many trains of thought all at once. :crazy:

Usually in a debate, both parties get a chance to ask and answer questions. Agreed?

I have answered Arzel.

May I now ask a question?

Without going into a mathematic involution, tell me honestly why YM's business model will not work?

Taking into consideration, EPC purchases, investement income, retail site revenue, auction site revenue, powershop revenue, telephone service revenue - just to begin with!

Not to mention the stuff thats in the pipeline.


Alan

[200_K_already]

Concerned wrote

If you pull another stunt like that with another member again, it will be you that will be leaving, and we won't be asking you to leave, we will just make it happen.

Sounding a bit rattled. I was replying to drzods request that I leave. I have as much right as any other user surely to say what I like.

we will just make it happen.

Will I get a horses head in my bed too? Who do you think you are, Don Corleone? lol Get over yourself. Lighten up.

But guess what, I dont actually care if you throw me out or ban me - cause I have nothing to lose in here. :p


So, do your worst and show everyone how to end a debate. Ban me.

Alan

[Arzel]

Arzel


Here again, you are assuming too much. I am talking about the CURRENT financial position as I see it. MY figures may be + or - by a couple of percent but they are closer than yours.

I love how YMMSS upper members and admin talk about YMMSS through their rose colored glasses as if everything is peachy. Maybe you should turn your pages around, because by the numbers you and other YM admin go by I think your book is upside down.



Obviously I cannot discuss specifics but I can assure you of this, I didn't invent those figures out of an over eager imagination.

I am confused. You can't discuss yours, pull them out of the air figures, which you claim to be more reliable than the actual figures obtained from YMMSS conference calls, and YMMSS published commissions paid? Why don't you just admit it. You have no idea what Kim is doing, no idea where the money is coming from, no idea where it is going, and do idea why it even works. And the only reason you are defending him is because you made a bunch of money early.

I am willing to bet that our estimates are better than even Kim's, because he obviously has no clue either. How can someone go from 60-90 CT to not more than 150 to I just don't know? All the while, people like us are saying it will hit X on Y date and we are within single digits of being correct?


Now everyone is firing questions at me. Some of them are thee most loaded questions I have ever read! You are challenging me to answer and I find it disconcerting to have so many trains of thought all at once. :crazy:

Usually in a debate, both parties get a chance to ask and answer questions. Agreed?

I have answered Arzel.

May I now ask a question?

Without going into a mathematic involution, tell me honestly why YM's business model will not work?

Taking into consideration, EPC purchases, investement income, retail site revenue, auction site revenue, powershop revenue, telephone service revenue - just to begin with!

Not to mention the stuff thats in the pipeline.


Alan

Well the basis for it not working is that it is a ponzi structure, and even with outside investment the amount to be paid out approaches infinity.

EPC purchases. Since each purchase requires 2.5 * the original purchase to balance out each purchase of EPC, it actually creates a long term debt to the system.

Investment Revenue. So far the investment revenue has not even come close to exceeding the ammount Kim took from EPC purchases for investment purposes, so there is no real proof that any outside investment has actually made anything, it could all be a front. This is not going to change for at least a year by Kim's own account, and since the servers took an extra 6 months I expect that 18 months to grow to 3 years if YMMSS is even still around in 18 months.

Retail Site Revenue. Yeah, you just pulled someone on, and you expect people to believe he is going to turn a nothing site into one producing millions of profit in no time? Most businesses lose money their first year, I don't see the retail site making anything.

Auction Site. You don't even have 5% of your own Membership involved, and you are talking about very small margins at that. YMMSS auction will not be able to compete with Ebay. Call me pessimistic if you want, I prefer realistic, but even if you did get huge numbers of membership, odds are they would be mostly YM members anyway and contribute to the deficit nature of the EPC purchases.

Telephone. Not a chance. The telephone market is in trouble as it is what chance do you think YM will be able to capture any significant revenue when some of the major players are going banktrupt?

The only real viable source of outside revenue is the resort in Belieze (which isn't producing anything). And the possibility of large retailers paying big bucks to advertise to the YMMSS safelist. I personally don't think that will work because the amount of advertising would have to exceed the amount of potential revenue from the advertising. It could work short term if you had a large number of advertisers throw a bunch of money into YM, but as soon as they see they are not getting a high enough return they would stop or pay much less.

The primary problem is math (I know you don't want to deal with it, but face it).

This is a limit function problem. The amount of money being paid out in EPC commissions goes toward infinity (because there are no income caps). The amount of money which could be ingested into the system from outside revenue is not infinate. As F(x) goes to infinity, no finite amount of money can stop the rise. You can slow it down, but it is inevitable.

Finally, I think you should check that pipe, because I think it is a sewer line.

[concerned]

I have as much right as any other user surely to say what I like.


You are right about this. Funny how this isn't the same at the YM forums.

[200_K_already]

Thats right, Concerned.


Arzel

it could all be a front.


I don't see the retail site making anything.

You dont half make some guesses,based on YOUR vague idea of YM.


Do you see the big picture if you peak through keyhole at the cinema? Your arguments are well structured and quite convincing even - but unfortunately where you fall down is that like many of the people on here, you have such a an ego thing going on, that you simply will not be told by anyone about anything.


You referred to me as on of the Upper Members of YMMSS.

That's a laugh.

You obviously dont know me then. I am no more 'up' than anyone else. That is one of the good things about not being in a Ponzi/Pyramid.


I live to serve!


I'll tell you what's weird!

I dont even dislike you guy's. You annoy me because you are pompous, blind, bitter, angry and pompous. (did I say pompous twice - woops)
But I find myself beginning to miss you when Im at work during the day.

You however, are under no obligation to like me - why should you?

To quote the song

Nobody likes me, everybody hates me,
Guess I'll go eat worms,

lol

I apologise for anything offensive I have written here and wish you all the very, very best for the future. I mean that by the way. At least we are just talking, and not trying to shoot each other.

If anyone wants to contact me direct, hughal@aol.com

(I reckon I'll get blasted for using aol now eh?)

If my email get's removed then PM me if you wish, or catch up with me on the YMForum. I'll look out for you.

Alan

[Otherguy]

Alan,

You asked to be shown mathematical reasons why YMMSS cannot work.

As a starter, I suggest you carefully read the page at

http://www.workathomenetwork.com/math-does-not-lie.htm

If you discover any discrepancies there, please let us know, we'd love to discuss them with you.

If the page mentioned doesn't suffice let me know and I'll do the math for you another way.

One way or another though it all comes down to this (both pro and anti-YMMSS agree here) : In order to sustain YMMSS Kim needs to bring in many, many millions of dollars from outside revenue sources.

I do not see any credible evidence that Kim has the ability to do so.

The sites he has put up so far cannot be expected to bring in any more than a tiny fraction of what is needed. I have seen no evidence that Kim has the capability to bring in the rest of the millions. IMHO I don't think anybody could without either (a) Seed money of hundreds of millions (b) A brand new 'killer' product such as Ebay once was.

The next standard YMMSS respsonse is 'we have a killer product - advertising to our members'. This will bring some money, but never enough. Members cannot be expected to spend more than a fraction of their YMMSS income on products being advertised to them through YMMSS, and so advertisers will never pay more than a fraction of this fraction.

Alan if you know of evidence (not promises) that Kim has the ability to generate many millions from legitimate revenue sources then please share it with us.

[200_K_already]

YOUR WORLD IS TOO SMALL

QUOTE=Arzel

I am confused. You can't discuss yours, pull them out of the air figures, which you claim to be more reliable than the actual figures obtained from YMMSS conference calls, and YMMSS published commissions paid? Why don't you just admit it. You have no idea what Kim is doing, no idea where the money is coming from, no idea where it is going, and do idea why it even works. And the only reason you are defending him is because you made a bunch of money early.




Pull out of the air fugures eh? You are so entrenched, you have no idea at all. Do you think because you can use a calculator that suddenly your a wiz with numbers? The figures I quoted are CURRENT. Get it into your skull and listen to someone other than your own self.

And the only reason you are defending him is because you made a bunch of money early.


Not true, again. Where do you get off making FALSE allegations. You are so adamant that it's a Ponzi you cannot reason properly. What a really stupid thing to say. You accuse me of pulling figure out of the air and then you go and make something up just to make your post a bit longer.


I am willing to bet that our estimates are better than even Kim's, because he obviously has no clue either. How can someone go from 60-90 CT to not more than 150 to I just don't know? All the while, people like us are saying it will hit X on Y date and we are within single digits of being correct?


You and your little crew within your little world have predicted YM to fold by the end of this year. I will personally pay all the running cost of this site for 2006 if that happens ok. Thats the best offer you've had all day I supect!



Well the basis for it not working is that it is a ponzi structure, and even with outside investment the amount to be paid out approaches infinity.

Again, knowledge is everything and you dont have any! (about YM anyway)



EPC purchases. Since each purchase requires 2.5 * the original purchase to balance out each purchase of EPC, it actually creates a long term debt to the system.


I refer to my last answer!


Investment Revenue. So far the investment revenue has not even come close to exceeding the ammount Kim took from EPC purchases for investment purposes, so there is no real proof that any outside investment has actually made anything, it could all be a front. This is not going to change for at least a year by Kim's own account, and since the servers took an extra 6 months I expect that 18 months to grow to 3 years if YMMSS is even still around in 18 months.

It could be / I expect /

More guess work based on bogus and/or out of date news.



Retail Site Revenue. Yeah, you just pulled someone on, and you expect people to believe he is going to turn a nothing site into one producing millions of profit in no time? Most businesses lose money their first year, I don't see the retail site making anything.


Wouldn't you love that? I bet your rubbing your hands at the thought of that failing! You need to get out more.


Auction Site. You don't even have 5% of your own Membership involved, and you are talking about very small margins at that. YMMSS auction will not be able to compete with Ebay. Call me pessimistic if you want, I prefer realistic, but even if you did get huge numbers of membership, odds are they would be mostly YM members anyway and contribute to the deficit nature of the EPC purchases.

You pessimistic.

Not every YM member is into auctions. Why should they be? 5% is not bad to start with. Also, the site is public too - so that will build up in time.


Telephone. Not a chance. The telephone market is in trouble as it is what chance do you think YM will be able to capture any significant revenue when some of the major players are going banktrupt?

No knowledge again Arzel - it's all about finding a product and a market!

The only real viable source of outside revenue is the resort in Belieze (which isn't producing anything).

Now your losing your credibility - who does the research in here! Sack them.

And the possibility of large retailers paying big bucks to advertise to the YMMSS safelist. I personally don't think that will work because the amount of advertising would have to exceed the amount of potential revenue from the advertising. It could work short term if you had a large number of advertisers throw a bunch of money into YM, but as soon as they see they are not getting a high enough return they would stop or pay much less.

You make big statements , when you know nothing. You ask me for details. Forget about it.

You dont know the Ad market obviously!

The primary problem is math (I know you don't want to deal with it, but face it)

The math is, money in - money out.

This is a limit function problem. The amount of money being paid out in EPC commissions goes toward infinity (because there are no income caps). The amount of money which could be ingested into the system from outside revenue is not infinate. As F(x) goes to infinity, no finite amount of money can stop the rise. You can slow it down, but it is inevitable.

As I've heard stated, what is the difference if one person makes $10M or 10 people make $1M 0r 100 people make $100,000 - its the same topline!

Infinite amounts of money willnever be required - just a lot of money. Thats why we are business. People will always take an income.

Finally, I think you should check that pipe, because I think it is a sewer line.

At least my sewage comes from the right place! Im surprised at that little attack by the way - did you stomp your feet when you wrote that!

[drzod]

Ok, Alan simple question. How much did you put into YMMSS and how much have you taken out? For you to be debating this long I truly hope you have either taken out more than you put in, or believe that you will take out more than you put in.

I'll go ahead and give you my data so that you know I am being honest (go ahead and have someone at YMMSS look it up if you do not believe me): I joined on 01/04/04 with $370. I have set my positions to repurchase EPC's until notified. I have cycled 4 times so my $370 is now $5920 (set to become $11,840 if I ever cycle again). I have never received a penny from YMMSS.

Even if I changed my income option to Reoccurring Income $320, I still do not believe I would ever receive a penny from YMMSS (or at this point want to). In fact, I bet I will never cycle. I currently have 19 positions that are supposed to cycle between 07/27/05 and 07/30/05 using the 06/15/05 cycle time of 235 days.

I am using this example with real data to help you see the ponzi nature of YMMSS. Since the magical 11/18/04 date, I have not come any closer to cycling - I have always been about 45 days away.

Since that date (11/18/04) the new site has been brought up, two new income options have been created to help fund the CPA, the auction site has been launched, the golf game has been created, and the $300 K in outside income has materialized.

Do you not find it odd that despite all these events that the cycle time keeps going up exponentially? Why would a member like myself believe that things are going to get better? I agree Kim is delivering on promises made, but even as he stated when we talked earlier this month, when it comes down to it all YMMSS members care about is cycle time. In this area he has failed miserably - this is why YMMSS is a ponzi.

[Arzel]

YOUR WORLD IS TOO SMALL

Pull out of the air fugures eh? You are so entrenched, you have no idea at all. Do you think because you can use a calculator that suddenly your a wiz with numbers? The figures I quoted are CURRENT. Get it into your skull and listen to someone other than your own self.

Well $90 million paid in commissions, with documented outside revenue sources of approximately $500,000 (another $300,000 is supposed to be going in this week, but I don't know if it did yet.) I have researched every aspect of YMMSS and Kim never fails to mention when outside revenue is put into the system, and even touts amounts as low as $35,000, so I would expect him to mention amounts near the $30+ million amount. Since he has not, one can only conclude that there has been none. Please exlpain where you come up with only 62% comming from EPC sales.



You and your little crew within your little world have predicted YM to fold by the end of this year. I will personally pay all the running cost of this site for 2006 if that happens ok. Thats the best offer you've had all day I supect!


Fold (collapse) are such subjective terms. For all practical purposes YMMSS is collapsing as we speak. The weight of the ponzi structure has already caused the system to fail, if it were not for Kim changing the 60-90 day guarentee to simply a goal, YMMSS would be banktrupt. Kim still has enough money from previous EPC sales to continue the little infusions that he has made and keep the appearance of a viable company for quite some time, so it could technically be around (in appearance) for quite some time.

To clarify though I predicted YMMSS would collapse (eg the structure would start to fail under it's own weight) in August of this year. Now, part of my prediction has already come true, and that is the exodus and member discontent, and this actually occured a little sooner than I expected.


Wouldn't you love that? I bet your rubbing your hands at the thought of that failing! You need to get out more.


My goal is to help people see YMMSS for what it is and save them from throwing money into a losing proposition, you seem to imply that I am sadistic, which is not very nice. :nono:



You dont know the Ad market obviously!


Well I do have a degree in marketing, and I can see by sales of EPC's on YMAuctions that no one in their right mind would pay $10 for an advertising credit if it were not for the ability to double your money. If this was not the case than auctioned EPC's which according to Jim, Barry, Kim and any other YM admin person you talk to, are sold to members at wholesale and can be sold for profit. Seems to me they are being sold to members at a premium and then dumped at fire sale prices. 2,500 EPC's being sold for $225! That is about a peny per EPC, and many of the auctions don't even have bids. Not to mention that many members use their EPC to make announcements, seems like a pretty expensive way to post a recipe or birthday announcement.



The math is, money in - money out.


As I've heard stated, what is the difference if one person makes $10M or 10 people make $1M 0r 100 people make $100,000 - its the same topline!

Infinite amounts of money willnever be required - just a lot of money. Thats why we are business. People will always take an income.


I also have a degree in statistics, I think I have a pretty good idea about math.


At least my sewage comes from the right place! Im surprised at that little attack by the way - did you stomp your feet when you wrote that!

A little bit of levity is nice don't you think? Besides I was not referring to you, only the pipeline that Kim is offering up.

[Deso]

Alan,
Im in Edinburgh and from your earlier invitation Id love to meet up and discuss the YMMSS system with you. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how you can argue against mathematical formulae but if, as I believe you are, adamant that the YMMSS organisation can sustain itself for an infinite lifetime, Id sure as hell love a photocopy of its business plan. Let me make it clear that Im not "against" or "for" anything you may have seen on these forums, Im just against people getting ripped off as I have had done in the past.
I approach things with an open mind and if you would permit me, I would love to hear your thoughts on why YMMSS will be around for a long time and possibly report back to the members here who are too far away to meet with you.
How does that sound? if you want to contact me direct my email is deso1972@blueyonder.co.uk
Anyway.. The ball is in your court Alan, I look forward to meeting with you.
Best Regards.

Connor (Deso)

[Deso]

I just saw this on another post, does it ring any bells?
What happens is that the matrix site cannot support itself, because the lines never get shorter. That leaves a large liability for the owners. To try to pay for that liability they try to make other revenue. This can be many things, but in reality, it is basically doing another business function to support a failing business. That is the first thing they tell you to avoid in business school. You should NEVER start one business to support the failure of another.

This was about a completely different site but I can see comparisons.
Im not making any judgement but I cant see how YMMSS differs from the basic set up of this other site, with the "Outside Revenue Streams" of YMMSS (e.g YMGOLF, YM Auctions, Belize Resort) I have read so often about. If this advertising phenomena requires outside revenue streams then surely it cannot sustain itself?
Perhaps you could enlighten me Alan? BTW I am not being demeaning in anyway. I am simply asking direct questions which I propose to do when we meet in person.
Best wishes

Connor

[200_K_already]

I emailed you Connor.

Alan

[yeppers]

deso, it's been close to a year - did alan actually meet with you?

[drankoolaid]

Shame -- we missed out here -- oh well.


Alan Wrote Back In June 2005:

You and your little crew within your
little world have predicted YM to fold
by the end of this year. I will personally
pay all the running cost of this site for 2006
if that happens ok.

Thats the best offer you've had all day I supect!

I wish that Alan would have made his wager
'in the period of a year from his post.'

My thinking is we would win --

[yeppers]

but michael, ymmss DID fold by the end of 2005, even tho' it was not yet forbidden to mention 'the big y' at that time.

so, alan, you may see watchdog to make good on your offer now. lol lol

[ycchen]

agree with Yeppers. YM was "cursed" lollol and die, replaced by a sharing ponzi -- a typical routine by any big ponzi operator. :shake:

I don't think Alan has the gut to admit that he losed his bet ;)

[wonderwoman]

It is really hard to believe, but I do, that everything, almost has come to
fruition, that has been posted in here since early 2005---They will come!!!!!
Everyone who has experienced the YMMSS/STA will understand all of this--In
their own way, how could they not identify with the others over here? Unless
they are totally blinded by the "truth"--