Dreamer
June 19th, 2005, 10:09 AM
*** The Beginning ***
We all know that Kim came from MLM. Whats the difference between MLM and a Ponzi? Well, simply, MLM actually sells a product. I believe that there has to be a certain percentage of the moneys coming from sales rather than recruiting that makes it legal or not, but I'll simply ignore that fact for now.
So, Kim decides that he wants to be on the top of the ladder and create his own system. What he has created is pretty genius, but none the less illegial.
What is the ultimate problem of a ponzi? Like any business it will end, but when it ends there are too many people who never receive anything, who are called doners.
So, what did Kim think about for the 9 months?
1. A true MLM sells product. But, he doesnt want to be bothered with having an inventory, so he needed something he can pretend to be a product. There are many "free" things that can be sold. WEb space, financial advice, homework help, anything that somebody particularly excels at. He didnt want to be bohered with actually taking time for his customers, so he needed something that he can pretend to have some value. Classifieds space. Charge an outrageous amount to post a worthless ad, but the nice thing about this is he can solve his next problem.
2. The people at the bottom of the lists lose out. Well, if he can get businesses to advertise with him by the time his ponzi is colapsing (about now as I write this) to continue to pay off people, nobody will lose.
Ok, he "fixed" the ponzi if it works out for him. Now, he needs to fix his custoemrs.
3. Smarter people tend to jump in quick, let their money double a few times when the system is hot than drop out. So, kim figured more people will keep money in the system if he introduces reaccuring incomes to allow people to keep money in the system and play off their greed. Sure, I can let my money double 6 times (I assume most early birds in ponzi systems probably take out their money by the 4th time) but if I keep it in there a few more cycles I can earn much more money. So, kim figured out how to tap into the greed of his customers.
4. People tend to promote systems when they have money in it. However, some people tend to walk away with the loss when they realize they ve been scamed. If we can get people to come back every week otherwise they wont get paid, we can almost guarantee that they will promote the business for us until they cycle. so, lets make them read ads 30 minutes a week. And, if they dont we ll just take away their positions.
There are a few more elements that make this a well thought out scam, but it still does not make it legal.
*** Ignorance of members ***
If you can stomach any of estos notes, that everybody proudly tells people to read, you will get to a simple line, which I will not quote because I dont want to have to read thru it again, but it says "For all the money i make comes from you and all the money you make comes from me". Well, when I brought that line to the forums, oh that one line is wrong, it needs to be changed. Wait, this is the main selling document to get people to buy into the system. Estos shows himself how ignorant he hopes everybody is because the entire document is mere fluff, nothing more.
And, speaking of estos, a wonderful thread he started is to prove why the system is not a ponzi. Well, I do not need to write 3 pages of proof to show that grass is green, or the sky is blue. Who ultimately is he trying to prove that the system is not a scam? Well, if you have an alternate opinion of the system your post is quickly deleted. So, it would assume he is trying to prove this to members who are starting to see it for what it is. Again, he is basically saying to members that their opinions that they are forming about the system is wrong, so lets show them how stupid they are for thinking that.
I'll leave him alone for now. Now Viper. His usual responce is that people that entered the system are making more money than him, so that proves its not a ponzi. I'm not even sure thats an argument that ponzi people claim. We may say that only early birds benefit and most people lose, but never that somebody who starts after somebody else cannot receive as much. If person 1 only puts in $10, and person 2 puts in $20, by the time person 2 doubles, he earned more money.
Now these are people that should be in the know. But, what about members? Well, when ct is 230 days and they think that a purchase made today will cycle in 230 days, they simply do not know what the cycle time means. CT is how many days ago they are currently working on, now an expectation of how long it will take to cycle.
Than there is the argument that its not a ponzi because there is outside revenues coming in. Well, looking at the numbers shows the the money being funneled out of the system is much much more than the money being put back into the system. If fact, there is no paper trail to prove that there are any outside revenues. Kim has taken about 30million from the system in his own pockets...what is $300k here and there to suggest that there are outside revenues. But, there is no proof that there is anything except word of mouth. Kim could take out 10% of the payouts everyday for 2 weeks and clump it all together in one day to pretend like there is outside revenues. But, thats for another section.
There are many other examples, no offense to any of the members. My goal is not to call them ignorant or foolish. Most of the people posting on the forums seem geniuenly decent kind people. ymmss seems to have a blind faith following. Blind faith is good in religious beliefs, but kim is no religious figure.
*** CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS ***
Ymmss still remains a ponzi, despite people claiming that since there is an outside revenue source that its not a ponzi. However, reviewing the numbers shows that the money coming into the system is far less than the money taking out of the system.
The auction site has, within the month, been the place to pass off a few epcs.
ym golf - I'm not even sure about what that is
Beliz - kim even admitted that the resort will probably never turn a profit. Than why was it invested in?
Banners - They dont pay
Shopping (walmart, etc) - Is simply profit sharing
But, lets not talk about that. What about the $300,000? Compared to the $90,000,000 paid out, its nothing really. 1/3 of 1 percent. This 1/3 of 1% is what people are saying that it proves that ymmss is not a ponzi. However, $300,000 is a good chuck of change on its own. Small companies don't spend that much on a year in advertising. Medium to larger size businesses might spend that. But, on one campaign? A business that has an advertising budget of a million dollars might decide to do half on tv adds, 25% on printed adds (newspapers magazines), 10% on radio, and 10% other (bilboards, internet, other untried methods). So, that $300,000 might only represent a $3million advertising budget.
But, lets step away from theoriticals here and think about reality. June. What is coming up that a business would invest that much in advertising in June? Well, nothing. 4th of july coming up. But, its too late to advertise for that. Maybe some summery stuff...again, just is just the wrong month for that...a few months ago would have been better. Thanksgiving is coming up, but june is too early for that. June just isn't that great of a month to spend alot of money advertising.
So, wehre did that $300,000 come from? Only kim knows.
*** THE FUTURE ***
Who is Michael Hamilton? Some guy that has been part of ymmss since may 2003. He has a vested interest in ymmss since he is getting paid $320 every other day. The person kim hired to head the revenues seaking part of his business is somebody who has benefited from his business. Normally, in business, managers like to hire within. That is good. However, the next phase of that system is to attract retailers to advertise with them, whereas up until now they have been relaying on a ponzi to keep money flowing. Was that a good thing?
Well, take a failing business. If the owner wants to hire a financial guru to go over the books, help cut costs and suggest better ways to do things, would it be more beneficial to hire lower management, or to hire fresh blood, somebody who knows nothing about the business to get some virgin ideas from a professional? Lower management might just suggest things that were tried unsuccessful. An outsider might bring a new depth into the books fixing what the problems were.
Well, what is an MBA doing on a money making site online anyways? Must not be very good at his chosen profession, or is so crooked that he doesnt care how he makes his money so long as he makes it. But, how do we even know what his credentials are? I don't. Even if I'm wrong, and people know who he is, hiring somebody from the system is much worse than hiring somebody who has never heard of ymmss.
Now, as for actual advertising, most companies, before they do any advertising, probably wants to know what success rate a given advertising will offer. Take the $300,000. What other companies has been successful with your advertising? Why should I do business with you when you cannot provide references?
I live in a small town. 20,000 people. i'd guess about 7,000 homes. The average yearly salery of those 7,000 homes is $40,000. So, in the past 3 years, this small city has earned $800,000,000. Thats alot more than the $90,000,000 that ymmss has traded with each other. So, why would a business want to advertise with them and not just advertise in my city?
My city has a nice mixture of people most likely, doctors and lawyers, fas food servers and street cleaners. People with alot of eduction, and people with little. There are probably even some professional criminals here.
If i advertise to ymmss, i am advertising to a group of people that basically has not earned the money that they are paid. There is no useful job as a ad viewer.
If i advertise in my little city, i bet there alot of people that would be interested in my product, whatever it is, just because my city is much more diverse in all aspects than ymmss.
Ymmss claims to be this brand new method of advertising that people will want to stop advertising on the superbowl and shower kim with their gold instead. The truth of the matter is, all businesses are always looking for something new...something better to advertise with. Billbaords, sides of buses, sponsering religious bulitians, shopping cart seats, even now video games. If there were weekly televised trips to the moon I bet some businesses would put their ads up there.
Now, when tv and the radio were young, businesses might have been hesitant about advertising there. They just didnt see the potential. But the internet has been around for many years. Browsers have been around for over a dozen years. The net goes back a few decades. What is so different about his site?
The truth of the matter is if it would work, a business would have come up with it in the late 90s when the net was taking off.
And for people still not totally convinced, to become a retailer advertiser, it only costs about $200. If there were no more EPC sales as of today, and the doubling relied on retailers, like they claim one day will happen, in order to double the 90million, the would need 450,000 advertisers. Is there even that many businesses out there? Now, in 90 days, they will need double that. In less than 4 years, at a cycle rate of 90 days, the number of businesses will surpass the number of humans alive. Even if you account for all the births in the 4 years, and all them babies start up a business and advertise on ymmss, it still will be larger than the world population.
*** WHY IT WONT WORK ***
1. The math is against them no matter what they hope.
2. There is not a full disclosure of moneys going in or coming out.
3. Logic and common sence seem to be dwarfed by blind faith fanaticism
4. the original 60-90 days have failed
5. The original goal of 100k/100k has failed
6. Beliz is an admitted failure
7. auctions is a failure
Until there is a full disclosure on everything, who knows if kim is only taking 25% and not 50%. Who knows if there is any outside revenues, or if kim is taking an additional 5% off the top of each purchase to put into a pretend "I got somebody to give me $300k but i wont tell you who it is" account.
We all know that Kim came from MLM. Whats the difference between MLM and a Ponzi? Well, simply, MLM actually sells a product. I believe that there has to be a certain percentage of the moneys coming from sales rather than recruiting that makes it legal or not, but I'll simply ignore that fact for now.
So, Kim decides that he wants to be on the top of the ladder and create his own system. What he has created is pretty genius, but none the less illegial.
What is the ultimate problem of a ponzi? Like any business it will end, but when it ends there are too many people who never receive anything, who are called doners.
So, what did Kim think about for the 9 months?
1. A true MLM sells product. But, he doesnt want to be bothered with having an inventory, so he needed something he can pretend to be a product. There are many "free" things that can be sold. WEb space, financial advice, homework help, anything that somebody particularly excels at. He didnt want to be bohered with actually taking time for his customers, so he needed something that he can pretend to have some value. Classifieds space. Charge an outrageous amount to post a worthless ad, but the nice thing about this is he can solve his next problem.
2. The people at the bottom of the lists lose out. Well, if he can get businesses to advertise with him by the time his ponzi is colapsing (about now as I write this) to continue to pay off people, nobody will lose.
Ok, he "fixed" the ponzi if it works out for him. Now, he needs to fix his custoemrs.
3. Smarter people tend to jump in quick, let their money double a few times when the system is hot than drop out. So, kim figured more people will keep money in the system if he introduces reaccuring incomes to allow people to keep money in the system and play off their greed. Sure, I can let my money double 6 times (I assume most early birds in ponzi systems probably take out their money by the 4th time) but if I keep it in there a few more cycles I can earn much more money. So, kim figured out how to tap into the greed of his customers.
4. People tend to promote systems when they have money in it. However, some people tend to walk away with the loss when they realize they ve been scamed. If we can get people to come back every week otherwise they wont get paid, we can almost guarantee that they will promote the business for us until they cycle. so, lets make them read ads 30 minutes a week. And, if they dont we ll just take away their positions.
There are a few more elements that make this a well thought out scam, but it still does not make it legal.
*** Ignorance of members ***
If you can stomach any of estos notes, that everybody proudly tells people to read, you will get to a simple line, which I will not quote because I dont want to have to read thru it again, but it says "For all the money i make comes from you and all the money you make comes from me". Well, when I brought that line to the forums, oh that one line is wrong, it needs to be changed. Wait, this is the main selling document to get people to buy into the system. Estos shows himself how ignorant he hopes everybody is because the entire document is mere fluff, nothing more.
And, speaking of estos, a wonderful thread he started is to prove why the system is not a ponzi. Well, I do not need to write 3 pages of proof to show that grass is green, or the sky is blue. Who ultimately is he trying to prove that the system is not a scam? Well, if you have an alternate opinion of the system your post is quickly deleted. So, it would assume he is trying to prove this to members who are starting to see it for what it is. Again, he is basically saying to members that their opinions that they are forming about the system is wrong, so lets show them how stupid they are for thinking that.
I'll leave him alone for now. Now Viper. His usual responce is that people that entered the system are making more money than him, so that proves its not a ponzi. I'm not even sure thats an argument that ponzi people claim. We may say that only early birds benefit and most people lose, but never that somebody who starts after somebody else cannot receive as much. If person 1 only puts in $10, and person 2 puts in $20, by the time person 2 doubles, he earned more money.
Now these are people that should be in the know. But, what about members? Well, when ct is 230 days and they think that a purchase made today will cycle in 230 days, they simply do not know what the cycle time means. CT is how many days ago they are currently working on, now an expectation of how long it will take to cycle.
Than there is the argument that its not a ponzi because there is outside revenues coming in. Well, looking at the numbers shows the the money being funneled out of the system is much much more than the money being put back into the system. If fact, there is no paper trail to prove that there are any outside revenues. Kim has taken about 30million from the system in his own pockets...what is $300k here and there to suggest that there are outside revenues. But, there is no proof that there is anything except word of mouth. Kim could take out 10% of the payouts everyday for 2 weeks and clump it all together in one day to pretend like there is outside revenues. But, thats for another section.
There are many other examples, no offense to any of the members. My goal is not to call them ignorant or foolish. Most of the people posting on the forums seem geniuenly decent kind people. ymmss seems to have a blind faith following. Blind faith is good in religious beliefs, but kim is no religious figure.
*** CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS ***
Ymmss still remains a ponzi, despite people claiming that since there is an outside revenue source that its not a ponzi. However, reviewing the numbers shows that the money coming into the system is far less than the money taking out of the system.
The auction site has, within the month, been the place to pass off a few epcs.
ym golf - I'm not even sure about what that is
Beliz - kim even admitted that the resort will probably never turn a profit. Than why was it invested in?
Banners - They dont pay
Shopping (walmart, etc) - Is simply profit sharing
But, lets not talk about that. What about the $300,000? Compared to the $90,000,000 paid out, its nothing really. 1/3 of 1 percent. This 1/3 of 1% is what people are saying that it proves that ymmss is not a ponzi. However, $300,000 is a good chuck of change on its own. Small companies don't spend that much on a year in advertising. Medium to larger size businesses might spend that. But, on one campaign? A business that has an advertising budget of a million dollars might decide to do half on tv adds, 25% on printed adds (newspapers magazines), 10% on radio, and 10% other (bilboards, internet, other untried methods). So, that $300,000 might only represent a $3million advertising budget.
But, lets step away from theoriticals here and think about reality. June. What is coming up that a business would invest that much in advertising in June? Well, nothing. 4th of july coming up. But, its too late to advertise for that. Maybe some summery stuff...again, just is just the wrong month for that...a few months ago would have been better. Thanksgiving is coming up, but june is too early for that. June just isn't that great of a month to spend alot of money advertising.
So, wehre did that $300,000 come from? Only kim knows.
*** THE FUTURE ***
Who is Michael Hamilton? Some guy that has been part of ymmss since may 2003. He has a vested interest in ymmss since he is getting paid $320 every other day. The person kim hired to head the revenues seaking part of his business is somebody who has benefited from his business. Normally, in business, managers like to hire within. That is good. However, the next phase of that system is to attract retailers to advertise with them, whereas up until now they have been relaying on a ponzi to keep money flowing. Was that a good thing?
Well, take a failing business. If the owner wants to hire a financial guru to go over the books, help cut costs and suggest better ways to do things, would it be more beneficial to hire lower management, or to hire fresh blood, somebody who knows nothing about the business to get some virgin ideas from a professional? Lower management might just suggest things that were tried unsuccessful. An outsider might bring a new depth into the books fixing what the problems were.
Well, what is an MBA doing on a money making site online anyways? Must not be very good at his chosen profession, or is so crooked that he doesnt care how he makes his money so long as he makes it. But, how do we even know what his credentials are? I don't. Even if I'm wrong, and people know who he is, hiring somebody from the system is much worse than hiring somebody who has never heard of ymmss.
Now, as for actual advertising, most companies, before they do any advertising, probably wants to know what success rate a given advertising will offer. Take the $300,000. What other companies has been successful with your advertising? Why should I do business with you when you cannot provide references?
I live in a small town. 20,000 people. i'd guess about 7,000 homes. The average yearly salery of those 7,000 homes is $40,000. So, in the past 3 years, this small city has earned $800,000,000. Thats alot more than the $90,000,000 that ymmss has traded with each other. So, why would a business want to advertise with them and not just advertise in my city?
My city has a nice mixture of people most likely, doctors and lawyers, fas food servers and street cleaners. People with alot of eduction, and people with little. There are probably even some professional criminals here.
If i advertise to ymmss, i am advertising to a group of people that basically has not earned the money that they are paid. There is no useful job as a ad viewer.
If i advertise in my little city, i bet there alot of people that would be interested in my product, whatever it is, just because my city is much more diverse in all aspects than ymmss.
Ymmss claims to be this brand new method of advertising that people will want to stop advertising on the superbowl and shower kim with their gold instead. The truth of the matter is, all businesses are always looking for something new...something better to advertise with. Billbaords, sides of buses, sponsering religious bulitians, shopping cart seats, even now video games. If there were weekly televised trips to the moon I bet some businesses would put their ads up there.
Now, when tv and the radio were young, businesses might have been hesitant about advertising there. They just didnt see the potential. But the internet has been around for many years. Browsers have been around for over a dozen years. The net goes back a few decades. What is so different about his site?
The truth of the matter is if it would work, a business would have come up with it in the late 90s when the net was taking off.
And for people still not totally convinced, to become a retailer advertiser, it only costs about $200. If there were no more EPC sales as of today, and the doubling relied on retailers, like they claim one day will happen, in order to double the 90million, the would need 450,000 advertisers. Is there even that many businesses out there? Now, in 90 days, they will need double that. In less than 4 years, at a cycle rate of 90 days, the number of businesses will surpass the number of humans alive. Even if you account for all the births in the 4 years, and all them babies start up a business and advertise on ymmss, it still will be larger than the world population.
*** WHY IT WONT WORK ***
1. The math is against them no matter what they hope.
2. There is not a full disclosure of moneys going in or coming out.
3. Logic and common sence seem to be dwarfed by blind faith fanaticism
4. the original 60-90 days have failed
5. The original goal of 100k/100k has failed
6. Beliz is an admitted failure
7. auctions is a failure
Until there is a full disclosure on everything, who knows if kim is only taking 25% and not 50%. Who knows if there is any outside revenues, or if kim is taking an additional 5% off the top of each purchase to put into a pretend "I got somebody to give me $300k but i wont tell you who it is" account.