Kicked Out

[swishnev]

I may be the first member kicked out of YMMSS?? Following is part of an email I rec'd from Admin and Kim:

After discussing this with Kim, the decision has been made to terminate
your account with us. Your commission position shows that you have made a
***EPC purchase. The cost of that is in the process of being refunded to
your intgold account number ******. Your account has been deactivated
effective immediately and any other accounts that you hold with us have
also been deactivated.

How about those apples? :head:

[Salsa]

Gosh, they're going to give you a refund? That's cool. Maybe the goal of members who are not within range of cycling should be to get kicked out!

[swishnev]

this is where it went downhill: i wrote him a personal email saying:

> Answers to my questions have not been answered by the Announcements, Help
> Desk, through Forums, or even by Kim in the past and I have no reason to
> believe it will happen in the future. I apologize for my mistake on the
> number of "expelled" members, but at one time YMMSS made a mistake on the
> number 90 for CT, so I'll consider it a wash at this time. The new
> announcement did not shed light on the topic other than you have had many
> months to take care of these servers and have still failed at successfully
> completing that task. On top of that, you did not process for 7 days and
> this will cause CTs to rise. I am not concerned about not cycling, in
> fact,
> I'm more worried about the people who put people into YMMSS that can not
> afford CTs to rise any higher and also worried about people who are
> beginning to put money into YMMSS without really knowing what's going on.
> I
> accept your first warning and also issue you your first warning for abuse
> against a member, as this is a subjective issue and I personally consider
> it
> abuse under my terms. I would hope this would be the last email I receive
> from you as I do not consider it my job to answer your questions, yet it
> is
> your job to answer mine.


He replied with:

We are sorry you feel this way. It is obvious by your return reply that
you are not fully understanding your affiliate agreement nor how the
commissions work even though all of the information is on the websites or
can be obtained by helpDesk requests. It is also obvious that you do not
understand that it is the job of the abuse department to ask questions and
enforce the affiliate agreement and marketing rules. I tried to open a
dialogue with you but you refused but instead made threats. As mentioned
earlier, there is zero tolerance on this issue.

along with the paragraph i had entered initially.

[surfer]

Glad they are refunding you swishnev.

"It's the squeaky wheel that gets the
grease." :D

Of course, that's exactly what they
should do. The majority of members
were lied to about either the 90 day
cycle time guaranteee or the "reserve"
funds supposedly set aside to honor
that guarantee.

Add that to numerous other misleading
statements made by Kim and crew.

BTW swishnev, who is the "he" that
let you know you were terminated?

[swishnev]

some guy named dave is all i know, no last name given

[surfer]

Perhaps Dave Summit, the YMForum admin,
YMAuctions webmaster, etc. A man with
many hats and the paper bag over his head
in his forum avatar. :)

[swishnev]

i have no idea, i better get my money back though. i'm keeping that email, i told him i was forwarding it to my legal team

[200_K_already]

good bye Swishy

[200_K_already]

wow, 19 posts already - only joined today - you've been a busy wee boy eh?

[swishnev]

200 k, i hope you have that cash in the bank and not "hoping" to get it later.

[200_K_already]

Wouldn't you like to know!

You shouldn't have blown it Swishy - you dont know how very bad timing your exit was.

[surfer]

As Alan's first post at MatrixWatch (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=21895&postcount=177) will tell you
swishnev, he doesn't care as long as he comes
out on top.

As IT4US goes down the toilet, Alan is
happy to spend the money of the losers.

[200_K_already]

And your point is?

If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend countless hours answering people and guiding and helping where I can. Not to mention popping in here to correct your heresies!

[swishnev]

After initially being on YM Forums for awhile I ran into Alan the 'mod' and Alan the 'member'. When Alan began to abuse his power as a mod I had already begun to document his actions in a personal database. I even told Alan about this and things began to change towards the end of my tenure at YMMSS. I think Alan is more than likely a statistical outlier when it comes to the people of YMMSS and should be dealt with as such. Just leave him alone, let him make his remarks and don't worry about it. They don't hold any water.

[200_K_already]

How sad. I liked you too.

You are most insincere Shaun

[Cross]

I may be the first member kicked out of YMMSS?? Following is part of an email I rec'd from Admin and Kim:

After discussing this with Kim, the decision has been made to terminate
your account with us. Your commission position shows that you have made a
***EPC purchase. The cost of that is in the process of being refunded to
your intgold account number ******. Your account has been deactivated
effective immediately and any other accounts that you hold with us have
also been deactivated.

How about those apples? :head:

Swishnev,
Am I correct in reading that you have made only one EPC purchase and that will be refunded, meaning your total purchases will be refunded??

If this is the case I will take that deal. If YM will refund my purchases I will be out in a minute. I find this highly doubtful though because I think the majority of the membership would jump ship if they could just come out even and YM obviously doesn't have the money for that.

And the reason you have not got paid yet is because there is ZERO dollars in the CPA. You have to wait till some new members makes a purchase before you can get paid.

[AvidA]

Kim sure was agitated and tired on last nights phone call. Why would he be going to the UK? No, I mean for real...why? Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Also, it's nice to be able to come here and get your freakin questions answered. Has anyone noticed how communistic the YMforums have become? You can't say anything or ask any question they don't want you to ask. That is so weird...hmmmmmmmm

[Salsa]

AvidA!

I'm glad to see you keeping your chin up. I've been thinking about you and even just mentioned you in another thread. Please don't stay away for so long.

I wish you well,
Salsa

[Arzel]

Hello eveyone, especially the new members which have joined in the past few days. I have been away on a much needed vacation and unable to contribute anything lately.

I can see that things are still following a somewhat predictable course. I hope that more and more disallusioned YMMSS members come here, if for no other reason to just talk openly and have questions answered as AvidA has stated.

Salsa, DrZod, your continued involvement here is very comforting, and I personally thank you both for your help in welcoming new members as well.

[Salsa]

Gosh, Arzel, we were practically lost without you!

How was Belize? :D :D

[Arzel]

:)

It is quite ironic that you would ask about Belize, and quite ironic just in general for the purpose of my trip. I have always wanted to learn to scuba dive, and I had the opportunity to finally to learn.

I was in Rivera Maya, which is not too far from Belize. I also talked to my diving instructors about Belize to try and learn a little from some dive masters. The people I talked to didn't have anything particularly interesting to say about Belize or the St. George resort, but I did learn that Dive instructors don't really make all that much. There are so many places to dive and so many dive resorts and businesses that most of the instructors dive for the love of diving (which I quickly found out is quite addicting.) The more that I learned about this business, the more I am certain that the Belize resort will never be a huge money maker (and it has already been stated to not be making a profit at this time.)

[AvidA]

I appreciate that I have been missed! :D

Arzel, what do you think would be necessary for YMMSS to succeed? Do you think there's anything that could make it work?
Thank you from your math illiterate AvidA. :rolleyes:

P.S. You weren't in Belize making deals with Kim were you? :evil: :p

[Arzel]

I appreciate that I have been missed! :D

Arzel, what do you think would be necessary for YMMSS to succeed? Do you think there's anything that could make it work?
Thank you from your math illiterate AvidA. :rolleyes:

P.S. You weren't in Belize making deals with Kim were you? :evil: :p

:) When I started planning my trip I specifically took Belize off my list of possible countries to visit. :)

Ahh, a viable working YMMSS.

Well, you simply cannot have a viable business that allows you to double your money in such a short period of time with no risk involved. So the whole notion of having your EPC's cycle and give you money back has got to go, and that doesn't really leave you much of company anymore. The problem with ideas such as YMMSS is that they are a deficit system. Kind of like using one car battery to charge another. Regardless of how efficient the transfer system is, something is invariably lost in the transfer.

The most important thing to understand is that YMMSS does not create anything of value greater than what it takes for the system to run. EPC sales by themselves create an infinite deficit system as well. Every purchase of $10 requires $20 in the future, and as purchases approach infinity the amount required to process them is twice infinity. It ends up being a large number problem and I won't go into large number theory here.

Now YMMSS is not an efficient system. 25% is lost in the transfer of funds creating an even greater deficit. The outside revenue is touted as a way to bypass these problem, but it also suffers from a couple of problems. If it was completely efficient it would take $10 of advertising for each $10 EPC purchased. $10 from the original sale and $10 in advertising would go forward to pay the future $20. However Advertising is not an efficient system. No company is going to pay $10 in advertising in hopes of realizing $10 in profit, it is a net zero for the advertiser. Regardless of the ammount they advertise it will always be less than the amount they expect to recieve in profit, even if it is a microscopic amount they will never equal out.

Finally, since the consumer would have to spend all of their earnings on products sold by the advertisers it would be a net deficit system for the consumer. We can safely say that consumers will not spend more than they are making for an extended period of time.

So we have multiple deficit systems. Deficit within the YMMSS structure of 25%, an unknown deficit within the advertising structure, and a consumer limit within the ability to purchase items from the advertisers.

This leave us with only COMPLETELY independent sources of revenue to bridge these gaps. The resort in Belize is not producing any revenue anyway, but even if it was, it would require membership in YMMSS, so it is not independent. YMAuctions has the potential to be independent, but because of it's close ties to YMMSS, anyone that joins would (if YMMSS was working) join YMMSS anyway thus it is not going to be independent. The same applies to the golf game and the myriad of other little businesses being touted by YMMSS.

The only completely independent source is the outside investment touted by Kim, but simple analysis shows the return of investment on that needs to be at least 25% and probably as much as 50% of the total source of revenue, making it a better source of potential income than YMMSS. In which case what would be the point of even operating YMMSS? And remember those investments have to limit toward infinity along with the basic EPC doubling revenue.

So the answer is you cannot not make it work. IF you could develop a system where all you had to do was read ads for 30 minutes a week for work, everyone would be able to quit their jobs, and no one would work...well very few people at least, and if everyone was reading and posting advertising the supply would far out strip demand and the system would fail anyway.

To quote Aristotle, "Nature abhors a vacuum", and that is what YMMSS, one big one sucking your money right out of your pocket.

[Gringo]

If I didn't care, I wouldn't spend countless hours answering people and guiding and helping where I can. Not to mention popping in here to correct your heresies!

Saying Kim is not a con artist and YMMSS is not a ponzi is not correcting "heresies", it's simply denying them. You have yet to provide a single rational response to correct the many specific problems and faults with the YMMSS system that have been raised here. But then, denying can be your only response since it's mathmatically impossible to perpetually pay out the ponzi that YMMSS is, as been pointed out many times here, and it's impossible for you to retract the promises and assurances Kim has made and then reneged on.

[Dreamer]

Im almost updated on this thread, but before I go to work, I want to point out something i think azreal already pointed out.

If Kim had his way he woudl have 100k members earning $100k/year all paid off by advertising dollars. Disregard that advertisers wont pay for money that doesnt make them money.

Thats $10billion dollars for the first year, $20billion each additional year (since nobody will want to double anymore). So, in 10 years it would have taken in $210billion. But, since people are cashing in their retirement funds, within 40 years it will have paid out $800billion, and kim would have pocketed $200billion.

Now, what businesses can afford to constantly throw money away like that? That $800billion spent by advertisers will most likely put most of them out of business since they are advertising to people that do not spend money.

Unfortunately, any system that claims to double is ultimately a scam because it cannot double anymore.

Look at ymmss now. everybody who play online businesses like this is probably already a member. How to keep it going? There are not that many more people in the pool to find to recruit.

If advertising started now, there is only a few dozen, maybe 100 people that have actually withdrawn more money than they put in. 99% of the people have yet to make back their investment, most likely, so these are really not the types of people you want to advertise to.

[Cross]

I suppose I will post this here is my buddy Alan deletes all of my post in his domain

Question for Kim?
3. How long would you estimate it would take, taking into consideration the new income streams, to reach the Nov. 18th payout date?

Kim's Answer:
I don't have a clue. There are to many variables such as what are the new purchases each day both retail and wholesale. How much money is generated from all our other sources?


I love the fact that my money is in the hands of someone who doesn't have a clue! :eek:

[surfer]

lol lol lol

Yep, I saw that Cross.

I almost started a separate thread here titled

Kim Inman says "I don't have a clue."

Simply amazing that the "visionary" leader who
"designed" YMMSS to cycle everyone's money
in a 60-90 day period has no clue about how
much revenue he should expect.

We've been much more accurate here in our
cycle time predictions than Mr. Inman has. :eek:

[Cross]

I was asked to post my question about Kim not having a clue in the thread specifically for that and I did so now Alan has now deleted it twice.

[surfer]

And soon you'll probably be deleted, especially
after posting what you have here.

Oh well. :D

[Cross]

I should be ok. I have been a member for a long time. I don't speak any lies about YMMSS, but feel I should be allowed to speak my opinion and ask questions when they owe me thousands of $$$ right now. The problem with the forums are a Mod here and there. The Majority of them are good people and allow you to speak your mind under the TOU's. However certains people will delete your post just because they don't agree.

The other day I listed the stats of CT's, commissions, and membership over the last 6 months and it was deleted and I got a note saying I was being negative.

The numbers speak for themselves, not my fault if the numbers aren't pleasing to you. If you view the numbers as negative, maybe that should tell you something.

Although it seems as though they are gearing to ban any one that says anything they deem negative and quote the TOU's. Yet the TOU cleary states no predictions etc. are allowed, yet 95% of the post are predicting CT will come down like it is a fact when they have no clue, which seems to be a common condition lately.

[AvidA]

Kim's Answer:
I don't have a clue. There are to many variables such as what are the new purchases each day both retail and wholesale. How much money is generated from all our other sources?


I love the fact that my money is in the hands of someone who doesn't have a clue!

Cross! I heard that as well and I just wanted to know if you counted how many times he didn't know something or was surprised at a certain number? I counted 5 different times that he didn't have a clue as to what was going on on last nights call. I once asked him on the phone if he felt the weight of the world on his shoulders and he laughed and said "no". Last night I HEARD the weight of the world on his shoulders. He was agitated and impatient...he reminded me of a man who is losing ground and knows it but just won't say "I give". He even commented that he didn't believe in limits!!! :crazy: Still it is hard for me to say that he is a bad man...deliberatly bad. I really do think he is having a mental breakdown.

Thank you Arzel for your articulate reasoning behind a non working YMMSS. I thought that maybe if there were a cap on how much one could make from adverts..such as one EPC ($320.00) per week per person then maybe it would have had a chance. I was thinking that if that were the case then greed was definitely the motivating factor. BUT since I am math illiterate lol , I guess it doesn't really matter. Bottom line is greed is the motivating factor no matter how you slice it.
BTW I was one of the first ones in and I still have made no money and I now know that I never will. :weep: I wish I could have been better at math... :head:

[bowmaker]

cross ,
i have had around 30 post deleted in 2 months . i have never recieved a note or a pm stating why my post was deleted . and your right . some mods delete post just because they dont agree with you , or because they arent able to defend whats going on with ymmss when the facts are posted by a "negative" member.

i think whole threads have been deleted because of my post. they say negativity breeds negativity.

[Casandra]

i have no idea, i better get my money back though. i'm keeping that email, i told him i was forwarding it to my legal team
I would not have posted these communications before waiting a reasonable time to see my refund in hand. Now you have no "leverage" left if you need to remind them of their word to refund you. I hope you see your money back soon.

[Cross]

Bowmaker,
I have had about that many post deleted as well, all by the same Mod. except one post. Actually in all of my time in YMMSS, with about 50 post deleted total, they were all deleted by 1 mod except about 5.

But you are lucky, I get a PM from this mod just to rub it in I think, and let me know he has more power in the forum than me.

Hopefully we will still be around in 13 months for that 19.5 million to come in each week and we will all be rich right??

[surfer]

I see that in addition to swishnev getting the boot,
another member has been emancipated from YMMSS (http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=13299&view=findpost&p=293369).

Did you get your refund yet, swishnev?

Looks like the other guy received his almost immediately.

[Gringo]

Interesting that Kim would give a refund. Wonder where the money is coming from? The CPA? Did he pull 25% from his own funds? Wouldn't really have thought that he would do this if he was 100% a pure con man. Is he feeling guilty? Is this hush money? What's going on here?

[surfer]

I'm not shocked at all.

It's a good PR move.

Also, anybody who joined before December
was lied to about the way things were set
up.

As far as I'm concerned, those people are
due refunds if they want because the
product is directly tied to the earnings
opportunity.

[Salsa]

Giving no-questions-asked refunds is a classic Ponzi tactic. Charles Ponzi, himself did it. More than once there were hordes of people pounding on his door, demanding refunds. When everyone saw him readily passing out refunds to the first people in line, nearly all of them chose to go home empty handed, with renewed confidence that their investments were in safe hands.

I haven't read that history in a while, but as I recall, those episodes also added vigor to new investments due to the renewed confidence.

[surfer]

http://www.mark-knutson.com/therun.html

Notice also in there that it mentions ponzi
having liabilities far acceeding his assets.

EPCs are liabilities in this Ponzi scheme.

[swishnev]

i received my refund for the epc's i purchased, plus my membership fee over the weekend.

[surfer]

Good for you swishnev. :applause:

[surfer]

Oh boy, drzod registered at the YMForums. :eek:

I wonder if they'll even activate his account.

Behave drzod. Maybe try to PM YMForum admins to
see if they can do something to get you a refund.

[swishnev]

surfer, are you a ym mod as well? how do you know he registered?

[surfer]

Just go to the forums and you'll see his name as
the newest registered member, at least until
someone else registers.

Plus, even guests can view the memberlist.

[swishnev]

gracias

[swishnev]

my guesstimate is that he's not going to be very successful in getting his money back though

[surfer]

Well, they have set a precedent with you and Layton.

However, his situation is different in that he was in
long enough to cycle and pull out if he had figured
everything out soon enough.

Of course, Kim would save himself over $5K by giving
him a refund of his initial "spend" and letting him out.

[swishnev]

well, they can just look on this message board and see what he's trying to do. i know in my case i wasn't trying to be "expelled" on purpose. it was just something that happened.

[surfer]

Right.

I didn't even think most of your posts were
that "negative". I guess it was the fact that
you seemed to question Kim's leadership and
business skills that did you in.

There is yet to be anything that gets done
even remotely within the specified time frame.

[Salsa]

When surfer noticed that drzod had registered for the YMMSS forum, I just had to go and see if he'd posted yet.

But here's something very interesting--that goes right with the theme of this thread:

Back on 6/12 I noted in a different thread that the forum membership was 8507 strong. Since then, it appears that 179 new members have joined, bringing the total to 8,686--one would think.

But guess what? I just took a fresh look, and there are currently only 7,550 members!

What happened to 1,136 members in the past two weeks?!

Were they quietly kicked out?

Was the database corrupted or purged in the server transfer?

What?

[surfer]

LOL Salsa.

No conspiracy in this case. They simply purged all
the accounts that had never been activated. :D

If you look at the memberlist, 4868 out of the 7552
registered have either never bothered to post at all
or the few posts they did make were deleted when
admin prunes the forums.

[Salsa]

LOL Salsa.

No conspiracy in this case. They simply purged all
the accounts that had never been activated. :D

If you look at the memberlist, 4868 out of the 7552
registered have either never bothered to post at all
or the few posts they did make were deleted when
admin prunes the forums.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, surfer. Still, it seems like a very large number to get purged within only two weeks. How often do they do that? Have you deduced any member activity trends from that in the past?

Salsa

[Salsa]

Hmmm. I also see that swishnev is still on the member list...

...so maybe more members than that have been kicked out, and there really is a conspiracy! :evil:

[surfer]

You're welcome.

As far as I can remember, I've never seen them
clear out the forum member db.

But they've just recently started an ongoing
thread welcoming each new batch of members
as they appear on the forums in an attempt
to get people to be more involved

It's pretty easy to get people to join a forum,
but it's a pain in the rear to get people active
and participating.

[liveandlearn]

Hi -

As I posted previously, you all may remember, I ask for a refund a couple of weeks ago and they replied with they would not refund me. I could send all my personal info drivers license etc etc and they would try to sell my position for me with no guarantee. Well after seeing a couple of you receive refunds I thought I would try one more time so this was what I sent in:

Hello-

I requested a refund a couple of weeks ago and you sent me an email asking for all my information picture ID etc. to be faxed to you and then you would try to sell my position. I don't want to sell it I want a refund. I do not feel comfortable sending you all my personal information when all you have to do is refund it back to my INT Gold acct. You have all the info you need to do that. I have heard of others that have gotten a refund and I am not understanding why you can give it to some and not others. You are always talking about doing things morally and ethically. But to this date you have not followed through in any way with what I was told when I joined this company. I am sure that it will not hurt you to just send me my $320.00's. As a matter of fact, if my position is dissolved then someone else will move up the ladder faster in my place. Please just refund my money as I have requested.

Well here is the response I got back:
Hello
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what any other member has said but the only time we make a refund is for the following:
1) A member paid the membership fee more than once on the same account
2) If a member accidentally signed up as a Retail member and meant to sign up as Affiliate.

Once a purchase is made, we do not refund and this is clearly explained in the membership agreement.
YMMSS Refund Policy: You understand and agree that all sales are final and that we do not provide voluntary refunds. This is due to the fact that YMMSS sells advertising space, which cannot be defective.

Thank you

Just thought I would let you know the response I received. I guess I have not been negative enough or asked enough questions in the YMforum to get a refund. So the moral of the story is be negative and ask inquiring questions to Kim and you might get a refund. Other than that... it sounds like your are out of luck.

Liveandlearn

[surfer]

Thanks for the update.

Looks like your username here is perfect.

Sorry for your disappointment.

Keep trying. :rolleyes: :head:

[Gringo]

Just thought I would let you know the response I received. I guess I have not been negative enough or asked enough questions in the YMforum to get a refund. So the moral of the story is be negative and ask inquiring questions to Kim and you might get a refund. Other than that... it sounds like your are out of luck.

This sounds like the boiler plate response that they must generate from the hundreds of refund requests that they get. You're probably right that you have to really stir things up and get noticed on the forums for them to offer a refund in exchange for kicking you out and shutting you up.

[Casandra]

This sounds like the boiler plate response that they must generate from the hundreds of refund requests that they get. You're probably right that you have to really stir things up and get noticed on the forums for them to offer a refund in exchange for kicking you out and shutting you up.
Did anyone save the agrevating ads that were posted to the ad forum? Wouldn't those mods love to have them continued by Liveandlearn? I think that might be the ticket! Those ads might have value at YMAuction ;)

[mechanic]

Hi -

As I posted previously, you all may remember, I ask for a refund a couple of weeks ago and they replied with they would not refund me. I could send all my personal info drivers license etc etc and they would try to sell my position for me with no guarantee. Well after seeing a couple of you receive refunds I thought I would try one more time so this was what I sent in:

Hello-

I requested a refund a couple of weeks ago and you sent me an email asking for all my information picture ID etc. to be faxed to you and then you would try to sell my position. I don't want to sell it I want a refund. I do not feel comfortable sending you all my personal information when all you have to do is refund it back to my INT Gold acct. You have all the info you need to do that. I have heard of others that have gotten a refund and I am not understanding why you can give it to some and not others. You are always talking about doing things morally and ethically. But to this date you have not followed through in any way with what I was told when I joined this company. I am sure that it will not hurt you to just send me my $320.00's. As a matter of fact, if my position is dissolved then someone else will move up the ladder faster in my place. Please just refund my money as I have requested.

Well here is the response I got back:
Hello
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what any other member has said but the only time we make a refund is for the following:
1) A member paid the membership fee more than once on the same account
2) If a member accidentally signed up as a Retail member and meant to sign up as Affiliate.

Once a purchase is made, we do not refund and this is clearly explained in the membership agreement.
YMMSS Refund Policy: You understand and agree that all sales are final and that we do not provide voluntary refunds. This is due to the fact that YMMSS sells advertising space, which cannot be defective.

Thank you

Just thought I would let you know the response I received. I guess I have not been negative enough or asked enough questions in the YMforum to get a refund. So the moral of the story is be negative and ask inquiring questions to Kim and you might get a refund. Other than that... it sounds like your are out of luck.

Liveandlearn

I went to the help desk also and I told them I would be happy to claim by website,if I could claim in the next day,and please dont insult my intelligence by telling me that I had to wait until I cycled in 2007 which would not happen since YM would not be there.I also posted nothing negetive on the bb,just figures that they could not deny,the most ardent supporters were posting them.They would delete and I would repost,they would edit per tou,I would repost worded different.The kicker came when Esto made the post(negativity is on the way out)I posted to it in quote that does that mean that I can get my money back before 2007? They deleted,I reposted and said that It looked like sencership was the order of the day,so much for free speech,then Viper PM me and said my voice was heard and Esto PM me thursday morning and I told him what I wanted and Thursday afternoon I had all funds in my Stormpay and four e-mails from Kim wanting to know if I was satisfied.

That is the whole story.

Layton

[drzod]

Interesting, I tried to register yesterday and gave a bogus e-mail address, etc. I received a response back stating that the email address I used was unable to be verified, so I assumed that it did not let me in. I guess it did.

My last posts to the gold, silver, and general forums generated no responses, but were not deleted. This leads me to believe one of two things.

01) Members have come here, learned my intentions, and ignore what I post.

02) Members are not reading ads due to all the issues with the servers and the crackdown on negative ads.

I do not think I will do anything rash at this point. I will simply post a request inquiring about refunds.

I might even hear from our old friend Alan again!

[Salsa]

DrZod,

I'd encourage you to also follow up on your complaints (http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2783) to your AG and the SEC, FTC, etc. And encourage other members to do so as well!

I think it will require complaints from several members to these commissions and various attorney generals before they will begin taking serious legal measures against YMMSS. And what is needed now (the sooner the better) is a government investigation into YMMSS's illegal activities. This is not only for your personal financial stakes, but for the thousands of other YMMSS victims who will otherwise quietly disappear.

Please do it.

Salsa

[drzod]

Any ideas as to why I have not heard from the NC AG? As I stated in the complaint thread, I sent a follow-up inquiry on 06/16/05. I still have not received a response. Do they traditionally only reply when it has been a confirmed ponzi? I would think it would be in their best interest to go after a site before it shuts down and the owners walk away. I am sure they investigate hundreds if not thousands of complaints/leads, so any ideas on how to escalate this one?

[sisco50]

Any ideas as to why I have not heard from the NC AG? As I stated in the complaint thread, I sent a follow-up inquiry on 06/16/05. I still have not received a response. Do they traditionally only reply when it has been a confirmed ponzi? I would think it would be in their best interest to go after a site before it shuts down and the owners walk away. I am sure they investigate hundreds if not thousands of complaints/leads, so any ideas on how to escalate this one?

It will take a massive amount of complaints against a business before anyone really takes notice. Especially if they are based offshore. AGs can warn people about suspected fraudulant activities and they can even write up a C & D, but what else can they really do about this type of scenario? When was the last time an AG from some state flew to Belize and arrested someone? Unfortunately, I don't see much happening with this situation without a mass of people filing complaints quickly. A few complaints here and there will not get any action from anyone. :(

[surfer]

Well, it has to start somewhere. :)

Even generating a cease and desist order would
help deter people from being sucked in to the
ponzi.

[Shoes]

DrZod,

I'd encourage you to also follow up on your complaints (http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2783) to your AG and the SEC, FTC, etc. And encourage other members to do so as well!

I think it will require complaints from several members to these commissions and various attorney generals before they will begin taking serious legal measures against YMMSS. And what is needed now (the sooner the better) is a government investigation into YMMSS's illegal activities. This is not only for your personal financial stakes, but for the thousands of other YMMSS victims who will otherwise quietly disappear.

Please do it.

Salsa


I thought this matrix watch was to discuss, inform and warn about matrix business - not to devise wicked plans to try and bring about the demise of a company with thousands of affiliates.

Isn't that against the rules in here?

:cool:

[surfer]

I believe part of the purpose is also to steer
those who were lied to, misled, deceived, etc.
to the proper agencies.

Legitimate companies should have no worries.

[swishnev]

amazingly, i agree with both shoes and surfer in this case....the purpose here isn't to devise wicked plans on how to bring about the demise of a company (i think you can find a post of mine from yesterday where i did not help someone wanting to get a refund from ymmss in a non-conventional way). at the same time though, i completely agree with surfer and in this instance i think people were just trying to steer that member(s) on how to properly file and follow up on a complaint.

[drzod]

If YMMSS is legit, it should welcome a forum that discusses tough issues - including those who feel it should be shut down for whatever reason. Legitimate businesses produce results and effectively crush the rumor mill. No one at YMMSS is answered the call presented here to simply prove how the YMMSS business model could work in the long term. How can YMMSS effectively double your commission forever with no caps or limits?

All of the "fixes" touted on YMMSS have done nothing to the bottom line, which is the cycle time.

To make matters worse, I was reviewing my files from back on 01/05/04 when I joined YMMSS. In big bold letters it says, "You are Guaranteed to Make a Profit." In addition, it offers the following:

"Double you money back guarantee! - If you join our $10.00 a week or higher program and your commissions don't at least double your out of pocket expense at the end of 24 months, we will refund you double your total purchase amount."

(There is also a triple your money back guarantee for 36 months.)

It does not apply to me because my commissions are more than double that of my original out of pocket expense. However, I am willing to bet that members who joined after 10/24/04 would be interested (even though I doubt YMMSS will exist in Oct of 2006).

I notice that the YMMSS lawyers have pressed Kim to remove this point on the new site - I can't image why......

[Gringo]

It will take a massive amount of complaints against a business before anyone really takes notice. Especially if they are based offshore.

I agree. Unfortunately, as I mentioned in the End Game (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2747) thread, Kim probably has many more months of life left in his games, though maybe not YMMSS as it stands now since it continues to dry up, but also in some sort of "new and improved" programs.

One idea that might give the AG a kick in the butt is a letter to your congressperson asking them to follow up with the AG.

[swishnev]

I don't know Kim personally but I know people who know Kim personally and they all agreed that he is a good person. This makes me think that he's not out to "purposely" take people's money. The optimist in me says that he's just run into some things that he didn't think of beforehand and is running out of time before the whole thing boils over and becomes bad. I hope this is the case because a lot of people that were/are friends with him have a lot of money in YMMSS and if they lost that money they would be in very bad shape and a friend wouldn't purposely do that to anyone

[surfer]

Like you swishnev, I also prefer to remain
possibly a bit naive.

There are always people who will say what
a wonderful person these guys are and
someone always knows someone.

Look through a few previous posts by
optimistclub (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/member.php?u=2218) on these forums to see that
he knows some people who have a little
different view of Kim Inman.

If I lived anywhere near Indiana, I'd try
to hunt some people down.

Sometimes we don't even really "know"
our best friends.

[swishnev]

wow, very interesting indeed

[drzod]

As predicted, I was formally evicted from YMMSS on 07/01/05.

My $370 donation to the "build Kim Inman a bigger house in Vincennes fund" has bought me so much:

-30 minutes a week savings from reading those all-important ads.

-No need to provide my personal information via the Mike Hamilton survey.

-Cycle times are no longer a worry.

-My posts will not longer be deleted.

-EPC's have been all used up.

-Lies, deception, and false truths have vanished.

-I am no longer subjected to "happy grams" and brainwashing.

Anyway, listed below is the e-mail from YMadmin:

YMMSS Account Deactivation - Case #6305

YM Username: drzod

Your YMMSS account has been deactivated for violation of the YMMSS
Affiliate agreement.

Refunds are not mandatory when we deactivate. In reference to your message to swishnev, we refunded him in good faith and did not have to take this action. Because your intent is clear; You intend to become hostile to
YMMSS in hopes of deactivation and refund we chose to continue with
deactivation without refund.

Your sponsor (xxxxxxx) has been copied their information.
Please reference your posts below for the reason taken for this action.

YM Abuse Administration
===========================

They then go on and quote (word for word I must add) posts #8 (bottom of page 1) and #11 (top of page 2) of mine under YMMSS Financial Burden - the first 500 members.

Here is my response sent back last evening (07/05/05):

Interesting that you are pulling comments from matrix watch, which is in no way affiliated with YMMSS. Enjoy my $370. If you were legit, you would issue a refund anyway. Your actions have reinforced my belief that you are a ponzi. I will be sure to include your e-mail on matrix watch to show them how you treat other members. I was only asking for information that you failed to provide. What is wrong with pointing members to matrix watch to get an alternate view of what is going on? People are smart and can make up their own minds about what is right or wrong. Nothing since the new web site was introduced has been positive in regards to cycle time. How do answer for this?

********************

I removed the reference to my sponsor so he would not "get in trouble."

[swishnev]

wow, i'm very surprised you didn't get a refund. what did you initially post that made them unhappy other than the info you were looking for about ymmss??

[drzod]

I have posted everything on this site that I posted to the YMMSS forums. I have never been "hostile" on their forums - just inquisitive. They came here, read my intentions and kicked me out based on those. Interesting move on their part that just shows how desperate they were to get rid of me before I turned more members on to this site.

[surfer]

Not surprising at all.

Trying to lure YMMSS affiliates to this site
would definitely be viewed as an attempt to
harm the company.

Glad you didn't have thousands invested.

[drzod]

Surfer, did you mean harm the scam instead of harm the company? (sorry I couldn't resist)

I still know other YMMSS members, so I will not be in the dark about happenings on the member site.

[surfer]

Surfer, did you mean harm the scam instead of harm the company? (sorry I couldn't resist)
One and the same drzod. ;)

I will not be in the dark about happenings on the member site.
Nor will I. :D

Please do keep us posted if you ever hear back
from the AG.

With YMMSS being based out of Belize, anyone
filing complaints may also want to file with the
Internet Fraud Complaint Center (http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp) run by the FBI.

[swishnev]

i would keep trying to get that money if i were you dr. zod. there has to be some way to get it back

[drzod]

I am not giving up. I just have to take some time to consider my options. My only inroad to YMMSS right now seems to be YMforums (if I set up another account - although they may block my primary IP address), and YMadmin.

[surfer]

I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that
while they are well within their rights to "fire"
you as an independent contractor, they are
actually refusing to pay you for services
rendered.

You agreed to read ads for at least 30 minutes
per week and they agreed to pay you for it.

None of this seems to be covered in their
current affiliate agreement at
http://www.ymmss.org/agreement.php

Termination of course wipes out any future
earnings, but I don't know that they can
legally withhold past earnings.

Just some thoughts. ;)

[Arzel]

They can no longer claim that no one has every lost a penny at YMMSS.

DRZod, I think you have a real legal case in your situation. Not one of your complaints was regarding the advertisement aspect of YMMSS. Your only complaint was the cycle time issue. YMMSS deleted your advertising without giving you due compensation for said advertising.

Take them to small claims court in your state for the ammount of your advertising cost claiming that your advertisements were deleted. Not quite sure how this would play out, but I think YMMSS has made a huge mistake in not refunding your money.

[sisco50]

They can no longer claim that no one has every lost a penny at YMMSS.

DRZod, I think you have a real legal case in your situation. Not one of your complaints was regarding the advertisement aspect of YMMSS. Your only complaint was the cycle time issue. YMMSS deleted your advertising without giving you due compensation for said advertising.

Take them to small claims court in your state for the ammount of your advertising cost claiming that your advertisements were deleted. Not quite sure how this would play out, but I think YMMSS has made a huge mistake in not refunding your money.

If nothing else, they further comfimed what has been said here for quite some time now. Just another scam that is rapidly falling apart? :)

[swishnev]

i think arzel is onto something

[concerned]

I have never been "hostile" on their forums - just inquisitive.

This just shows that they are running a scam. In a real business, they ANSWER the questions, in a scam, they QUITE the questions.

[drzod]

My plight is also outlined at http://www.workathomenetwork.com/scam-or-not-updates.htm (check the 07/06/05) update.

To all you YMMSS spies reading the posts on this site - do you enjoy this negative publicity?

- I have lost money on YMMSS (you can no longer claim no one has lost money on YMMSS, unless of course, you do not consider former members to have ever been members)

- You refused a refund and kicked my out based on material obtained from another source (this one) that has no affiliation to YMMSS.

- You are inconsistent with your refund policy (which by the way you state does not exist).

- Your moderator, Alan, is posting here as well, check out 200_k_already and shoes. If he can post and not get kicked out, why did you evict me? True his posts supported YMMSS and mine did not, but you would have never known this unless you snooped over here. Alan was unethical because he got kicked out under 200_k_already and had the nerve to re-register under shoes. It looks like you cannot trust one of your own moderators.

- I am still researching the legal options, but even if I do not have any, your actions placed a huge dent in proving your innocence.

I just thought of this one - if I do not have any legal options, maybe I could write off my YMMSS "investment" as a loss for my 2005 taxes.

[swishnev]

drzod, i suggest you look at your legal options and continue on that track until you can not any further. i think, and i don't know where you live, but contacting your state's attorney general is a good start while working your way up to the FBI.

[Salsa]

Actually, I think the best bet is the SEC. Of the government agencies, they seem to take these Ponzi schemes most seriously--or at least they tend to get on the ball more readily. And I do not think it would take a huge mass of complaints from disillusioned members to get their attention--as others have suggested.

Of course, complaints to your state AG, the FTC and FBI are also in order, but I'd start with the SEC.

While there is the downside that most YMMSS cash seems to be offshore, Success Through Advertising, LLC is, or pretends to be, a registered US LLC. Also, as has been mentioned elsewhere, known "winners" who live stateside might also be found liable.

Salsa
_________________________

[swishnev]

you would think ymmss would rather pay drzod his $370 than have to deal with all those agencies and also make their known "winners" who live stateside in trouble if found liable?

[Salsa]

you would think ymmss would rather pay drzod his $370 than have to deal with all those agencies and also make their known "winners" who live stateside in trouble if found liable?
By giving you a refund, swishnev, Kim set a precedent that backfired on him. When news of it leaked out, it may have started an exodus of members who thought that by "making trouble" on the YM forums, they might get refunds, too--the opposite of what Kim hoped to accomplish by quietly silencing a few disenchanted members when he overroad the no-refund policy in your case and a few others.

I think that he then realized that if he kept up that new refund tactic up he might end up as broke as Charles Ponzi was at the end--and YMMSS denied that he ever made them

As for protecting higher-up members, Kim has had to know all along that things would get messy in the end--judging from offshore accounts, etc. When the end will come, however, is still unknown even to him, but he's long made preparations for the day. He'll let the cards fall where they may--and try to stand out of the way.

The decision of whether or not to give refunds, and to whom, is merely a calculation of how to walk away with the greatest amount of money when the end does come. There was never any sense of justice involved in the decision.

Salsa
_____________________

[swishnev]

you would think paying drzod in the short term would benefit, or at least do less harm to ymmss in the long term

[Salsa]

you would think paying drzod in the short term would benefit, or at least do less harm to ymmss in the long term
Well, in the long term, YMMSS will be dead, and Kim knows it. In the meantime, Kim has to calculate the ratio of refund requests to new donations coming in. He isn't there to empty his pockets. He's there to stuff them.

If DrZod were the only member asking for a refund, Kim might say, sure, give him his lousy $370 to get him off our backs. But how many other members who we don't know about are also asking for refunds? And where would it stop when word continues to get out that YMMSS does (did) give refunds?

In Kim's book, giving you a refund was a mistake for the precedent it set. Not giving DrZod a refund may have been an even bigger mistake, but Kim is now operating on borrowed time, anyway. And he knows better than any of us what kinds of ratios are necessary to make it worthwhile to keep the YMMSS doors open.

Salsa
________________

[swishnev]

so to prove to possible members of ymmss that its not a "fraud or con" it might be in kim's best interest to reimburse drzod? sort of a sign of good faith that ymmss will last? if so, then people can look at drzod not being refunded as a sign of ymmss weakness?

[drzod]

From YM Admin about being kicked out:

"Because your intent is clear; You intend to become hostile to YMMSS in hopes of deactivation and refund we chose to continue with deactivation without refund."

So, I was deactivated on intent and not on actual facts or postings. I would like them to produce proof of my hostility on their site - this will be difficult.

[swishnev]

i agree drzod, plus how is your intent clear when you were just asking questions? are questions not allowed on ymmss??? i know they aren't answered..

[Salsa]

so to prove to possible members of ymmss that its not a "fraud or con" it might be in kim's best interest to reimburse drzod? sort of a sign of good faith that ymmss will last? if so, then people can look at drzod not being refunded as a sign of ymmss weakness?
There are a couple of important issues to consider here. One is, just how many new members are coming in these days? Not many. I've even been suspicious that at least some of the recent "I've just joined this great opportunity" type posts have been plants in order to encourage new victims to join. The other issue is that anyone who actually does join these days must not be doing any DD outside of the YM sites, anyway, meaning that they are never going to hear of DrZod's issues, at least until it's way too late. All of his posts and any other "negative" ones will be deleted before new members even see them.

It all comes down to a numbers game and using the psychological strategy that will most benefit Kim. And DrZod's most recent post in this thread confirms what I said earlier: YMMSS does not want to encourage other members to ask difficult questions or to air complaints by rewarding DrZod for doing so. Giving you a refund, swishnev, had the opposite effect of what they wanted, so they've reversed the tactic. It will surely reach up and bite them in the ankle sooner or later, but it will probably cost less than passing out a rash of refunds would, once members learned that dissent in the ranks is a way to get a refund.

Salsa
___________________

[swishnev]

i understand what you are saying salsa and i totally agree with you. i just wonder what they are saying in the "member" forums about all the members that seem to be "here today and expelled tomorrow"

[Casandra]

Perhaps a report to the Better Business Bureau would matter. Anyone who consulted them could see your warning to not do business with this company.

[Me again]

I've been banned 3 times from this forum - so much for free speech?

[Me again]

BY the way, from my count, only about 3 members have been expelled from the ym forum with 1 being allowed back.

3 times I've been banned here - what joke this forum is.

[Arzel]

BY the way, from my count, only about 3 members have been expelled from the ym forum with 1 being allowed back.

3 times I've been banned here - what joke this forum is.

If you cannot not play nicely than go play somewhere else. You have spammed 4 fourms (I already removed one message).

[Salsa]

3 times I've been banned here - what joke this forum is.

Actually, Alan, you were banned only once, and that was after multiple warnings.

[Dreamer]

Hey me again...

I might be the only member that would appreciate your insight here. Yes, there is freedom of speach but when all you do is degrade others.

Why not stand up proudly for ymmss and tell us how we are wrong? Why not post facts, or at least opinions? Why not post something of some significience so you dont hurt ymmss more with your presnece here.

How many of your posts were deleted? Do you know how many of my posts were deleted at ymmss?

[jokach]

Why not post facts, or at least opinions?


I think this is really all anybody is looking for. Most of the pro-YMMSS people who have come here, cut down the members who are 'on-the-line with the program' because they maybe they don't understand how it works, or they've invested money and aren't sure on their return. This is the opportunity for them to explain it, and help people understand and build confidence for others. THe childish behavior exhibited here, shows that they don't care to do that.

btw, the only posts that get deleted from these forums are posts that are blatant violations of our forum rules. We respect the opinions of everybody on this site, and we may not agree, but you are free to speak your mind, but it must be within our rules .... that is why this person got banned time after time. The first time you get a warning because maybe you don't realize what the rule means, but to blatantly continue to violate the rules, knowing its wrong, its your own fault you got banned.

jokach

[Dreamer]

I dont expect any ymmss supporter to have hard cold facts. When I ask in their forums nobody really has answers, so I would be more than happy with opinions. After all, what I post is opinions. The nice thing about posting opinions is people can learn off them. I know when I'm corrected I learn. Maybe others do to.

Its much more constructive to post opinions to communicate your PoV than just simply doing Hit and runs.

[Casandra]

BY the way, from my count, only about 3 members have been expelled from the ym forum with 1 being allowed back.

3 times I've been banned here - what joke this forum is.How many second chances to members booted from YMMSS get? You get a second chance and blow that. What do you want now? a trophy? I think if you act like a troll, you are bound to be treated like one.

[concerned]

BY the way, from my count, only about 3 members have been expelled from the ym forum with 1 being allowed back.

3 times I've been banned here - what joke this forum is.


Well, he only broke the rules about a hundred times, with at least 3 warnings. If he only would have stopped insulting people, he could have stayed. We like scam supporters to post on our forums as long as they follow the rules. That way when they speak, the show the example we are trying to illustrate. But they never can be respectful. So much for being a respectful and ethical business person. Way to show others your example of how an unethical scam supporter operates.


Oh, and it is easy to say that you only removed 3 members when you delete about ALL the posts that make you look bad. Can you count the number of posts we have deleted because we didn't like what was said? The only posts we delete are the ones that break the forum rules, which are usually useless posts wth foul language or insults to others.