response to estos

[Dreamer]

> For many longer-term YMMSS members, an update showing we are not a Ponzi Scheme is needless.

Actually, only for the few that have taken out more money than they put in. You can have $50,000 in stocks, that does not mean you have $50,000. You have to sell your stocks first to get the money. Same with ymmss, except the money involved is not liquid at all. The truth is, that alot of people see how much money they "made" but until its taken out and in their hands, they havent made anything. So, it would probably benefit most of the members to be shown it.

> Our attorney has already given his public assurance that we do not in any way resemble either a Ponzi or Pyramid scheme.

Would you consider him much of an attorney if he said the opposite that you were 100% ponzi? I doubt that he would be your attorney much longer. OJs attorneys said he was innocent. Michael Jacksons attorney says hes innocent. Wait...here is a trend. Drug dealers attorneys claim their clients are innocent, murders were spending time in the library not killing people. I can get an attorney to say anything I want them to say so long as Im paying them enough. And, if they dont say what I want them to say, I find somebody else.

> But how do YOU answer someone says of YMMSS, "Sounds like a Ponzi Scheme to me!"

> My answer:

> Here is what one site says on the subject:

> http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Ponzi_scheme

> It says a "Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying returns to investors out of the money raised from subsequent investors."

> Well, YMMSS is not an investment operation.

investing: the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit

So, what drives people to ymmss? Is it not the laying out of money to double that money? Is there anybody who has become a member who doesnt expect a profit off of their money? Well, read the forums. The forums are filled with people asking about CT. Why? So, they know when their money will double. Wait, isnt the whole premise of ymmss turn $790 into a reaccurring $100,000 income? It sounds like people are expecting a profit, no? A profit of exactly 200% what they put in per cycle.

Now, remember the fundamental differences. A business does not require the employees to put money into anything. They are paid cash for the work that they do. There are no promisses or guarantees, or even expectations when buying a business that a profit will be made. It is desired when you buy an ice cream truck that you will make money, however, it is dependent on hard work and selling in the right area.

> You purchase advertising upon which a generous commission is paid.

Isnt the commission 3% Is that really generous? Does anybody think it is?

advertising: the business of drawing public attention to goods and services

The key to most advertising definitions is public attention. Well ymmss is a private business. The ad forums are not public but private. Also, its usually a good or service that is being sold. What percent of goods and services are being sold?

A more accurate definition of ymmss is sponsorship. I'll pay $500 to put my add in the highschool yearbook. The only people who will see the add will be those who buy the yearbooks.My ad could be sellign a product or service or congratulating somebody for graduating.

But because a majority of the people are not selling a product or service on the ad forums, and those that are are probably not making anything with their ads, and people are dumping their EPCs on auction, it can only be assumed that the memberbase is so interested in doubling their money they are sponsoring ymmss by taking out ad space.

> It says a Ponzi Scheme cultivates greed and "perpetuates itself using envy".

> YMMSS depends on cooperation, teamwork and a commitment to civil and supportive community. Envy and greed have no place here.

Greed is a desire to obtain more money or material possessions or bodily satisfaction than one is considered to need

I consider need, in this sence, the amount of earnings per job done. A laywer making $5million a year is not greedy because of the work that he does. But thinking that 26 hours worth of "work
is worth an income of $100,000, even though it is completely unskilled and there is no demand for said work is greedy.

envy is a feeling of grudging admiration and desire to have something possessed by another

So, do you not think that the new members are not envious of the people who are making money there?

How exactly does ymmss depen on cooperation, teamwork, and a commitment to civil and supportive community? Does the team of ymmss members get togther around a computer to read some birthday wishes that somebody paid $25,000 to send out?

> It says a Ponzi Scheme encourages more and more investment.

> YMMSS's generous commissions make it impossible, over time, to outstrip income with added ad purchases. In point of fact YMMSS encourages mainly entry with a $10 purchase, from which one can develop a good income.

Wait...wanting people to invest 100% of their money from $10 - $160, and 50% after $320 is not wanting more and more investment? That is a pretty steep amount to ask people to reinvest.

> It says Ponzi Schemes require "incoming investment money" to pay earlier investors.

> All or half of YMMSS members' commissions recycle, each and every processing. This the basis of our system. YMMSS uses a portion of its income to develop added sources of income but this is in the nature of diversification in order to maintain a capacity to operate when business is good and when it is not. YMMSS requires consistent purchasesof its advertising product to succeed and naturally, like all business, thrives as it grows.

The system takes out 25% and only returns 10%. If thats all that it takes to not be classified as a ponzi, than I will do the same thing, set up dummy corporations, and i will just keep the 15% profit. Acutally, days are pretty bad right now where people are not buying into the lies as much anymore, and none of these outside sourses have helped.

> A further aspect of YMMSS is its business plan which assumes a confluence between growing membership and viability as a seller of retail advertising which meembership reads pr views as part of its obligation.

There is no retail advertising, nor is there any proof that anybody is actually reading any ads. There are no tests or anything to show that somebody just doesnt stop by a few random pages for 5 minutes each page while they do something else.

> This can hardly be seen as "incoming investment money". It is much more understandable as a logical outgrowth of building an ever-larger membership whose purpose is to make the sale of advertising to retail marketers an attractive proposition. One has little doubt that such a business plan will be widely imitated over time.

Why can it hardly be seen that way because you say so? I still dont see what makes this so attractive to advertisers. If it was so attractive it would have been done 10 years ago when the internet was really starting to become what it is today. Unfortunately, the demographics of ymmss sucks so much that I cannot see why a single advertiser would want to spend money.There is no specific age group, educational bracket, house size, net worth, occupation, religion, shopping habits, etc. When advertisers advertise they aim towards a certain segment of the population and they set their ads so that those people they are targeting will receive the message and perhap act on it. I could go in several pages on this one topic, and maybe I will another time.

> It says in Ponzi Schemes "at some point ... the operators disappear taking all of the capital amassed with them."

> Kim Inman and his family have been vetted in every possible way and have come up with an A+ rating. Kim has suffered criticism for mis-stating time goals on forthcoming enhancements and that has had some justification. His record on the score of caring for the good of all members and for exceptional generosity on the financial front has never been questioned.

Lets run some quick numbers. Kimmy takes out 25% on each sale, and only 1/3 of the money paid out is actually withdrawn, according to your numbers. Thats a pretty good chunck of change. But the key words is "at some point". Tell me, can u predict the future? How do you know kimmy wont run away to his resort that isnt making a dime? exceptional generosity on the financial front...he has pocketed around $25million...when was he generous? Now its being questioned, so now I can call you a liar.

> It says Ponzi Schemes offer larger returns for larger expenditures.

> YMMSS offers the same return for any amount spent on its advertising product. 100% commission every cycle. Whether one spends $10 of $100,000 on EPCs, the gain is exactly the same. And no one is encourage anyone to spend at any particular level.

Charles could double your money in 90 days. Sound familiar? The promissiory notes ranged from $10 to $50,000. That $10 sounds awfully familiar. What was the average investment? Hmmm...$300. I wonder if it was closer to $320?

What was the final verdict on charles?
http://home.nycap.rr.com/useless/ponzi/

An estimated 40,000 people had entrusted an estimated fifteen million dollars (about $140 million in U.S. funds today) in Ponzi’s scheme


40,000 people - will ymmss get up to 40,000 people? That will probably be the max, if they make it that long. I personally dont think they will get 30,000 people. Will that take in $140 million? Possibly. Any more? Most likely not. lets see how close ymmss makes it to what charles did. It seems they are running the same track with the same results.

> It says Ponzi Schemes disguise their actual operations.

> YMMSS is transparent. Members are informed of all decisions and business operations with the exception of some involvements which are regarded as proprietary, though they are ethical, moral and legal. An example might be involvement in a short term financial instrument.

Actually the members dont know anything about outside revenues, nobody knows what is being added. That $300k doesnt have a name on it. The true amount of money paid out is not known. What kimmy is doing with his money he takes out is not know. It is not known why a failing resort was purchased. CT is misrepresented. Payouts is misrepresented. There is no paper trail for outside income sources. The forums are highly censored to delete anything they dont want you to read. The only thing that is trasnsparent about ymmss is people who know know how much the members go out of their way to lie so that maybe they will cycle again.

> Kim inman is actually most forthcoming about all but a handful of YMMSS activities on the admin side. Feedback and a remarkable degree of open communication with the head of YMMSS are built into our system.

> The only things that he is not forthcoming about is the things that actually matter. The rest...well...He did say that by 150 days the CT will start dropping.

> Since this was written, the most conspicuous development has been the addition of members to the general leadership of YMMSS. This includes staff and volunteers who play key roles. Our Discussion Forums are related to this development, exemplifying both the concept opf layered leadership and openness to all views.

> It says, "The heart of a Ponzi Scheme [is] using the money of late investors to pay the profits of the early ones, and when the supply of investors runs out it all collapses."

> That is like saying that McDonald's relies on food purchases to ensure that stockholders are paid. There is a huge difference between being insolvent without the addition of new money and depending on a degree of growth and participation. The latter is a requirement of all businesses.

What does McDonalds have to do with anything? They are selling a product. a ponzi is just exchanging money from one hand to the next.

> In addition in YMMSS the recycling of more than half of commission payments within the system is the very opposite of using all money that comes in to pay out to members. That would be a recipe for suicide. The reason YMMSS works is that it is a continually cycling system in which members themselves increase their participation and, as they prosper, extend a helping hand so thatother members can also prosper.

Actually, this "recycling" only hurts most members because the lines get longer and longer and longer. My $320 position that recycled is such an insignificient amount that it is not noticable at all. And, like the transparency of ymmss, there is no case studies with actual figures determing how much of a help it is.

> Finally, it says: "One simple rule ... If you cannot understand where the profits are coming from, then it is probably a scam."

> Well, we DO understand.

> Profits in YMMSS are the product of 100% and 50% recycling of commissions, of member participation, of member patience company transparency. Plus, continued creation of added value - new income streams from complementary businesses and the likely growth and success of our retail ad business.

There you just said it...it comes from members. A ponzi. Dont belive yourself? Let me quote your success notes on page 9/54.


The Teamwork of all Members: When we are paid, we are paying each other. Every penny I get, or you get, is money that members have put into the system. When we get paid we pay others as well


Ponzi?

---

Edited part: included the final stats from charles ponzi how many members he had and how much he took in.

[Shoes]

Isnt the commission 3% Is that really generous? Does anybody think it is?

Hi

That statement alone shows that you are not really acquainted with the way YMMSS works are you?

I find it odd that you write huge critiques but lack basic knowledge.

Shug

[Dreamer]

It was written at 5 o clock in the morning. Would you correct me please?

I admit i dont know everything. I bet I probably got the termonology messed up?

[papabear]

It was written at 5 o clock in the morning. Would you correct me please?

I admit i dont know everything. I bet I probably got the termonology messed up?

Hey Dreamer,

I think what Shoes means is that you can actually "earn" additional "commissions" if you sell these worthless epc's to retail suckers, because you can sell them at the retail price and pocket a certain percentage - higher than 3% - as you rip people off. I can't remember the actual percentage, because I don't care, and I don't waste much time on the YMMSS site these days. Once a week or so, for about 20 minutes, is all I can stomach.

Another thing you can do is buy your worthless epc's at the affiliate "wholesale" cost, and then try to sell them to some hapless person or business - you know, like your family, friends, neighbors, or local business owners - at a higher price, and laugh as you carry the difference all the way to the bank.

So, yes, you can make more than 3% commission, if you're unscrupulous or blind enough to sell epc's to someone else.

[Shoes]

Hey Dreamer,

I think what Shoes means is that you can actually "earn" additional "commissions" if you sell these worthless epc's to retail suckers, because you can sell them at the retail price and pocket a certain percentage - higher than 3% - as you rip people off. I can't remember the actual percentage, because I don't care, and I don't waste much time on the YMMSS site these days. Once a week or so, for about 20 minutes, is all I can stomach.

Another thing you can do is buy your worthless epc's at the affiliate "wholesale" cost, and then try to sell them to some hapless person or business - you know, like your family, friends, neighbors, or local business owners - at a higher price, and laugh as you carry the difference all the way to the bank.

So, yes, you can make more than 3% commission, if you're unscrupulous or blind enough to sell epc's to someone else.

Yet another ill-informed student.

Maybe there should be an entry exam for these forums! At least have half a clue what you are criticising before opening your gob.

And dont presume to tell people what I mean.

Shug



Shug

[Dreamer]

Actually, i think your the most ill informed person here since you are unable to back up a word that you say. While I and others may speculate with logic, you just have nothing to back up any of your hit and run posts.

So, we can only assume that you dont know anything and that your whole goal here is to pretend like you know anything.

I'm sure everybody here will welcome your opinions even if your pro-whatever, however, you are doing no good for your cause, and like other people before you, you are actually worsening your cause by showing us what members are like.

So, why not take some time out and post something of substance every once in awhile?

[surfer]

Shoes neglected to mention that Dreamer was
at least partially accurate.

The 3% is a commission paid for the positions
that are bought by new recruits into the ponzi.
It's not paid on the first purchase, but on any
subsequent purchases and any repurchases
made during cycling.

The "commission" that most people are referring
to is the 100% commission you get back from
your EPC purchases. Of course, the percentage
is actually infinite since there is no cap. That's
one of the fatal flaws of Kim Inman's "business".

Name any other product/service in the world that
pays more in commission's than the purchase price.
It doesn't exist.

The only comparable thing are financial investments,
which YMMSS claims it is not. However, it looks more
and more like that is exactly what it is.

[Dreamer]

even though your paying like 10,000x value, the return on E-books pays a good return...if u ever cycle.

At least with an e-Book, you can read something...oh wait, you hafta read something when u purchase epcs.

I wonder if anybody sells Ebooks with their epcs?

[papabear]

Yet another ill-informed student.

Maybe there should be an entry exam for these forums! At least have half a clue what you are criticising before opening your gob.

And dont presume to tell people what I mean.

Shug



Shug

Nice try, Shug, but anyone who has researched the forums and listened to a few conference calls should know the "commissions" I referred to are indeed some of the options Kim & co. have outlined for making money with YMMSS. If you honestly don't realize that, you are the ill-informed student, and you should do your homework.

Surfer mentioned the most standard way YMMSS affiliates earn "commissions". Are you going to say he is wrong as well?

As for presuming, I'll presume whatever I wish, and I'll write whatever I wish. I PRESUME you will as well. Or don't you believe in free speech?

Going forward, if you want people to fully understand what you mean, why don't you give us some substance rather than just haughty insults?

[Shoes]

3% was referred to as commission for EPC's

[Shoes]

You purchase advertising upon which a generous commission is paid.

Isnt the commission 3% Is that really generous? Does anybody think it is?

advertising: the business of drawing public attention to goods and services

I was pointing out that this person, who others take seriously, has no clue whatever about what commissions are paid and why.

Shug

[surfer]

I've never taken Dreamer seriously. :eek:

Perhaps instead of all the name calling and
pot shots you insist on taking, you should
attempt to educate if you have anything
at all to contribute.

You know, things like letting Dreamer know
what the commission % was since he phrased
it as a bit of a question.

Or perhaps letting people know that Dreamer
mentioned it being a completely private site
but it looks like they are heading towards
making the site more public, something I
view as a good move.

You obviously have no argument against the
math, so you could at least attempt to
contribute something for people doing their
DD to read.

Or you can continue to just be a troll, and
continue to act in a manner that you would
probably condemn people for doing on the
YMForums.

Meanwhile, we'll continue to wait and wait
for anyone in YMMSS to prove that member
money can be doubled every 60-90 days
over a long term basis as "designed". lol

[Dreamer]

I feel sorry for anybody who has ever taken me seriously. Why should anybody? I dont claim to have any insider information. I post what my opinions are looking from the outside. And like all the other members here, I am also learning. People have correct my opinions plenty of times and shared with me the truth, or at least how they perceive it. Thats the benefit of this forum.

Most of my postings is to try to start a dialogue with various subjects. And even though I was wrong about the 3%, without any of your help, maybe somebody else besides me learned something. Isnt that the point?

Oh, I"m sorry. I know you dont understand what I'm talking about, since all you seem to understnad is insultings.

Your mother smells of alderberries.

[Dreamer]

But, i feel vindicated, that the person who has nothing of substance to say here and whos only purpose is childish name calling to further show the maturity of ymmss suporters, has not been able to insult any of my other points that I showed just how silly estos is.

1 point out of what...like 20? And how relevant is that one point regarding commissions? Not relevant at all. Almost as relevant as somebody who wanted to insult my postings because of spelling errors. The sad thing was that person had much more spelling errors than me (not sure if it was this forum or not).

[concerned]

Yet another ill-informed student.

Maybe there should be an entry exam for these forums! At least have half a clue what you are criticising before opening your gob.



If our members are so ill-informed, why don't you prove your superior knowledge and educate us? Aren't you aware that every time we hear you say we don't know what we are talking about, we are also expecting you to tell us what is wrong? You are right about the entrance exam. We need to find a way to weed people like you out that are constantly insulting other people. I believe you have been warned at least once about insults. Consider this one another one.

And dont presume to tell people what I mean.

We would't have to tell people what you mean if you just exlained yourself in the first place.

[Dreamer]

As I said in a previous thread, we welcome your opinions and your knowledge here, even if we dont agree with them. You wont be banned because you are a supporter of ymmss. I think most of us would actually appreciate some info you might possess.

But as it stands right now, you should have ur acct deleted over at ymmss becuase you are bringing them down so much yourself. Its fine to call me ignorant when i'm wrong. And if any mods want to give you a warning for that I will stand up for you if your comment has anything of all of any substance.

Thats the difference here and ymmss. ymmss will delete my posts when I say that charles ponzi probablay didnt originally want to scam people. Heck, I never mentioned that kimmy probably set out to scam people.

[ycchen]

Thats the difference here and ymmss. ymmss will delete my posts when I say that charles ponzi probablay didnt originally want to scam people. Heck, I never mentioned that kimmy probably set out to scam people.

I am not sure about the real intention of Charles Ponzi since he was the pioneer so he might have good intention. Just may be.

As for Kimmy, I disagree with somewhat neutral Dreamer..:D. When Kim designed YMMSS to cycle forever in 60-90 days, his only intention is to scam people!

How to scam is an art, not maths. It is not easy at all.

The standard goal of any ponzi/pyramid scheme is to build your own army of followers (usually the early birds, or insiders) and promoters, let them advertise for you to recruit new members. They are million way to do it and many have proven unsuccessful. Kim Inman is just like any conman, he knows exactly what his goal is (i.e. to scam), and the only problem he need to solve is HOW! He is guilty from the first day.

After he has his "scam model" (not business model), the only thing that is unknown is whether his carefully designed ponzi will take off the ground -- i.e. getting a critical mass and ignite a chain-reaction.

All ponzi designers are waiting for his/her day to come (critical mass and chain reaction) but they know the risk that it might not work. Most ponzis fail and only a few manage to get big. YMMSS is a lucky one to beat their competitors and take off the ground. Thus, Kim and Bryan (PIPS owner) should all be awared the best conman award of the year if there is such award.

After the ponzi get off the ground, what the con artist and his/her gang need to do is to "manage" it well with lies and excuses, so the donation will continue to roll in.

It is all about managing lies and excuses. The only thing they need to work on is to invent yet another "more convincing" excuses.

If Kim Inman would ever write his own story (in the prison cell, hopefully), his followers will be shocked by amount of lies that were thrown to them. :shake:

[ComplexKid]

Sadly, ycchen, I fear even if he were in a prison cell the true believers would be queueing up for the time he got out and his next ponzi. William Louden did that with Pegasus/Stargame at least three times (think he's in gaol again now), and Blake Prater, formerly of MPact/Wellspring had seven priors for financial swindles, had gone walkies from prison, and had three more outstandings when he opened his Dealmaker's Club.

They still haven't traced all the money down from that and SharedProfit, but I've a feeling Kim is another one like those--and that's why YM has hung on for so long. Hey, even Charles Ponzi had fans when he was in prison, and pulled quite a few more cons after he got out :(

[sisco50]

Yes, and Charles Ponzi died a pauper. However, there is a distinct difference between a conman and someone that started out with good intentions, but a bad business model.

It is a very bold statement to say that Kim Inman set out to scam from the get go! How can one know this? I can understand someone believing this, as in having an opinion, but to state this as a fact is rather silly. If one had to back that statement up with proof, how would one do that? :)

[ycchen]

YMMSS promises everyone will cycle forever, with a maximum of 90 days = 400%-1600% profit rate (depending on the withdraw/reinvestment ratio).

Can you name a company in our human history that could garantee such a high return of investment ,RISKFREE and sustain for more than 5 years?

Any company that promise a riskfree return of more than 200% APR knows exactly what they are doing, i.e. to scam! You should know better than I do about this common sense since you are running a real business, isn't it?

No innocent business person would design a business plan in this way in human history, except scammer. You can easily prove me wrong with just one example in our human history. :)

[sisco50]

YMMSS promises everyone will cycle forever, with a maximum of 90 days = 400%-1600% profit rate (depending on the withdraw/reinvestment ratio).

Can you name a company in our human history that could garantee such a high return of investment ,RISKFREE and sustain for more than 5 years?

Any company that promise a riskfree return of more than 200% APR knows exactly what they are doing, i.e. to scam! You should know better than I do about this common sense since you are running a real business, isn't it?

No innocent business person would design a business plan in this way in human history, except scammer. You can easily prove me wrong with just one example in our human history. :)

LOL There we go again with the bold statements and no way to prove them. No one is trying to prove anyone wrong; just asking a simple question!

"If one had to back that statement up with proof, how would one do that? "

The question remains. I would think that someone willing to make those statements would know how to prove them. That is; if it can be proven! :)

[surfer]

I don't know sisco50. It seems the two choices
would be scammer or delusional when creating an
unrealistic compensation plan like Kim Inman has.

Which do you think?

[ycchen]

I don't know why I bother to react to your non-issue comment in the first place, sisco50. May be I am really bored. :)

Okay, let's get back to the topic. This thread is about Kim's right hand man -- estos.

BTW, anyone has any video clips or pictures of this super promoter?

[surfer]

Dreamer and his spelling :nono:

There is no "s" at the end of esto. :)

His main website is http://onlinebizplanner.com/
and you can find a photo there.

[sisco50]

I don't know why I bother to react to your non-issue comment in the first place, sisco50. May be I am really bored. :)

Okay, let's get back to the topic. This thread is about Kim's right hand man -- estos.

BTW, anyone has any video clips or pictures of this super promoter?

LOL Simple. According to you, all my comments are non-issue. But then what would you expect from a matrix-neutral person? :) In the mean time, the real issue is that you totally ignored the question even after admitting you were bored. A real answer would have given a bored person something to do! No? :)

Yes, please do get back to the topic. Shame on me for getting you side-tracked by asking a question. :)

[Dreamer]

Hey mods, can somebody pls delete this thread? Obviously I dont know what I'm talking about, thanks to surfer, pointing out my spelling abilities. Since there is no estos, i"m not sure who I was responding to.

Its impossible to prove one way or another somebodys intentions. Even with written "proof", Its still not perfect, because whatever was written could have been written in jest. We can come to a pretty good conclusion, but even so, all the "facts" are our interpretation of them.

1. Kimmy was involved in MLM before. Good or bad? Well, MLM is typically not illegial, since a product is being sold. I was suckered into a couple of them years and years ago before I knew better. What is the downside to MLM? It doesnt work for most people.

I was told if I sell 40 products a day for 3 straight days, I would move up to the next level, which was just a supervisor over a group of 4 people. I would get some of their profit, as you move up you make more and more money from more and more people. Well, i could only sell 15 - 25 products a day. So, what did I do? I purchased the rest, never got promoted, and lost my job soon because I didnt have a drivers license (I wonder if they try to prevent people from advancing). All in all, I made maybe $50, but I probably spent $100 on useless product that I threw away later, so I lost money those couple of weeks.

So, back to fact 1, did kimmy want to start up a business so that everybody would win, like he claims, or so that he could be the very top of the ladder, since he wasnt there at his mlm? Well, i guess he wanted a bigger portion of the pie, since he decided that he was going to take 25% of every purchase...thats a hell of an amount of money. But, maybe he was going to really try to save the world.

2. He chooses a ponzi system. The difference between legal and illegial MLMs is there is a product being sold. I doubt that anybody considers EPCs a product. But we know he didnt base his system off a mlm because he "promises" (more on that later) double your money in 90 days. MLMs dont make such a promise, either explicitly or implicity. Investment houses dont. No legit and legal entity can make a promise like that because they cannot predict the future. Now, you can buy CDs and doulbe your money legally over 20 years, and they can get away with that, because even despite the current market conditions they are lending out your money to make money.

Any business, even the original ponzi, that can make you money makes money by using ur money to make more money for the business and pass it along to you. Stocks and bonds are bought and sold on market, banks lend out money, and even charles had his idea of stamps. But, is kimmy doing anythign with the money to make money? He bought a resot that isnt making money. He bought servers that claims to be buggy. He is not investing it, or anything. But, thats just speculation on my part, since anything of any value that shows ymmss being posibly legit is hidden from the members as confidental info.

Now why would somebody who is honest use a dishonest system to build something that is honest? Well, if he is conning people, its because he knows being on top of the food chain makes the most money. But, it looks like he has tried to fix what the problem of a ponzi is...after a certain point (about where we are at now, the ponzi collapses because there isnt enough new memberships. So, what if we can get an outside source to continue to pay?

Sounds good...but, remember...he is still promissing to double the money. Wait, I know that was never a guarantee, but when you say "double your money 60-90 days" while not an explicit promise, it is implied that you will double your money in that time frame. But, if he is going to get outside sourses to continue to pay, how will he get them to constantly double their payouts, no matter who he uses? And, why does it have to be double? I would love to make back 10% of an investment in 90 days or whatever...the CT would still probably be at 90 days if the payout was much lower than double.

But, his system had no correction to it. So, when he was devising his master system, how did he think he would sustain it? After all, he needs to sustain it for the original duration to get the additional sourses to pay the bottom people.

So its this one point that he seems to ignore that would suggest that he wasnt trying to save the world, but fatten his own pockets. Again, just speculation.

3. What product does he choose? Advertising. Well, thats pretty useless. Common people dont need to advertise anything. At least with eBooks you have something to read. Why not offer a product or service that would actually change peoples lives, if you are trying to do that? A vitamin, i dont know. Maybe a write anywhere pen...something of some value so that people will get somethign for their purchase. Again, this suggests that he was trying to con people. He did not find the next generation of advertising. What a lie. I dont think he even has a basic concept of advertising to even say that this will work. It sounds like he thinks people are so stupid that they believe him because they dont know, and he can throw around big numbers and big names like he does. He always does that. Microsoft, yahoo, ebay, god. I"m waiting for the Pope, Lucifer, hes already done McDonalds, did he talk about Walmart or 7-11 yet?

4. No refund policy. Well, all businesses have their own policy. Ours was pretty strict, with receipt (though we never gave out recepts), and most things could not be returned or exchanged period. Talk to the owner. But, I remember buying computer games from a store that had a 30 day money back guarantee. If the game sucks, after you play it, they'll refund the total amount. I bought my games from them, and even kept the crappy ones, cuz I know they stand beind their product. But kimmy doesnt. The truth of the matter is he can set aside 1% of the 25% that he steals for the purpose of refunds, and will probably never have that many people requesting them. Or once a refund is requested, their refund is sent to the front of the line to process before payouts.

Or even have an option for 10% of the purchase price per EPC, would protect you for refunds. Within 1 week 100% back, within a month 90% back, 60 days 75% 90 or more days 50% back. Again, that fund would probably neverbe touched.

Does having a no refund policy mean its a scam? Nah. But it does show that the business is more interested in keeping your money than keeping you as a customer.

Well, I'm sure i had other thought provoking thoughts regarding his intentions, however, i've bored myself enough tonight.

[Dreamer]

Im not going to put words in ychens mouth, but I think why his intentions is a non-issue because it cannot be proven one way or another, and it ultimately doesnt matter what the intentions are, but what matters is what is being done now and today.

And sisco, im sure you know i get pissed off at you sometimes, probably as much as you might have gotten pissed off at me, but i appreciate your comments cuz it is more nutreal, and better hearing a differnt PoV than just the same ole crap we always talk about just to see ourselves talk.

[sisco50]

Im not going to put words in ychens mouth, but I think why his intentions is a non-issue because it cannot be proven one way or another, and it ultimately doesnt matter what the intentions are, but what matters is what is being done now and today.

And sisco, im sure you know i get pissed off at you sometimes, probably as much as you might have gotten pissed off at me, but i appreciate your comments cuz it is more nutreal, and better hearing a differnt PoV than just the same ole crap we always talk about just to see ourselves talk.

Thanks for taking notice. :) My point of view is just that! A point of view! I try my best to not state things as fact that I know I can't prove one way or the other. Some people try to come off as some sort of expert with their facts and figures and do not see that in reality they are coming off as a clown. This downgrades their credibility and in turn doesn't do much for the site. If a question regarding how does one prove something that is said here is considered a non-issue, then there are a lot of people wasting their time here. Most people know the difference between speculation and fact. In my way of thinking, facts can be proven. If one boldly states something as fact that we all know can't be proven, it can't be a fact. It must be speculation, opinion, gut feeling, etc... It should be stated as such and not as a fact that can not be proven.

I'll get off my soapbox for now and you posters can get back to the topic of this thread. It's strange how discussing a non-issue can take up so much space! Maybe there was a relevant issue there all along? :) But not thread specific!

[Salsa]

YMMSS promises everyone will cycle forever, with a maximum of 90 days = 400%-1600% profit rate (depending on the withdraw/reinvestment ratio).

Can you name a company in our human history that could guarantee such a high return of investment ,RISK FREE and sustain for more than 5 years?

Any company that promise a risk free return of more than 200% APR knows exactly what they are doing, i.e. to scam! You should know better than I do about this common sense since you are running a real business, isn't it?

No innocent business person would design a business plan in this way in human history, except scammer. You can easily prove me wrong with just one example in our human history. :)
I 100% agree with ycchen on this. The proof is in the intricacy of the scheme and how well it has done exactly what it was designed to do. We know that YMMSS cannot indefinitely double members' money--it's claimed purpose. And to imagine that it is merely some unfortunate accident is as likely as the proverbial million monkeys typing for a million years before one of them accidentally produces a perfect copy of War and Peace.

YMMSS has such a sophisticated design for the singular purpose of siphoning other peoples' money into Kim's pockets that it is not possible for Kim merely to be a millionth monkey. That leaves no reasonable doubt that Kim planned for YMMSS to do what it has done from the beginning.

The idea that one cannot prove anothers intentions is nonsense. Who will deny that an archeologist can look at flint arrowheads that were made 5,000 years ago and correctly deduce that the inhabitants of that place and era used bows and arrows? With further evidence, they know that the makers' purpose for certain designs was to hunt certain game, etc.--all without ever talking to the long-dead craftsmen. Much more overwhelming evidence with regard to the design of YMMSS makes Kim's intentions amply clear. Conclusive evidence is all around you!

Also, this is absolutely not a non-issue. The conclusion leads us to see whether there is a man or a monkey at the helm of YMMSS--which is important information. And any contradiction from the likes of those who would deny the possibility of this knowledge is NULL from the outset, as they have already admitted that they do not have the capacity to prove such things one way or the other.

As for esto (in some effort to stay on topic), I'm not so certain about him. In the beginning, I took him for simply a "lucky" early believer. The longer he's hung in there with his excuses for YMMSS, however, the worse it's made him appear.

Salsa
____________________

[Dreamer]

Its possible to deduce or conclue what something is when we have a physical object or spesaman to analyze. Knowing about the history of the peoples and history in general we can learn alot from artifacts.

However, in that case there is an actual physical item thre that we can touch, feel, look at, whatever we need to do.

Trying to figure out somebodys intention is impossbile because it is all retrospective.

What if charles set out to scam people, but at the very end he did buy the stamps and did double everybodys money as advertised? His intention (from this argument) was that he wanted to scam people and, as a last resort actually tried the buy and sell stamps just to cover his own hide. If that happened I doubt it would be call a ponzi anymore.

And much the same way the most well intentioned person could get suckered into believing a line and start a system that is a scam, but he, and nobody else realizes it until too late.

Its similiar to saying that people who fal victim to scams are just stupid, they should know better.

And, that arrowhead, it ultimately may just be a good gues that it was used for a bow and arrow. However, maybe it was made by somebody trying to make a new eating utencil and trying to make a quick buck, or at least barter it for stuff.

And ultimately sisco makes a good point. Even if all the arrows point to that 99% likiness that he was meaning to scam people from the getgo, there is ultimately no proof. And, while this is a forum, and honestly I think most people here realize anything posted is opinion and not fact...

Ahh forget it. I'm going to have lunch using my new invention that I got the idea from looking at a bow and arrow arrowhead.

[Salsa]

Dreamer,

You want something physical? What about all the dollars that are in Kim's pockets instead of members', and the physical chain of events that got them there?

As for Charles Ponzi, one of the things that undid him was a postal servant's observation that only something like 11,000 of the stamps were printed per year, while Ponzi claimed to be trading them by the millions.

I accept that you do not know Kim's intentions with YMMSS--or Ponzi's with his scam--but simply because you do not know something does not mean that no one else does.

Salsa
_____________

[Dreamer]

Ok...let me make this clear so that anybody reading does understnad me correctly.

Based on the facts, and my interpretation of them and based on how he is running ymms and continues to run it, based on the promises that never amounted to anything, and the fact that everything is hidden even though he pretends to be open and honest during calls, based on all this information, I believe 100% that his intention was to be at the top of the pyramid and make alot of money at the expense of everybody.

Besides the points that I alredy mentioned, here are a few moe.

1. the operation in in beliz to avoid a US lawsuit.
2. The dollar amount is in US dollars not beliz dollars.
3. Any outside revenues that come in are not told to members or given record to how much was put in and by whom.
4. Despite claims of supporters saying that its not a ponzi because there is outside revenues which equal about 10% and kimmy takes out 25%, it is obvious that is an illegial ponzi, and he pretends to care about the law when somebody asks him to require everybody to fill out the survey or be delted, and he is worried about the legal ramifacations of it.
5. I'm not even sure he has a business license.
6. He requires SSN numbers when there is too much internet identity theft out there.
7. Any mention of investment is blocked in the forums because he knows that he probably has to get an investment license also and be bonded, or whatever is required.
8. And finally (for now) he bases this whole model of the business under the premise that someday somebody will pay the bottom half of the system. However, I doubt that he did any research to see if the membership base he was hoping to build would be in demand at all.

So, i honestly believe his intention was to make a long term ponzi that might still pay after 5 years, and he is running the business knowing full well that it is illegial, but he has enough supporters that have a vested interst in the success...*ahem* I eam in new donors to pay their current positions that will support kimmy to the end.

Is this fact? No speculation. I will leave the fact finding to the court of law and continue to read speculation and opinions on forums such as this.

[Darius]

Some interesting points - but




1. the operation in in beliz to avoid a US lawsuit.

What about red tape - almost impossible to operate in the US without getting hammered from all angles. Life is simpler in Belize.



2. The dollar amount is in US dollars not beliz dollars.

The Belize dollar has identical value to the USA - always.




3. Any outside revenues that come in are not told to members or given record to how much was put in and by whom.

Not true - many are, some are protected for privacy of the other parties.



4. Despite claims of supporters saying that its not a ponzi because there is outside revenues which equal about 10% and kimmy takes out 25%, it is obvious that is an illegial ponzi, and he pretends to care about the law when somebody asks him to require everybody to fill out the survey or be delted, and he is worried about the legal ramifacations of it.

Actually, on current payouts - 40% is closer.

5. I'm not even sure he has a business license.

Ask him.



6. He requires SSN numbers when there is too much internet identity theft out there.

USA members are IBO's and require to do this.



7. Any mention of investment is blocked in the forums because he knows that he probably has to get an investment license also and be bonded, or whatever is required.

It's an advertising business!



8. And finally (for now) he bases this whole model of the business under the premise that someday somebody will pay the bottom half of the system. However, I doubt that he did any research to see if the membership base he was hoping to build would be in demand at all.

Im not sure what your point is there.

So, i honestly believe his intention was to make a long term ponzi that might still pay after 5 years, and he is running the business knowing full well that it is illegial, but he has enough supporters that have a vested interst in the success...*ahem* I eam in new donors to pay their current positions that will support kimmy to the end.

Since most of your previous points are spurious - this hold's no water at all.

[Dreamer]

Actually, if you do the math its closer to 10%. Can you back up your 40% figure again or are you just going to ignroe it once again?


> What about red tape - almost impossible to operate in the US without getting hammered from all angles. Life is simpler in Belize.

Exactly. Scam

> The Belize dollar has identical value to the USA - always.

Still, its in US dollars not belize dollars. If it was in beliz it should have beliz dollars even if it is 100% us dollars. I do not conduct business in the states with belize dollars.

> Not true - many are, some are protected for privacy of the other parties.

Please proide ANY transactions, where they came from and how much the amount was for, and why it was paid.

> Actually, on current payouts - 40% is closer.

Please provide any evidence that its 40% because running the numbers is 10%.

> Ask him.

Places of business have their business license clearly posted for all to see. I'm sure online businesses also if indeed they are a business.

> USA members are IBO's and require to do this.

There should be no requirement since a wage is not paid and there are no services rendered.

> It's an advertising business!

Than why are people entering the business expecting a 90 day payout?

> Im not sure what your point is there.

My point is he did not do any fundamental research into a business that he was hoping would succeed. He claims he spent a year going thru spreadsheets, and the answer just came to him. So, It came to him and he didnt do any DD to find out if any advertiser would actually want to give him money. That was the whole point to his business, right? To get advertisers...where is his research that suggests that it will work?

> Since most of your previous points are spurious - this hold's no water at all.

Why not cuz you say so? Not good enough.

[Darius]

I never mentioned it before. ???

Weird.

Anyway, just on the NOW situation. Current payouts balanced with income from EPC's offset against current outside income = around 40%

D

[Darius]

> What about red tape - almost impossible to operate in the US without getting hammered from all angles. Life is simpler in Belize.

Exactly. Scam

So any company that operates outside the US is a scam? Thats a very poor arguement.

> The Belize dollar has identical value to the USA - always.

Still, its in US dollars not belize dollars. If it was in beliz it should have beliz dollars even if it is 100% us dollars. I do not conduct business in the states with belize dollars.

Just about every online and offline international company works with US dollars - that is standard practice - ask anyone in here.



Please proide ANY transactions, where they came from and how much the amount was for, and why it was paid.

How could I do that? Im just demonstrating that in business, companies are entitled to keep thier business private.

Would you tell me exactly where all your income comes from and provide me with documentary evidence. I would think not. Even if I came across them by accident, I would return them to you, un-read. That's ethical.

> Actually, on current payouts - 40% is closer.
Please provide any evidence that its 40% because running the numbers is 10%.

What numbers are you running then? They must be at least a year out of date.



There should be no requirement since a wage is not paid and there are no services rendered.

That shows a lack of knowledge - your just making this up.

> It's an advertising business!

Than why are people entering the business expecting a 90 day payout?

It's commission, for advertising and reading Ad's. It's easy to understand that.

> Im not sure what your point is there.

My point is he did not do any fundamental research into a business that he was hoping would succeed. He claims he spent a year going thru spreadsheets, and the answer just came to him. So, It came to him and he didnt do any DD to find out if any advertiser would actually want to give him money. That was the whole point to his business, right? To get advertisers...where is his research that suggests that it will work?

Where is YOUR research that it wont?

> Since most of your previous points are spurious - this hold's no water at all.

Why not cuz you say so? Not good enough.

No, because I refuted them, except the one that wasn't clear.

D

[Dreamer]

Anyway, just on the NOW situation. Current payouts balanced with income from EPC's offset against current outside income = around 40%

Please give details on your numbers instead of just saying anything. Where are the outside income sourses coming from, how much is put it, and what figure are you comparing the 40% to?


From conference minutes for 6-30-05

Q5: With long cycle times, will things come to a stand still because people are waiting on a reduction in cycle times before they purchase again?
A5: Barry: One of the great things about YMMSS is there won’t be an absolute standstill with this company because we have multiple income sources so even if people are holding back on purchasing, commission’s will still be paid out due to the other income sources. We are still putting in $35,000 per week and $300,000 per month and will continue to increase our outside income sources. Now if members stop purchasing, the cycle time will likely increase right now at a higher rate than if they were to continue purchasing like they always had planned to. But this business isn’t solely dependent on member purchases.

So, thats $440,000 per month. 40% would be $1.1million per month. June had a month The month of june did 2.1millions, and $440,000 represents 21%, which is still less than the 25% kimmy is taking out. However, can you provide any info where these $300,000 and $35,000 is coming from.

I find it hard to believe that this 21% quoted in the conference call that is filled with untruths, and pushing the truth as far as possible is less accurate than the 40% that you are claiming...they would be saying that everywhere if that was the truth.

[Dreamer]

> So any compnay that operates outside the US is a scam? Thats a very poor arguement.

I never made that argument, however, I will stand by when a us citizen takes a business offshore thats because they know it is not legit.

> Just about every online and offline international company works with US dollars - that is standard practice - ask anyone in here.

Sorry, I purchased items online and had to convert euros to US Dollars, AUD to USD, etc.

> How could I do that? Im just demonstrating that in business, companies are entitled to keep thier business private.

Its not good business practice to keep the business private when members are relying on the anwers. I know exactly where my 403B dollars are going. I wouldnt do it if I didnt know. It doesnt deserve to be private, because there is no reason why it should be private.

> Would you tell me exactly where all your income comes from and provide me with documentary evidence. I would think not. Even if I cam across them by accident, I
would rtuen them to you, un-read. That's ethical.

If you were relaying on me to make money for you, than yes. As an employee i knew where my boss was buying product, how much he was paying for it, markup, and everything. Actually the financials of most businesses are not secret, and are provided to the general public if they are traded on wallstreet. I can find out the financials to just about any business either by researching it online, contacting the CEO or whoever, or the busines owner themselves. will they tell me their markup? Probably not. But, I can get alot of info by asking because its not a secret.

There is nothing unethical about a business providing financial information and health.

> What numbers are you running then? They must be at least a year out of date.

Week old numbers

> That shows a lack of knowledge - your just making this up.

Nope

> It's commission, for advertising and reading Ad's. It's easy to understand that.

Its a ponzi.

> Where is YOUR research that it wont?

Time will tell. I did not create the business so I dont need proof. Hes done this for 3 years and cant find a single person who will advertise for $200 for him. Past is showing nobody is interested, and the future will also.

> No, because I refuted them, except the one that wasn't clear.

Havent refuted a thing. Heck, havent provided any facts whatsoever, or even opinions.

[Darius]

I never made that argument, however, I will stand by when a us citizen takes a business offshore thats because they know it is not legit.

That is pathetic. Really.

There are American copmanies operating in European Tax havens and also other offshore places - they are not scammers. Just saving money.

Your way off.

I amend my earlier claim at least for June, 22% is nearer the mark for outside income.

D

[Dreamer]

Where do you get your 40% figure? Do you have any evidence besides that s what they say that 22% is closer?

There are American copmanies operating in European Tax havens and also other offshore places - they are not scammers. Just saving money.

They are still american companies. The truth of the matter is that US law protects the consumers.

But, tell me...why was the business taken off shore?

[Darius]

Why is any business taken offshore? I cant speak for YMMSS can I. Besides they were in Belize when I joined.

A good and stable country by the way.

Why not Belize? Does there always have to be a sinister motive behind every move?

D

[Dreamer]

Well, why do you think it was done in belize instead of the states?

[Darius]

I have no idea. Maybe tax? Who knows.

D

[Dreamer]

Heres an idea:

http://fulltimeincomefromparttimework.com/faq.html

After reading horror stories of other businesses being closed down by USA government intervention under the Patriot Act, the owner Kim Inman wisely chose to relocate the business and now uses a secure offshore server in Belize. The members' business interests are better protected as a result.

Boy for somebody not a member of ymmss it appears i know more about ymmss than some mods...hmmm.

Anyways, can anybody provide for me a link of horror stories so I can tell campfire stories?

The truth is the patriot act (havent read it yet, but will read it next days off) was set up to try to prevent terrorism, etc. A legimitate advertising company should have no worries about the patriot act, because if their business was questioned by the US they can turn over their books to show that it is a legit business.

But, does ymmss have any books? I doubt it. Would it be under investigation? Possibly because it cannot provide any factual evidence about anything it is doing.

But if somebody can provide links for horror stories, I would be interested in reading them to see if any of them relate to ymmss business model.

[Dreamer]

7/6/05 payout was 96,067.20. $440,000/30 days in a month is about $15,000 a day, which is 15% outside sourses, if we are to believe that the $440,000 even exists. 15% is still alot less than the 25% being taken out of.

However, if you look at the payouts there doesnt seem to be a weekly $35k. The monthly $300k only seems to have 2 enteries.

[Darius]

Your great.

D

[Darius]

7/6/05 payout was 96,067.20. $440,000/30 days in a month is about $15,000 a day, which is 15% outside sourses, if we are to believe that the $440,000 even exists. 15% is still alot less than the 25% being taken out of.

However, if you look at the payouts there doesnt seem to be a weekly $35k. The monthly $300k only seems to have 2 enteries.

Way off again.

June was totalled at £1.9M 440K is > 22%

D

[Dreamer]

Even at 1.9M, thats only 23%, and my 22% prediction was closer than ur 22%.

06/01/05 223 89,045,606.98 47,672.40
07/01/05 250 91,130,071.28 120,906.00

Total (minus days payouts): 1,915,885.9
The average payout per day is: $63,862.86
There is evidence of a $300k payout on 6/15/05

The possible days of a $35k stream for:
Days 1-7: 2,3 or 7
Days 8-14: 8, 14
Days 15-21: 18, 19, 20, 21
Days 22 - 28: 22, 23, 34

For June there is no common dates that line up to suggest a $35k payout. Only the third is close with 3, 8 (-2), 18 (+1), 24

Now, July 1st is a possibility that this contiues, 5/27 fits, 5/20 doesnt, abd 5/13 might 5/6 doesn't.

So, at best, the $35k/week just started in June, but it still sems unlikely because its not on the same day of the week.

[surfer]

Thanks for your courteous participation Darius. :)

I think it's a relatively moot point, but the dollar in
Belize is worth about 50 cents.
Currency and Exchange Rate
The currency unit is the Belize dollar (Bz.$). The Belize dollar has been pegged to the U.S. dollar at a rate of Bz.$2.00 to U.S.$1.00 since May 1976.
from http://www.belize.gov.bz/belize/economy.html

I don't have a problem with people operating
offshore. However, the reasons YMMSS gave for
doing so are a definite red flag to me.

Kim obviously knew it was a very questionable
business model, at the very least.

Combine a questionable business model with the
fact that many scammers operate out of countries
like Belize, Malaysia, Panama, etc. and you have
a higher potential for being scammed.

I also take into account Kim's inconsistencies and
his apparent lack of knowledge about what's going
on in his own business.

The current "outside revenue" sources can not be
verified of course. And I mean the substantial
ones.

While I'm not saying this is the case, it is possible
that Kim has plopped some of his loot back into
the system the last two months in an attempt to
get people spending again. He would get a large
portion of it back anyway.

@ Dreamer. The $35K goes in on Fridays.

Of course, this $35K is one of Kim's inconsistencies.
For several months, Kim was telling everyone that
around $60K-$70K per week was being fed in to
the CPA. All of a sudden, we find out that he was
wrong and he really meant per month.

I could understand mistakenly saying per week once,
but repeatedly misspeaking about such an important
matter is a bit suspect.

It is especially suspect in its timing. The fact that
member purchases were dropping so drastically
would have eventually made it very obvious that
there was no $60-$70K per week coming in. It
was corrected down before it reached that point.

If you are a supporter of YMMSS Darius, we'll most
likely never agree on the many fundamental flaws in
the YMMSS business model.

The main question I have for anyone that supports
YMMSS is simply how do you think YMMSS can
possibly meet the demand of a doubler pay structure
in a 60 to 90 day cycle time over the long term?

Thanks again for at least attempting to debate
respectfully.

[Arzel]

Way off again.

June was totalled at £1.9M 440K is > 22%

D

This whole talk of % from outside revenue is pointless. You could take any point you wish and say that any % you wish represents the amount for that time period.

The point being, that unless you include all variables in context and all periods of time, the reference has no berring.

The fact is about $91 million is reported as being paid to the commissions payable. About $1 million has been accurately documented as coming from outside revenue (although even those sources have not been revealed so there is no proof that they are actualy outside revenue generated). A few thousand has been documented from various other business and link shares.

Anyway you cut it only about 2% of commissions paid has come from verifiable outside revenue (and the source of that is not really known, and could be part of Kim's 25% just made to look like outside revenue). Now there may be a little more out there that I am unaware of, and I would bet $100 that it is less than 5%, but I would bet a $1,000 that it was less than 10%, and a $1,000,000 that it was less than 20%.

If pro-YMMSS'ers think that by continualy saying that it is 40% or 22% or whatever they want will make it so, they are mistaken. I am no longer even going to give them 10%.

From this point forward, I am saying 95% of commissions paid has come from other members. With less than $2 million documented by Kim (who always makes sure to make a HUGE annoucement whenever a couple thousand outside $'s get thrown into the CPA), the odds that it is more is insurmountable.

[surfer]

I also take into account Kim's inconsistencies and
his apparent lack of knowledge about what's going
on in his own business.

The current "outside revenue" sources can not be
verified of course. And I mean the substantial
ones.

While I'm not saying this is the case, it is possible
that Kim has plopped some of his loot back into
the system the last two months in an attempt to
get people spending again. He would get a large
portion of it back anyway.

@ Dreamer. The $35K goes in on Fridays.

Of course, this $35K is one of Kim's inconsistencies.
For several months, Kim was telling everyone that
around $60K-$70K per week was being fed in to
the CPA. All of a sudden, we find out that he was
wrong and he really meant per month.

I could understand mistakenly saying per week once,
but repeatedly misspeaking about such an important
matter is a bit suspect.

It is especially suspect in its timing. The fact that
member purchases were dropping so drastically
would have eventually made it very obvious that
there was no $60-$70K per week coming in. It
was corrected down before it reached that point.

Today's processing stats give me the perfect
opportunity to follow up on my above statements
about the $35K that is allegedly going in per week.

The "payout" totals for today were $45,777.10.

The $35K is supposedly going in every Friday.
Well, unless the vast majority of positions were
on claim via website today, $35K in cash should
have "paid" more than $45K all by itself. That's
not even including any new purchases by the
affiliates over the last 2 days.

So, did the $35K not come in this week and does
anyone really even know for certain that it's been
coming in at all?

Just some random thoughts. :D

[Salsa]

surfer,

I agree that an additional $35K in the CPA should have paid much more in commissions than the $45K today, but it has looked to me like the "weekly" $35K has been more of a ten-day rather than a weekly addition. In June it appears that it was in the payouts for the 3rd, 13th and 24th. The first two of those were individually announced by Kim (and they appear to be reflected in the payout numbers), but the last one I only deduced.

So I'd look for a little bump from the $35K maybe in next Monday's or Wednesday's payout, not today. I'm not sure how to reconcile the ten day thing with Kim's claim that it would be weekly, on Fridays. Maybe he was talking about every seven business days, starting on some Friday? :rolleyes: :shake:

As for whether the "weekly" $35K and monthly $300K of outside revenue exists at all, once one has accepted that YMMSS was designed to scam people, it becomes highly improbable that there is any such outside revenue source. It's merely Kim dumping some of his earlier take back into the scam in order to promote a false sense of confidence in the victims and get them to invest more. This, of course, is also why the nature of the money's source must remain a deep secret.

Also, as you pointed out, surfer, Kim immediately gets practically all of this "outside revenue" back in his pocket--plus his take on any new donations. For example, by my calculations, when June's $300K was put in, it resulted in an $803K payout, of which Kim took at least $265K, real cash, from that payout alone--and he may have taken as much back as the entire $300K. For a breakdown of the calculations, see this Kim Inman (http://scam.com/showthread.php?p=63529#63529) post at scam.com.

Salsa
_______________

[Dreamer]

So, did the $35K not come in this week and does
anyone really even know for certain that it's been
coming in at all?

Thats why i wasted my time trying to figure out what day they came in. Thanks for the info on Fridays. I did not know this. Do you know why that $35k is supposed to be coming in at all? $35,000 a week is ALOT of money when he cant even get a single retailer to spend $200 to post an add. So, if they cant get even that, where is he getting $35k from?

As for your fridays:
7/8 - nope
7/1 - yes
6/24 - yes
6/17 - maybe
6/10 - no
6/03 - yes
5/27 - yes
5/20 - no
5/13 - no
5/06 - no

So, theyve been pretending to contribute for maybe 6 weeks?

And back to Azreal. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, Lets assume 2 $300,000 payments, and 6 $35,000 payments. So, all in all I think kimmy returned $800,000 back intot he pool pretending like somebody else did it.

If you gave ymmss $35,000 wouldnt you want your name plastared everywhere? Is there any evidence that there are any of these sources?

[surfer]

The $35K is something that allegedly starting
coming late last year.

Dreamer, it is not advertising revenue. It
is supposedly an outside investment stream

It is also the revenue source that Kim was
accidentally saying was $60K-$70K per
week for several months earlier this year.

Back in May, this was corrected down by
saying that it had actually been $60K-$70K
per month but had now been doubled to $35K
per week.

Going back through the conference calls, it
also looks like this is the revenue stream
that is supposed to grow into the big one
next summer. At least that is how it was
stated a time or two.

Other than today's totals, there has not been
a Friday that was too low of a payout that it
couldn't have included this "revenue".

Granted, some have been pretty close, but I
am also taking into account that a larger
number of people are now claiming via website
and getting out.

A $35K cash infusion "pays" between $35K and
$140K in the commissions paid stats.

With more people bailing out, I'm thinking that
amount would "pay" $50K to $70K if it were
actually put in.

[Dreamer]

But, there is no info on what kinda of investment it was?

I see what your saying about it being too low today to not have the $35k, but my quick look at it was just to se if the amounts seemed higher than the surrounding dates

For example:
3/28/05 - $522k
3/30/05 - $407k
4/01/05 - $449k
4/04/05 - $403k
4/06/05 - $626k
4/08/05 - $302k
4/11/05 - $645k
4/13/05 - $620k
4/15/05 - $313k
4/18/05 - $247k
4/20/05 - $269k
4/22/05 - $195k
4/25/05 - $312k
4/27/05 - $192k
4/29/05 - $204k
5/2/05 - $331k

Ok, none of these are extra low, but comparing them with surrounding dates suggests that there was no $35k, except for maybe the first, but look 2 payments before and after and its not that good, and maybe the 29th, but what about the 5/2 payment and 4/25 payment.

[surfer]

It was only in May that the amount was
supposedly boosted to $35K per week.

Before that, it was allegedly $60K-$70K
per month. It was not stated if these
were made in weekly installments.

If you're just trying to figure this out by
amounts, you also need to remember that
Monday processing is essentially 3 days
worth while Wednesday and Friday are
each 2 days worth.

As for what kind of investment it is.

lol it's the same kind of investment that
all of the wonderfully giving men like Midas,
Bryan Marsden, Kim Inman, etc. seem to
be able to create out of thin air while
the multi-millionaires of the world have to
continue to struggle operating real
businesses with overhead, thousands of
employees, humongous payrolls, etc.

If all of those poor hard working millionaire
saps only knew what Kim, Bryan, Midas, etc.
knew, they could just take some of their
millions and turn it into several billion in only
18 months or so.

It's just that easy. lol

[Darius]

Great fun this. Imagine having no other purpose inlife, than to pick away - bit by bit, atom by atom, the very in's and out's of a company.

Dont you ever ask yourself, why?

Is this endless analysis, covering the same ground, day in, day out not driving you crazy.

Please try and enjoy your life - this is not a practice, this is it.

D

[Arzel]

Great fun this. Imagine having no other purpose inlife, than to pick away - bit by bit, atom by atom, the very in's and out's of a company.

Dont you ever ask yourself, why?

Is this endless analysis, covering the same ground, day in, day out not driving you crazy.

Please try and enjoy your life - this is not a practice, this is it.

D

How about the endless parade of "Kim, you are the greatest! :bow: " which is all that seems to stay on the YM forums. Kim makes a statement that he has a plan to reduce cycle times to 90 days by the end of 2005 (which will be unvieled in a few days or weeks or whatever), and people over there are treating it like the second coming. Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch! :nono:

What makes you think he can produce, when nothing he has promised has ever happened in the time frame he listed. Heck the servers are still not running properly and it has been months. :head:

If YMMSS wasn't so obviously a ponzi scheme there would be no need to talk about it such as we do. :shake:

[surfer]

No Darius, I don't have to ask myself why.

Kim Inman's lies, broken promises, and pie in the
sky sales pitches are hurting a lot of people.

You're right. We don't get a practice run at
life. If I can help just one person avoid these
ponzi schemes and the potential financial and
emotional ruin they often bring by speaking out,
life is good. ;)

I've been around the 'net long enough to see
a lot of people suckered into a lot of crap. I've
simply decided a small portion of my life would
be well spent trying to prevent that.

You do as you wish and don't worry your
precious little self about us. ;)

[Dreamer]

There are alot of good honest people who are being scammed, and I hope that maybe they are learning what to look out for.

My current boss is breaking california labor law codes, in addition to not following proper protocal as set in the handbook we each received. Maybe I'm the only employee that read the handbook several times, and maybe i"m the only one who bothers to read up on california labor law.

But, at the 21 day mark of a no responce to my written request, I will be sending off detailed complaints about everything in the center to corporate and to the labor board, and I am willing to fight for what is mine, I am also willing to lose my job, because California is a at-will state. And, I am even willing to sue my employeer if they fire me after the fact due to wrongful termination.

There are things worth fighting for. I stand to lose alot, but I hope in the process, when it is said and done, the company will no longer lie to the employees because they are too lazy to follow the law.

[Mat_Watcher]

When we watch TV,read newspapers and magazines,drive our cars,everything we made we have been bombarded from ads.
The money spent for these ads goes to owner's of tools was used to advertise with.
YMMSS drive part of this money to who is "victim" of ads,us.

If I own a newspaper and sell the ads for $1,000 a week I keep the whole $1,000.
If I decide to share my earnings with all my readers it so unethical?
Also with this earnings I launch a new newspaper to increae mine and my redaers potentially earnings,still is so unethical?

The money spent on advertising everywhere are millions and all goes on the same pocket from always.
Now part of that money will goes to us ,and with that money we can buy what was advertised.
Advertisers give us part of the money we need to buy them's products.
I can see only a great idea,maybe the laws will not allow actions like this in the future.
But You can be sure it will not be to protect peoples,but to protect mass advertising tools owners.
This just my modest opinion.

Many Thanks

[surfer]

If I own a newspaper and sell the ads for $1,000 a week I keep the whole $1,000.
Not really. Newspapers and TV have a lot more overhead
costs than Kim Inman's ponzi scheme.

If I decide to share my earnings with all my readers it so unethical?
The unethical/illegal part comes in when you make promises
you can't keep and ruin people's lives by robbing them of
their money and dreams.

Also with this earnings I launch a new newspaper to increae mine and my redaers potentially earnings,still is so unethical?
This is where Kim Inman's love for the GE business model
is proven to be a load of crap.

Do you think GE starts up a new business unit just so it
can afford to pay it's employees from the first business
unit?

If a business that GE started was not profitable enough
in its own right to meet payroll demands and turn
a profit, it would be shut down.

The money spent on advertising everywhere are millions and all goes on the same pocket from always.
Now part of that money will goes to us ,and with that money we can buy what was advertised.
Advertisers give us part of the money we need to buy them's products.
I can see only a great idea,maybe the laws will not allow actions like this in the future.
But You can be sure it will not be to protect peoples,but to protect mass advertising tools owners.
This just my modest opinion.

Many Thanks

Kim's business model, the paid to read program, is
already a proven failure on anything but a small
scale operation.

He has simply upped the ante by charging people
to be a part of the paid to read site and making
ridiculous income promises that he can't meet.

He has made himself a millionaire by running this
ponzi while hurting thousands of people with
broken promises and false hope.