The New YMMSS from Kim Inman

[surfer]

Mods or admin feel free to delete this, but I
thought the new plan announcement deserved
its own thread.

The other thread was also getting a bit long. :)

So here is Kim's new scheme.

I'm sure as more details come out, we'll be able
to give it a good once over.

As announced by Esto on the YMForums:
Subject: Straight from Kim July 10, 2005 #1

Straight from Kim

Hello!

This is the first issue of our new newsletter.

My plan is to issue these as needed, at least once a month, but possibly more often. There is a LOT happening. And this issue is probably the most
important communication I have made since we began YMMSS more than three years ago.

An Evolved YMMSS

2005. We began the year with a challenge with multiple causes. We will end it I believe, with a huge advance. Members and staff weighed in with ideas. I went back to late night, solitary sessions of figuring.

Out of my figuring and (in many cases) your ideas, comes a simpler business and pay structure for all affiliates. One that integrates the best of the old with some new features I am about to describe.

1. Fixed 90 Day Cycle Times.

No longer will cycles depend on waiting. No longer will they fluctuate. When you buy (or own) Discounted Advertising value below 32, the associated commission position will cycle at 90 day intervals until it reaches a Discounted Advertising Value of 32. That position will then be placed in a "Reading Fees Account" and transformed into credits.

2. Weekly Payments.

All who have positions worth a Discounted Advertising Value of 32 will have them placed in our new "Reading Fees Account" and affiliates will receive a percentage of the weekly CPA based on the number of credits they have. This will be weekly revenue from all sources divided among our affiliates according to their participation. The following is just an example of how it would work. Result will vary and this should not and cannot be used as an inducement to join this program.

Example:

5,184,032 total credits in the Reading Fees Accounts

Your Your
Credits % $500K $750K $1M $2M

32 .000617% $3.09 $4.63 6.17 $12.35

320 .00617% $30.86 $46.30 $61.73 $123.46

3200 .0617% $308.64 $462.96 $617.28 $1,234.56

32000 .617% $3,086 $4,629 $6,172 $12,345

And:

3. More Money in the Commissions Payable Account.

Our legal team has put its foot down and we can no longer pay the three percent commission to sponsors of new affiliates. This revenue will join other revenue to make a larger CPA every week.

In addition, Admin will no longer receive 22 percent of the price of lesser" positions as they cycle automatically to maturity. We will be seeing more and more additional income as Retail advertising sales begin in earnest and as we carefully add new partnerships, businesses, and income streams from our admin-side investments.

A description of all these changes will be posted in the coming weeks. We will begin work on creating two new database tables that will replace the current ones. Happily, we can create these from scratch without the need to port them from one platform to another.

Table 1 will be our Discounted Advertising Accumulation Table, this will
show your existing positions cycling every 90 days. You will know exactly where you stand.

Table 2 will be our "Reading Fees Account". You will see exactly where you stand in terms of a share of our weekly income.

Here are some immediate advantages:

1. The income is recurrent forever. Everyone will get more in much less time.

2. Fixed 90 day cycles will enable members to know exactly at what point they will enter the "Reading Fees Account".

3. We are "paying forward" big time by giving all existing $320 positions a stake immediately in weekly income.

4. By not infinitely turning over positions, we are answering everyone who has ever had questions about sustainability.

5. We are moving to five rather than six cycles to qualify for income that could well exceed the current return on a $320 position. In fact, I believe that member initiatives in all areas will be unleashed by the dynamo of a weekly pay system.

6. We are moving to create this simultaneous with the inauguration of our retail ad program, which will, I believe, create a synergistic increase in our affiliate base.

7. We are more easily promotable to a skeptical public because we are basing payment on real events rather than predicted possibilities.

How soon will fixed cycles, weekly payment and a more generous CPA be in place?

I am not setting any dates, but I will promise this; on my return from my trip to UK and Europe I will be working directly with a team of programmers to achieve this ASAP.

How soon as that?

Let's put it this way. I believe this will be accomplished as soon as it takes our affililiates to digest this news and understand its profound implications for our common business future and start spreading the word to the world.

An evolved YM hand in hand with STA.

Hold on Web. There's A New Kid on the Block.

All the best,
Kim

PS: Here are some key benchmarks you may find helpful in explaining our company to others:

Phase 1 - Develop an environment where people can advertise their goods and services while compensating those that read the
ads so that they may purchase from the advertisers. Done.

Phase 2 - Build Affiliate base to 25000+, a number desired by most companies that want to advertise on the Internet. Done.

Phase 3 - Solicit Retail Advertising dollars from companies that want to advertise to our Affiliates. Initiated.

Phase 4 - Offer an abundance of products / services to enhance the overall value of being an Affiliate Initiated.

Phase 5 - Build Affiliate base to 100,000. A target for late 2006.

[surfer]

Well, the first thing I wanted to look for was
what's in it for Kim Inman?

I think I've at least partially figured that out.

Example:

5,184,032 total credits in the Reading Fees Accounts

Your Your
Credits % $500K $750K $1M $2M

32 .000617% $3.09 $4.63 6.17 $12.35

320 .00617% $30.86 $46.30 $61.73 $123.46

3200 .0617% $308.64 $462.96 $617.28 $1,234.56

32000 .617% $3,086 $4,629 $6,172 $12,345


So, it looks like the lower percentage of matured
EPCs in the matrix, the bigger chunk Kim gets to
keep, just like before.

Using the total of 5,184,032 credits($10 EPCs)
given in the example above, if only 10% were
matured EPCs, then YMMSS would paying out
on 16,200 units of 32 credits.

So, if $500K in revenue came in during the week,
YMMSS would pay out 16,200 X $3.09 = $50,058.00

So, affiliates with matured EPCs would get
$50,058.00 and YMMSS/Kim Inman gets $449,942.00

Is that looking right to everyone?

The new system of course looks to be designed to
entice affiliates to buy even more smaller EPCs and
wait for their payouts since the initial attraction of
$320s doubling is no longer viable.

Ahhh, the things I do to avoid yard work. lol

[kevin]

Has anyone noticed how all these changes are taking place since Mike Hamilton came onboard as the 'Director of Retail Sales'?

Why would he leave a job with a top 20 company, like he said?

Think he is behind these changes? :confused:

[surfer]

Think he is behind these changes? :confused:
I doubt it, but as a very early YMMSS member
he would be one to benefit from immediate
weekly payments on matured EPCs.

[surfer]

Well, there are some very unhappy campers in
the YMForums.

I think most are still trying to grasp exactly what
it all means as far as income potential.

A couple of the unresolved questions:

Is the claim via website option still available?
Personally, I can't see how this option would
remain as people would have a way to "cheat"
the new system. Put in any amount less than
$160 and take out double 90 days later.

Is Kim Inman still taking his cut from the initial
purchase since it was stated he won't be
taking a cut from the positions while they
cycle?

It was also stated by a member who was at
the conference that implementation is still
several months off. Sort of leaves everyone
hanging in limbo during that time IMHO.

One of the key factors in determing what
each mature position will be worth is going
to be total number of credits(EPCs).

I wonder if YMMSS is going to be open and
honest with it's members and tell them just
how many credits are in the system.

The example number Kim used, 5,184,032
could be close.

The ad forums currently contain about
542,000 EPCs worth of posts.

Other than Platinum posts which last a
year, all others are gone within 7 days.

If Kim's number accurate, affiliates with
matured positions might get one or two
dollars per week if they're lucky.

I also have to wonder if they will keep
using that overinflated commissions "paid"
figure or will they go with legit numbers.

That is, of course, if YMMSS doesn't
shut down before then.

[Dreamer]

I gotta think about this more...but, a question for you...does this mean that if you have 10 320s in the system, they are in the system for good and you can no longer withdraw them when they cycle since nothing cycles anymore?

Is this a way to make sure to keep all the money from all the people without having to pay back anything, so that if next year only $5 is generated per week, everybody will get a fraction of a penny, and kimmy will keep the multi million dollars in the pool?

Can people demand their money back before its initiated because that was not part of the terms and conditions they agreed to when they invested heavly into the business?

And, does that completely stop reinvestment now because nobody will be reinvesting at all?

Is he trying to run away with the company this quickly? Any insights? I dont know much about MLMs and such, but am I wrong in my thoughts?

[surfer]

The claim via website issue has yet to be
addressed.

I guess many of the unanswered questions
will have to wait until Kim gets back from
the UK. There are conference calls tomorrow
so I'm sure the more pressing issues will be
talked about.

The way it looks at the moment is that Kim
will still take his 25% of every new purchase
and the rest will go into the CPA to be split
between everyone with a mature position.

But as I mentioned above, since your cut
is based off of the percentage of total EPCs,
including unmatured one's, Kim also gets to
keep any funds that are not paid out.

People can "demand" whatever they want,
but Kim Inman and YMMSS are hidden away
from the big bad U.S. government to
protect themselves from the terrible Patriot
Act. Convenient, huh?

We'll know more in the next couple days
Dreamer. ;)

This is all just my initial take on things. I
may not have everything right just yet.

[Arzel]

And, does that completely stop reinvestment now because nobody will be reinvesting at all?



I think that answer to this would be resounding yes. Since each mature position gets a % of the CPA each week, there would not be much of an incentive to purchase additional positions.

Given the current number of positions already out there, to increase your percentage by a noticable about would require a substantial number of purchases.

In a couple of years when all current positions are matured (number unknown, but we can use the 5,000,000 number mentioned) each position would return a "share" of a very small ammount.

Let's say they are still bringing in $500,000 a week. with 5,000,000 positions each one would only have a share of $0.10 a week. Now this works out to about 1% a week ROI, which some people will still say "Better than the bank!". But the problem is each new position bought is going to reduce your return by a small percentage. These things have a way of balancing out, so everyone will have to continue to buy positions to just keep there 1%, making it near impossible to stay ahead of the game.

And the $500,000 a week is still basically people buying positions, so the % continues to get diluted anyway. If no one decides to buy positions than the CPA goes way down and your 1% is only based off outside revenue.

Now if Kim can really get some huge outside revenue generated than it may not be a bad system because you wouldn't need to buy a bunch of positions to get a piece of the pie. But I think the outside revenue is mostly a imaginary anyway, and I seriously doubt the retail side to be able to bring in huge ammounts of revenue.

Clearly those people with a huge number of positions right now would benefit the most.

This is definately a wait and see situation, but from the looks of it I don't see the new setup to make a positive difference for most YMMSS members.

[bowmaker]

so the ymmss business model failed . very sad . how does one pay of 42 $320's purchased by credit card by being paid $3.00 a week? this wasnt me , i dont have a credit card . i only have about $40.00 invested in ymmss .

[surfer]

Sad, but expected by us "negative" people.

It will probably not even be $3.00/week
bowmaker.

And those who invested heavily via credit
cards, loans, etc. are going to learn a
hard, cruel lesson about falling for hype.

I empathize, but the warning signs coupled
with a little common sense should have told
them to steer clear.

[bowmaker]

gary harvey is a major player in recruiting new members to ymmss and now he wont be getting the 3% from their purchases and i know this has got to be eating at him . while most are ashamed to have ever recruited anyone to ymmss , gary still is just worried about himself . check out this post from the ym forum.

Greetings.

My big question about the new system is:

What is the INCENTIVE for members (affiliates) to promote YMMSS under this new system?

When I joined, my sponsor earned $11 for introducing me. Then that changed to the very generous 3percent in Nov 04. Now what is the incentive? I havent seen any so far.

One of Kim's original three "specifications" for the business was that it had to provide an IMMEDIATE reward to members. Last time I looked that criteria was still stated at the ym.org site.

Gary

[surfer]

Yep, and for only $27.00, you can be a
master recruiter like him.
http://www.easywaystopromoteyourbusiness.com/YMMSS/

And for just another $10 per month, you
can get a classy recruiting website.
http://fulltimeincomefromparttimework.com/site-order.html

He may have a couple other money
sucking products on his site at
http://www.ymservices.net/

As of June 30, he had recruited 294 victims
into YMMSS so he could further line his
own pockets.

Similar to many of the MLM "gurus" who
love to sell stuff to their own dowline.

He definitely isn't going to handle his
shriveling YMMSS income very well.
http://fulltimeincomefromparttimework.com/commissions-received-gary.html

Like many members, he stopped updating
his commission stats at the end of last
year. Wouldn't want to show people
the reality of what was going on. :nono:

[Dreamer]

Even the $500,000 a week, how much money is coming from matured positions that were reinvested, or whatever the proper termonalgy? the $320 pays out $320 and $320 gets put back into the system. Well, that $320 will never get put back into the system, so the only money coming in will be from new members, and from outside sources.

But, what incentive do I have to join? I can buy $10 EPCs everyday for 90 days. Ok. Wait a year and a half, and they magically become $320 EPCs. But since it is no longer money, in the 18months, I will have 90 points, or whatever, out of 50,000, or whatever is out there. So, that $900 will earn me about a dime or a quarter a week, if it keeps up with the $500,000 a week (ok, i"m not even pretending to do any math here).

Thats not that great of a deal if you ask me.

But, what about the people that are already in the system? What incentative will they have to buy more positions? The math just doesn't work out.

The only thing that would work, IMO, would be to treat it as a company and sell shares. Have the limit be 5million, so if I want to sell my shares, I could sell them for however much I could get for them. Even so, There will be alot of pissed off people when that happens when they no longer can get the money out of the system. I be he is hoping to get past Nov 19th, or whatever they are working on, by the end of the year than implement the program to allow the early birds to cash out.

[surfer]

We know that the commissions "paid" stats are
highly inflated and YMMSS is not even close to
$500K/week in revenue at the moment.

The incentive to buy is the hopes of a successful
advertising business and those large "outside
revenue" streams, neither of which are certainties.

The people already in the system would then be
forced to manually purchase new positions instead
of letting the system automaticaly repurchase for
them once they get to $320.

The new design is just like buying shares. But
once again a major flaw in the system is allowing
unlimited amounts of shares to be purchased that
will dilute the overall payouts.

I'll also be very interested in how this new system
will be marketed since the old system was all hype
and unrealistic promises.

With "fixed" cycle times leading into a profit sharing
type situation, I have to wonder if this new program
could be tagged as an investment scheme by
regulators. That's what it keeps looking like to me.

[Gringo]

Kim made this change as a result of the very obvious writing on the wall, that being that revenue was in a nose dive and soon he'd be in the negative. He also thinks this new plan will perk up sales. I think it will have just the opposite affect. Sales will nose dive even steeper. Here's why:

A confused mind always says no. The new plan confuses both new and potential members. The ultimate earning potential is unknown. Affiliates that have been waiting on the side have even more reason to hold off. They will want to see what the earning potential is. Members with regular purchases will stop for the same reason. Things will be even more in a state of limbo than they were in the past.

New recruiting will stop immediately and almost completely, for the above reason as well as the fact that there is no incentive. In fact, one affiliate pointed out that there is now a DISincentive to recruit, since the more people in the weekly pool, the more diluted the shares are.

Things will go from bad to worse and I wouldn't be suprised if Kim comes up with something entirely different even before this one is implemented in the 4 - 6 month time frame that is expected.

This is Kim's end game that has been discussed here. He needs to take the people from a nose dive crash landing to a more gentle end. This will happen with ever changing system structures until ultimately each person's income is 100% commission based, or based soley on the earnings of the company according to the percent of ownership--just like any stockholder.

The good news is that fewer people than ever will be sucked into his schemes. Hopefully we are past the days of people maxing out credit cards, borrowing on their homes, sucking in friends and family, etc.

[drzod]

Ok, so I was out on vacation on Friday, and I come back to the "new YMMSS."

Let me see if I get this right...

01) They will now track ad reading to ensure you meet your 30 minutes a week. If you do not meet this requirement, your account will be deactivated.

02) Failure to complete the survey will result in deactivation of your account.

03) The new compensation plan allows members with less than 32 EPC's the chance to cycle every 90 days until they reach 32 EPC's.

The first point should have been in place since the new site was up and running and is simply holding members to the membership agreement. It will direct money from casual viewers of the forums and towards the "power users" of the YMMSS forums. It will eliminate the "lesser positions," and move the core YMMSS members further up the ladder. Since these members were encouraged to buy EPC's daily or weekly, they will not only get paid first, but now get paid first even faster.

The survey point will deactivate member’s accounts that have little money invested in YMMSS who feel completing the extensive survey is not worth their minimal investment. It is a further "weeding of the herd" along the lines of the first point - simply more money in the pot for "hard core" YMMSS members.

The last point is a recruiting tactic to bring more money into the system (since you cannot "cash out" until you get to the 32 EPC level). Expect them to start selling this to "new members" quickly. I bet they will fail to disclaim that the 90-day cycle time disappears right at the time that you would get paid.

To my knowledge, nothing is in place to help the poor YMMSS members who are at the 32 EPC level. They will still be victimized by the current cycle time. Obviously YMMSS needs "new blood" to replace the existing list of 32 EPC members. These members question the business model the most, have invested the most, and stand to lose the most from YMMSS. They are not putting more into the system, so they are no longer important to YMMSS or its core membership.

These points should be a major red flag for current YMMSS members. I am just glad that most simple searches for YMMSS will now turn up this site.

If you remember my post in early June after talking to Kim, I stated that he was "either the most wicked con man ever, or really believes that YMMSS will work." I am sticking with the former - wicked.

It is scary how many more lives will be ruined by this supposed "visionary."

[lettie]

Using the total of 5,184,032 credits($10 EPCs)
given in the example above, if only 10% were
matured EPCs, then YMMSS would paying out
on 16,200 units of 32 credits.

So, if $500K in revenue came in during the week,
YMMSS would pay out 16,200 X $3.09 = $50,058.00

So, affiliates with matured EPCs would get
$50,058.00 and YMMSS/Kim Inman gets $449,942.00

Is that looking right to everyone?



I am quite amazed that you would try and pick apart this new business plan when you don't have the facts and figures.

Your assumption above is completely incorrect. The quoted number are not $10 value EPC's. That is the total number of Reading Credits in the pool. Divide this by 32 and you would get the number of positions in the revenue pool - in this case 162001. If the CPA had 500K, then each position would be worth $3.09 as quoted. These numbers are only for example purposes and anything else is purely speculative.

Thanks
Lettie

[swishnev]

when has ymmss had facts and figures to give out???? everything is purely speculative with ymmss.....cycle times will lower when the servers come up.....cycle times will stay around 60-90 days......i have never received a concrete answer from ymmss except to banish me.

[surfer]

What do you think a "reading credit" is
lettie? It's an EPC.

They only pay out those with a 'Discounted
Advertising Value of 32" which is a $320 EPC.

So a $320 EPC is worth $3.09/week in the
example given.

And yes, the numbers are speculative. You'll
be lucky if a "Discounted Advertising Value of 32"
is worth $1.

YMMSS isn't bringing anywhere near $500K in
per week. Don't forget, the commissions paid
numbers are inflated because of the way the
processing is done. It only took $80K-$100K
in "real" revenue to show the $200K paid last
week.

If you haven't noticed, we've been a lot more
accurate in our predictions of YMMSS' performance
than good old Kim Inman has.

But feel free to point out the inaccuracies in
my example and you'll have my apologies. ;)

As we get more info, we'll do a much more
accurate analysis.

Good luck lettie.

[surfer]

Now, if by chance, the reading credit
pool number refers to only
matured EPCs, then that would mean
Kim was paying out 100% of the CPA
which would leave YMMSS with income
only from brand new EPC purchases.

That certainly wouldn't allow him to
create much future outside revenue that
is so vital to your company's survival.

The plan was not presented very well,
which is typical YMMSS fashion.

That's why I stated in my first postI'm sure as more details come out, we'll be able
to give it a good once over.

The entire YMMSS business model is
based on speculation.

They are speculating that the retail
advertising will do well.

They are speculating that the huge
income streams will materialize as
promised.

Etc., etc.

[concerned]

If I understand correctly, a $320 epc that gets paid $3 per week will take 220 weeks to properly cycle. Because when you put in $320, you were told it would double. For it to double, you would need 220 payments of $3 just to get the amount to double 1 time. I thought it was bad when the cycle times were around 250 days, but now with the current model, the cycle times are (220*7) 1540 days or (220 / 7) 3.9 years. Sounds like a good sound investment now. Where do I sigh up?

[lettie]

In your example you stated:

So, affiliates with matured EPCs would get
$50,058.00 and YMMSS/Kim Inman gets $449,942.00

That is incorrect as using the example given: there would be
162001 paying positions each one worth 3.09.

Your comment of YMMSS getting 449,942 is incorrect and that
is what I was referring to.

I have no problem with you saying what you want about the system
but if you are going to quote numbers, make sure you have your calculations correct.

Thanks
Lettie

[surfer]

Glad to have you here if my figures are
wrong Lettie. Welcome to MatrixWatch.

My apologies as promised. ;) After a
second, third, and fourth read, it looks
like that is what's being said.

I was just so excited at something new. :)

I'll keep digging for more info and do a
much better job for you in the future.

Thank You. :D

[Mat_Watcher]

Without numbers:
Part of CPA funds from day1 to day7 (weekly basis) are equally redistribuited beetween every 32 EPCs positions.

Many Thanks

[surfer]

So essentially, they are cycling all the
lower positions with no cash needed.

They're just putting them on a 90 day
cycle and even if YMMSS brings nothing
in, they "double". :shake:

Has to be that way if they are using
all revenue to pay out to the matured
positions.

Very scary.

[lettie]

Surfer - what sort of an apology can I expect when this new system gets going and proves that YMMSS is a sustainable advertising business :)

Lettie

[surfer]

A sincere one. :D

I do reserve the right to not apologize until
all the YMMSS members who claimed we were
wrong about the sustainability of the old
system come crawling back in and apologize. :bow:

Of course, I wouldn't count my chickens
before they're hatched. I think you need
an advertising website first. Then you
need at least one customer, neither of
which are in place yet.

But I love to see people succeed. Many of
your closed minded mates can't grasp that
fact.

And I hate to see people be misled and
fed a bunch of hype and B.S.

[Mat_Watcher]

So essentially, they are cycling all the
lower positions with no cash needed.

They're just putting them on a 90 day
cycle and even if YMMSS brings nothing
in, they "double". :shake:

Has to be that way if they are using
all revenue to pay out to the matured
positions.

Very scary.

Not exactly.

I wrote part of the CPA.
Not sure yet as I do not metabolized yet the whole process.

I think that these lower positions are cycled with CPA funds in a close way as now.
Then the weekly funds to share comes out from result of these daily processes more the income from sources.

This is just my opinion.

Many thanks

[surfer]

I think that these lower positions are cycled with CPA funds in a close way as now.

That wouldn't make much sense since the net
cost to cycle lower positions now is the admin
fee for the repurchased position.

If Kim is no longer taking his 25% from the
cycling positions, the net cost to cycle is
zero.

Lots more clarification to come in the near
future. :)

[Mat_Watcher]

Still with doubt,the only positions that will cost something if things are like we understand will be the $160>$320,

So only positions cycling to next table for sharing profits should reduce CPA.

I agree,lot of more clarification/speculations/confusions,not only here, will come.

Many thanks

[Mat_Watcher]

Seems are not cycling $$$ but EPCs.

1 EPC will double the advertising power every 90 days till 16 EPCs,when it become 32 EPCs will generate profits.

Many Thanks

[Dreamer]

Will they even be called EPCs anymore? I mean you wait the 18 months if u start with $10 just so u can get one piece of the percentage

And I'm still wondering if u can ever take out the money you put into it. I know people have put in tens of thousands of dollars...I dont think they will be so happy with the new system if they cant withdraw their money.

[Arzel]

Listening to the Monday night conference call one would expect a lot of talk about the new compensation plan, and that is just what did happen.

There was understandably a lot of confusion on exactly how the comp plan would change things, but there are a few things which are notable.

Increase in $10 purchases?

I am not sure which moderator was talking (Jim or Berry), but what was clear was that he is quite sure that the new plan will result in a huge number of new $10 purchases.

The logic is that you want to have as many 32 EPC positions as possible, because each one will pay weekly under the new plan. He also seemed to believe that this is a common belief among most of the upper YMMSS'ers. Of course there are differing opinions on this matter. Since each new mature position reduces the average amount paid to all positions new purchases should have a net zero affect in the overall amount paid to the average person, with the exception of those that already have mature positions benifiting until the new $10 positions mature. Without any significant outside revenue I still see this as a Ponzi type arrangement since money is only being shifted around from those with less than an equal share of positions.

For example if there were 100 positions spread amoung 100 people each person would get an equal amount (one share) each week. If it was a closed group (not growing) and 100% redistribution (no Kim) than everyone would just get their own money back. Add one position to the mix (101) with still 100 people and one person having two positions than you would have each position worth 0.99 shares and one person having 1.98 shares. Everyone except for the 1.98 share person would lose money in this situation, albeit quite slowly.

Compare this with YMMSS, and you will eventually reach a point of a closed group (for all practical purposes), so the only real money would be that of outside revenue. In addition, Kim is still taking some amount for operation purposes (exactly what is not quite clear, but probably at least 11%). It will take a little more analysis to get the exact figures, but based off current information each person is going to need a share of at least 1.06 just to break even, and this is just not possible, some people will have to lose.

Another interesting call was quite misleading. One lady has 43 $320 positions ($13,760), never having been paid. She originally was thinking that (based off 90 day cycle times) she would be in a position to recieve about $4,000 a month. Under the new plan she is being led to believe that she would make about $4,000 a week! using the example given in the new plan. Obviously this is not correct, she more accurately calculated it to be about $500 a month, taking her about 27 months to recoup her initial amount paid, and to stay at the level she will have to purchase more positions to keep her share from being diluted, making it more difficult.

I am not sure what the moderator was thinking, but he needs to do a little more math to understand their plan before giving out advice. They are also really touting the $19 million a week coming in next year, but most logical thinking people will realize this is just not feasible, as it is close to a billion dollars a year. Even $19 million a month is $228 million a year. Money that is being generated at a rate far in excess of what YMMSS initially promised their own members (which since it is not working, why would anyone believe that this other source could prodcue even more?).

One of the most interesting aspects of the call is the near admission that the current model was a Ponzi! It is amazing how a business that was working exactly as it was designed and completely legal, can suddenly be described as not working and that the new plan would make them "squeaky clean" with no more worries about affiliate fees or doubling problems.

My personal opinion of the new plan is that it has been introduced to try and stimulate a huge amount of $10 purchases in anticipation of the new comp plan. However, I think most members are already past their limits, and the new plan will make no difference at all. Additionally when it comes to pass that the new plan is not making a difference YMMSS will crash more completely than I originally thought it might.

I originally thought YMMSS would crash this summer, most likely in August. This new plan could give YMMSS a few more months, but when the new plan goes into effect and people see how small their shares are worth it will be all over.

[Gringo]

This new plan could give YMMSS a few more months, but when the new plan goes into effect and people see how small their shares are worth it will be all over. I don't know. Kim saw the writing on the wall and restructured it before a complete crash, and he will probably do the same when this new plan flops. What we will see are ever improving changes to an already perfect design. :D
He's made his fortune, now he needs to move his scam from the impossible long term ponzi structure, to a long term sustainable business that will let down the victims gently, allowing him to maintain as many followers but gradually lower their expectations. He probably realizes that his multi-million dollar earning years are behind him, and if he can earn a few bucks on the tail end, then that's just gravy.

At say $2/week for a $320 position it will take 3 years to double. So his 3 month doubling plan is now 3 years. Even this can't be sustained since he has yet to come up with a viable product/service. By the end of the year it will be clear to all that the multi-million dollar advertising service flag ship has sunk and the blame will likely be the fact that there aren't enough members reading the ads. He just took away the recruiting incentive, and he very well could decide to bring it back. This will probably mean doing away with the under $320, 90 day doubling piece of the new program. That way he can then say he's really, truely squeeky clean.

Many other scenarios are possible, but the point is he's got too much to let it die a natural death and he's already broken barrier on making drastic changes to his original perfect business model, so future ones will be less tramatic to the followers.

[surfer]

A little more info on the new plan.

From the YMMSS Help Desk (http://www.ymhelp.com/?_a=announcements&_m=details&_i=155)

Most info is a repeat of what we already
know, but there is some new info about
existing positions getting "weighted".
An Evolved YMMSS
12 Jul 2005 - K-ADMIN
Last edited by K-ADMIN, 13 Jul 2005
It just keeps getting better.
Hello!

This issue is probably the most important communication I have made since we began YMMSS more than three years ago.

First of all, I want you to understand that I truly believe that the new system will benefit everyone. If I did not believe that, I would not make the change.

No longer will you have to wait 260 days or how many the cycle days are to be paid. Our goal when implementing this new plan is that you will receive equal earnings if you read the ads 30 minutes a week, but in a weekly amount. This will put money in people's pocket that has never been paid.

When the new system goes up for those people that are about to cycle, they will be paid on a weighted scale for a period of time. We understand that a position purchased 260 days ago has more value than a position that was purchased 7 days ago. In other words a purchase that was made 260 ago, should have a value of 37 times the purchase that was made 7 days ago because 260/7 = approximately 37. It is simply the time value of money.

We know that you will have questions and will try in these weekly conferences to answer all of them. Please go to http://ymforums.com to submit your questions.

An Evolved YMMSS

2005. We began the year with a challenge with multiple causes. We will end it I believe, with a huge advance. Members and staff weighed in with ideas. I went back to late night, solitary sessions of figuring.

Out of my figuring and (in many cases) your ideas, comes a simpler business and pay structure for all affiliates. One that integrates the best of the old with some new features I am about to describe. Again, it should be noted that questions should be addressed to the forum at http://ymforums.com because the helpdesk will not be able to answer questions about the new system until after it has been developed and they have been trained. Before I go on, please understand that we are doing this for our affiliates benefit, not ours.

1. Fixed 90 Day Cycle Times.

No longer will cycles depend on waiting. No longer will they fluctuate. When you buy (or own) Discounted Advertising value below 32, the associated commission position will cycle at 90 day intervals until it reaches a Discounted Advertising Value of 32. That position will then be placed in a "Reading Fees Account" and transformed into credits.

2. Weekly Payments.

All who have positions worth a Discounted Advertising Value of 32 will have them placed in our new "Reading Fees Account" and affiliates will receive a percentage of the weekly CPA based on the number of credits they have. This will be weekly revenue from all sources divided among our affiliates according to their participation. Our goal is that the monies you receive would equal the money you would receive from the current system. The only difference is that you receive based on weekly income instead being paid when it cycles. The following is just an example of how it would work. Result will vary and this should not and cannot be used as an inducement to join this program.

Example: Say there are 5,184,032 total credits in the Reading Fees Accounts

Your Your Credits % $500K $750K $1M $2M

32 .000617% $3.09 $4.63 6.17 $12.35

320 .00617% $30.86 $46.30 $61.73 $123.46

3200 .0617% $308.64 $462.96 $617.28 $1,234.56

32000 .617% $3,086 $4,629 $6,172 $12,345

And:

3. More Money in the Commissions Payable Account.

Before we go any further it should be noted that we have been informed that it may not be legally prudent to pay out a 3% residual to the sponsor of a new Affiliate. The lawyers have stated that “Success Through Advertising, LLC should no longer pay a 3% fee to Sponsor Affiliates and should also discontinue all automatic repurchases. The three percent should be added to the Reading Fees Account, thus benefiting all Affiliates and making YMMSS a true people helping people business. Every affiliate’s earnings should increase accordingly and every Affiliate should be more motivated to become an active part of the sales force while still retaining the motivation to bring in new Affiliates. Retail ads can earn the Affiliate 15% commission, payable not within 90 days but within two weeks of receipt of the retail sales money.” Thus, up to 78% from all income sources will feed the “Reading Fees Account,” formerly called the Commissions Payable Account (CPA) instead of 75%.

As retail sales are the main focus of the business we will institute a series of seminars to teach affiliates how to sell retail ads. These seminars will be regional and non compulsory. Fees for the seminars, if any, will be only to cover costs as will any promotional materials provided there. Some people are “born salesmen” but most of us have to be taught. In this case even a “born salesman” will benefit from the seminars. Affiliates will benefit in two ways, increased sales of EPCs and they will also earn a commission separate from the fees earned from reading Ads.

A description of all these changes will be posted in the coming weeks. We will begin work on creating two new database tables that will replace the current ones.

Happily, we can create these from scratch without the need to port them from one platform to another.

Table 1 will be our EPC Accumulation Table, this will show your existing positions cycling every 90 days. You will know exactly where you stand.

Table 2 will be our "Reading Fees Account". You will see exactly where you stand in terms of a share of our weekly income.

Here are some immediate advantages:

1. The income is recurrent forever. Everyone will get more in much less time.

2. Fixed 90 day cycles will enable members to know exactly at what point they will enter the "Reading Fees Account".

3. We are "paying forward" big time by giving all existing $320 positions a stake immediately in weekly income.

4. By not infinitely turning over positions, we are answering everyone who has ever had questions about sustainability.

5. We are moving to five rather than six cycles to qualify for income that could well exceed the current return on a $320 position. In fact, I believe that member initiatives in all areas will be unleashed by the dynamo of a weekly pay system.

6. We are moving to create this simultaneous with the inauguration of our retail ad program, which will, I believe, create a synergistic increase in our affiliate base.

7. We are more easily promotable to a skeptical public because we are basing payment on real events rather than predicted possibilities.

How soon will fixed cycles, weekly payment and a more generous CPA be in place?

I am not setting any dates, but I will promise this; on my return from my trip to UK and Europe I will be working directly with a team of programmers to achieve this ASAP.

How soon as that?

Let's put it this way. I believe this will be accomplished as soon as it takes our affiliates to digest this news and understand its profound implications for our common business future and start spreading the word to the world.

An evolved YM hand in hand with STA.

All the best,

Kim

PS: Here are some key benchmarks you may find helpful in explaining our company to others: Phase 1 - Develop an environment where people can advertise their goods and services while compensating those that read the ads so that they may purchase from the advertisers. Done.

Phase 2 - Build Affiliate base to 25000+, a number desired by most companies that want to advertise on the internet. Done.

Phase 3 - Solicit Retail Advertising dollars from companies that want to advertise to our Affiliates. Initiated.

Phase 4 - Offer an abundance of products / services to enhance the overall value of being an Affiliate. Initiated.

Phase 5 - Build Affiliate base to 100,000. A target for late 2006.

[Salsa]

Well, surfer, that does clarify a few points. Most especially that admin will continue taking 22% of all cash purchases. (No cash will be necessary to compound "lesser" positions.)

In addition, Kim is still taking some amount for operation purposes (exactly what is not quite clear, but probably at least 11%).

One of the things that leapt out at me when I read the original "Straight from Kim" post was:

In addition, Admin will no longer receive 22 percent of the price of lesser" positions as they cycle automatically to maturity.

That's the phraseology of a deceitful person. Why would he name a specific percentage? Why not say, "Admin will no longer receive a percentage"? It's because admin intended to take some percentage, maybe 21%, or 23% or 50%, just not 22%. It's the kind of "precise" language that a liar uses when trying to represent himself "honestly" by not saying exactly what he means.

My personal opinion of the new plan is that it has been introduced to try and stimulate a huge amount of $10 purchases in anticipation of the new comp plan.

I agree. While I think that very few people should be foolish enough to buy-in at any level, $320 donations would be the most grotesque waste. However, the greediest true believers may buy wholesale numbers of $10 EPCs in an effort to get a bigger take from the pie. There may also be some $20's and $40's in there, however, in order to get them matured in time to increase their cuts of the first $19M weeks. ;)

Anyway, I'm in wait mode--not to see if it works--but to listen for the next death knell.

Salsa
__________________

[swishnev]

i've talked to some people in ymmss and on here who still aren't sure what this all means and i'm not the best at explaining it to them. can someone do a better job than i can in describing what exactly is happening in terms that everyone can understand?

[Arzel]

I will try.

$10 to $160 EPC positions have no outside value, other than in name. They are said to cycle every 90 days, but it could be 30 days, 45 days, 120 days or 1000 days, the difference to YMMSS would be zero, only the size of the CPA pool would change at a faster or slower rate.

The best way to look at it would be to say that after buying a $10 EPC you have to read ads (unpaid) for 457 days (5 cycles and one week), at which point your $10 EPC would be paid about $0.10 to $3 a week (under current weekly pay rates of a reported $500,000 - yes, I know it is more like $250,000, but $500,000 is what they report so I will use that). There is a large range because the actual number of EPC "credits" are not known. There are as many as 5,000,000 and at least 500,000 right now.

The actual amount will vary with the size of the EPC credit pool, because as each new position (share) matures it will increase the total pool and decrease the amount paid to each share.

Perhaps another way to look at it.

Approximately $500,000 a week was being processed out of YMMSS. An amount at least 10 times less than what was needed to keep cycle times constant.

Under the new system, you should recieve about 10% of your 32 EPC value in 90 days. so 90/7 = 12.86 weeks. 10% of $320 is $32. $32/12.86 = $2.48 (approximately) per week per $320 (32 ECP Credit) position per week. Interestingly this is very close to the $3.09 mentioned by Kim as a low estimate (high if you ask me).

If you paid $320 for a position it would take about 2.5 years to get your $320 back, and that is assuming a $320 share value remains constant (which is won't).

If Kim somehow comes through with $19 million a week in outside revenue I will eat my words and join up, ironically if he does, current members would do best to never allow a single new member to join. :)

[swishnev]

so each time the $10 epc cycles and moves to $20, $40, $80, etc.....does ymmss get money from that as well even though the member does not?

[surfer]

Nope, it's just the EPC value(there's an oxymoron)
doubling.

In the old system, admin was supposedly taking
25% of the repurchase value.

FWIW, since nobody actually knows for certain
how the programming of the old system really was
implemented, Kim could have been cycling lower
value positions without cash all along, inflating
the commissions paid stats.

The only ones that truly needed money would
have been ones on claim via website.

Just thought I'd throw that out for the really
skeptical people. :)

Of course, that would mean Kim hasn't made
as much money as we think. :)

[swishnev]

so every 90 days (or so) the $10 will turn to $20 then to $40 and so on until it reaches $320 correct, but no real money will move around, just the value? Then after it cycles at $320 what happens? Also, is there a cap on how often the $320's will cycle?

[surfer]

Right.

Of course, that's also part of the illusion at
this point.

It doesn't really turn into $320. Once it
matures it then goes into the payout pool
to get it's share of weekly revenue.

So, it could be a penny per week or it could
be a trillion dollars/week(dream big :D).

Once the position matures, it is done cycling.
It simply goes into the share pool and pays
out weekly until the business shuts down.

If you want another position, you have to pay
it out of pocket. There is no more automatic
repurchasing of EPCs.

There is no more claim via website.

[Salsa]

surfer already answered this, but I suppose that various takes on the same question can't hurt:
so each time the $10 epc cycles and moves to $20, $40, $80, etc.....does ymmss get money from that as well even though the member does not?No, not as I understand it. Except for the cost of an initial purchase, positions will have no cash values--only time values. Keeping the same names for the various postion sizes is, I think, just to give affilliates a sense of continuity between the plans. They could now be called anything.

The weekly kitty will be divvied up between all $320's, only. So, if you were to purchase a $320, you would begin getting your cut, immediately (once the plan is implemented). The only difference between a $320 position and lesser positions is the amount of time you will have to wait before getting a cut of the kitty. If you bought in with a $160, you would have to wait 90 days to begin getting a cut; $80: 180 days; $40: 270 days; $20: 360 days; $10: 450 days.

It also appears, however, that the return on even a $320 will be prorated and will not give you a full cut until you have owned it for one cycle. This is in fairness to affiliates who've been waiting for mature positions to cycle for as long as 8+ months. So their cut of the kitty will be larger than someone who purchased a mature position more recently.

That's my understanding of it, anyway.

Salsa
________________

[swishnev]

are they saying that every 90 days you will get your cut though? regardless if it's $1 or $100? or is it possible that those cycle days will rise as well?

[surfer]

No swishnev, the pay for each position is
paid out weekly.

The lower positions cycle every 90 days on
a fixed cycle.

The equivaelent to rising cycle times would be
a drop in share value.

[swishnev]

ok, so what if someone is holding a $160 epc that is 1 day from cycling when they start up the new system? does that person have to start back at day 1 and wait another 90 days? In other words, for people who are "on their way to cycling" now, should they just forget about it since if they don't cycle before the new system start up date they will have to wait another 90 days?

also, the pay for each $320 epc that is paid out weekly will be a percentage of incoming money divided by the number of $320 positions total? so, if they have 1 epc to pay out weekly (hypothetical) and $100 of incoming money that 1 epc will get that $100, but if they have 10,000 epc's to pay weekly and only $100 coming in the 10,000 epc's will only get $.01

Lastly, does this mean YMMSS is going to open up its records and let people know how many $320 epc's there are or are they going to rely on people "trusting" that they are handing out the money correctly?

[surfer]

ok, so what if someone is holding a $160 epc that is 1 day from cycling when they start up the new system? does that person have to start back at day 1 and wait another 90 days? In other words, for people who are "on their way to cycling" now, should they just forget about it since if they don't cycle before the new system start up date they will have to wait another 90 days?

It will be weighted, but we'll have to see exactly
how that works out. I have a feeling people will
be disappointed. From the update:
When the new system goes up for those people that are about to cycle, they will be paid on a weighted scale for a period of time. We understand that a position purchased 260 days ago has more value than a position that was purchased 7 days ago. In other words a purchase that was made 260 ago, should have a value of 37 times the purchase that was made 7 days ago because 260/7 = approximately 37. It is simply the time value of money.

also, the pay for each $320 epc that is paid out weekly will be a percentage of incoming money divided by the number of $320 positions total? so, if they have 1 epc to pay out weekly (hypothetical) and $100 of incoming money that 1 epc will get that $100, but if they have 10,000 epc's to pay weekly and only $100 coming in the 10,000 epc's will only get $.01
Exactly.

Lastly, does this mean YMMSS is going to open up its records and let people know how many $320 epc's there are or are they going to rely on people "trusting" that they are handing out the money correctly?
I'm certain they won't be "opening" the books :nono:
but you should be able to estimate the number
of matured positions by analyzing Table 2 in your
stats.

Table 2 will be our "Reading Fees Account". You will see exactly where you stand in terms of a share of our weekly income.

[swishnev]

ok, thanks for the help. so really they are depending on "future income" to keep people interested/motivated. so when they first start all the money they have left over right now in the commission pool will be "flushed" into that first weeks $320 epc's and then later on depend on "weekly income" to pay out the $320 epc %'s? Or will they slowly "infuse" money from the existing commission pool into the "weekly income" to keep the average payout(s) higher?

[surfer]

Since members are accustomed to working
with cycle times, I guess you could consider
the weekly payout as a group cycle time
that changes weekly.

For example, if the true current cycle time
was actually 262 days, that would equate
to $8.55/week on a recurring $320 position.

In Kim's example, $3.09/week would equate
to a real cycle time of 725 days in the old
system.

[swishnev]

I understand that part, but where is the money coming from? If they are going to distribute it among all the $320 positions weekly won't they have to pay all the "income" out every week, therefore, what happens to the existing commissions payable pool?

[surfer]

ok, thanks for the help. so really they are depending on "future income" to keep people interested/motivated. so when they first start all the money they have left over right now in the commission pool will be "flushed" into that first weeks $320 epc's and then later on depend on "weekly income" to pay out the $320 epc %'s? Or will they slowly "infuse" money from the existing commission pool into the "weekly income" to keep the average payout(s) higher?

In the current system, the CPA is drained
to zero every day.

It seems like they would actually have to
halt all processing for a week to switch
over to the new weekly system, taking
the previous weeks income and dividing it
among the pool.

[swishnev]

plain and simple. i think they ran out of money, or are running out of money. did they process today? this just buys them more time to gather up money that they may/may not pay out

[surfer]

No, they didn't run out of money. :)

There are still some victims throwing money
into the system.

Today's processing saw another 2 day rise
up to 262 days and a "paid" amount of
$189,706.90

Just think about it swishnev. Which system
do you think will allow Kim to keep the business
floating longer?

A system that pays maybe a few people each
day that have a bunch of $320s in a row.

Or a business that pays a lot of people a couple
dollars per week.

Even getting a few cents to every member with
mature positions will be better for morale, and
for Kim, than people waiting for another year
to get paid $320 on a position that their back
office says is only a month or two away.

This system will buy Kim more time.

[Gringo]

Even getting a few cents to every member with mature positions will be better for morale, and
for Kim, than people waiting for another year
to get paid $320 on a position that their back
office says is only a month or two away.
This system will buy Kim more time.

Precisely. As per my previous post, Kim's goals: keep the system from crashing, lower everyones expectations while keeping moral as high as possible. He will soon see however, that new recruiting and income will dry up almost completely. This will cause him to react by changing things yet again by providing an incentive to recruit again or a commission on sales.

[drzod]

So from what I am reading it is just another carrot. It works from both ends. If you take the low entry method, you will cycle every 90 days (approx) until you hit $320. This has the psychological edge of allowing members to feel that they are making money, when in reality they are not. At the high end ($320+) it seems to be based on greed. The more $320 (whatever they will be called) you have the greater weekly percentage you can take. For a con man like Kim I have to give him credit. He keeps changing the rules and people still believe in him and his "business." The bottom line remains the same - keep putting money into YMMSS.

Is there any way we could start a thread about the evolution of YMMSS? It is much different now than it was 3 years ago, and I think showing the evolution would go a long way when it collapses as a ponzi.

In your experience, have any of you seen a ponzi evolve and last so long? It seems most fall apart by now, so Kim must have really done his homework on this one. It is just sad that despite all that is going on that members continue to be brainwashed and cannot see the forest through the trees.

[Gringo]

I'm not much of an expert on the histories of Ponzi's but I do know that a recent example is Easy Chair Club. YMMSS is following a very similiar evolution. ECC would design a new and improved matrix/doubler when the existing one stalled out. The new one would supposedly put everyone in profit that was out of pocket. In the last major colapse they said their attorney advised them to get away from the doubler type of program. When this happened, people flooded into YMMSS supposedly because it was so stable and long term.

Now they promote a variety of membership programs and many of them give incentives for recruiting or offer commission based sales. This is where I think YMMSS is heading. The other direction that Kim may try to take it is in creating is own labeled vitamin type products. He's already got the B12 thing going and there were several questions on the YMMSS survey asking about interest in YMMSS labeled products.

I wouldn't be suprised if he tried to put together a full line of products and create a hyped up MLM plan that would feed the CPA and get people out there recruiting and moving product.

[swishnev]

if people have been through this numerous times where these businesses fail why do they keep joining?

[Arzel]

if people have been through this numerous times where these businesses fail why do they keep joining?

Because people tend to blame themselves for the failure. "It didn't work because of something I did, or didn't do." While this is true for many things in life, it is not true for this type of scheme. So they keep trying thinking that it will work for them in the future. By itself people would eventually realize their mistake, however some people do make money, and they are the lure that bring other people into the mix.

I liken it to gambling, and seeing the guy next to you win every hand at Blackjack. You ask him his secret, and he tells a little bit. You win a hand, and it is all over. Even if you lose a ton, you still think you know how it works because you won a little bit that one time. And the thought of making so much money so easily makes it near impossible to realize the failure of your logic.

[swishnev]

i think you would probably have better odds playing blackjack at this point

[Mat_Watcher]

If you take the low entry method, you will cycle every 90 days (approx) until you hit $320. This has the psychological edge of allowing members to feel that they are making money, when in reality they are not.

New system no longer cycle money,but Discounted Advertising credits.
You buy 1,2,4,8,16,32 credits.
32 credits will become a profit share from next week.
All lowest will double their number value till 32 and be moved on Reading Fees Account.
Part of the CPA will be shared on all 32 credits shares of Reading Fees Account.

The raise or decrease of CPA will be balanced to match the raise of number of 32 credits generating profit shares.

The $10 purchases are the most important for both admin and affiliates.
Affiliates after 450 days will have new matured profits shares.
Admin will know 450 days before how much new shares will be introduced on that weeks and will try to keep the raise of CPA to balance the new added shares and keep the share value paid for each one close to the targeted amount.


The other direction that Kim may try to take it is in creating is own labeled vitamin type products. He's already got the B12 thing going and there were several questions on the YMMSS survey asking about interest in YMMSS labeled products.

I wouldn't be suprised if he tried to put together a full line of products and create a hyped up MLM plan that would feed the CPA and get people out there recruiting and moving product.

You cannot be surprised.
It is well explained on main site.
And this is why I said the model is not changed,just the payplan.
The main point missed out is that to fund the CPA once the first step was achieved ,severals new outside sources must be added.
Outside sources are splitted beetween not known operations on established millions $$$ markets and others sources providing everydays needs to people,not just for affiliates.
Everything people need can be labeled and keep funding CPA just buying what we buy everyday.

Many thanks

[Arzel]

Everything people need can be labeled and keep funding CPA just buying what we buy everyday.

Many thanks

Hello Amway....I mean the New YMMSS.

I still don't see how you can say the model hasn't changed. The model was double your money every 90 days.

What is it with YMMSS. Everytime they change something they state, "This is what we always planned on doing."

[swishnev]

The $10 purchases are the most important for both admin and affiliates

Of course they are because ymmss is relying on these new people in order to pay the others

[Mat_Watcher]

Hello Amway....I mean the New YMMSS.
Amway is far from this and this is not the place to talk about it
Keep funding the CPA with everydays needs do not means have to buy and then have to sell to everybody everythings.


I still don't see how you can say the model hasn't changed. The model was double your money every 90 days.

Maybe I'm incorrect as I do not know the correct meaning of business model.
If it means "how You will be paid",You're correct.
I mean tracking a way to run a business and develope it with needed steps.
Maybe it is the business plan,and not the model?


What is it with YMMSS. Everytime they change something they state, "This is what we always planned on doing."
That's its not correct.
Adding new income sources is not a change but part of the original plan.
The change was on payplan (still following my lines above),
and we cannot say they said was expected.
At least on this time.


Many thanks

[swishnev]

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying all the time mat watcher. please re-write that last post

[Mat_Watcher]

Of course they are because ymmss is relying on these new people in order to pay the others

If this was real,admin will benefits from $320 purchase more than $10.
The benefit for them is knowing when the $10 will becomes a profit share and try to match the raise of CPA with outside sources (they have 450 days to work for) to balance the increased numbers of shares to be paid.
Once the targeted amount for share paid will be know (close $25 week/share to match the old system?) the outside income sources will be balanced on more weeks when over $25 or kept in standby to match the new amount of maturing shraes coming into profit shares pool on nexts weeks.

Many thanks

[Mat_Watcher]

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying all the time mat watcher. please re-write that last post

Please ,will You quote my lines to be re-write?

Many thanks

[swishnev]

mat watcher, all of it, not to be rude but i'm having difficulties piecing together your english.

[Mat_Watcher]

mat watcher, all of it, not to be rude but i'm having difficulties piecing together your english.

We have both same problem for my english. :head:

The Business Plan of YMMSS ,for what I know,
is building and advertising entity to generate a cash flow.
That cash flow allow to pay affilates for reading ads,more part of it is used to generate new income sources.
Some of these income sources just feed the CPA from admin operations not known from affiliates.
Others income sources are added as new services and products sellers send part of earnings of their business to CPA.
Others services and products are going labeled to be sold worldwide and add the earnings to the CPA.

The advertising business is the tool both admin and affiliates have to achieve the main business concept of being no longer dependant from Advertising Business only.


I re-write it better now?

If yes next is for new system.
If not ,please refer to this post parts not enough clear.

Many thanks

[swishnev]

yes, thank you very much mat watcher, i appreciate it :)

[Mat_Watcher]

The new system.

Its not the money that will be cyceld but the advertising value You paid for.
$10 have 1 credits value,when it cycle after 90 days will have 2 credits value,then 4,then 8 then 16.
The next time it cycle it will be 32 credits value,removed from maturing cycling table and placed on new Readers Fees account.
The CPA funds (income from day1 to day7) will be splitted weekly on all units of 32 credits shares on Readers Fees Account.
So every 32 credits share will get the same % of money.
Increasing the number of 32 credits shares,the % paid for each is lowered.
Tp prevent this,
the $10 purchase is the best way for all.
When a $10 purchase is made,both affiliates and admin will know that 450 day after it will become a 32 credits share and generating profits.
If the targeted amount paid weekly for each share is $25 (to match old system)
admin will have to raise the CPA for the amount needed to pay newest shares added weekly from $10 purchases 450 days before.
i.e.
1000 $10 purchases on day1.
1000 x $25 =$25.000
$25.000 need to be added on next payng week after 450 days they were made.

The new income sources will not be all placed on the CPA ,but splitted on severals weeks if not kept part of them to match those new weekly shares matured from $10
and keep close to $25 paid weeklyfor each share .

For those not cycled from Nov.
The firsts weekly payments will reflect the value of the money they should have generated if the system was introduced on Nov.

If $320 position was on the ladder from 50 weeks,
the money paid on firsts weekly payments for that share will be:
if weekly payout = $25.
$25 x 50 weeks = $1,250

$1,250 will be splitted on more weeks and added to original amount of money due for that share equal to all others shares.
Something like :
week1 $25 + $250 = $275
week2 $25 + $250 = $275
week3 $25 + $250 = $275
week4 $25 + $250 = $275
week5 $25 + $250 = $275

$125 from actual share profit+ $1,250 for weeks past on the ladder without cycling.

Now is enough clear?

Many thanks

[swishnev]

clear as mud, i'm going to have to re-read through it a couple of times

[Mat_Watcher]

clear as mud, i'm going to have to re-read through it a couple of times
I had to rewrite it more of a couple of times :crazy:

Many thanks

[Arzel]

Yes, that is very clear, and I do not question what everyone would LIKE to happen, or what is even being told WILL happen. The real question becomes CAN it happen.

The original business plan was to have 100,000 people making $100,000+ a year to create an extremely valuable safelist of individuals with expendible income which would attract advertisers willing to pay large amounts to advertise to this 'safelist' of individuals.

Additional sources of income would be generated to assist in the paying of members, but much of this appears to be afterthoughts to the general plan.

The model which by the plan would be achieved was to pay members extremely well to read a modest amount of advertising a week, the amount was to be determined on the amount of advertisement purchased in the system. In additon to helping fund the CPA in the early stages of the business plan, this would also condition the membership to be dedicated readers of advertisement. This was also designed to promote member purchases from the system "the whole helping others theme". One other primary aspect was the collection of valuable demographic, socioeconomic indicators, and buying patterns of the group for use in marketing to large advertisers.

Would you say I have the "Plan" done pretty well? In theory the plan is not all that bad. Build a dedicated group of people willing to read advertisement and purchase stuff on the internet and market to them.

What I have a problem with is the way it is marketed and the model of the compensation. The original model used a ponzi structure to build a membership base. You may disagree with this assertation, but it is a fact that 95% or more the CPA money has come from exisitng members, and is simply a redistribution of wealth from one group to another. Very little, if any, actual outside money has been used to pay the CPA. This is a flawed model, as is currently being shown. Regardless of whether this model was designed to last forever, it was marketed as if it would. Thousands of people were mislead because of this.

The new model is supposed to fix the problem of cycle times (and your explanation does it justice), however it doesn't change the fact that the money coming in and going out is basically the same. The old model suffered from a basic mathmatical problem resulting from doubling money to infinity (exponential growth is required for a stable model - which is impossible). The new model suffers from the same problem. Exponential growth will be required to keep share value at a constant rate (ie money coming in and going out is still based off the same business plan).

Share value will never be $25, and most likely will not be $3. Over time the value will continue to decline, and no ammount of money in the world will be able to stop this inevitable problem.

The primary diference in the new model to the old model for the average member is that under the new model most members stand a chance to get some of their money back, but the average member will never break even (because too many people have already made a lot of money).

[Mat_Watcher]

I don't want jump on Ponzi scheme discussions.
I have just to say that in my Country part of my monthly income is sent ,without asking my permission to a statal service that should hold my money to resend me on monthly basis when I will no longer able to work.
Reality of books says that my money is used to pay actuals income for who is unable to work for age right now.
I can only hope someone will pay enough in the future to cover my income when too old for work.
Just to make it very nice,depending from the work You made,You can stop working and claim incomes earlier than others.
Also my income will be calculated not on how much I sent but on how much I sent last 5 years.
This means if I will have health problem and cannot work fulltime my last 5 working years,I will get an average of a parttime income,also if sent money as fulltime employed for 30 years before.
And If I 'm self employed and not send part of my income I'm legally guilty and heavy taxed ,if not will be closed my activity.

This is a REAL Ponzi scheme featured from my state.

And I know each country have them legal Ponzi scheme with obliged taxations.

And I can see a Ponzi scheme on severals business,on and offline ,also if fully legal and owned from who define Ponzi worlds.

About the infinity of cash flow needed to keep the business going ,still there is a good slices on Advertising Business that had to come.
Still there are lot of investment that can be made and being monitored along that period that may generate good part of cash flow.

The main project still have to be realized and if it will come up people can shop everydays on business partners shops and keep that money rolling over and over.

Maybe don't become riches,but people wealth can be increased.

A little story for us:

I have an uncle that have a jewels and golds objects singel shop.
His work was generating around $100.000/year.

Then comes up some plastic watches with no worth.
He started to sell them and offering discounts if people bring back to him old watches.

People give him gold watches to get 10 plastic watches.

it was tens years ago.

Now people love iron watch and iron objects with a name over.
They bring back gold watches and jewels to have some iron .

Where all this brings my uncle work?

22 new shops opened in 10 years.

Making over $5,000,000/year

22 small shops,less of 1/10 of my little country covered.

We are on Internet,we are millions and millions have to come around the world.
what amount can be generated next years just providing a place where advertise,where people may shop receiving back part of the money spent?

Call me a dreamer,but I would like to see this happening.

And I mean not to be rich,but at least not worried on how get the end of the month.

Many thanks

[Arzel]

I don't want jump on Ponzi scheme discussions.
I have just to say that in my Country part of my monthly income is sent ,without asking my permission to a statal service that should hold my money to resend me on monthly basis when I will no longer able to work.
Reality of books says that my money is used to pay actuals income for who is unable to work for age right now.
I can only hope someone will pay enough in the future to cover my income when too old for work.
Just to make it very nice,depending from the work You made,You can stop working and claim incomes earlier than others.
Also my income will be calculated not on how much I sent but on how much I sent last 5 years.
This means if I will have health problem and cannot work fulltime my last 5 working years,I will get an average of a parttime income,also if sent money as fulltime employed for 30 years before.
And If I 'm self employed and not send part of my income I'm legally guilty and heavy taxed ,if not will be closed my activity.

This is a REAL Ponzi scheme featured from my state.

And I know each country have them legal Ponzi scheme with obliged taxations.

And I can see a Ponzi scheme on severals business,on and offline ,also if fully legal and owned from who define Ponzi worlds.

About the infinity of cash flow needed to keep the business going ,still there is a good slices on Advertising Business that had to come.
Still there are lot of investment that can be made and being monitored along that period that may generate good part of cash flow.

The main project still have to be realized and if it will come up people can shop everydays on business partners shops and keep that money rolling over and over.

Maybe don't become riches,but people wealth can be increased.

A little story for us:

I have an uncle that have a jewels and golds objects singel shop.
His work was generating around $100.000/year.

Then comes up some plastic watches with no worth.
He started to sell them and offering discounts if people bring back to him old watches.

People give him gold watches to get 10 plastic watches.

it was tens years ago.

Now people love iron watch and iron objects with a name over.
They bring back gold watches and jewels to have some iron .

Where all this brings my uncle work?

22 new shops opened in 10 years.

Making over $5,000,000/year

22 small shops,less of 1/10 of my little country covered.

We are on Internet,we are millions and millions have to come around the world.
what amount can be generated next years just providing a place where advertise,where people may shop receiving back part of the money spent?

Call me a dreamer,but I would like to see this happening.

And I mean not to be rich,but at least not worried on how get the end of the month.

Many thanks

I will respond in two parts.

Ponzi (ie social security):

This comparison has been made numerous times, and probably will so as long as SS is a fact of life. However, this comparison is made without a full understanding of how it works. Whether you believe me or not, SS has a sound basis in mathmatical (statistical) models, and serves a valuable function in society, whereas ponzi schemes such as YMMSS do not.

The basic SS model is based off the life expectancy (LE) for the average person. When enacted the life expectancy in the US was no where near what it is now (part of the reason SS has become such a political buzzword over the past 20 years). The model is based off the pure fact that many people will never live long enough to collect their payments into the system. In the past this was not a problem because the LE was such that the average person would not live long enough to collect SS. However advances in medicine and basic improvements in water supply and sanitation have caused LE to increase dramatically. Additionally reproduction rates have fallen reducing the number of workers which would be around to pay into the SS funds.

While many people may consider SS (or whatever it is called in your country) a ponzi, the model is designed to not fall into the pitfalls of a ponzi model, and therefore cannot not be faithfully called a ponzi system. The solution to SS is quite simple, however not politically acceptable. A dramatic increase in the age at which SS may be collected would solve the current SS problems, whether this will happen is yet to be seen (in the US), but age limits have increased a moderate amount and will continue over the next decade.

Market Forces:

It is true that there is an untapped market for internet growth, but the general concensus is that this market has some time yet to be realized as it is mostly in third world countries without the infrastructure to build an adequate internet structure. There is more immediate growth potential in countries withint the asia rim, mostly China, but the current govermental forces within China limit a great deal their internet access. Hopefully this will change in the near future, but it cannot be counted on at this time.

In any case, the future growth is not INFINATE, which would be required by the ponzi structure within YMMSS. The basic problem with YMMSS is that the vast majority of income is from the members themselves. You may wish to believe that Kim will be able to produce the kinds of outside income amounts he is advertising, but what motivates the average person to do this?

His original payment model is flawed, everyone can see this now. The amounts of money which need to be generated are increadible, greater than the gross income of most businesses in the world. You are talking about a business that needs to generate, at a minimum, a quarter of a BILLION dollars over the next year just to create a stable share payment system. Outside investment alone will not be able to generate this kind of income, and given the current rate in growth of the retail and affiliate income it is just not plausible to believe it will happen in the future, if ever.

The membership of YMMSS is basically betting their finacial future on the back of one person that up until now has let down the majority of his members. Is it possible? Sure, I can think of a couple ways he can pull this off (but I don't think most people would like the answer). Will it happen? I would say your odds are better playing 00 on a roulette table 100 times in a row and coming out ahead.

[Dreamer]

A few points that I didnt see mentioned.

Government writes the laws, so therefore if they can deem something being illegial by the general public but is okay by the government. I'm sure people who konw alot about govt may be able to point to some examples, but I think that it is generally looked down upon by the govt for its citizens to form their own militia, etc. But, the government must do it to protect the people

Irregardless of Azrels assessment of Social Security, the government, with its socialistic nature, has deemed that everybody has a right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness, and government exists for the people to help the people. Fire stations, police, the school system. They help eldery aso by providing them a living income to surivive off of once they retire, or to provide them with health benefits when they need it most. If you want to dog SS, why not dog the police force? I havent called them up in years, so why is the government taking money out of my pocket?

Because its part of its budget to take care of its citizens. I believe that social security should be privized, however, no matter what happens, the government will always step in to do one of its fundamental issues of taking care of its citizens.

It is not a ponzi. It is not a pyramid. It is a socialistic agenda, and it is budgeted every year to provide for its citizens.

That said, is ymmss still a ponzi? You betcha.

There has been some calculations thrown around, and I'm not going to repeat any of them, but I think somebody said about $3/credit/week assuming a $500,000 week.

Thats not entirely true...kim still wants the people benefitting today to still benefit. So, at the 3 year mark, the average should be about 18 months, lets say, assuming the growth is average per month.

So, somebody that has been around since day 1, been involved for 18 months should receive about $6/share. Some been around for 9 months will receive $1.50/share. So, the expected payout based on $3/share for 36 monhis is:

Month $/320 based on $3/share
1 0.17
2 0.33
3 0.50
4 0.67
5 0.83
6 1.00
7 1.17
8 1.33
9 1.50
10 1.67
11 1.83
12 2.00
13 2.17
14 2.33
15 2.50
16 2.67
17 2.83
18 3.00
19 3.17
20 3.33
21 3.50
22 3.67
23 3.83
24 4.00
25 4.17
26 4.33
27 4.50
28 4.67
29 4.83
30 5.00
31 5.17
32 5.33
33 5.50
34 5.67
35 5.83
36 6.00

So, when has membership really jumped up? Lets just say 12 months ago (I dont have the membership data anymore close by) So, most people will probably earn about $1 - $2 per share based on $3/unit. But, now people like the new marketing director, who was making $320 every other day, how much does he plan to make?

Well, thats 45 positions on a 90 day cycle. I'm sure that kim probably padded his account nicely, but lets use 45 positions at $6/position. Hes making $270/week if nothing was fudged.

What about that lady that had 45 positions for 9 months? how much will she make per week? $67.50. Thats fair, right?

Ok. So, I want to buy 100 positions. I want a piece of this pie. I'm not going to wait the 457 days for it. So, I put in $32,000 so I can make alot of money. Well, this is going to cause more positions, as noted, so its even going to be less, but after my $32,000 investment, how much do I stand to make a week? $17. How long will it take to get my money back? 36 years. 72 years for it to double.

Ok, but as time flies, everybody will get more and more closer to earnings. So, the 36 months between me and guy #1 wont be as drastic in 10 years, or 72 years for that matter. But, u also have to figure that more people will join. And, will ymmss be able to sustain $500,000 a week?

Soley from $10 purchases, it would need 50,000 new purchases a week. Its not going o come from existing members because those positins are pretty much worthless, so it will be from new members. Even if new members bought 10 a week, that would require membership to grow by 5,000 a week.

Can we retail ads to do it? They havent figured out how to market their memberbase yet.

Ok, but back to my original numbers. I buy 100 $10 positions now and wait the 18 months. I put $1,000 into it, and just a waiting game.

So, in 18 months the site will be operational for 54 months. The average time waiting will be 27 months, and sticking with the $3/credit, I will be making $2/credit, so that 100 positions will make me $200/week, so in 5 weeks, I will break even, right?

Thats a horrible conclusion. That would assume that the payouts per week continued to grow at the rate that the reading credits grew. But it would have to grow much higher.

Lets say there are 100,000 positions currently. How much money did it take to generate that 100,000 position? Well, on average probably $320. Some just started with $320, some went $10-$20, etc. So, that 100,000 positions represents about $32million to come across. To double that will now only take $1million dollars, and of course a long waiting time. So, those 100,000 positions are actually very week compared to adding another 3.2million positions if the system doubles in the next 18months.

So, lets look at current trends (wow, i'm still this bored?) $500,000 a week. 4 weeks a month is $2,000,000. How much will come from outside sources this month? Lets say $500,000. So, this month, to keep trends, would require new purchases (not reinvestments, or whatever that was called) of $1.5million. That will be 150,000 extra $10 purchases, since a $320, or any other position is just not worth it. So, over the next 18 months, with everything remaining constant (history shows that its not constant but going downhill)...

18 months = 250,000 positions (approximately) with 11million waiting to be added. So, in 36 months, there will be about 11million positions.

So, in 18 months, with 250,000 positions, $500,000 payout per week, $2 average based on 27 months, each position purchased today would be about $1.25/week.

but every week a new 150,000 positions will come in.

Week 1: $1.34
Week 2: $0.84
Week 3: $0.61
Week 4: $0.48
Week 5: $0.39

this trend, to get back the original amount, will take 106 weeks, and to double ur money will take 178 years.

Okay i killed way too much time on this.

[Darius]

And got it totally wrong again - give in - get some rest

D

[Arzel]

And got it totally wrong again - give in - get some rest

D

Got what wrong?

I have a question for the pro-YMMSS crowd.

Now that the new compansation plan is coming out what reason would you have for introducing a new person to YMMSS? There is no more 3% referal, and each new person reduces your potential value of a 32 EPC.

[Gringo]

I have a question for the pro-YMMSS crowd.
Now that the new compansation plan is coming out what reason would you have for introducing a new person to YMMSS? There is no more 3% referal, and each new person reduces your potential value of a 32 EPC.

The answer from Kim:
The affiliate fees were done away with on the advice of our legal staff because of some laws in some states. To keep doing it would put YMMSS at risk. We are not going to do this.

People should promote because it is better for everyone and it is the right thing to do. If no one promotes then there will be less affiliates which means less advertising dollars that will feed the commission’s payable account. Everyone needs to get out of the “me” mentality and get in the “we” mentality.


Kim is about to learn very quickly that recruiting will drop substantially with no financial incentive other than some nebulous split of advertising sales, which as you point out is diluted with more people involved.

[Darius]

The answer from Kim:


Kim is about to learn very quickly that recruiting will drop substantially with no financial incentive other than some nebulous split of advertising sales, which as you point out is diluted with more people involved.

That is totally bogus.

Recruiting went down, percentage wise on the intro of 3% refferal comission!

From April 2004 to November the membership rose from 1400 to 12 - 14000.

Since then it has rose to 25000. You do the math.

The incentive? The reason I joined and the reason I recruited. To be helped and to help others financially. Pure and simple. I know that overwhelmingly YM people are described as blood sucking vampires in this forum but seriously, the reasons I have stated are true.



D

[Arzel]

That is totally bogus.

Recruiting went down, percentage wise on the intro of 3% refferal comission!

From April 2004 to November the membership rose from 1400 to 12 - 14000.

Since then it has rose to 25000. You do the math.

The incentive? The reason I joined and the reason I recruited. To be helped and to help others financially. Pure and simple. I know that overwhelmingly YM people are described as blood sucking vampires in this forum but seriously, the reasons I have stated are true.



D

What? There has been a 3% referral for most of the time frame you mentioned, are you saying the 3% referral had a negative effect? Please restate your statement, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If I am to understand you correctly, from 1,400 to 12,000/14,000 there was no 3% and from then until now 25,000/26,000 there has been.

no 3%

10,600 to 12,600 (April to November - 6 to 8 months depending on how you count)

3%

11,000 to 14,000 (November to Mid-July - 7.5 to 8.5 months depending on how you count)

In any case the two are pretty much statistically equal. Considering that cycle times have been rising the whole of the second period I would say that the 3% had an effect.


The only blood sucking people are those that are have been making a killing off those that have no chance to ever get their money back. And really not all of them were, because they didn't understand the nature of the ponzi. But there were many that did, they know the game, and understand the "Get in, double, get out" mentality.

[Dreamer]

Somebody said that somebody else was wrong. If it was me, please point to where I was wrong, because I have just written down what kimmy said regarding the length of wait, that again, benefits the early birds as opposed to the newbies.

[Darius]

Hi

Okay, the 3% only came on, in the latter end of 2004.

The rise of membership from 1400 - 12,000 is greater than the rise 12,000 - 25000. If you look at it proportionally. 9 times rise opposed to double rise. (Poor termonology but I hope you follow)

I understand that regulars in this forum would find it hard to understand that YM members would do things for the common good, but they do. 3% was no incentive to me. Almost all of those whom I have sponsored, have been before the 3% intro. I sponsored to help people.

D

[surfer]

There's always been a recruiting fee available.

Before the 3%, you could collect $10 or $11
directly from your recruit. You also had the
option of waving the affiliate fee and not taking
the commission.

Of course, if the legal team truly "put their foot
down, the 3% should be gone right now.

It's either a legal issue or it's not. :head:

Here is another reason that it's a load of B.S.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with paying
commissions on the sale of a legitimate product
or service.

Some affiliate programs have more than one tier
where you make overrides on the sales of the
people below you. Of course, I actually sell
stuff to people outside the business, unlike those
in YMMSS.

Kim takes away member's 3% but as of this point
he keeps his $10 for every new recruit. Such
integrity. lol

[Gringo]

That is totally bogus.
Recruiting went down, percentage wise on the intro of 3% refferal comission!
From April 2004 to November the membership rose from 1400 to 12 - 14000.
Since then it has rose to 25000. You do the math.


The problem now is that the program is much more complex and clearly not as attractive as the old, "double your money every 90 days" theme. Given this, people aren't about to flock to it the way they did earlier. Membership has peaked out, all the easy pickins have been had. Growth has maxed out and stagnated as happens with all ponizis eventually. This means bringing more in will require much more marketing than the quick growth via word of mouth that was experienced before.

With no financial incentive and having been burned once already in not keeping the "double every 90 days" committment, few members will do any sort of recruiting anytime soon. At best they will wait and see what the real earnings are before trying to "help" anyone else.

[Arzel]

Hi

Okay, the 3% only came on, in the latter end of 2004.

The rise of membership from 1400 - 12,000 is greater than the rise 12,000 - 25000. If you look at it proportionally. 9 times rise opposed to double rise. (Poor termonology but I hope you follow)

I understand that regulars in this forum would find it hard to understand that YM members would do things for the common good, but they do. 3% was no incentive to me. Almost all of those whom I have sponsored, have been before the 3% intro. I sponsored to help people.

D

I see what you are saying now. This is a common mistake people make when looking at growth rate, and percentage change can be very misleading. Because the two time periods are related you have an issue called autocorrelation when looking at change over time.

One way to analyze the two time periods would be to look at monthly member ship growth and compare the slopes of the two, but I will have to do a little research to make sure that is statistically correct. I think salsa has the actual monthly or weekly data for membership growth which could be used to analyze and determine if the two time periods are statistically different.

However, the method which you used to analyze the two time periods is incorrect. This page (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2563&page=5&pp=10) has a graph by Salsa which you can see the growth, it is difficult to determine exactly by looking, but it doesn't appear that the slopes between the two time periods would be statistically different, plus the growth in cycle times will also have to be accounted for.

[Darius]

Before the 3%, you could collect $10 or $11
directly from your recruit. You also had the
option of waving the affiliate fee and not taking
the commission.

Of course, if the legal team truly "put their foot
down, the 3% should be gone right now.

It's either a legal issue or it's not.

Yes, $11 was not really an issue when signing up family and friends, the 3% gave a depth to commissions that most were not looking for, but it was a nice bonus.

On the question of legality. It is legal to have 1 level of commissions in most countries and specifically in a lot of US states. However, that type of commission is not legal in some states and in some countries.

More trouble than it's worth if you ask me.

That could be true for many things. For example - In some places you can marry at 16, in others it's 18 or 21 legal age for marriage.

Just because you marry in one place at 16, doesn't make you criminal.

D

[Trinket]

I’ve been a YMMSS affiliate for over 14 months. Under the original business model, I was paid and cycled multiple times within the 90 day time frame. YMMSS was the ONLY “work from home” business that ever paid me! Yes, things changed. People were joining left and right to get in on the “doubling” mania. Well, YMMSS grew too fast to keep up with the 60-90 days cycles after 2-1/2 years in business. Now it is vital to restructure for the good of everyone.

Other “turncoat” YMMSS members (I recognize some of you) have whined here all about everything, so there’s no need for me to go into all that again.

HOWEVER, Kim Inman didn’t fold up his tent and disappear, either. He STILL plans for 100,000 affiliates earning $100,000 or more per year. He is STILL HERE and available to members on conference calls every week. He isn’t hiding from anyone.

Kim & Co. are in the process of revamping YMMSS for the better for EVERYONE. I always wondered how we could double to infinity without crashing at some point. Well, that was what was starting to happen. Any business owner needs to reinvest in his/her business consistently. I’ve been self-employed for a long time and know how a business has to be nurtured. Sometimes, you have to make changes for the better when roadblocks fall in your path.

Can you imagine being Kim Inman for the past 6-8 months with all the negative posts and comments? I’m sure it was devastating for him and his family. Money isn’t everything and if you believe he’s in this for the money, you’re DREAMING, and know nothing at all about the man.

What do you think it costs to run YMMSS? No member has ever been asked for a PENNY to help pay for multiple websites, servers, web staff, money to pay employees, conference calling, chat and conference rooms, etc., etc. Do you think that money falls out of the sky? (Any other Internet business would be into YOUR pocket for many of these valuable services – I know; “been there, done that”).

Those of you that got kicked out (gee, what did you DO? :eek: ), and those that want out, just try to find something BETTER than YMMSS. You won’t and you already know that. You think you’ve been scammed. You HAVE NOT been scammed. You just have to WAIT some more. I know, it’s been a difficult year for YMMSS and many of the affiliates. I’ve had my ups and downs, too. But I stayed plugged in. Am a regular reader and poster in the ymforums and know I’m part of something important. Being patient will pay off handsomely. YMMSS is going to prosper and everyone whose part of it will also prosper. It’s not get rich overnight. But you CAN get pretty wealthy over time. And not too MUCH time, either.

Stop bashing Kim and YMMSS and be patient a LITTLE longer and see how this new commission plan pays out. You will be glad you didn’t bail out.

Okay. I guess I’m done, for NOW! LOL!

Cheers!
Trinket

[weirdid]

Money isn’t everything and if you believe he’s in this for the money, you’re DREAMING, and know nothing at all about the man.

Kim manages to cream 22% off the top of everything, YMMSS is a great business for him.

[Darius]

KIm does not take 22%!

11% goes to admin, including Kim and 11% is venture capital.

D

[Otherguy]

Do you think that money falls out of the sky?

Thanks for your post Trinket, it was probably the most lucid and well thought out post from a pro-YMMSS person I have seen here or on YMFORUMS. I hope you stick around and debate the issues with us some more. Although at the moment I cannot for the life of me see how YMMSS can work, I consider myself open-minded and would love to be proved wrong.

My first question for you concerns your faith in Kims ability to generate the many millions in outside revenue needed to sustain YMMSS. What gives you the faith that he will do this? Has he past experience in doing this, or do you believe he will because he is honourable and he intends to?

Another way to phrase the question might be "What advantages does Kim have over other entrepeneurs who are also trying to make many millions with roughly the same starting capital?"

[Arzel]

I’ve been a YMMSS affiliate for over 14 months. Under the original business model, I was paid and cycled multiple times within the 90 day time frame. YMMSS was the ONLY “work from home” business that ever paid me! Yes, things changed. People were joining left and right to get in on the “doubling” mania. Well, YMMSS grew too fast to keep up with the 60-90 days cycles after 2-1/2 years in business. Now it is vital to restructure for the good of everyone.

Ponzi schemes cannot grow to fast, they can only grow too slow.


HOWEVER, Kim Inman didn’t fold up his tent and disappear, either. He STILL plans for 100,000 affiliates earning $100,000 or more per year. He is STILL HERE and available to members on conference calls every week. He isn’t hiding from anyone.


He can plan whatever he wants, but there is no way he will have 100,000 people making $100,000+ a year from this. That is $10 billion+ dollars a year, and completely unreasonable.


Kim & Co. are in the process of revamping YMMSS for the better for EVERYONE. I always wondered how we could double to infinity without crashing at some point. Well, that was what was starting to happen. Any business owner needs to reinvest in his/her business consistently. I’ve been self-employed for a long time and know how a business has to be nurtured. Sometimes, you have to make changes for the better when roadblocks fall in your path.

The fact that you wondered about the doubling to infinity should be enough warning to yourself. Don't you ever ask yourself why Kim didn't realize this right away? Or why something wasn't done 7 months ago when the trend became apparent?

This isn't even his idea, this is a member idea.


Can you imagine being Kim Inman for the past 6-8 months with all the negative posts and comments? I’m sure it was devastating for him and his family. Money isn’t everything and if you believe he’s in this for the money, you’re DREAMING, and know nothing at all about the man.


SO now we should feel sorry for him? He advertises a company that will produce 100,000 people making $100,000 a year, and you say people, including Kim, are not in if for the money?


What do you think it costs to run YMMSS? No member has ever been asked for a PENNY to help pay for multiple websites, servers, web staff, money to pay employees, conference calling, chat and conference rooms, etc., etc. Do you think that money falls out of the sky? (Any other Internet business would be into YOUR pocket for many of these valuable services – I know; “been there, done that”).


Why should YMMSS ask for anything to run the business, that makes no sense at all. Besides 22% is taken off the top. 11% for Kim and administration fees (to run the business). Another 11% for Kim to invest in outside revenue (which is his to keep if he wants, and this is documented so you can't say it is not.)


Those of you that got kicked out (gee, what did you DO? :eek: ), and those that want out, just try to find something BETTER than YMMSS. You won’t and you already know that. You think you’ve been scammed. You HAVE NOT been scammed. You just have to WAIT some more. I know, it’s been a difficult year for YMMSS and many of the affiliates. I’ve had my ups and downs, too. But I stayed plugged in. Am a regular reader and poster in the ymforums and know I’m part of something important. Being patient will pay off handsomely. YMMSS is going to prosper and everyone whose part of it will also prosper. It’s not get rich overnight. But you CAN get pretty wealthy over time. And not too MUCH time, either.

Stop bashing Kim and YMMSS and be patient a LITTLE longer and see how this new commission plan pays out. You will be glad you didn’t bail out.

Okay. I guess I’m done, for NOW! LOL!

Cheers!
Trinket

Be patient a little longer seems to be the battle cry of YMMSS, I wonder if it will still be used a year from now (assuming YMMSS even last that long), when the weekly payments are less than $1 per 32 EPC and the $19 million a week doesn't appear.

[Dreamer]

You should be happy that we bash kimmy here. Under the new system, the less new members that join ymmss the more money you will make. And, if it is a legit business, it will not need new membership to increase to pay everybody. So, you should be thanking us for trying to get people to not sign up.

I look forward to ur public thanking.

[Salsa]

Thanks for your post Trinket, it was probably the most lucid and well thought out post from a pro-YMMSS person I have seen here or on YMFORUMS.Lucid?! Well, perhaps, compared to other YMMSS defenders, but describing the post as lucid is something I wasn't prepared for!

I've been a YMMSS affiliate for over 14 months. Under the original business model, I was paid and cycled multiple times within the 90 day time frame.Trinket, if you joined May 1, 2004 ("over 14 months ago"), your earliest positions have cycled three times, and only twice "within the 90 day time frame." Any positions purchased after May 30, 2004 have cycled only once "within the 90 day time frame." "Multiple times" is a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it?

YMMSS was the ONLY "work from home" business that ever paid me!This means only that you seem to be attracted to "work from home" scams, not "work from home" businesses. That's hardly an endorsement for YMMSS.

Yes, things changed. People were joining left and right to get in on the "doubling" mania. Well, YMMSS grew too fast to keep up with the 60-90 days cycles after 2-1/2 years in business.If you have a basic understanding of how YMMSS works, you should understand that its failures over the past eight months was caused by too few people joining and buying, not too many! This is why the upper echelon of YMMSS has placed so much emphasis on recruiting new members. So think twice about blurting out nonsense like that if you care to establish any credibility among thinking people.

HOWEVER, Kim Inman didn't fold up his tent and disappear, either. He STILL plans for 100,000 affiliates earning $100,000 or more per year. He is STILL HERE and available to members on conference calls every week. He isn't hiding from anyone.No he hasn't, and why would he--yet? Kim's Money Machine Success System is still lining his pockets to the tune of six figures a month. What does it prove that he hasn't disappeared--yet?

And of course he's talking to members. That's what con men do! I think that many people don't understand that the con in con man is an abbreviation for confidence. The primary "job" of a confidence man is to befriend and win the confidence of others for the express purpose of victimizing them to his benefit. That is Kim's job, so it's not "productive" for him to do that and be in hiding, too!

I always wondered how we could double to infinity without crashing at some point.Have you ever wondered why Kim never seemed to wonder about this? Have you ever wondered why he was still saying--even last month--that the system was working exactly as planned, that it was designed to work indefinitely and that the then current glitches would correct themselves without changes to the system? It's because he knew from the beginning that it couldn't work indefinitely. Anyone familiar with such systems--much less someone who created one--would have to know. Kim knew. His whole agenda was to mislead and lie to people in order to get them to join so he could take their money.

Can you imagine being Kim Inman for the past 6-8 months with all the negative posts and comments? I'm sure it was devastating for him and his family. Money isn't everything and if you believe he's in this for the money, you're DREAMING, and know nothing at all about the man.No. I cannot imagine being Kim Inman. I have a heart and soul--which are things that he seems to be lacking. And if you believe he's not in this for the money, you're DREAMING, and you know nothing real and important about the man. If you doubt this, just try to get him to give back some of the $30,000,000.00 he's taken from his YMMSS victims.

What do you think it costs to run YMMSS?Not much. Why do you think that Kim offers no financial reports for the "business"? It's because they would show what a scam it is. Practically the whole thing is a virtual "business," selling a product for $10 that costs virtually nothing to produce. Servers are super cheap these days, and most of the programming is apparently off the shelf or written by amateurs. Heck, Kim even seems to be too cheap to hire someone to update the simplest ymmss.com pages on anything but the most irregular schedule. The "commissions to date" page was recently six months out of date. Now it's gone completely. Too much trouble I guess.

No member has ever been asked for a PENNY to help pay for multiple websites, servers, web staff, money to pay employees, conference calling, chat and conference rooms, etc., etc.Why ask? Kim has taken more from YMMSS than all members put together.

Do you think that money falls out of the sky?No I don't. Why do you believe Kim when he says, in essence, that it will?

Given Kim's history, I believe that he feels nothing but contempt for the members who he has convinced that money will fall out of the sky and into their pockets if only they give YMMSS (him) what little they have or can borrow. His "business plan" offers no better explanation than that the huge amounts of money needed to perpetuate it will fall from the sky, and yet you believe him.

Stop bashing Kim and YMMSS and be patient a LITTLE longer and see how this new commission plan pays out.We already know how it's going to play out. Perhaps not the details, but the basic structure of the scheme is as flawed as ever and spells only doom for YMMSS and even more member money lost to Kim.

In reading this, you may not immediately recognize that I'm one of the most optimistic guys that you'll ever come across, and I always try to look on the bright side of things. In the case of YMMSS, the bright side is that only some 25,000 people have fallen for the scam. That's less than 0.0004% of the population! Not long ago, before so many people had gained the experience and wisdom to run from con men like Kim Inman, tens or hundreds of thousands more people would have fallen into his web.

So the good news is that ever more people are becoming sophisticated enough to steer away from the likes of Kim Inman and YMMSS.

Thanks to Matrix watch for playing its part.

Salsa
_______________

[Trinket]

Okay. Trinket is back. I will respond to each of you who commented on my post.

Weridid:
I beg your pardon? You didn’t READ my post. Money doesn’t “fall out of the sky” to pay for running a business; There are BILLS TO PAY, full-time legal team, salaries, benefits, etc. and money consistently going into investments that will directly benefit all affiliates. Geez. :shake:

Otherguy:
THANK YOU! First, like I said, YMMSS paid me (actually cycled my positions) like clockwork during my first 7 months (cycle days were 68 days). I was not asked to dig into my pocket for back-end fees (most ALL other internet businesses routinely do that after they “snare” you). That’s why I have faith in Kim Inman. For 3 years now, Kim has put 11% of new purchases into investment instruments for future income streams that are starting to materialize. We now have a full-time CFO managing that part of the business. Just recently, a full-time Retail Manager to get the retail advertising business going. Kim brings experienced, professional people on board to help position YMMSS for success and pays them appropriately. A team of professionals is vital to any growing business.

I don’t know about “other” entrepreneurs and what they are trying to do, but without a strong, commited, focused team of professionals, any business will eventually collapse. If Kim tried to do EVERYTHING himself, I would really worry about THAT.

So, I firmly believe that I’ve found the RIGHT business to be in, despite the many problems we faced this year. The “growing pains”, I believe, will be well worth the wait in the not-too-distant future. :)

Arzel:
Well, I’m not going to repeat myself. I did wonder about the doubling after I fully understood how the YMMSS business model worked, but had never even heard of “doublers” until about 8 mo. ago. (I was in a “scam” gifting program for 2 years and didn’t even look at any other Internet programs).

You seem to know all the answers so you must have a crystal ball? LOL! You have your mind made up so there’s really nothing more for me to say. Except, were you or ARE you a YMMSS member? If so, you may as well stick around and see how this all plays out. If not, just find another Internet Business that you can TRUST. How are you gonna do THAT? :eek:

Dreamer:
I really don’t even know how I want to respond to your post other than to say you just don’t see the “big picture”. That’s obvious.

Salsa:
Oh my…. You also must have a crystal ball. I certainly don’t get the impression that you are an optimistic guy! Anything BUT. You also have made up your mind so there’s really nothing to say I haven’t said already. :shake:

Okay. I’m done! Gee, that was fun! Until next time....

Regards,
Trinket

[Arzel]

Okay. Trinket is back. I will respond to each of you who commented on my post.

Arzel:
Well, I’m not going to repeat myself. I did wonder about the doubling after I fully understood how the YMMSS business model worked, but had never even heard of “doublers” until about 8 mo. ago. (I was in a “scam” gifting program for 2 years and didn’t even look at any other Internet programs).

You seem to know all the answers so you must have a crystal ball? LOL! You have your mind made up so there’s really nothing more for me to say. Except, were you or ARE you a YMMSS member? If so, you may as well stick around and see how this all plays out. If not, just find another Internet Business that you can TRUST. How are you gonna do THAT? :eek:

Okay. I’m done! Gee, that was fun! Until next time....

Regards,
Trinket

No I am not and never have been a member of YMMSS or any other internet get rich quick scam.

I may not have a crystal ball, but I think my mathmatical models are just as good, and certainly better than Kim's were at predicting cycle times.

How did you come to the conclusion that the gift program was a scam, and that YMMSS is not?

[Kolotwicz]

It's fairly typical that Trinket got slammed and criticised in here by most of you and none of you have been banned. But when I criticise you guy's, I get banned.

You may not believe in 'doublers' but you do operate double standards.

Bob, aka Alan and Darius (and whatever else you can think of)

[Salsa]

Salsa:
Oh my.... You also must have a crystal ball. I certainly don't get the impression that you are an optimistic guy! Anything BUT. You also have made up your mind so there's really nothing to say I haven't said already.No crystal ball here. I'm just representing the facts. And, much to my disappointment, they do not lead me to be optimistic about YMMSS. I do admit that I am limited by the quality of information available to me. For example, when you said that you had been a YMMSS member for over 14 months, I assumed that you might have joined in early May, last year. Now you say that you once cycled in 68 days, which means you must have purchased those EPCs between March 24-26, 2004, nearly sixteen months ago. That did throw off my calculations of your cycles by a little bit, but no biggie. Just like an analysis of YMMSS as a whole, such vagaries don't affect the ultimate end result: doom for YMMSS.

It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that, only the ability to understand and face some little bit of reality. Math helps, as does some understanding of human nature.

As for changing my mind, or at least opening it to the possibility that YMMSS might be viable, that could easily be done if just one person would explain how YMMSS could possibly be made to work. So far, no one has.

Your own defense of YMMSS boils down to your confidence in one man, a reputed scammer who has been caught in myriad lies with regard to YMMSS. Not a very good defense, much less an eye-opening argument on YMMSS's behalf.

Please try again, and give us some substance on how YMMSS can possibly fulfill its promise. If you can do that, it would shake the world. It could be a bigger deal, even, than Einstein's general theory of relativity.

Salsa
____________

[ycchen]

Your [trinket] own defense of YMMSS boils down to your confidence in one man, a reputed scammer who has been caught in myriad lies with regard to YMMSS. Not a very good defense, much less an eye-opening argument on YMMSS's behalf.

Salsa The more I argue with the belivers of pyramid/ponzi scam, the more I understand how to become a good con artist. ;)

A bad con artist lies and get smatch in no time. A good con artist lies, builds a small army of belivers who in turn help to create a cult, and rally (recruit) more newbies/donors into the scam, and cycle themselves.

On the surface, they are just protecting the reputation of a good businessman, but in fact, they are crucial part of the "infrastructure" of the whole scam! Without them, Kim won't be able to get so many newbies to donate their money.

So, why should we continue to debate with these supporters in this public forum?

For me, the main purpose is not to convince them since they are already part of the scam infrastructure (with some trully exception, I believe). It will never happen because too much interest is at stake.

I think the main purpose of the debate is for those "rational" readers to make a better judgement after reading the debate. These readers might benefit from the debate because they can see both side of the story, and make their own rational judgement.

I am sure you know all these already. I just hope the supporters have the same idea in their mind when they are making non-rational (e.g. Kim is god, so trust him) arguement. Their credibility is losing out everything they do just that (Kim is god, so trust him) and nothing else.

Okay, what I want to say is: good job, Salsa! You might have convinced one more person who is reading the debate that YMMSS is a real scam because its supporters can't make any rational counter arguement other than protecting their savior. :applause:

[Dreamer]

I will oficially stop calling ymmss a scam (I wont go over to the dark side though, or become a supporter) when one simple condition is met.

If kim believes in his business and really sincerly wants to make people money, than he should have no problem offering a full refund, or a prorated cashout of their epcs, or whatever they will now be called.

Can he not afford it? Well, He's taken $30million from the $90million paid out (so, $120million was used to pay off $90million), and I think it was estimated that 30% of the moneys came out of the sytem, and the other 70% was reinvested. So, about $30million was actually paid out to members. And, now that EPCs have no value, kim just took out $60million into his own pocket, so he should be able to pay off everybody who no longer has faith in the business.

When this happens, I will stop thinking its a scam.

[ycchen]

If what Dreamer described does happen, I will issue an official apology to Kim and his colleages on the front page of New York Times! ;)

I think victims have better chance of collecting some money back if they file a class lawsuit now before Kim dumps all his stolen assets into buying another holiday resort! :(

People, it is time to act and not wait.

[sisco50]

I will oficially stop calling ymmss a scam (I wont go over to the dark side though, or become a supporter) when one simple condition is met.

If kim believes in his business and really sincerly wants to make people money, than he should have no problem offering a full refund, or a prorated cashout of their epcs, or whatever they will now be called.

Can he not afford it? Well, He's taken $30million from the $90million paid out (so, $120million was used to pay off $90million), and I think it was estimated that 30% of the moneys came out of the sytem, and the other 70% was reinvested. So, about $30million was actually paid out to members. And, now that EPCs have no value, kim just took out $60million into his own pocket, so he should be able to pay off everybody who no longer has faith in the business.

When this happens, I will stop thinking its a scam.

Unfortunately that still would not prove that it is not a scam. Actually, it may look good to some if refunds were the order of the day. More people might join and get sucked dry thinking they can always get their money back if they want. But the refunds would ofcourse be stopped after an influx of additional monies. Kind of like baiting the hook and reeling them in.

[drzod]

Kim also needs to have a consistent refund policy. If you read the posts on this site, you will note that both Swishnev and myself have been kicked out of YMMSS. Swishnev was given a refund and I was not.

The only difference between the two us is our postings on this site. We both asked similar questions on the gold, silver, and general forums, in addition to YM forums. The mods at YMMSS came here, read my postings, and made the determination to not issue a refund.

Base your refund policy on posts to your own site and not those elsewhere. I understand YMMSS has a reputation to uphold, but hunting down members here and kicking them out based on what they say does nothing but create bad blood.

On a different note, even pro YMMSS members on this site acknowledge negative comments by YMMSS members. Where are they? You delete them all the time. If I was looking to join YMMSS based solely on posts to YM Forums, I would have no idea of the concerns below the surface. Everyone is happy and things are working exactly the way they should. This is not the case, or the commission structure would not have changed. Why not debate these openly? Allowing members to voice concerns would be a great opportunity for you to show the merits of YMMSS. Just make sure you use facts and figures, and not generalizations and promises.

[sisco50]

If what Dreamer described does happen, I will issue an official apology to Kim and his colleages on the front page of New York Times! ;)

I think victims have better chance of collecting some money back if they file a class lawsuit now before Kim dumps all his stolen assets into buying another holiday resort! :(

People, it is time to act and not wait.

Hmmm Front page of the New York Times would be rather expensive. :)

[Trinket]

Hi Arzel,
I'm shocked! :eek: You've never been in an Internet business? What is the attraction then, for your regular posts in this site? Are you retired? Maybe you looked at YMMSS and found something negative? Just curious.

The "gifting" program I was in was run by a clown named "Q". They were into everybody's pocket regularly: Member fees (every 6 mo.), monitor fees, website fees, as well as other out-of-pocket costs necessary for me to stay in business. YMMSS doesn't do that.

Hi Salsa,
I base my trust and faith on the past success I had in YMMSS prior to the start of our troubles late in 2004. I, too, wondered if we were doomed. Yes, under the old system, I believe we were. I'm being cautiously optimistic with the coming new structure and how it will play out. I have a tidy sum in YMMSS so I really have no choice but to stay put and ride it out.

I only know what I learn from Kim & Team and will trust that they are acting in our best interest and that of all affiliates. I really do feel that they ARE.

No crystal ball here, either.

Respectfully,
Trinket

[Arzel]

Hi Arzel,
I'm shocked! :eek: You've never been in an Internet business? What is the attraction then, for your regular posts in this site? Are you retired? Maybe you looked at YMMSS and found something negative? Just curious.

The "gifting" program I was in was run by a clown named "Q". They were into everybody's pocket regularly: Member fees (every 6 mo.), monitor fees, website fees, as well as other out-of-pocket costs necessary for me to stay in business. YMMSS doesn't do that.

Respectfully,
Trinket

No, I not retired.

I have a friend/co-worker that it quite intelligent, and he and I tend to have some very interesting discussions regarding the psychology and social nature of people under given situations. We have had a number of discussions over the past 6 or 7 years, but one discussion about 3 years ago was quite interesting. For the most part we agree in principle on what many of the problems we as humans have, but tend to argue the proper solution to these problems.

One specific discussion regarded what you would do when presented an opportunity to take advantage of someone else, where your understanding of some process would allow you to benefit against people that did not understand. His basic philosophy is that stupid people do not deserve to have money, and that survival of the fittest should remove these people for the better good of human survival. My philosphy is that naive people should be informed by those that do understand.

He came across a matrix site shortly about this time, and we were talking about it. His take was "what idiots! I should open up my own site, if these people are too stupid to not know what is going on, they deserve to lose their money, and if they are going to lose it, it might as well be me that gets it." My take was "The people running those scams should be put away. Just because the victims don't understand what is going on is no reason to take from them. Besides, when those people suffer that affects us all to some degree in higher taxes to provide increased social services, and financial issues regarding banktrupcies and the like."

He didn't agree with me, and said he was going to work on developing a site anyway. I told him I would make sure that if he did and I found out I would make sure that site went down and was exposed.

We didn't talk to each other for quite a while. I was actually quite shocked by his take. He truely didn't think he would be doing anything wrong, and it made me realize that there are many people just like him. If given the opportunity they will take everything you have, simply because they can. And they rationalize it by thinking "If they are too stupid to figure it out, they deserve to lose their money, besides they will lose it anyway."

The night after we had our major arguement I started searching the Internet for matrix sites, and as soon as I found a forum I started to work to expose them for what they are. After a while when EZExpo went down I went back to my co-worker/friend and told him that I had been working to bring down the matrix sites, and that the one he mentioned had collapsed thanks to the work we had done.

I know first hand the mind of a scam artist in making, and believe me if I was not working against his ideology he would have a site up somewhere scamming people. The really scary aspect is that he is a good person in general, he just has a warped (in my eyes) sense of morality, and he could easily create a site like YMMSS if he wanted, only I think he would do a better job.

So, I don't search for the scams, I seach for people like him, because they are the best scam artists around, at the same time I have kept him from trying to start a scam, because he knows that I would bring him down and have no remorse in doing so. Now he is my best source of information. He still has the desire, but no longer the drive to act on it, so he does the next best thing. He asks me about specific programs, and then asks me how long it will last before it crashes to see if it is worth investing, and he is how I found out about YMMSS.

[Salsa]

Hi Salsa,
I base my trust and faith on the past success I had in YMMSS prior to the start of our troubles late in 2004. I, too, wondered if we were doomed. Yes, under the old system, I believe we were. I'm being cautiously optimistic with the coming new structure and how it will play out. I have a tidy sum in YMMSS so I really have no choice but to stay put and ride it out.

I only know what I learn from Kim & Team and will trust that they are acting in our best interest and that of all affiliates. I really do feel that they ARE.

No crystal ball here, either.

Respectfully,
TrinketTrinket, I can appreciate your situation. I'll only encourage you to keep your own mind open to a possible dark side of Kim & Team so that you can mitigate any possible damages as best you can.

Even though you joined YMMSS over a year ago and experienced some cycling, I figured that you were not yet operating in the black. Even if you started out purchasing $320's, if you set any of them to repurchase for even one cycle, that would put you in pretty bad shape. Plus, I assume that you've purchased more EPCs as you've been able, which has put you in the red even more.

The way these things work is to show you some success early on (in order to build your confidence), thus encouraging you reinvest what you've already earned, plus more. YMMSS concepts like the smaller positions of $10, $20, $40... and suggesting goals like the "magic number" of 79 positions make it all that much harder to get into the black--and easier to get deeper and deeper into the red.

Trust Kim & Team if you must, but please put your own interests before them, and continue doing due diligence. You may not like what you find, but later you'll like it even less. You owe it to yourself, now.

I wish you well,
Salsa
__________________

[Deso]

One specific discussion regarded what you would do when presented an opportunity to take advantage of someone else, where your understanding of some process would allow you to benefit against people that did not understand. His basic philosophy is that stupid people do not deserve to have money, and that survival of the fittest should remove these people for the better good of human survival. My philosphy is that naive people should be informed by those that do understand.




Arzel,
Your friend would do well to realise that his comment could apply to Doctors,Dentists, Plumbers, Electricans alike. I take it he would not complain at a plumbers bill of £100 for changing a washer in his tap (faucet)? Or a Dentists bill for a tooth removal? :shake: After all, I assume his knowledge would not extend to removing his own teeth would it?
Anyway, Im sure you can see my point, and I agree with your philosophy :D

[Arzel]

Arzel,
Your friend would do well to realise that his comment could apply to Doctors,Dentists, Plumbers, Electricans alike. I take it he would not complain at a plumbers bill of £100 for changing a washer in his tap (faucet)? Or a Dentists bill for a tooth removal? :shake: After all, I assume his knowledge would not extend to removing his own teeth would it?
Anyway, Im sure you can see my point, and I agree with your philosophy :D

:) Although he is not atune to remove his own teeth, he would not for a second pay for someone to do his plumbing or electrical work, unless it was absolutely something he could not do himself (and with his ego, there is not much). I do understand your point, and it is a constant issue of discussion between us.

On a side note, I am glad you have decided not to invest into YMMSS. :)

[Dreamer]

I made this offer on another thread. If anybody would like to post anything here regarding ymmss, or really anything for that matter, but dont want your name/ip/whatever attached to it, you can mail me, and I'll post it under my own name. I wont censor it if it goes against my beliefs, or anything, and I will not make available to anybody who sent me anything. However, if it breaks the TOU here than I will not post it...sorry alan xxvii, i will not resort to childish name calling if u wanna take me up on it.

[Trinket]

Hi Arzel,

Very interesting; thanks for sharing your story. After your in-depth description of your “wanna-be scam artist” acquaintenance (never call someone like that a friend, eh?) you said something that jumped out at me:

“The really scary aspect is that he is a good person in general, he just has a warped (in my eyes) sense of morality, and he could easily create a site like YMMSS if he wanted, only I think he would do a better job.”

A good person in general? This guy’s a “bottom feeder”, a snake and a vulture. Sorry Arzel, couldn’t resist. You can tell him this for ME and all the other trusting folks who were/are naïve enough to believe that there are good people who really want to help them. We know now that is mostly NOT the case. (Isn't that SAD????)

A “good” person is good through and through. Would NEVER take advantage of other people and try to steal from them. That’s what it is….. STEALING. This “troll” you are speaking of is nothing more than a common thief.

Anyway, Arzel, thank you for taking the time to address my question. I appreciate your honesty and your looking out for others. I truly hope (and believe) you are wrong about YMMSS. We will see soon enough.

Hi Salsa,

I do believe I have been open-minded as I did ask many questions and went through scenarios on our forums to get answers. Mostly, all my questions and concerns were addressed. I’m still nervous about the changes but they certainly sound better than what we have now.

No one did more due diligence with YMMSS than I did. After being bilked out of thousands of dollars in other Internet “scams”. I asked questions, talked to other members, read everything I could find on YMMSS and decided to test it out with $10. After more DD, I bought 9 320’s with last year’s tax refund. More DD and more conversations with members making money. Put a chunk of my retirement fund into 320’s. (My retirement fund wasn’t looking much better than a passbook savings account)! :head:

I didn’t put big money in YMMSS because I’m greedy. On the contrary, my personal situation is such that I must find a way to make a steady income to compensate for my ever shrinking paycheck. The state I live in has the worst economy in the nation. Our once-flourishing business in the “trades” (for 14 years) took a hit after “9/11”. We didn’t recover from that and then our economy bit the dust. We are struggling to keep the bills paid. Being over “50”, it is impossible to start over.

Anyway, I could have gotten all of my money back from YMMSS late last year. We decided to let it go one more cycle and then start taking some commissions. Well, you know the story from there. :weep:

I just have to wait and see what happens now and find a way to feel good about my decision.

So, that’s where I’m at. Call me naive but the new comp plan looks a lot more doable than the old one.

Thank you for your insight and support. I do appreciate your comments.

Respectfully,
Trinket

[brenda]

Kim also needs to have a consistent refund policy. If you read the posts on this site, you will note that both Swishnev and myself have been kicked out of YMMSS. Swishnev was given a refund and I was not.

The only difference between the two us is our postings on this site. We both asked similar questions on the gold, silver, and general forums, in addition to YM forums. The mods at YMMSS came here, read my postings, and made the determination to not issue a refund.

Base your refund policy on posts to your own site and not those elsewhere. I understand YMMSS has a reputation to uphold, but hunting down members here and kicking them out based on what they say does nothing but create bad blood.

On a different note, even pro YMMSS members on this site acknowledge negative comments by YMMSS members. Where are they? You delete them all the time. If I was looking to join YMMSS based solely on posts to YM Forums, I would have no idea of the concerns below the surface. Everyone is happy and things are working exactly the way they should. This is not the case, or the commission structure would not have changed. Why not debate these openly? Allowing members to voice concerns would be a great opportunity for you to show the merits of YMMSS. Just make sure you use facts and figures, and not generalizations and promises.

the reason swishnev was kicked out of the forums was because he made derogatory ethnic slurs. a lot of us were complaining about his derogatory ethnic comments that made many of us feel BAD.

[Arzel]

the reason swishnev was kicked out of the forums was because he made derogatory ethnic slurs. a lot of us were complaining about his derogatory ethnic comments that made many of us feel BAD.

SO you are saying that if you make derogatory ethinic slurs on the YM forums you will get kicked out and recieve a refund, whereas if you question the actual business you will get kicked out with no refund?

Sounds like an odd criteria for refund. In any case I doubt that swishnev made derogatory comments which would have caused him to be kicked out. We would have heard of that before now, as there are more than a few current and forum YM members on our forum.

[Arzel]

Hi Arzel,

Very interesting; thanks for sharing your story. After your in-depth description of your “wanna-be scam artist” acquaintenance (never call someone like that a friend, eh?) you said something that jumped out at me:

“The really scary aspect is that he is a good person in general, he just has a warped (in my eyes) sense of morality, and he could easily create a site like YMMSS if he wanted, only I think he would do a better job.”

A good person in general? This guy’s a “bottom feeder”, a snake and a vulture. Sorry Arzel, couldn’t resist. You can tell him this for ME and all the other trusting folks who were/are naïve enough to believe that there are good people who really want to help them. We know now that is mostly NOT the case. (Isn't that SAD????)

A “good” person is good through and through. Would NEVER take advantage of other people and try to steal from them. That’s what it is….. STEALING. This “troll” you are speaking of is nothing more than a common thief.

Anyway, Arzel, thank you for taking the time to address my question. I appreciate your honesty and your looking out for others. I truly hope (and believe) you are wrong about YMMSS. We will see soon enough.

Respectfully,
Trinket

I am still holding our hope that I can show my friend that his logic is faulty. :)

I'll present you with another situation so as to better understand his thought process. This is another of the many debates that we have on a regular basis.

Medical costs in the US are spiraling out of control. Advances in medical technology and medicines have allowed us to keep terminally ill people alive weeks or even months longer than they normally would. These end of life cases normally result in extended stays in hospice facilities or hospitals in general with little or no apparent benefit to quality of life. In fact the last six months of life are generally more expensive, medically speaking, than that person's entire medical care up to that point.

Some of these people contribute to their own problems because of the lifestyle they live (no exercise, poor choice of diet, smoking, over-drinking, ect.) resulting in cancers, hear failure, liver and kidney failure to name a few. The cost to the general population in treating these people is disproportioanally greater than to those that live healthier lives.

Should these people be responsible for their conditions and be treated differently than those that live healthy lives?

Could the general problems regarding medical care in the US be improved if we were to shift those resources to other causes?

Or the basic idology of this problem. Would the world be better off if these people (that in previous generations die early) were simply sacrificed for the greater good of mankind?

I should also state that my friend has a degree in socialogy with a focus on geratric (elderly) care.

I don't expect an answer, just to think about it. Both pro and con could make very convincing arguements that they believe their logic is the correct, and in the best interest of most people.

I do not think I am wrong about YMMSS, but if I am, I will be the first to admit it, and do wish you the best.

[Mat_Watcher]

SO you are saying that if you make derogatory ethinic slurs on the YM forums you will get kicked out and recieve a refund, whereas if you question the actual business you will get kicked out with no refund?

Sounds like an odd criteria for refund. In any case I doubt that swishnev made derogatory comments which would have caused him to be kicked out. We would have heard of that before now, as there are more than a few current and forum YM members on our forum.

Swishnev had a problem from the beginning.
He never followed the YMForums rules namecalling who was trying to help him and others.
His comments were showing no respect for those to his concerns were directed and for those were saying that to him.
He was contacted by PM from Mods and went through a quite period for a while.
Then he again started to posting against the YMForums tou,not for the concepts but for how were and where exposed.
He was kicked out when started to post on ADS Forums again not following the rules.
Doesn't matter what he wrote,simply he wasn't following the rules.

Who followed him's story and tried to do the same to get a refund,cannot be considered in the same way.
Swishnev didn't asked for a refund or for to be kicked out,he posted his concerns with a wrong method and this happened.
Making the same thing to obtain the same results it is not acceptable.

Many Thanks

[Salsa]

The YMForum rules--and especially the way they are interpreted by some mods--amount to what a rapist might say to his victims: "If you cooperate and act like you enjoy it while I stick it to you, I might let you live. Otherwise you'll die."

Salsa
____________

[surfer]

The way these things work is to show you some success early on (in order to build your confidence), thus encouraging you reinvest what you've already earned, plus more. YMMSS concepts like the smaller positions of $10, $20, $40... and suggesting goals like the "magic number" of 79 positions make it all that much harder to get into the black--and easier to get deeper and deeper into the red.

Here is a perfect example of what Salsa means
taken from the YMForums.

I have never tried to make money on the web ,or in any venture other than my employment, and work I do on the side in my shop at home. Never trusted what little moneys I have,[very little] to be spent on something I was"nt certain about. I found out about YM from a freind of mine[my sponsor] and just had a good feeling about this company. I guess it was the fact that Kim stated "that what he got excited about was"nt so much how he had helped someone but the person he had helped, helping someone else." I joined 08/04, dug up what I could and purchased 2-32epc"s. After doing so I said if this last long enough to make my cycle I will take my comm. and then what ever happens I will have lost no money. Guess what? when I made my cycle in Nov, and after a lot of thought I purchased 2 more 32epc"s. When this new site came up I purchased a big bunch of 32 epc"s on CCrds. but staying afloat with careful budgeting, no room for error. I still have the confidense in Kim and his vision. I am so thankful to him for allowing me to even have a dream, to afford the most of simple things. My day will come, good lord willing. As my farther said to me once, I got more time than I have money. So with this I thank Kim with utmost respect. Sencerley, Mark.

Many people who did exactly what this person did
are now feeling the crunch of believing what Kim
Inman said before the new site launch about having
a reserve fund set aside to keep cycle times at or
below 90 days. But Kim was lying all along because
he knew there was no way he could pump enough
money back in to keep it at 90 days or less.

Now these same people who believed in Kim Inman
are basically being called stupid by some YMForum
members for overextending themselves based on the
good word of this supposedly caring man.

What they all seem to conveniently overlook is that
if it weren't for the hundreds, if not thousands of
"foolish" members like the one above, cycle times
would probably be well above the 300 day mark.

Kim's new plan evolved from a suggestion from one
of the members. What better way to attempt to
instill more confidence in the membership than by
taking one of their suggestions and creating a plan
that gives the illusion of no more cycle times.

Even more so than the old system, the new system
encourages people to buy a large number of small
positions and wait 15 months for their payouts to
begin.

But just like the old system, the new system will
suffer the same fate of needing a constant increase
in cash flow every single week just to maintain "share"
value.

Every week thousands of new EPCs will reach maturity.

So far Kim Inman has given back very little, if anything,
as far as outside revenue streams go. For 3 years, its
just been a well run ponzi scheme.

Kim's biggest contributions have been hype and broken
promises:

Never over 90 days with reserve funds to guarantee it.

The mysterious "German project" that would secure
YMMSS' future for generations.

YMMSS Kiosks in airport terminals.

Billions in advertising revenue from a business model
that has never worked on a large scale.

Billions in outside revenue streams that apparently only
he is aware of. Otherwise, don't you think we'd have a
few trillionaires in the world?

It's impossible to pick winners 100% of the time in the
investment world and that's exactly what YMMSS will
have to do for "shares' to hold their value as thousands
of "reading credits" reach maturity and pour into the
RFA each week.

[macs]

I like many others have been in YMMSS and have a considerable amount of money invested. Over $12,000. I do not like what has happened but I doubt I will ever get that money back and yes this is not what I agreed to when I joined and I believe that I deserve a full refund on my money at this whole program has now changed. Any suggestions other than filing a law suit???

[brenda]

SO you are saying that if you make derogatory ethinic slurs on the YM forums you will get kicked out and recieve a refund, whereas if you question the actual business you will get kicked out with no refund?

Sounds like an odd criteria for refund. In any case I doubt that swishnev made derogatory comments which would have caused him to be kicked out. We would have heard of that before now, as there are more than a few current and forum YM members on our forum.

You didnt read the above comment correctly. I said he got kicked out of the FORUMS for making derogatory comments, NOT YMMSS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS. please read it again. thank you.

[Arzel]

You didnt read the above comment correctly. I said he got kicked out of the FORUMS for making derogatory comments, NOT YMMSS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS. please read it again. thank you.

I didn't think you could get kicked out of the forums and not be kicked out of YMMSS at the same time, so I don't see what difference it would make. In any case the discussion was regarding being kicked out of YMMSS in general, and not limited to just the fourums.

What swishnev may or may not have said is not relevent to this discussion, and seems to be more of a way to try and discredit swishnev. So lets not go further down this road.

[Salsa]

I like many others have been in YMMSS and have a considerable amount of money invested. Over $12,000. I do not like what has happened but I doubt I will ever get that money back and yes this is not what I agreed to when I joined and I believe that I deserve a full refund on my money at this whole program has now changed. Any suggestions other than filing a law suit???Welcome to Matrix Watch, macs. Sorry for your bad news. I suggest starting with complaints to the SEC, FBI, FTC and your state AG. There are links to these at YMMSS - Complaints (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2783). There are some members here who think that such complaints won't do much good, and with that attitude they surely won't! Given the size of YMMSS, the more complaints there are, especially to the SEC, I think, the better the chances that they will look into it. They may be already. For the benefit of other YMMSS members, please let us know the nature of any complaints that you make in the YMMSS - Complaints (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2783) thread.

Aside from being a place where YMMSS members can speak freely about their YMMSS grievances, another thing we're doing here at Matrix Watch is to compile possible evidence for the day when members do wish to take class action against YMMSS. Any contributions that you wish to make are very welcome.

You didnt read the above comment correctly. I said he got kicked out of the FORUMS for making derogatory comments, NOT YMMSS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS, the FORUMS. please read it again. thank you.Does this mean that you don't know he was kicked out of YMMSS--not just the forums--at the same time? I think that you need to read up around here a little bit in order to become better informed.

Salsa
________________

[Arzel]

Welcome to Matrix Watch Macs.

I would like to echo Salsa's remarks. I do think that complaints will make a difference, and each new complaint will make it more likely that action will be taken. Some complaints have already been made, so many of these agencies are probably aware of YMMSS at this time. Addditional complaints will only make it more likely for them to take action.

[macs]

Thanks for the information in the complaints section. I downloaded the comsumer protection complaint form and tomorrow I am going to fill it out and send it to the attorney general of my state.

I also have a cd that I bought to advertise YMMSS and am going to send it along as it explains how YMMSS worked before Kim changed the program and then I am going to copy the new program and send it along also. A copy of my epcs from My Ymmss site. along with copies of things I can print from the forums

[ERThomp]

Has anyone noticed how all these changes are taking place since Mike Hamilton came onboard as the 'Director of Retail Sales'?

Why would he leave a job with a top 20 company, like he said?

Think he is behind these changes? :confused:

:crazy: I'm giving my comments for the 1st time here.Please tell me do you think we'd have sighned up if we'd known it would take what seems like forever/I have posted ads on the YMMSS site.I don't know why.It hasn;t gotten me any credits,and I'm believing it will take from no w on to recurring cycles.No more am I gonna fall for this garbage.Thanks. :head:

[surfer]

Welcome to MatrixWatch ERThomp.

What do you mean by you haven't received
any credits from posting your ads?

Do you just mean that your ads aren't getting
any response? That is the result for the majority
of YMMSS affiliates. Very few testimonials on
the effectiveness of the EPC ads. :rolleyes:

I have posted ads on the YMMSS site.I don't know why.It hasn;t gotten me any credits,and I'm believing it will take from no w on to recurring cycles.No more am I gonna fall for this garbage.Thanks. :head:

Another one of life's learning experiences. Sorry
for your disappointment.

If more people come forward calling Kim Inman out
on his lies there may eventually be some recourse.