Straight from the horse's mouth [Archive]

swishnev

July 19th, 2005, 05:35 PM

the "affiliates" have already put their money into YMMSS and with the new system about to take place, will not be able to take all their money out of YMMSS. i thought this site was for people researching ymmss and trying to figure out whether or not they wanted to be involved, this is why i used "consumer" and not "affiliate". lettie, i have yet to post a negative comment on this thread, only posting the link and the reasons for the link. once again, i am not here to tell people how to think, that is up to them to find out.

also lettie, ymmss is not succeeding at this point at anything other than having their initial plan fail and having to come up with another one. that is fact and i'm not sure where i have failed, and why so personal?

this site spends so much time discussing other companies because that is the point of this site....matrix watch is not a company trying to make money or build a client-base, it is a message board community to talk about what is happening.

concerned

July 19th, 2005, 05:43 PM

I must say, in my 10+ years on the internet I have never seen a site that spends so much time discussing other companies.

Companies? Where are the companies? I don't see us discuss any companies on this site? Are you sure you are on the right site? I don't remember ever having a conversation about an actual company.

Oh, by the way, you must not know the internet that well for having 10+ years, or at least you don't know about real business.

The following sites are DEDICATED to talking about "other companies" and they are REAL COMPANIES.

http://www.reuters.com
http://online.wsj.com/public/us
http://finance.yahoo.com/

These are just to name a few. I am sure these sites talk about other companies a lot more than us.

Food for thought

MatrixWatch

July 19th, 2005, 06:07 PM

Consumers....? Surely if you mean YMMSS affiliates, they can find this information at their own forum. I don't quite see the necessity to keep posting information from another company at this forum. I must say, in my 10+ years on the internet I have never seen a site that spends so much time discussing other companies. I do notice you always post negative comments, there will never be anything said when over $600 000 is paid to the affiliates of YMMSS. Is this because you don't want to admit that there is a company out there that is succeeding, where perhaps you have failed.
Food for thought.
Lettie

Why does "humanrightswatch.org" and "judicialwatch.org" spend all of their time talking about injustices committed by law makers and nations? Why does Greenpeace spend all of their time talking about how organizations treat the environment?

Why does the "Make Poverty History" campaign keep talking about the G8 and African aid?

You see, scammers like to shame people who speak out against them and hold them accountable, because they don't like their actions to be watched. It totally meddles with their exit strategy. If YMMSS was a reputable organization, it wouldn't worry about a small consumer-advocacy group like us holding them accountable. You can't shame us into changing our value system. We've achieved HUGE results worldwide as a result of our efforts, and we have helped thousands of people seek refuge and perspective in the wake of being affected by internet scams.

And whether or not YMMSS pays out $600,000 or $6,000,000 is moot. What we are pointing out is that their structure likely creates more damage as it grows larger. What if I told you that for every $100 paid out to one person, there are five people who are disadvantaged in the process? Let YMMSS talk about that one person, and we'll continue to talk about the other five.

surfer

July 19th, 2005, 06:14 PM

I do notice you always post negative comments, there will never be anything said when over $600 000 is paid to the affiliates of YMMSS. Is this because you don't want to admit that there is a company out there that is succeeding, where perhaps you have failed.
Food for thought.
Lettie

:applause: :applause: :applause:
Over $600K paid.

Only about $1.5 million short of what it
needed to be for stable cycle times. And this
will be the best day of the month. Every other
day is worse.

Oh, Kim Inman is succeeding very well. The
18,000+ affiliates that have never made a dime
in YMMSS have made him a multimillionaire.

I'm sorry that I don't have much positive to say
about a man that's ruining lives and selling lies.

If the big income streams come in that he's using
to keep people hopeful come through, I'll give him
proper credit.

Hell, even if Mike Hamilton can make a dent, I'll be
very happy for the members.

Unfortunately lettie, YMMSS is merely a failing ponzi
right now.

surfer

July 19th, 2005, 06:20 PM

What if I told you that for every $100 paid out to one person, there are five people who are disadvantaged in the process? Let YMMSS talk about that one person, and we'll continue to talk about the other five.

Great point and so true. :head:

Darius

July 19th, 2005, 07:14 PM

a small consumer-advocacy group like us

That is hilarious,

Real groups of that discription do not lose there dignity by calling people they dont know scammers and liars.

I've met Kim and spent time with him and he is out and out gentleman. No guile in him at all.

What if I told you that for every $100 paid out to one person, there are five people who are disadvantaged in the process? Let YMMSS talk about that one person, and we'll continue to talk about the other five.

If I buy 1 gallon of deisel every day for my car, and the guy who owns the gas station pays his clerk some wages every week, am I being scammed? Am I a victim?

Those who purchase EPC's are Independant Business Owners, they purchase a product. Whether you think the product is worthless or not, is immaterial. That is what they buy and they in turn will be paid for their part in the business.

D

MatrixWatch

July 19th, 2005, 07:49 PM

That is hilarious,

Real groups of that discription do not lose there dignity by calling people they dont know scammers and liars.

I've met Kim and spent time with him and he is out and out gentleman. No guile in him at all.

Actually, those groups really don't know any of the people they criticize, and that actually adds to their credibility. They look at the actions, and the results of those actions, not how much the person smiled in the process, or how "gentlemanly" they were.

Now, we've been observing schemes like these for over a couple years now, and we have boiled our stance down to an observation of the mathematics. If a program is mathematically sustainable, and the digits line up with the claims, then we probably wont say much. However, in YMMSS' case, it appears that their structure will yield the same result as any old pyramid or ponzi schems. In fact, recent data suggests that this prediction is becoming a reality, and there is nothing that can be done to reverse the damage.

If I buy 1 gallon of deisel every day for my car, and the guy who owns the gas station pays his clerk some wages every week, am I being scammed? Am I a victim?

Those who purchase EPC's are Independant Business Owners, they purchase a product. Whether you think the product is worthless or not, is immaterial. That is what they buy and they in turn will be paid for their part in the business.

Your analogy is not sufficient to explain away what we are talking about here, because in this case it is the clerk who is really paying for 80% of the gas, and not all of the clerks are even being paid by the owner.

YMMSS is just a marketing-campaign based business model, with no real products or services to legitimate any long-term sustainability. Present data is revealing only the tip of a huge iceberg that will become evident for all to see, whether or not we are pointing it out here at MatrixWatch.

If a building is built poorly, then a good engineer can say firmly that it will fall, how it will fall, and possibly even when it will fall. Everyone can criticize the engineer all they want, but once that building falls everyone will be eating crow. Now, imagine an engineer who has endured this whole prediction/criticism/crow-eating process hundreds of times....

That is where we are. We've pointing out and predicting the fall of these schemes for a long time, and we've seen hundreds of people just like yourself defending the owners of these schemes on the merits of their chracter.

A Couple Examples
Shelby Ware and Damion Flynn, the others of EzExpo were hailed as wonderful people who would never let their "customers" down. People would attack us, post our addresses online, threaten to "get" us, etc. But in the end, Shelby Ware is now a fugitive, and all of his customers bascially want to hang him.

Greg Day, of GotMatrix.com, was said to be the most gracious and committed matrix owner in the matrix industry. Those who were most supportive of him in the fact of MatrixWatch.org have recently joined our campaign to get Greg put into jail.

In cases like these, we were told how wrong we were, how we didn't know these people personally and had no right to criticize them, and how our mathematical predictions didn't mean a thing. In all of these cases we told them exactly what we are telling you-----

Nobody believes that they are a scammer, but in the end, it is the "math and the aftermath" that determines who is and who isn't. Many people might benefit from YMMSS, but that is moot. The issue is the growing amount of people who won't, and what they will do once the bottom drops out and the pyrmaid collapses. It is interesting that YMMSS has moved its headquarters offshore. That is a huge warning sign, since those who are negatively affected by YMMSS will likely not have much legal recourse.

I wonder what sorts of things they'll have to say about YMMSS then?

Just remember-- we are only pointing at reality. Whether or not we are here to make these claims means nothing at all, because even in the absence of that engineer...the building still falls.

Darius

July 19th, 2005, 09:17 PM

Now, we've been observing schemes like these for over a couple years now, and we have boiled our stance down to an observation of the mathematics. If a program is mathematically sustainable, and the digits line up with the claims, then we probably wont say much.

I've read your whole post and I understand why you do what you do. And let me tell you, I would be the very first to point the finger if I spotted a scam.

I have NO problem at all, with people throwing figures around and even proving in their calculations that things dont add up - if they have all the facts that is.

What I have a problem with, is the owner and the company being called conman and scammers etc.

It's one thing being wrong, it's another being dishonest.

If this forum just presented figures it would be fine. But, this forum seeks to get a rise out of people, it libels and attempts to damage people. Iv'e read plot's to bring the demise of company's in here. What is that all about?

Is this why you are here?

I'll be honest, if I owned a company who was being mis-represented in here, I would take you to court just for the libel.

D

MatrixWatch

July 20th, 2005, 12:01 AM

I can say that I've never plotted to take down YMMSS. To be honest, the members here know MUCH more about YMMSS than I do, and it would be best to turn the Q&A over to them on these matters.

It is a factualy claim though to say that many people feel that they have been burned or scammed by YMMSS. If anything, our forums allow these people to vent let their thoughts out in an open manner. When you think about it, this actually helps YMMSS because people have an outlet to vent are less likely to let out their frustration by hiring lawyers and investigators. My data over the past two years shows a correlation between there being a higher amount of lawsuits when the outlets for discussion were less available, and less lawsuits when forums like ours are active with conversation on a particular "sheme du'jour".

Also, I try to stay more focused on YMMSS as a whole, rather than on attacking Kim. I think that it is more respectable to go about it that way, and it keeps everyone focused on the issue. You are right that people here tend to go after Kim 'the person', rather than Kim 'as YMMSS'. I agree with what you have said about this, and I also think that we should stay focused on the facts and figures.

However, we aren't publishing a trade journal here. This is an active discussion forum, where people have opinions and ideas. The members here have the right to speak their mind, and we'll defend that in so far as it does not violate the forum rules or codes of law.

And as for your friend, "Kim", tell him that if he doesn't want to get attacked personally then he should consider doing something a little more private. Launching an international pyramid scheme is hardly the way to keep oneself on the down and low.

And cut it with the lawsuit talk. Let's just agree to disagree and let it stop there. Suggesting that we are libelous is on old way of dealing with what we do here, and it isn't the way to get at the heart of the issue. People can't just file a lawsuit for libel. A ton of facts and causes need to be proven first, and it would cost the person who filed it more than it would be worth. I mean, what are we? A consumer-advocacy forum with an annual budget of less than $600. You wouldn't get much out of us, and suing us on behalf of YMMSS would only prove that what we have said is somehow threatening to them. In other words, it would only make our voice heard more widely.

Dreamer

July 20th, 2005, 05:01 AM

I've been on the internet before there were browsers and the main way to access was ftp. Before that, I used, and even at one point, ran my own BBS. Does that mean that I know more than others here? Of course not.

So, congratz on your 10+ years on the net. I'm putting the frosting on your cake now as we speak.

Gringo

July 20th, 2005, 11:59 AM

Darius:
There are multiple posts here explaining exactly why YMMSS is a scam and therefore Kim a scammer. There have been multiple post directed at you specifically in this regard, yet like Alan the mod, you avoid addressing the specific reasons given and instead complain that we are dishonst, libelious, don't have the facts, are speculative, etc.

Clearly you are going to believe what you want to believe despite the facts, and no amount of rational proof will change that. This is now abundantly clear to all here that have responded to your posts--you have no rational response to the reasons presented proving YMMSS is a scam. So have fun with your dream of retiring rich off of YMMSS and keep sending Kim your money. He really does appreciate it helping his rich retirement.

MatrixWatch

July 20th, 2005, 06:05 PM

Darius:
He really does appreciate it helping his rich retirement.

That's probably why he is so happy, and such a "great guy"! I'd be in a good mood too if I lived outside U.S. legal jurisdiction and kept getting big checks in the mail. :rolleyes:

Dreamer

July 20th, 2005, 06:58 PM

Was I the only one getting dizzy watching his head shake back and forth all the time?

http://www.kevinhogan.com/nodding.htm

The study found that nodding your head up and down is, in effect, telling yourself that you have confidence in your own thoughts, whether those thoughts are positive or negative. Shaking your head does the opposite: its gives people less confidence in their own thoughts.

So, even kimmy questions your thoughts.

drzod

July 21st, 2005, 01:25 AM

Darius, I spoke to Kim before getting kicked out. He called me, which was unexpected. He was cordial, engaging, and did not resort to name calling even when I told him I felt YMMSS was a ponzi. I felt he handled himself well while listening to my issues and concerns, and I respect him for the following:

He called me and did not let a middleman do it.

He let me explain my point of view without getting defensive.

He solicited feedback and seemed to value what I said.

However, he never offered any information that could change my mind or my position. Everything he told me, had been promised in one form or another since the new servers went into production and the 3% greed factor was implemented.

Then I posted a cycle time question to the YM forums, and was kicked out by comments made here.

Now anyone can pull up drzod on this forum and view all of my posts from the first day I posted to Matrix Watch, but my simple questions were deleted or removed from all forums.

Why is this the case? If YMMSS was legit, why didn't someone provide me some facts? Instead I received "hang in there," or "things will get better soon," or "keep buying EPC's." Not one of these "solutions" addressed any of my concerns.

Everyone here is asking the same simple question of YMMSS: prove with facts/figures that YMMSS will work.

Just pretend you are selling stock (like the new plan looks like), YMMSS affiliates are shareholders, and Matrix Watch is Wall Street. Wall Street responds to facts and actual data not generalizations and promises. What would you say here so that you receive a favorable review or a buy rating?

U-R-informed

July 21st, 2005, 02:11 AM

If you want to get info straight from the "Horses Mouth" I suggest you write him a letter or pay him a visit. Here is his home address:

Personal information is not allowed on the forum. We have saved this information, and anyone wanting it just needs to contact a forum moderator. Thank You

Concerned

****Also, to let everyone know....I grew up in the same town as Kim and if you want to get a good idea of what kind of a person he is then check out the court records for Knox County in Vincennes Indiana, and also ask people in Sandburg, IN about his "Insurance Deals." I think there are a lot of local officials who would be happy to tell the tales of elderly people losing hundreds and thousands of dollars on "good life insurance deals." Also, he is an avid MLM guy who used to try and recruit many of my friends and his co-workers at Crane Naval Base, until they finally got annoyed to the point they complained to the supervising managers that Kim continously solicited money from them on the job.

****Look, the bottom line is many of my friends have joined YMMSS because Kim promised them money and they are hurting now because of this, an Kim is not returning their calls. He is putting a lot of money into his house and spending money like crazy while the majority of people in YMMSS struggle. He has himself refferred to YMMSS as a really complex MLM that can never be touched by any district attorney.

**** I am not a member of YMMSS, nor would I ever give that man money, and I feel sorry for people who stand to lose a lot. I was told about this website recently by a friend who is a member of YMMSS and I thought it is only right to tell people the truth from folks who know Kim. Bottom line is, whether you wish to believe me or not, Kim Inman is and has been for over 10 years involved in MLM scams and insurance fraud and will eventually split with your money, trust me on this.

**** Ask the people who have been sent to Belize to work on the "Resort" for him and they will gladly tell you that he is blowing YMMSS's money on what he calls (honest to god) his tropical hideout.

This is all I will say on this , and I feel good about hopefully helping at least a couple of people avoid being bilked out of money they need and have worked hard to get. It is disgusting and I hope that when he splits that he always feels like someone is after him, because people like him who fraud and profit off of poor and desperate people deserve to suffer themselves.

Good night and I hope this helps some of you when deciding to try his scam!

Kolotwicz

July 21st, 2005, 07:16 AM

Okay, so you dont like Kim. I would rather you were able to back up those claims because everyone, apart from you, who claims to know Kim have said he is the salt of the earth, including ex-colleagues, neighbours and those who work in the resort in Belize.

You obviously have some issues and I suggest you try this http://www.services.unimelb.edu.au/counsel/issues/anger.html

Have a great day.

Train

July 21st, 2005, 07:40 AM

thank you for the information U-R-informed. i think it will help potential YMMSS recruits from losing their money (those who do their due diligence at least).

hey, i found kim in the white pages. you guys can give him a ring-a-ling if you'd prefer to speak directly to the horse's mouth.

Personal information is not allowed on the forum. We have saved this information, and anyone wanting it just needs to contact a forum moderator. Thank You

Concerned

swishnev

July 21st, 2005, 10:13 AM

maybe u-r-informed's post can be the headline of a new thread that is easier for new members of matrix watch to see?

Gringo

July 21st, 2005, 11:11 AM

Okay, so you dont like Kim. I would rather you were able to back up those claims because everyone, apart from you, who claims to know Kim have said he is the salt of the earth, including ex-colleagues, neighbours and those who work in the resort in Belize.

"Everyone thinks hes the salt of the earth"? Why don't you back up your claim?

Sounds like the poster has first hand knowledge of Kim and his associations. Can you make the same claim?

surfer

July 21st, 2005, 12:26 PM

everyone, apart from you, who claims to know Kim have said he is the salt of the earth, including ex-colleagues, neighbours and those who work in the resort in Belize.

Of course, Alan VI's version of "everyone" is limited to
those involved in YMMSS and poor islanders working
in Kim's money losing resort who were allegedly given
a pay raise with YMMSS members' money. ;)

Whether or not U-R-Informed's info is entirely accurate
or not, Kim has established a track record of getting
people to invest and lose more than they can afford
when going into business with him. Just like the affiliates
that dumped too much money into YMMSS, he had
downline in his MLM dump thousands into frontloading
nutritional products supposedly against his advice. lol

Sorry Alan VI, there are always two sides to every story.

U-R-informed

July 21st, 2005, 02:27 PM

Denial my friend will lead you down the wrong path in life.

I am not going to try and defend my post, all I will say is that I am not angry and I do not like Kim Inman for what he has done to many good hearted, down on their luck people.

You can buy into his scams at your own risk, My post was only an FYI for anyone who might have wuestions about who Kim really is.

I have met him and have known him for a long time, I question whether or not you ever have.

Salsa

July 21st, 2005, 02:45 PM

Thanks so much for your posts, U-R-informed. Your points were well taken, and your sincerity was clear.

Don't waste much thought or effort on Kolotwicz. You can read Example of a brainwashed YMMSS member (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2914) for all you need to know about him.

I wish you well,
Salsa
___________________

ycchen

July 21st, 2005, 03:11 PM

I wonder why all these people who were scammed by Kim before did not legal action against Kim's previous scam?

May be they did not lose enough to take action?

Salsa

July 21st, 2005, 03:25 PM

I wonder why all these people who were scammed by Kim before did not legal action against Kim's previous scam? According to U-R-informed, there was legal action taken:
...if you want to get a good idea of what kind of a person he is then check out the court records for Knox County in Vincennes Indiana

U-R-informed

July 21st, 2005, 04:49 PM

I wonder why all these people who were scammed by Kim before did not legal action against Kim's previous scam?

May be they did not lose enough to take action?

If you read my earlier post you would know the answer to this.....

They have taken legal action against Mr. Inman.

Check the Knox County court records and see for yourself!!

As far as I know, he has not split with all of the money yet, but when he does, I am sure there will be legal ramifications.

****I post this so that Kim's minion's are not wrongfully influencing poor people to give this man their money.

**** I do not dislike Kim for any other reason than I have seen what his scams have done to people in my small community, period.

**** I do not criticize anyone for joining his programs, I only wanted to let you know that after speaking with my friends who told me what he was doing, I felt it was right to post here and let people know who he really is.

**** If you want to know travel to Vincennes, IN and Sandborn, IN and ask people for yourselves, I think you will find that they are not as willing to defend this man's morals as people who do not know him.

He is a professional MLM guy and has been for over a decade, I am being 100% honest and clear on this.

danielmeyers

July 21st, 2005, 07:20 PM

**** If you want to know travel to Vincennes, IN and Sandborn, IN and ask people for yourselves, I think you will find that they are not as willing to defend this man's morals as people who do not know him.

Now THAT would be an interesting project - a "Dateline NBC" style of documentary on Kim Inman and his previous businesses. You know, where they interview local people on camera. I'd certainly kick in some of my own money toward the production costs. Yes, really.

Daniel

U-R-informed

July 21st, 2005, 09:48 PM

Now THAT would be an interesting project - a "Dateline NBC" style of documentary on Kim Inman and his previous businesses. You know, where they interview local people on camera. I'd certainly kick in some of my own money toward the production costs. Yes, really.

Daniel

Daniel,

If the 10's of thousands of people get screwed like almost everyone else who has dealt with Inman have, you very well might see him on Dateline. I spoke with my friend today about my posting on this website and he told me that Kim has planned from the beginning what he woul do when this fell apart. He said that Kim knows that the failure of his so-called "business" can be directly blamed on the people not buying more, and people will think he is Christian and that it was out of his control. Look, I am no saint here, but this guy is a very greedy, evil man if he can sleep at night knowing that he has spent a decade of his life scamming and scheming to get money people actually had to work for. Our town is working class and he has now targeted more poor people by saying that his goal is to help people. BS! he has never helped anyone as long as I have known him. I feel sick knowing that families are going without, and kids are not getting the proper life they deserve because there desperate parents have payed this man. I wish you guys could see the work he is doing to his house and the amount of other people's money is sickening. Please, to anyone who is thinking about giving him money and you are struggling as it is, think about what I have wrote. This is a warning and I hope you take it serious, he is a lifetime fraudster and he has not ever been a legitimate business man. Christians, do not take advantage of poor and desperate people, that is all I will say.

surfer

July 21st, 2005, 10:25 PM

U-R-informed

July 21st, 2005, 11:01 PM

U-R-informed, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I'm curious as to why you can't be more specific
about exactly what you refer to in the Knox
County court records. Indiana is quite a drive
for me. :)

Or maybe someone else could explain to me any
possible legal issues for exposing things that
would be available to the general public.

Sure would be nice if all court records were available
online. Maybe someday.

Surfer,

You should be able to write a letter and request the info from the court. I do not have exact specifics regarding the complaints and criminal cases, but basically the local prosecutor's office investigated complaints of Kim and several others recruiting many people to buy into a marketing business locally which never exsisted. Also, there were some insurance fraud issues and it was all tied in together. Kim has not worked in a long time, he has survived by getting people to "invest" in "businesses" and when the well dried up locally it was time for him to go on the web, where I am told he is mastering the art fraud. If you want to get him mad, ask him about the Insurance he used to sell, and also ask him about the many MLM "businesses" that he used to come up with that went bust (costing many poor people to lose even more of their money).

***** The discussions I had recently with a couple of old buddies of mine (that promted me to get on this site) startled me. I cannot believe the massive size of this fraud that he has started, it is scary to think how many people are going to get hurt by it. Writing to you guys and getting this out there has had a therapeutic effect on me. I feel like this might actually help someone that is thinking about getting involved with this character.

*****If anyone out there does not believe me, I encourage you to get on a phone directory site and look up random phone numbers in Vincennes, IN and ask the people that answer if they know Kim Inman, if they do ask them if he is a legitimate business man. You might get one of his previous victims on the phone. My posts have just scratched the surface, I am trying to encourage one of my friends who knows Kim well to get on here and lay it all out, but he is afraid he might be recignized and he fears for his safety, which is legitimate.

surfer

July 21st, 2005, 11:20 PM

Thanks.

Well, the phone number and address for the
Knox County Courthouse in Vincennes is easily
availabe at switchboard.com

I guess we'll have to do some digging.

As for cold call canvassing Vincennes, I think
I'll pass on that, lol.

And it most definitely has nothing to do with
not believing you. Most con men need a few
practice runs before they strike the mother
load. And that will always leave some evidence
behind somewhere.

ycchen

July 21st, 2005, 11:55 PM

My posts have just scratched the surface, I am trying to encourage one of my friends who knows Kim well to get on here and lay it all out, but he is afraid he might be recignized and he fears for his safety, which is legitimate.

U-R-informed, thanks again for sticking around and continue to share you insights. Safety is a very legitimate reason especially if you stay so close to an unemployed scammer who might have nothing to lose.

Nevertheless, please continue to encourage local victims or people who knows about Kim Iman and his past history to share their thought, or may be present it in a way that could better protect themselves from any possible retaliation.

I strongly believe that YMMSS current and future members will definitely benefit from all these valuable insights from local residents. :)

Arzel

July 22nd, 2005, 01:27 AM

U-R-informed,

I agree with YCChen. I understand the safety issue. When Watchdog when face to face with EZExpo, the scammers involved were quite agressive. It part of the reason I remain annoymous to most people in these forums.

I do appreciate your information though, and am thankful that you have decided to share your information with us.

U-R-informed

July 22nd, 2005, 01:47 AM

I appreciate you guys saying that, it is for that very reason I decided to put this out there. I am the first to admit that I do not no anything about the world of online matrix systems or any of this stuff. But, my conversations with a couple of buddies who do know about YMMSS is the reason I am telling people about this guy. I read other posts in this forum and I have seen the people who are defending Inman, and it is sad that they have no idea what this guy is. My friend told me about what is happening with Kim's YMMSS and it is pretty much right in line with his past. He makes everything seem exciting and gets people to buy in, and he pays them at first, then more people join and he starts skimming off the top, then when he can no longer pay anyone he starts making excuses until he finally disappears with the money. I guarantee you he has done this at least 15-20 times before if not more. I have heard that he used to be hooked up with this old guy in Mississippi that used to run a bunch of these scams and that is how he got his start. He used this guy to be his "success story" and would get him to tell everyone that Kim "saved his life" by giving him a financial future. He probably has a bunch of people like this now swindling people out of their money. For all of you that are smart enough to understand that this guy is running a scam, you will get to see this play out soon. He is going to be running scared at the end of this one, this is not a small town Indiana scam anymore, he might have bit off more than he can chew.

I will keep my ears open and if I can find out anymore info I will let everyone know. Kim will never find out who I am, but my friends are telling me to be careful what I post on here, so I can only state general info and not tell specific stories that might give away their identities. Believe me I wish there was a way that we could ask these questions to Kim. I think he is probably watching this site, tonight my friend told me he messed up and accidentally said "insurance" instead of EPC's tonight on their conference call. I swear to god that is what I heard, you guys are better at finding that info online than I am so you could probably verify that.

Curious as Ever

July 22nd, 2005, 04:41 AM

I have been watching this for over 8 months now. The one thing I haven't seen is if Kim is doing all that you say then you haven't discussed how his family must know what is going on. Any takers?

surfer

July 22nd, 2005, 11:24 AM

Who is to say what his family does or doesn't
really know?

Just like die hard members, his family may think
he has good intentions now as well as in the past.

Kim is the one who designed the program. He's
sold thousands of people on the viability of it,
so it's not hard to imagine that he could make
his family believe it's legit.

Then there's always the option that the family
members involved know exactly what's going on.
It certainly wouldn't be the first time in history.

surfer

July 22nd, 2005, 11:56 AM

I'm trying to see if thinkaboutit at Scam.com (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=74954#post74954) will
check into the courthouse for us and attempt to
verify U-R-Informed's statements.

As I stated there, whether or not a past history
actually exists, it won't change my views of
YMMSS. But if there is a pattern, members should
be aware of it.

Hopefully, he'll help out.

Kolotwicz

July 22nd, 2005, 02:24 PM

UR-Informed souinds like he is making it up as he goes along. Worst of all, you guy's are buying it.

One example of this mince I guarantee you he has done this at least 15-20 times before if not more.

That is the kind of thing I'd expect from a kid telling lies. KIm is about 50 years old. He has run YM for 3 years! That would make him around 46-47 at the start of YM. So lets' say he has run things like this for 17 times for arguements sake, and each lasted for 2 years. It means he was running scams since he was 13. Not to mention managing to finish high school and got to UNi to get a degree and then take up his career for years.

What a load of lies. UR-Informed is on an attention seeking crusade. Nothing more.

Salsa

July 22nd, 2005, 02:35 PM

Your logic doesn't hold up, as usual, Alan. First it's not atypical for con artists to run several scams simultaneously. Second, it's taken Kim all this time to master a scam on the scale of YMMSS. Surely his "practice" ones could not have endured so long. Finally, what possible motivation could U-R-Informed have to make this stuff up? If you think it's because he is seeking attention, you are clearly projecting.

concerned

July 22nd, 2005, 02:45 PM

UR-Informed souinds like he is making it up as he goes along. Worst of all, you guy's are buying it.

You are trying to say someone else is making it up as they go? What about you? You can't even keep track of your name. What about Kim, making up the rules as he goes? Sounds hypocritical of you, don't you think?

That is the kind of thing I'd expect from a kid telling lies.

You must be a kid then, since we hear lies from you all the time.

KIm is about 50 years old. He has run YM for 3 years! That would make him around 46-47 at the start of YM. So lets' say he has run things like this for 17 times for arguements sake, and each lasted for 2 years. It means he was running scams since he was 13. Not to mention managing to finish high school and got to UNi to get a degree and then take up his career for years.

Where do you get your logic? Are you saying that it is impossible to run more than one scam at the same time? Don't you think it is entirely possible to run 2 or 3 simultaniously? I mean I have had 2 jobs at the same time, and I bet a lot of our members here have too. In fact I had 2 jobs once, and went to college, so if I can do it, why can't Kim?

If Kim can't do it, then he is not a multitasker. If he is not a multitasker, then why are you trusting him with all your money? After all, according to your logic, Kim can't do 2 things at once, so he cannot accept payments for purchases AND pay out cycles at the same time. I guess he can only accept the payments, and not pay out, because he can't do 2 things at once. Maybe that's why he can't get more investments either, or advertise his own business. Must be because he can't focus on more than one thing, and we all know what the one thing he is focusing on; spending that money.

Maybe his excuse for not paying anything out when he runs out of money can be that he can't do 2 thngs at once. Wouldn't that be an original excuse?

What a load of lies. UR-Informed is on an attention seeking crusade. Nothing more.

And you're not? Let me thnk about this. He gave us the name of courthouse where facts are stored. All we have to do is call and ask, and find the truth for ourselves. You on the otherhand have never given us any facts at all. Now, who is seeking attention?

Kolotwicz

July 22nd, 2005, 02:46 PM

Finally, what possible motivation could U-R-Informed have to make this stuff up? If you think it's because he is seeking attention, you are clearly projecting.

People do things like this all the time. What about the guy's who are dragged into court on trumped up charges only to set free because the judge see's through all the smoke.

Thisbguy has blurted out a whole stream of allegations without so much as a shred of evidence.

What if said (and Im not) that one of you stole purses from old ladies and had a way of getting Matrix Watch users bank details for fraudulent purposes. YOu know it would be a crock and you would deny it and ban me. Yet this Un-Informed person get's to blow his beak unchallenged?

Typical - no justice here folks.

Kolotwicz

July 22nd, 2005, 02:53 PM

And you're not? Let me thnk about this. He gave us the name of courthouse where facts are stored.

That is so pathetic.

Okay, I say you are a credit card fraudster and you records are held in the Old Bailey High Court in London.

Does that make it credible? Hardly.

However rather predictably, anything that is anti-YMMSS or Anti-KIm, ; you lot believe it because it suits your agenda.

If I say anyithing pro-YMMSS, all I hear is "prove it".

concerned

July 22nd, 2005, 02:53 PM

People do things like this all the time. What about the guy's who are dragged into court on trumped up charges only to set free because the judge see's through all the smoke.

You are saying that this person's motive is for attention. Well then, what is your motive for trying to discredit him? Could it be profit? You cannot make more money from victims unless you quiet this guy, right? So who has a real motive here?

Thisbguy has blurted out a whole stream of allegations without so much as a shred of evidence.

First of all, he gave us an actual court house, and an actual name to check records against. How is that not evidence? Also, when are you going to back your allegations that YMMSS is legit with shreds of evidence? Again, you are acting hypocritical here.

concerned

July 22nd, 2005, 02:55 PM

That is so pathetic.

Okay, I say you are a credit card fraudster and you records are held in the Old Bailey High Court in London.

Does that make it credible? Hardly.

If you call that court and ask for the records and they give you them, then don't you think that is credible? You can't be that dumb, can you ?

If I say anyithing pro-YMMSS, all I hear is "prove it".

And everytime we say something negative about Kim, YOU say prove it, and we keep giving you proof. What is the difference here? Oh, the difference is that you keep forgeting the proof.

U-R-informed

July 22nd, 2005, 03:48 PM

I have been watching this for over 8 months now. The one thing I haven't seen is if Kim is doing all that you say then you haven't discussed how his family must know what is going on. Any takers?

To answer this very clearly, Kim's family is very involved in this and they all know what is going on. Also, many of his relatives are so skeptical they did not even give him money. Kim and his immediate family run this scam and if he tells you otherwise he is completely lying.

This is the last post I will ever make on this website for various reasons. Let me first state that I brought this out in the open not to get attention for myself, but to bring attention to a scam artist. That said I will leave the rest up to all who reads this to decide for themselves.

Gringo

July 22nd, 2005, 03:56 PM

If I say anyithing pro-YMMSS, all I hear is "prove it".
Yes, and just when are you going to prove it? Now you're demanding that someone else prove their statements, yet you continue to avoid and ignore repeated direct requests to support your claims. Who's the hypocrite?

Salsa

July 22nd, 2005, 04:09 PM

This is the last post I will ever make on this website for various reasons. Let me first state that I brought this out in the open not to get attention for myself, but to bring attention to a scam artist. That said I will leave the rest up to all who reads this to decide for themselves.
Thanks again for your time here, U-R-informed. We'll check out the information that you provided and use it to the best advantage of the many who have or might be victimized by Kim Inman scams.

Salsa
______________

Arzel

July 22nd, 2005, 08:23 PM

....Believe me I wish there was a way that we could ask these questions to Kim. I think he is probably watching this site, tonight my friend told me he messed up and accidentally said "insurance" instead of EPC's tonight on their conference call. I swear to god that is what I heard, you guys are better at finding that info online than I am so you could probably verify that.

He does say Insurance, I just got done listening to the call. He tries to say that it is because he is trying to work on providing insurance for the members or something like that. Not sure why YMMSS would want to, or why it's members would benifit, having an insurance policy through YMMSS. Just another thing that Kim is working on for the good of it's members. :rolleyes:

Deso

July 22nd, 2005, 09:48 PM

Well.. Thats done it for me! Ive been hanging around here, looking for info on YMMSS for a wee while now,just to see if Ive missed on a good opportunity or been saved by the good investigative work by the folks here. I have been reading with an open mind, Ive seen the negative posts about YMMSS and the posts by the pro-YMMSS folks. Ive spoken to Alan (but never met him to discuss the business plan) and I would just like to say that my personal opinion would be to avoid YMMSS like the plague!.
I cannot perceive just how so many good, intelligent godly folks can be suckered into to such a pile of amateurish, numbers-based scam the like I have ever came across.
Look at the homepage for instance:
www.ymmss.org - designed by a company who specialise in small or newly established businesses with "big ideas but small budgets". Littered with banner advertisements who they claim to own but are no more than affiliate links to other sites!.
I may be speaking out of turn but as a prospective member that was one of the biggest no-no's. I mean surely If you were a professional advertising company, your website would not be sending your visitors off to other sites(none of whom are your customers) to purchase items.
The YMGolf site is a joke, atleast I thought it was.. I mean who are Goldenfairwayfx.com ? Does Kim Inman own that site? or just another sad link earning a meagre income to put into the CPA? Maybe thats the outside income?
I know Im sounding disrespectful & I dont mean to be, after all It could have been my money he was frittering away, but I would strongly advise any prospective member to do their due diligence , do a search on "ymmss, scam,kim inman, mark" and see what you come up with. its entirely up to you! I chose to stick around here and watch the developments with YMMSS, its pro section namely, Alan aka, Darius,200K_Already,Shoes,Kotowicz (apologies for the spelling Alan) and the con section (pardon the pun) Arzel,DrZod,Salsa etc (apologies to whom I missed).
In my view, Alan promotes a trust culture with YMMSS in which he states Kim Inman is good etc etc. Im not knocking that, he may believe what he wishes. I am more enticed to support the factual, mathematical approach by Arzel and others who have systematically proved that YMMSS could not function indefinitely in its current state.
Given these facts,and others which have came to light in the past few months, I believe that YMMSS is a fatally flawed scam which will through time implode and will sadly take with it a lot of poor souls. (you included Alan).
I would not wish this upon anyone, so my advice, should you wish to act upon it, would be to forget joining ymmss or if your already involved, write off the money invested, shake yourself down and try to be wiser next time, after all there will always be newer scams to avoid.

Dreamer

July 23rd, 2005, 05:18 AM

Well, California may be too far away for me, but I'm contemplating flying out to do just what was said..some investigative work. See if I can get anything from the court house, if it doesnt get relased before i can get there. Talk to neighbors about kim. It might be worth taking a vacation out there and see if I can find anything good or bad for kim.

Despite what pro-ymmssers think of us here, I dont think anybody wants to destroy a good business, but isnt most of our goals here is to help people decide if it s legit or possbly not?

Maybe I'll wait until new system comes up, because I think that after the first month of the new payment plan ymmss will crash.

surfer

July 23rd, 2005, 10:59 AM

thinkaboutit's reply at scam.com (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=75396#post75396) Hopefully we
can get some facts from his friend in the
prosecutor's office.

If he has no luck, I'll probably just call up and
see what I can find out. If there is any truth
to this stuff, it would be nice to have some
documents to back it up.

I'm trying to see if thinkaboutit at Scam.com (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=74954#post74954) will
check into the courthouse for us and attempt to
verify U-R-Informed's statements.

As I stated there, whether or not a past history
actually exists, it won't change my views of
YMMSS. But if there is a pattern, members should
be aware of it.

Hopefully, he'll help out.

liveandlearn

July 23rd, 2005, 12:43 PM

Hi Everyone. I did some calling yesterday to the Knox County Clerk.
(812-885-2521) They told me that their records are not on computer so you have to come in personally or you can contact and hire the following people/co to do it for you:
Crossroads Research 812-299-0809 or
John Corrona 812-886-0016
She said either one of these places can help.

I also contacted the Vincennes City Attorneys office and the lady told me that she would ask if there was any information filed against Kim. She said she would get back to me.
Here is the name and number of the city attorney:
David Roellgen
812-882-2280

So if anyone else wants to call or do some checking maybe this info will be helpful. If I hear anything from th CA's office I will let you all know.

Liveandlearn

Dreamer

July 23rd, 2005, 04:38 PM

If anybody finds anything, whether good or bad for kim, or indifferent, pls post it. Even if he comes up as a saint, I would rather know that much, rather that continue to speculatate.

surfer

July 24th, 2005, 12:22 PM

Your efforts are appreciated liveandlearn. :applause:

Please let us know when you hear something
back.

Just want to prove or disprove this info and
move forward.
Hi Everyone. I did some calling yesterday to the Knox County Clerk.
(812-885-2521) They told me that their records are not on computer so you have to come in personally or you can contact and hire the following people/co to do it for you:
Crossroads Research 812-299-0809 or
John Corrona 812-886-0016
She said either one of these places can help.

I also contacted the Vincennes City Attorneys office and the lady told me that she would ask if there was any information filed against Kim. She said she would get back to me.
Here is the name and number of the city attorney:
David Roellgen
812-882-2280

So if anyone else wants to call or do some checking maybe this info will be helpful. If I hear anything from th CA's office I will let you all know.

Liveandlearn

surfer

July 25th, 2005, 03:59 PM

Another update from thinkaboutit at scam.com (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=76430#post76430)

i spent over and hour today at the courthouse . didnt have time to go back to the prosecutors office yet . but i searched the books under civil suits ( didnt check the criminal yet , will go back tommorrow) and only thing i found in documentation so far is kim inmans divorce.

now let me just say that the women behind the desk was pro ymmss.

then a cuople of other ladies came back from lunch and gave me all kinds of info , but i have no documentation to back it up , but the women have known kim forever.

one lady said that he was a charmer and could charm people right out of their money . after quitting his job at crane navel base started selling insurance . she said he couldnt keep a job very long .

tommorrow i will contact greg winkler of the indiana state police . apparently he has been working on ymmss for a while now . i'll see what he's got.

and i'll check back in with my friend from the prosecuters office .

most of the people that work at the knox county courthouse have money invested in ymmss so it might be hard to get much info . i think i found a couple of ladies that are willing to cooperate though.

concerned

July 25th, 2005, 04:22 PM

Salsa

July 25th, 2005, 04:27 PM

Good information. Maybe an anonymous tip to the local news affiliate would be in order. You know they would be all over a story where employees of a courthouse were participating in illegal get rich quick schemes. What do you all think?

What I think of that is, why didn't I think of that--instantly! You know how to turn lemons into lemonade, don't you? :)

Salsa
_________

concerned

July 25th, 2005, 04:48 PM

I sure do.

surfer

July 25th, 2005, 04:54 PM

Might want to let thinkaboutit, liveandlearn, and
whoever else is checking things out there finish
up before stirring the pot.

But I imagine it would be similar to the Anchorage
Daily News story on PIPS in Ketchikan, Alaska (http://www.adn.com/money/story/6407701p-6286056c.html) from
back in April.

For the pro-YMMSS crowd, this could be just
the ticket to vindicate the authenticity of Kim's
business model. ;)

Salsa

July 25th, 2005, 05:02 PM

I think you're right surfer. I also thought that it might be good to see just what difficulties thinkabout it has at the courthouse, etc. In case he doesn't already have it, I posted the Indiana Public Access to Court Records Handbook (http://www.in.gov/judiciary/admin/accesshandbook.pdf) in PDF format over at scam.com. I'm not sure if liveandlearn peeks in over there, so there it is again.

Salsa
_____________

Salsa

July 25th, 2005, 05:44 PM

Hmm. That just reminded me of the YMMSS article in the Vincennes Sun Commercial (http://www.suncommercial.com/articles/2005/03/19/columns/benjamin/benjamin.txt) by Randy Benjamin back in March. The link is from our own thread YMMSS In the Paper (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2536). Randy wasn't very pro-YMMSS at the time, and I suspect he would be even less so, now.

It looks like the Vincennes Sun-Commercial is the only act in town. It's not a very big town, less than 20K, about half way between Terra Haute (60K) and Evansville (120K). Here's an Indiana media rundown: Indiana newspapers, magazines, radio and TV stations (http://www.mondotimes.com/1/world/us/14).

Salsa
__________

sisco50

July 25th, 2005, 06:39 PM

Good information. Maybe an anonymous tip to the local news affiliate would be in order. You know they would be all over a story where employees of a courthouse were participating in illegal get rich quick schemes. What do you all think?

So because they are employees of a courthouse they are not given the same benefit of the doubt that all other participants are given? They must automatically know that they are participating in an illegal get rich quick scheme? You people are really something else! :( I hope this doesn't come back to haunt you but I can see where it might. Just my opinion but I think it has some merit. Look before you leap comes to mind here. :(

Arzel

July 25th, 2005, 08:17 PM

So because they are employees of a courthouse they are not given the same benefit of the doubt that all other participants are given? They must automatically know that they are participating in an illegal get rich quick scheme? You people are really something else! :( I hope this doesn't come back to haunt you but I can see where it might. Just my opinion but I think it has some merit. Look before you leap comes to mind here. :(

You do make a good point. Perhaps it could be approached from the angle that they may not even realize they are participating it what appears to be an illegal ponzi scheme.

Prudence must be maintained though.

surfer

July 28th, 2005, 09:11 AM

Another update from thinkaboutit at scam.com (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=77670#post77670)

all of the people who were supposed to get back with me found nothing on kim having a court record or anything else . so either were all bad detectives or the allegations made against kim were false . but ive checked everywhere i could think of and came up with no proof of anything . there are alot of people in knox county complaining about kim but apparently no claims have been filed. sorry to those of you that were counting on me , but if the allegations are true im just not finding any proof . indeed i have heard things firsthand from the people i talked to but i will not post it without something to back it with .

if i think of more places to go i will definately check them out and keep you all posted , but as its looking i wouldnt be expecting to hear much.

All that could be verified to this point is simple
hearsay, some of which we have heard about
previously.

thinkaboutit has done his best and will continue
his efforts to try and verify U-R-Informed's allegations.

Perhaps U-R-Informed could PM Arzel with a little
help if he hopes to have his allegations substantiated.

Right now, we can't find any of the documentation
referred to.

We can't simply take you at your word U-R-Informed.
Just as we have documentation about Kim's deceptive
tactics with YMMSS, we need proof of these charges.
Any further help would be appreciated.

If you want to get info straight from the "Horses Mouth" I suggest you write him a letter or pay him a visit. Here is his home address:

Personal information is not allowed on the forum. We have saved this information, and anyone wanting it just needs to contact a forum moderator. Thank You

Concerned

****Also, to let everyone know....I grew up in the same town as Kim and if you want to get a good idea of what kind of a person he is then check out the court records for Knox County in Vincennes Indiana, and also ask people in Sandburg, IN about his "Insurance Deals." I think there are a lot of local officials who would be happy to tell the tales of elderly people losing hundreds and thousands of dollars on "good life insurance deals." Also, he is an avid MLM guy who used to try and recruit many of my friends and his co-workers at Crane Naval Base, until they finally got annoyed to the point they complained to the supervising managers that Kim continously solicited money from them on the job.

****Look, the bottom line is many of my friends have joined YMMSS because Kim promised them money and they are hurting now because of this, an Kim is not returning their calls. He is putting a lot of money into his house and spending money like crazy while the majority of people in YMMSS struggle. He has himself refferred to YMMSS as a really complex MLM that can never be touched by any district attorney.

**** I am not a member of YMMSS, nor would I ever give that man money, and I feel sorry for people who stand to lose a lot. I was told about this website recently by a friend who is a member of YMMSS and I thought it is only right to tell people the truth from folks who know Kim. Bottom line is, whether you wish to believe me or not, Kim Inman is and has been for over 10 years involved in MLM scams and insurance fraud and will eventually split with your money, trust me on this.

**** Ask the people who have been sent to Belize to work on the "Resort" for him and they will gladly tell you that he is blowing YMMSS's money on what he calls (honest to god) his tropical hideout.

This is all I will say on this , and I feel good about hopefully helping at least a couple of people avoid being bilked out of money they need and have worked hard to get. It is disgusting and I hope that when he splits that he always feels like someone is after him, because people like him who fraud and profit off of poor and desperate people deserve to suffer themselves.

Good night and I hope this helps some of you when deciding to try his scam!

Train

August 5th, 2005, 03:11 AM

thinkaboutit

August 5th, 2005, 04:28 AM

i am still unable to find any courthouse documents . but there has been more than a few dozen local vincennes indiana folk to tell me that kim has never been on the up and up .

and those needing proof or documentation the only thing i can say is i dont think there is any . ive looked high and low. i cant seem to ever catch dave roellgen from the city attorneys office .

Elvis

August 5th, 2005, 10:37 AM

check this out http://www.independencegathering.com/ interesting? Elvis has just left the forum.

surfer

August 5th, 2005, 12:29 PM

does anyone have any more information about the court documents? UR-informed has not given us any further direction even though we have obviously hit a dead end. i feel a little like i've been left hanging.

even if this turns out to be an attempt to smear Kim Inman, it still doesn't change my opinion on YMMSS and Kim Inman. unfortunately, it doesn't look good on those who are trying to dissuade people from throwing their money away on YMMSS.

The fact that some of our members have attempted
to verify these claims should show people that we
take such allegations seriously, but do not accept
them as fact simply because they support our views.

People entertaining the idea of investing in YMMSS
should only need what we do have documented of
his recent lies over the last year or two in order to
make their decision.

Similar to the positive hearsay from members of the
ponzi that Kim has surrounded himself with, thinkaboutit
has uncovered a number of opposite views of Kim
Inman in the man's hometown. People can weigh
the positive and negative on their own merits and
go from there.

But we definitely don't need people making claims
that can't be backed up, from either side.

surfer

August 5th, 2005, 12:31 PM

U-R-informed

August 5th, 2005, 04:41 PM

I am replying to what has been posted here and I wanted to say that I am not trying to smear anyone or bring accusations to any undeserving person/persons.

As to answer those who have tried to obtain the any documents at the courthouse all I can say is that Kim's fraud problems were a number of years ago, 7-10 years ago, so it is very possible that they are no longer on record.
That does not mean that they have not or do not exist.

Those who have lived in this area for years know all to well that he is ripping people off. I apologize if it seems that I have led anyone on a wild-goose chase, but I am 100% positive that he has had his day in court and has hurt many people financially in the past.

If you want to continue looking for info try contacting the local newspapers (Vincennes Sun-Gazette for instance) they might be able to obtain documentation.

All I can say is that I am not here to destroy anything or slander anyone's name. Take what I say as you will, but I believe that I am doing the RIGHT thing in getting this info out there.

By the way ask Kim who paid for his daughter's recent wedding, I bet you many of you did.

U-R-informed

August 5th, 2005, 04:53 PM

The newspaper is actually Vincennes Sun-commercial, not gazette. Gazette is the school's paper.

thinkaboutit

August 6th, 2005, 01:29 AM

The newspaper is actually Vincennes Sun-commercial, not gazette. Gazette is the school's paper.

i have been to the sun-commercial , i have been in contact with randy benjamin as well . he is the one who wrote the article in the paper about ymmss. i asked him for info and he had none nor did he know where to look for any . so i tried the public library and looked thru there papers as often as i can ( so far nothing ) but i havent looked as far back as 7 to 10 years either.

i live in vincennes , if you have any info that could help me then just give me a pm . you said you knew things but would not speak them . just lead me in the right direction . give me contacts if you know any.

gypsy

August 8th, 2005, 05:22 AM

May i please ask a few questions?

Is there any legitimate internet business that does not cause negativity between groups of people?

is there anyone on the internet that does not gain from the people below them?

is there any business that you can point me in the direction of where i will make money and not be ostracised for doing so?

is there some positiveness in this world....or are you all just so negative that you wont even give something a try

YMMSS....the requirements are...you pay $10 for 1 epc......if thats all you buy it costs you $10....and believe me....its your choice to buy it.....KIM certainly didnt hold a gun to my head to buy 1 epc

now if i sit on that $10.....in 15 months or so....it becomes a weekly income for me......even if i only get $1 for it....in 10 weeks i get my money back......20 weeks ive doubled it......hell thats better than putting my $10 in my bank account

so.......how can kim be a criminal if thats all thats required......oh and yes...affiliates have to read ads for 30 mins......wow.....send the man to jail right now.....lol....you lot are so very very funny

Gypsy

surfer

August 8th, 2005, 08:16 AM

May i please ask a few questions?
Sure. ;)

Is there any legitimate internet business that does not cause negativity between groups of people?
Yep. However, any business of substantial size will
have its detractors.

is there anyone on the internet that does not gain from the people below them?
Yep.

is there any business that you can point me in the direction of where i will make money and not be ostracised for doing so?
Sure, anything that provides something of value to real
customers without promising the "income of their dreams"
for doing nothing.

is there some positiveness in this world....or are you all just so negative that you wont even give something a try
A number of people here did give YMMSS a try. But
Kim Inman's hype and lies have created negativity.

The rest of us saw the ponzi game early on for exactly
what it was.

YMMSS....the requirements are...you pay $10 for 1 epc......if thats all you buy it costs you $10....and believe me....its your choice to buy it.....KIM certainly didnt hold a gun to my head to buy 1 epc
You left out the other $10 that goes to lining Kim's pockets.

You are right, con men don't hold a gun to their victims'
heads. Instead, they sell them a bushel full of lies about
how they can make the income of their dreams by simply
forking over their cash and doing virtually nothing. They
prey on the desperate, the naive, and the greedy.

I guess you think it is okay to lie to people about what
they can expect for their money and participation as long
as you don't "hold a gun" to their head.

Your line of thinking seems to indicate that it is alright
for people to do such things as con senior citizens out
of their life savings buying into a scam because they
weren't "forced" to do so.

now if i sit on that $10.....in 15 months or so....it becomes a weekly income for me......even if i only get $1 for it....in 10 weeks i get my money back......20 weeks ive doubled it......hell thats better than putting my $10 in my bank account

so.......how can kim be a criminal if thats all thats required......oh and yes...affiliates have to read ads for 30 mins......wow.....send the man to jail right now.....lol....you lot are so very very funny
Gee, I don't think working for less than $2/hour is what
Kim Inman promotes, is it? No, he's clever enough to
get people to part with a lot more than that using
whatever lies he can think up to pry those wallets
open.

So glad you feel that stealing from people and ruining
lives is a laughing matter. You are a perfect fit for
Kim Inman's business model.

AvidA

August 8th, 2005, 11:49 AM

Leonidas

August 8th, 2005, 11:53 AM

May i please ask a few questions?

now if i sit on that $10.....in 15 months or so....it becomes a weekly income for me......even if i only get $1 for it....in 10 weeks i get my money back......20 weeks ive doubled it......hell thats better than putting my $10 in my bank account

so.......how can kim be a criminal if thats all thats required......oh and yes...affiliates have to read ads for 30 mins......wow.....send the man to jail right now.....lol....you lot are so very very funny

Gypsy

If you can't turn $10 into more than $20 in 19 months then I guess YMMSS is the perfect business for you :applause:

L

surfer

August 8th, 2005, 12:11 PM

Good Lord! I have been watching this forum for months and now look at what it's become! Where's the intelligent voice of Arzel??? This is just mud-slinging! "Kim Inman is evil, he's a con man...maybe we can dig dirt up here or there and sling some more mud...hehehehe" You all sound like children anymore. And I have to agree that Kim Inman fooling people on 15-20 different scams is such blowhard talk!! U-R-Informed,....you need to get informed FIRST. Then it will be good stuff!
This site used to be full of articulate, mathematical explanations that I could count on from Arzel and others. Now look what you've become! Get with the PROOF. It makes for much better reading and copying and pasting to other people who have felt cheated by YMMSS. What can I do with this junk? NOTHING!

And I noticed Arzel hasn't said much lately. Arzel, you must see that this is fruitless talk here. Get the facts and give me the proof. Quit your gossiping!

We don't control what people bring here AvidA.

If someone claims that there is proof of previous
fraudulent behavior somewhere, what would you
expect us to do? Ignore it? Delete it? Or attempt
to verify it?

We will keep posting the math behind our beliefs,
but YMMSS supporters rarely address that aspect
of it. Their arguments are always about Kim's
integrity, the ponzi worked for two years, etc., etc.

All I need to look at is recent history to shape my
views of his integrity. But if there is a verifiable
pattern, don't you think it should be known?

I could understand your views if we had all just
hopped on board and accepted the accusations
without attempting to verify. I appreciate the
efforts of thinkaboutit, liveandlearn, and anyone
else who has been attempting to prove whether
or not these things are true.

AvidA

August 8th, 2005, 12:40 PM

I appreciate the
efforts of thinkaboutit, liveandlearn, and anyone
else who has been attempting to prove whether
or not these things are true.

Yes, and I would agree with that if it had already been proven. I have invited a lot of YMers here to this forum since it's less communistic. I can tell you that they're looking for proof and not just someone trying to prove it. I am sorry, Surfer as you have always been one of my faves, but this just appears to be mudslinging. It really does. And while your attempts to prove it are commendable, it would look much more professional the way it used to be...when your numbers and good old fashioned common sense were proof enough.

As it is, it looks like some of the folks on here are just looking for something to dig up on this man because they can't find anything wrong with the new programme. Why can't we just stick to that? There's more proof there in finding out whether Kim is a "bad con man" then there ever will be in acting like paparazzi to dig up dirt on he and his family. I have had YMers turn away from this forum since the new programme because it all seems to be a "Kim Inman hate" thing. It looks like jealousy....and ohhhh I am not saying it is. But it does look like that and I can see why some of them don't want to believe this. It's not helping. :shake:

Arzel

August 8th, 2005, 01:02 PM

Yes, and I would agree with that if it had already been proven. I have invited a lot of YMers here to this forum since it's less communistic. I can tell you that they're looking for proof and not just someone trying to prove it. I am sorry, Surfer as you have always been one of my faves, but this just appears to be mudslinging. It really does. And while your attempts to prove it are commendable, it would look much more professional the way it used to be...when your numbers and good old fashioned common sense were proof enough.

As it is, it looks like some of the folks on here are just looking for something to dig up on this man because they can't find anything wrong with the new programme. Why can't we just stick to that? There's more proof there in finding out whether Kim is a "bad con man" then there ever will be in acting like paparazzi to dig up dirt on he and his family. I have had YMers turn away from this forum since the new programme because it all seems to be a "Kim Inman hate" thing. It looks like jealousy....and ohhhh I am not saying it is. But it does look like that and I can see why some of them don't want to believe this. It's not helping. :shake:

This is a natural progression during a restructure phase. Unfortunately nothing we can say will disuade anyone at this point. We can no longer use the old Ponzi/Matrix math and logic. Even though the system is still crashing along, everyone is in the mindset of the "new" system and disregarding all of the old logic.

Since the new system is not yet in place, we have little to use for mathmatical models. We can say that each share will be only worth $2.59 based of current CPA amounts, but no one believes anything anyone is saying so that logic falls on deaf ears as well.

What more can we say about a new system, just as bad as the old system that we have not already said? Every week the value of a share will go down, because the number of mature reading credits will increase. The amount of money going into the CPA is decreasing over time, which will only further depress the value of a reading credit.

Personally I would like to see this thread dissapear. Right now it does more benefit to Kim than to us trying to show that YMMSS is a scam. I would like it to dissapear, because I am certain that it's very pressence will lure more people into YMMSS because nothing concrete has been found.

However, to go down that road would be to follow in YMMSS's footsteps, deleting anything and everything that they do not like. Thus is the price of free speach. And if Kim and his minions cannot handle this (which is actually to their benefit in it's current state) then they have chosen the wrong profession.

surfer

August 8th, 2005, 01:11 PM

Point well taken AvidA. :)

The flaws in the new system are essentially the
same as in the old system.

Rising cycle times have been exchanged for shrinking
weekly payments.

Kim's example of $3.09/week is definitely high at this
point. As mentioned in Esto's thread, the current value
would be a max of $2.59(probably closer to $1.50) and
shrinking each week.

One thing this shift has done is effectively sidetrack
people from Kim Inman's previous promises and his claims
of how the business was allegedly designed to work.

There is a lot of psychology involved in keeping these
schemes floating.

Just as we tried to get people to realize the impossibility
of the perpetual doubling of funds, we now need people
to think about exactly how Kim Inman is going to keep
"share value" at a steady level when there will be thousands
of new positions coming into the RFA account every week
and how this correlates to his proclaimed goal of 100K people
making $100K.

Just like many YMMSS affiliates, we are a bit in limbo
until all details on the new plan are released.

Whether it's here, scam.com, or the YMForums, you will
always have to sift through some B.S. to get to the truth.

I'll do my best to get back in your good graces. :D And
as soon as I have some more concrete numbers, I'll be
back to more factual analysis.

Just bear with us during this brief intermission while we
wait on Mr. Inman. If you would like to see anything
specific, don't hesitate to mention it or PM one of us and
we'll do our best to oblige.

thinkaboutit

August 8th, 2005, 03:37 PM

As it is, it looks like some of the folks on here are just looking for something to dig up on this man because they can't find anything wrong with the new programme. Why can't we just stick to that? There's more proof there in finding out whether Kim is a "bad con man" then there ever will be in acting like paparazzi to dig up dirt on he and his family. I have had YMers turn away from this forum since the new programme because it all seems to be a "Kim Inman hate" thing. It looks like jealousy....and ohhhh I am not saying it is. But it does look like that and I can see why some of them don't want to believe this. It's not helping. :shake:

i for one am not hoping to dig up dirt on kim inman , i want to dig up facts . i just want to know the truth . if there is something out there i want to show it to all my family and friends that are in ymmss spending money all the time . i couldnt be happier if i found out that kim was legit and a saint.

thinkaboutit

August 8th, 2005, 03:49 PM

btw , i have ended my search for dirt on kim inman here in vincennes . im just waiting to see what happens with the new system.

AvidA

August 8th, 2005, 06:04 PM

Arzel! you're back! lol And as ever the voice of reason. And, Surfer, you've always been in my good graces...really! I just thought that thread was going nowhere and YMers were starting to believe again...even calling me to say so, because of the childish nature in which this thread was headed. People laugh at us but there are some really angry and even broken hearted YMers who WANT-with all their heart- to believe. I think this forum is to show them why NOT to believe and how to take action.

Awhile back, Arzel told me to contact the AG in my state..which I did and to no response. But these are a start. There factual and what we need to heal as busted up YM believers...LOL I know that sounds funny but while I am disappointed in myself as much as YM, many people, as I stated are just a mess over all of this. And it's not funny and it's not worth anything more than to fight it. This forum is a great start...always has been for me. I don't want any of you to think that I have not always appreciated you and your non-communistic forum. because I have and I do. But I want others to see what I see as well.

Thinkbaoutit-I hope you find something solid since you're so close. Many people there are, indeed, cultish. But many are confused and/or downright discouraged. Remember: I have been a member since 2003 and have never been paid. I cycled many times! haha But I have paper to show for it and there are no dead presidents on it. :)

Thanks for all your responses. Much more productive, I think! :) ;)

Arzel

August 8th, 2005, 06:25 PM

Arzel! you're back! lol And as ever the voice of reason.

Thanks AvidA.

I have been quite busy doing my actual job lately. Just like Kim working 150% at YMMSS I must do the same with my real job, and yet I somehow still have time to calculate the erroneous math of YMMSS. :D

Awhile back, Arzel told me to contact the AG in my state..which I did and to no response. But these are a start.

Do not give up to quickly on these agencies. They are aware of YMMSS, what they will do and how quickly they may act upon this I do not know, but it is on their radar screen.

Mat_Watcher

August 8th, 2005, 06:54 PM

Remember: I have been a member since 2003 and have never been paid. I cycled many times!

You cycled many times and never been paid?

When You purchased Your EPCs You can select what YOU want to do with commissions through payment options.

YOU were been paid every time a position cycled and YOU decided to repurchase automatically new EPCs with commissions.

It WAS YOUR choise to repurchase new EPCs with them.

If YOU selected the Claim via website option,available at any level of payment,instead of any other,YOU were paid the whole amount to YOUR payments processors account.

YOU DO NOT selected that option.

Many Thanks

surfer

August 8th, 2005, 08:08 PM

That's one of the great illusions of Kim Inman,
Mat_Watcher.

AvidA was "paid" with EPCs while Kim got 22%
in real cash from the CPA.

The YMMSS ponzi is designed to encourage you
to leave your money in the system. Otherwise,
how will you build your dream income.

I won't go into the funny money cycling system
with you, but I will make the same suggestion to
you as I did to Esto about the highly inflated
commissions paid stats.

Go ask any potential retailer what they think is
meant when Mike Hamilton tells them that over
$93M has been "paid" in commissions to YMMSS
affiliates. That number is total deception of any
potential clients and it's going to bite him in the
rear a few times.

Real commissions paid would be the total sent
to the payment processor's that affiliates could
actually use to spend with retailers. And I would
be astounded if the real total was more than 10%
-15% of the claimed "paid" stats.

If I bought 100 320s on October 25th, 2004 and
had them set on repurchase, then I would have
recently been "paid" $64,000.00. But guess what,
no money in my pocket to spend with any retailers. :nono:
And when the new system kicks in, I might get a
couple hundred per week from my $32K investment.
still operating in the red with no positive cash flow
to spend on the retailers.

And if I remember correctly, AvidA was one of many
who were told directly by Kim Inman that cycle times
would never exceed 90 days. I'm sure I'll be corrected
if I'm wrong. :D

AvidA was also lured in with the bogus power of $10,
buying 2 $10s per week starting in 2003.

Depending on when in 2003 AvidA joined, some of those
$10s probably are now $320s, which will begin to pay a
whole couple dollars per week maximum with the new
system. Not quite the income of one's dreams from 2
years of waiting. And nowhere near $320 every 90
days or less as originally promised.

If AvidA is willing to answer this, I would be interested
to know exactly how much out of pocket money you have
tied up in YMMSS, how many positions(and their current
values), and how close your nearest ones are to cycling
again. If that's all too personal, no problem. I just wanted
to play around with some figures. :D

Mat_Watcher

August 8th, 2005, 08:54 PM

Arzel

August 9th, 2005, 12:33 AM

The Commissions Payouts stats.

All positions that were processed have been cycled only if the whole amount of commissions due was available as real cash in the CPA.
The option members have selected determine what was done with this real cash.
If the only option was been the claim via website,this cash was been sent to members.
Members needed to repurchase themselves if this was their willing.
The sytem allowed to do it automatically and this not change the result at the end of the payment process.
The real cash was sent to member and member repurchased new EPCs.
The $93,000,000 paid out reflect all commissions sent to members.
What members decided to do with them is only up to members,whatever automatically or manually managed,this was the members willing.
Who wasn't full comfortable with,just needed to claim the commissions the first time they cycled,take back what was spent and repurchase with commissions.And this is was I suggested to do with all my few prospects.
I'm not the right person to debate how YMMSS was promoted,
there were many programs payng in less time than YMMSS and I never sent a penny to them.
I simply followed the full project and ,for my opinion,is one of the best I never seen in these years.
The time will give the answers on others issues as retailers and weekly payouts.

Many thanks

Mat_Watcher, You are just towing the company line, we have all read this before, but it just doesn't make sense mathmatically, based on what is known about the CPA there is no way that $93 million has been actually paid out to members.

Let's look at a simple example.

$100,000 is in the CPA at the start of a processing day. Positions are split evenly between Claim via Website and repurchase until notify, all at the $320 level.

Position #1 is CvW
Position #2 is Repurchase.
Position #3 is CvW
ect..

#1 - Pays $640
#2 - Pays $640 immediately repurchases for $640 with $160 (25%) going to admin and $480 going back into the CPA.

There are two ways to view these two postions.

1 - $1,280 is paid out with $480 of that going back into the CPA for future processing.

156 positions are paid with $49,920 being paid to members, $12,480 being paid to admin ($62,480 total), with $37,600 going into the CPA for the next processing day.

2 - $1,280 is paid out with $480 being used for current processing. Each two positions costs YMMSS $800 ($640 going to a member and $160 going to admin).

250 positions are paid for a total of $100,000 being paid, with $80,000 being paid to members and $20,000 being paid to admin, however according to the CPA paid it appears that $160,000 has been paid out, when in all reality only half of that has been paid.

Which method do you think YMMSS uses? In either case the amount actually paid out is not the same as the ammount listed as paid out. This is why most feel the reported CPA paid is grossly overestimated.

According to Esto the numbers using the CvW are quite low, only a few percentage, so the discrepency would be much greater than my example.

AvidA

August 9th, 2005, 02:16 PM

Mat_Watcher

August 9th, 2005, 02:17 PM

Arzel

August 9th, 2005, 02:42 PM

surfer

August 9th, 2005, 02:43 PM

I understand the logic that you and affiliates
like Corey have about how the system works,
Mat_Watcher.

Perhaps a better way to explain my view is
that YMMSS affiliates have two options when
a position comes up to cycle.

1. They can choose to be paid.
2. They can choose to leave the money in the
system to compound their earnings, just like you
do with an investment.

Until they take money out of the system, they
have not been paid and it should not be considered
as commissions paid.

If these are truly deemed as commissions paid, then
the 1099s issued should include the amounts for
recycled positions just as my bank provides on
interest earned over the year. Perhaps we should
add tax fraud onto our list of Kim Inman's violations.

AvidA is a perfect example of this. If AvidA had opted
to actually be paid, there would not be 367 positions
in the system.

According to the system and the numbers that Mike
Hamilton will be presenting to retailers, AvidA has
made thousands of dollars that could allegedly be
spent on their merchandise. That is a blatant
deception of potential clients because it is not
true.

AvidA

August 9th, 2005, 02:58 PM

Amen and amen, Surfer. Oh! And here's another surprise! I've never had to be given a 1099! Imagine!

surfer

August 9th, 2005, 03:14 PM

Yes, Surfer. I am happy to oblige you. I have 28 320 positions waiting to cycle which they never will. I have a total of 367 positions--250 of which I bought. So, my total spend was 2500 dollars USD. I have a variation of 20's 40's, 80's and of course an entourage of 160's.

All I can say to Matrix Watcher is that I have set my 320 positions to claim via website and still have nothing. I am disabled and thought this would be best. I HELD UP MY END OF THE DEAL according to the original terms of agreement that I signed on the original webpage. I am talking a LONG time ago...back when Kim had his whole family's portrait up. I was one of the first 1 or 2000. (can't remember..I know it was close to two thousand members if not a little more) Esto made money because he paid out big in the first place...he could afford more than me. He joined after me; this is how I know. I "had patience" for the bigger payout so I could get off of disability. Well, I am still on disability and 2500 dollars poorer (which is a tremedous amount for me) I would be happy to get that much back. Maybe I will with the new payment structure but maybe I won't. I know this: I am wiser and come here for the "flip of the coin" and I would, too, if I were you. Oh! That's right! You ARE here! Smart! After all, what do we have to LOSE????????????????????????????????????

Thank you AvidA.

Hopefully if/when the new system is put in place,
revenue will get you at least $1 or $2 for each
mature position.

You'll then be able to see each week as their
value gradually goes down.

If Mike Hamilton does a bang up job, you may
even see a temporary stabilization or spike in
value.

Here is a little comparison of share value then
versus now.

August 9, 2004 cycle times were 83 days. This
would be worth about $27/week. That figure
is probably a little inflated because the system
was already starting to fall behind,

August 9, 2005 we have cycle times at 286 days.
That should correlate to about $7.83/week but
it revenue generation is so far behind that the
true value is less than $3.00/week.

In just one year's time, YMMSS "shares" have lost
almost 90% of their value.

For someone to make $100K/year under the current
situation going into the new system, they would need
upwards of 1000+ matured positions. And that's only
if YMMSS could generate enough revenue to maintain
value for an entire year.

Salsa

August 9th, 2005, 04:32 PM

Thanks Arzel for Your example and Surfer for Your thoughts.

But as usual I have to disagree on some of Your points.

If the only option of YMMSS was been the CMW,
(always pay out all commissions due and let members to do what they will)
still members were keeping to purchase new positions and
the commissions payouts amount sent to members payments processors accounts
will match the commissions payouts stats of YMMSS.
Does'nt matter if YMMSS was providing an automated way to repurchase.
The commissions payouts stats correctly reflect the amount of transactions made, through YMMSS or others payment processors ,payng out commissions due.

The next step is support retailers with part of commissions paid instead of keeping repurchasing positions to be cycled.

The $10 purchase promoted as the best option reflect this spirit.
Spend less with YMMSS to spend more through YMMSS.
Time period affiliates will be constantly paid and they will have more cash to spend with retailers.

Many thanksHi Mat_Watcher,

Here's my go at it. While you are technically correct that all EPCs are purchased with real cash, I think what surfer and Arzel are pointing out is that most of it is cash that never enters affiliates' pockets. Of the nearly $95M "commissions paid" since YMCA's beginning, probably not more than $35M has been paid out to affiliates in cash that they can put in their pockets.

To see if we agree on how the system works, lets use the example of an affiliate purchasing one EPC ($10) and letting it repurchase until it produces a recurring income of $320. By the time the affiliate would receive his first $320 of cash in his pocket, he would have purchased not one EPC, but 95, paying $950 for them (1+2+4+8+16+32+32=95). All 95 of these EPCs would be purchased with real cash, the first one directly from the affiliate's pocket and the other 94 by YMMSS on the affiliate's behalf whenever there is enough cash in the CPA that has been earmarked for that position in the matrix to take it to the next level.

Continuing the example, by the time of that first cash payout of $320 to the affiliate, the commissions "paid" to him would be reported at $1,260 ($20+40+80+160+320=$940 in repurchases, plus $320 in cash equals $1,260). So, by this time, YMMSS has credited itself for paying $1,260 in commissions while it has actually put only $320 in the affiliate's pocket.

I'll also point out that the affiliate in my example is a very fortunate member of the small minority of YMMSSers who have received any cash in pocket at all. Had the affiliate followed the advice of many YMMSS promoters, setting his mature position to repurchase instead of recurring income, YMMSS would still claim to have paid $1,260 in commissions while the affiliate would have received nothing in his pocket. I think that this is the discrepancy between "commissions paid" and actual cash paid that surfer and Arzel are referring to.

You are also correct that affiliates have had the option (at least in the past) to use CVW, and I commend you for suggesting to your recruits to consider using it. It also shows your own skepticism about YMMSS's long-term viability, which is a healthy thing. But consider that if everyone had done that from the beginning, YMMSS would have crashed in its first weeks or months of operation. Also, for many months CVW has not been a practical option for most affiliates due to the enormous rate at which cycle times have increased.

The thing that has given YMMSS a longevity far beyond that of most Ponzis is the way it was designed to hang on to affiliate money (via repurchasing) while appearing to pay them huge amounts in commissions, giving affiliates a false sense of confidence and well-being while encouraging them to pour ever more money into it.

The really diabolical thing about the repurchasing features (especially starting with $10 postitions) promoted by YMMSS, however, is not the longevity that they have permitted YMMSS but the way they allow administration to repeatedly skim it's 25% off the top of all those repurchases, practically invisibly. It is this consequence of repurchasing that allows administration to take more money from the system than all affiliates combined--while most affiliates are barely suspicious of how keenly the system was designed to abuse them.

Salsa
__________

Salsa

August 9th, 2005, 08:28 PM

Amen and amen, Surfer. Oh! And here's another surprise! I've never had to be given a 1099! Imagine!Mat_Watcher, here's a prime example of how even YMMSS admin doesn't regard their reported commissions paid as actual commissions paid. AvidA didn't provide an exact breakdown of his positions, but given his purchase amounts, positions owned and approximate history with YMMSS, I'd estimate that he has been "paid" a total of around $70,000 according to the way YMMSS reports its total of $94M in commissions paid. But in legal terms, even YMMSS admits the truth that it has paid him zero commissions by not sending him a 1099.

Salsa
______

drzod

August 10th, 2005, 09:17 AM

Leonidas

August 10th, 2005, 01:36 PM

Very good info Drzod and AvidA, I would like to see answers for that.

L

Salsa

August 10th, 2005, 01:54 PM

I joined YM on 01/05/04 with $370. I bought a $320 EPC, a $40 EPC, and a $10 EPC. In addition, I set my income option to repurchase EPC's until notified so that I could "double my money" every cycle.

After the first cycle (Mar 04) I had the following:

2 $320 EPC's
1 $80 EPC
1 $20 EPC
Total: $740

The second cycle (Jun 04) I had the following:

4 $320 EPC's
1 $160 EPC
1 $40 EPC
Total: $1480

The third cycle (Sep 04) I had the following:

9 $320 EPC's
1 $80 EPC
Total: $2960

My last cycle (Dec 04), I had the following:

18 $320 EPC's
1 $160 EPC
Total: $5920

None of my positions since Dec 04 cycled before I was kicked out in Jul 05.

Mat_Watcher, does YMMSS say that it paid me $5500 in commissions?(740+1480+2960+5920)/2 (50% of commissions go back into the CPA.)

If so, it is wrong, because I never received a penny from YM; thus, I had no additional funds to spend on advertisers.Thanks for the details DrZod,

Your summation, however, was a little too generous to YMMSS. For figuring what YMMSS would consider "commissions paid" to you (contributing to the $94M) it would be $11,100. The $5,920 was only what they "paid" you upon your last cycle--and used it to repurchase new EPCs on your behalf. Upon your previous three cycles they had "paid" you a total of $5,180--also used to repurchase EPCs on your behalf--for a total of $11,100.

There was no need for you to do the division by two as you did in your calculations. And actually it was 75% ($8,325) of your total repurchases that went back to the CPA--after Kim & company took its 25% ($2,775).

To tidy things up, add the 25% that Kim & company took from your initial purchases of $370 ($92.50), and Kim & company's total take from your involvement in YMMSS was $2,867.50

To sum up:
$370 was your initial investment in YMMSS
$11,100 is the claimed "commissions paid" you, contributing to the $94M
zero is the actual cash commissions paid to you.
$2,867.50 is Kim & company's take from YMMSS due to your involvement
$370 was eventually refunded to you
$2,497.50 was all that poor Kim had from your involvement after refunding
$2.47 (just for fun) is my estimate of how much of your money is in esto's pocket (unless he was your sponsor)

An important question here is, how is it possible for Kim & company to "make" $2,867.50 from your $370 investment in one year? The answer is, it can only do this by making the same false promises to later members as it did to you--cheating them out of their money as it attempted to with you--with clear intent.

Salsa
________

Salsa

August 10th, 2005, 02:36 PM

$2.47 (just for fun) is my estimate of how much of your money is in esto's pocket (unless he was your sponsor)To clarify this, the $2.47 is my estimate of esto's take from the initial $370 that DrZod invested. His total take from DrZods invovement in YMMSS, including the money cheated from later members, would be a bit over $50.00 according to the estimate.

Salsa
_________

Mat_Watcher

August 10th, 2005, 02:37 PM

Thank You all for the reply.

What a members decided to do with his commissions move numbers from a table to another,but do not change the fact that these numbers are real and the money paid out is exactly over $93,000,000.

And this is only from Jan 2004 commissions,not from the beginning June 2002.

If a member don't want declare his income with 1099 that's still a member choise.They may have been encouraged,NOT forced, on keeping on repurchase,but each positions has been processed following what members decided to do with it.
What laws can say about what is an income or not to be declared have no effect on these numbers.

What I suggested to my prospects to claim their principal funds back as soon as possible and keep purchasing through commissions do not depends from my own skepticism about YMMSS's long-term viability.
I think from the beginning it will last for very long term.

It depends from what can happen in the life everyday.
Today I'm here,tomorrow I don't know.

My lasts thoughts are for who say we ,the members,don't have money for retailers.

Instead of keeping to repurchase just needed to change a couple of positions on recurring or claim to have some cash back for buy something You need or like.

But what I can't really understand is how everybody can be still alive.

Nobody out there buy his daily needs?No foods,no gas,no phone,nothing?
Out of the cash sent and received from YMMSS,there is no money to purchases everydays products or services?
If the products of services everybody needs everyday are being advertised through YMMSS,
why don't buy part of them from YMMSS retailers instead from usual providers?

The project is going to the next step and when it will be a little bit established I can see only benefits for all.

Everythings members can buy from retailers will give sales out of which money is used.
As new sales will make more effective the system,more retailers will come.
More retailers will come means new funds coming in and more money for all.

Many thanks

Arzel

August 10th, 2005, 03:01 PM

Thank You all for the reply.

What a members decided to do with his commissions move numbers from a table to another,but do not change the fact that these numbers are real and the money paid out is exactly over $93,000,000.

And this is only from Jan 2004 commissions,not from the beginning June 2002.

If a member don't want declare his income with 1099 that's still a member choise.They may have been encouraged,NOT forced, on keeping on repurchase,but each positions has been processed following what members decided to do with it.
What laws can say about what is an income or not to be declared have no effect on these numbers.

Mat_Watcher, what country do you live in? Reporting of income over $600 is not an option in the US. YMMSS knows this, most individuals in the US know this. YMMSS would not risk outright tax fraud by not sending out 1099's to its members that have clearly made enough to file for income tax purposes.

Do not take this personal, but you clearly do not have a grasp on the financial aspects regarding YMMSS and the reported payments from the CPA. The statements you are making have been made numerous times by Alan and other various high-level YMMMSS promoters. Repeating the same thing over and over, while a good technique for politicians, does not make it true.

YMMSS has NOT paid out $93 million in cash to its members. END OF STORY. Salsa, Surfer, and others have provided excellant examples of how the system is working. AvidA and DrZod are real life examples of how the systems misrepresents that actual amounts paid out.

Dreamer

August 10th, 2005, 06:05 PM

Ok, i'm slowly catching up here. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable can help me.

Lets say I spend $10. Kim takes 22%
Cycle to $20. $20 paid out, $20 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.
Cycle to $40. $40 paid out, $40 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.
Cycle to $80. $80 paid out, $80 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.
Cycle to $160. $160 paid out, $160 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.
Cycle to $320. $320 paid out, $320 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.
Cycle to $640. $640 paid out, $320 withdrawn, $320 repurchase, Kim takes 22%.

So, after 6 cycles (yeah, I know this is mentioned over and over again.
$10+$20+$40+$80+160+320+640 = $1270, Kim takes $280.

A reaccuring $320 shows as $1270 has been paid out, whereas the truth is $320 is paid out and $320 stays in the system, and $280 goes in kims pocket.

Nothing new, right? But, isnt the claim via website only available at the $320 level? Damn, there went my whole argument now that I found out I guess once your $10 becomes $20 you can claim that.

But, who would? Isnt $320 the magic number? After all, I cant have a reaccuring income of $10 a cycle. Why not? So, when I buy the $10 isnt it a given that I'm wiating for it to get up to $320 before I figure out what I want to do with it?

So, frankly, since there isnt that many options available from $10-$160, under the current system, it is misleading to claim that money was paid out, since 99.99% of the members probably are waiting for it to turn into $320, and kim should not dip his greasy fingers into those amounts.

The truth of the matter is this. how many positions that cycle from $10-$20 are claimed via website? How many from $20-$40, etc? What is the point of pretending like claim via website is an option at such low levels when nobody can do it?

Ok...none of that is important. People mentioned about math. Well, we still have our math, but people dont wanna listen to it. It doesnt change, and it wont change even though there is a new system. The only difference between the new system is that it becomes a profit sharing system instead of a true ponzi.

If you want math for the new system, here you go.

Last week had a payout of $325,000 (rounding numbers). Out of that $35,000 came from a pretend outside source that nobody knows about. That leaves $290,000 + $35,000 for the week.

Esto (I think) had said before that only about 35% of the money cycled are taken out of the system, and 65% are kept in it. So, out of $290,000, only $100,000 will be taken out, and the $190,000 will be put back in the system. However, since there is no repurchase, off that $325,000, the memberbase loses about $190,000 simply because they will not cycle. That leaves lasts weeks money going into the system about $135,000 from new purchases, and the rest from repurchases.

Kim has said that there is about 170,000 positions. So, there there will only be $135,000 from new purchases, each position will earn $.80. Now, if your making $.80 a position, are you going to be throwing more money into it?

Mat_Watcher

August 18th, 2005, 08:01 PM

Hi Arzel,

I like Your efforts.

Do You live in the "perfect" country?
I think,I know that people around the world always will looks for a way to pay less taxes as possible.
And lot of "experts" builded their fortune with this work.
This happen everysecond in everywhere from everybody in everybiz.

Taxes that goes to the biggest legalized ponzi scheme of the "state".

And do not tell me it need to take care of citizens.

Not until a politician can earn in a month,with all taxes facility, what i need to work for years or feed hundreds of hungry people for months.

Members decided do not receive the commissions due at any level ($20 to $640) not claiming it to avoid taxes expenses as many, if not all ,people do on their biz.

This as nothing to do with YMMSS payouts,but with human nature.
The example of real life You talked about are good for this too.Or not?

YMMSS paid out over $93,000,000 from Jan 2004.
Repeating over and over that this not happened to not make it true too.Or not?

If all the commissions payments were sent to processors and people keep to repurchase as happened,we do not need to debate it now.

Many thanks

Salsa

August 18th, 2005, 09:37 PM

Here's another example for you Mat_Watcher. For the sake of this example, let's imagine that administration is more generous and takes no percentage, and that all members are really focused on the long term and have their positions set to repurchase. Now, someone buys a couple of 32 EPCs, putting $640 in the CPA. What happens?

The first position due to cycle is "paid" its commission, and since that position is set to repurchase, the cash used to repurchase is returned to the CPA. That cash is then used to process the next position, which is also set to repurchase, and so forth. After a few minutes of processing, depending on the speed of the processing platform, a few billion dollars of commissions have been "paid"--all from that $640. There is still $640 in the CPA, however, so the processing continues on and on and on, "paying" out an infinite amount in commissions--all from just $640 in the CPA.

By the end of the day, each of 25,000 members may have been "paid" a few billion trillion dollars in commissions. But it's all virtual money. In reality, nobody got anything--and they never will. Do you now see how insane the system is, and how divorced from reality the claimed amount of commissions paid is?

(Of course, if administration did take a percentage of each repurchase before returning the remainder to the CPA, not nearly so much would be "paid" out to members, but administration would get all of the real cash! That's the beauty of the system to admin--and only admin.)

Salsa
________

Mat_Watcher

August 19th, 2005, 01:16 PM

Here's another example for you Mat_Watcher. For the sake of this example, let's imagine......

You said all....imagine an example.
I'm not here to imagine.
You imagined Your own system that nothing has to share with what we were talking about.
We have been debating about real things happened.

Many thanks

Salsa

August 19th, 2005, 02:02 PM

You said all....imagine an example.
I'm not here to imagine.
You imagined Your own system that nothing has to share with what we were talking about.
We have been debating about real things happened.

Many thanksMat_Watcher, it has everything to do with how the real system is designed to give the impression of paying more in commissions than it actually does--and of how the system is designed to let administration take the lion's share of the cash while seducing the membership into imagining that it has made money when it hasn't.

In the original example, my "imagining" that admin did not take it's 25% fee was only to show the absurd nature of the system with regard to the commissions that it can claim were paid while really paying nothing. Add the admin fee back in, as in reality, and the only thing that changes is that members get less virtual money, still no real money, and admin takes all the real money that much sooner.

To complete the transition to reality: The first person to CVW or RI will share the cash with admin and everyone else will be left with nothing--just as most YMMSS affiliates have nothing but red ink to show for their involvement in YMMSS--in reality.

Salsa
________

AvidA

August 19th, 2005, 10:03 PM

Let's keep it simple for Mat_Watcher. If $93,000.000 was paid out since January of 2004, and Kim kept 22% of it then he made $20,460,000.00. That would leave 72million 540 thousand dollars to distribute to the 25000 members. Come on! We'd all be millionaires or at least thousandaires because we're talking two years only here for a small handful of people. But instead, the system stalled for LACK OF MONEY. So most of the 25000 sit and wait for the next big wave that is based on "I don't knows" and I think that's how it will be" and "I am not sure", etc. And that[B] is not imaginary.
What's in your head, Zombie????????????????????

Mat_Watcher

August 20th, 2005, 05:45 AM

What's in your head, Zombie????????????????????

Pucker up and keep kissing ***!

Mat_Watcher, what country do you live in?

I'm glad to understand I'm beetween quite and educated people here.

I'm glad to see what the freedom of speach means here.

Congratulations,You're on the right track.

Now I can speach as You?

Sorry,I can't.

Sorry drozd and avida,if You didn't setted Your position to recurring and not recovered Your money,IT WAS YOUR decision.
The money was there and waiting what You decided to do with it.

For any example You place based on if and imagine I can reply with other examples on how the money in the life follow the same path of Your scenarios and raise the balance of the "states" or company without being "paid".

As,some of You already said,repeating it to infinity do not make it true.

Many thanks

surfer

August 20th, 2005, 11:09 AM

YMMSS paid out over $93,000,000 from Jan 2004.
Repeating over and over that this not happened to not make it true too.Or not?
As luck would have it, there is a real life example
of the absurdity of YMMSS claimed commissions
"paid" going on right now in the YMForums.

In a thread titled Now I'm just sick to my stomach,
YMMMSS affiliate retainer thought she did everything
correct to claim via website 3 mature positions, which
would have given her $1920 minus fees in real cash.

Through either her own error or perhaps yet another
"technical glitch" lol in YMMSS, she ended up simply
repurchasing 6 $320 positions.

Maybe Mat_Watcher would like to explain to retainer's
husband how they have really just been paid $1900. :head:

She noticed the mistake immediately, filed help tickets
immediately, and was told that there was nothing that
could be done. :nono:

Now her only hope of actually getting paid is to beg Kim
Inman for her money. She shouldn't have to grovel to
the owner to get what is rightfully hers.

If this so called "legitimate" business wasn't hiding out
in Belize, there would be a mandatory 3 day "buyer's
remorse" policy to get her money back for an unused
and unwanted "product".

EPCs are not like other digital products that can be
copied and still used after asking for a refund. It's
easy enough to see that she didn't use them and
did not intend to "repurchase".

Good luck in convincing retainer and her husband
that they just made over $1900 Mat_Watcher.

surfer

August 20th, 2005, 11:23 AM

I still think Mat_Watcher, esto, Mike Hamilton,
Jim Hakim, Alan, and other YMMSS faithful
should ask any of the potential retailers what
they think it means when YMMSS claims to
have "paid" over $90 million in commissions.

I also still believe it to be fraudulent to claim
you've "paid" this amount of money, but don't
issue 1099's to U.S. citizens that match such
claims.

brenda

August 20th, 2005, 12:19 PM

the money that they "pay" you to repurchase the 20's, 40's, 80's, 160's, and $320's are not issued 1099s on. They only say they "pay" you. It is a way of avoiding taxes if you have your epcs set on "repurchase until notified". They repurchase indefinitely and you don't have to pay taxes. The only money that you have to pay taxes on is the money that actually LEAVES the system and crosses the border into your stormpay or intgold or wherever you have it sent to. That is the "recurring income". Even if you have the 10s 20s 40s 80s and 160s set on "recurring income" and they "pay" you everytime one of them doubles, you dont actually have to pay taxes on it either until you get the $320 from your $320 doubling. By the way, they say that there has to be actual REAL money for the epcs to double, but in the new payment plan which will be here soon, we hope, there doesnt have to be real money for the epcs to double. it is just on the computer screen, not real money. the only real money will be the weekly money. so when the epcs double in the new system without real money, i dont know if they will consider that paying or just doubling. maybe the only thing they will consider as real money being "paid" is the weekly income, which is what the 1099s will be issued on. But the odd thing about all this is, even though they do not issue 1099s on the 10, 20, 40 80 and 160 doubling under repurchase, we can still claim them as business "expense" for tax purposes. it is called paying for advertising. it is all very confusing. it seems like a 10 going to 20 should be considered an income of $10, if the $10 can be turned around and be called a biz "expense". this has been discussed adnaseum at ym also. we cant seem to get it through our heads. (many of us) :) but they dont like things discussed at length, it is called ........ (cant remember what they call it, but after they have explained and explained...... it goes away for a while until somebody else starts trying to figure it out) but it wont matter soon, because then there will be the "new" payment plan.

I still think Mat_Watcher, esto, Mike Hamilton,
Jim Hakim, Alan, and other YMMSS faithful
should ask any of the potential retailers what
they think it means when YMMSS claims to
have "paid" over $90 million in commissions.

I also still believe it to be fraudulent to claim
you've "paid" this amount of money, but don't
issue 1099's to U.S. citizens that match such
claims.

Bocotora

August 20th, 2005, 01:04 PM

Dont think this "hiding" in Belize will help KIm et al.

Check out his link.

www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050815/15belize.htm

Theres even some ponzi scammers in this article.

Enjoy!

lionking

August 20th, 2005, 01:22 PM

Bocotora,

thanks for great reading! Get them!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

brenda,

you look lively!!!

:D :D :D

Bocotora

August 20th, 2005, 01:35 PM

Heres another beauty

www.interlawgroup.com/downloads/interlaw brochure.pdf

Is this the brochure for the company that set up Kim offshore in Belize?

www.ibcbelize.com/agents.shtml

Could this be the mystery lawyer? Note address of YMMSS in Belize from their website.

Cheers!

Bocotora

August 20th, 2005, 01:38 PM

On the ibcbelize.com link

click on registered agents for a list of agents. If you read the brochure you will see the name of one of interlaws principals. Click on his name and you will have YMMSS address in Belize.

Salsa

August 20th, 2005, 06:23 PM

Thanks Bocotora for the links. I'd heard rumors that Belize cooperates well with the US government, and this article is a pretty strong affirmation of that. As you mentioned, there is a reference to Ponzi scammers being hunted down:As Osterhout wraps up his tour of duty in Belize, he will be leaving behind more than a dozen open cases--among them fugitives charged with murder, drug dealing, child pornography, and running a multimillion-dollar Ponzi scheme. Enough to keep his successor busy and to fill an episode of America's Most Wanted--Belize Edition....and it's possible that's THE Ponzi we are talking about here. It's not like agents provide running public reports of their investigations.

And, yes, Stephen Thompson is/was an attorney for YMMSS. In addition to your evidence, esto said so in his Success System -- Collection Two (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:mgFBjpjQ_2gJ:thepeoplespowerline.co m/ymm%24%24/Success%2520System%2520--%2520Collection%2520Two.pdf), which also says that Thompson was admitted to the bar in both Florida and Georgia and is a resident of Belize. It seems that esto has taken down his Success System -- Collection Two notes, so the linked copy is Google's html cache of the original pdf. In case Google clears the cache, I kept a copy if anyone needs it.

Google cached it from thepeoplespowerline.com, which had ymmss, ymm$$ and esto directories. The domain is now expired and the site defunct. The "Success System -- Collection Two" pdf isn't archived on WayBack. But WayBack does have some other interesting stuff on thepeoplespowerline.com (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://thepeoplespowerline.com). For one, it was apparently owned and operated by Viper. (It includes an obvious photo of him and much more). Parse around and search the data that you find there, and you'll come across a whole host of info about Viper and the questionable schemes he was involved in before YMMSS; e.g., ITA-PE archives -- March 2003 (http://listserv.nic.it/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303&L=ita-pe&F=&S=&P=41039).

Back to the YM/Interlaw address, while it seems that several businesses do operate out of 8 Marine Parade, Belize City, searches show that both Interlaw Group and YMMSS have used the exact same 1936 box number. For an example, see this Google-cached YMForums thread from last January, About ymmss address (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:RYF7S8q_QysJ:www.ymforums.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D8366&hl=en).

Thanks again for the links, Bocotora. Also, to make your link to the pdf file work, you need to edit and replace the space in the url with a %20, like this:<br>http://www.interlawgroup.com/downloads/interlaw%20brochure.pdf

Salsa
_______

Arzel

August 21st, 2005, 02:43 AM

That is some very interesting information. I particularly like the old Esto PDF describing in detail the nature of YMMSS and why it will work.

The system was designed with the assumption that at least 2/3 of all money paid into the CPA would be immediately recycled back into the system. At least now there is no longer a discussion to as how the payment system worked. Money that was used to repurchase positions immediatey went back into the system. I think it is safe to say that YMMSS has paid out less than $30 million in actual cash to its members.

Ironically this assumption would contribute to the increasing cycle times as the Ponzi started to slow down. With more and more members choosing to claim via website the amount of money which could be recycled back into the system would decrease dramatically. This is quite apparent by looking at the total commissions paid since the cycle times started to increase, and I suspect that it is one of the primary reasons the weekly pay is now so low. This is addition bad news for current YMMSS member that have delusions of the new system working back to a similar 90 day payment system. Since no longer will a majority of payments be able to instantly purchase positions back into the matrix, there will have to be roughly 3 times as many new purchases than there were at the height of purchases.

The information regarding the Belieze resort and lawyers involved is quite interesting as well, and as you could imagine that original forum post is no longer available on the YM public forums.