YMMSS and STA -- Just In Case Anyone Wants to Know

[esto]

I am a Six Figure earner in YMMSS and a former Administrator of the YMForums. I have read enough here to know that Kim Inman has recently been subjected to what can only be described as vicious and unfounded attacks.

Such attacks would not be permissable in most forums I am aware of. Assuming as I do that they are completely false, they represent a damaging participation of the forum in character assassination.

My purpose in starting this thread is to offer any member of Matrix Watch answers to any questions they may have regarding YM or Succes Through Advertising. If I do not have an answer Iwill do my best to ferret it out. I fully expect that unless Matrix Watch is simply obsessed with trashing YM that I will be able to convince at least a few that we are a new business model that is moving rapidly away from the world of bizopps to becoming a new model for online advertising.

From what I have read I am relatively sure that there may be abusive or derisive responses to what I have written. My ground rule will be to ignore such comments entirely. I will try to answer questions period. If that is not wanted then the thread will die an early death. If I get anything like a fair response I may well invite others in YM to join me here in hopes that we can do something to reverse the generally vitriolic posts that have been allowed thus far.

One final remark. I know there are many YMMSS members who are distressed with the unfair and inaccurate statements that have been posted here. I would plead with them to abide by the groundrules in this note. The last thing I want is to have YM affiliates here sink to the level of dialogue that I have seen.

Cheers, S

[avago181]

Why are you a former administrator?

[esto]

Why are you a former administrator?

I was the first moderator of the original discussion group that is now the 8400 member-strong YMForums. I then became admin of these forums but I believe in layered leadership and passed on the leadership to other mods who are now co-admins. I now work in an advisory and editorial capacity -- voluntarily and not for pay -- within YM and STA. I am well into what people understand to be retirement age and look forward to gradually easing what is presently an almost full time involvement with YM. My current focus is on interpreting the move we are making to weekly payments, fixed 90 day advances of positions from $10 to $320 and the inauguration of our retail ad business. Best, S

[Arzel]

I am a Six Figure earner in YMMSS and a former Administrator of the YMForums. I have read enough here to know that Kim Inman has recently been subjected to what can only be described as vicious and unfounded attacks.

Such attacks would not be permissable in most forums I am aware of. Assuming as I do that they are completely false, they represent a damaging participation of the forum in character assassination.

My purpose in starting this thread is to offer any member of Matrix Watch answers to any questions they may have regarding YM or Succes Through Advertising. If I do not have an answer Iwill do my best to ferret it out. I fully expect that unless Matrix Watch is simply obsessed with trashing YM that I will be able to convince at least a few that we are a new business model that is moving rapidly away from the world of bizopps to becoming a new model for online advertising.

From what I have read I am relatively sure that there may be abusive or derisive responses to what I have written. My ground rule will be to ignore such comments entirely. I will try to answer questions period. If that is not wanted then the thread will die an early death. If I get anything like a fair response I may well invite others in YM to join me here in hopes that we can do something to reverse the generally vitriolic posts that have been allowed thus far.

One final remark. I know there are many YMMSS members who are distressed with the unfair and inaccurate statements that have been posted here. I would plead with them to abide by the groundrules in this note. The last thing I want is to have YM affiliates here sink to the level of dialogue that I have seen.

Cheers, S

Welcome Esto,

I must say I am a little surprised to see such a high level YMMSS member participate on these forums, but do welcome your presence.

Perhaps a little history will help you understand our purpose here at Matrix Watch. We did not choose to “attack” YMMSS just to try and trash the business and destroy it, as many YMMSS members believe. We have a long history of exposing Matrix/Ponzi based business models, and the underlying mathematical models that dictate that they must fail. That YMMSS is a Matrix is not in question, as it has been stated numerous times within the framework of YMMSS itself. For that reason alone it has become a topic of discussion on this forum. The shear size of YMMSS only intensified the focus.

I have read your reasoning for stating that YMMSS is not a Ponzi scheme, and must say I find a great deal of fault in your explanation. For this reason I personally have intensified my opinions as to why YMMSS is a Ponzi and that the nature of such dictates that it will, and in fact is failing.

I realize that YMMSS is undergoing a transformation of sorts to a somewhat modified system and that part of the stated reason for the transformation is to move away from the perceived notion of being a doubler. However, it is my opinion that this transformation is quite transparent to the underlying model that is not really changing significantly.

It cannot be debated that a substantial number of YMMSS members have invested quite heavily into EPC purchases with the primary purpose of generating a recurring self-sustaining income of $100,000+ per year. The fact that YMMSS states that YMMSS is not an investment program, but an advertisement company is not missed by me, but it does not change the fact that the primary reason for EPC purchases is for positions within the stated matrix model of YMMSS. This, by definition, is not legal and substantial research by myself and others over the past 3 years have precedence regarding the purchase of a “token” item for entry into an investment like operation.

Up to this point YMMSS has had no compelling argument to the contrary of this statement. Whether or not the new model does skirt the law regarding this fact is yet to be seen, but preliminary analysis would lead me to believe that YMMSS still runs afoul of the same Matrix/Ponzi problems of the current model.

On a separate note, Kim has made numerous statements and claims over the preceding months and years regarding cycle times, which have not come to pass. Yet these statements were a primary reason for a large, if not majority, of current members to be a part of the program.

Mine is a position of informant to the denizens of YMMSS members that feel that have not been told the entire truth regarding the matrix model and how it cannot be infinitely sustainable, and until YMMSS can provide a compelling reason to show that they can I will not be dissuaded, but I do welcome your discussion.

~Arzel

[Dreamer]

I personally would like you to respond to my responce to your claim that ymmss is not a ponzi. Anytime I responded at ymmss you, or soembody else, was happy to delete it. Would you care to respond here?

http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2902&highlight=estos

[wolverine]

Well they do get quite violent the ymmss people .......when u disagree with them.....especially the moderators.....where they constantly eject anybody who do not agree with thier cult like belief in Ymmss........not all moderators .but some are more zealous than others.....like Jim Jones said in Jonestown......drink the coolaid......you wont feel a thing later...... :) just dont talk against Kim Inman and feel the wrath of the moderators(he is so sincere..he talks from the heart .. give me a break)...... :bow:

There program has far toooooo many variables for any body to be sure it will work........and for sure one thing......if they get an extreme amt of money coming from outside sources (let say 100 million) it may work and they will need that an influx of cash on a steady basis......but who knows if it will really happen for sure...........not even Mr. Inman knows the answer to that.....and has missed on most of his latest predictions

everyone now has a spread sheet and are busy counting their chickens bef0re they hatch.......dangerous pastime.....they cant sleep at night counting all the money they will make.....but of course if they are expecting a huge outside infusion of cash............. then why not just stay with the old system and just put a cap on the amt a $320 purchase could make.......they do not have to program new scripts for anew program (Ymmss is legendary in taking forever to get a script programmed..Kim puts his daughters in charge and they do not have much experience)

problem is Lately YMMSS HAS delivered on little that they said they would.....$65,000 per week coming in... was actually "just a slip of the tongue" and magically turned into $35,000 per week........ $300,000.00 that was suppose to double every 3 weeks ........$300,000 = $600,000= $1,200,000.00 = $2,400,000.00 = $4,800,000.00 .......magically turned into $300,000.00 per month....... :nono:

So what will happen to the 19,000,000.00 per week promised.......yes u heard me right $19,000,000.00 per week....... $988,000,000 per year......that is a billion ..........yes a billion dollars a year.......WOW :head: .........will it turn into maybe ..........let me guess $190,000 per year.......we should start a pool ........and see who guesses the right ammt lol

Kim Inman in his new version of the pay plan; has decided to play robin hood and take from the rich and give to the poor in this new version ....... but you see that this new pay plan will only work if he has an extreme ammt of money....BUT come to think of it ...............the old pay plan would have worked to if he would have had an extreme amt of money.......so why change it??? :confused:

The reason why he changed it.......there was a internet revolution boiling ready to erupt...he had to do something to quell the rebellion .........give people hope (even if it is pie in the sky) or else he wouild lose all his members and then his retail site would have been lost......(this is another story....maybe later) now he has about 2 years before all the $10.00 positions explode into $320.00 positions and create the legendary Nov. 18 effect all over again ..........but worse this time ...So he is buying time with this new plan.......someone understands human nature very well in his organization

Ymmss is an accident looking for a place to happen right now........i havent even scratched the surface on all the problems Mr Inman faces......
i sincerely hope he does overcome all odds stacked against him......because soooooo many have invested their retirement funds ........there life savings......maxed out 2 - 3 visas ......losing their homes ......children go without medical care......with no way to pay it back right now.........unless they wait for a 2 - 3 years with the present state of things

only believe they say........kim will save the day......i hope something good happens and people are not caught holding the Proverbial bag :shake:

[Dreamer]

And while I'm willing to follow any rules that esto asks to keep him on board here, I do in return ask one rule. I dont wanna hear anything about faith, about any religion, about any deity, about any religious story or parable, or anything of the sort. I'm going to say thing right now...I am a Christian and it pisses me off to hear how people are dragging faith thru the mud to support an illegial activitity (from my point of view its illegial, which of course doesnt make it illegial, but well).

Thats all i'm asking for. I hope all sides will be willing to play nice and honor my request.

[Otherguy]

Welcome Esto, I am delighted that you are here to answer our questions.

On the subject on whether or not Kim is a crook, I have no idea and I think there is some weight in your belief that he has not been given an entirely fair go in some of the threads in Matrixwatch. On balance I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until I see any hard evidence that he is a crook.

In my view, the future of YMMSS boils down to one thing - Kims ability to generate the many millions in outside revenue necessary to sustain YMMSS. I am very sceptical as to his ability to do so, but consider myself open-minded and would love to hear your reasons why you believe so strongly that he will. Here are my questions concerning Kims ability to generate the money.

1. Has Kim had any experience in generating this sort of money from outside revenue sources?

2. To achieve the type of income needed from the starting capital he has will be a very rare and difficult business feat - why will he succeed where many others with more business experience and as much integrity have failed?

3. Is there anything more concrete you can tell us about Kims plans to get the outside revenue? I understand he has quoted a lot of figures, but given no info as to exactly how the money will be generated.

4. YMGOLF, YMAUCTIONS etc. To me they look amateurish and likely to raise only a very little money. I think they will do more harm in turning away potential YMMSS members than the money they will bring in is worth. What is your opinion of these sites and what they say of Kims business acumen?


The majority of YMMSS members seem to me to be a fantastic bunch of people - positive, committed, welcoming and intelligent. It just perplexes me that they invest so much of their money and belief in a money generating system that seems so flawed. If it's simply a matter of belief in one individual then thats your decision and I respect your choice, but if you can enlighten me with more concrete reasoning I'd love to hear it.

[Deso]

Well, even though Ive seen enough to stop me from joining, (Mostly Alans posts but Live & Let live etc.) I must admit I am intrigued as to why Esto has made his presence known on these boards.
I welcome his posts and look forward to what i hope will be a cracking debate on YMMSS.
But a thought struck me.. We've seen Alan (in various guises), now Esto.. How long before Viper or even the man himself Kim make an appearance? or would that be too much to ask?
One question for you Esto, does Kim read this forum to your knowledge? and If so, would he care to defend his business model here?
He could put all the hearsay and assumptions to bed straight away, and what better advertisement for his business, than to prove his knockers wrong on their own forum. That is, unless he cannot do so.
I look forward to your reply.
Thanks in advance.
Deso
Edinburgh , Scotland

[esto]

1. Has Kim read Here?

Yes. When one of your number posted what I regard as completely false and damaging accusations about Kim personally, I alerted him and I am aware that he has at least been here once. I also sent him the url of this thread.

2. Ponzi. I think the definition of this term is massivly wide, extending even to the US Social Security system! YM does have a legal staff and it has advised us on all aspects of our program. For example, most recently, we were told that the three percent we presently give as a commission on the purchases of sponsorees creates problems in several jurisdictions. The intent is to remove this commission in the future. One could argue that our lawyer is not going to bite the hand that feeds him or her, but that would not be a very good way of earning one's keep. If there was any aspect of YM that could be argued to be an illegal Ponzi, I am reasonably sure we would know it by now.

Having said that, I am not sure it makes sense to reiterate all the arguments I have posted previously. Let me confine myself to two issues:

-- A Ponzi's product is ephemeral and ultimately may not even exist in any tangible way. It is an excuse to get investment. I think this is superficially what one might argue regarding YM. Even though there can be no argument that YM has sold advertising and that members have used it and profited by using it, the very shape of things would enable someone to argue that a purchase of say $10K in EPCs was an investment pure and simple. And that the EPCs were ephemeral. My response to that is that if there is truth in that characterization, we are moving rapidly to make that inference false. I do not have all of the details, but in essence the price of EPCs is going up as we move to implement our full business model -- with the retail ad site at its forefront. I am not sure whether the term EPCs (Electronic Posting Credits) will survive. A more accurate term is Discounted Advertising or Wholesale Advertising. Whatever the term, I believe that once one has a $320 position (either buying it outright or cycling to it via fixed 90 day cycles) one will have that much in Discounted Advertising to "spend" one time only and that if one wants to use this discounted product one would have to buy further positions. This means that the number of actual ad credits will be equal -- I think -- to the total number of $320 positions in the evolved system. The most compelling argument that we do not have a true product will diminish considerably, if not disappear, when we have retail advertisers paying many times $320 to advertise on our public ad site/s.

-- Another common characteristic of a Ponzi is that the originator of the system has only one motive -- to get rich himself and eventually arrange for a collapse that leaves him high and dry and all members soaked. Here we come to what I see as a common theme running through many of the critical posts here. Kim is a crook! Let me preface my response by saying that I have no love for adulation of any human being. I think it is unseemly. Even idolatrous. And Kim has certainly been the subject of adulation. I like Kim. I respect him. I know him fairly well. We just travelled to UK together and I spend enough time to know him as a forthcoming and instinctively helpful person. I also think he is highly intelligent and sincere and funny and very much at home in the world of ordinary folk where he is fluent and at ease. Do I believe him when he emphasizes values such as helping? Yes. Even to the point of a fault. I have had Kim call me and take serious time trying to talk me through a resizing glitch. Kim receives approximately 22 percent of all the income that comes into YM from wholesale ad purchases. This is divided between funds for investment to create added income streams (currently we receive somewhat over $400K monthly into our CPA.) and admin funds which pay not only salaries and other expenses but material expenses such as the equipment we need to exist as an online business. The precise and even methodical growth of YM is to me proof positive that Kim is not engaged in any respect in an effort to gain funds for his own selfish ends at the expense of the membership. And he is most definitely not planning for a collapse that will line his pockets and leave us all broke.

Our business plan is not that of a Ponzi. The plan is to have three basic income rivers, all three of which are now moving into an evolved form.
Retail Ads -- with our membership serving as a demographic willing to supply vital demographic info to potential ads and to use forthcoming weekly pay as an earnest of their intent to patronize advertisers; Investment Income Streams -- under the direction of our CFO, slowly building with a model that protects principle and enables exit in the event investments do not perform;
and wholesale ads with many if not all members promoting a public ad site and patronizing the advertisers.

Increasingly we are proactivating our membership. The first indication was the Ad Survey which is essentially required. Around 18K have taken it and we may indeed face a fall-off from more than 25K members to closer to 20K. Whatever, the membership is moving toward more participation. We are building our YMForums membership daily and it is now around 8,400. Our model involves turning a portion of our membership into a trained corps of advertising agents who can earn up to 15 percent in commissions.

If anything we are moving away from web-ops to a model that essentially places our affiliates in the position stockholders are in most businesses. Only better. Affiliates get close to 80 percent of the profits back. The profits will be maximized as retail ad revenue begins and as income streams increase. It is in my view a winning business model.

Does the retention of a cycle model make this a matrix? I am honestly not sure. However we describe it, the evolved system will enable an affiliate to achieve a $320 position with a $10 purchase after the passage of that $10 through fixed 90 day cycles. No longer is this anything like the current "in at the bottom out at the top". Each person will have their own account. It is much more like a compounding mechanism.

More later. I know there are other questions I have not yet addressed. If I do not do so in a timely way, please be good enough to reiterate them.

Cheers, S

[esto]

Well, even though Ive seen enough to stop me from joining, (Mostly Alans posts but Live & Let live etc.) I must admit I am intrigued as to why Esto has made his presence known on these boards.
I welcome his posts and look forward to what i hope will be a cracking debate on YMMSS.
But a thought struck me.. We've seen Alan (in various guises), now Esto.. How long before Viper or even the man himself Kim make an appearance? or would that be too much to ask?
One question for you Esto, does Kim read this forum to your knowledge? and If so, would he care to defend his business model here?
He could put all the hearsay and assumptions to bed straight away, and what better advertisement for his business, than to prove his knockers wrong on their own forum. That is, unless he cannot do so.
I look forward to your reply.
Thanks in advance.
Deso
Edinburgh , Scotland

Hi Deso.

I think others may join this thread. Viper works full time and is admin of our forums and I would not want to see him vitiate his already stretched time commitments. We have many highly articulate members who understand our system. Some may appear perhaps. Cheers, S

[drzod]

Esto, I joined YMMSS in Jan 04. Between Jan 04 and Jun 05, I turned my initial investment of $370 into commissions worth $5920. That is a 1600% return on my investment in just 17 months. During that time I had to weed through numerous happy birthday, YMMSS is great, keep buying more EPC's, and Kim and Sue are the best ads. I would say only about 5% of the ads that I read were actual ads. Most of these ads were false "business opportunities" simply pointing me to other sites. Some links worked, and others did not. I researched several of the opportunities, and did not think they made a good investment. As a result, I followed the rules of reading ads, but never purchased anything advertised on YMMSS. I have also spoken to several other members in my city that have done the same thing - made an original investment, read the ads, but purchased nothing.

Most of the people I have corresponded with have set their commissions to repurchase. This worked great in 2004, but none of us has cycled in 2005.

In addition, these members are uncomfortable with the changing commission structure at YMMSS. However, with the rising cycle times, they feel stuck in their current positions. No one is buying more EPC's, and now only hope simply to get their money back. As a result, members obey the rules and read ads, but have decided to buy nothing and invest nothing else until they at least break even.

I know that my sample is not statistically significant in regards to the total membership of YMMSS, but this situation should concern you. How do you fix this situation? If cycle times decrease, they will bail out and claim commissions via the website. If cycle times continue to rise, they will continue their strategy of wait until I break even. With no additional funds from these members coming into YMMSS, it begins to affect other members and has a snowballing effect. Simply telling these members that YMMSS is heading in the right direction and that external income streams are coming does not work, so what do you do?

[lionking]

Speeking of highly articulate members who understand our system...

I AM HERE!!!

:D :D :D

I remember it was about 6 months ago... One guy fom Belgium was challenging
the system and you were the one, who answered his questions.
Thread was deleted very soon, AS ALWAYS...

I remember his question:

"CAN YOU GUARANTEE ME THAT I WILL CYCLE?"

Your respond was close to:

"YES, BUT NOT AS FAST AS YOU WISH!"

So, I want to cycle, CVW is this wrong? This is ALL I want...

Why not to give people possibility to cycle, do
FORSED CYCLING?

Ohhh...probably the is no MONEY in the system left...

:nono: :nono: :nono:

[Otherguy]

Our business plan is not that of a Ponzi. The plan is to have three basic income rivers, all three of which are now moving into an evolved form.
Retail Ads -- with our membership serving as a demographic willing to supply vital demographic info to potential ads and to use forthcoming weekly pay as an earnest of their intent to patronize advertisers; Investment Income Streams -- under the direction of our CFO, slowly building with a model that protects principle and enables exit in the event investments do not perform;
and wholesale ads with many if not all members promoting a public ad site and patronizing the advertisers.



More later. I know there are other questions I have not yet addressed. If I do not do so in a timely way, please be good enough to reiterate them.

Cheers, S

Thanks for your detailed post Esto. I understand about the three income rivers. To add a little to my earlier questions I'd like to say that of the 3 rivers, the retail and wholesale ads can only account for a small fraction of the money needed - the amount spent on advertising can only account for a small fraction of the income of those to whom the goods are advertised.

So that leaves the investment income streams as the majority source of income needed to support YMMSS. Please refer to my earlier questions as to where this money is coming from.

Again I'd like to reiterate I am sceptical yet open minded. A little will go a long way. Some hard numbers will go a VERY long way.

[esto]

Drzod wrote:

Simply telling these members that YMMSS is heading in the right direction and that external income streams are coming does not work, so what do you do?

END QUOTE

I agree that telling does not make it so, so what I do is this:

Work my posterior off to bring things into reality. I think Kim does the same and that Mark and Dave and the others on the YM admin side do the same. I know our mods do the same and that members also do -- as evidenced by such things as the creation of some substantial gatherings over the past months -- most recently in Birmingham, UK.

We are NOT there now. Now we are caught in the reason why we have had to change.

But we have reason to trust that:

Weekly pay is coming based on weekly receipts less 22 percent to Admin.

Weighting within the initial weeks' payments will be according to the order you are within the current matrix. I for example had substantial positions that should have cycled at the start of this year. I will get more than 25 credits per position initially.

What will this look like when it starts? I imagine it will look shaky. Let's say the first week's income is net $900,000 and the weighted get a bigger share. That might mean less for more ordinary positions. Still and all this will be the start of the new and evolved model and I will not prejudge it.

There is a wierd but interesting element in all this.

In some respects it really makes little difference how we do in terms of getting new members, because those who are believing in the coming system should do just fine. I think there is little question that we will reap benefits on both the retail ad and income streams front, though saying does not make it so.

I think we will sort into participants who work hard and share the many ways to make an income (I mean by selling ads and even developing partner businesses that are YM branded) and those for whom this is not one's cup of tea.

What would I do if I was an angry member with some continued stake, for whom all of the above is pure claptrap? I'm not sure. But I know this. Money will be forthcoming sooner now. Not soon enough to satisfy those for whom no explanation of WHY we ended up as we are suffices, but a darned sight sooner than it would had we not decreed new databases and an evolved system.

Incidentally, the new system was basically built -- maybe half of it -- on input from an affiliate who happens to also be an economist. I am talking about the weekly payment share the income part.

Bottom line. What you say is: If it doesn't seem like a viable prop to you, there is nothing I CAN say.

Cheers, S

[esto]

Thanks for your detailed post Esto. I understand about the three income rivers. To add a little to my earlier questions I'd like to say that of the 3 rivers, the retail and wholesale ads can only account for a small fraction of the money needed - the amount spent on advertising can only account for a small fraction of the income of those to whom the goods are advertised.

So that leaves the investment income streams as the majority source of income needed to support YMMSS. Please refer to my earlier questions as to where this money is coming from.

Again I'd like to reiterate I am sceptical yet open minded. A little will go a long way. Some hard numbers will go a VERY long way.

Hi Otherguy --

Did not mean to slight your earlier question.

I strongly disagree that affiliate purchases and retail ad purchases are only a small fraction of the money needed. This is a debate within YM -- which river will be biggest? I think when the weekly payment is churning along people will join with substantial levels of involvement. They will agree to read the retail ads and they will patronize the advertisers. I do not think Mike Hamilton left a Fortune 20 compay to join YM on the basis that his work would bring in a small fractionof what was needed. He has just put out notices to hire something like 11 people as a global infrastructure for help and training to members who want to sell ads.

Hard numbers: The only hard numbers at the moment are 35k a week and 300k a month. I am talking existing income streams. I do not even include the widely referenced millions due in '06. Here is what I think in terms of hard numbers. That around 11 percent of total income has been allocated to create these streams. How much is that? I would guess around 10 million. My guess is that this can be leveraged in various ways. I know that whenever we enter an agreement our funds are held within a secure trust which enables exit. Brick by brick I expect the numbers to increase. Even the current income is not a bad return on $10 million. The only hard numbers are existing income. It is that simple.

I did not go to your earlier questions so if this is not OK please either report them or I will take time to go back and ferret them out. Cheers, S

[esto]

Hi Otherguy --

I am just getting the hang of things here. I had to go back a page to find your questions. I will paste them below and my answers will be preceded by >>>>
It is the old asc2 nut in me coming out.

QUOTE:

1. Has Kim had any experience in generating this sort of money from outside revenue sources?

>>>> He is getting it. I do not think Kim had anything like the funds that would have made this effort feasable. He hired Mark Boike to be our CFO because he knew he needed a more experienced hand. I do know doing this was part of his business plan.

2. To achieve the type of income needed from the starting capital he has will be a very rare and difficult business feat - why will he succeed where many others with more business experience and as much integrity have failed?

>>>> I don't have an answer other than an awareness that there are opportunities all over the world which make having capital to place at the disposal of others can become very lucrative. I suspect it remains a hit or miss proposition and that at the end of the day we will succeed because of a conservative approach that protects principal and proceeds with minute attention to due diligence.

3. Is there anything more concrete you can tell us about Kims plans to get the outside revenue? I understand he has quoted a lot of figures, but given no info as to exactly how the money will be generated.

>>>> Kim has had to learn to curb his enthusiasm. I do not think he has quoted figures for any reason other than to share in a transparent way with affiliates. However, this has had to stop or radically diminish. The only figures I hear now are the $300K a month and $25K weekly that I have referred to in a previous note. I also hear the 16-19 million figure for the summer of '06 mentioned. This is an in the works thing in which it is possible to observe progress.I believe when Kim says it is on track and that it will happen he is speaking of observations of increased capital increase. That is all I know.

4. YMGOLF, YMAUCTIONS etc. To me they look amateurish and likely to raise only a very little money. I think they will do more harm in turning away potential YMMSS members than the money they will bring in is worth. What is your opinion of these sites and what they say of Kims business acumen?

>>>> When they came out prior to the evolution of the system itself I thought they, and the Linkshare links and various other YM branded things, were somewhat as you describe them. Conceptually, however. I think they can become huge. They can get more professional as we are able to afford professional management at that level. The limits on the creation of such sites are bounded only by imagination. For example I have always thought there was a huge potential business in an archival site which would continue sites after their owners have gone on to their happy hunting ground.

END QUOTE

Now I feel I have answered your questions! Cheers, S

[Arzel]

1. Has Kim read Here?

2. Ponzi. I think the definition of this term is massivly wide, extending even to the US Social Security system! YM does have a legal staff and it has advised us on all aspects of our program. For example, most recently, we were told that the three percent we presently give as a commission on the purchases of sponsorees creates problems in several jurisdictions. The intent is to remove this commission in the future. One could argue that our lawyer is not going to bite the hand that feeds him or her, but that would not be a very good way of earning one's keep. If there was any aspect of YM that could be argued to be an illegal Ponzi, I am reasonably sure we would know it by now.

Having said that, I am not sure it makes sense to reiterate all the arguments I have posted previously. Let me confine myself to two issues:

-- A Ponzi's product is ephemeral and ultimately may not even exist in any tangible way. It is an excuse to get investment. I think this is superficially what one might argue regarding YM. Even though there can be no argument that YM has sold advertising and that members have used it and profited by using it, the very shape of things would enable someone to argue that a purchase of say $10K in EPCs was an investment pure and simple. And that the EPCs were ephemeral. My response to that is that if there is truth in that characterization, we are moving rapidly to make that inference false. I do not have all of the details, but in essence the price of EPCs is going up as we move to implement our full business model -- with the retail ad site at its forefront. I am not sure whether the term EPCs (Electronic Posting Credits) will survive. A more accurate term is Discounted Advertising or Wholesale Advertising. Whatever the term, I believe that once one has a $320 position (either buying it outright or cycling to it via fixed 90 day cycles) one will have that much in Discounted Advertising to "spend" one time only and that if one wants to use this discounted product one would have to buy further positions. This means that the number of actual ad credits will be equal -- I think -- to the total number of $320 positions in the evolved system. The most compelling argument that we do not have a true product will diminish considerably, if not disappear, when we have retail advertisers paying many times $320 to advertise on our public ad site/s.


So is this an admission that the current/previous model of YMMSS was treated as a Ponzi?

If not, then how do you explain that many members did treat YMMSS as an investment vehicle, with many members hoping to retire purely based off the number of positions they had within the matrix?



-- Another common characteristic of a Ponzi is that the originator of the system has only one motive -- to get rich himself and eventually arrange for a collapse that leaves him high and dry and all members soaked. Here we come to what I see as a common theme running through many of the critical posts here.


This argument has been made a number of times by you and others on the YM Forums. Responses to this arguement have been deleted without cause on the YM Forums, however they will not be deleted here.

The truth of the matter is that Charles Ponzi, was much like Kim appears to be. He could have fled with millions, but did not. And in fact put himself into banktrupcy trying to save his failed scheme. Many experts are at a loss as to why he did not flee, but the fact remains he did not. So your assertation of what a Ponzi is, is not correct, at least not in the sense that it can be applied equally in all situations.

[esto]

Hi Arzel,

You Write:

So is this an admission that the current/previous model of YMMSS was treated as a Ponzi?

If not, then how do you explain that many members did treat YMMSS as an investment vehicle, with many members hoping to retire purely based off the number of positions they had within the matrix?

RESPONSE

If people treated it this way I would say it was a mixed bag in the sense that whenever asked YM (Kim and others) stressed the product aspect. Ponzi did not sell advertising. We did and do. Those who do advertising of their businesses using epcs have had generally good results and in some cases far better results than from other forms of online advertising. However I do not think there is any question then now or in the future that people will see STA/YM as an income opportunity and apply criteria to it which may imply it is an investment. It will not be because we are not registered with the SEC, do not sell stock and do not represent ourselves as an investment opportunity. So my explanation would not differ from yours if you believe people were under that impression. It was and remains the wrong impression.

Any successful business including YM could give a participant hope of being able to retire. Legally we're an advertising business. Online advertising is a booming business and a business which pays its members for participation as readers of ads and presumably as customers and even sellers of ads is an entirely legitimate and appealing business idea.

Cheers, S

[Gringo]

The primary reasons that YMMSS is considered a Ponzi are:
1. The product/service is primarily purchased to participate in the money making scheme. It doesn't matter what the product is, in fact it could be something as expensive and substantial as a TV or car, but the key is that what is paid for the product is way out of line of the true value of the product. The difference being the premium to participate in the money making scheme. This is and has clearly been the history of YMMSS. By Kims own admission little if any income has been generated to date from the sale of ads to retail advertisers. Once the YMMSS auction went up the true value of the EPCs were shown to be 1% of their cost. A $10 EPC would sell for 10 cents. Clearly EPCs are puchased at a hugely inflated price, just to participate in the doubling scheme.
2. Participants are paid primarily with income from new funds added to the system. 95% of payments to YMMSS come from other members. 5% or less come from the outside income sources. This makes YMMSS a Ponzi. The reponse that the plan is to have most of the income come from retail ad sales does not change the historical and current situation. You can have all the plans to convert it from a ponzi you want, but the fact is that it is now a ponzi and will be tomorrow.

Don't try to brush off the above by talking about how the new structure will change it all. There are structural problems with the new plan that we can discuss later. The current plan will be around for several months at least and has been used for 3 years to suck people in, so any changes don't excuse Kim from the current situation.

Just what makes a ponzi like YMMSS so bad? Why is there such an interest here in exposing it? Because every ponzi results in most people losing money. I'm interested to hear your response to explain the impossible mathematics of the business model:

It is economically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money every 90 days.

Kims solution to this limit was to generate outside income to feed it. This too is impossible since eventually he would have to earn an amount greater than all the wealth on the planet. His references to being diversifed with different divisions generating billions is irrelevent. Clearly he has failed since the cycle did not stay at 90. The problem many of us have with Kim is not that he failed since we all knew he would, but that these simple economics and mathmatics that any 10 year old can grasp (double a penny every day...), were obivous from day 1 of his conception of this ponzi. This being so, either he doesn't have the understanding of a 10 year old, or it was a deliberate, calculated plan to rip people off.

I look forward to your response.

[esto]

Hi Gringo.

You ask:

It is economically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money every 90 days.

END

I agree. Whether this is the reason for the needed change, I do not know. I do know the system as it is worked well prior to the difficulties that beset us last fall, leading to a serious loss in momentum.

But that is neither here nor there in terms of our future.

In the future we will not be perpetually doubling a sum of money every 90 days. We will doube purchases of $10, $20, $40, $80 and $160 every 90 days. When any of these reaches $320, they will be transferred into credits and credits will be used to determine a share of weekly income.

That is not perpetual doubling. It's paying a share of real money. If no money comes, in no money is paid. This really means that the achievement of $320 status by a $10 purchase is in itself irrelevant. The 32 credits thereby attained is relevant only if there is real income. If the income is $1 million and your credits are worth one-1000th of that amount that is a rational distribution based on rational achievement. It's finite, not eternal.

The purchaser of a position less than $320 is providing time to the business to achieve greater income, in addition to adding to income. If he or she wants to perpetualize anything, perpetual purchases (an illusion) will need to be undertaken.

We can debate the perpetual issue but it makes little sense.

Like the three percent sponsoree fee, the perpetual rollover of $320s will be gone.

The evolved YM will not offer perpetual anything. It will offer a good income to proactive members who believe that online advertising is as close to a perpetual and lucrative source of income as there is.

Best, S

[Gringo]

It is economically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money every 90 days. I agree. Whether this is the reason for the needed change, I do not know. I do know the system as it is worked well prior to the difficulties that beset us last fall, leading to a serious loss in momentum.


Okay, so now you agree that Kim's basic promise and fundamental concept on which YMMSS has been built is impossible. Did you just come to this realization when CT went over 90 days? All through the months past, you continued to predict a turn around. Just when did you finally realize that it was impossible to do what Kim said he would do--perpetually double everyones money every 60 - 90 days?

Still waiting for your response to my two points explaing why YMMSS is a ponzi:
1. The product/service is primarily purchased to participate in the money making scheme. It doesn't matter what the product is, in fact it could be something as expensive and substantial as a TV or car, but the key is that what is paid for the product is way out of line of the true value of the product. The difference being the premium to participate in the money making scheme. This is and has clearly been the history of YMMSS. By Kims own admission little if any income has been generated to date from the sale of ads to retail advertisers. Once the YMMSS auction went up the true value of the EPCs were shown to be 1% of their cost. A $10 EPC would sell for 10 cents. Clearly EPCs are puchased at a hugely inflated price, just to participate in the doubling scheme. 2. Participants are paid primarily with income from new funds added to the system. 95% of payments to YMMSS come from other members. 5% or less come from the outside income sources. This makes YMMSS a Ponzi. The reponse that the plan is to have most of the income come from retail ad sales does not change the historical and current situation. You can have all the plans to convert it from a ponzi you want, but the fact is that it is now a ponzi and will be tomorrow.


As I suspected, you are trying to brush everything off by talking about the proposed changes.But that is neither here nor there in terms of our future. We can debate the perpetual issue but it makes little sense.

Again, those changes are months away, and YMMSS has spent 3 years clearly operating as a ponzi as it does today. Talking about how one day in the future they will be a legitimate business doesn't minimize the fact that they have and are still operating a ponzi scam.

You opened this thread by talking about "character assassination" and "unfounded attacks" attacks against Kim, yet you have not responed to my explaination as to many of us are so critical of him:
The problem many of us have with Kim is not that he failed since we all knew he would, but that these simple economics and mathmatics that any 10 year old can grasp (double a penny every day...), were obivous from day 1 of his conception of this ponzi. This being so, either he doesn't have the understanding of a 10 year old, or it was a deliberate, calculated plan to rip people off.

[Dreamer]

Hey,

Have you actually looked at real raffles, giveaways, and the like, and see how it says "Void where prohibited. Not open to residence of (insert states)"?

Why is Belize so worried about Ohio law? If this 3% was so valuable, and your lawyers so wonderful, wouldnt it be a smart idea to use a disclaimer stating which areas of the world cannot receive the 3%?

And just claiming that you have lawyers doesnt do much for me. How many lawyers would you like me to list that are crooked because of the amount of money they were getting? Money does turn a man evil.

I think you also made a reference that ponzis start off with somebody wanting to con and make alot of money or something. Uhm...it doesnt matter why it was started up or anything like that. If I decide to go to the bank to withdraw some money to pay bills, thats fine. If I decide to hold up the bank while I'm there, can I use my defense that I just was there to withdraw money?

You also made reference that kim has tried to focus on the product (silly advertising). Yeah, con men do that...Its called watch my left hand so you dont know my right hand is stealing your wallet.

The truth is, most people dont sell anything using EPCs. The epcs are sold for pennies on the dollar on the auction site, but are not sold anywhere else. It is not priced competitevly with comparable products on the market. Therefore, it is not a true product, but it is just smokescreen to cover up illegial activities.

[Dreamer]

2. Ponzi. I think the definition of this term is massivly wide, extending even to the US Social Security system! YM does have a legal staff and it has advised us on all aspects of our program. For example, most recently, we were told that the three percent we presently give as a commission on the purchases of sponsorees creates problems in several jurisdictions. The intent is to remove this commission in the future. One could argue that our lawyer is not going to bite the hand that feeds him or her, but that would not be a very good way of earning one's keep. If there was any aspect of YM that could be argued to be an illegal Ponzi, I am reasonably sure we would know it by now.

First, Social security is a socialist agenda. There is nothing ponzi related to a government wanting to take care of its aged citizens. The role and purpose of government is to provide for its citizens. So, no, its not a ponzi.

I once knew a loan shark who probably had a legal advisor of his own. I'm sure alot of law breaking citizens have legal advisors. There is such a thing as client/lawyer priviladges, and if I know i"m breaking the law, why not have an advisor try to keep me as legal, or legal appearing as possible?

And, I'm not even sure this laywer of yours is any good...now he decides that the 3% might not be that good? Did he just not know the law before? Was there a new lawsuit that made him change his mind? Now, if he is a good lawyer why doesnt he take an effort to find out which areas would be a bad thing to give 3% and just not give it to citizens in those areas? If your lawyer changed his mind about this, and the pay structure, what else is he going to change his mind about?

At least when I called the labor board in my state, they actually knew the law.

You said your lawyer would know it by now regarding ponzis. He's already changed his mind a few times. You should consider a new legal team.


Having said that, I am not sure it makes sense to reiterate all the arguments I have posted previously. Let me confine myself to two issues:

Don't reiterate them. I responded to each individual point you made. Why not respond to my points instead?


-- A Ponzi's product is ephemeral and ultimately may not even exist in any tangible way. It is an excuse to get investment. I think this is superficially what one might argue regarding YM. Even though there can be no argument that YM has sold advertising and that members have used it and profited by using it, the very shape of things would enable someone to argue that a purchase of say $10K in EPCs was an investment pure and simple. And that the EPCs were ephemeral. My response to that is that if there is truth in that characterization, we are moving rapidly to make that inference false. I do not have all of the details, but in essence the price of EPCs is going up as we move to implement our full business model -- with the retail ad site at its forefront. I am not sure whether the term EPCs (Electronic Posting Credits) will survive. A more accurate term is Discounted Advertising or Wholesale Advertising. Whatever the term, I believe that once one has a $320 position (either buying it outright or cycling to it via fixed 90 day cycles) one will have that much in Discounted Advertising to "spend" one time only and that if one wants to use this discounted product one would have to buy further positions. This means that the number of actual ad credits will be equal -- I think -- to the total number of $320 positions in the evolved system. The most compelling argument that we do not have a true product will diminish considerably, if not disappear, when we have retail advertisers paying many times $320 to advertise on our public ad site/s.

Actually most people on ymmss are interested in cycle times, the new payment plan, etc, which suggests that they are not there for advertising, but for doubling the money. Your argument than becomes we are trying to make that false. But, it is currently true. Even you, you came here saying "I am a 6-figure earner". Now you didn't say "I am a successful advertisers" or anything like that, so even for such an ambassador as you, your focusing on the money that you made thru doubling, and not...advertising.

As for the new payment system, that even looks more like a ponzi to me. The focus is now off advertising, there is guaranteed cycle times for this "discount" garbage, and instead of having an actual cash value, you are given a certain percentage of the revenues, so it is now an investment opportunity, not an advertising business.


-- Another common characteristic of a Ponzi is that the originator of the system has only one motive -- to get rich himself and eventually arrange for a collapse that leaves him high and dry and all members soaked. Here we come to what I see as a common theme running through many of the critical posts here. Kim is a crook! Let me preface my response by saying that I have no love for adulation of any human being. I think it is unseemly. Even idolatrous. And Kim has certainly been the subject of adulation. I like Kim. I respect him. I know him fairly well. We just travelled to UK together and I spend enough time to know him as a forthcoming and instinctively helpful person. I also think he is highly intelligent and sincere and funny and very much at home in the world of ordinary folk where he is fluent and at ease. Do I believe him when he emphasizes values such as helping? Yes. Even to the point of a fault. I have had Kim call me and take serious time trying to talk me through a resizing glitch. Kim receives approximately 22 percent of all the income that comes into YM from wholesale ad purchases. This is divided between funds for investment to create added income streams (currently we receive somewhat over $400K monthly into our CPA.) and admin funds which pay not only salaries and other expenses but material expenses such as the equipment we need to exist as an online business. The precise and even methodical growth of YM is to me proof positive that Kim is not engaged in any respect in an effort to gain funds for his own selfish ends at the expense of the membership. And he is most definitely not planning for a collapse that will line his pockets and leave us all broke.

Lots of fluff here, but I will address it. First, any business, legit, or otherwise, the point is to make money. If kim is stealing 25% off the top, in addition to any funny business of giving himself shares that he doesnt pay for, skimming more money off the top, or pocketing any outside revenues, as if anything is coming from the outside, he has no reason to want to close shop. Even just the 22% per purchase is incentative enough to keep it going as long as possible, for every new sale will give him more money if there is no funny business going on. So, that is why he doesnt need to run away while there are still people wanting to give him money.

Have you ever met a conman who isnt likable, charming, chrastamitic, funny, articulate, intelligent, or anything else you used in your fluff piece? Not much of a conman otherwise. I wont reiterate what others have said, but any good conman will make u act like hes your best friend so you'll continue to give him money.


Our business plan is not that of a Ponzi. The plan is to have three basic income rivers, all three of which are now moving into an evolved form.

Doubling money in 90 days seems pretty ponzi to me. Even your statement of why its not a ponzi suggests in the future it might not be a ponzi, but that doesnt say anything for now. So, can i be safe to reword your argument to say right now we are probably a ponzi, but we hope one day not to be?


Retail Ads -- with our membership serving as a demographic willing to supply vital demographic info to potential ads and to use forthcoming weekly pay as an earnest of their intent to patronize advertisers; Investment Income Streams -- under the direction of our CFO, slowly building with a model that protects principle and enables exit in the event investments do not perform;
and wholesale ads with many if not all members promoting a public ad site and patronizing the advertisers.

And why should any of this happen when it hasnt? the memberbase has already shown it does not buy from each other. Most people are in the red in ymmss, not having withdrawn at least their original stake yet, because they were promissed a reaccuring income forever, and now they are going to be stuck with a profit sharing system with no cap on the number of positions available. Simply put, a majority of the members have never cycled once, and will not have the funds to buy from advertisers.

Investments have no guarantee, so i'm not sure how that can be considered an income stream where it is 10x easier to lose money on investments instead of making money.

Wholesale ads still havent been done yet, and again, most people have not made back their money with ymmss, so they are not in a position to buy from advertisers.


Increasingly we are proactivating our membership. The first indication was the Ad Survey which is essentially required. Around 18K have taken it and we may indeed face a fall-off from more than 25K members to closer to 20K. Whatever, the membership is moving toward more participation. We are building our YMForums membership daily and it is now around 8,400. Our model involves turning a portion of our membership into a trained corps of advertising agents who can earn up to 15 percent in commissions.

How many of the 18,000 came from ymmss members? And, what exactly does this have to do with ponzi?


If anything we are moving away from web-ops to a model that essentially places our affiliates in the position stockholders are in most businesses. Only better. Affiliates get close to 80 percent of the profits back. The profits will be maximized as retail ad revenue begins and as income streams increase. It is in my view a winning business model.

Actually, shareholders have around a 99% of the profits back. The difference is there is a limited about of stock for a particular business, and, based on the success of the business, the stock becomes more or less in demand and the price flucuates. The remaining 1% goes to the actual houses that buy and sell the stock for them.


Does the retention of a cycle model make this a matrix? I am honestly not sure. However we describe it, the evolved system will enable an affiliate to achieve a $320 position with a $10 purchase after the passage of that $10 through fixed 90 day cycles. No longer is this anything like the current "in at the bottom out at the top". Each person will have their own account. It is much more like a compounding mechanism.

The cycle time can still be figured out by finding out when the money will be doubled. With the estimates people been using, each position will take about 2 years to double, assuming nobody ever buys a position again. But, after 1.5 years when all the $10 turns into 1 position, people will get alot less of a percentage of the whole. But, of course, kim is sticking to the ponzi model very will by paying more to the early birds than the newcomers.


More later. I know there are other questions I have not yet addressed. If I do not do so in a timely way, please be good enough to reiterate them.

Would it be easier to set up a specific forum so that multiple threads can be used instead of just one long thread? So, each thread can remain on topic, than we can go ahead and delete everything right away like ymmss does?


Cheers

I refuse

[concerned]

If people treated it this way I would say it was a mixed bag in the sense that whenever asked YM (Kim and others) stressed the product aspect. Ponzi did not sell advertising. We did and do.

No, Ponzi didn't sell advertising. He sold stamps. He also stressed that you were buying the stamps. So far you have told us that both the YMMSS model and ponzi model both sold something. You were asked to tell us how it is different, and you told us something very similar. What makes it DIFFERENT?

[esto]

Here are the questions I have gleaned since my last post. Responses are proceeded by >>>>

Why is Belize so worried about Ohio law? If this 3% was so valuable, and your lawyers so wonderful, wouldnt it be a smart idea to use a disclaimer stating which areas of the world cannot receive the 3%?

>>>> We operate in various states. The three percent is not seen as valuable but as a liability for many reasons.

How many lawyers would you like me to list that are crooked because of the amount of money they were getting?

>>>> None, thanks. If you think our lawyers are incompetent or crooked that is your privilege.

There is such a thing as client/lawyer priviladges, and if I know i"m breaking the law, why not have an advisor try to keep me as legal, or legal appearing as possible?

>>>> This privilege applies to admissions of criminality on the part of a client.
Our lawyers research the legality of what we do so we do not incur liability.

now he decides that the 3% might not be that good? Did he just not know the law before? Was there a new lawsuit that made him change his mind? Now, if he is a good lawyer why doesnt he take an effort to find out which areas would be a bad thing to give 3% and just not give it to citizens in those areas? If your lawyer changed his mind about this, and the pay structure, what else is he going to change his mind about?

>>>> The three percent has always been a sticking point and now is a good time to change the policy. The entire mlm model wrestles with this constantly and we are moving away from any imputation that we are in any way related to mlm or similar opportunities.

RE: Ponzi:

Why not respond to my points instead?

Quote:
-- A Ponzi's product is ephemeral and ultimately may not even exist in any tangible way. It is an excuse to get investment.

>>>> I think there is no question that a person who joine STA/YM is looking to earn and in fact the earning comes not merely from the use or resale of ads but from fulfilling the obligations of membership which include filling out at least one demographic survey and reading ads for a total of a half hour weekly. This may not seem like much but it does add up and will add up even more when our new ad site has more sophisticated timing scripts. YM is a better option for me than a pension fund or an insurance policy or securities even though it is not an investment. It is what YM says it is, a purchase of discount advertising which entitles me to affiliate status if I abide by certain requirements.

Have you ever met a conman who isnt likable, charming, chrastamitic, funny, articulate, intelligent, ... ?

>>>> No.

So, can i be safe to reword your argument to say right now we are probably a ponzi, but we hope one day not to be?

>>>> No. We may never know whether the present system would have returned to 90 day cycles because the new system will take over before the current cycle returns to 90 days. The reasons why are myriad. The forthcoming system is more mainstream and more solid in its concept. There is no law against improving.

And why should [affiliates buy from the retail site] ... when the memberbase has already shown it does not buy from each other.

>>>> Affiliates do buy or sign up or otherwise respond to current affiliate advertising. We will be going after a constituency as we enter the evolved system that underlines our value to persons who shop online and who value good deals and who are comfortable with the convenience and choice avalable in online shopping.

How many of the 18,000 came from ymmss members? And, what exactly does this have to do with ponzi?

>>>> This refers to persons who completed our retail ad survey. I am not sure of the final figures because the time has not fully elapsed for completion. This activity to show that we are not like a Ponzi. We require participation in activities related to our business.

No, Ponzi didn't sell advertising. He sold stamps. He also stressed that you were buying the stamps. So far you have told us that both the YMMSS model and ponzi model both sold something. You were asked to tell us how it is different, and you told us something very similar. What makes it DIFFERENT?

>>>> YMMSS does not just sell advertising, it delivers it and provides venues for ads and enables transactions between advertisers and affiliates by means of an internal mail system on the site. We differ in that we are not "a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying returns to investors out of the money raised from subsequent investors." We depend on cooperation, teamwork and a commitment to civil and supportive community. Envy and greed have no place here as in Ponzis. Our head does not take the money and run. We do not disguise our actual operations.

[Dreamer]

>>>> We operate in various states. The three percent is not seen as valuable but as a liability for many reasons.

The 3% is valuable to the memberbase, so why not exclude the areas that it might cause a problem?


>>>> None, thanks. If you think our lawyers are incompetent or crooked that is your privilege.

Actually, I never said that, maybe I implied it. However, just because somebody has a lawyer doesnt make them law abiding citizens.

>>>> This privilege applies to admissions of criminality on the part of a client. Our lawyers research the legality of what we do so we do not incur liability.

What area of law does your lawyers specialize in?

>>>> The three percent has always been a sticking point and now is a good time to change the policy. The entire mlm model wrestles with this constantly and we are moving away from any imputation that we are in any way related to mlm or similar opportunities.

Now that even suggests greater that you realize that what your doing is illegial if you want to try to stear as far away from what you've been doing for 3 years. Why was it good for 3 years, and not now?

>>>> I think there is no question that a person who joine STA/YM is looking to earn and in fact the earning comes not merely from the use or resale of ads but from fulfilling the obligations of membership which include filling out at least one demographic survey and reading ads for a total of a half hour weekly. This may not seem like much but it does add up and will add up even more when our new ad site has more sophisticated timing scripts. YM is a better option for me than a pension fund or an insurance policy or securities even though it is not an investment. It is what YM says it is, a purchase of discount advertising which entitles me to affiliate status if I abide by certain requirements.

So, another admition here that one of the main reason people join is for the ponzi aspect? There is nothing in regards to ponzis that say the membership is not active. And the reason why its a good option for you since you started very early in the game you have taken plenty of money from many people who have not cycled once. I'm sorry, I know I said I would behave, but you say its better then a pension fund, and thats because your in the 5% minority who have made money from the 95% who have not made money.

>>>> No. We may never know whether the present system would have returned to 90 day cycles because the new system will take over before the current cycle returns to 90 days. The reasons why are myriad. The forthcoming system is more mainstream and more solid in its concept. There is no law against improving.

Actually, its not as difficult to figure out if it will ever go back to the 90 days. Just see how long it takes to double.

>>>> Affiliates do buy or sign up or otherwise respond to current affiliate advertising. We will be going after a constituency as we enter the evolved system that underlines our value to persons who shop online and who value good deals and who are comfortable with the convenience and choice avalable in online shopping.

Can you dig up any information supporting this claim, like how many ads have been posted on ymmss and how many have resulted in a sale?

>>>> This refers to persons who completed our retail ad survey. I am not sure of the final figures because the time has not fully elapsed for completion. This activity to show that we are not like a Ponzi. We require participation in activities related to our business.

Have you been talking to viper about this? He says silly things like that also

>>>> YMMSS does not just sell advertising, it delivers it and provides venues for ads and enables transactions between advertisers and affiliates by means of an internal mail system on the site. We differ in that we are not "a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying returns to investors out of the money raised from subsequent investors." We depend on cooperation, teamwork and a commitment to civil and supportive community. Envy and greed have no place here as in Ponzis. Our head does not take the money and run. We do not disguise our actual operations.

Actually most well run ponzis operate the same way. If people actually believe its a legit business, they will cooperate, have teamwork and all that to help each other. Again, dont listen to viper. Charles did not take the money and run.

[Otherguy]

Hi Otherguy --

I am just getting the hang of things here. I had to go back a page to find your questions. I will paste them below and my answers will be preceded by >>>>
It is the old asc2 nut in me coming out.

QUOTE:

1. Has Kim had any experience in generating this sort of money from outside revenue sources?

>>>> He is getting it. I do not think Kim had anything like the funds that would have made this effort feasable. He hired Mark Boike to be our CFO because he knew he needed a more experienced hand. I do know doing this was part of his business plan.

2. To achieve the type of income needed from the starting capital he has will be a very rare and difficult business feat - why will he succeed where many others with more business experience and as much integrity have failed?

>>>> I don't have an answer other than an awareness that there are opportunities all over the world which make having capital to place at the disposal of others can become very lucrative. I suspect it remains a hit or miss proposition and that at the end of the day we will succeed because of a conservative approach that protects principal and proceeds with minute attention to due diligence.

3. Is there anything more concrete you can tell us about Kims plans to get the outside revenue? I understand he has quoted a lot of figures, but given no info as to exactly how the money will be generated.

>>>> Kim has had to learn to curb his enthusiasm. I do not think he has quoted figures for any reason other than to share in a transparent way with affiliates. However, this has had to stop or radically diminish. The only figures I hear now are the $300K a month and $25K weekly that I have referred to in a previous note. I also hear the 16-19 million figure for the summer of '06 mentioned. This is an in the works thing in which it is possible to observe progress.I believe when Kim says it is on track and that it will happen he is speaking of observations of increased capital increase. That is all I know.

4. YMGOLF, YMAUCTIONS etc. To me they look amateurish and likely to raise only a very little money. I think they will do more harm in turning away potential YMMSS members than the money they will bring in is worth. What is your opinion of these sites and what they say of Kims business acumen?

>>>> When they came out prior to the evolution of the system itself I thought they, and the Linkshare links and various other YM branded things, were somewhat as you describe them. Conceptually, however. I think they can become huge. They can get more professional as we are able to afford professional management at that level. The limits on the creation of such sites are bounded only by imagination. For example I have always thought there was a huge potential business in an archival site which would continue sites after their owners have gone on to their happy hunting ground.

END QUOTE

Now I feel I have answered your questions! Cheers, S

Thanks for your reply Esto. While you have clearly put a lot of thought into them, to me, they still look hope based rather than numbers based.

I'd like to quote some numbers at you, please correct the ones you disagree with. And tell me what you think.

All numbers are for the year 2006.

At the beginning of 2006, there are $60 Million in $320 EPC's in YMMSS. (The $60 million is a very rough guesstimate based on that you have paid out $80 million so far).
This will give 187,500 $320 Positions, or on average 9.375 positions (or $3000) per YMMSS member (assuming 20,000 members).
Generating $60 million in profit in 2006 will give every position approx $6.40 per week, or on average $60 per week per member.
To generate this profit, based on all 3 rivers being equal :
Advertisers to spend $20 Million in Retail ads on advertising to 20,000 people ($1000 per person)
Advertisers to spend $20 Million in wholesale ads on advertising to 20,000 people (another $1000 per person)
Outside revenue (profit) $20 million.

Another (very simple) way to look at the numbers :

20,000 members. Each earning $400 per week through YMMSS. $416 million profit per year needed.

Esto, please correct any of my numbers you think are unfair. Once we get some numbers we can agree on I can really pinpoint exactly to you why I think YMMSS is so unlikely to work.

[papabear]

I agree. Whether this is the reason for the needed change, I do not know. I do know the system as it is worked well prior to the difficulties that beset us last fall, leading to a serious loss in momentum.

But that is neither here nor there in terms of our future.

In the future we will not be perpetually doubling a sum of money every 90 days. We will doube purchases of $10, $20, $40, $80 and $160 every 90 days. When any of these reaches $320, they will be transferred into credits and credits will be used to determine a share of weekly income.

That is not perpetual doubling. It's paying a share of real money.

Esto,

Above is a perfect example of one of the biggest problems with YMMSS, and those who defend it. You cannot just brush off - as you did in your comments above - the past 3 years of how YMMSS has operated, which is obviously as a ponzi. "The difficulties that beset us"??? Esto, please! I know you are smarter than that, and so am I. You know, and I know, that the only TRUE difficulty YMMSS encountered is that the ponzi YMMSS is had finally blown up, as all ponzis do. The money it was obligated to pay out exceeded the money it was taking in. All the other "reasons" were smoke and mirrors.

"But that is neither here nor there" you say??? THAT is EVERYTHING! At this point, it truly does not matter if Kim is now trying make YMMSS APPEAR to be legitimate. It doesn't even matter if he really plans to make it into an honest business. What matters is what he has done for the last 3 years. If he is nearly as intelligent as you seem to think, and as I believe he is, there is NO WAY that he could NOT have ABSOLUTELY KNOWN how things would turn out. And yet, he told me directly, as he did so many others, that cycle times would never exceed 90 days, and that he had funds in place to guarantee that. I cannot view that as anything but outright deceit.

Why won't you or anyone else address what I see as the most important point Gringo raised? How is it that Kim, who is so intelligent, could not have known that the YMMSS plan was fatally flawed from the beginning, when even a child is capable of grasping that fact? It's not possible. And yet, he made his assertions of the infallability of the YMMSS business plan over and over and over again. And people believed him, and lost thousands of dollars because of it, while he became wealthy. That is everything. That is why he cannot be trusted. Period.

And by the way, just so everyone reading this forum understands how you made your thousands in YMMSS, you got involved with YMMSS fairly early on, and dumped thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars into YMMSS, buying many, many $320's and $160's, in addition to smaller positions, so of course you made thousands and thousands of dollars in the process. But your situation is unique in relation to the vast majority of YMMSS affiliates.

[esto]

Hi

Questions regarding the three percent and lawyers I honestly feel have been covered to the extent I can cover them. I do not know such things as the lawyers; area of expertise, how many attorneys are involved and so forth. I have said I'm happy the three percent is ending. I do not think there is much more to discuss.

Let me say why I think it was reasonable to believe the original system would work. It really was based on a number of factors. I assume you know them. It has been conceded by all that the announcement of the 6.5 percent fee on all sales announced last fall was a powerful impulse behind purchasing. And no one can argue that the succession of delays when the new site came up was exceedingly inimical to normal operations. These are not excuses as I see it. I am simply trying to explain why I believed and I think Kim also believed that minus these and several other "Murphy" events we would have maintained momentum.

We are moving to a system that will accomplish income aims for our affiliates based on money in, with a vastly better prospect for linking affiliate purchases to what I have called income rivers -- retail ads and investments.
It will not offer permanent rollovers. It will be very good but not too good to be true.

The issues we face now really have nothing to do with either Ponzi charges or the three percent. They relate to the time it will take to move to a serious momentum gain. How we will promote the new system and to whom. How we will create memberships on a continental basis. What the content or the various sites that are in the making will be. And understanding the new system as a pay system and detecting any problems that need to be addressed.

I think it cannot be said too strongly that we have become a member-driven company. The 8500 members of our Forums are literally forming the business because this long winter has opened up channels for sharing back and forth that have had a tangible effect on the shape of our program. In a way we have created a large group of able folk who are revving up to become proactive and are already contributing ideas that are in many cases being received and implemented.

Best, S

[esto]

My responses are prefaced with >>>>


All numbers are for the year 2006.

At the beginning of 2006, there are $60 Million in $320 EPC's in YMMSS. (The $60 million is a very rough guesstimate based on that you have paid out $80 million so far).

>>>> I have no idea if this is correct. Math isn't my strong suit. We have paid out over 90 million since the start of 2004 but I have no idea how many $320
positions that will be come the start of 2006.

This will give 187,500 $320 Positions, or on average 9.375 positions (or $3000) per YMMSS member (assuming 20,000 members).

>>>> Again I am not sure. I do not think there is anything like this average though. I did do some figuring some time back and my guess is that over 10K members have involvements of under $1000.

Generating $60 million in profit in 2006 will give every position approx $6.40 per week, or on average $60 per week per member.

>>>> Again this is a hypothetical figure and could be high or more likely quite low depending on various factors.

To generate this profit, based on all 3 rivers being equal :
Advertisers to spend $20 Million in Retail ads on advertising to 20,000 people ($1000 per person)

>>>> I would think this is a realistic first year figure for retail ads. It will take time to build revenue.

Advertisers to spend $20 Million in wholesale ads on advertising to 20,000 people (another $1000 per person)

>>>> I think this is low. Depending on response to the new system I think the income could equal or exceed 2004 income and that would make this figure about a third of what might be possible. Again it is complete guesswork.

Outside revenue (profit) $20 million.

>>>> Clearly the big kahuna if it comes to pass would be a major income stream kicking in a year from now which would mean well over this figure.

Another (very simple) way to look at the numbers :

20,000 members. Each earning $400 per week through YMMSS. $416 million profit per year needed.

>>>> I think this way of figuring is very unrealistic. I think there is a nucleus of serious members roughly equal to our forum membership which is 8500 now. I would think among this group there would be a substantial spread in income and could not begin to guess at an overall average. I have many sponsorees and could probably interpolate more accurate projections using those who are cycling (we still do pay!) as a sample.

Esto, please correct any of my numbers you think are unfair. Once we get some numbers we can agree on I can really pinpoint exactly to you why I think YMMSS is so unlikely to work.

>>>> The problem is we can't know. I do not know for sure that we will have investment income exceeding your overall projection by far. If we did that alone would probably ramp up payments immensely and make up for the times which have been leaner. We have no idea whether we will be like eBay was with pretty gradual growth in the early years and then explosive growth as it outpaced competition. Your ad projection I think is reasonable. A final remark is what does it mean for YM to work? It works now, but not as well as it can. Our membership is growing daily. It is becoming more involved. That to me suggests it is working now and that it will work in the future. I really think we are less comparable to a business than to a community and a movement of people. And that our common premises are positive and ethical and relevant to where we are today.

Best, S




Reply With Quote

[Arzel]

...
Let me say why I think it was reasonable to believe the original system would work. It really was based on a number of factors. I assume you know them. It has been conceded by all that the announcement of the 6.5 percent fee on all sales announced last fall was a powerful impulse behind purchasing. And no one can argue that the succession of delays when the new site came up was exceedingly inimical to normal operations. These are not excuses as I see it. I am simply trying to explain why I believed and I think Kim also believed that minus these and several other "Murphy" events we would have maintained momentum.

I would agree that the confluence of circumstances surounding the November 18th date did accelerate the problems inherent within the matrix model, but surely many people, yourself and Kim included should have been able to anticipate the upcoming problem. It is apparent just by looking at the graphs of membership growth and commissions paid, that membership growth was already showing signs of no longer maintaining the delicate balance required for a stable matrix.

I propose that many of the problems encounted after November of 2004 were the direct result of an attempt to stimulate membership growth. This attempt backfired causing an already worsening situation to become much worse than it would have been. I would also say it is fair to state that the implementation of the 3% sponser referral fee was a similar attempt to spur membership growth at faster rate to counter the growth of the matrix.

As has already been proven by members of this site, the problem with the matrix model is membership growth must grow at a rate equal or greater than the cycled commissions due to be paid. This of course is not attainable, and the matrix invariably collapses under it's own weight, as we have seen with YMMSS.


The issues we face now really have nothing to do with either Ponzi charges or the three percent. They relate to the time it will take to move to a serious momentum gain. How we will promote the new system and to whom. How we will create memberships on a continental basis. What the content or the various sites that are in the making will be. And understanding the new system as a pay system and detecting any problems that need to be addressed.


I agree that the 3% issue is not a primary aspect of the current problems, I disagree regarding the previous, still current, ponzi/matrix nature of YMMSS.

Cycle times are currently in excess of 260, and most agree that they will not go down or, even slow in their increase, until the new system is put into place. That said, YMMSS is some 6 month behind in maintaining a 90 day cycle time frame, and estimated by some to be $100 million behind in commissions paid (based off a 90 day cycle).

I don't see how the future system will be able to maintain a stable share value for EPC's when the current system is not even close to being able to maintain a stable cycle time. Sure more members will now see some actual money, but it won't change the fact that the time required to get back their intial investment will be over a year or longer.

Additionally, now that the primary incentives for joining YMMSS are no longer there, what is the motivation for someone to join? You know as well as most here, that a good number of your potential membership base are individuals looking to make a substantial income in a short time, and I just don't see many people joining on the hopes of making a few dollars a week in a year and a half of reading advertisements.

On top of all this, your current membership base is no longer purchasing EPC's in substantial numbers, futher depressing the potential weekly value of an EPC share.


I think it cannot be said too strongly that we have become a member-driven company. The 8500 members of our Forums are literally forming the business because this long winter has opened up channels for sharing back and forth that have had a tangible effect on the shape of our program. In a way we have created a large group of able folk who are revving up to become proactive and are already contributing ideas that are in many cases being received and implemented.

Best, S

The talk of a "member driven group" has lost it's steam for YMMSS. Until Kim actually produces some serious outside income for YMMSS I see little change in the fundemental problems YMMSS currently is facing.

[Otherguy]

To generate this profit, based on all 3 rivers being equal :
Advertisers to spend $20 Million in Retail ads on advertising to 20,000 people ($1000 per person)

>>>> I would think this is a realistic first year figure for retail ads. It will take time to build revenue.

Advertisers to spend $20 Million in wholesale ads on advertising to 20,000 people (another $1000 per person)

>>>> I think this is low. Depending on response to the new system I think the income could equal or exceed 2004 income and that would make this figure about a third of what might be possible. Again it is complete guesswork.

Outside revenue (profit) $20 million.

>>>> Clearly the big kahuna if it comes to pass would be a major income stream kicking in a year from now which would mean well over this figure.

Another (very simple) way to look at the numbers :

20,000 members. Each earning $400 per week through YMMSS. $416 million profit per year needed.

>>>> I think this way of figuring is very unrealistic. I think there is a nucleus of serious members roughly equal to our forum membership which is 8500 now. I would think among this group there would be a substantial spread in income and could not begin to guess at an overall average. I have many sponsorees and could probably interpolate more accurate projections using those who are cycling (we still do pay!) as a sample.



Thanks for your reply Esto. Now I'll explain why I think your projections are way out.

You say that together (retail and wholesale), advertisers would be willing to spend $2000 or more PER PERSON advertised to over the whole year. Now giving the advertisers a generous 25% profit margin on what they are selling, that would mean the average YMMSS member would have to spend $8000 on the advertisers products just for the advertisers to break even - even more to make a profit. I think the chances of this happening are unlikely in the extreme. Bottom line, I just don't think advertising being sold by YMMSS is worth anything like as much as what the members hope it is, and what is needed to provide it's members with a decent income - the stated goal of YMMSS.

As for the outside revenue, there is absolutely nothing concrete you can give me, just hopes and wishes.

As for my last figure about 20,000 members each earning $400 pw. I quoted this figure to show what is involved in getting enough income for thousands of people to change their lives. 8,500 members earning on average $400 pw requires 176 million a year. A huge ask.

I've done the numbers for YMMSS several different ways in my own time and can never get them to look realistic. If you have done any number crunching yourself I'd love to see what you have come up with. If you haven't, I strongly encourage you, NAY challenge you to present me with some numbers projecting what YMMSS can earn next year and why.

[Dreamer]

I personally would like to know why anybody would think that advertisers would continue to poor money into ymmss when they have no chance of making any money. The only time businesses are willing to take a loss on advertising is for product branding. Maybe a catchy jingle for the radio, a memorable 30second movie as a tv commercial, or just a logo for print advertising. I dont see any branding that will be more successful at ymmss/advertisers/ford/ad1 than just simply at ford.

So, why would any business do repeat business with ymmss if they cant make make any money that they spent?

[esto]

Good Morning. And thanks for these replies. They are less questions than statements of convictions but I do infer a question regarding income predictions for the coming year.

I think such projections are bound to be faulty. I can say best case worst case though, with reasonable certainty based on what I or indeed any one of you already knows.

WORST CASE -- and I do not believe this will happen. We would have a trickle of retail ad revenue. Under 6 million or around 125,000 weekly. We would average a low of $200,000 weekly in wholesale sales. And we would have only a very modest increase in income stream revenue -- say a $150,000 weekly average.

So the low income would be somewhat under 500,000 weekly, for an annual income of under $25 million.

BEST CASE Retail ads would average $250,000 or more a week with a steady growth from nothing to more and more. Wholesale sales would average 1 million weekly on a similar trajectory. And income streams would go through the roof with the addition or $10 million a week in July 2006.. (I am being deliberately conservative in this best case estimate. The result could be $16 million a week or even more.) This could bode well for an annual income in 2006 of more than $250 million.

The wild card is the income stream of $16 million slated for next summer. I feel it is unfortunate if we put all our eggs in this as yet unrealized basket. There is no way to prove this will happen. It will not have any impact until it does.

Let me mention some added reasons why we cannot make anything close to an accurate prediction.

Much of what we will be doing involves our membership. How many will train as ad reps? 1000? 2000? All 1000 trained ad reps would need to do would be to garner $5,000 each in ads to tilt the scale by $5 million.

How many will think up viable business partnerships and other YM-branded enterprises? We have a smart membership and I think by now anyone in our Forums knows that no good idea will go unheeded. The Web is explosive and who is to say that someone who joined yesterday will not conceive of a YM-branded This or That and thereby advance either income or membership, or both, by leaps and bounds? What we have done is to create a substantial core of savvy Web folk who have every reason to focus all their energies on income generation.

And we now have a communication and implementation structure that makes it likely that any good idea can come into being.

Conglomerate is the key word here. Kim has more than once referred to GE as the model for YM -- proliferating businesses and income streams. Maybe the likes of Google's and Yahoo's founders are lurking among our newbies.

I have tried to be honest here. But I recognize that someone could take my words and say, Esto says we will only make xxx in this area. So let me underline that no one can make accurate predictions including me. That does not invalidate hypotheses, but hypotheses are invalid anyway, until their application proves their accuracy.

I hope one side result of this discussion will be to scotch the frequent suggestion that Kim is in this to run off with the money. There is a much higher ambition at work. That is to change how business is done. To change how charity works. In effect, to change the world for the better. I am an action junkie. I think Kim is a change the world junkie. There is nothing wrong with either of these things. And I believe that is why, worst case or best, YM is the adventure of our lives.

I will eschew philosophy, but that is where this leads.

All the best, S

[surfer]

Glad to have someone who can debate(and insult)
in a much more professional manner.

Welcome to Matrix Watch.

I have read enough here to know that Kim Inman has recently been subjected to what can only be described as vicious and unfounded attacks.

Such attacks would not be permissable in most forums I am aware of. Assuming as I do that they are completely false, they represent a damaging participation of the forum in character assassination.
Virtually all of our "vicious and unfounded attacks"
are based on either mathematical analysis or
audio and printed documentation of Kim Inman's
indiscretions.

We now have people investigating the only as yet
unfounded allegation that I'm aware of here.
One final remark. I know there are many YMMSS members who are distressed with the unfair and inaccurate statements that have been posted here. I would plead with them to abide by the groundrules in this note. The last thing I want is to have YM affiliates here sink to the level of dialogue that I have seen.

Cheers, S
Most of the low level dialogue is brought on by
the irrational behavior of classy YMMSS affiliates
like your own YMForums mod Alan, but thank you
for insulting in such a well stated fashion.

I guess most of us would have 3 major concerns:
credibility, sustainability, and viability.

As far as I'm concerned, Kim's credibility as an
"honest" and "ethical" man continues to plummet.

Over many months I have watched him mislead
and lie to thousands of people. The deception
and lies are very well documented in your own
conference call notes.

Here is a copy of a post I made on scam.com
back in April. (http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=39492#post39492)

Begin C&P;)

Well, as the ponzi continues to go downhill, we
continue to see different excuses from Kim to
explain away the rising cycle times.

One time it's because people are waiting to
purchase with credit cards.

From July 22, 2004 conference call notes
Q14: Do you think the cycle times will ever get to 30 days?
A14: No. My management target has always been 60-90 days. I suspect the reason the cycles times are close to 80 days is people want to purchase EPC�s with credit cards. Today, they don�t really have a good way to do that. After August 16, the merchant account becomes available which allows credit card purchases. I expect that after August 16, you purchase with a credit card it is 8 days before it will hit the commissions payable account. That is when your purchase will be processed, on the 8th day. I expect to see the cycle times go down when the credit card purchases start hitting the commissions payable account.
Another time he blames it on the amount of time
it takes for manual processing.

From 9/2/04 conference call notes:
Kim wanted to address the growing concern of the cycle times going up. The reason they are going up is due to processing time. They will continue trying to catch up over the weekend. Sometimes the website gets updated before the payments get out, so allow a little time for that to happen. Keep in mind that the person who is doing the payment processing isn�t the same person doing the updates to the database. Kim has a fund established to ensure that the cycle time remains at 90 days or less and if we need to use those funds we will. Right now we don�t need it; what we need is more hours in the day or the new website to be launched. Once that happens, then the time that it takes us to process things today (� of a day) will take less than an hour. The cycle time is going up because of the growth factor we are experiencing and since processing is so manual right now, it�s somewhat difficult to keep up with it. Please don�t get worried or impatient; all good things come to those who wait.
Then he continues to promise to use funds to keep
cycle times at 90 days or less.

From 9/9/04 conference call notes:
Kim wanted to address the growing concern of the cycle times going up. They are currently at 90 days, but that doesn�t concern Kim at all. It will go down when other income sources feed it. Kim has a fund established to ensure that the cycle time remains at 90 days or less and if we need to use those funds we will. Right now we don�t need it; what we need is more hours in the day or the new website to be launched. Once that happens, then the time that it takes us to process things today (� of a day) will take less than an hour. If you are holding off making purchases hoping that the cycle time will go down, that�s not good�go ahead and make your purchases. Holding off purchases actually contributes to the cycle time going up, not down. Every day that you wait is a day of income that you are losing. If sales are greater than commissions, cycle times go down. If sales are less than commissions, cycle times go up.
From 9/23/04 conference call notes:
Q9: How does the cycle time range from 60-90 days?
A9: Commissions versus income determine the cycle times. If we have more income coming in than we have commissions going out for a particular date, then the cycle times are lower. If we pay out more commissions on a particular date than we have income coming in, then cycle times are higher. My policy is to keep those cycle times at 90 days or less. I have funds set aside out of my own pocket to fund the commissions� payable account if it becomes necessary. So far I haven�t really had to do that and those funds are still there and available. I also use funds to gain other income sources to feed the commissions� payable account.
Then he says it will go down after the new website
comes up. Just stop worrying and give me more
money.

From 11/18/04 conference notes:
Q3: We have seen a lot of growth over the last several months. Why isn�t the cycle time going down? Do we expect to see it go down after the new website comes up?
A3: We expect them to decrease after the new site is up. Cycle days don�t bother me. If they bother you, then you need to get more positions. We have a member that every time he doesn�t get paid, he buys another position. You control your future.
Then he blames it entirely on the new website launch
and again promises to put money in to get it back to
90 days or less.

From 12/2/04 conference call notes:
Our goal has always been to keep the cycle time for paying commissions to a 60-90 day time frame. Right now we are above 90 days; that is entirely because of bringing on the new website. But it is something that we needed to do. Kim is bringing in other income sources like he said he would if the cycle times went over 90 days. He also has monies out there that are generating income. He set aside money just for the implementation of the new website and the cycle times will go down. There are other investments, real estate and other financial instruments that he will not touch and that is for the longevity of the business.

Q11: How long will it take to get the cycle times back down to 90 or below?
A11. I can’t give you a time line, but I’ll tell you the process that I go thru. I’ll see what the results of today’s processing is and I’ll add funds to the commissions payable account. When we process again, I’ll see what the results are and if it is still over 90 days then I’ll add more funds to the commissions payable account.
We can't forget the "SQL attack" and the slow holiday
season.

From 12/30/04 conference call notes:
Q3: How do you think this SQL server issue will affect the cycle time in both the short term and long term?
A3: Long term it has no effect. Short term, it might inflate the cycle days by 2 days, but when we come back around for processing payments on those dates, the 2 extra cycle days will drop off and bring the cycle days back down. 90 days or so from November 18 (new website launch), this be a moot point. Remember we are in a transition period right now. Everything has its peaks and valleys so the cycle time will come back down. It is also the holiday season and people aren’t purchasing right now. In early December 2003, the cycle time was averaging around 60 days and then the holiday season approached and by January it jumped to 86 days. In November 2004, the cycle time was 90 days. We have gone through a total new website transition, the holiday season and the SQL attack and the cycle time hasn’t jumped nearly as high as it did last year. During this time, I have added hundreds of thousands of dollars to the commissions payable account from other income sources or we would have jumped out 20 extra days.

Plenty of different excuses for rising cycle times
when the only real reason is that you can't
double money for eternity.

A very well run ponzi. Congrats to the 6000-7000
people that actually may have made money
off of the last 16000-17000 that came in.

End C&P;)

I'm glad that your unfounded statements about
what we do at Matrix Watch made me take another
look at that post as it brought out at least one more
exaggeration/lie from Kim Inman.

In the December 30 conference call Kim claims to
have "added hundreds of thousands of dollars to the
commissions payable account from other income sources
or we would have jumped out 20 extra days"

When Kim made this statement proclaiming his own
virtues the most recent processing had been done on
12/29 and they were paying 9/14. Kim's statement
about saving "20 extra days" would mean that he
injected enough funds to cover 8/25 through 9/14.
There was over $4 million "paid" in that time span.
Even if every position was set to repurchase, it
would take over $1 million to cover "20 extra days".

Of course, since my statement back in April, Kim has
inadvertantly misstated for several months what was
at the time the only known outside revenue source.
For months, he was claiming it was $60K-$70K coming
in per week and then back in May it doubled? to $35K
per week. lol I could buy stating it wrong one time
on a conference call. But I certainly don't buy that it
was accidentally stated wrong multiple times.

While you may claim not to like the constant talk
of Kim's alleged outside income source of $16-$19
million next July, do you honestly think that many
affiliates would still have much hope of a decent
income if Kim didn't throw these distant carrots
out to the affiliate base?

You can also bet that many people are being
recruited using these unfounded and unsubstantiated
revenue sources.

Hopefully you get my point about credibility/integrity.
To deny that he has consistently misled and lied to
people is simply denying well documented fact.

Nothing "vicious" and nothing "unfounded".

Sustainability has been covered numerous times
on these forums and the new system doesn't really make
it more sustainable. Each and every week the RFA will
need to increase in order to maintain share value. And
it will have to do so at a level that is simply not realistic.
Some of your own members are finally having their eyes
opened to "dilution". Same problem as the old system.
It's simply packaged differently.

Viability of what YMMSS is supposedly all about....
advertising.

The paid to read model has always been a small time money
maker. YMMSS is allegedly going to attempt to take it big
time by promising ridiculous returns on investor money.

It will certainly be a strong test of Mike Hamilton's abilities.

In another thread I told YMMSS affiliate Mat_Watcher that
YMMSS is attempting to overcome both mathematics and
human nature.

Math on the sustainability issues.

Human nature....for 3 years people have been recruited on
the premise that they can do very little and make a ton of
money.

And that is exactly what they will do. The vast majority of
affiliates will never recruit a single person nor will they do
anything more than 30 minutes of reading per week in addition
to whatever surveys are deemed mandatory to keep from
being booted from the system.

That leaves people like yourself, Gary Harvey, Steve Fitzsimmons,
and the other hardcore YMMSS affiliates attempting to carry
the load by purchasing from the advertisers and bringing in
the new recruits.

The others will continue to do what is convenient. Instead
of waiting several days for something to be shipped from a
retail advertiser they will simply run down to Wal-Mart and
pick it up.

Despite our vastly different views, your time and effort here
are appreciated. And debating in a more professional manner
is certainly more beneficial to both YMMSS and Matrix Watch.

If you have the time to do any reading through these forums,
you will notice that every "business" that has come into
the "negative" spotlight to the degree YMMSS has is now
either completely closed or teetering on the brink.

Good day.

[Gringo]

Let me say why I think it was reasonable to believe the original system would work. It really was based on a number of factors. I assume you know them.
But now you know that it can't:
It is economically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money every 90 days.
So my question remains, when did you wake up to the reality? Further please explain-- if a 10 year old can see that doubling a penny every day in 38 days it's over a billion dollars, why you think it is "reasonable to believe the original system would work?" I can see people being sucked into a ponzi without looking at the obvious mathmatical impossiblily of it, but I find it very hard to believe that the originator of the system wouldn't have the brains of a 10 year old to see that it was impossible sustain. That leads us to believe that Kim did know from day one, and that the intent was in fact to rip people off.

[esto]

When did I wake up? is the only question I find in the notes above.

That is a good question. I really do not feel like someone who has woken up to some reality I did not perceive.

I feel that I always knew there were things I would have differently within the current system if it could be started de novo. But that this was beneath the surface. I was perfectly content with the system until around May.

At that point I made a rather celebrated post to our Forums called May or Bust or something similar. I do not keep what I write so I cannot repost it. It certainly convinced a lot of our members that I was not a Pollyanna sort, that I was deeply concerned about our company and its future.

I never had a question about Kim, however, and still do not. I know his strengths and I know that he has brought people in to help in areas where his own expertise is limited. He is a good leader and most do not know about the degree of his helpfulness to others.

What I questioned was the capacity of this cycle to be achieved in a reasonable time. The reasons why were and are myriad and if you wish to maintain that the underlying reason has to do with the fact that it is not viable, I find that now a non-issue. Whether it is viable or not we are moving on. It would be viable had funds come in to battle down the ct at a time when honest payment of members on three times a week basis was adding days by default. It would be viable if if if. Why bother to argue about that?

Challenge and response. I think Kim had already begun the research to create the evolved YM by the time I wrote that note. In public there was no willingness to change the system with caps and other limits, but members suggested and initiated a Pay if Forward campaign. In other words we tried hard to fight the good fight. I think everyone saw that it would take too long and that there might be a better way. But I confess that the solution Kim came up with was a brilliant reponse to the challenge -- and one based on member input.

Weekly payments.

Hit hard, we are responding now. The effort is not over and the result is not in the bag. It is never in any human enterprise. But I am confident that by years end we will see:

fixed 90 day cycles

weekly pay

retail ad sales kicking into the cpa

and an increase in membership and participation.

When this takes place we will have morphed from what began largely as a money op based on a matrix to a member-driven advertising business that shares the bulk of its income with members who can design their participation as they wish on a playing field more level than most.

When did I wake up? Daily. I do not care if we were once flawed in this way or that if we correct flaws and move on. I do not buy the characterizations of Kim here. I see him as a decent and honorable person. I also see people here that way. I tend to see anyone that way unless they give me reason not to.

Best, S

[ycchen]

What I questioned was the capacity of this cycle to be achieved in a reasonable time. The reasons why were and are myriad and if you wish to maintain that the underlying reason has to do with the fact that it is not viable, I find that now a non-issue. Whether it is viable or not we are moving on. It would be viable had funds come in to battle down the ct at a time when honest payment of members on three times a week basis was adding days by default. It would be viable if if if. Why bother to argue about that?
Why bother to argue about broken promise?! May be you don't care because you have made 6 figures out of the YMMSS's latecomers. I think they do care about changing the rule of the game without any justification and their agreement.

At least, your "company" should let all the customers who haven't made a penny to opt out if they do not agree with the new rule, right? That is the most basic business ethics. Will you do that?

[Dreamer]

You said you would hunt down answers.

1. Where is the $35k coming from, and how long has he been collecting it?
2. Where does the $300k come from, and how long has he been collecting it?
3. Any other income streams coming in, if so, how much, from whom, and how long?
4. This $19m that he is refereing to, where, how much, from whom?

Can you provide any figures from any monies coming in currently, or in the past, or that is expected to come in from the future? Is there any book keeping to keep people honest?

***

Edited part:

Can you also tell me why participating in the new plan is mandatory and that it is not optional? There are too many people who put too much of their own cash in the system that stands to never see it again because they cannot claim it. With cycle times going so far up and not even the diehards are making excuses anymore (3 days for processing, 1 day cuz kim sneezed, 4 days because the sun set, 15 days cuz kim burped) and the memberbase losing faith that they will ever cycle again (or even cycle once), dont you think those people would want to claim via website, get their money out and leave?

If this is a legit business, why are the rules being changed, and everything is just considered monopoly money? Why is this being forced? Most people stand to lose in this new payout system, and I give it about 2 months after implementation for MW to be proven right on this again and disgruntled members there complaining they were on time earning $2.75/share and now its down to $1.50 and steadly dropping more. Of course it will truely fail when all those silly $10 purchases start getting a percentage, and each $320 will then probably see $.40/share.

[esto]

Hi Dreamer,

>>>> = answers.

1. Where is the $35k coming from, and how long has he been collecting it?
>>>> Not sure. It has been common in recent weeks. We know when it comes on. Where it comes from is not info we're privy to. There are exceedingly good reasons for mantaining confidentiality about our income streams.

2. Where does the $300k come from, and how long has he been collecting it?
>>>> Same as above. This may increase to $600K one of these months.

3. Any other income streams coming in, if so, how much, from whom, and how long?
>>>> None that I know of. I would assume there will be more but it is a painstaking process and our funds are protected if the investments we make do not perform. Anyone is welcome to come to our Conferences online and Mark Boike is in charge of this area and will appear tomorrow, along with Mike Hamilton, who heads our retail ad business.

4. This $19m that he is refereing to, where, how much, from whom?
>>>> Don't know, I think references have been to July 2006 and the estimate has been 16-19 million, and I have no idea from shom, for the reason stated
above.

Best, S

[Dreamer]

Why are you not privy to basic information that you depend on as a member? Why are these facts and figures so hidden? Is it a possibility that they really dont exist? Yeah, I seen the $300k and $35k when looking at the payouts, but whos to say that didnt come from kims pocket as a token just to try to show that hes doing something?

You said you can get answers. Can you get those answers?

And by your own admission, of the $93million thats been paid out, is it safe to assume, if those $300k and $35k is an outside source, that less than $1million actually came from outside sources and the rest came from members buying epcs?

How much would you say that kim and management took out with their 22%? $35million? Do you think that $10 million has been withdrawn from the system by the members yet?

[surfer]

Since you are only addressing questions,
I'll atttempt to get as many questions out
of the way as possible:

Based on the documentation from my earlier
post, do you deny that Kim has made
multiple excuses for the rising cycle times?

Do you believe that he was not attempting
to entice people to purchase more by giving
these excuses and continually saying that
he expected things to turn around after
such and such date/event/etc., none of
which were accurate?

Do you deny that Kim Inman made promises
and guarantees that he either could not or
chose not to keep and that these were also
used to entice people to believe in the viability
and longevity of YMMSS, which encouraged
more purchasing?

Most of the marketing of YMMSS has been
done via YMMSS approved websites that state
things such as
What If I Told You
That you could earn HUNDREDS or
THOUSANDS of DOLLARS a month...

And You Can Do This With

No Sponsoring ** No Matrix To Fill
No Leads To Buy ** No Phone Calls

and
1) Every Single Member Gets Paid

2) There are NO requirements to Recruit

3) There are NO Monthly Commitments
Do you really believe that recruiting the
type of biz opp seeker that this type of
marketing appeals to is conducive to a
highly active affiliate base that will do
far more than the minimum requirements
necessary? Do you really believe that
people who are looking to make an easy
buck are going to step out of their comfort
zone and attempt to find retail advertising
clients?

We have heard stories of many people who
fell hook, line, and sinker for Kim's previous
promises and guarantees. Many of these
people have overextended themselves and
put themselves in extreme financial hardship
through there own naivete.

Some YMMSS members refer to these types
of gullible people in quite unfavorable terms,
stating that it's not Kim's fault that they put
themselves in this position.

While I do not disagree that we all should be
held accountable for our own actions, don't
you think it's more than a coincidence that
this isn't the first time Kim has led people to
put themselves in a position of financial
hardship?

From the YMMSS Development Story (http://www.emoneynews.com/member/?ID=esto&page=develop.htm)
People were joining and investing between $4,000 and $10,000, just like we did. Yes, you read that right, up to $10,000 even when we advised them not to.

Doesn't this seem like a developing pattern?

Do you also think that the members who are
so very critical of those who allowed their
belief in Kim to put their financial well-being
in jeopardy fail to realize that without such
foolish expenditures, cycle times would be
significantly higher than they are today?

Regarding the infamous pre-November 18th
buying spree:

Kim Inman and leaders such as Jim Hakim love
to blame the rising cycle times on the launch
of the new website.

Jim Hakim continues to refer to this period as
a "technical glitch. :rolleyes:

What none of you ever seem to acknowledge
is that if YMMSS affiliates had not gone on
such a spending spree before the new website
launched, cycle times would have already been
over 90 days well before the "glitch" period.
Why not?

I've seen numerous people ask why cycle times
didn't go down during these record breaking days
and nobody was willing to give a straight answer
when the answer was very plain to see.

Other than reasons obvious to us, why wouldn't
Kim, Jim, or one of the other front men simply
admit that record purchase days are what is
needed to maintain stability every cycle?

Kim was asked this question several times on
conference calls and played dumb or gave an
evasive response.

That should do for now.

[Gringo]

I was perfectly content with the system until around May. I never had a question about Kim, however, and still do not. I know his strengths and I know that he has brought people in to help in areas where his own expertise is limited. He is a good leader and most do not know about the degree of his helpfulness to others.

So now knowing that Kim's promise to perpetually double everyones money every 60 - 90 days is an economic impossibility, and appearantly just realizing this in May, although you were "deeply concerned" you did not explicitly state that the model was impossibly flawed in your May post? You still have no questions about Kim when the math on "double every 90 days" is so blantantly, clearly, obviously impossible that a child can see it?

It doesn't take experts to be brought in to help understand this. Kim has provided elaborate explainations of how he worked this out: " 9 month odyssey of researching various marketing matrices to try and figure out a system where EVERYONE can benefit". Are you saying that after these 9 months of research Kim couldn't see the obvious fatal flaw in representing that he could perpetually double everyones money every 60 - 90 days?

Is your answer to the failure of the design of the model that the flaw just accidentally slipped by Kim and all the experts? From the beginning skeptics pointed out the obvious yet Kim, you and the other mods either ignored the facts, or tried to explain how the outside income or retail ads would overcome the reason why all doublers/matrix/ponzi schemes fail. The skeptics would then point out the amount needed to feed the matrix would eventually exceed all the income in the world, thus the "solution" in fact would not fix the inevitable. In light of the above, I find it hard to believe that anyone would rationally have no doubts about Kim and still maintain that he is a good leader.

[esto]

Why are you not privy to basic information that you depend on as a member? Why are these facts and figures so hidden? Is it a possibility that they really dont exist? Yeah, I seen the $300k and $35k when looking at the payouts, but whos to say that didnt come from kims pocket as a token just to try to show that hes doing something?

You said you can get answers. Can you get those answers?

And by your own admission, of the $93million thats been paid out, is it safe to assume, if those $300k and $35k is an outside source, that less than $1million actually came from outside sources and the rest came from members buying epcs?

How much would you say that kim and management took out with their 22%? $35million? Do you think that $10 million has been withdrawn from the system by the members yet?

There's a vast difference between being a rational trusting member of YM and being someone whose basic assumptions are that it is nefarious, unstrustworthy and exploitative. There is an excellent note n our forums which I assume you have access to which explains much better than I can why it is an excellent policy of Kim's not to reveal details of investments. I would agree that the amount from these sources has been minor to date though I have no idea whether it is under or over $1 million in all. There is a possibility that the moon is blue. I would say it was most unlikely that these outside streams do not exist. Can I get better answers than this? It would not be high on my agenda. Why? Because I take Kim at his word and I am not cutious. I think our most important source of funding remains our own affiliates. For the record I have purchased far more in wholesale ads since this long cycle began than I did during the time I developed a six figure income. This is because I trust and believe in the busiiness.

Best, S

[esto]

Hi Surfer. I will attempt to answer withmy usual >>>> preface.

I'll atttempt to get as many questions out
of the way as possible:

Based on the documentation from my earlier
post, do you deny that Kim has made
multiple excuses for the rising cycle times?

>>>> He has explained it in numerouos ways and there are numerous explanations. One does not contradict another.

Do you believe that he was not attempting
to entice people to purchase more by giving
these excuses and continually saying that
he expected things to turn around after
such and such date/event/etc., none of
which were accurate?

>>>> No I don't. In fact I have heard Kim respond that YM would continue without any member purchases.

Do you deny that Kim Inman made promises
and guarantees that he either could not or
chose not to keep and that these were also
used to entice people to believe in the viability
and longevity of YMMSS, which encouraged
more purchasing?

>>>> There is no question that Kim has always said YM is for the generations and all of his actions have, in my judgment, been toward that end, including those deemed inconsistent or otherwise deceptive. He surprises at times. I had no idea he was working on the plan we are bringing into being as early as he was.

Most of the marketing of YMMSS has been
done via YMMSS approved websites that state
things such as

What If I Told You
That you could earn HUNDREDS or
THOUSANDS of DOLLARS a month...

And You Can Do This With

No Sponsoring ** No Matrix To Fill
No Leads To Buy ** No Phone Calls

and

1) Every Single Member Gets Paid

2) There are NO requirements to Recruit

3) There are NO Monthly Commitments

Do you really believe that recruiting the
type of biz opp seeker that this type of
marketing appeals to is conducive to a
highly active affiliate base that will do
far more than the minimum requirements
necessary? Do you really believe that
people who are looking to make an easy
buck are going to step out of their comfort
zone and attempt to find retail advertising
clients?

>>>> This is the best question so far and I agree entirely with what I take to be its premise. It is in tune with my own feeling from the beginning. We will need to move radically in our promotion away from the midway and toward the mainstream. In fact this is a good reason for eliminating the three percent sponsor commission and it is also why we will enf up with one or more official sites under company control replacing existing marketing nodes. I could not be more happy. I was unconfortaqble with this zone before I joined YM and I have always seen YM as being what it is in fact becoming as we speak.


We have heard stories of many people who
fell hook, line, and sinker for Kim's previous
promises and guarantees. Many of these
people have overextended themselves and
put themselves in extreme financial hardship
through there own naivete.

Some YMMSS members refer to these types
of gullible people in quite unfavorable terms,
stating that it's not Kim's fault that they put
themselves in this position.

While I do not disagree that we all should be
held accountable for our own actions, don't
you think it's more than a coincidence that
this isn't the first time Kim has led people to
put themselves in a position of financial
hardship?

>>>> To my knowledge Kim has no prior Web marketing history beyond a period in a MLM company in which he in fact urged people not to spend substantial amounts. YM was founded on the basis of his disenchantment with MLM. So I would put it this way. Kim founded YM to help people attain their financial goals. The events of the last six months or so were definitely hurting members. Therefore the new evolved YM was conceived and is now being implemented. The goal has consistently been to assist people to achieve their aims, not to entice people to spend beyond their means or otherwise disadvantage people.


From the YMMSS Development Story (http://www.emoneynews.com/member/?ID=esto&page=develop.htm)


Doesn't this seem like a developing pattern?

>>>> I think is is a misconception.

Do you also think that the members who are
so very critical of those who allowed their
belief in Kim to put their financial well-being
in jeopardy fail to realize that without such
foolish expenditures, cycle times would be
significantly higher than they are today?

>>>> If I understand this you are asking if I admit that critics of YM realize that purchases of wholesale advertising are helpful in reducing cycle times. I would assume so, yes. Any purchase of wholesale ads in YM assista in paying other members and enough of them can reduce cycle times. Is it foolish to spend thus? That is a choice we make.

Regarding the infamous pre-November 18th
buying spree:

Kim Inman and leaders such as Jim Hakim love
to blame the rising cycle times on the launch
of the new website.

Jim Hakim continues to refer to this period as
a "technical glitch. :rolleyes:

What none of you ever seem to acknowledge
is that if YMMSS affiliates had not gone on
such a spending spree before the new website
launched, cycle times would have already been
over 90 days well before the "glitch" period.
Why not?

>>>> I think the reason is simple. You are assuming ct went up because of the matrix nature of the program -- I think -- and we are assuming it went up because of a combination of factors. I have no history that proves to me that there was an inevitable rise in ct in store beyond 90 days prior to November.

I've seen numerous people ask why cycle times
didn't go down during these record breaking days
and nobody was willing to give a straight answer
when the answer was very plain to see.

Other than reasons obvious to us, why wouldn't
Kim, Jim, or one of the other front men simply
admit that record purchase days are what is
needed to maintain stability every cycle?

>>>> Kim has not that record days are necessary but most definitely that the reason there was no decline is because the funds were paying commissions on robust earlier buying. 2004 was a robust year.

Kim was asked this question several times on
conference calls and played dumb or gave an
evasive response.

>>>> Not so. I ask the questions of Kim so I should know.

Best, S

[esto]

Hi Gringo. Responses prefaced with >>>>

So now knowing that Kim's promise to perpetually double everyones money every 60 - 90 days is an economic impossibility, and appearantly just realizing this in May, although you were "deeply concerned" you did not explicitly state that the model was impossibly flawed in your May post?

>>>> I felt we faced an impossibly long time to resolve the problem we were in. I think it would have hurt the business not to change. We still have much to do to move us away from being a money opp to an affiliate driven advertising business. I still would not concede it was impossibly flawed, but I would happily admit the new model is tons better and more realistic.

You still have no questions about Kim when the math on "double every 90 days" is so blantantly, clearly, obviously impossible that a child can see it?

>>>> He does not say this now and I am not sure he ever did in just so many words. We all said such things as we will double your money every single cycle and that a cycle is 90 days. But we were urged months ago to remove such language from our promotional materials.

It doesn't take experts to be brought in to help understand this. Kim has provided elaborate explainations of how he worked this out: " 9 month odyssey of researching various marketing matrices to try and figure out a system where EVERYONE can benefit". Are you saying that after these 9 months of research Kim couldn't see the obvious fatal flaw in representing that he could perpetually double everyones money every 60 - 90 days?

>>>> Happily or not, we will never know if the original plan would have worked given the maintenance of the momentum we had. I think if you are looking for an admission it might be this. In light of the new plan and its reception, it is pretty clear that the original plan had features that were not as mainstream-promotable as the new plan does. I doubt you will ever get Kim or many other YM members who remain committed to say that the plan was fatally flawed.

Is your answer to the failure of the design of the model that the flaw just accidentally slipped by Kim and all the experts?

>>>> No. I do not look upon the entire last three years as failure. In fact I think it is fortuitous that it happened as it did. I doubt we could have begun any other way. I doubt we could continue with that model and do what we are now embarked on doing. I consider it a stage of development. If your project is to trash matrixes be my guest. We are moving as fast as we possibly can toward being an ad business that pays people to read ads and wins advertisers because our members read their ads and have weekly income to spend on online bargains that we can negotiate for our members.

Best, S

[Dreamer]

You said that you will try to get us answers. Its nice that you have faith in kim, that doesnt mean anything though.

I do not see why the financials of a company should be kept such a secret to the people it payrolls. This one point would probably shut up half the anti-ymmss people (or at least me) if the financials were made available to those who asked.

Where money is coming from and where it is going, what the 22% is being used for, what percentage is being repurchased, etc. That would show that there is absolutely no funny business going on.

The thing with scams, once you start asking reasonable questions, they want to obfuscate it as much as possible. Unfortunately saying that important things that matters should be kept quiet suggests something is not right.

While people there pretend its an advertising business, it obvious that 99%+ only care about the money making aspect of it, treating it as an investment opportunity. Notice how investment is not censored here. At least I know where my retirement moneys are going. Why anybody would give kim money and not be told whats going on with it is beyond me.

[Gringo]

I'm confused now. First, you agree that:
It is economically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money every 90 days. I agree.
then you say:
Let me say why I think it was reasonable to believe the original system would work. It really was based on a number of factors. I assume you know them.
and now you say:I still would not concede it was impossibly flawed,Your positions seem contridictory. Kims plan to double everyones money in a 60 - 90 day period was still represented as attainable just weeks before the new structure announcement, regardless of whether the wording on the website was changed. Besides, the point is from day one Kim enticed people to give him money on the representation that he would be able to do something that is economically IMPOSSIBLE. Further you state:Happily or not, we will never know if the original plan would have worked given the maintenance of the momentum we had. As if there is some doubt that it is and always was mathmatically impossible to perpetually double a sum of money.
So which is it Esto, impossible to perpetually double a sum of money as you have already admited, or possible/unknown?

[esto]

Hi again. Thanks for keeping me honest here. It is inconsistent.

You write:

So which is it Esto, impossible to perpetually double a sum of money as you have already admited, or possible/unknown?

END

The inconsistency is explained by conceding that in any practical economic sense it is impossible to double without hitting a limit. And at the same time asking you to concede that for a period of about two years YM managed to do just that. I would rather live with the inconsistency label than reject that significant history.

And that is really exactly where I want to be. I do not want to say I once believed it and now I don't or I had some doubts and now they have been vindicated. It is at least theoretically possible that sustainability could have been achieved had income streams and retail ads fallen into place earlier.

However here is an historical footnote. I do not believe any of us entirely believed the premise of _infinite_ doubling. I have my reasons for saying that. Certainly caps and other adjustments were proposed and considered all along.

I wish in a way that we were a mite friendlier about YM. I am not trying to convert anyone, But this is really an interesting business and its history will tell us a lot about how consumers began to claim from stockholders the profit ordinarily denied them as part of the mix. In the economy we are entering a business like YM is a significant model for a new form of enterprise.

Best, S

[MatrixWatch]

I wouldn't say that it is an interesting business model. It really isn't all that unique. In fact, I'd venture to say that Ponzi himself yielded better results than YMMSS has in its brief history.

The real determinant is the long-term sustainability of the business model. How fast they grew, or how many people they paid on in their glory days is irrelevant. I don't hear anyone singing the praises of the "dot-com stocks", except for those which actually built a sustainable model that triumphed in the season of reckoning (Amazon, eBay, Dell, etc.)

YMMSS will go down just like any other pyramid or ponzi did, and I think that anyone with a knowledge of these things will concur. I also agree that Kim is an intelligent person, since he was obviously future-thinking enough to realize that he needed to offshore his operations before things caught up to him.

YM is not a significant model for anything. It is an endless-chain scheme supplemented with extra revenues to push out its sustainability just a little longer. That is all. Many YM supporters are singing its praises by pointing to the building and the glorious architecture, while we are pointing to the poor foundation. And to make matters even more pressing...the storm of reality is coming, and that foundation will soon be tested. I have a feeling that things will end up exactly as we have predicted, and that is probably why YMMSS is becoming a little concerned about the consumer-vindication movement that is brewing here and elsewhere.

[Arzel]

Well Esto,

I must say you are quite adept at skirting questions. I am beginning to wonder why you have even chosen to come here in the capacity to answer questions.

You refuse to debate that YMMSS is a Ponzi (even though it is the ponzi like history of YMMSS which has brought YMMSS to the current problems it is facing), offering no real understanding of what a Ponzi is, or even how it works. Your main defense that YMMSS is not a Ponzi is that Kim has not run off with everyone’s money, and that YMMSS sells advertising, which has been shown to be all but worthless aside from the doubling aspect of the position associated with the purchase.

You claim to have no knowledge of outside revenue, or even an understanding as to how they work. Therefore you have as much knowledge as us to whether they even exist. You base their existence based on Kim’s word, as do we. And, based on Kim’s previous history, he provides no reason for anyone to believe him.

You state that Math is not your strong suit, yet when faced with mathematical evidence from people like myself (Statistics) you disregard our evidence and proceed to use theological irrelevancies about how things might work, or they could work if certain things had happened differently.

So I ask you. What is your purpose here in the capacity, which have designated for yourself?

[Otherguy]

WORST CASE -- and I do not believe this will happen. We would have a trickle of retail ad revenue. Under 6 million or around 125,000 weekly. We would average a low of $200,000 weekly in wholesale sales. And we would have only a very modest increase in income stream revenue -- say a $150,000 weekly average.

So the low income would be somewhat under 500,000 weekly, for an annual income of under $25 million.

BEST CASE Retail ads would average $250,000 or more a week with a steady growth from nothing to more and more. Wholesale sales would average 1 million weekly on a similar trajectory. And income streams would go through the roof with the addition or $10 million a week in July 2006.. (I am being deliberately conservative in this best case estimate. The result could be $16 million a week or even more.) This could bode well for an annual income in 2006 of more than $250 million.

All 1000 trained ad reps would need to do would be to garner $5,000 each in ads to tilt the scale by $5 million.

Kim has more than once referred to GE as the model for YM -- proliferating businesses and income streams. Maybe the likes of Google's and Yahoo's founders are lurking among our newbies.




Thanks for your reply Esto. My conclusion from what you told me is that you cannot give me anything real on which to base projections of future YMMSS success. I agree that nobody can make accurate predictions of exact numbers, but all you can tell me is what is hoped for. Castles in the air is all I see.

Your best and worst case scenarios of advertising income fail to take into account the number of people being advertised to, an estimate of what is a realistic amount advertisers can be expected to spend per person, and an estimate of the average amount of income each person would have to spend on the advertisers products. Leaving these 3 numbers out of any 'worst case/best case' scenarios, or 'all we need is 1000 people to sell $5000 in ads' is surely folly.

You also leave out any estimates of what dollar amounts would be needed to achieve YMMSS minimum stated goals for 2006. e.g. Supposing x amount of $320 positions, we would like to achieve y amount of dollars per week per position which would require z amount of profit.

As for $10 million a week being deeply conservative - if you guys can achieve that, forget YMMSS - that would be THE spectacular business miracle of the decade. $10 mill a week is Half a BILLION a year in PROFIT! and from what???

Your suggestion that some of your membership may come up with an amzing idea to benefit YMMSS greatly is, while not impossible, again hopeful in the extreme.

I believe I have tried very, very hard to give YMMSS a fair hearing. I am prepared to give Kim the benefit of the doubt (for now) and concede he is an honest person. But as for the YMMSS business model.....


...all is see is castles in the air.

[ycchen]

So I ask you. What is your purpose here in the capacity, which have designated for yourself?

Yes, it would be nice if Esto could explain what the purpose of coming over here, if he:

(1) cannot disprove our analysis that YMMSS is debt-driven redistribution program that use solely (or >95%) member's money .. i.e. ponzi.

(2) has no idea what Kim is doing except that he trust him and thus use all the numbers (and promises) that Kim thrown around without any rational justification;

Many members "used to" trust Kim until Kim broke way too many promises (go back to Surfer's documentation of Kim's broken promise post if you "accidently" skip it).

Kim and his promoter like yourself needs to answer REAL questions before anyone will give Kim any more money. If you cannot, may be you should ask Kim or someone else who knows what is trully going on to give us real answer, right? :)

[esto]

Arzel asks --

What is your purpose here in the capacity, which have designated for yourself?

My purpose is to challenge a false and even malicious portrait of Kim that was posted by one of your members. Throughout this thread I have described Kim as I know him -- as an honest, well-meaning and careful leader of a business I feel is innovative and significant. By offering to answer questions in a civil thread I thought I might at least build a tiny bridge of civility and I actually believe that has been accomplished to a degree, thanks to a measure of temperance on all sides.

I think I have actually told you a good deal in response to questions. As to our being a Ponzi I say no. Our wholesale ads are an actual and tangible product and they are about to increase in value just as Kim intended them to do. Our retail site will be promoted to millions in several languages and will contain affiliate ads purchased at wholesale, but will mainly feature retail ads . Members will be vitally active in selling our retail product and earning handsome commissions for same. And they will remain free to sell their wholesale ads if they wish. This is night and day compared to what CP was selling.

We will be here for a good long time -- I truly believe that.

I can hang out here as long as there are any questions. I would hope the Kim bashing would end at some point. My understanding is you are concerned with justice and determining the fairness and legality of businesses that have matrixes. That can be done without allowing a member to engage in unfounded character assassination.

All the best, S

[esto]

Yes, it would be nice if Esto could explain what the purpose of coming over here, if he:

(1) cannot disprove our analysis that YMMSS is debt-driven redistribution program that use solely (or >95%) member's money .. i.e. ponzi.

(2) has no idea what Kim is doing except that he trust him and thus use all the numbers (and promises) that Kim thrown around without any rational justification;

Many members "used to" trust Kim until Kim broke way too many promises (go back to Surfer's documentation of Kim's broken promise post if you "accidently" skip it).

Kim and his promoter like yourself needs to answer REAL questions before anyone will give Kim any more money. If you cannot, may be you should ask Kim or someone else who knows what is trully going on to give us real answer, right? :)

I would guess I am about as close as you will get to honest and forthcoming answers about YMMSS. If you think they are evasive, untrue or inadequate that is your privilege. I think I have been completely candid. Indeed some of the things I have said here would probably be of interest to people in our own forums. I value and even love the Internet and I feel a forum is a huge opportunity for free exchange of information and ideas. My answers have been real I can assure you. That they do not satisfy is probably also an inevitable reality. Best, S

[Arzel]

Arzel asks --

What is your purpose here in the capacity, which have designated for yourself?

My purpose is to challenge a false and even malicious portrait of Kim that was posted by one of your members. Throughout this thread I have described Kim as I know him -- as an honest, well-meaning and careful leader of a business I feel is innovative and significant. By offering to answer questions in a civil thread I thought I might at least build a tiny bridge of civility and I actually believe that has been accomplished to a degree, thanks to a measure of temperance on all sides.

I think I have actually told you a good deal in response to questions. As to our being a Ponzi I say no. Our wholesale ads are an actual and tangible product and they are about to increase in value just as Kim intended them to do. Our retail site will be promoted to millions in several languages and will contain affiliate ads purchased at wholesale, but will mainly feature retail ads . Members will be vitally active in selling our retail product and earning handsome commissions for same. And they will remain free to sell their wholesale ads if they wish. This is night and day compared to what CP was selling.

We will be here for a good long time -- I truly believe that.

I can hang out here as long as there are any questions. I would hope the Kim bashing would end at some point. My understanding is you are concerned with justice and determining the fairness and legality of businesses that have matrixes. That can be done without allowing a member to engage in unfounded character assassination.

All the best, S

Perhaps you could reference some of this character assassination?

If you read some of the Caller Transcripts (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2693&page=1&pp=10) you can see why most people don't put a lot of faith in what Kim (or his representatives Jim and Berry) have said in the past.

Here are 3 issues from which I have serious problems regarding Kim's honesty.

1. It is a fact that he originally guarenteed 90 day cycle times. Do you dissagree?

2. It is a fact that he stated profits from the Belieze resort were being added to the CPA, when in fact there have been no profits and it will be some time before any profits are realized. Do you dissagree?

3. The outside revenue streams which have been used to foster growth in YMMSS are at Kim's discretion. It has been stated in conference calls that Kim does not have to do this. Now, you can say that you view Kim's choice to invest his 11% into outside investment for purposes of funding the CPA as a "noble" thing to do, but when this is used as a driving force to bring in new members and quell the misgivings of current members I view it slightly disengenious. What really bothers me about the outside revenue is Kim's unwillingness to explain where he is investing this money.

If he truely is able to find investment opportunities in which he can realize $300,000 a month and $16 to $19 million a week in a year why is he so unwilling to share this information with the membership? The returns he is quoting are far greater than what the average member could ever hope to realize using YMMSS's doubling aspect, I would bet that every member would jump on to those investments if Kim would allow them to. What is his reason for not allowing this?

I propose a few possible reasons.

A. They don't really exist.
B. They are other Ponzi like schemes.
C. They are some other illegal money trading opperation.
D. They are legitimate investment opportunties (however for this to be true I don't see how he could generate the kind of returns he is stating WITHOUT ANY RISK). And if they are legitimate investment opportunities I still don't see why he will not reveal what investment group he is investing with, more member based investment money certainly wouldn't hurt.
E. ?

For the record, although I may have been hard on Kim's business, I view him to be more like Charles Ponzi the person, and not so much Charles Ponzi the failed invesment opportunist.

My research of Matrices has given me a good understanding of Charles Ponzi. Although he was a con-man, he also had a good side. Many historians have wondered why Ponzi did not leave town when it became apparent that his trading stamp investment scheme was falling apart. Although technically he was always in debt, he could have skipped town with millions, yet he stayed to try and salvage his company using all of his money to pay outstanding investments. Many people defended him even after the fall because they believed in him, and he believed that he could revolutionize the banking industry (much like Kim and YMMSS revolutionizing the advertising business).

I have always believed that Kim probably did think he came upon a great idea, but it is a failed model. Time after time it has been shown that the matrix model does not work. I believe he is still trying to make it work, and the new changes are a result of that. But it is too late, too many members are hopelessly in over their heads, and have little chance to get a return on their investment. It is time for Kim to realize this as well and try to make amends with as many member as possible.

[Gringo]

The inconsistency is explained by conceding that in any practical economic sense it is impossible to double without hitting a limit. And at the same time asking you to concede that for a period of about two years YM managed to do just that.

Yes, YMMSS was able to double peoples money for a period of time. That is not the point here. No one every said that it was impossible to double funds for a limited amount of time. What makes the model a hoax is that it was represented as being able to be sustained for an UNlimited amount of time. Whenever a ponzi/matrix/doubler gathers a little momentum this will happen. The point is that they ALWAYS end as YMMSS has. Not because of servers, or downtime, but because of the math. There wasn't enough new money flowing in to pay off existing members. Further, this obvious and utterly predictable end was either known by Kim from day one, which makes him a scammer, or he was incompetent to the level of a child. Do you deny this? Why?

I would rather live with the inconsistency label than reject that significant history. What in the world does this mean? Clearly you have to admit that it is impossible to double without hitting a limit, yet you refuse to acknowledge that YMMSS was promoted as being able to do just that. The fact that they succeeded for 24 months doesn't change the point that everyone maintained not that they would do it just for 24 months, but generations. Do you deny this? Why?

It is at least theoretically possible that sustainability could have been achieved had income streams and retail ads fallen into place earlier. No, completely false. If you believe this, then you once again are trying to have it both ways. It is a practical, and theoretical IMPOSSIBILITY to sustain a perpetual doubling of an amount of money every 90 days. Once again income streams and retail ad income would eventually have to exceed the total income of the entire planet to achieve this. Do you deny this? Why?
As to our being a Ponzi I say no. Our wholesale ads are an actual and tangible product and they are about to increase in value just as Kim intended them to do.
As I explained before, and still await your response, YMMSS is beyond any doubt a Ponzi for the following 2 reasons:
1. The ponzi may or may not involve a product or service. If it does, then the fact that the product may be tangible, even valuable is irrelevent. What is significant is that in order to participate in the money making scheme the product is purchased at a grossly higher price than it is worth. The YMMSS auction proves EPCs are purchased for 100 times their real worth in order to have the chance to double.
2. The majority of the funds paid out come from new funds added by existing or reinvesting members.

Do you deny this? Why?

[ycchen]

I would guess I am about as close as you will get to honest and forthcoming answers about YMMSS. If you think they are evasive, untrue or inadequate that is your privilege. I think I have been completely candid. Indeed some of the things I have said here would probably be of interest to people in our own forums. I value and even love the Internet and I feel a forum is a huge opportunity for free exchange of information and ideas. My answers have been real I can assure you. That they do not satisfy is probably also an inevitable reality. Best, S

You honestly know very little about YMMSS after reading all your posts here on MatrixWatch. I learn virtually nothing except the rebuttle of what we have already know -- more new promises without any justification.

Our YMMSS members are eager to know the REAL information about YMMSS, and not empty promises that Kim fail to keep all the time. They want real answers. If you do not know the answers to any of our questions, perhaps you should either ask Kim to verify or someone else to give real answers. Many thanks.

Our previous experience is that most matrix/ponzi owners do not disclose basic information (e.g. outside income) is simply because they do not have any information at all. They have no outside income, and no outside partners, so they can't provide any.

If KIM want to prove that he is not just any matrix/ponzi owner, then he really needs to come up with real and honest answers. Throwing yet another new rule, new empty promises, new excuses, and new blame on the members will not help.

We are looking forward to your (or Kim) answer to Arzel's questions.

[MatrixWatch]

Arzel asks --

What is your purpose here in the capacity, which have designated for yourself?

My purpose is to challenge a false and even malicious portrait of Kim that was posted by one of your members. Throughout this thread I have described Kim as I know him -- as an honest, well-meaning and careful leader of a business I feel is innovative and significant.


WAIT, WAIT, WAIT... This is why you are here? To defend Kim's honor?

Oh brother... :rolleyes: :shake:

And all because of what "one" member posted on this forum? From what I see on YMMSS' horizon, you might be busy on quite a few forums in the near future.

And here I thought that you would be answering the mathematical, historical, and logical claims being made. Sorry, I was mistaken. You just came here to defend your friend's repuatation.

Okay, fine... I concede... Kim is a great guy with outstanding character. There. Done.

Now, let's get back to the discussion about how YMMSS will be soon dealing with the possibility of not being able to keep its promises to several people who have entrusted their money to its system. THAT is the real issue here, and it is likely the central reason behind any personal assaults against Kim's character.

Please, help us work through these issues. In many cases, people's savings and livelihood is at stake.

[Dreamer]

I dont know if i asked you yet, but this information should be available from any serious advertising company.

1. What is the total amount that was spent on EPCs?
2. How many advertising units were sold?
3. How many ads resulted in a sale from each level of advertising?

Now, if you claim that ymmss has a valuable product, even though on its own auction site, epcs sell at pennies on the dollar and are not traded or sold outside of the business, than these answers shouldnt be that difficult to find.

Can you provide them for me please?

Also, I would like to know

1. how much money was put into the system
2. how much money kim took out
3. and how much was actually withdrawn from the members and not reinvested.

And, since ymmss does keep accurate books (at least charles did I believe):

1. How many members have actually withdrawn from ymmss (since withdrawel will no longer be a possibilty soon) more than they took in? And, how much average profit did they make?
2. How many members have taken out exactly what they put in, and maybe just playing with the house's money?
3. How many members have lost money, and what is the average they lost?

One of your previous arguments was ymmss is not a ponzi because of all the outside income streams, yet you yourself admitted the total might be only $1million out of $93million "paid", discounting the fact that kim has taken out about $30million at least.

I think you shouldnt worry about our accurate character depictions of kim. You have yet to rebuke any of it effictevely. You should be more concerned with the behavior of your mods here and the threats your members are making against members here who are dissatisfied and want a place to be able to speak their mind without being censored.

[esto]

Hi again Arzel. I think you should probably be advising Kim! Actually in a sense you are. I do not think there is any objection on Kim's part to systemic and systematic criticism and your remarks seem to me on the mark. In the sense that Kim and others of us are really involved in something we feel is both new and "revolutionary". Please see answers below:

Perhaps you could reference some of this character assassination?

>>>> There is a thread here which contains notes by one of your members which suggests this person knows Kim and so forth. I think that is enough of a lead. I do not have the url. That was the precipitating cause of my concern.

1. It is a fact that he originally guarenteed 90 day cycle times. Do you dissagree?

>>>> Disagree. I think the inference is valid but Kim has used that as a goal not a guarantee. In terms of marketing that it was guaranteed is an assumption that was and could have been made from widespread use of it as a parameter. Actually originally (I joined in late 2003) I do not think 90 days was mentioned at all. Just that YM had never failed to pay.

2. It is a fact that he stated profits from the Belieze resort were being added to the CPA, when in fact there have been no profits and it will be some time before any profits are realized. Do you dissagree?

>>>> Would be, not were being. Makeover and additions will be completed over the summer and profits will start coming in this fall. I have no idea how large this stream will be. Not that large I would suppose.

... If he truely is able to find investment opportunities in which he can realize $300,000 a month and $16 to $19 million a week in a year why is he so unwilling to share this information with the membership? The returns he is quoting are far greater than what the average member could ever hope to realize using YMMSS's doubling aspect, I would bet that every member would jump on to those investments if Kim would allow them to. What is his reason for not allowing this?

>>>> I will have to dig out the note in our forum that makes a compelling case for not revealing these companies. Clearly competition factors are involved. Clearly there is a right for companies to do proprietary things and to have secrets.

A. They don't really exist.
B. They are other Ponzi like schemes.
C. They are some other illegal money trading opperation.
D. They are legitimate investment opportunties (however for this to be true I don't see how he could generate the kind of returns he is stating WITHOUT ANY RISK). And if they are legitimate investment opportunities I still don't see why he will not reveal what investment group he is investing with, more member based investment money certainly wouldn't hurt.
E ?

>>>> E: They are legit. They do not involve any risk because exit is built in to the initial arrangement. Wich is probably why we consider many more options than we accept. They are vetted by our lawyer and our CFO and if they are not viable they are not entered into. The process of building these relationship is long and arduous. If they are viable but stop performing we can exit. More than that I do not know.

I am glad to see what I believe is a moderation of a general view of Kim here. Ponzi has been tarred and feathered and you point out that he had some redeeming features. You say Kim is too late with the changes. That could be a valid point. Only time will tell. On the positive side: Our positive core membership that believes in the business plan. Our current and forthcoming addition of professional staffing. The launch of our retail ad site and the initiation of remunerative focus group activity using our core members -- the 13000 plus who have completed the Ad Survey -- to earn income individually and for the company. (I feel Ponzi's product was essentially useless, but that our positioning, personpower and vision are eminently sensible and that there is a world of difference.) I also think there is the sheer reality of shrinking returns on conventional modes of security such as pensions and various funds people use to secure their retirements. In a sense the entire home business phenomenon on the Web has to do with this reality. I feel these home busineses are largely a black hole where money goes. I feel our business makes sense and that is why our members are enthusiastic. It is the plan, not Kim, by and large that is the focus of bedrock enthusiasm. We have tons to do and the end is never assured. But I would say we've faced a challenge that would have sunk many companies and that our moves have been the right ones. We are stronger for what we have gone through and more of a team.

Cheers, S

[esto]

Hi Dreamer.

1. What is the total amount that was spent on EPCs?
>>>> We have the total amount paid in commissions which is equal on any processing day to roughly double the amount spent on EPCs -- understanding epcs as positions and also as Electronic Posting Credits. I have no figure but as we have paid comissions of over 90 million in the last year and a half or so, I would assume that that is a portion of the amount and that the amount within the system that has not yet been paid would add to that.

2. How many advertising units were sold?
>>>> Each $10 purchases one EPC. The total number for the period I am talking about would be in excess of 900,000

3. How many ads resulted in a sale from each level of advertising?
>>>> I assume you mean General, Silver and Gold. As you know many ads have been ads in name only. I think this might amount to more than half the ads. They are permissable but like some classifieds they are not meant to garner a response. Speaking for myself when Ihave put what I consider genuine ads in -- for products I sell or a wellness business I support -- my response has been good, better than other modes of advertising.

1. how much money was put into the system
>>>> It is equal to the daily commissions paid less 22 percent.

2. how much money kim took out
>>>> 22 percent.

3. and how much was actually withdrawn from the members and not reinvested.
>>>> No money has been invested or reinvested. I think the figure on people who have claimed bia website is less than 2 percent of our members.

1. How many members have actually withdrawn from ymmss (since withdrawel will no longer be a possibilty soon) more than they took in? And, how much average profit did they make?
>>>> Very few. In some cases the profit was 100 percent or more.

2. How many members have taken out exactly what they put in, and maybe just playing with the house's money?
>>>> Not sure and I know what playing with the house's money is but not how it applies here.

3. How many members have lost money, and what is the average they lost?
>>>> None to my knowledge.

If our members are making threats that is hardly a good use of energy. As to responding to character assassination of Kim, my response is that in our society a person is innocent until proven guilty. The charges made by your member are categorically denied by Kim and I trust his word over that of a person who can post with impunity anything he or she likes and get a rousing choruses of yeses to things that have no substance, merit or proof.

Best. S

[surfer]

1. It is a fact that he originally guarenteed 90 day cycle times. Do you dissagree?

>>>> Disagree. I think the inference is valid but Kim has used that as a goal not a guarantee. In terms of marketing that it was guaranteed is an assumption that was and could have been made from widespread use of it as a parameter. Actually originally (I joined in late 2003) I do not think 90 days was mentioned at all. Just that YM had never failed to pay.

What does the word ensure (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ensure) mean to you esto?

From 9/2/04 conference call notes:
Kim wanted to address the growing concern of the cycle times going up. The reason they are going up is due to processing time. They will continue trying to catch up over the weekend. Sometimes the website gets updated before the payments get out, so allow a little time for that to happen. Keep in mind that the person who is doing the payment processing isn�t the same person doing the updates to the database. Kim has a fund established to ensure that the cycle time remains at 90 days or less and if we need to use those funds we will. Right now we don�t need it; what we need is more hours in the day or the new website to be launched. Once that happens, then the time that it takes us to process things today (� of a day) will take less than an hour. The cycle time is going up because of the growth factor we are experiencing and since processing is so manual right now, it�s somewhat difficult to keep up with it. Please don�t get worried or impatient; all good things come to those who wait.


From 9/9/04 conference call notes:
Kim wanted to address the growing concern of the cycle times going up. They are currently at 90 days, but that doesn�t concern Kim at all. It will go down when other income sources feed it. Kim has a fund established to ensure that the cycle time remains at 90 days or less and if we need to use those funds we will. Right now we don�t need it; what we need is more hours in the day or the new website to be launched. Once that happens, then the time that it takes us to process things today (� of a day) will take less than an hour. If you are holding off making purchases hoping that the cycle time will go down, that�s not good�go ahead and make your purchases. Holding off purchases actually contributes to the cycle time going up, not down. Every day that you wait is a day of income that you are losing. If sales are greater than commissions, cycle times go down. If sales are less than commissions, cycle times go up.


It's such a shame that you come here under
the guise of answering genuine questions and
concerns when in truth you are only here to
do PR work for Kim Inman and YMMSS.

There was no inference. It was not a goal. It
was a guarantee.

As for one members allegations, I have just posted
a note saying that nothing has come of those and
they are complete hearsay at this point.

In my own research, I have found that Kim was
promoting a gifting program (http://web.archive.org/web/20020922080836/http://internet-marketing-review.net/), which is also illegal.

So despite one member's potentially false allegations,
the YMMSS ponzi is most definitely not Kim's only
illegal enterprise.

We deal mainly in facts here Esto. Since you insist on
denying and double talking your way around irrefutable
evidence, it is obvious that you do not.

[macs]

I copied this from the forum at YMMSS, sounds legit to me!!



JimH wrote:

One of the 5 key person's who are searching & interviewing for our serious position of Retail site manager just e-mailed me today, Wed., April 27.
This was because last week I informed Kim of my brother who owns a Headhunter (national high profile employment placement) Agency in Houston, TX.

My point is this is "another example" in how Kim is willing to spend more money searching until we have our special key Retail Advertising manager position filled.
The fact that Kim is most likely going to have to pay this kind of person (when we find him/her) "a mid 6 figure yearly income" only shows Kim is willing to do whatever it takes to make sure we have the absolute very best qualified person for our Retail Advertising Site, which is our most important new coming feature.

I bring this up to show that if YMMSS wasn't such a serious business really moving forward then Kim sure wouldn't be willing to spend this kind of money for just one person.

Kim also informed me just this past Sat. evening, April 23, that he is now hiring me to be an information advisor to both the staff & affiliates, in addition to having me already on the Retail Advertising Advisory board. He wouldn't also be putting me in this additional position if we weren't going forward, he would be cutting "down" expenses if anything.

Mark Boike & Dave Summitt had long careers in the Federal Gov't. with Kim in US Defense Dep't.
Mark & Dave also gave up their serious Gov't. careers (just as Kim did) to work with Kim for YMMSS, because they also believe it's the most unique concept of any business before in it's own very special ways. They wouldn't be staying here now if they thought they didn't have the most serious future here.

Mark just told me last weekend he's as confident as can be about the cycle times coming down when we were speaking about the 3 new income streams coming in mid May, & late May or early June, & with the coming new very needed features ASAP, too..
He said he's extremely happy because he works on & "knows" all that's coming. He hates the increasing cycles as much as I do, & anyone else.

My point for saying the above is that there really is a lot going on most don't see "yet." We will. It might sound like just words from me now to some, but I sure wouldn't waste my time here presently if I wasn't experiencing many positive occurences which are going on & will be coming to our commssions pool.
I'm as serious as a person can possibly be about the future & YMMSS is all I am involved in since late March, 2004, & is all I care about doing. That's how much I believe & committed I am to this.

AN IMPORTANT POINT
I spent over 2 years helping the SEC & IRS with with them coming to my own house for meetings inside my living room to bring down a large & very elaborate $85 Million scam that destroyed over 4,000 lives from 1998 to 2003.
This became a Federal RICO case with the US Attorney General's office, & other Fed Agencies on board as well.
Finally after many appearances with this ongoing court case we were able to have the clever con artist culprits put in Federal Prison just this past July 2004.
Kim & Mark know this story, & how much I despise all con artists. They wouldn't have me in any position close to them if they were doing something negative. But I've seen Kim do the most positive work I've ever seen in my life for people firsthand.
He is a "great man." I truly believe his greatness will be world known rapidly once we're back on track with our very much needed new features, etc.
I sure couldn't be wasting all my time if I didn't really believe all this. There's too much good happening that I've seen & we're "all" going to be a great part of it.

The reasons above are only "some of the many" reasons why I'm extremely confident.[/img]
_________________
Viper

[Arzel]

I copied this from the forum at YMMSS, sounds legit to me!!



JimH wrote:

One of the 5 key person's who are searching & interviewing for our serious position of Retail site manager just e-mailed me today, Wed., April 27.
This was because last week I informed Kim of my brother who owns a Headhunter (national high profile employment placement) Agency in Houston, TX.

My point is this is "another example" in how Kim is willing to spend more money searching until we have our special key Retail Advertising manager position filled.
The fact that Kim is most likely going to have to pay this kind of person (when we find him/her) "a mid 6 figure yearly income" only shows Kim is willing to do whatever it takes to make sure we have the absolute very best qualified person for our Retail Advertising Site, which is our most important new coming feature.

I bring this up to show that if YMMSS wasn't such a serious business really moving forward then Kim sure wouldn't be willing to spend this kind of money for just one person.

Kim also informed me just this past Sat. evening, April 23, that he is now hiring me to be an information advisor to both the staff & affiliates, in addition to having me already on the Retail Advertising Advisory board. He wouldn't also be putting me in this additional position if we weren't going forward, he would be cutting "down" expenses if anything.

Mark Boike & Dave Summitt had long careers in the Federal Gov't. with Kim in US Defense Dep't.
Mark & Dave also gave up their serious Gov't. careers (just as Kim did) to work with Kim for YMMSS, because they also believe it's the most unique concept of any business before in it's own very special ways. They wouldn't be staying here now if they thought they didn't have the most serious future here.

Mark just told me last weekend he's as confident as can be about the cycle times coming down when we were speaking about the 3 new income streams coming in mid May, & late May or early June, & with the coming new very needed features ASAP, too..
He said he's extremely happy because he works on & "knows" all that's coming. He hates the increasing cycles as much as I do, & anyone else.

My point for saying the above is that there really is a lot going on most don't see "yet." We will. It might sound like just words from me now to some, but I sure wouldn't waste my time here presently if I wasn't experiencing many positive occurences which are going on & will be coming to our commssions pool.
I'm as serious as a person can possibly be about the future & YMMSS is all I am involved in since late March, 2004, & is all I care about doing. That's how much I believe & committed I am to this.

AN IMPORTANT POINT
I spent over 2 years helping the SEC & IRS with with them coming to my own house for meetings inside my living room to bring down a large & very elaborate $85 Million scam that destroyed over 4,000 lives from 1998 to 2003.
This became a Federal RICO case with the US Attorney General's office, & other Fed Agencies on board as well.
Finally after many appearances with this ongoing court case we were able to have the clever con artist culprits put in Federal Prison just this past July 2004.
Kim & Mark know this story, & how much I despise all con artists. They wouldn't have me in any position close to them if they were doing something negative. But I've seen Kim do the most positive work I've ever seen in my life for people firsthand.
He is a "great man." I truly believe his greatness will be world known rapidly once we're back on track with our very much needed new features, etc.
I sure couldn't be wasting all my time if I didn't really believe all this. There's too much good happening that I've seen & we're "all" going to be a great part of it.

The reasons above are only "some of the many" reasons why I'm extremely confident.[/img]
_________________
Viper


I have read this before and I have a couple of questions.

If Mark worked for the Defense Department, what are his credentials which would lead anyone to believe that he is a master investor?

Mark stated that he also believed that cycle times would be decreasing this summer, since that did not happen why should anyone believe much else what he has to say?

If Kim had the use of a headhunter company, why did he choose an insider?

Could you provide, through Jim, a reference to this large scam that he is referring? I tried to read about it before, but was unable to find anything that matched what he described.

On a final note, just because someone works for the US Govt, it does not preclude them from being a con-man.

[esto]

What does the word ensure mean to you esto?

>>>> To see that something happens. The quotes from the minutes refer to '04. The problems we faced did not surface until O5 -- which means that whatever was in place in '04 was not available in '05

I am not here to defend myself. As I said I will answer questions. I was civil and even complimentary to you. I was not being insincere. I am sorry you are not willing to respect my answers and view me as doing pr which I take to mean damage control. The only damage control I seek to do is related to the damaging material regarding Kim that I have already referenced.

Best, S

[esto]

I have read this before and I have a couple of questions.

If Mark worked for the Defense Department, what are his credentials which would lead anyone to believe that he is a master investor?

>>>> I have no idea other than that he would appear to be competent in that area. My impression is of a competent and careful steward of our resources. Anyone with membership or access to YM can ask such questions directly.

Mark stated that he also believed that cycle times would be decreasing this summer, since that did not happen why should anyone believe much else what he has to say?
>>>> I am not aware that he said that. My impression is that all the leadership in YM assumed the ct was elongating and most certainly that the introduction of plans for an evolved YM would be based on that precise assumption.

If Kim had the use of a headhunter company, why did he choose an insider?
>>>> That is hardly an uncommon result. There was a process and it led to a person who happened to be a member. I am sure we had no idea of his substantial credentials and qualifications prior to the process.

Could you provide, through Jim, a reference to this large scam that he is referring?
>>>> I will check.

On a final note, just because someone works for the US Govt, it does not preclude them from being a con-man.

>>>> On that we are in complete agreement.

[surfer]

What does the word ensure mean to you esto?

>>>> To see that something happens. The quotes from the minutes refer to '04. The problems we faced did not surface until O5 -- which means that whatever was in place in '04 was not available in '05

That's funny, I missed the part of Kim Inman's
guarantee where he stated that it had an
expiration date. :rolleyes:

So what you are saying is that if Kim Inman
makes a promise to somebody on Monday he
should not be held accountable to keep it on
Tuesday if it's inconvenient for him? Is that
about right?

[swishnev]

Esto, do you still stand by YMMSS statement that a member, or former member of ymmss has never lost money on ymmss?

[swishnev]

Also Esto, if YMMSS is so concerned about people coming on here and giving wrong information, why aren't they using the same "zeal" to take care of all their "affilliates" who have 90 day cycle times stated in their ads? These ads are certainly false, yet YMMSS chooses to leave them up...Why is that I wonder??

[Dreamer]

Wow...I didnt even finish reading this thread...nobody has lost money? What about all the people that joined after 10/24 that havent cycled once? But, I see how you answered the other questions that you really dont want to answer.

I know percentages. I want dollar amounts. I'm not going to waste my time asking questions i know answers to.

[Dreamer]

Since you failed to answer this appropriately, I'm reposting it again. I dont care about percentages. I want dollar amounts. The percentages are well known, the dollar amounts are not.

I dont know if i asked you yet, but this information should be available from any serious advertising company.

1. What is the total amount that was spent on EPCs?
2. How many advertising units were sold?
3. How many ads resulted in a sale from each level of advertising?

Now, if you claim that ymmss has a valuable product, even though on its own auction site, epcs sell at pennies on the dollar and are not traded or sold outside of the business, than these answers shouldnt be that difficult to find.

Can you provide them for me please?

Also, I would like to know

1. how much money was put into the system
2. how much money kim took out
3. and how much was actually withdrawn from the members and not reinvested.

And, since ymmss does keep accurate books (at least charles did I believe):

1. How many members have actually withdrawn from ymmss (since withdrawel will no longer be a possibilty soon) more than they took in? And, how much average profit did they make?
2. How many members have taken out exactly what they put in, and maybe just playing with the house's money?
3. How many members have lost money, and what is the average they lost?

One of your previous arguments was ymmss is not a ponzi because of all the outside income streams, yet you yourself admitted the total might be only $1million out of $93million "paid", discounting the fact that kim has taken out about $30million at least.

I think you shouldnt worry about our accurate character depictions of kim. You have yet to rebuke any of it effictevely. You should be more concerned with the behavior of your mods here and the threats your members are making against members here who are dissatisfied and want a place to be able to speak their mind without being censored.

[Arzel]

Dreamer, I think Esto did answer most of those questions earlier today.

[esto]

When conditions change they change. It is not a lie to say something is in place and when it isn't that it isn't.

Do I still stand by the statement that no one in YM has lost money, yes, with this proviso. If I have put funds into YMMSS that have not cycled tjury could be said to be out. My assumption is I will get paid. To my knowledge everyone who has purchased epcs and cycled has been paid or else had the position roll over as their payment choice. The new system will ensure that payment continues.

Best, S

[Arzel]

When conditions change they change. It is not a lie to say something is in place and when it isn't that it isn't.

Do I still stand by the statement that no one in YM has lost money, yes, with this proviso. If I have put funds into YMMSS that have not cycled tjury could be said to be out. My assumption is I will get paid. To my knowledge everyone who has purchased epcs and cycled has been paid or else had the position roll over as their payment choice. The new system will ensure that payment continues.

Best, S

Esto, have you ever watched the sitcom Seinfield?

In an early episode of Seinfield, the next door neighbor, Kramer, was going to change his entire apartment. He was to build a bunch of levels, just like ancient egypt, with pillows everywhere. At least that was they way he explained it.

Jerry, bet Kramer that he would not be able to do it an year, much less the month that Kramer declared it would take, to which Kramer accepted the bet. A day later (few minutes in TV time) Kramers was asked how the levels where coming, to which Kramer declared he was no longer going to do it, that he had changed his mind.

Jerry declared that he was the winner of the bet, to which Kramer stated, the bet is off because I decided I didn't want the levels anymore. To which Jerry claimed, "But that was the bet! You were to make your aparetment levels in a year! If you don't do the levels, you lose the bet!" Kramer's response was "But I don't want the levels anymore, so the bet is off."

I think you can see where this is leading. YMMSS is just like Kramer, changing the rules when it benefits YMMSS, and disregarding anything previous as not applicable anymore.

[Leonidas]

lol i remember that one

L

[Gringo]

Esto,

Still awaiting your reply to:
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25267&postcount=58

[Dreamer]

Arzel,

No, he didn't. I was looking for facts and numbers not percentages...



Hi Dreamer.


1. What is the total amount that was spent on EPCs?
>>>> We have the total amount paid in commissions which is equal on any processing day to roughly double the amount spent on EPCs -- understanding epcs as positions and also as Electronic Posting Credits. I have no figure but as we have paid comissions of over 90 million in the last year and a half or so, I would assume that that is a portion of the amount and that the amount within the system that has not yet been paid would add to that.

It would have just been easeir to ask kim and get an answer like $125million, or whatever. Was a simple question.


2. How many advertising units were sold?
>>>> Each $10 purchases one EPC. The total number for the period I am talking about would be in excess of 900,000

Maybe I asked the question wrong? How many ads have been placed since the begininning? 900,000? Again, I can probably find out from eBay how many ads were places pretty quickly. I dont want to know how many $10 EPCs were purchased but how many ads were placed.


3. How many ads resulted in a sale from each level of advertising?
>>>> I assume you mean General, Silver and Gold. As you know many ads have been ads in name only. I think this might amount to more than half the ads. They are permissable but like some classifieds they are not meant to garner a response. Speaking for myself when Ihave put what I consider genuine ads in -- for products I sell or a wellness business I support -- my response has been good, better than other modes of advertising.

So, are you saying there is absolutely no success rate for advertsing? I've never said that people cant sell stuff on eBay. But, with your answer, there was what, about 1 ad that made a sale out of 900,000? Thats not a successful advertising company is it?


1. how much money was put into the system
>>>> It is equal to the daily commissions paid less 22 percent.

No its not. I want the real figure in dollars not percents.


2. how much money kim took out
>>>> 22 percent.

Dollar amount please.


3. and how much was actually withdrawn from the members and not reinvested.
>>>> No money has been invested or reinvested. I think the figure on people who have claimed bia website is less than 2 percent of our members.

Dollar amount please. Okay, you say only 2% of the $93million has been taken out by members, which is like $1.8 million. And kim has taken out $30million. So, the real amount of money that went into ymmss is $32million, of which kim has $30million and the members have the rest???


1. How many members have actually withdrawn from ymmss (since withdrawel will no longer be a possibilty soon) more than they took in? And, how much average profit did they make?
>>>> Very few. In some cases the profit was 100 percent or more.

So, a very few is like 5 - 10 people? 10 whole people in your estimation (it shouldnt even be an estimation - i thought you said you would try to get the answers for us) out of 25,000 actually seen a profit?


2. How many members have taken out exactly what they put in, and maybe just playing with the house's money?
>>>> Not sure and I know what playing with the house's money is but not how it applies here.

Playing with the profits, the money that isnt mine. If I put $1,000 into ymmss, and the first cycle I withdraw $1,015 and keep the rest in the system, I am playing with the houses money, not mine, since I have withdrawn my money.


3. How many members have lost money, and what is the average they lost?
>>>> None to my knowledge.

Everybody who has not cycled one time has lost money. Everybody who has not withdrawn at least the amount that they put in or more (#1 and #2) has lost money. By your own admission, maybe only 10 people have made a profit, so 24990 have lost money by your own numbers.


If our members are making threats that is hardly a good use of energy. As to responding to character assassination of Kim, my response is that in our society a person is innocent until proven guilty. The charges made by your member are categorically denied by Kim and I trust his word over that of a person who can post with impunity anything he or she likes and get a rousing choruses of yeses to things that have no substance, merit or proof.

Actually, nobody here threatened kim, but i guess that doesnt matter to you.

The problem with kim is, all the things we have said about him is looking at his character. He brought it upon himself. And, like any forum, they are our opinions based on all the info about him we know.

Guess what. MW is a forum for people to express their opinions, not a court of law.

[esto]

Esto,

Still awaiting your reply to:
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25267&postcount=58

Probably because there were no questions I did not respond. Best, S

[esto]

YMMSS is just like Kramer, changing the rules when it benefits YMMSS, and disregarding anything previous as not applicable anymore.

END QUOTE

This has been going around in my head today. Let's say we began our opportunity as a matrix and were told by a concerned attorney that that was not a good idea and so we took his advice and put away all the promotional material we had used and declared, henceforth we will not do that. We will however make good on our promise that no one will lose money and we will move the business to a platform that is squeaky clean.

From one point of view this could be seen as inconsistency. But if something is flawed or could be vastly better, is it a sin to make changes? If it was half the consulting businesses in the world would be out of business.

YM began with a specific reference to a matrix. Presumably if one is negative toward Matrixes one will be happy to see that model retired.

I think the irritiation at YM stems from the fact that while it began as it did it was and remains a brilliant business idea. An idea strong enough and enough at the right time to overcome many of the pitfalls that typically beset the operators of matrix programs.

I do not mind being damned either way because I am secure in my belief that it was and is the right decision to do the changes we will do in the remainder of this year. The more I hear our CFO and Global Marketing head the more I see that we have not merely a future, but a potentially explosive success.

In terms of dollars the initial three years of YM outstripped eBay's initial record and I think we are likely to reach our 100,000 membership of members earning $100K within a few years. It could be sooner.

I am sure there are tons of business stories based on false starts that turned out to be providential because in the cauldron of difficulty the right way forward was found.

As far as I am concerned Kramer has every right. He may lose the bet but he is not morally or legally culpable and he sleeps at night.

Cheers, S

[surfer]

Such a farce this is. :shake:

2. It is a fact that he stated profits from the Belieze resort were being added to the CPA, when in fact there have been no profits and it will be some time before any profits are realized. Do you dissagree?

>>>> Would be, not were being. Makeover and additions will be completed over the summer and profits will start coming in this fall. I have no idea how large this stream will be. Not that large I would suppose.


Esto, would this quote taken from the 3/17/05
conference call notes not lead people to
believe that there were currently profits being
put into the CPA from the Belize resort?

One example of such an investment is the resort in Belize, exclusive to YMMSS members, in which profits are directly fed into the commission’s payable account.

Or does this from the 4/14/05 conference call lead
people to believe that the resort was supplying
income to the CPA?
In addition to the investments income and the Belize resort income, another source of income to the commission’s payable account is the retail sales. 85% of all retail sales will directly feed the YMMSS account; the other 15% goes to the salesperson as a commission. Another source that will be coming on soon is the YMMSS Auction website (similar to Ebay).

Just one more acceptable deception I suppose. :rolleyes:

Kim only comes clean when pushed for facts on
06/02/05 conference call:
Q10: What is the weekly/monthly revenue for the Belize resort?
A10: For those who don’t know, we have a resort in Belize that is exclusive to YMMSS members where you can go for vacation. The link is at www.gooddiving.com and is just beautiful. This is an alternate income source that the profits from this will go directly into the CPA. Currently, it is just breaking even. I expect it to be breaking even until around the November 2005 time frame when we have all the construction projects completed.

[Arzel]

As far as I am concerned Kramer has every right. He may lose the bet but he is not morally or legally culpable and he sleeps at night.

Cheers, S

Ah yes, but Kramer, like YMMSS, doesn't admit to losing a bet. Rather, they say they no longer wish to agree to the bet, therefore they do not lose.

Kramer, and YMMSS, may feel they are not morally culpable, but in the eyes of those from which the guarentee "bet" was made, they are entirely liable.

I think the irritiation at YM stems from the fact that while it began as it did it was and remains a brilliant business idea. An idea strong enough and enough at the right time to overcome many of the pitfalls that typically beset the operators of matrix programs.

But YMMSS did not overcome the pitfalls of the matrix programs. Do you really believe the matrix model to be viable?


This has been going around in my head today. Let's say we began our opportunity as a matrix and were told by a concerned attorney that that was not a good idea and so we took his advice and put away all the promotional material we had used and declared, henceforth we will not do that. We will however make good on our promise that no one will lose money and we will move the business to a platform that is squeaky clean.


Fine, will you give those members that joined under a previous understanding the option to get out with their original purchases, specifially those that have cycled to put profits back into the system?

I still have problems with the new model, but (I believe) it is such a poor model plan, that if it were not for the current state of trapped membership, you would have an almost impossible task of recruiting new members, much less retaining your existing members. But if YMMSS were to allow existing members the option to opt out with their inital investment returned, and properly state on YMMSS promotional material that there is NO guarentee to have positive returns by using YMMSS advertising, I would drop my opposition to YMMSS.

A final condition would be for YMMSS to provide accurate or a least somewhat reliable statistics of expected weekly profits from a mature 320, and if YMMSS did not meet those expectation they again would be given the opportunity to opt out.

Do you think Kim would agree to something like this?

[Gringo]

Probably because there were no questions I did not respond. Best, S

Sorry. I have now edited it and posed 2 questions for you at the end of each of my points. I look forward to your answers.

[papabear]

[QUOTE=arzel]
1. It is a fact that he originally guarenteed 90 day cycle times. Do you dissagree?



>>>> Disagree. I think the inference is valid but Kim has used that as a goal not a guarantee. In terms of marketing that it was guaranteed is an assumption that was and could have been made from widespread use of it as a parameter. Actually originally (I joined in late 2003) I do not think 90 days was mentioned at all. Just that YM had never failed to pay.



Esto,

"The inference is valid"??? You are quite proficient at twisting words, but anyone who reads your posts objectively can see right through you. It is truly unfortunate that you have so much of yourself, your hopes, your commitment, and your reputation tied up in YMMSS that you cannot honestly answer direct questions.

You "do not think 90 days was mentioned at all"??? I joined YMMSS in the spring of '04, significantly after you did. I spoke to both you and Kim on the phone before I joined. You absolutely did know about the 90 days. I know beyond any doubt, as do you, that the official YMMSS website did "guarantee" that cycle times would never exceed 90 days. Based on your response to Arzel (and most of the rest of your responses as well) I stand as a witness that you cannot be trusted. In my eyes you are on Kim's level. No wonder you defend him so faithfully.

Let me share the words of another respected YMMSS affiliate, Gary Harvey. I emailed him in October '04, stating my concern over cycle times. Here's my question, followed by his response:

Me: "We were told the cycle times would never be greater than 90 days, but as things currently are, that isn’t quite true. I don’t want to post any negative stuff to the forum if I can help it. Any comments?"


Gary: "The 90 days g'tee used to be there but Kim removed it of late due to legal advice... since he cant control the economy.

Gary"

Esto, would you care to finally come clean on this one simple point, and thereby perhaps gain at least some credibility, or are you going to continue denying the facts?

[surfer]

Here is a page from July 16, 2004 (http://web.archive.org/web/20040716002534/http://www.ymmss.com/Ultimate.php)

A brief explanation of the YMMSS commission system

YMMSS is a way to DOUBLE YOUR MONEY in 3 months or less.

How? Whatever amount you spend on advertising to our paid safelist will get doubled in 2-3 months. (A safelist is a mailing list of people who have agreed to receive emails from each other.) In this case, all the members have PAID to belong. So your ads are read by the ideal target market ... which is people who have already bought online and are interested in quality business opportunities.

The PRODUCT that you're purchasing is "advertising to a high-quality paid safelist". Because it's a safelist, you have no risk of spam accusations when you mail your ad to this list.

The best thing is that whatever you spend on ads, your money is doubled in each cycle. What's a "cycle"? It's the time it takes for your name to climb from the bottom of the ladder to the top of the ladder which is when you get paid your commission. That ladder, by the way, is called a straight line matrix and when you purchase your first EPC (Email Posting Credit) you step onto the first rung of a rapidly moving ladder. Cycles take 60-90 days, and have been shorter.

If you put $10 in now, it will double to $20 in 3 months or less. That's a 100 percent profit in about 3 months. Your local bank or building society certainly can't beat that, can they?
That is essentially the guarantee that Esto
can't seem to remember anything about.

There was also a different guarantee if you
subscribed to a weekly subscription.
With YMMSS, you are guaranteed to make a profit

Double your money back guarantee

If you join our $10.00 a week or higher program and your commissions don't at least double your out-of-pocket expense at the end of 24 months, we will refund you double your total purchase amount.

Triple your money back guarantee

If you join our $10.00 a week or higher program and your commissions don't at least double your out-of-pocket expense at the end of 36 months, we will refund you triple your total purchase amount.

It really is hard to move forward with this
exercise if you intend to continue denying
well known facts Esto?

It is these facts coupled with the impossible
to sustain matrix/ponzi structure of YMMSS
that gives us cause to question everything
about YMMSS.

You completely dismiss Kim's broken promises
and guarantees as if they don't matter. Well,
it's quite obvious that it matters to a fair
amount of the people that were given these
promises.

If Kim had never made these promises and
guarantees, many people wouldn't have
overextended themselves like they have.

Yeah I know, no questions in my post so
you don't have to respond. :rolleyes:

I just find it very hard to believe that you
don't think Kim Inman had a moral obligation
to keep his word to thousands of people.

[MatrixWatch]

Arzel,


Actually, nobody here threatened kim, but i guess that doesnt matter to you.


I think that he is referring to a post that showed up in the middle of the night one evening, where a new member joined and posted a nasty thread about Kim and included his address (probably fake not a valid one anyway).

The post was quickly edited in the morning and the sensitive details were removed by the moderators. I'd say that our staff did more than other forums would have done in similar circumstances.

[ycchen]

Esto, please respond to Surfer and papabear's question about the 90 days garantee, thanks. See above.

Also, remember to address the issue of Ponzi by Gringo and Dreamer. Thanks.
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25267&postcount=58
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2979

[Dreamer]

I think that he is referring to a post that showed up in the middle of the night one evening, where a new member joined and posted a nasty thread about Kim and included his address (probably fake not a valid one anyway).

The post was quickly edited in the morning and the sensitive details were removed by the moderators. I'd say that our staff did more than other forums would have done in similar circumstances.

I got worried there that i was misunderstood. Perhaps your right, I did not catch that.

I know full well that MW will error on side to edit out posts so that there is no personal info invovled. I have used this to record addresses to a scam i was looking into knowing full well that it will be backed up and edited.

So, if that is what esto is refering to, thats disappointing. Heck, I've been on other forums and found WDs info. But, the mods here are excellent about removing such info.

[MatrixWatch]

Heck, I've been on other forums and found WDs info. But, the mods here are excellent about removing such info.

You have? Still? Feel free to PM me the URLs. :cool:

Yeah, the personal-information card is a cruel one indeed.

[esto]

Esto, would this quote taken from the 3/17/05
conference call notes not lead people to
believe that there were currently profits being
put into the CPA from the Belize resort?

>>>> Yes.

Or does this from the 4/14/05 conference call lead
people to believe that the resort was supplying
income to the CPA?

>>>> Yes.

Just one more acceptable deception I suppose. :rolleyes:

>>>> Acceptable deception. No. Outright deception is unacceptable. In both this case and the 90 day case people drew conclusions based on statements that were out there for all to see. In the case of the conference center-resort, I think it is acceptable to infer that it would be a source of profit. In the case of 90 days I think it was happening then and it stopped happening. So Gary's statement is correct. And it is also correct to say that regardless of explanations that may have been valid for delays and so forth that the 90 days was stated and then was not doable.

Kim only comes clean when pushed for facts on 06/02/05 conference call:

>>>> I suspect that had he been pushed for facts prior to then he would have explained that work needed to be done in Belize and that profits would not be in the offing until it was completed. And that if he had been pushed for facts on the 90 days when we all thought it was the outside parameter, he would have described it as an objective and not as something guaranteed.

[esto]

But YMMSS did not overcome the pitfalls of the matrix programs. Do you really believe the matrix model to be viable?

>>>> No.

Fine, will you give those members that joined under a previous understanding the option to get out with their original purchases, specifially those that have cycled to put profits back into the system?

>>>> That has been done and I have even paid positions that were due to cycle.

But if YMMSS were to allow existing members the option to opt out with their inital investment returned, and properly state on YMMSS promotional material that there is NO guarentee to have positive returns by using YMMSS advertising, I would drop my opposition to YMMSS.

>>>> We have been responsive as some members here can testify to those who want out. I see no difficulty with that quarantee. It is implicit and if it would make a difference I would urge Mike Hamilton to include the no guarantee caveat on our promo material and sites.

A final condition would be for YMMSS to provide accurate or a least somewhat reliable statistics of expected weekly profits from a mature 320, and if YMMSS did not meet those expectation they again would be given the opportunity to opt out.

Do you think Kim would agree to something like this?

>>>> My guess is he would say that the profits will vary and that members who are in the program when the new platform is operating can get paid until they are satisfied they have made a profit and then opt out by not reading ads anymore. But I cannot really answer for Kim on this.

[esto]

Yes, YMMSS was able to double peoples money for a period of time. That is not the point here. No one every said that it was impossible to double funds for a limited amount of time. What makes the model a hoax is that it was represented as being able to be sustained for an UNlimited amount of time. Whenever a ponzi/matrix/doubler gathers a little momentum this will happen. The point is that they ALWAYS end as YMMSS has. Not because of servers, or downtime, but because of the math. There wasn't enough new money flowing in to pay off existing members. Further, this obvious and utterly predictable end was either known by Kim from day one, which makes him a scammer, or he was incompetent to the level of a child. Do you deny this? Why?

>>>> Yes. I believe Kim would still argue that the present system is viable because of its ultimate dependence on two income rivers beyond member purchases.

What in the world does this mean? Clearly you have to admit that it is impossible to double without hitting a limit, yet you refuse to acknowledge that YMMSS was promoted as being able to do just that. The fact that they succeeded for 24 months doesn't change the point that everyone maintained not that they would do it just for 24 months, but generations. Do you deny this? Why?

>>>> No. Unquestionably people thought the present system would work for generations. Now people feel that system has undergone the necessary changes to move forward and be there for generations.

No, completely false. If you believe this, then you once again are trying to have it both ways. It is a practical, and theoretical IMPOSSIBILITY to sustain a perpetual doubling of an amount of money every 90 days. Once again income streams and retail ad income would eventually have to exceed the total income of the entire planet to achieve this. Do you deny this? Why?

>>>> I have mentioned that I believe Kim was initially aware and we all -- if we thought -- realized there were limits and that we would have to deal with them at some point. I do not know about exceeding the income of the planet. I do know that in the forthcoming system we will be viable as we are simply dividing and distributing the income that comes in week by week.

As I explained before, and still await your response, YMMSS is beyond any doubt a Ponzi for the following 2 reasons:
1. The ponzi may or may not involve a product or service. If it does, then the fact that the product may be tangible, even valuable is irrelevent. What is significant is that in order to participate in the money making scheme the product is purchased at a grossly higher price than it is worth. The YMMSS auction proves EPCs are purchased for 100 times their real worth in order to have the chance to double.
2. The majority of the funds paid out come from new funds added by existing or reinvesting members.

Do you deny this? Why?

>>>> No. EPCs have sold for almost nothing at the auction site and 2 is also correct. In the future EPCs will grow in real value as they will be cheaper than the rates we charge for space on our public ad site. While 2 will continue to be true for some time it will eventually be eclipsed by the other income rivers I have referred to.

[esto]

You "do not think 90 days was mentioned at all"??? I joined YMMSS in the spring of '04, significantly after you did. I spoke to both you and Kim on the phone before I joined. You absolutely did know about the 90 days.

>>>> Unquestionably. I was merely saying that when I joined that was not given as a reason. And I do not recall it being given around 2003-early '04.

Esto, would you care to finally come clean on this one simple point, and thereby perhaps gain at least some credibility, or are you going to continue denying the facts?

>>>> I have never denied that people joined based on the 90 day certainty. People did. The ct rose to three times 90 days. We have essentially admitted the problem and are fixing it. Garys statement is correct.

[esto]

It really is hard to move forward with this
exercise if you intend to continue denying
well known facts Esto?

>>>> I do not deny that marketing materials put out in the later half of 2004 pushed the 90 day and guarantee of profit.

[esto]

I got worried there that i was misunderstood. Perhaps your right, I did not catch that.

I know full well that MW will error on side to edit out posts so that there is no personal info invovled. I have used this to record addresses to a scam i was looking into knowing full well that it will be backed up and edited.

So, if that is what esto is refering to, thats disappointing. Heck, I've been on other forums and found WDs info. But, the mods here are excellent about removing such info.

If that thread has been removed I am most grateful. I would appreciate confirmation. I looked for it now and did not find it. It was not immediately deleted because there was an interval between its appearance and my effort here and it was still up when I protested it. I am glad if it has been removed.

Best, S

[swishnev]

Esto, what was the "breaking point(s)" that caused YMMSS to change it's business strategy over the last month?

[esto]

Esto, what was the "breaking point(s)" that caused YMMSS to change it's business strategy over the last month?

The perception of hurt felt by members who were caught in the vise of expanding cycle times. Best, S

[Salsa]

Esto, here are some fresh questions for you:

What provisions has Kim made for YMMSS/STA to continue beyond his life, or, for that matter, his whim?

Because the success of YMMSS/STA seems entirely dependent on Kim's well-being, how much Key Man Insurance (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=key+man+insurance) does Success Through Advertising LLC have on Kim?

Key man insurance is, of course, essential to any responsible company when the company's success is dependent on key persons. Is STA's current key man insurance adequate to cover the company's liabilities should Kim become unable to perform his duties?

Who is the key man insurance underwriter?

What other provisions have been made to sustain YMMSS/STA in the event that Kim is unable to perform his duties?

Is Success Through Advertising LLC a US Limited Liability Company or a Belizean Limited Life Company or something else?

If it is a US Limited Liability Company, in which state is it registered?

If it is a Belizean Limited Life Company, what is the duration in the life provision of its Memorandum of Association? (maximum permitted by law is 50 years?)

If neither, what is it?

In any case, what was its date of commencement?

Besides Kim, who are the other members of the LLC (either US or Belizean or ...)? This is important because a Belizean LLC, for example, is subject to dissolution upon the "bankruptcy, death, insanity, retirement, resignation, withdrawal, expulsion, termination, cessation or dissolution" of any member.

How many YMMSS affiliates are Belizean citizens?

Salsa
_____________

[esto]

Esto, here are some fresh questions for you:

What provisions has Kim made for YMMSS/STA to continue beyond his life, or, for that matter, his whim?
>>>> Hiring associates who could take the reins.

Because the success of YMMSS/STA seems entirely dependent on Kim's well-being, how much Key Man Insurance does Success Through Advertising LLC have on Kim?
>>>> I have no idea. I think he would argue that the people already in place are perfectly capable of carrying on if necessary.

Who is the key man insurance underwriter?
>>>> No idea. Do companies or their principals generally make such information available to the public?

What other provisions have been made to sustain YMMSS/STA in the event that Kim is unable to perform his duties?
>>>> I would say that as each day passes we are bringing in people who are showing incredible capability and that in the last several months we've moved to meing a member-driven company. This means that there may now be twenty or thirty key figures who are largely not staff who could step in. We ae taking steps now to ensure that Mark and Mike do a share of the weekly calls, as they did yesterday when Kim had other obligations.

Is Success Through Advertising LLC a US Limited Liability Company or a Belizean Limited Life Company or something else?
>>>> The company is registered in Belize.

If it is a US Limited Liability Company, in which state is it registered?
>>>> It isn't. See above.

If it is a Belizean Limited Life Company, what is the duration in the life provision of its Memorandum of Association? (maximum permitted by law is 50 years?)
>>>> I have no knowledge of what sorts of options there are for formation of companies in Belize. I doubt we would limit our longevity voluntarily.

If neither, what is it?
>>>> I will try to find an answer.

In any case, what was its date of commencement?
>>>>> Not sure.

Besides Kim, who are the other members of the LLC (either US or Belizean or ...)? This is important because a Belizean LLC, for example, is subject to dissolution upon the "bankruptcy, death, insanity, retirement, resignation, withdrawal, expulsion, termination, cessation or dissolution" of any member.
>>>> Not sure.

How many YMMSS affiliates are Belizean citizens?
>>>>I am under the impression that a Belizian citizen cannot be a YM affiliate.

All these are questions that can be put directly to Kim via our Forums and our weekly conference calls and online conferences.

Best, S

[ycchen]

[Gringo]As I explained before, and still await your response, YMMSS is beyond any doubt a Ponzi for the following 2 reasons:
1. The ponzi may or may not involve a product or service. If it does, then the fact that the product may be tangible, even valuable is irrelevent. What is significant is that in order to participate in the money making scheme the product is purchased at a grossly higher price than it is worth. The YMMSS auction proves EPCs are purchased for 100 times their real worth in order to have the chance to double.
2. The majority of the funds paid out come from new funds added by existing or reinvesting members.

Do you deny this? Why?

>>>> No. EPCs have sold for almost nothing at the auction site and 2 is also correct. In the future EPCs will grow in real value as they will be cheaper than the rates we charge for space on our public ad site. While 2 will continue to be true for some time it will eventually be eclipsed by the other income rivers I have referred to.
So, Esto admits that YMMSS is a ponzi because EPC is worthless and YMMSS is a money game among members. Thanks for your honesty, Esto.

The problem right now is that since Esto knows very little about YMMSS, and need to be reminded many times (by surfer) before he could recall the history of YMMSS, I am not confident if his words have any weight at all. :(

Esto, do you legally represent YMMSS? What is your true position in YMMSS? Thanks.

[Arzel]

How many YMMSS affiliates are Belizean citizens?
>>>>I am under the impression that a Belizian citizen cannot be a YM affiliate.

Best, S

Why would a Belizian citizen not be able to be a member?

If the reverse were true (YMMSS located in the US) would a US citizen not be able to be an affiliate?

This truely makes no sense to me.

[surfer]

All these are questions that can be put directly to Kim via our Forums and our weekly conference calls and online conferences.

Yes they can be.

However, in your opening remarks, you claimed that
you were here to answer our questions and that you
would "ferret" out answers you didn't know.

Has this changed?

Dealing with online conference calls also creates a
couple issues that would be an inconvenience for
both Matrix Watch members and YMMSS affiliates
and staff.

Do you think that Kim is going to dedicate an entire
conference call to dealing with the multitude of
questions we would have?

And don't you think that it is quite likely things would
eventually turn confrontational given our stance that
Kim has created an unsustainable system?

Is that something you want to subject YMMSS affiliates
to?

If you really have no intention of ferreting out answers
to our questions, simply say so and we can move on.

What does the LLC in Success Through Advertising LLC
stand for? It would be nice to have that clarified to
assist in our continuous investigation. Your mention
that Belize residents can not participate in YMMSS
leads me to believe that LLC stands for Limited Liability
Company, but you didn't exactly state that.

[Candyman]

Esto,

I have followed YMMSS since late 2003 since several friends of mine got caught up in the idea that they could achieve "financial freedom" by joining YMMSS and doubling their money every 60-90 days. I was deeply troubled by this program for the concerns listed on this site (i.e. Ponzi).

Fortunately one of my friends shared my concerns and had two professionals (an attorney and CPA) review the business model and in their professional opinion, YMMSS is a form of gambling. In fact, in most states in the US YMMSS would be classified as an illegal lottery (you can do your own research to confirm).

Since you have been surprisingly forthcoming with acknowledging the fact that the 90 day guarantee for doubling income did either exist at one point and/or at a minimum many affiliaties joined based on this "goal." It would appear to me that if affiliates relied on this premise of income doubling as their primary motivation for investing in YMMSS then YMMSS is guilty of perpetrating a fraudulent offer that was never realized.

So here are my questions:

1. Do you believe that in some (if not all) states in the US that members of YMMSS may be illegally participating in what would could by defined by law as a pyramid scheme or illegal lottery?

2. Has Kim's legal team reviewed the laws in all 50 states to determine the legality of YMMSS (both in its past and present forms of operation)?

3. My understanding is that YMMSS issues 1099's to its members. Is YMMSS sending the IRS and all US states these 1099's as well?

4. How would these 1099's report income? For example, if an associate makes a $320 EPC purchase and it cycles to $640, is it considered $640 in income or $320 since half of it is reinvested? Also, does the 1099 factor in the expense side of the initial purchase?

5. One of my points above discusses the potential liability YMMSS could face because many members could argue that they were induced to participate based on the 90 day "guarantee" and by subsequent dialogue directly with Kim and moderators like yourself. Is YMMSS willing to refund member's initial investment for those associates who joined under the premise that their EPC's would cycle every 90 days "as designed."

6. If YMMSS is not willing to offer refunds, how do you respond to those members who feel they were fraudulently induced based on the original business model? Especially since the original business model will be retired in the very near future, it appears there is merit in their feelings.

Thanks in advance for you responses.

[Dreamer]

Arzel,

I think that there is actually a law I thought I remember reading about belize residence cannot participate in a belize business, or something. If nobody can quote it, i'll see if I can dig it up tonight and post the info if I can find it. yeah, sounds silly.

Esto,

While I and others may call kim and you conmen, liars, thieves, scumbags, etc, those are personal opinions based on the facts that i see. Unfortunately, my opinions regarding kim has not changed since you came here, but I am more willing to forgive you cuz your responces here just do not come off as anything of any substance. Mostly fluff to try to avoid questions.

Now, I would say no offense, but I'm not sure if that is how you really are, or if the questions we are asking are really difficult. You seem to try to answer everybodys questions, so im just not sure why all the fluff. So, since I cannot get any answers out of you and since u r unable to ferrit out the answers as you said, I will stop trying to ask questions so that other people may have a chance of reading certain nonsence.

And, MW is pretty good about removing all personal info from these boards. Yeah, I may be more active sometimes than the mods, so I see alot more when people try to pitch their wonderful matrix sites, or personal info, and I would remove them if I could, but typically within a few hours they go away. And, if you ever see any personal info posted that isnt deleted, im sure u can msg any of the mods here to have them remove it. I have a sneaky suspecion that all the mods dont read all the threads all the time to find references.

And, even though my slight personal attack against you in this message is my opinion, i do value your input here and i hope you stay. I hope that some other members here can gain more from your involvement than i have. When you said that you would answer questions and if you didnt know the answers you would find out, i had hopes that maybe some of the info that we lack, like actual facts and figures, might finally be revealed. I guess I had too much faith in the ambassador to a faith based ponzi.

[esto]

Esto, do you legally represent YMMSS? What is your true position in YMMSS?
>>>> Not in the least. I do not represent YMMSS other than as an affiliate who seeks to abide by the terms of membership. I know and have met with most of the main people in YMMSS either face to face or online. I have moderated the various member discussion forums and now act in an advisory capacity to the mods with no role or title. I have never performed any paid services nor received payment for volunteer work. I think I am a respected member who is regarded as helpful and honest. I hope that's the case.

[esto]

Why would a Belizian citizen not be able to be a member?

If the reverse were true (YMMSS located in the US) would a US citizen not be able to be an affiliate?
>>>> I think this applies to Belize only and I have no idea why. It is something I heard our lawyer say ;ast year.

[esto]

... in your opening remarks, you claimed that
you were here to answer our questions and that you
would "ferret" out answers you didn't know.

Has this changed?
>>>> No. I was just indicating that members have the option of going directly to Kim for answers via our Forums.

Do you think that Kim is going to dedicate an entire
conference call to dealing with the multitude of
questions we would have?
>>>> He deals with the questions of YM members and guests.

And don't you think that it is quite likely things would
eventually turn confrontational given our stance that
Kim has created an unsustainable system?
>>>> The way we do this minimizes confronation. We take questions in our forums and submit them in advance. Many of them touch on issues that we have discussed.

Is that something you want to subject YMMSS affiliates to?
>>>> Our affiliates include people who are critical of YMMSS. Kim is subjected to critical questions all the time.

What does the LLC in Success Through Advertising LLC
stand for? It would be nice to have that clarified to
assist in our continuous investigation. Your mention
that Belize residents can not participate in YMMSS
leads me to believe that LLC stands for Limited Liability
Company, but you didn't exactly state that.
>>>> I must assume that LLC means that.

[swishnev]

esto, to my question: Originally Posted by swishnev
Esto, what was the "breaking point(s)" that caused YMMSS to change it's business strategy over the last month?

You said:
The perception of hurt felt by members who were caught in the vise of expanding cycle times. Best, S

So the change in business strategy had nothing to do with actual business, but had to do with members perceptions instead? To say the "breaking point" had to do with perception and not an actual thing, such as lack of incoming funds", I find hard to believe. So could you explain that for me?

[swishnev]

i've read a thread on here that links to a reason exactly why YMMSS is located in Belize. I've read the web page and it seems to be very accurate, could someone find or remember where this link is or was in here?

[esto]

Hi Candyman]

1. Do you believe that in some (if not all) states in the US that members of YMMSS may be illegally participating in what would could by defined by law as a pyramid scheme or illegal lottery?
>>>> No, I believe YM cannot be described this way.

2. Has Kim's legal team reviewed the laws in all 50 states to determine the legality of YMMSS (both in its past and present forms of operation)?
>>>> Yes.

3. My understanding is that YMMSS issues 1099's to its members. Is YMMSS sending the IRS and all US states these 1099's as well?
>>>> I think these forms get sent to earners and then reported to the IRS by people who have earned over a certain amount.

4. How would these 1099's report income? For example, if an associate makes a $320 EPC purchase and it cycles to $640, is it considered $640 in income or $320 since half of it is reinvested? Also, does the 1099 factor in the expense side of the initial purchase?
>>>> The 1099s reports only income received -- paid out. Not recycled positions.

5. One of my points above discusses the potential liability YMMSS could face because many members could argue that they were induced to participate based on the 90 day "guarantee" and by subsequent dialogue directly with Kim and moderators like yourself. Is YMMSS willing to refund member's initial investment for those associates who joined under the premise that their EPC's would cycle every 90 days "as designed."
>>>> It has done so in the case of a small number of members who have made a request to leave. I have helped members of this forum leave YM and facilitated their refunds. YM has no desire to keep members who do not want to become a proactive part of our online advertising business. We are for real and we are serious.

6. If YMMSS is not willing to offer refunds, how do you respond to those members who feel they were fraudulently induced based on the original business model? Especially since the original business model will be retired in the very near future, it appears there is merit in their feelings.
>>>> Most members agree with Kim, myself and others that people were hurting under the current system because of the elongation of cycle times. Most are happy with the changes as they come to understand them. I hope it is the very near future. :)

[esto]

I guess I had too much faith in the ambassador to a faith based ponzi.
>>>> Here is my position on ferreting out information. I will do so if someone will be good enough to identify what is fluff or better yet to simply state in a succinct way what questions have not been answered. My answers may not satisfy. That's OK. Help me out though. I will personally pursue any civil question regarding YMMSS. By civil I mean one in which the pejoratives are not present.

[Candyman]

Esto,

You state that YMMSS's attorney's have reviewed all of the statutes in the 50 states and feel that YMMSS is completely legal in all of them. The attorney and CPA that I referenced in a previous post believe that in the state of Texas YMMSS would be classified as an illegal lottery and that Texas residents would be breaking the law by participating and/or recruiting members for YMMSS.

Questions about 1099 forms: Why would YMMSS produce 1099 forms based on cash payments that are made to members? If YMMSS is an advertising business as you describe, why wouldn't EPC purchases be considered expenses and commissions be considered revenue with the difference between two being income? If a member invests an original amount of $3200 in EPCs but continues to reinvest the commissions, then by your method of distributing 1099's, YMMSS would be counting reinvested money as income. How do you justify this approach?

Are you stating explicitly that any member who is disatisfied with their original YMMSS investment, they can receive a full refund?

Thanks again for your responses.

[swishnev]

esto, you didn't answer my question, not sure if you missed it, please go to page 11

[surfer]

Swishnev, it would be easier on Esto if you either
restated your question or provided a direct link
to it instead of having him scroll through all posts
on a certain page. Is the follow up question
below the one you were referring to?

I'll dig up the answer to the question you asked
right after that about why be located in Belize.
Probably some time tonight.

esto, to my question: Originally Posted by swishnev
Esto, what was the "breaking point(s)" that caused YMMSS to change it's business strategy over the last month?

You said:
The perception of hurt felt by members who were caught in the vise of expanding cycle times. Best, S

So the change in business strategy had nothing to do with actual business, but had to do with members perceptions instead? To say the "breaking point" had to do with perception and not an actual thing, such as lack of incoming funds", I find hard to believe. So could you explain that for me?

[swishnev]

surfer, i'm sorry i don't know how to use the quote thing correctly. my question is a follow up to his answer: So the change in business strategy had nothing to do with actual business, but had to do with members perceptions instead? To say the "breaking point" had to do with perception and not an actual thing, such as lack of incoming funds", I find hard to believe. So could you explain that for me?

[drzod]

Esto, you wrote: "Most members agree with Kim, myself and others that people were hurting under the current system because of the elongation of cycle times. Most are happy with the changes as they come to understand them. I hope it is the very near future."

Has YMMSS conduced a poll of members to see how many of them really understand the new structure?

As you can see in the threads on this forum, members here have varying opinions.

I can only imagine that the YMMSS membership has even more of a diverse opinion concerning the changes.

Can a example be provided that demonstrates the differences between the old and the new process that uses actual dollars?

I have seen examples presented on this forum (by MW members), but I would love for you to provide an actual example here to demonstrate how members are happy with the changes as they understand them.

I understand that certain assumptions will have to be made, but real life example would go a long way and clear things up here and at YMMSS.

[Salsa]

What provisions has Kim made for YMMSS/STA to continue beyond his life, or, for that matter, his whim?
>>>> Hiring associates who could take the reins.

Because the success of YMMSS/STA seems entirely dependent on Kim's well-being, how much Key Man Insurance does Success Through Advertising LLC have on Kim?
>>>> I have no idea. I think he would argue that the people already in place are perfectly capable of carrying on if necessary.
Who are the associates who Kim has made privy to all of his secret knowledge to the extent that he is no longer even a key man in the company? By saying that Kim has people in place who are "perfectly capable of carrying on if necessary," are you saying that if Kim were unable to perform his duties that it would cause no financial hardship on YMMSS?

Who is the key man insurance underwriter?
>>>> No idea. Do companies or their principals generally make such information available to the public?
Only if they care to establish confidence in those who have or may consider having a vested interest in the company's success.

What other provisions have been made to sustain YMMSS/STA in the event that Kim is unable to perform his duties?
>>>> I would say that as each day passes we are bringing in people who are showing incredible capability and that in the last several months we've moved to meing a member-driven company. This means that there may now be twenty or thirty key figures who are largely not staff who could step in. We ae taking steps now to ensure that Mark and Mike do a share of the weekly calls, as they did yesterday when Kim had other obligations.
Read the threads here and you will see where conference call stand-ins for Kim have been quoted by MW members, and YM defenders have said that those stand-ins weren't Kim and that only what Kim says counts. Of course, the same thing could be said of what you say here, as you've told us already that you are not speaking here in any official capacity for YMMSS--and from your answers here it is clear that you know (or are willing to reveal) very little about YMMSS. So that we might get to someone with the facts, is there a page somewhere where interested parties can see an overview of the YMMSS/STA staff and the scope of their individual powers and responsibilities? Just something simple, like the info you find on the masthead of every magazine published, would be a good start.

Is Success Through Advertising LLC a US Limited Liability Company or a Belizean Limited Life Company or something else?
>>>> The company is registered in Belize.

If it is a Belizean Limited Life Company, what is the duration in the life provision of its Memorandum of Association? (maximum permitted by law is 50 years?)
>>>> I have no knowledge of what sorts of options there are for formation of companies in Belize. I doubt we would limit our longevity voluntarily.

If neither, what is it?
>>>> I will try to find an answer.

In any case, what was its date of commencement?
>>>>> Not sure.

Besides Kim, who are the other members of the LLC (either US or Belizean or ...)? This is important because a Belizean LLC, for example, is subject to dissolution upon the "bankruptcy, death, insanity, retirement, resignation, withdrawal, expulsion, termination, cessation or dissolution" of any member.
>>>> Not sure.

How many YMMSS affiliates are Belizean citizens?
>>>>I am under the impression that a Belizian citizen cannot be a YM affiliate.
I just wondered about this because I had seen mentioned on the YMForums that there are Belizean affiliates. It could have simply been more bad YMForum information, however, but I have also never seen a disclaimer published by YMMSS stating that Belizeans may not join. (Someone needs to get those lawyers on the ball!)

All these are questions that can be put directly to Kim via our Forums...
I have seen most of these questions posted on the public YM Forums, and they were almost immediately deleted without answer.

...and our weekly conference calls and online conferences.
You said in your initial post of this thread:
My purpose in starting this thread is to offer any member of Matrix Watch answers to any questions they may have regarding YM or Success Through Advertising. If I do not have an answer Iwill do my best to ferret it out.
It is you, esto, who volunteered to ferret out the answers to our questions. To me, the YMMSS conference calls seem simply to be a bamboozle prone (and fulfilled) format for disseminating information.

And rather than asking us to restate our questions that we don't think were adequately answered, why not start by simply searching this thread for all of the cases where you answered with "I don't know," "I'm not sure," "I can only guess," "I have no idea," etc. Then "ferret out" the answers. That should keep you true to your word and busy for a good long while.

In that first post, you also said :
I fully expect that unless Matrix Watch is simply obsessed with trashing YM that I will be able to convince at least a few that we are a new business model that is moving rapidly away from the world of bizopps to becoming a new model for online advertising.
I think that serious Matrix Watch members have no interest in trashing YMMSS for its own sake. All we want is the truth. Our only interest here is to simply identify the nature of various matrix schemes and to help their victims when appropriate. If YMMSS is trash, it's not because we made it that way, it's simply because that's what it is!

Others here may think me foolish for this, esto, but since my first knowledge of YMMSS I've taken you to be sincere in your confidence that YMMSS is a good thing. I'm afraid, however, that this thread has so far served only to increase my own concerns about YMMSS and raise doubts about your sincerity. After reading and rereading it, I found only one question where you knew and gave a straight answer--and that was a very simple one of mine about whether YMMSS is a US or Belizean LLC. But even on that one, you later said that you didn't know what the LLC stands for. (Actually you "assumed" that it stands for Limited Liability Company, but if STA is registered in Belize, you would be wrong. Belize does not have Limited Liability Companies.) So you don't even know the full legal name of STA?! The good news is that this thread may have given you the opportunity to do some soul searching that you might not have otherwise done. I hope that you will continue to weigh the circumstances that you are in with YMMSS and to perhaps one day join our efforts here at Matrix Watch. I'm sure you know, however, that it is much more difficult to regain grace than it is to fall from it.

Salsa
_____________

[surfer]

After reading and rereading it, I found only one question where you knew and gave a straight answer--and that was a very simple one of mine about whether YMMSS is a US or Belizean LLC. But even on that one, you later said that you didn't know what the LLC stands for. (Actually you "assumed" that it stands for Limited Liability Company, but if STA is registered in Belize, you would be wrong. Belize does not have Limited Liability Companies.) So you don't even know the full legal name of STA?!

Salsa, I think I'm going to have to take at
least some of the blame for that one and give
Esto's brain and eyes a pass. ;)

I had a typo where I meant to say that because
he said that YMMSS was registered in Belize and
that Belizean residents weren't allowed to join, it
must be a Limited Life Company. I have little doubt
that in this instance his thoughts simply followed
along and he didn't catch my typo. :)

My bad. But you are right in that there should be
a highly visible disclaimer mentioning that residents
of Belize can't join. As it stands now, the drop
down menu on the join page does include Belize.

[esto]

esto, to my question: Originally Posted by swishnev
Esto, what was the "breaking point(s)" that caused YMMSS to change it's business strategy over the last month?

You said:
The perception of hurt felt by members who were caught in the vise of expanding cycle times. Best, S

So the change in business strategy had nothing to do with actual business, but had to do with members perceptions instead? To say the "breaking point" had to do with perception and not an actual thing, such as lack of incoming funds", I find hard to believe. So could you explain that for me?


Sorry I did miss this. The question had to do with a "breaking point" which I take to mean an emotional trigger. I think this is an accurate answer to the question as I understood it.

I think that perception precipitated a long period of work that most of us were unaware of, though some of the input came from at least one member -- the matter of weekly payments.

I think once this process was underway and once the Pay It Forward effort was discernable as inadequate to turn things around in any reasonable time that the way was clear for a radical change and the change went beyond what any of us guessed or thought of.

I also think that Mike Hamilton's coming has influenced the nderstanding of who we are and where we are going.

To summarize I do think the trigger was what I said. I do think once an alternative was seriously considered we were free to look with no denial at the alternative of doing little or nothing and see that was a non-choice.

However it's understood I do not think failure of the business and desperation were the causes. Our business plan has always assumed three income rivers. They did not flow enough to rescue us from the hands of Murphy. You are free to see that as a rationalization. I don't. But then again I do not think it is a huge issue.

Best, S

[esto]

Has YMMSS conduced a poll of members to see how many of them really understand the new structure?
>>>> We could put a poll in our Forums but I would say our forum members are definitely coming to understand it and that the concensus is that it as a great move.

Can a example be provided that demonstrates the differences between the old and the new process that uses actual dollars?
>>>> In terms of pay it has been suggested there is really no difference. Suppose I have a $320 position on which I take a $320 payment after 270 days. That is around 39 weeks. Divide $320 by 39. That is the level of pay I would need to get the same amount under the new system. The hope of course is that participation will be stimulated by the change and by weekly pay and that our other income rivers will start to flow in ever increasing amounts. Under those circumstances a $320 position would pay in 13 weeks what it would have paid had $120 been paid following a cycle.
Clearly no actual example can be given until we have total credits, total net income for a week and a division of individual credits into that income.

[esto]

Who are the associates who Kim has made privy to all of his secret knowledge to the extent that he is no longer even a key man in the company? By saying that Kim has people in place who are "perfectly capable of carrying on if necessary," are you saying that if Kim were unable to perform his duties that it would cause no financial hardship on YMMSS?
>>>> I am answering your question -- you want to know if the company is in good hands and does not require Kim to go on. Kim intends to be with the company through his own life. My answer is that as people come on board his capabilities are supplemented and affiliates can be assured of continuation.


So that we might get to someone with the facts, is there a page somewhere where interested parties can see an overview of the YMMSS/STA staff and the scope of their individual powers and responsibilities? Just something simple, like the info you find on the masthead of every magazine published, would be a good start.
>>>>I have edited a number of magazines over the years and none are in the habit of including even abbreviated CV along with their masthead listings. I am sure as we move to new and better and more comprehensive company sites we will have exactly what you are asking for.

[Salsa]

Who are the associates who Kim has made privy to all of his secret knowledge to the extent that he is no longer even a key man in the company? By saying that Kim has people in place who are "perfectly capable of carrying on if necessary," are you saying that if Kim were unable to perform his duties that it would cause no financial hardship on YMMSS?
>>>> I am answering your question -- you want to know if the company is in good hands and does not require Kim to go on. Kim intends to be with the company through his own life. My answer is that as people come on board his capabilities are supplemented and affiliates can be assured of continuation.Kim's intentions aside, accidents do happen--or he may have a change of heart--and we all know, absolutely, that he is prone to those. In any case, you seem to be saying that STA has no key man insurance on Kim (the original question), or if it does, you don't know about it. Right?

So that we might get to someone with the facts, is there a page somewhere where interested parties can see an overview of the YMMSS/STA staff and the scope of their individual powers and responsibilities? Just something simple, like the info you find on the masthead of every magazine published, would be a good start.
>>>>I have edited a number of magazines over the years and none are in the habit of including even abbreviated CV along with their masthead listings. I am sure as we move to new and better and more comprehensive company sites we will have exactly what you are asking for.
I wasn't asking for the curriculum vitae of individuals responsible for YMMSS's performance. That would be nice. It would also be something that I would require from any company that I would become invested in--or promote--but far more than I would expect from STA/YMMSS. My question was clear: "Is there a page somewhere...." As a magazine editor, you had to know exactly what I was asking when I said, "like the info you find on the masthead of every magazine published." Names, titles, responsibilities, contact information.

If there is no such page, why not simply say that there is no such page?

While you appear to be an impressively fast typist, esto, reading you reminds me of reading Immanuel Kant and the way he would spend pages of circumlocutious verbiage in order to obscure the fact that he was simply saying, "The cat is on the mat."

Salsa
___________

[Arzel]

However it's understood I do not think failure of the business and desperation were the causes. Our business plan has always assumed three income rivers. They did not flow enough to rescue us from the hands of Murphy. You are free to see that as a rationalization. I don't. But then again I do not think it is a huge issue.

Best, S

I wish people would stop blaming Murphy for the failure of the matrix model. No amount of outside revenue could ever solve the problem regarding doubling. The same problem will plague the new system, in that the average share value will continue to drop, even with outside revenue. Since outside revenue cannot double infinately, but the number of positions to which shares will be attributed have no cap, they will dilute the overall amount available to the CPA.

Esto,

Why do you fail to believe this logic? I realize math is not your strong suit, but can you not see that for this system to be viable their will have to be some cap on either positions (shares) available, or time limit to which positions will be able to pay?

Yet tonight, as I listen to the conference call from Thursday, Mark and Mike still state there will be no caps, other than a limit of 1% maximum for one investor.

BTW, Mark and Mike should have been doing the calls a long time ago, they are far and away much more convincing when explaining the new business plan and even the ridiculous $19 million a week to be coming in, than Kim ever was. I also love the new term Acelerator Table, as if the new system is someone going to be faster than the old failed system. lol

[speedracer]

I am a newbie around here and have been a member of YMMSS since April of 2004. Yes I have made quite a bit of money in YMMSS. However I am not proud of this by any means. After watching the excuses and changes made to this program over the last 8 months, I can honestly say this so called business is going nowhere. My heart goes out to the people who joined YMMSS recently and can only hope that one day in the near future justice will be served! I hope that I am wrong, however at this point it looks like everyone on this sight has been correct with their predictions. I bought into this program under the impression that Kim was making intelligent investments with the money being brought into YMMSS. Obviously I was wrong!!! I have already paid back every NEW member who I personally brought into YMMSS with the money that I made, seeing that they will never have the opportunity to cycle. I know I can’t help everyone involved, however at least I can sleep at night now. Unfortunately they are thousands of other members who may never recover their money. I can only see sad times ahead for many YMMSSers. With sincere regrets, Speedracer.

[Gringo]

Esto,Why do you fail to believe this logic? I realize math is not your strong suit, but can you not see that for this system to be viable their will have to be some cap on either positions (shares) available, or time limit to which positions will be able to pay?

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Stephen's mind set and belief system aren't about to be affected by historical facts, logic, math, and rational conclusions. Like the poor soul at the bottom that doesn't have a clue to the inner workings of YMMSS but has fallen under the spell of the group, Esto at the top, even with all he knows, remains immune to the truth. At least I'll give him credit for responding, whereas Alan and the others wouldn't even engage. It's just that he will believe what he wants to believe despite the facts. Convoluted, evasive, and inconsistant answers is what his defense mechanism is.

[Dreamer]

http://www.belizelaw.org/lawadmin/PDF%20files/cap270.pdf - Page 18 of 146:

Requirements of International Business Companies:

5.-(1) For purposes of this Act, an International Business Company is a company that does not-

(a) carry on business with persons resident in Belize;
(b) own an interest in real property situate in Belize, other than a lease referred to in paragraph (e) of subsection (2);
(g) carry on collective investment schemes, unless it is licensed

(2) For purposes of paragraph (a) of susection (1), an International Business Company shall not be treated as carrying on business with persons resident in Belize by reason only that-

(b) it makes or maintains professional contact with solicitors, barristers, accountants, bookkeepers, trust companies, administration companies, investment advisers or other similar persons carrying on business within Belize.

(e) it holds a lease of property for use as an office from which to communicate with members or where books and records of the company are prepared and maintained.

***

I guess owning a resort in Belize is a good enough office space? That seems to contridict it. I'm sure they have similiar zoning laws in Belize, and I know in the states that if you want a retail location, a resort, or anything like that, that is zoned differently than an office location.

Even if he claimed that the resort serves as his office location, he would have to fire all the staff members because he cannot do business with them.

So, how is kim able to own a resort there?


investing: the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit



"collective investment scheme" means a scheme carried on by a company, a partnership or a unit trust that issues equity interests, the purpose or effect of which is the pooling of investor funds with the object of spreading investment risks and enabling investors in the scheme to receive profitis or grains from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of investments, provided that the pooling of funds by bnaks and insurance companies shall not be deemed to be within this definition.

This actually kind of describes the profit sharing that kim wants to do now. Now, i might be wrong on this point, but it sounds like it to me.

***

I've asked numerious times, in what field does ur attorney specialize. I would assume that a laywer in Belize is mostly intrested in keeping your business legal in Belize law. When you say your lawyer looked at all the laws of all the US states, i really doubt that because lawyers specialize in a certain branch of law. International Law? Or, did you actually find a securities and fraud lawyer. Even so, for them to look at all the laws on all the books...i dont think so.

***

If anybody wants to ask the Belize govt themselves questions, here is the info. I might be emailing them a couple of times.

http://www.belize.gov.bz/laws_of_belize.html
We are available to answer any queries at parliament@btl.net

***

Esto originally responded to this, but I've edited it a few times so I am reposting it. Sorry for the double post.

Esto, can you find out if kim owns the property, and how he is able to own the property when it goes against belize laws? And, can you find out how come your lawyer didn' stop him from purchasing the property if it is breaking the law?

And, can you find out what area of law your lawyer specializes in?

[esto]

Kim's intentions aside, accidents do happen--or he may have a change of heart--and we all know, absolutely, that he is prone to those. In any case, you seem to be saying that STA has no key man insurance on Kim (the original question), or if it does, you don't know about it. Right?
>>>> No but I will check. I rather suspect the answer will be yes though it may not have the same description -- key man.

If there is no such page, why not simply say that there is no such page?
>>>> There isn't to my knowledge as sites have not changed since Mike and Mark came on. I am sure there will be.

While you appear to be an impressively fast typist, esto, reading you reminds me of reading Immanuel Kant and the way he would spend pages of circumlocutious verbiage in order to obscure the fact that he was simply saying, "The cat is on the mat."
>>>> This is not a question but I am glad to intuit that we each have separate lives. I agree Kant is tendentious. I incline to 14 line sonnets, Nietzsche aphorisms, save for about one third of them which are impossible, and minimalism in most things.

[esto]

I wish people would stop blaming Murphy for the failure of the matrix model. No amount of outside revenue could ever solve the problem regarding doubling. The same problem will plague the new system, in that the average share value will continue to drop, even with outside revenue. Since outside revenue cannot double infinately, but the number of positions to which shares will be attributed have no cap, they will dilute the overall amount available to the CPA.

Esto,

Why do you fail to believe this logic?
>>>> The new system makes no impossible promises. It states no income expectation. It says you will have a share of weekly income. Money in and money out. A one percent limit on what anyone could draw seems to me a current way of saying we are not going to let anyone take over.


I realize math is not your strong suit, but can you not see that for this system to be viable their will have to be some cap on either positions (shares) available, or time limit to which positions will be able to pay?
>>>> If any cap is needed I am sure it will be applied. We are for sustainability, not unrealistic promises.

[esto]

http://www.belizelaw.org/lawadmin/PDF%20files/cap270.pdf - Page 18 of 146:

Requirements of International Business Companies:

5.-(1) For purposes of this Act, an International Business Company is a company that does not-

(a) carry on business with persons resident in Belize;
(b) own an interest in real property situate in Belize, other than a lease referred to in paragraph (e) of subsection (2);

(2) For purposes of paragraph (a) of susection (1), an International Business Company shall not be treated as carrying on business with persons resident in Belize by reason only that-

(e) it holds a lease of property for use as an office from which to communicate with members or where books and records of the company are prepared and maintained.

***

I guess owning a resort in Belize is a good enough office space? That seems to contridict it. I'm sure they have similiar zoning laws in Belize, and I know in the states that if you want a retail location, a resort, or anything like that, that is zoned differently than an office location.

So, how is kim able to own a resort there?

Hi.

The resort is on an island off of Belize and I have no idea what the zoning is, but I must assume the purchase would not go through if it did not conform on all sides to the law. There would be no reason for it not to. Our attorney lives in Belize though he is also in the US bar in two states I believe. I doubt he would steer us wrong, though that sems not to carry much weight because I am so evasive. Hey if you are really losing sleep on this I will check!

[Salsa]

While you appear to be an impressively fast typist, esto, reading you reminds me of reading Immanuel Kant and the way he would spend pages of circumlocutious verbiage in order to obscure the fact that he was simply saying, "The cat is on the mat.">>>> This is not a question but I am glad to intuit that we each have separate lives. I agree Kant is tendentious. I incline to 14 line sonnets, Nietzsche aphorisms, save for about one third of them which are impossible, and minimalism in most things.Let's have more of that. Shall we? Actually, it appears that we already are. Thanks.

Salsa
____________

[Arzel]

I wish people would stop blaming Murphy for the failure of the matrix model. No amount of outside revenue could ever solve the problem regarding doubling. The same problem will plague the new system, in that the average share value will continue to drop, even with outside revenue. Since outside revenue cannot double infinately, but the number of positions to which shares will be attributed have no cap, they will dilute the overall amount available to the CPA.

Esto,

Why do you fail to believe this logic?
>>>> The new system makes no impossible promises. It states no income expectation. It says you will have a share of weekly income. Money in and money out. A one percent limit on what anyone could draw seems to me a current way of saying we are not going to let anyone take over.

The new system basically states that people will be paid eventually as if cycle times were 90 days. Do you believe that to be possible? And if so, what are your reasonings to believe this?

What really upsets me about YMMSS is they base all their future income off estimates of what they think will happen, but when people provide actual evidence that things are not working they claim that those people don't have all the info. YMMSS treats the $19 million a week and the even more substantial retail advertising stream to be an implied guarentee during the conference calls, yet they have no way to know what is going to happen. YMMSS wasn't even close to being able to predict cycle times for the past year.


I realize math is not your strong suit, but can you not see that for this system to be viable their will have to be some cap on either positions (shares) available, or time limit to which positions will be able to pay?
>>>> If any cap is needed I am sure it will be applied. We are for sustainability, not unrealistic promises.

YMMSS was based of unrealistic promises, this cannot be argued. The facts speak for themselves.

[esto]

Hi Arzel:

The new system basically states that people will be paid eventually as if cycle times were 90 days. Do you believe that to be possible? And if so, what are your reasonings to believe this?
>>>> That is not how I would present the new system. I would say that poritions with a value of $320 will go into our RFA Reading Fees Account and transformed into 32 credits each. These credits will be totaled for each member. Income will be entirely dependent on reading ads for a half hour a week, and that will become very sophisticated in terms of being able to tell if you have fulfilled that obligation. If you qualify you will be paid a percentage of the weekly net income -- net after 22 percent has been applied to the admin side to be used in equal portions for admin expenses and funding our income streams program. There is absolutely no guarantee that your income will be this or that. Only time will tell. My personal belief is irrelevant. I therefore disagree with the premise of the question and have no intention of telling anyone that people will be paid as if cycle times were 90 days. Furthermore, I agree with your remarks about the 16-19 million. I think that continued reference to that is counting chickens no matter how firm one's anticipations are and I also think it works to create passivity when we should be creating more proactive involvement.

[esto]

Hi Salsa.

Let's have more of that. Shall we?
>>>> I went to your profile to see if you had a site posted. Mine is in my profile. I am sure anyone going there could draw all sorts of conclusions. It is the work of about 14 years and is still only in its infancy in terms of what I would like to do. My son in law thinks it is clunky and old, but all I care about is usability. Cheers, S

[Dreamer]

http://www.belizelaw.org/lawadmin/PDF%20files/cap270.pdf - Page 18 of 146:

Requirements of International Business Companies:

5.-(1) For purposes of this Act, an International Business Company is a company that does not-

(a) carry on business with persons resident in Belize;
(b) own an interest in real property situate in Belize, other than a lease referred to in paragraph (e) of subsection (2);
(g) carry on collective investment schemes, unless it is licensed

(2) For purposes of paragraph (a) of susection (1), an International Business Company shall not be treated as carrying on business with persons resident in Belize by reason only that-

(b) it makes or maintains professional contact with solicitors, barristers, accountants, bookkeepers, trust companies, administration companies, investment advisers or other similar persons carrying on business within Belize.

(e) it holds a lease of property for use as an office from which to communicate with members or where books and records of the company are prepared and maintained.

***

I guess owning a resort in Belize is a good enough office space? That seems to contridict it. I'm sure they have similiar zoning laws in Belize, and I know in the states that if you want a retail location, a resort, or anything like that, that is zoned differently than an office location.

Even if he claimed that the resort serves as his office location, he would have to fire all the staff members because he cannot do business with them.

So, how is kim able to own a resort there?


investing: the act of investing; laying out money or capital in an enterprise with the expectation of profit



"collective investment scheme" means a scheme carried on by a company, a partnership or a unit trust that issues equity interests, the purpose or effect of which is the pooling of investor funds with the object of spreading investment risks and enabling investors in the scheme to receive profitis or grains from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of investments, provided that the pooling of funds by bnaks and insurance companies shall not be deemed to be within this definition.

This actually kind of describes the profit sharing that kim wants to do now. Now, i might be wrong on this point, but it sounds like it to me.

***

I've asked numerious times, in what field does ur attorney specialize. I would assume that a laywer in Belize is mostly intrested in keeping your business legal in Belize law. When you say your lawyer looked at all the laws of all the US states, i really doubt that because lawyers specialize in a certain branch of law. International Law? Or, did you actually find a securities and fraud lawyer. Even so, for them to look at all the laws on all the books...i dont think so.

***

If anybody wants to ask the Belize govt themselves questions, here is the info. I might be emailing them a couple of times.

http://www.belize.gov.bz/laws_of_belize.html
We are available to answer any queries at parliament@btl.net

***

Esto originally responded to this, but I've edited it a few times so I am reposting it. Sorry for the double post.

Esto, can you find out if kim owns the property, and how he is able to own the property when it goes against belize laws? And, can you find out how come your lawyer didn' stop him from purchasing the property if it is breaking the law?

And, can you find out what area of law your lawyer specializes in?

[esto]

Hi Dreamer

Esto, can you find out if kim owns the property, and how he is able to own the property when it goes against belize laws? And, can you find out how come your lawyer didn' stop him from purchasing the property if it is breaking the law?
And, can you find out what area of law your lawyer specializes in?
>>>> I will include the following question in the Questions for Kim. If it does not get asked this coming week it will the following week. There is a huge backlog of questions now. "Kim, who is the legal owner of the Belize Resort and Conference Center? And as a follow up, can you describe our legal staff and their specialties?

[Candyman]

I uncovered some cached pages from May 2004 that YMMSS was publishing related to income guarantees and other outrageous claims. Here is the link:

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.ymmss.net/intgold.php?id=17395 as retrieved on May 19, 2004 16:58:11 GMT.

Here is one quote from this page:

Retire in 36 months

The YMMSS Income Generation System will create a guaranteed income for you.

Generate a full-time income with...

No Selling!

No Sponsoring!

No Inventory!

No Phone Calls!

Esto, clearly this page states that YMMSS offers GUARANTEED income and that you can retire in 36 months. For any members that joined after May of 2004 expecting this guarantee; it appears to me that with the new business model that is planned, these members were fraudulently induced to join YMMSS with an expectation of guaranteed income based on money invested doubling every 60-90 days. Do you feel it is possible that members who joined under this premise should receive their invested money back if they ask for it?

How about this description of what YMMSS is about on the same page:

YMMSS is a way to DOUBLE YOUR MONEY in 3 months or less.

Or this quote:

The best thing is that whatever you spend on ads, your money is doubled in each cycle. What's a "cycle"? It's the time it takes for your name to climb from the bottom of the ladder to the top of the ladder which is when you get paid your commission. That ladder, by the way, is called a straight line matrix and when you purchase your first EPC (Email Posting Credit) you step onto the first rung of a rapidly moving ladder. Cycles take 60-90 days, and have been shorter.

Esto, it seems indefensible to me that you and YMMSS management can now conveniently claim that your attorneys "advised" you to make changes to these claims from the past. Why didn't these attorneys provide this advice in the first place?

I distinctly remember a letter that was posted by a YMMSS attorney in late 2003 that explicitly stated that the program was both legal and a sound business model. So what changed? Why did the attorneys change their minds from 2003 to 2004 and recommend changes to income guarantees? I also recall that this letter and its contents were taken down shortly after it was posted; why?

You don't seem to have any difficulty with these past guarantees that you personally supported and marketed to other YMMSS recruits. Your response now is that the new business model is better than the last one. How do you rationalize saying that the old model was flawed but you continued to aggressively defend and support it?

One final question, what business cirmcumstances would it take for you to come to the realization that YMMSS is not a viable business model?

Thanks.

[esto]

Esto, it seems indefensible to me that you and YMMSS management can now conveniently claim that your attorneys "advised" you to make changes to these claims from the past. Why didn't these attorneys provide this advice in the first place?
>>>> I do not know the exact date of the attorney's letter but it definitely indicated his opinion that we were neither a pyramid not a Ponzi. This was followed by advice to change our materials. The obvious reason was that the materials were deemed inadviseable, precisely because of the false inferences that could be drawn from them,

I distinctly remember a letter that was posted by a YMMSS attorney in late 2003 that explicitly stated that the program was both legal and a sound business model. So what changed? Why did the attorneys change their minds from 2003 to 2004 and recommend changes to income guarantees? I also recall that this letter and its contents were taken down shortly after it was posted; why?
>>>> I am not aware the letter was taken down. I do know that we were urged despite the letter to revise any marketing claims and that our policy on marketing has been posted for some time. It is in our Forums.

You don't seem to have any difficulty with these past guarantees that you personally supported and marketed to other YMMSS recruits. Your response now is that the new business model is better than the last one. How do you rationalize saying that the old model was flawed but you continued to aggressively defend and support it?
>>>> I am making a comparative statement. I personally like the old and still largely current system. I will miss it. But when the new platform was unveiled I found 25 reasons why I like it better. I keep saying it moves us into the mainstream and away from the world of money programs. I would contend that you will find the word guarantee rarely if ever in past marketing materials. If you do find it, it was wrong to have said it. As to promises of a doubling in 90 days, even the word doubling was barred from our marketing. But it was an accurate statement of what was happening prior to November, '04.

One final question, what business circumstances would it take for you to come to the realization that YMMSS is not a viable business model?
>>>> If we could not have a gradual but significant growth in retail ad revenue on the basis that our membership will provide advertisers a higher roi than most if not all other online advertising -- that would really be the only reason because that is our business plan. Everything else could be adjusted, but unless it is an apt analysis that we are on the cutting edge of engagement advertising online and can succeed in that arena, I would have to admit we were a flawed model. Naturally I believe we are on the cutting edge, that we have a growingly proactive membership, that we will achieve our new platform in a timely way, and that other elements such as YM branded sites and partnerships, income streams, and membership growth will also contribute to our success. We are first and foremost an ad business and always have been. People laughed at our stumbling efforts, but from a standing start to now we have done remarkable things and will continue to do so. Anyone here could well have hung in as I have and might well be in my position defending it, just as with a different mindset I might be one of you on the offensive. There is room for that sort of dialogue. But in the last analysis this is the basic question -- is our model viable. I do not think Mike would have left a Fortune 20 business which tried hard to keep him had he not believed we could lead on the Web. It is a viable model and in fact a revolutionary business concept that realigns the distribution of wealth at least in microcosm.

[bowmaker]

esto . since you are the one that issued the warning to lionking . im wandering if he will ever be allowed back on the ym forums . if you look in the ym forums you'll see that there are alot of people that want him back.

[esto]

esto . since you are the one that issued the warning to lionking . im wandering if he will ever be allowed back on the ym forums . if you look in the ym forums you'll see that there are alot of people that want him back.
>>>> I will take this as a question. The answer is YES. I specified when I approved the mod action that my email address be sent to LK and all it would take is a note to me indicating he will abide by our TOU and he can be back in short order. I hardly regard him as an enemy of YM. Glad you asked.

[thinkaboutit]

this is a nice site. i see we have the big time ymmsser's in here.i have a few questions for you esto but first let me read through all 14 pages of this thread to see if they might have already been asked.

cheers.

[brenda]

esto . since you are the one that issued the warning to lionking . im wandering if he will ever be allowed back on the ym forums . if you look in the ym forums you'll see that there are alot of people that want him back.

it is so sad that lionking got kicked out. he is so sweet and all he ever did was crack jokes about buying socks with his income. we loved his sock jokes.

[lionking]

Esto, I know this is not a question,
but ;) ;) ;)


Esto wrote:

I will take this as a question. The answer is YES. I specified when I approved the mod action that my email address be sent to LK and all it would take is a note to me indicating he will abide by our TOU and he can be back in short order. I hardly regard him as an enemy of YM. Glad you asked.


Esto,
I NEVER got your email address!

:nono: :nono: :nono:

I will try my best to abide TOU!

:D :D :D

Dear "Brenda",

I MISSED YOU TOO!

;) ;) ;)

he is so sweet and all he ever did was crack jokes about buying socks with his income. we loved his sock jokes.

Do you mean my "potential" income? I did not get any at this point...
I did not even got back what I put in in to YMMSS...

But I look forward to visit Dollar store soon...

lol lol lol

[brenda]

Maybe we can meet at the Dollar Store that would be fun. I'm glad you still have your sense of humor after getting kicked out of the YM forums you always did make me laugh lol lol lol Do you think Esto will read this and let you back in the forums? That would be "nice". Just do what they tell you :bow: at least we can see your face every day even if they dont let you meow or growl or roar. Esto - can you please send lionking your email address so he can get back in the "family" as you will notice UP ABOVE he said he will keep the rules. :bow:

[brenda]

Gee Whiz, LionKing, it's pathetic that I have to come over here to chat with you. if they would let you back in we could all chat with each other again "over there" while waiting to get rich :) Oh well maybe everybody will have to come over here to talk to you. Lots of people miss you. I guess that would be o.k. if everybody came here to talk to you, would MW care? - it's not too bad here, everybody's been nice to me so far. They are all nice to me at YM too for the most part :)

[liveandlearn]

Esto-

I have asked for a refund 3 times and have been told no every time that I will not get one because YMMSS does not give refunds. If you have helped facilitate these refunds perhaps you could help me and the 2 other people that I got into this get a refund as well. I think it is unfair that some get a refund and others are told no. Please respond thanks!

ESTO QUOTE:

>>>> It has done so in the case of a small number of members who have made a request to leave. I have helped members of this forum leave YM and facilitated their refunds. YM has no desire to keep members who do not want to become a proactive part of our online advertising business. We are for real and we are serious.

[esto]

Esto, I know this is not a question,
but ;) ;) ;)


Esto wrote:




Esto,
I NEVER got your email address!

:nono: :nono: :nono:

I will try my best to abide TOU!

:D :D :D

Dear "Brenda",

I MISSED YOU TOO!

;) ;) ;)



Do you mean my "potential" income? I did not get any at this point...
I did not even got back what I put in in to YMMSS...

But I look forward to visit Dollar store soon...

lol lol lol

Hi LK. Sorry about that. I specified that my address be included in the note you received when your Forum account was closed. This response works. I will have Scott restore your Forum membership. Cheers, S

[esto]

Esto-

I have asked for a refund 3 times and have been told no every time that I will not get one because YMMSS does not give refunds. If you have helped facilitate these refunds perhaps you could help me and the 2 other people that I got into this get a refund as well. I think it is unfair that some get a refund and others are told no. Please respond thanks!

ESTO QUOTE:

>>>> It has done so in the case of a small number of members who have made a request to leave. I have helped members of this forum leave YM and facilitated their refunds. YM has no desire to keep members who do not want to become a proactive part of our online advertising business. We are for real and we are serious.

I can be reached by email through my profile here. Best, S

[esto]

Esto, I know this is not a question,
but ;) ;) ;)


Esto,
I NEVER got your email address!



Hi again. You have been restored. I sent you a pm here. Best, S

[Loveit]

Hello All...I have been reading in this forum now for a week. I am a happy YMMSS affiliate, but incognito.. :cool: I am happy to see Esto in here, trying to do his best to explain the YMMSS business. I don't know if I could hold up under the grueling 3rd degree. I have been in YMMSS now for 2 years. I knew when I came into the business, that I was to purchase advertising, and with that I could post anything that you would put in your newspaper classified section. I also knew that when my money doubled at that time 43 days, I would then be able to post another ad in the ad forums. I have seen the cycle times rise, but I also have always gotten paid. That is the point, I think...get paid. I never lost any money. I know the new people who came in after our new website came, and all the other difficulties we had, have not seen their money yet. I do understand their frustration, because they have not been in long enough to see the good days we had. If this was some ponzi scheme as everyone in here is so certain it is :shake: then I think at this point the business would have folded up and disappeared. That is not the case, because Kim wants this business to continue on for our families and his.
We have grown from a small membership of 100 when I came in to thousands now. This new system is another step to bring YMMSS into the next level of
the business.
From what I have read in this forum, no matter what anyone says positive about YMMSS, it will never be acknowledged as truth. So, I expect some negative comment to be made. I just had to say something after reading all the trash being said.
Oh..I have missed you to LionKing..me and my cats. ;)

Peace

Loveit

[lionking]

Loveit,

I understand what you are saying, you has been Paid and more then
double your original investment...

Congradulations! If I would be PAID I would do the same thing as you,
I would be HAPPY...

But I NEVER got paid, ALL my positions ARE February, so it will take
YEARS to recover what I put in YM...

:nono: :nono: :nono:

I think that $3.09 or less per new $320 is as real as it gets.
Of course, I could be wrong...

lol lol lol

Why would that table chart was even shown to us?
To see our reaction? Sure,$3.09 is better then NOTHING,
but it is not even close to $25!!!

And I don't believe $19 mil per week are coming in July next year.

IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE!!!

But I BELIEVE IT WHEN I SEE IT!!!

Best wishes to you and your Kitties,
Lionking

lol lol lol

[surfer]

Welcome to Matrix Watch Loveit.

From what I have read in this forum, no matter what anyone says positive about YMMSS, it will never be acknowledged as truth.
Perhaps your reading skills need to be improved
then.

In making such a sweeping generalization, surely
there must be at least one positive fact that you
can point out that we didn't acknowledge as truth.

So, I expect some negative comment to be made. I just had to say something after reading all the trash being said.
Oh..I have missed you to LionKing..me and my cats. ;)

Peace

Loveit

I view lying to and misleading people as negative. I
view sharing opinions as positive, no matter whether
they agree with mine or not.

We just had to say something after seeing Kim Inman
telling so many lies, giving irresponsible(and illegal)
guarantees, and breaking promises to thousands of
people

Let me ask you this Loveit. Do you think there would
even be a section for YMMSS here if it had not been
marketed in an irresponsible way with unrealistic claims
about a system "designed" to last generations with all
winners and no losers?

Look around these forums. How many "legit" businesses
do you see targeted here?

[Loveit]

Hi Surfer...

My reading skills are great thanks :) My thoughts on this lying to everyone statement is this..I think what has happened is that plans where made for the business to run a certain way. So, Kim explains that to everyone, and the business runs smoothly on that premise. Sometimes things happen in businesses , or in our own lives that we did not expect to happen. If that occurs then you take mesures to get things running smoothly again. I believe that is what Kim has done, and when this system is in place people will again be paid, and this time every week.. :applause:

Peace,

Loveit

[surfer]

I'm still waiting for all of those positive facts
that we didn't acknowledge to be listed. :rolleyes:

Yes, sometimes things happen in business.
That's precisely the reason that you don't
make guarantees that you are unable to
honor.

If your brand new vehicle had something go
wrong with it and the warranty was supposed
to cover it, would you accept the excuse...
"We're sorry sir/madam. In business, things just
happen and we no longer honor our warranties."

And unless the new system is paying $25/week
for every share, Kim is still not honoring his word
and fulfilling his guarantee to the thousands that
he lied to.

Rationalize it however you wish. Facts are facts.
Hi Surfer...

My reading skills are great thanks :) My thoughts on this lying to everyone statement is this..I think what has happened is that plans where made for the business to run a certain way. So, Kim explains that to everyone, and the business runs smoothly on that premise. Sometimes things happen in businesses , or in our own lives that we did not expect to happen. If that occurs then you take mesures to get things running smoothly again. I believe that is what Kim has done, and when this system is in place people will again be paid, and this time every week.. :applause:

Peace,

Loveit

[Arzel]

I know the new people who came in after our new website came, and all the other difficulties we had, have not seen their money yet. I do understand their frustration, because they have not been in long enough to see the good days we had. If this was some ponzi scheme as everyone in here is so certain it is :shake: then I think at this point the business would have folded up and disappeared. That is not the case, because Kim wants this business to continue on for our families and his.
We have grown from a small membership of 100 when I came in to thousands now. This new system is another step to bring YMMSS into the next level of
the business.
From what I have read in this forum, no matter what anyone says positive about YMMSS, it will never be acknowledged as truth. So, I expect some negative comment to be made. I just had to say something after reading all the trash being said.
Oh..I have missed you to LionKing..me and my cats. ;)

Peace

Loveit

Welcome Loveit,

You make a couple of good points, most namely that YMMSS DID have good times. Those times are long gone, never to be returned. I don't know why so many people think that because everyone has been paid when they cycle it somehow makes YMMSS not a Ponzi. Charles Ponzi paid everyone when they were due to be paid, in fact he paid until the point of having no money at all, which is not something Kim has been willing to do.

These scams depend on a certain number of people making money, and making good money, and you are a perfect example of this. If you look at any of the previous matrix site you will see a consistent pattern.

When the site/business opens, the first people always get paid, and make statements like "No one that has cycled has not recieved their gift/cash." Much like the YMMSS statement "No one has lost any money, everyone has been paid when they reach the top of the ladder." Eventually the system collapses (as it just has with YMMSS) and many people end up stuck on the ladder never to be paid.

The cold hard truth is at least 62.5% (roughly a cycle of 2.67 because 75% of purchases went back into the CPA) will lose in the end, it will probably be much higher than that, but I like to deal in actual facts.

As one of the original 100 how do you feel that your wealth from YMMSS will be at the expense of Thousands of others, including LK.

[Bocotora]

Dreamer

The resort on the island was bought from Mr. Goode or rather is being bought. It was leased purchased over a period of a couple of years. Locals think Mr. Goode may still not have been paid the balance of his money.

Even though Kim may have registered his YMMSS business as " offshore" in Belize he would probably either put the property in his name or further register the ownership offshore again in Cayman or Antigua ala Enron

As i wrote back a few months, if he is ever convicted of any financial fraud in the US, the jurisdiction in which he is busted would need to prove that that money bought the property in Belize. Aftert that it doesnt take much time for everything be handed over to US jurisdiction for disposal ie sell to pay back as many people that were involved.

Bocotora

[Bocotora]

Dreamer

Probably the following link would be more helpful.

The Central Bank of Belize is basically your Federal Reserve. They are the ones who find and confiscate all the bad boys monies and return it to the rightful owners.

Kim is but one in a long long long line of money launderers, scammers, hackers, bank robbers etc who fled to Belize to R & R.

You can contact them at info@centralbank.org.bz

Maybe some one should send them a link to this site?

[Loveit]

Hello Arzel

Thank you for your welcome. I beg to differ with you in regard to taking someone elses money. I have had returned to me, exactly what I have put into the business. I have not lost, nor gained.


Peace..

Loveit

[Loveit]

I have been to the lodge on the island of St. Geoges Caye, off the island of Belize. Beautiful place, and Kim has done much to update it. Two conferences are planned, one in December and the other in March.


Peace,

Loveit

[drzod]

Loveit and Esto, you both are true believes in YMMSS, and no one here would doubt that.

However, if YMMSS is so wonderful as you claim it is, why all the censorship and kicking members out (Swishnev, myself, etc.).

Why not debate issues brought up by these former members in the forums?

Why delete anything that questions YMMSS?

Nothing is deleted here, and you only get kicked out if you threaten others or continue to insult after you have been warned (usually multiple times I must say).

Do not see that it hurts your case for YMMSS being legit to remove anything that is not a "happy gram?"

Just think of the PR you could build with disenchanted members if you would answer their questions and concerns with real facts and figures instead of skirting the issue. If you do not wish to answer the questions here, I can accept that, but at least do so for the sake of your fellow YMMSS members.

Just telling members about the good times will not work, since the majority of them cannot relate to your success. In addition, making empty promises will not work either. Stand behind your company with truth and honesty if you really feel the way you do about YMMSS.

I ask this question of you, how do you prevent YMMSS members from "switching sides" now that they can find this site through any search engine? Before this snowballs, what can you do to help members regain faith in YMMSS?

[brenda]

Dear Esto - Thanks for letting LionKing back in. Like one of the posts above, it isn't good for "our image" to keep kicking people out. It would be better to just delete the posts that are obviously RUDE and OBNOXIOUS, but not kick the people out, because maybe they don't know they are being rude and obnoxious, even though they have been told a million times. Lion King was never rude and obnoxious, nobody just didnt ever understand his jokes. He is really quite funny, and we all love him so much. We all love you too, you are one of the nicest people on the planet. EVERYBODY, in spite of everything, we all hope YM is not going down, because in addition to the money, we would all lose track of each other,and believe it or not, we all love each other. You have really never seen a bunch of people like there are in YM, So say what you want, we are family - we don't even understand it.......

[Loveit]

Hi drzod..

I am in the ymforums alot, and for a very long time I read alot of negative stuff in there. Really bad stuff. It went on for months, and months. The only reason they were in there was to post negativity. I saw the mods, over and over again try to answer the questions, but it was never enough. Matrix watch is not a business forum, so negativety is no problem. If you run a business however, do you think this is good for business?? YM forums is a business forum.
As far as what other members do, I have no say in that. I would say to them however, give Kim a chance to get this new system working, and then do what you feel you need to do, and I will do the same.

Peace,

Loveit ;)

[Dreamer]

Bocotora,

Can you provide information for the sale of the resort, or how did you get your facts? I am not doubting you for a second, but I have just not been able to come up with any concrete evidence of this transaction. This might be due to the fact that I only started looking into it a week ago :)

But yeah, this may be just something that is not important, that people just dont care about, but I can think of 3 possible answers to my question.

1. The resort is owned by kim in kims name, and he is breaking belize laws by owning land and by employing residents.
2. The resort is owned by kim in somebody elses name, contuining with the lies and deceit to ymmss by claiming he owns it, where he realizes he doesnt own it.
3. He doesnt own it, or as you suggested, maybe hasnt finished paying the balance, or whatever. Maybe its even a partnership of some sorts, he pays the employees and he gets to pretend like he owns a resort.

None of these look positive for him, so thats why i'm trying to get the information from this resort.

[Arzel]

Hi drzod..

I am in the ymforums alot, and for a very long time I read alot of negative stuff in there. Really bad stuff. It went on for months, and months. The only reason they were in there was to post negativity. I saw the mods, over and over again try to answer the questions, but it was never enough. Matrix watch is not a business forum, so negativety is no problem. If you run a business however, do you think this is good for business?? YM forums is a business forum.

If a business cannot handle negativity effectively within it's own organization than the business has problems.

Thank you for your welcome. I beg to differ with you in regard to taking someone elses money. I have had returned to me, exactly what I have put into the business. I have not lost, nor gained.


How can you make this claim? You have been involved with YMMSS for close to 3 years and you claim to have not made a single penny? I find that very difficult to believe, and I really don't believe you at all.


As far as what other members do, I have no say in that. I would say to them however, give Kim a chance to get this new system working, and then do what you feel you need to do, and I will do the same.


Why should anyone give Kim a chance to get the new system working? The old system has been broken for close to half a year (about 7 months give or take a month), and you expect these same people to give Kim another 2 or 3 months to implement a new system that won't (until July of 2006 minimum) allow a single person, that has joined in 2005, the ability to even earn back their original investment. Additionally most people, regardless of what you think, will NEVER get back their original investment, much less earn the income of their dreams.

[Loveit]

Arzel..

Don't call me a liar...you have no right to call me that in this forum or any other forum. I can't show you my 1099 since we are here on the net, but I would if I could see you. I broke even. I have been in YMMSS 2 years, and not 3. This is the typical response I expected. You think you have all the answers, but it shows me, that the truth is not wanted in here. I hope other YM members will see that...and I'm sure they will. :mad:

Loveit

[Salsa]

Arzel..

Don't call me a liar...you have no right to call me that in this forum or any other forum. I can't show you my 1099 since we are here on the net, but I would if I could see you. I broke even. I have been in YMMSS 2 years, and not 3. This is the typical response I expected. You think you have all the answers, but it shows me, that the truth is not wanted in here. I hope other YM members will see that...and I'm sure they will. :mad:

LoveitEither way, Loveit, I love your testament. Here's a two-year YMMSS member who hasn't made any money!!!! It really isn't all that rare, Arzel. And that's even from someone who once experienced 43-day cycles!!! It makes one wonder what possible hope anyone joining today might have--when cycle times are 279 days! Thanks, Loveit, I'm sure you've done more to scare people away from YMMSS with this info than any of us here at Matrix Watch could do. The problem with YMMSS is that you cannot win either way.

Salsa
________

[surfer]

Hey Loveit.

I was surprised by Arzel's reply as well, but
not for the same reasons.

He knows as well as anybody that there are
actually many people like yourself that keep
giving Kim money and even after two years
aren't ahead of the game. Quite the contrary.
After being suckered in by Kim's bad guarantees
they dumped a ton of money in only to watch
the system designed to last for generations
start to collapse under its own weight.

Your situation further proves one of our points
that not only has nobody that joined in the
last 9+ months cycled or broke even, but many
more older members are also operating at break
even or a loss.

And yet you continue to heap praise on a man
and a system where you have no idea how much
you can expect to be paid for doing your job. :head:

[Arzel]

Arzel..

Don't call me a liar...you have no right to call me that in this forum or any other forum. I can't show you my 1099 since we are here on the net, but I would if I could see you. I broke even. I have been in YMMSS 2 years, and not 3. This is the typical response I expected. You think you have all the answers, but it shows me, that the truth is not wanted in here. I hope other YM members will see that...and I'm sure they will. :mad:

Loveit

I said I don't believe you, there is a difference from actually calling you a liar, so I appologize if you took it that way.

You stated that you were one of the first 100. YMMSS has been around for 3 years, are we to believe that YMMSS attracted less than 100 members in the first year? But that is beside the point.

So your statement then is that all you have taken back out is the original amount from which you purchased advertising, be it $10 or $32,000. And all of your positions have just been cycling and repurchasing? This would lead me to believe that you have quite a sum tied up in potential profits. The reason I didn't believe you, is that I find it difficult to believe someone would have a substantial amount of money tied up in a system that has collapsed, be so happy about a future which is very suspect. I realize you have an investment to protect, but why (when so many of your contemporaries have done so) did you not take any profits? What exactly were you waiting for?

[Loveit]

Arzel..

What I forgot to mention is that I had some of my commissions on repurchase, which would have made up the difference. Money was going back in the system again. I have since changed that, and have been paid a couple of times this year.

Loveit

[Loveit]

I came into YM 7/03. The business began 6/02 When it first began it was all by word of mouth. Family and friends telling one another about it. The web site was nothing like it is now. People didn't know about YM unless someone told them about it.

Loveit

[mechanic]

I said I don't believe you, there is a difference from actually calling you a liar, so I appologize if you took it that way.

You stated that you were one of the first 100. YMMSS has been around for 3 years, are we to believe that YMMSS attracted less than 100 members in the first year? But that is beside the point.

So your statement then is that all you have taken back out is the original amount from which you purchased advertising, be it $10 or $32,000. And all of your positions have just been cycling and repurchasing? This would lead me to believe that you have quite a sum tied up in potential profits. The reason I didn't believe you, is that I find it difficult to believe someone would have a substantial amount of money tied up in a system that has collapsed, be so happy about a future which is very suspect. I realize you have an investment to protect, but why (when so many of your contemporaries have done so) did you not take any profits? What exactly were you waiting for?

You know ,I find the staunch suporters of YM and their effort to defend YM ironic and really laughable.They come in here and rave on about it and never once have they ever given any mathamatical facts as to how the old system or the new system can possiably survive.It would actually be very comical,if it was not so serious to the people that would like to have their money back.It would be nice to just see how many people have actually put their money to claim by website.The only one that really knows is Kim,and he sure isnt going to devulge the true stats.I personally know that a lot have asked how to claim by website.I also wonder just how many of the suporters are really hoping to keep the sales up long enough to be able to just claim by website.No matter how you look at it,the new system will not work,unless someone can truely come up with some true mathical equations as to how it can really work and not take years to even break even.

Layton :confused: :confused: :shake: :shake:

[Arzel]

Arzel..

What I forgot to mention is that I had some of my commissions on repurchase, which would have made up the difference. Money was going back in the system again. I have since changed that, and have been paid a couple of times this year.

Loveit

Thanks for the clarification Loveit.

And just to make sure there are no more misunderstandings if I ever say "I don't believe you."

I very rarely say "You are a LIAR!". To me that implies the accusor has some specific knowledge/proof to back up the accusation.

Sometimes I may say "I think you are lying." or "Now you are just lying." Which implies I think there is proof of a lie, but I don't have any specific knowledge to prove that the other person is lying.

Usually I will say "I don't believe you." or "I don't think you are telling the (whole) truth." Which I imply, that based off all possible scenarios the one you presented is statistically very unlikely. As a statistician I rarely deal in absolutes. I also like this statement because the usual response will be some additional information. :)

In Loveit's situation, I don't have any proof one way or another. There is proof which could prove one way or another, but I still didn't have a strong enough conviction to say "I think you are lying". But I did find the statement statistically unlikely, hense the "I don't believe you."

[esto]

Hi Arzel --

why all the censorship and kicking members out (Swishnev, myself, etc.).
>>>> There is only one reason why items in our forums are eiither deleter, edited, locked or moved. If the author violates our Terms of Use. Banning is hardly permanent. I am actually the last resort on that front before a problem goes to admin. I generally try to discuss with the person as I did with Swishnev. I wish he would step us and at least acknowledge that we did have a civil dialog and that I did help him achieve his expressed desire to leave YM.
As you can perceive I also saw LionKing back in today.

Why not debate issues brought up by these former members in the forums?
>>>> We do all the time. We have always debated or discussed such issues and almost everything I have seen here gets asked of Kim in our now weekly q and a sessions.

Why delete anything that questions YMMSS?
>>>> We don't. Most of our Office threads are questions that get extended discussion as needed. Most of the focus now is on the present and future as we transition toward being public advertising presence on the Web.

Do not see that it hurts your case for YMMSS being legit to remove anything that is not a "happy gram?"
>>>> This is overdrawn. Some of our people tend to be positive in defense against negativity, but we have a core of exceedingly bright and articulate members whose primary goal is to be helpful, not pollyannaish.

Just think of the PR you could build with disenchanted members
>>>> Why not build it here?

I ask this question of you, how do you prevent YMMSS members from "switching sides" now that they can find this site through any search engine? Before this snowballs, what can you do to help members regain faith in YMMSS?
>>>> Before what snowballs? This forum is known to our members. Most find it pretty much not their cup of tea. Those who have lost faith are being restored one by one as two things take place. We learn lessons as we go and amend as needed. We change specific elements of the program to achieve sustainability.

[Loveit]

Thanks Arzel for your explanation. I think I have said all I can in here, and it is very clear to me, that any explanation from me or any other YMMSS member that is positive will be scoffed at. I am not a math expert as you seem to be, so explaning anything using figures is not my strong suit. I can only speak from my experience.

Peace,

Loveit

[surfer]

No need to feel scoffed at Loveit.

It is simply that affiliates like yourself can
offer no explanations. You can only offer
testimonials of what was, not what is or
what will be.

We understand exactly how the scheme was
designed and how it worked very well for just
over 2 years.

We also understand the math that caused the
inevitable slide.

I have seen very few posts from pro-YMMSS
affiliates here deal with the very real issues of
math involved in sustaining what Kim promises
to all members....guaranteed success.......all
winners, no losers, blah, blah, blah.

All of your hopes and dreams are based on results
from the early momentum stage of a well managed
ponzi scheme, hopes of a wildly successful launch
of a previously failed business model(paid to read),
and forecasts of outrageous investment returns from
unknown sources.

You all fail to see the future impact of neverending
amounts of "shares" pouring into the RFA and ignore
the fact that STA/YMMSS will have to increase
revenues every week forever just to maintain stability.
The more shares people buy today, the more revenue
that will be needed to be created when they come due.

This is all about unrealistic promises and hype. There
will never be any system that makes everyone successful
on a large scale. That is what every con man out there
promises.

Good luck to you Loveit.

[esto]

My turn to ask a question. I would be happy to answer questions that involve the viability of the system that is coming into place. Fire away. Anyone interested?

Also I am happy to report that in helping design our new STA information site that is coming up this week I proposed and I believe it has been accepted a basic caveat to the effect that we neither guarantee any level of financial gain or any level of advertising success. I would be remiss if I did not say that it was out of this week's dialog that I did that. I do not feel that that in any way dampens prospects for a profitable future.

Finally in reference to something earlier relating to having uncycled positions and looking forward to the new system, I am in that position big time. And I am looking forward like mad. I believe I will make just as much as I ever would have had the current system churned along with 90 day cycles. I believe there will be no limit on what I can make if I choose to keep purchasing wholesale advertising.

And one other thing. I made about a thousand dollars google advertising a nutrition company the last few months. It was just a low cost experiment in retail advertising. I plan to become a big time advertiser on our public site and run a contest between the two to see what does better.

None of my current enthusiasm would have been possible without the original YMMSS. And believe me the nutrition company I joined learned the same lesson about mlms that Kim did and that is why I am in it.

I love the web. I love web business. And each day is to me an adventure. I couldn't ask for anything better. Cheers, S

[surfer]

Without full details on the new system, it's
difficult to analyze anything specific.

I can only say that I don't think I'm alone in
the belief that the new system simply swaps
increasing cycle times for decreasing share
value.

Just as a killer launch of the STA site would
have put a little stability temporarily in rising
cycle times, it would now temporarily create
some stability in share value, whatever that
may be.

It is also impossible to make many comments on
how the new system will be marketed. We will
simply have to wait and see whether it will be
marketed with tons of hype and false promises
as the old system was.

So I guess my only questions at this time are:

Do you have any better idea on when the new
system is to be implemented?

Does Kim intend to give his affiliates a more
realistic idea of what type of income they could
expect before launching the new system?

If the new system works as I believe it will, it
will present a much more realistic view of actual
revenue since the current system of recycling
inflates the commissions paid stats dramatically.

Just by letting people know the various percentages
of position levels and the total number of current
positions in the matrix, affiliates could get a firmer
grasp of the revenue that will be needed to generate
certain weekly share values.

Oh, and it will be interesting to see your comparison
between AdWords and STA.

[Dreamer]

I have my own questions regarding the new system with my current understanding.

So, lets assume that there are 100,000 positions, and based on $500,000/week, each position will pay $3. I"m rounding lots of numbers for simplicitiy sake here, so bare with me.

Now, as you previously admitted to, most positions currently are recycled, so the $500,000, I would say $300,000 comes from recycled positions, and $200,000 comes from new purchases. If you have better numbers, or more believable numbers, I would like to hear, but I just want things to be rounded nicely.

So, with the new system which kills all the recycled positions, we automatically lose $300,000, so now payouts will be $200,000 per week based on new purchases, and that $35,000, and the $300,000 injections. Again, rounding numbers for simplicity.

So, the very next day, instead of each posiiton earning $3 as suggested, if the current rate of purchase remains the same, each position will earn $1.50.

Now, with these numbers of $1.50 a week, what would make more sence? Well, kim has stated that the longer you have been a member the more you should make for the $320s, so a 320 that is 1.5 years old will make $1.50/week, and one that has been around for 3 years will make $3/week, and one that has just started will make a few pennies. So, here are my figures using excel. For my math I did it by months, not weeks, for simplicity. I am also looking at the next 2 years for ideas.

After 2 years:
$10 -> $9.42
$20 -> $18.97
$40 -> $26.78
$80 -> $32.63
$160->$36.22
$320->$37.18

No, thats not profit. Thats how much money a share made today will have made over the life of the program.

Here is what I used for numbers.

Months - Month after new program started + 36 (for the previous 3 years). Divide this by 2 to get the average payout per share (since this chart is strictly for new purchases).

Value of share - Month after new program started/months (from previous calculation.

Quick example, for the first month:
Month (1) + 36 (previous months) = 37. Month 18.5 will have average payout of $1.50/share (as stated in beginning of this post) * 4 (number of weeks in a month). [This month (1)/18.5]*1.50 (current share value) *4 = $.32 for this new share. And thats kims vision.

Also, because the $10 purchases are the only ones that make sence, in order to keep the $200,000 per week that will be paid out, another 20,000 positions will be added. So, after 15 months when positions start to cycle, the first month after will have 180,000 positions, than 260,000 positions.

So, how much will shares be worth? Using $1.50 as my baseline today, the first month after the 10s mature to 320s, they will be worth $1.96. By the end of 2 years after the change, each share will be worth $.53.

That is based on $200,000/week. So, what happens in 18 months when there will be $19million/week? Thats 95x more than the current plan. So, What will the remainer of that year look like?

Month 18 - 19 - 20 - 21 - 22 - 23 - 24
$90 - $79 - $70 - $64 - $58 - $54 - $50

Now, thats actually not to bad. But, if he can do this, why isnt he doing it already? Probably because he cant.

Now, this is the best case scenario, right? $50 a share isnt bad, especially if u paid $10 15 months ago. I wouldnt mind that. But, for the past 15 months, i've been making a dollar 50 a share. Now that I'm making $90 a share because kim came thru for me, I should just keep it all since its the first time I'm seeing real money. Next month its now down to $80 a share..and the next $70? I'm making less and less money, i'm not going to spend it.

But thats assuming you believe the $19million. I dont.

But, you know what the beauty of this system is? Lets say there is 25,000 members, and each own 4 mature shares. Well, they realize the more shares they have the more money they'll make. So, opening week, each member buys 1,000 more $10 shares. After all, that $90/share is looking pretty damn tasty. Thats $90,000 per week that they will be raking in! Well, now each share is worth about 1/1000th than before, so each person will make the same amount as if nobody bought anymore. Who wins? Well, with kims 22%, kim pockets $55million, and each person gets the same as if nobody did anything.

[surfer]

Well, kim has stated that the longer you have been a member the more you should make for the $320s
Dreamer, there will be a temporary weighting of
the positions depending on how long the position
has been stalled in this most recent cycle.

So a position that has been waiting for 9 months
to cycle will be assigned a how value than one
that is not as old.

The weighting will be for a certain transitional
period of time. Exact terms remain unknown.

After the transition, all $320s(32 ad credits)
will have the same value.

[Dreamer]

Surfer,

So, than if in 18 months kim manages to get $19million, I can quickly buy a couple hundred shares just so I'll be making $90/share, the same amount that everybody else is making?

[drzod]

Esto, you responded to my questions by addressing Arzel, but that is OK.

In your respond you stated: "I am actually the last resort on that front before a problem goes to admin. I generally try to discuss with the person as I did with Swishnev. I wish he would step us and at least acknowledge that we did have a civil dialog and that I did help him achieve his expressed desire to leave YM."

This is not the case, because I never heard from you personally. I registered in the YM forums with my username from YMMSS and my username here - drzod.

I posted a question in regards to cycle times, and the next day I was kicked out.

The response from YM admin quoted my posts here, and said I was kicked out and refused a refund due to my "hostile" intentions.

True, I intended to get kicked out, but you would have never known this unless you came here and read my posts. I never posted anything hostile on any YM forums - just questions. If you do a search by my username on this site, you will find most of my posts to the YM forums.

So, if you are the resort, and you contact a member before kicking them out - what happened? Who overstepped your authority? Was it Alan getting his "revenge" from getting kicked out here as 200_k_already?

The fact that this inconsistency exists worries me that the rules are not being followed by YM mods on the forums.

[surfer]

Surfer,

So, than if in 18 months kim manages to get $19million, I can quickly buy a couple hundred shares just so I'll be making $90/share, the same amount that everybody else is making?
Exactly. If you buy a 32 ad credit, you start
getting your share the next week. :)

That's a good segway to one of my other
issues about "building your business". It's
so ridiculous that people are promoting the
purchase of EPCs as building their business.

They are merely adding to their investment
portfolio in the hopes that Kim Inman comes
through with all that he's promised. They
have very little control over their "business"
and how it performs.

[surfer]

One thing to note drzod.

Esto is referring to the YMForums where you only
made one post.

The posts that led to your eviction were in the
Ad Forums and are handled by an entirely different
set of mods.

This is not the case, because I never heard from you personally. I registered in the YM forums with my username from YMMSS and my username here - drzod.

I posted a question in regards to cycle times, and the next day I was kicked out.

The response from YM admin quoted my posts here, and said I was kicked out and refused a refund due to my "hostile" intentions.

True, I intended to get kicked out, but you would have never known this unless you came here and read my posts. I never posted anything hostile on any YM forums - just questions. If you do a search by my username on this site, you will find most of my posts to the YM forums.

So, if you are the resort, and you contact a member before kicking them out - what happened? Who overstepped your authority? Was it Alan getting his "revenge" from getting kicked out here as 200_k_already?

The fact that this inconsistency exists worries me that the rules are not being followed by YM mods on the forums.

[Gringo]

Esto,

What makes you so optimistic regarding the success of the new structure in light of the fact that the success depends entirely on ever increasing large income generated from selling paid to read ads to retail clients and:

1. Paid to read ad sites have been around for years and they attract no significant advertisers, even with membership much larger than the 26,000 in YMMSS.
2. Members have been encourged to sell retail ads from the beginning of YMMSS and it has never generated significant income.
3. The value of an ad is minimal even to members that presumably think the medium has some usefulness as show by the fact that they sell on YMMSS auctions for 10 cents per $10 EPC.

Do you really think that a new website and a new ad salesman will be able to create ever increase demand and sales for an advertising medium that has been proven to be of no interest to major advertisers?

[drzod]

Actually, it was not until I registered and signed up for the YM forums (not the gold, silver, and general YMMSS only forums), and posted under the cycle time thread that I got booted.

Esto, can you clear up the discrepancy between Swishnev and myself getting booted?

Thanks.

[esto]

drzod, I think your "case" came before my role was clarified as no one ever contacted me about you. I do recall some correspondence among mods about a person who evidently wanted to get kicked out. If you want back in, that is perhaps doable, assuming your purpose is not to undermine or attack YMMSS. Otherwise what would be the point? We do have hostile members I suppose. Maybe undercover ones. But I am not in favor of encouraging that.

THE INHERITANCE QUESTION: I think that it is the dumbest thing in the world for our members or anyone else to dwell on funds we have not seen as a basis for joining YM and I fully agree with anyone who agrees with that. I am sure the figure of millions coming next summer came out in a moment of exuberance and then was subjected to a spate of Oh really?s and now has entered the lore to be used as either a lure -- which I believe is entirely unethical and wrong -- or a basis -- as here -- for speculation about how to take advantage of income fluctuations within YM.

Tell you what: I have fought for and I believe been successful in entering some controls into the mix. I will not get specific but envision a system in which income cannot increase over a certain amount each week without the overage -- if there is a lot of income -- being put into a rainy day fund. Imagine that a lesser percentage floor is pur UNDER the pay pattern of prior weeks so that if income dips the rainy day fund will support to within a small percentate of previous levels. I do not say this will happen but it is definitely a matter that is being considered and checked in terms of its viability.

One other thing about viability. In recent notes this is receiving the same treatment as in our own forums, namely a lot of speculative figuring based on the idea that we will need somehow to duplicate something. You cannot have it both ways. I am for YOUR suggestion that we neither guarantee any level of income or advertising success. I am willing to accept the business on the basis of that condition and to do no promotion that does more than suggest that our hope is that we will succeed very well in both areas.

PAID TO READ PARALLELS.

Every paid to read thing I have looked at has paid peanuts or traded hits or otherwise been anything but what we have set out to become. We have a serious membership of partipants who have purchased wholesale advertising and that has led to the payout of over 90 million in commissions in less than two years. We have now commenced phase two which is the unveiling this week of a STA Info site and in September of our retail ad site.

You don't think 20,000 members soon to be paid weekly have the wherewithal to make our forthcoming retail site one of the most trafficked ones on the Web? I can't wait. Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly. That is 20,000,000 visits a week and I believe that is a low estimate. It is also likely that some of the admin budget will be made available to promote the site.

I seriously doubt that this can be lumped with a pay to read model where people seem willing to spend hours a day looking at similar pages. We spend a half hour weekly considering things which some of us actually purchase. I am looking at an interesting air purfier I recently bought from a rep of the company who is also a YM member. I am wearing a cap made for me special by a YM member. I do not think this is what goes on in pay to read circles.

WHY WILL OUR MODEL WORK?

Truthful answer. We will only know when it does and it has not begun. Reasonable answer: It is reasonable to think that we are now a member driven community on the Web and that we will be motivated not only to read the retail ads that are posted but when possible to patronize the advertisers. That and the resurgence of our business with the new platform and the likely gradual increase in income streams and added YM sites for products and games and so forth creates a glimmer of realization that we may well be onto something and that this is bigger than any other program that had its origin in the nether world of bizopps. We are a butterfly waiting to be released.

Were any of you ever in SFI? I was when I started in the late 90s. Think SFI with a program that actually works and a product that sells and a retail focus that will soon require a proliferation of affiliate effort. That is what I think about -- what would happen if those claimed seven million affiliates from Gery Carsonland were to nudge their way over to us?

DREAMER'S POST

Though you do not really ask questions I will respond as it seems like a question to me.

QUOTE:

Now, as you previously admitted to, most positions currently are recycled, so the $500,000, I would say $300,000 comes from recycled positions, and $200,000 comes from new purchases. If you have better numbers, or more believable numbers, I would like to hear, but I just want things to be rounded nicely.
>>>> I fail to see how this is relevant to weekly income. Our weekly income will be the total receipts for the week from all sources. It could be any amount.


So, with the new system which kills all the recycled positions, we automatically lose $300,000, so now payouts will be $200,000 per week based on new purchases, and that $35,000, and the $300,000 injections. Again, rounding numbers for simplicity.
>>>> The new system kills nothing. It will advance lesser positions according to their precedence and it will advance all that have or will reach $320 to 32 credits each in the new RFA and the income should actually rise for a number of reasons.

So, the very next day, instead of each posiiton earning $3 as suggested, if the current rate of purchase remains the same, each position will earn $1.50.
>>>> This is not even fuzzy math with due respect. Let's simply assume any figure you like for weekly income. I think a million is at least within reason.

But, you know what the beauty of this system is? Lets say there is 25,000 members, and each own 4 mature shares. Well, they realize the more shares they have the more money they'll make. So, opening week, each member buys 1,000 more $10 shares. After all, that $90/share is looking pretty damn tasty. Thats $90,000 per week that they will be raking in! Well, now each share is worth about 1/1000th than before, so each person will make the same amount as if nobody bought anymore. Who wins? Well, with kims 22%, kim pockets $55million, and each person gets the same as if nobody did anyth
>>>> Kim does not pocket millions. He has a wallet like you and me and leads a reasonably normal existence. The 22 percent is divided into admin costs which are substantial if you are biulding sites and paying programmers to create databases and launching an ad program with ten or so paid staff and so forth. 11 percent of the 22 percent goes to further our progress as a conglomerate relying on numerous income streams which we hope will increase over time. The math above is completely hypothetical and unrealistic. It is as unrealistic as basing your membership on the promise of a windfall next summer.

Just to be in your face a little, Mark Boike, our CFO, says the windfall next summer is a 10 percent solution. In other words we are still on track to be 100K members earning six figure incomes. No guarantees though. Join at your own risk.

Cheers, S

[esto]

Actually, it was not until I registered and signed up for the YM forums (not the gold, silver, and general YMMSS only forums), and posted under the cycle time thread that I got booted.

Esto, can you clear up the discrepancy between Swishnev and myself getting booted?

Thanks.

Swish had the inestimable benefit of my participation. As to why you did not, I already figured it was because I was not on the case yet. My suspicion is that you were deemed a subversive force trying to recruit members to join this forum? Had that been the case and had I been on it, I would have tried to find out if that was so. If it was, I probably would have asked you to reflect on what you would do in my place. i would have left open a channel of communication. Cheers, S

[concerned]

PAID TO READ PARALLELS.

Every paid to read thing I have looked at has paid peanuts or traded hits or otherwise been anything but what we have set out to become. We have a serious membership of partipants who have purchased wholesale advertising and that has led to the payout of over 90 million in commissions in less than two years. We have now commenced phase two which is the unveiling this week of a STA Info site and in September of our retail ad site.

You don't think 20,000 members soon to be paid weekly have the wherewithal to make our forthcoming retail site one of the most trafficked ones on the Web? I can't wait. Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly. That is 20,000,000 visits a week and I believe that is a low estimate. It is also likely that some of the admin budget will be made available to promote the site.


Don't you understand the stupidity of this marketing? You have a private area where only members can view the ads. The members get paid by the site to read the ads, and the companies pay the site to run the ads. In turn, Kim takes 22% and pays everyone else the rest. And your theory, is that all the money will be spent at the business doing the advertising.

So here is the question.

Why would a company like walmart pay Kim $1 million for advertising if they will only expect at the most $780K in sales. (this assumes that Kim takes $220K for himself, and pays everyone $780K and everyone spends the entire revenue at walmart).

Usually a company spends $1 million to generate $1 billion in sales. You want them to spend $1 million to generate at most $1 million in sales (in a perfect world where Kim keeps 0%). In that scenario, they still lose money, because they gave $1 million for ads, then paid for inventory, then sold $1 million in inventory, and have to still pay for the inventory out of other profits. The main question then is: Can you explain how you will attract the companies with large advertising budgets to lose money on YMMSS?

[Gringo]

Every paid to read thing I have looked at has paid peanuts or traded hits or otherwise been anything but what we have set out to become. We have a serious membership of partipants who have purchased wholesale advertising and that has led to the payout of over 90 million in commissions in less than two years.
Yet with all this "payout" most YMMSS members are in the red--the've put in more than they've taken out. So in terms of net profit in the readers pocket, how is YMMSS any different than any other paid to read program that pays peanuts?
I seriously doubt that this can be lumped with a pay to read model where people seem willing to spend hours a day looking at similar pages. We spend a half hour weekly considering things which some of us actually purchase. YMMSS members read the ads because they are paid to, just like all the other paid to read sites. Sometimes a sale is made just like in all paid to read sites, but overall the return on paid to read ads for advertisers is so low that the ads sell for peanuts. Again proof is in the fact that YMMSS ads sell for peanuts on the auction site. So tell me again, how is reading and getting paid for YMMSS ads different than the other paid to read sites, and why will YMMSS be hugely successful for advertisers when no other paid to read site has? If YMMSS ads are so successful, then why are YMMSS members only willing to pay 10 cents for them, and why will major advertisers spend thousands for these same ads?
If the ads so so valuable why has there been no significant retail and income generated at this point?

[esto]

Don't you understand the stupidity of this marketing? You have a private area where only members can view the ads. The members get paid by the site to read the ads, and the companies pay the site to run the ads. In turn, Kim takes 22% and pays everyone else the rest. And your theory, is that all the money will be spent at the business doing the advertising.

So here is the question.

Why would a company like walmart pay Kim $1 million for advertising if they will only expect at the most $780K in sales. (this assumes that Kim takes $220K for himself, and pays everyone $780K and everyone spends the entire revenue at walmart).

Usually a company spends $1 million to generate $1 billion in sales. You want them to spend $1 million to generate at most $1 million in sales (in a perfect world where Kim keeps 0%). In that scenario, they still lose money, because they gave $1 million for ads, then paid for inventory, then sold $1 million in inventory, and have to still pay for the inventory out of other profits. The main question then is: Can you explain how you will attract the companies with large advertising budgets to lose money on YMMSS?

Have you been reading my posts. We are going public as we speak. The days of private back office ad forums are numbered. In September we will have a public ad site. My goal is to help generate millions of unique visits a month in addition to affiliate visits. We will not get a million initially from any ad client. We will get reasonable rates for our current membership and more and more as it expands and our model proves out. Best,S

[esto]

Yet with all this "payout" most YMMSS members are in the red--the've put in more than they've taken out. So in terms of net profit in the readers pocket, how is YMMSS any different than any other paid to read program that pays peanuts?
YMMSS members read the ads because they are paid to, just like all the other paid to read sites. Sometimes a sale is made just like in all paid to read sites, but overall the return on paid to read ads for advertisers is so low that the ads sell for peanuts. Again proof is in the fact that YMMSS ads sell for peanuts on the auction site. So tell me again, how is reading and getting paid for YMMSS ads different than the other paid to read sites, and why will YMMSS be hugely successful for advertisers when no other paid to read site has? If YMMSS ads are so successful, then why are YMMSS members only willing to pay 10 cents for them, and why will major advertisers spend thousands for these same ads?
If the ads so so valuable why has there been no significant retail and income generated at this point?

It is because we have not had a retail ad program up and running. That is part of what is happening as we speak. It took us until now to build an affiliate base. It will take us a few months to get the retail side up and rubbubg as a oublic presence on the Web. It will take a year or so to get 100K members. It is all unfolding. Oh and the value of our ads will eventually make their wholesale purchase in itself highly profitable. We are on our way. Best, S

[Gringo]

We are on our way. You are headed in the same direction as now, which is continued decline due to a poor business model.

You have totally failed to distinguish why and how YMMSS is in any significant way different than the already proven lame paid to read programs that have been around for years. You continue to entice nieve people into giving money to your master Kim, under the false hopes of significant returns in the future.

Your explainations dance around the facts with convoluted, abstract inferences to a successful couple of years before the YMMSS ponzi started its relentless decline, and how everything was being built as part of progress for a glorious future.

[esto]

You are headed in the same direction as now, which is continued decline due to a poor business model.

You have totally failed to distinguish why and how YMMSS is in any significant way different than the already proven lame paid to read programs that have been around for years. You continue to entice nieve people into giving money to your master Kim, under the false hopes of significant returns in the future.

Your explainations dance around the facts with convoluted, abstract inferences to a successful couple of years before the YMMSS ponzi started its relentless decline, and how everything was being built as part of progress for a glorious future.

If I was strict I would say the questions have fallen off here and things are sort of back to unproductive assertions. Maybe we're talked out. However I will infer the question: Care to defend yourself against the charge that you have danced around the facts?
>>>> Sure. Here are a few facts. Today the beta version of our STA info site is UP. It contains a statement that we neither guarantee a level of income or advertising success. Our forums no longer have a cycle watch thread in evidence because our affiliates no longer need to think in terms of cycles. I found out for someone here the ownership of the Belize resort. It will be among the question answered by Kim tomorrow and then posted on our affiliates forum site. I was going to add that our retail ad site will be up in September and that we're working on generating mega traffic to it, but it has not happened yet. What else? We can go on our member site while they are paying commissions now. I just did. We have paid out nearly $30 million in commissions this calendar year. eBay racked up $25 miillion in its third year. I don't know. Dancing? I could say I am dancing for joy. But no. I have a lovely summer cold so I am laying back and drinking fluids and not moving much at all. But let's at least admit that YM is on the move. You do not think it will succeed. That is your privilege. You might have said the same thing of Yahoo or Google or eBay at some point. Am I justified in saying that we will thrive and flourish. Sure. I am entitled. Nothing I have seen in media lately says anything other than that we are well placed to do what we're doing and with nearly 20,000 live and proactive stake holders, I think we are a story waiting to happen. Sure. Can I tap my feet? Best.S

[Salsa]

Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly. That is 20,000,000 visits a week and I believe that is a low estimate.What on earth do you mean by this, esto? A basic term in the Web statistics world is "unique visitors," which refers to the number of unique computers that connect to a site, and each one counts only once, no matter how many times it returns to the site or how many pages/files it downloads in a given period of time (usually 24 hours). This is also the common meaning of a "unique visit." But when you say, "Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly," that can't be what you mean. What do you mean by unique visitors?

Salsa
___________

[Arzel]

What on earth do you mean by this, esto? A basic term in the Web statistics world is "unique visitors," which refers to the number of unique computers that connect to a site, and each one counts only once, no matter how many times it returns to the site or how many pages/files it downloads in a given period of time (usually 24 hours). This is also the common meaning of a "unique visit." But when you say, "Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly," that can't be what you mean. What do you mean by unique visitors?

Salsa
___________


I think that is what Esto means.

Esto, by what logic do you come to the conclusion that the average member will be able to draw 1,000 unique visitors a week?

What exactly is going to draw these visitors?

What evidience do you have that the sample of unique visitors will be without replacement (member a's 1000 visitors will be completely different than member b's 1000)?

How many unique visitors does YMMSS recieve on a weekly basis?

If you could provide that information I can do a statistical analysis to determine the expected number of uniques between similar member sites. You will also need to provide at least 4 our 5 months worth of weekly numbers to generate a good confidence interval for estimation purposes.

20,000,000 unique visitors a weeks is quite a substantial number of people, approximately 1 out of every 14 people in america every week, and I find that extremely unrealistic.

[Gringo]

Sure. Here are a few facts... Wonderful, and its a fact that a dog is an animal. You've just perfectly demonstrated my point that you dance around the questions with irrelevent facts related to what YMMSS has done in the past and unrealistic hopes for the future.

[Dreamer]

I think u guys need to forgive esto. i've come to the conclusion long ago that he is in la la land. He still believes in santa clause, cuz he believes that kim is santa.

I dont know about any of you guys here, but when sta gets its first advertiser, I'm going ot go throw a private party, since it maybe its only advertiser ever.

[drzod]

Well, if things really get moving at STA as Esto plans, I suggest that MW joins. With 20,000,000 unique visits a week just think of all the people that could be helped!

OK, enough of my sarcasm, now back to the topic of obtaining factual YMMSS/STA info from Esto.

[drzod]

Esto, you wrote: "drzod, I think your "case" came before my role was clarified as no one ever contacted me about you. I do recall some correspondence among mods about a person who evidently wanted to get kicked out. If you want back in, that is perhaps doable, assuming your purpose is not to undermine or attack YMMSS. Otherwise what would be the point? We do have hostile members I suppose. Maybe undercover ones. But I am not in favor of encouraging that."

-I do not want or need to let back in, but I appreciate the fact that you are willing to do so.

You also wrote: "Swish had the inestimable benefit of my participation. As to why you did not, I already figured it was because I was not on the case yet. My suspicion is that you were deemed a subversive force trying to recruit members to join this forum? Had that been the case and had I been on it, I would have tried to find out if that was so. If it was, I probably would have asked you to reflect on what you would do in my place. i would have left open a channel of communication. Cheers, S"

-It's nice to know that I could be deemed a "subversive force," and I will take that as a compliment. I was trying to direct members here, because no one would give me honest answers to my questions posed on the gold, silver, general, and YM forums. I believe that people should be given both sides of the issue, and be able to make up their own minds.

A startling thing for you to consider is that 95% of the people who responded to me while I was a YMMSS member felt the same way that I did. Now true this was only about 25-30 responses, but that should cause some worry on your part.

On a different note, if you were instrumental in obtaining a refund for both Swishnev and myself, I would like to thank you for doing the right thing, and being a better person than other mods who have posted here.

[esto]

What on earth do you mean by this, esto? A basic term in the Web statistics world is "unique visitors," which refers to the number of unique computers that connect to a site, and each one counts only once, no matter how many times it returns to the site or how many pages/files it downloads in a given period of time (usually 24 hours). This is also the common meaning of a "unique visit." But when you say, "Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly," that can't be what you mean. What do you mean by unique visitors?

Salsa
___________

Why can't it mean just what you say it means? This would allow for return visits but would not count every hit or every page visited as a unique visit. I would infer that a computer and a person are one in the same in this example.

[esto]

I think that is what Esto means.

Esto, by what logic do you come to the conclusion that the average member will be able to draw 1,000 unique visitors a week?

What exactly is going to draw these visitors?

What evidience do you have that the sample of unique visitors will be without replacement (member a's 1000 visitors will be completely different than member b's 1000)?

How many unique visitors does YMMSS recieve on a weekly basis?

If you could provide that information I can do a statistical analysis to determine the expected number of uniques between similar member sites. You will also need to provide at least 4 our 5 months worth of weekly numbers to generate a good confidence interval for estimation purposes.

20,000,000 unique visitors a weeks is quite a substantial number of people, approximately 1 out of every 14 people in america every week, and I find that extremely unrealistic.

How many visits do Yahoo and Google or ebay get daily?

We are talking global reach for our site so the numbers are not unrealistic. Even the US numbers are not beyond imagination.

I do not know how many we have on a daily basis at any YM site. We ae moving to explicitly public sites so the whole emphasis changes.

There are many inexpensive ways to generate traffic. I suspect we will do a good deal using Google Adwords. If you look at the way ebay does it -- which I must assume works -- I can see a similar reach for us.

I imagine Alexa can provide at least a rough estimate of traffic. How reliable I know not.

Actually one could do some truly sophisticated stuff using adwords and ensure that each 1000 visits were close to unique, just by ensuring a distribution of keywords that did not overlap. Let's say someone searching for motor fuel would not also be searching for toothpaste.

One way or another, our public ad site will be lavished with efforts to generate good traffic. I hope our entire membership participates.

Best, S

[surfer]

We have paid out nearly $30 million in commissions this calendar year. eBay racked up $25 miillion in its third year. I don't know.

No, you haven't. Yet another deceptive statistic.

Hopefully the new system won't present such over
inflated payment stats.

Making claims of over $90M in commissions paid is
deliberately misleading to any potential advertisers
because it gives the impression that affiliates have
that much available to spend on their offerings.

[Arzel]

How many visits do Yahoo and Google or ebay get daily?

YMMSS is none of those, why do you continue to compare yourself to them?


We are talking global reach for our site so the numbers are not unrealistic. Even the US numbers are not beyond imagination.

Again, I ask what logic do you use to come up with this figures?


I do not know how many we have on a daily basis at any YM site. We ae moving to explicitly public sites so the whole emphasis changes.

There are many inexpensive ways to generate traffic. I suspect we will do a good deal using Google Adwords. If you look at the way ebay does it -- which I must assume works -- I can see a similar reach for us.

You are NOT ebay. By using Google adwords there is NO way you could ever acheive results similar to Google, or Yahoo. People will have to search you out. People search ebay, they don't go to Google, type in what they want, and get a bunch of results from Ebay.

I don't mind people/companies striving to be like Google, Yahoo, or Ebay. That is a good goal to have, but to say that you will be able to acheive results like them, when you are not like them in the least just does not make sense.


I imagine Alexa can provide at least a rough estimate of traffic. How reliable I know not.

Actually one could do some truly sophisticated stuff using adwords and ensure that each 1000 visits were close to unique, just by ensuring a distribution of keywords that did not overlap. Let's say someone searching for motor fuel would not also be searching for toothpaste.

One way or another, our public ad site will be lavished with efforts to generate good traffic. I hope our entire membership participates.

Best, S

All well and good, but what is going to diferentiate member sites from all of the other chaff out there on the internet? Your potential unique visits will either be using Google or Yahoo, or maybe a smaller search engine. In any case you will only be able to reach a proportion of these visitors that actually search for something which might be covered by your member base.

I am sorry Esto, but the logic you put forth regarding unique visits is similar to the logic many YMMSS people put forth regarding the viability of YMMSS. No actual statistics to back anything up, only references to companies that are not YMMSS, and even then no statistics regarding what those companies are actually doing.

[surfer]

A couple of missed questions. ;)

Do you have any better idea on when the new
system is to be implemented?

Does Kim intend to give his affiliates a more
realistic idea of what type of income they could
expect before launching the new system?

If the new system works as I believe it will, it
will present a much more realistic view of actual
revenue since the current system of recycling
inflates the commissions paid stats dramatically.

Just by letting people know the various percentages
of position levels and the total number of current
positions in the matrix, affiliates could get a firmer
grasp of the revenue that will be needed to generate
certain weekly share values.

[esto]

YMMSS is none of those, why do you continue to compare yourself to them?



Again, I ask what logic do you use to come up with this figures?



You are NOT ebay. By using Google adwords there is NO way you could ever acheive results similar to Google, or Yahoo. People will have to search you out. People search ebay, they don't go to Google, type in what they want, and get a bunch of results from Ebay.

I don't mind people/companies striving to be like Google, Yahoo, or Ebay. That is a good goal to have, but to say that you will be able to acheive results like them, when you are not like them in the least just does not make sense.



All well and good, but what is going to diferentiate member sites from all of the other chaff out there on the internet? Your potential unique visits will either be using Google or Yahoo, or maybe a smaller search engine. In any case you will only be able to reach a proportion of these visitors that actually search for something which might be covered by your member base.

I am sorry Esto, but the logic you put forth regarding unique visits is similar to the logic many YMMSS people put forth regarding the viability of YMMSS. No actual statistics to back anything up, only references to companies that are not YMMSS, and even then no statistics regarding what those companies are actually doing.

We are like G and Y in one key way. We are supported by ad revenue.

To an implied question about commissions paid, it is well and good to say it is wrong. But why on earth would YM maintain it if it could be shown to be wrong? And what is wrong about it?

Let's jump to the new system when the RFA (Reader's Fee Account) will be total income less 22 percent. That will get paid out. Will you then say that our statement of commissions paid is a chimera, a falsehood, a lie?

Finally, driving traffic alone would be useless if the traffic did not increase advertiser's CTR and ROI. My hope is that our site will have enough appeal to generate sales from non-members as well as members. That would be the only good reason to try to generate traffic.

Best, S

[esto]

Originally Posted by surfer

Do you have any better idea on when the new
system is to be implemented?
>>>> By the end of the year. Incrementally with the retail ad site leading in September. The stasite.com is up in beta and will be keyed to affiliates to track advertiser and reseller signups.


Does Kim intend to give his affiliates a more
realistic idea of what type of income they could
expect before launching the new system?
>>>> It will depend on weekly income, but I do believe he has determined the current number of $320 positions in the system to be something like 170,000 which should give the math mavens something to chew on.

Cheers, S

[Gringo]

I am sorry Esto, but the logic you put forth regarding unique visits is similar to the logic many YMMSS people put forth regarding the viability of YMMSS. No actual statistics to back anything up, only references to companies that are not YMMSS, and even then no statistics regarding what those companies are actually doing.

Just following in the footsteps of his master. How many times has Kim talked about how much the networks make on superbowl advertising, and therefore YMMSS will earn millions from paid to read ads? :crazy:

[Arzel]

We are like G and Y in one key way. We are supported by ad revenue.


That is your answer? Come on Esto, you can do better than that. Also, that is not quite correct. Up to this point YMMSS has been supported almost wholely by the sale of "advertisement credits" to members, and that revenue is then paid partially back to members. Yahoo and Google have actual outside advertisers, and do not pay their members to search or use their email.

To say that you are the same would be like me saying I am like a car because we both are supported by Oxygen at some level.

YMMSS is nothing at all like Google or Yahoo. They could not be much more different, other than they are both on the Internet.

Compare the three.

Email service:
Yahoo - Yes
Google - Yes
YMMSS - No

Search Engine:
Yahoo - Yes (Primary)
Google - Yes (Primary)
YMMSS - No, Links to Googles Search Engine

News Source:
Yahoo - Yes, My Yahoo is a web portal for just about anthing.
Google - Yes, Although the Google web portal is not quite as nice.
YMMSS - No.

Sells Advertisement:
Yahoo - Yes, viewable by all.
Google - Yes, viewable by all.
YMMSS - Yes, Viewable by Membership.

Pays Users:
Yahoo - No, but does give free email
Google - No, but does give free email
YMMSS - Yes, Kind of at least.

PC Uses:
Yahoo - None that I am aware of
Google - Allows web like surfing of personal PC.
YMMSS - None

They are not the same.

[surfer]

To an implied question about commissions paid, it is well and good to say it is wrong. But why on earth would YM maintain it if it could be shown to be wrong? And what is wrong about it?

Let's jump to the new system when the RFA (Reader's Fee Account) will be total income less 22 percent. That will get paid out. Will you then say that our statement of commissions paid is a chimera, a falsehood, a lie?

I already stated it once, but I guess I'll state
it again. Telling potential advertisers that
YMMSS has paid out over $93M in commissions
deliberately misleads them into thinking that
they would have that much expendable income
to use on their products.

A true commissions paid total would reflect
numbers dramatically lower than what is presented
and would show advertisers exactly how little
money YMMSS affiliates have really earned on
average.

If payments based on the RFA amount are shown
as I hope, no I won't say it's a lie because it will
reflect real money paid out to those with 32 ad
credit positions and positions that are just cycling
won't be counted in the commissions paid total.

Better yet, ask any advertiser what they think
YMMSS means when it states a commissions paid
total.

[Salsa]

What on earth do you mean by this, esto? A basic term in the Web statistics world is "unique visitors," which refers to the number of unique computers that connect to a site, and each one counts only once, no matter how many times it returns to the site or how many pages/files it downloads in a given period of time (usually 24 hours). This is also the common meaning of a "unique visit." But when you say, "Let's assume that each member can generate a mere 1000 unique visits weekly," that can't be what you mean. What do you mean by unique visitors?

SalsaWhy can't it mean just what you say it means? This would allow for return visits but would not count every hit or every page visited as a unique visit. I would infer that a computer and a person are one in the same in this example.Because a multiplier of 1,000 for each of 20,000 members is an insanely optimistic projection. By questioning you, I was simply giving the benefit of the doubt that you had misspoken. At this point, I'll also point out that simply putting the word, mere in front of a number like 1,000 will not somehow, magically, make it a more attainable number. In the same way, referring to income rivers (when the classic term is income streams) will not magically turn a drip into a river. As a master wordsmith, esto, I'm sure that you recognize this. In poetry and prose, I would surely appreciate the practice. In business writing, however, it is a major red flag.

Salsa
________

[surfer]

Originally Posted by surfer

Do you have any better idea on when the new
system is to be implemented?
>>>> By the end of the year. Incrementally with the retail ad site leading in September. The stasite.com is up in beta and will be keyed to affiliates to track advertiser and reseller signups.


Does Kim intend to give his affiliates a more
realistic idea of what type of income they could
expect before launching the new system?
>>>> It will depend on weekly income, but I do believe he has determined the current number of $320 positions in the system to be something like 170,000 which should give the math mavens something to chew on.

Cheers, S


Thank you.

As a self-proclaimed "math maven", let's take
your reply to the second question and work
with it a little bit to illustrate how deceptive
the commissions paid stats can be.

The last 3 commission runs show a total of
$439,915.70 "paid". That's a weeks worth
of payments.

Under the current system, the actual amount
of real money in the CPA needed to show that
amount as paid falls somewhere between $110,000
and the $440,000 that's showing as paid.

So under the new system, one 32 ad credit would
be worth somewhere between 65 cents and $2.59
based on 170K $320 positions you gave.

It would also be interesting to know if the 170K
includes positions that are currently at $160 and
will be bumped up to $320s under the weighting
system.

These numbers are extremely vital to YMMSS
affiliates if they are to get any realistic idea
of what to expect with the new system.

If YMMSS and Kim Inman truly wanted to be
as transparent as many supporters like to claim,
the number of positions in the matrix and their
values would be readily available.

[Dreamer]

Actually, surfer, your wrong. According to sta home page, ymmss has paid out over $180million, not $93million. Get it straight.

Isnt yahoo and google publically traded companies? Dont they also sell services like web hosting, etc. Does anybody have any idea of the percentages of total revenues is made from google and yahoo based on ad revenues?

You know why it works on google and yahoo? My last search was for chess computers. With 5,000 listings, its all hit and miss, but with my search, chances are, i'm in the market to buy it. So, if somebody pays google to bump their site up for me, they have a much better chance of making a sale.

Why would anybody want to advertise on ymmss? It does not make sence. You are no search engine. You do not offer any products or services that people find useful. You claim that members make purchases from advertisers, however, you cannot provide any concrete evidence of anybody making a sale. Now, I"m not calling you a liar, or the few other poeple that have made money selling on ymmss. But if there were 10,000 ads placed and 20 of them resulted in a sale, why the hell would anybody want to do business with you?

Do you really believe any of this, or do you you realize that ymmss is failing big time and you just want to make it last a little longer so you can con more money out of people?

And, so you know, once the site becomes available to the public, I will personally contact each person who advertises on ymmss and link them to a facts page of ymmss . How its nothing more than a ponzi, and they were lied to and mislead. Thats the joy of going public, and I thank you in advance for keeping me entertained in the future, but I doubt there will ever be one company that will throw money at ymmss, so I might still remain bored.

YOu know the nice thing about the stance we take here? We dont have to waste any of our time to bring down ymmss. All an advertiser needs to do is advertise for one week, see zero results, and they wont be back. And, while many businesses are looking for ways to make more money, they will be happy to stear other businesses away from this joke.

I honestly would be suprised if the first week after the new payment systems is up that there is more than $200,000 for the week. So, better start spinning whatever you need spinned to come up with a good lie.

[surfer]

There are still some typos to be corrected
Dreamer. lol It's not an official site yet.

Quite a challenge for Mr. Hamilton to generate
enough sales to make all the affiliates' income
dreams come true.

And it is an interesting conflict of interest that
the few affiliates that are in profit with YMMSS
have to decide whether to spend money on
advertiser products or try to outpace the ever
growing number of shares that will pour into the
RFA pool every week.

I'm just waiting to see how Kim and Co. are going
to actually market the new system. He can't fix
all the lies and broken promises from the past that
brought attention to YMMSS on sites like MW. We
will simply have to wait and see if the marketing of
this flawed model is truly more responsible.

[Gringo]

So under the new system, one 32 ad credit would be worth somewhere between 65 cents and $2.59 based on 170K $320 positions you gave. Wow, best case scenario, that means the new system will double a 32 in about 2.5 years -- CT of over 800. Oh, but wait we don't need to worry about CT anymore, and we don't want use the word "double". lol Can this farce get any worse?

[Arzel]

Wow, best case scenario, that means the new system will double a 32 in about 2.5 years -- CT of over 800. Oh, but wait we don't need to worry about CT anymore, and we don't want use the word "double". lol Can this farce get any worse?

It is worse. At $2.59 a week it would take 124 weeks (2.4 years) to make back the original $320, and 247 weeks (4.8 years) to "earn" $320 dollars.

A $10 "investment" would take 450 days to start earning credits, and 8 weeks to double for a total time of about 72 weeks (1.4 years) to double in value.

[ycchen]

1.4 years = 504 days, only 5.6 times longer than the old 90 days garantee.

Still, hardcore supporters would argue that it is still better than putting your money in the bank (except you do not have to read adv.). However, the problem is that the new system is a very bad business plan with a huge baggage -- it was (still is) a matrix-ponzi system. It just won't work.

Many ex-supporters (or so-called matrix-neutral friends) of the matrix-sites used to argue that as long as the owner is "honest" -- i.e. pay everyone on time -- they don't care how long it takes to get their "free gifts" (or cash equivalent). note: I prefer to call them "sponsored gifts".

Thus, the magic word is "patience". Everyone has to be patience and should all work collectively to delete any negative posts. Only then, more "misinformed" newbies will buy their spots and cycled out the early birds.

According to this logic, there are still many matrix-sites hanging there like a ghost town. The owners remain honest (why not, they pocket 20-50% profit for every sales) since they pay every cycled members, therefore it is logical for everyone to wait .......

As the probably the largest (dead) matrix-site in the market, YMMSS supporters are doing the same thing. No negativity and be patience, and you will get your money.

With all the evidences against YMMSS, supporters need to really sit down and think. Should I do what esto and other mods tell me to do -- recruit and wait -- or should I do something else?

With our experience with matrix-sites, the answer is clear. Matrix-sites are debt-driven ponzi/pyramid scheme, therefore, every owner who run matrix-sites is dishonest. So, why would Kim be different from other owners who used exactly the same ponzi-based matrix system (or doubler, a variation of matrix, to be more precise)?

Your wait will be forever, and that is what Kim and his supporters want you to do -- don't make any noise. After silencing the disgrunted members, Kim and his gangs can continue to recruit newbies into this ponzi. Guest what, everyday, a token of members will cycled in exchange for their testimonials -- YMMSS is not dead, we still get paid, hurraaayy!!

You have a choice to make a informed decision. Don't just wait, (or worst of all -recruit and recruit) do something to help yourself and others. :)

[Dreamer]

I believe your guys's figures are so off. This projected $500k/week is based on current conditions of recycling, etc. Once recycling stops, all the monies that would have recycled will stop recycling. I think Esto himself suggested that like 65% of the payouts was recycled. So, we are looking at about 35% of the average week is what the new system will be.

[esto]

Just following in the footsteps of his master. How many times has Kim talked about how much the networks make on superbowl advertising, and therefore YMMSS will earn millions from paid to read ads? :crazy:
>>> Maybe three or four times Kim has mentioned the high cost of SB ads. And indicated that some of this revenue could be headed our way. That is nothing more or less than almost all current media are saying in relation to online advertising. We are the only outfit I know of that is doing serious engagement advertising by offering a core affiliate base that will more than likely read any ad of interest pay for doing same. Our rates will be low to begin with so the ultimate income we get will be a function of our general success. You cannot say we will not be successful. Nor can I claim with certainty that we will be. It is a choice. Reason does not dictate one at the expense of the other. Cheers, S

[esto]

Thank you.

As a self-proclaimed "math maven", let's take
your reply to the second question and work
with it a little bit to illustrate how deceptive
the commissions paid stats can be.

The last 3 commission runs show a total of
$439,915.70 "paid". That's a weeks worth
of payments.

Under the current system, the actual amount
of real money in the CPA needed to show that
amount as paid falls somewhere between $110,000
and the $440,000 that's showing as paid.

So under the new system, one 32 ad credit would
be worth somewhere between 65 cents and $2.59
based on 170K $320 positions you gave.

It would also be interesting to know if the 170K
includes positions that are currently at $160 and
will be bumped up to $320s under the weighting
system.

These numbers are extremely vital to YMMSS
affiliates if they are to get any realistic idea
of what to expect with the new system.

If YMMSS and Kim Inman truly wanted to be
as transparent as many supporters like to claim,
the number of positions in the matrix and their
values would be readily available.

Maybe a laundry list too? Come on. He has been completely forthcoming. He said $320 positions, not $160. Our weekly income is not determined for any week to come. It could be low and it could be high. Try better than a savings account. Or accept his numbers and do the math. Cheers, S

[esto]

Wow, best case scenario, that means the new system will double a 32 in about 2.5 years -- CT of over 800. Oh, but wait we don't need to worry about CT anymore, and we don't want use the word "double". lol Can this farce get any worse?

>>>> Sure it could go down to one penny if you base your figuring on someone's derogatory statement. My best case scenario is around a million a week trending upwards. Even the worst case o around $200K weekly would be better than anything out there. We have people who are planning to work this business. You do not seem to believe that and perhaps it is understandable because most of the money programs and doublers more or less put a straw in your mouth and pour while you lie on the couch and receive. I am waiting for the first intravenous money program. We never were that and now I doubt if any of our members believes that. We are gearing up to be proactive. I already am. Cheers, S

[esto]

ycchen asks:

With all the evidences against YMMSS, supporters need to really sit down and think. Should I do what esto and other mods tell me to do -- recruit and wait -- or should I do something else?
>>>> Recruit and wait. Is that what we are saying? I doubt it. recruit what? Sponsorchip is finished. We will do recruiting from our Stasite.com base -- resellers who want to earn commmissions selling retail ads and advertisers who wish to learn more about our retail ad opportunity. This new portal will be branded withour information so we canindeed earn commission on retail sales. Wait? Yes wait, but that of course does not work for those accustomed to getting everything they want now. Wait for what? Wait until we have our new pay system in place. Paying weekly income. Why wait? Because it takes time and there is an order in which we want things to roll out. We need the retail ad site up to start the income stream and it takes a month for retail advertisers to pay their bills. Why do I bother. I don't know. Taurus, I guess. Cheers, S


So, why would Kim be different from other owners who used exactly the same ponzi-based matrix system (or doubler, a variation of matrix, to be more precise)?
>>>> You started at the wrong place. Kim came out of mlm and was looking for a way to reward all participants. You will not accept or believe that but the world is full of folk who do not accept or believe a lot of things that nevertheless remain true. That is the origin of a good deal of capital punishment. Cheers, S

[esto]

Dreamer states:

Actually, surfer, your wrong. According to sta home page, ymmss has paid out over $180million, not $93million. Get it straight.
>>>> Actually this was an error. 93 million is right.

Isnt yahoo and google publically traded companies?
>>>> Yes. We pay our members, not stockholders. The similarity is that advertising is the basic profit leader.

Dont they also sell services like web hosting, etc.
>>>> They sell services, but not web hosting. We have and will sell both services and products -- cell phone and so forth.

Does anybody have any idea of the percentages of total revenues is made from google and yahoo based on ad revenues?
>>>> Start here to confirm that ad revenue drives both google's and yahoo's profits. http://www.clickz.com/news/article.php/3522061

You know why it works on google and yahoo? My last search was for chess computers. With 5,000 listings, its all hit and miss, but with my search, chances are, i'm in the market to buy it. So, if somebody pays google to bump their site up for me, they have a much better chance of making a sale.
>>>> But they will get a very small percentage of clicks, targeted though they may be. Our percentage of targeted hits will be much higher.

Why would anybody want to advertise on ymmss?
>>>> Affiliates earn commissions on wholesale ad purchases, for one thing. Retail advertisers will pay what they usually pay and find their results are better and return.

But if there were 10,000 ads placed and 20 of them resulted in a sale, why the hell would anybody want to do business with you?
>>>> I suppose this will be another "fact" quoted as truth in a subsequent post. Almost everyone who has advertised a product or service seriously in YM has gotten better response than they did in other venues. There have been many whose ads were not intended to be more than a greeting or statement of some sort. Permissable but having no bearing on results.

Do you really believe any of this, or do you you realize that ymmss is failing big time and you just want to make it last a little longer so you can con more money out of people?
>>>> I believe it is a viable business. That has paid and will pay all of its members. I believe the changes are necessary to move us into the mainstream and enable massive growth.

[surfer]

Maybe a laundry list too? Come on.
No, just something that will give those who are giving Kim
Inman money something to work with to figure out whether
it's worth their investment or not.

He has been completely forthcoming.
Right, so forthcoming that everything is the fault of "Murphy".

The man accepts no responsibility for ruining people's lives
by lying to them and making irresponsible promises and
guarantees that he didn't keep.

He said $320 positions, not $160.
Kim has said a lot of things, many of them wrong.

Our weekly income is not determined for any week to come. It could be low and it could be high.
Wow, a slight moment of common sense. Wouldn't that
have been handy when Kim Inman was recruiting people
with lies and guaranteeing income? An honest man knows
that you can't guarantee future income, yet that's what
Kim did to bring people in to the ponzi.

Try better than a savings account.
Gee, haven't heard that one before. Each week the ROI
gets closer and closer to being worth less than a savings
account.
Or accept his numbers and do the math. Cheers, S
I certainly won't "accept" anything from a man who handles
the truth so carelessly, but I will work with numbers that
are provided and those I can get on my own.

[Dreamer]

For the most part, I listened to the recordings. I still dont know who owns the resort in belize, or any info regarding its sale, and the question I asked about the lawyers, not who they are, but their credentials. What part of law do they specialize in?

[surfer]

For the most part, I listened to the recordings. I still dont know who owns the resort in belize, or any info regarding its sale, and the question I asked about the lawyers, not who they are, but their credentials. What part of law do they specialize in?

Right Dreamer. More non-answers from such a
forthcoming man.

Q-17: Who are the YMMSS Lawyers and what is the name of their firm?

Answer:
This is not difficult to determine. But I do not want our principal lawyer or any other lawyers we use to be inundated with calls and have to pay the bill for that! Members have met our principal lawyer on our first and second cruises.
Funny, that's the exact same type of excuse that
Bryan Marsden used with PIPS when asked about
banks, payment systems, etc.

Q-25: Who is the legal owner of the Belize Resort and Conference Center? And, as a follow up, can you describe our legal staff and their specialties?

Answer:
It is being bought via a private contact between The Lodge of St George, LTD and the previous owner. Our main legal council is an international lawyer. He has been appointed honorary consul of at least one foreign country. He, and we, use additional specialized legal help as needed.
lol lol A two part question with a no part answer.
Okay perhaps the second part was slightly answered.
Apparently the lawyer has no specialty.

[plc_f]

Q-17: Who are the YMMSS Lawyers and what is the name of their firm?

Answer:
This is not difficult to determine. But I do not want our principal lawyer or any other lawyers we use to be inundated with calls and have to pay the bill for that! Members have met our principal lawyer on our first and second cruises.


Perhaps esto can answer this question as he has attended on these cruises?

If it's not difficult to determine then why not state who they are? The amount of evasion and double sided answers that this man gives is incredible...just what is he trying to hide.

In all the questions over time and the answers given by Inman, he is yet to answer any of them in a direct and businesslike manner. None of these answers would satisfy even the most inexperienced inquirer.

Surely even he can see that non direct answering of legitimate and genuine questions only puts him in yet more bad light. In other word,.it accentuates the growing belief that the man is duplicitous.

plc

[Gringo]

We are the only outfit I know of that is doing serious engagement advertising by offering a core affiliate base that will more than likely read any ad of interest pay for doing same.
Get a clue. The reason you are the only one pretending like your paid to read program will break into the major corporate ad budgets is because everyone else already knows that it won't happen. We've been though this and you refuse to accept the facts, namely that paid to read programs are around now and have been around for years, and have never attracted major advertisers for the simple reason that the return on advertisers money is far inferior to other available media. You can't even convince exisiting members that the medium is worth more than 10 cents per ad since that's what is paid on the YMMSS auction.

[Dreamer]

Thanks surfer

I guess I missed the question, maybe because the answer didnt sound like an answer.

So, if I get this right, all this time when he claimed that he owned the resort, he has been lying, since it is still being bought? Which, again, goes against the info that I have. So, even this answer I believe is a lie, or at very least, he is covering something up.

Why is asking a lawyers speciality such a difficult question to answer? International lawyer? What does that mean? You mean he practices international law?

Ummm.. Okay, I start a business. I'm going to go international. Since its probably an illegial business, I need an international lawyer. I want this lawyer to be able to find and interpret laws from all 50 states, from 80+ countries, and individual laws from different states in other counteries? Does this sound unreasonable to only me?

If indeed a majority of the people live in the states, wouldn't it be a good idea to hire a lawyer in the states that specializes in business fraud, or something more specific than international law?

Maybe kim just doesnt know what area of law the person specializes in. Probably paying the guy $5/hr and trusting that he can uncover all the laws from all the states and be able to make blanket rulings over comples matters.

[esto]

For the most part, I listened to the recordings. I still dont know who owns the resort in belize, or any info regarding its sale, and the question I asked about the lawyers, not who they are, but their credentials. What part of law do they specialize in?
>>>> Some of the answers you seek are in our member forums now as the transcript has been posted. The name of the owner. Specialty was not noted nor did I ask. I doubt we would hire a lawyer whose specialy had nothing to do with what we are concerned about.

[esto]

Q-17: Who are the YMMSS Lawyers and what is the name of their firm?

Answer:
This is not difficult to determine. But I do not want our principal lawyer or any other lawyers we use to be inundated with calls and have to pay the bill for that! Members have met our principal lawyer on our first and second cruises.


Perhaps esto can answer this question as he has attended on these cruises?

If it's not difficult to determine then why not state who they are? The amount of evasion and double sided answers that this man gives is incredible...just what is he trying to hide.

In all the questions over time and the answers given by Inman, he is yet to answer any of them in a direct and businesslike manner. None of these answers would satisfy even the most inexperienced inquirer.

Surely even he can see that non direct answering of legitimate and genuine questions only puts him in yet more bad light. In other word,.it accentuates the growing belief that the man is duplicitous.

plc


Hi PLC. Lord, lord. I went to some trouble to ask the question on behalf of people here and I am getting grief. I know who the lawyer is and I certainky know him to be well versed in the laws of both the US and Belize. No I will not name him nor will I name my dad who was also a lawyer or lots of other people I could name. It is totally beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which is answer reasonable questions about STA/YM. Even unreasonable ones!

These questions have begin to diminish because the Ponzi stuff is not holding and because the level of actual discontent is limited to a few persons and because I have refused to make outlandish claims.

I merely suggest that we have always paid which we have, that we will continue to do so, and that our prospects, while not predictable in any actual sense, are reasonably good.

Cheers, S

[Dreamer]

In less than three years, we have gone from 0 to 20,000 affiliates and to more than $90 million in commissions paid.

Well, they finally got the dollar amount right. But, didn't only like 15,000 people actually fill out the survey? Maybe they'll fix that number, but i doubt it.


A fee or percentage allowed to a sales representative or an agent for services rendered.

I wonder if they will ever tell an advertiser how these people earn their money? For legit businesses, they earn money because the work they perform (sales or service) is valuable, and the business can than turn around and make money off their work.

Of course, I dont have to pay my boss for the right to earn money.


Based on our track record of growth, we will surpass 100,000 members in 2007.

Let me see...15,000 members in 3 years, 100,000/15,000 ~ 6x 3 = 21 years - 3 years = 18 years. So, 2005 + 18 years is about 2007. Good thing math isnt my strong subject!


Our members are highly motivated to purchase from our advertisers. Our experience has shown that an ad placed with STA that includes a ‘Call To Action’ is 10 times as likely to be responded to than a typical ad on a non-descript

Earning $1.25/$320 share doesnt sound like it will motivate too many people. And what experience do they have with a 'call to action'? Anybody know? They still have no statistics on the amount of ads that are responded to, even with Esto's convulated answers which i doubt that he believes. Yes, Esto, sign me up for ymmss so I can spend $320 so i can post my favorite recipe! If i had half a braint, I would go to a recipe trading forum and post it for free to people who actually want to see it, but I guess i'm just not that smart.


is better than any other form of advertising.

Hopefully they just wont ask for facts to back up such silly claims.


"We're a global people's advertising company. We pay our affiliates to read ads. They turn around and pay our advertisers for their services and products," says Mike Hamilton, STA Global Marketing Director.

Why dont' you say where the money comes from to pay people to read ads? So that the bussinesses will know that their advertising dollar will go towards paying people to read their ads, and thats the entire pool of money than can expect to get back. And, who are your advertisers?

YOu know what...I'm not even this bored anymore. I'm just going to have to start designing a website with the facts of ymmss so if any poor business is suckered into throwing away money they can get the facts about ymmss.

[Dreamer]

These questions have begin to diminish because the Ponzi stuff is not holding

The reason the ponzi stuff is not working because of your inability to answer simple and basic questions without lying and fluff, and actually answering them. I have concluded that your not answering questions of a ponzi nature because you cannot come up with any believable lies. No offense, but its hard to believe anyhing you have to say.

I dont want to know your dads name. I dont want to know your lawyers name. I want to know what area of law they specialize.

And, I knew which firm my old boss's lawyer was from. In the real world, people are not afraid to show that they have the best of the best lawyers. Its usually the people that hide behind a rinky dink lawyer who got his license from an email for $1500. Not that I'm accusing your lawyer of that. But, the resorts phone number has been on your site forever...are they induanted with phone calls all day long? What a silly answer. I call lawyers almost daily, and their receptionist picks up the phones, transfers if apprpriate or take messages. Maybe your lawyer isnt so successful that he has to answer his own phones? I'm sorry.

[Gringo]

These questions have begin to diminish because the Ponzi stuff is not holding
The questions regarding the ponzi model that YMMSS uses has diminished because your answers dance around the questions and facts with pointless and irrelevent responses. When you respond to the fact that most of the earnings of participants come from other participants money, which is what a ponzi is, with something like "we are moving in the direction of a global advertising...", or "the system worked for 2 years...", then there isn't much point in trying to discuss the facts with you.
and because the level of actual discontent is limited to a few persons In your mind. Maybe you can't see the huge level of discontent because of your policy to delete all the negative posts.
and because I have refused to make outlandish claims
Maybe not promises or guarantees, but your speculative statements regarding the growth of membership, hits to the website, and retail earnings are totally outlandish and cannot be supported by any reasonable data.

[surfer]

Hi PLC. Lord, lord. I went to some trouble to ask the question on behalf of people here and I am getting grief. I know who the lawyer is and I certainky know him to be well versed in the laws of both the US and Belize. No I will not name him nor will I name my dad who was also a lawyer or lots of other people I could name. It is totally beyond the scope of what I am trying to do here, which is answer reasonable questions about STA/YM. Even unreasonable ones!
In this case, the grief isn't entirely directed at you,
but you're the one who is here. ;)

Of course, then you choose to go on a completely
irrelevant tangent as a diversion.

And as if Kim's attorney would bill Kim if people called
him up. What a bunch of B.S. The same type of B.S.
that Marsden used in his PIPS ponzi.

These questions have begin to diminish because the Ponzi stuff is not holding and because the level of actual discontent is limited to a few persons and because I have refused to make outlandish claims.
The ponzi statements continue to hold up just fine. ;)

At this point, it's quite apparent that almost 40% of
YMMSS affiliates are discontent and don't believe in
what YMMSS claims it wants to be. And a large part
of the rest are just trying to keep from losing their
money by doing the least that they could do.

I merely suggest that we have always paid which we have, that we will continue to do so, and that our prospects, while not predictable in any actual sense, are reasonably good.
Although payments are over 6 months behind, we don't
argue that YMMSS hasn't paid a portion of its affiliates.

[Candyman]

Esto,

In a previous question I asked you if YMMSS attorneys had reviewed the laws in all 50 states regarding the legality of the commission structure and you stated that these laws were reviewed and the business model was legal. I have included a statute from the state of Georgia that clearly demonstrates that YMMSS in its present form is considered an illegal lottery in the state of Georgia. Here is the statute:

16-12-38. Chain letter clubs, pyramid clubs, and like groups as lotteries; exclusion of certain multilevel distribution companies.

The organization of any chain letter club, pyramid club, or other group organized or brought together under any plan or device whereby fees or dues or anything of material value to be paid or given by members thereof are to be paid or given to any other member thereof, which plan or device includes any provision for the increase in such membership through a chain process of new members securing other new members and thereby advancing themselves in the group to a position where such members in turn receive fees, dues, or things of material value from other members, is declared to be a lottery; and whoever shall participate in any such lottery by becoming a member of, or affiliating with, any such group or organization or whoever shall solicit any person for membership or affiliation in any such group or organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of a high and aggravated nature; provided, however, that this Code section shall not include a "multilevel distribution company," as defined in paragraph (6) of Code Section 10-1-410, which is operating in compliance with Part 3 of Article 15 of Chapter 1 of Title 10.

Since you and Kim have stated repeatedly that YMMSS is not a MLM, the exclusion in the last sentence does not apply.

Here is another statute that YMMSS has violated in Georgia:

10-1-414. Prohibited acts by sellers.

Sellers shall not:
(1) Represent that a business opportunity or multilevel program provides income or earning potential of any kind unless the seller has documented data to substantiate the claims of income or earning potential, which data shall be furnished to the administrator or his representatives upon request;

I know your response will be that the new business model was created to address concerns related to the statutes above. How do you respond to the fact that YMMSS was (still is) violating statutes with the business model and its "guarantees" in 2003 and 2004? Either your attorneys are incompetent or didn't review the laws in all states.

[Arzel]

Nice reference Candyman.

Actually the "new" model would still violate this statute because income is still being paid from members to members, and will continue to be so.

[esto]

Esto,

In a previous question I asked you if YMMSS attorneys had reviewed the laws in all 50 states regarding the legality of the commission structure and you stated that these laws were reviewed and the business model was legal. I have included a statute from the state of Georgia that clearly demonstrates that YMMSS in its present form is considered an illegal lottery in the state of Georgia. Here is the statute:

16-12-38. Chain letter clubs, pyramid clubs, and like groups as lotteries; exclusion of certain multilevel distribution companies.

The organization of any chain letter club, pyramid club, or other group organized or brought together under any plan or device whereby fees or dues or anything of material value to be paid or given by members thereof are to be paid or given to any other member thereof, which plan or device includes any provision for the increase in such membership through a chain process of new members securing other new members and thereby advancing themselves in the group to a position where such members in turn receive fees, dues, or things of material value from other members, is declared to be a lottery; and whoever shall participate in any such lottery by becoming a member of, or affiliating with, any such group or organization or whoever shall solicit any person for membership or affiliation in any such group or organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of a high and aggravated nature; provided, however, that this Code section shall not include a "multilevel distribution company," as defined in paragraph (6) of Code Section 10-1-410, which is operating in compliance with Part 3 of Article 15 of Chapter 1 of Title 10.

Since you and Kim have stated repeatedly that YMMSS is not a MLM, the exclusion in the last sentence does not apply.

Here is another statute that YMMSS has violated in Georgia:

10-1-414. Prohibited acts by sellers.

Sellers shall not:
(1) Represent that a business opportunity or multilevel program provides income or earning potential of any kind unless the seller has documented data to substantiate the claims of income or earning potential, which data shall be furnished to the administrator or his representatives upon request;

I know your response will be that the new business model was created to address concerns related to the statutes above. How do you respond to the fact that YMMSS was (still is) violating statutes with the business model and its "guarantees" in 2003 and 2004? Either your attorneys are incompetent or didn't review the laws in all states.

I do not see any violation as we are eliminating the three percent commission paid to affiliates for sponsoring other affiliates. Our sta site explicitly disavows any claim to advertising success or level of income. We are not members BTW if that is important. We are affiliates and as such are IBOs as I understand it. Best, S

[esto]

Nice reference Candyman.

Actually the "new" model would still violate this statute because income is still being paid from members to members, and will continue to be so.

We buy a product and receive a commission on OUR purchases. That is an aspect of our business. Maybe we should be a bank. A bank takes care of our money -- that is its product and then pays me a commission which is no doubt arguably paid by some other customer. So does MacDonald's when it makes change. :) Go ahead!

I believe one of our attorneys is a member of the Georgia bar. I assume he is aware of the law and sees we are in compliance with it. I am not sure this forum is entitled to issue legal judgments with the certainty I detect. I certainly am not. Best, S

[Candyman]

Esto,

As I expected you answered your question based on the new business model. Your answer suggests that the 3% commission structure was illegal in at least some states and therefore YMMSS and its members that participated during within this framework were violating the law.

Also, your selective memory does not mention that prior to May of 2004 YMMSS did in fact make make claims and guarantees of income doubling every 60-90 days.

It is very convenient of you to state that everything now is "legal" but your answers again suggest that even you agree that YMMSS and some of its members have violated US laws in at least some if not all states.

So, with all of the references from YMMSS that it is a "Christian" organization of "people helping people" does not wash with the previous claims and guarantees that appear to be against the law in many states.

How does Kim and YMMSS plan to reconcile these past sins given that his attorneys blessed the business model back in 2002, 2003 and midway through 2004 before another attorney decided it was time to eliminate these claims?

Your comment that members of this forum are not qualified to interpret law is valid but the statute that I included is self evident and does not take an attorney to interpret. Why don't you invite your attorney who belongs to the Georgia bar to respond to my question about the Georgia statutes?

Also your comment about being "affiliates" versus members is moot since if you read the statute again you notice this language that explicitly states members or affiliates are covered under the statute. Here is some of that language:

"...whoever shall participate in any such lottery by becoming a member of, or affiliating with, any such group or organization or whoever shall solicit any person for membership or affiliation in any such group or organization shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of a high and aggravated nature..."

So now that you consider yourself an affiliate to YMMSS along with any Georgia residents that are IBO's of YMMSS, it sounds like these residents are breaking the law in Georgia by participating in YMMSS (or were prior to the business model changes).

Please have your attorney provide a defense of why the Georgia statutes were not broken since I am not qualified to interpret the statute per your observation.

Thanks.

[Arzel]

Don't ever expect to know how the outside revenue is being created, even Kim's lawyers, whom he will tell very little about, don't know. It also brings in to further question just how legal the outside revenue is. It also would appear that the lawyers really don't understand the nature of YMMSS or that a vast majority of the income is from members. I suspect that they would no longer represent YMMSS if they knew.

On the Aug 4th late call at 1:09 Kim was responding to a question regarding potential outside revenue being generated through leveraging of banks by traders.

Kim was explaining that before Mark it was difficult to explain to his lawyers how the money for YMMSS works, but Mark was able to help. Here is the quote.

Kim: "Mark said (to the lawyers), 'It’s not important that you understand the money and how it’s created, it’s important that you tell us, can we protect it and is it legal (to protect the money).' The numbers and stuff is his (Mark's) responsibility”.

Esto, do you not wonder yourself how the outside revenue is being created? You have alot staked in YMMSS, does this not concern you? I know that I would be concerned if the very lawyers which are there to investigate the legailty of YMMSS do not even know how the money from which YMMSS is generated. It would appear to me that their legal advice regarding YMMSS has very little to do with the actual finacial aspect.

This actually makes alot of sense. I have long wondered why Kim's lawyers were so adament about dropping the 3% referral on all purchases, but yet would approve the basic ponzi structure that is YMMSS.

Some deductive reasoning leads me to believe YMMSS was explained to the lawyers in this manner.

[MY OPINION - NOT FACT]

YMMSS is an advertising business, by which members are paid to read advertisement. Advertisement dollars are brought in through a number of revenue streams.

1 - Outside advertisers will advertise on YMMSS to the safelist of members which agree to read advertisement for 30 minutes a week.
2 - Members also may advertise to other members in the same manner, only they are classified as affiliates since they also recieve commissions for advertising purposes.
3 - Members may also recieve commissions on advertisement dollars they bring into YMMSS.
4 - Outside revenue streams aside from advertisement are also in place to help build up the member base by providing an initial consistant source of funds for paying members to read advertisement. These outside revenue streams will take the form of several mediums, including an auction site, retail sales site, and other various forms of advertising.

When explained like this YMMSS sounds like a pretty legal business, except for the commissions paid on referrals. The lawyers most likely questioned the referral commissions in this way.

Lawyers: Do members recieve referral commissions on advertisement sold to other members?

Kim: No, members recieve a 3% commission on advertisement purchased by members which they have brought into YMMSS.

Lawyers: Similar to a MLM then?

Kim: No, there is no requirement to bring in new members, it is a reward to members that introduce other members to YMMSS. They are not required to recruit though.

Lawyers: We have a real problem with these referral commissions, it could be viewed as illegal.

Now, this is just my opinion, but it certainly fills in alot of gaps that I personally have had regarding how the lawyers would approve one aspect of YMMSS, and be so against another aspect.

Of course I could be completely wrong, but the fact that they don't know how YMMSS money (at least the outside aspect) is being generated should make just about everyone worried.

[Dreamer]

I dont understand how a commission bonus can be considered illegial, however, money changing hands, from 75% of all moneys put into the pot by members are returned to members, and the other 25% is kept for management. How is that not a pozni?

[Gringo]

Arzel makes two very good points with which I concur:

1. The YMMSS ponzi structure which supposedly has the blessing of their lawyers either has incompetent lawyers, or as Arzel demonstrated, the structure was spun in such a way when described to cloak the fundamenal ponzi model. Most of the YMMSS promotional stuff does it this way so it's not surprising that it would be presented to the attorney like this. Unless he probes and questions the description further, he could accept the false depiction of it and let it pass.

2. The source of the billions of dollars Kim is claiming that is on the way to maturing has never been revealed even in the most general categories of investment vehicles. When this specfic question was posted in the YMMSS forum most people seemed unconcerned and had blind faith in it, so there hasn't been much pressure on Kim to give more details. My education (MBA Financial Management) and expertise is in this area and I can assure you, without a doubt, that there is no legitimate passive low risk/no risk investment vehicle available in the world that can produce the kinds of returns Kim is claiming. If there was, the world would flood money into it in a flash. This means Kim was conned by another con, or he's making the whole thing up.

If it was legitimate you would think that he would at least state that it involves currency trading, real estate development, stock/option/futures, etc., but all we hear is that it's Kim's money and he takes the loss if it doesn't work out, but if it does work out the money goes into the pool.

[esto]

I have become aware of something very disturbing.

My original intent in coming here was to respond to a thread in which Kim is essentially made the victim of unsubstantiated and harmful personal statements. Somewhere in this thread I thought I read that your mods had deleted the harmful material, but I see it is still here.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=25836#post25836

Maybe you have no rules against the publication of falsehoods and unsubstantiated personal charges.

I think I have answered most of the questions to the best of my abilities and I felt the deletion of that thread represented a measure of good faith.

Seems I was wrong.

Best, S

[Dreamer]

There are still members here who are investigating the claims, and it will be silly to delete said thread. While you claim in is unsubstantiated claims, people are investigating the truthfullness of it, and have responded to it stating that they cannot find any evidence.

If there is any truth behind it, believe me, it will be shown. If there is not, it will be exposed for what it is.

I do not see anything harmful in that thread. Might you want to share what is so harmful?

Yeah, you might be wrong. I looked forward to an open debate with you where my posts would not be deleted. Have you noticed that none of your posts were deleted? Maybe you should learn from MW and see how an open dialogue can be beneficial.

I'm sorry that you answered to the best of your abilities. I hate to say, but maybe your best just isnt good enough because I dont think you helped one person here see the "light" of ymmss, and well...i have a much worse opinion on ymmss now.

Any mod can go ahead and delete this post of mine without consideration. I would like Esto to stay so maybe we can have a better idea of ymmss, however, i haven't learned a thing except that even teh ambassador is pretty much clueless.

[gypsy]

Esto

it really is a very sad state of affairs here....not only are your concerns about

your quote... Somewhere in this thread I thought I read that your mods had deleted the harmful material, but I see it is still here.
substantiated.....but after reading a considerable amount of posts here......i find SOME mods here extremly rude and vulgar in their language......but some set such a poor example to others....its just not funny

maybe if they visited YM Forums they would learn a thing or two from some of our very professional MODS

Keep up the good work Esto......see ya in YMMSS......by the way.... we would be lost without your wonderful posts that keep us so well informed

Gypsy

[Dreamer]

If you feel that some mods here are rude, you might want to respond to them or drop them a message letting them know. We are all human.

But, on the bright side, at least the mods here are not delete happy, as opposed to some other places that I wont mention..

[Salsa]

I have become aware of something very disturbing.

My original intent in coming here was to respond to a thread in which Kim is essentially made the victim of unsubstantiated and harmful personal statements. Somewhere in this thread I thought I read that your mods had deleted the harmful material, but I see it is still here.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/s...25836#post25836

Maybe you have no rules against the publication of falsehoods and unsubstantiated personal charges.

I think I have answered most of the questions to the best of my abilities and I felt the deletion of that thread represented a measure of good faith.

Seems I was wrong.Of course you were wrong! This thread has made you notorious for being wrong. Why stop now? Had you paid more attention, esto, you would have noticed long ago that no threads were ever deleted or claimed to be deleted. What was said was, "The post was quickly edited in the morning and the sensitive details were removed by the moderators."

And what is it that you are doing here, again, esto? Above you say:

My original intent in coming here was to respond to a thread in which Kim is essentially made the victim of unsubstantiated and harmful personal statements.Changed the name of the game at the middle/end, AGAIN, esto? Your stated intent when you first posted here was:

My purpose in starting this thread is to offer any member of Matrix Watch answers to any questions they may have regarding YM or Succes Through Advertising. If I do not have an answer Iwill do my best to ferret it out.I never saw you post in another thread in answer to charges against Kim, esto, and the only question that this thread has answered for me is nothing specific but rather the sum of all of your "answers." They add up to: You have no answers to support or defend YMMSS. You've provided nothing of substance, only petty feelings and opinions and excuses and a spew of YMMSS propaganda; nothing but more of the empty words that YMMSS was built on.

You were wrong? Absolutely! Heck, esto, you couldn't even get the correct impression about the editing of a post even when it was spelled out in black and white, right in front of your eyes. You believed what you wanted to believe, without substance, as usual. What possible worth could you imagine that your impression of YMMSS could have here when, by your own repeated admissions, all that you have to go on is guesses and your trust in Kim's abilities and honor? I'm still not as certain about you as I am about Kim, but if you are not one of his henchmen, you are one of his dupes.

It's bitterly amusing to me that you came here to do damage control for YMMSS. In my view, you came with a modicum of respectability but appear now to be closing as a greater fool than even Alan. I thank you, however, for helping many visitors see YMMSS for what it is, a scam.
____________

[esto]

Well, I will assume that reason has taken a back seat to ad hominems. And that it is fair to allow extremely harmful charges to be part of a supposedly reliable forum while you are "investigating" them.

Given the tone of recent notes, I doubt that the success of our company would change a single mind.

Here are some things I believe will be facts regardless how our company is misinterpreted and the subject of specious charges:

Our beta STAsite will become the principal promotional arm of our company and it will be seen by the mainstream as primarily a retail advertising company.

The company will be powered by a proactive membership capable of marketing both retail advertising and our affiliate business of reading ads.

Our STA retail site will appear in September (inevitably it too will start in a beta manner because our affiliates are essentially participants now in the finalizing of what we do). This site will begin to yield income about a month after ads start to appear, conforming with the payment pattern of advertisers.

As with our STA Portal, affiliates will help promote this site and it will become a known and reliable site carrying ads that we read and products we purchase.

Work will be completed on our new databases advancing purchases to the $320 level and entering mature positions as credits in our Readers Fee Account. Those with mature positions will soon after begin to receive weekly income based on their credits in the RFA.

My hope is that by next spring, with all these things underway, we will be firmly on course to achieve an affiliate base of 100,000.

Now you have said that my participation here has made me notorious. One would think I would have some evidence of this beyond the ad hominem comments of people here. I lead a pretty full life of which my time here has been a significant but small part over the last few weeks.

I have said in my last few notes what I have said all along. Kim is an honest and good person at the helm of a visionary effort to move beyond the midway on the Net. (This site is concerned largely with the midway, a world that will pass away.)

What I see here is a forum which does not exert control over the most vicious of personal charges, while repeating ad infinitum fixed ideas and ad hominem remarks about posters trying to speak truth. This is not a recipe for vision outside the box.

Perhaps I am being too harsh, but it is not an excuse worthy of human credence to say that you will leave false charges twisting in the wind as you engage in what will turn out to be a futile investigation. I lived through the McCarthy era. This is similar in terms of outlandish behavior though McCarthy had rather more reach.

Best,S


Cheers, S

[Dreamer]

Esto,

Will you change minds here? Probably not. But I tell you how you can.

If you can provide facts and evidence, that is what most of us are looking for. We have no reason to bash a business, but when the facts just dont add up and we have to use our own logic to form a conclusion, we would like our logic to be backed up by facts.

Saying what you believe will happen, or skirting around questions pointing out that your lawyers have said one thing to change your mind...that is not helpful.

I thank you for getting me the info regarding Belize. I do mean that. However, with the info you provided, shows that it is not all cracked up to believe.

It was common knowledge that kim bought that resort, and that the profits there were going into ymmss. Now, it is being bought? I have other information that it was already sold. If kim bought it, he is breaking a few of Belize's laws. Is that why he is now saying that its in the process? I think he is lying there. I think he bought up, with the agreement that maybe his name might not be on the deed so that he can break the law.

Is this an important point? Of course not. It just goes to show that something as insignificient as a resort in Belize has to be lied about and possibly laws are being broken, how can people trust him?

[Leonidas]

I don't claim to be an expert on YMMSS or the internet either. I do however work hard for my money and believe what I see. And what I have seen in YMMSS and Matrix watch over the past several months go hand and hand. It goes something like this.

1 Matrix Watch members talk about YMMSS going down hill and list the reasons why.

2 YMMSS members come in and say Matrix watch Members are bashers and don't know what they are talking about but can't give any facts for their side of the argument.

3 99% of the things Matrix Watch members said would happen is happening or already happened.

4 YMMSS members come back in denial and say that Matrix Watch members weren't right, Kim had another dream from God that said he should change the business.

And so on. It is an endless cycle of excuses and broken promises. Yet people continue to invest their hard earned money. :cool:

[Gringo]

Here are some things I believe will be facts regardless how our company is misinterpreted and the subject of specious charges:
We've also seen your speculations on what "will be facts" at the YMMSS forum with respect to continously revised predictions on how the cycle times would peak out and drop. You were totally wrong. Members here predicted continous rising CT until eventually the system would colapse or have to be restructured. We were right. Funny how you prohibited any negative postings on YMMSS regarding speculation, but how the ones you did permit all turned out wrong. You want to know how members really feel at this point? Set up a members only, unmoderated topic called simply "Complaints". You'll quickly find out large and strong the discontent is.
I know the concept of a non-censored forum is foreign to you, but you can't impose your censorship philosophy on others.
Well, I will assume that reason has taken a back seat to ad hominems.
Kim has been accused of being a liar, con man/scammer. Postings in this thread use documented FACTS from YMMSS forums, conference call transcripts, and literature PROVING that Kim has lied on several occasions on significant areas of the operations and structure of YMMSS.
As to whether he is a con man or just accidentally came up with a ponzi based business that he honestly thought would work in the long run? Oh and thought it would be a good idea to set it up offshore, oh and use IntGold and other ponzi/matrix/doubler friendly payment systems instead of a legitimate merchant account or even PayPal to sell EPCs with, just because, well just because that's how honest businesses do it? Reason has hardly take a back seat here, except in your own mind. In fact it's quite resonable to conclude that Kim desgined YMMSS knowing that he could not deliver a perpetual 60 - 90 day doubling of money, and therefore is a CON MAN.

[esto]

Somewhere back in this thread is a brief exchange between two MW folks followed by a thank you from me. It seems to say that the derogatory material regarding Kim had been removed and that it was the customary thing to do. That would not be censorship. It would be placing some limits on a public forum's notion of how far it can go in allowing its members to personally smear someone. This thread has deteriorated into ad hominems. They have been one sided. I do not have any reason to be negative regarding anyone who has posted here. Other than to be sorry to have seen some of contents of some of the posts. They are not things I would be proud of on a rational day. Best, S

[Arzel]

Somewhere back in this thread is a brief exchange between two MW folks followed by a thank you from me. It seems to say that the derogatory material regarding Kim had been removed and that it was the customary thing to do. That would not be censorship. It would be placing some limits on a public forum's notion of how far it can go in allowing its members to personally smear someone. This thread has deteriorated into ad hominems. They have been one sided. I do not have any reason to be negative regarding anyone who has posted here. Other than to be sorry to have seen some of contents of some of the posts. They are not things I would be proud of on a rational day. Best, S

Esto,

Are you upset that some individuals are looking into the possible court records of Kim?

Are you upset that some individuals have made claims that Kim was involved in some prior nefarious activites?

One person made a claim that Kim has a history of scamming people, and that the information is located in court records in his home town. Other people attempted to verify this claim by actually going to the town and talking to people and attempting research.

The result of that research turned up no evidence.

The original individual still claims that the evidence exists.

Now I don't know the entire motivation of the original poster, but to just delete the thread would serve no purpose, especially now that no evidence has been found. To do so would make it look like we are hiding that truth, much like YMMSS tries to hide anything negative about YMMSS on it's own forums.

If Kim cannot handle this kind of inquery, perhaps he should try a different business. He has invited this scrutiny himself by making unreasonable promises regarding 90 day cycle times, and the secrecy regarding outside income and other various aspects of YMMSS.

[Gringo]

This thread has deteriorated into ad hominems. Where are these ad hominems? Who is saying YMMSS is a scam because Kim is a bad person? I see post after post from myself and other members here arguing that YMMSS is a scam because how it is structured and run not because of the character of Kim. Kim's character is questionable for setting up and continuing to run the scam. That is not an ad hominem.

[thinkaboutit]

just a small question for esto.

i still see alan log in as kolotwics on this board but he never post anymore . i was just wandering if you instructed him to refrain from posting because you saw that he was doing more harm for ym than good?

[surfer]

A bit OT, but for those of us with slower minds
who don't know what the hell some of these
Latin based terms like ad hominem mean,
you can go read about Logical Fallacies and
the Art of Debate (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html). ;)

After reading that page, it appears the whole
November 18 excuse falls under the term
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Post%20hoc%20ergo%20propter%20hoc) lol

As Arzel stated, Kim has put himself out there
for scrutiny by claiming that he has designed
a system whereThere will be only WINNERS and NO LOSERS with our system.
And while his miraculous system is faltering,
Kim still makes money hand over fist while
selling a dream.

While the considerable amount of time Esto
spent here was appreciated, he remains unable
to answer any questions about the viability of
YMMSS over the long haul.

He has no counter to the argument that it is
impossible to maintain share values at a certain
level when the number of shares is unlimited and
more will pour in to the RFA each week.

Even under the new system, YMMSS remains a
ponzi structure because new member money is
the primary source used to pay off older members
and the "product" is primarily purchased because
of the income claims attached to it.

[Truth]

Thanks for sharing this Surfer.
I'm not attacking esto here but if you think using
all those terms to debate a ponzi is a bit much
trying reading esto's success notes on Ymmss.

:crazy:

It really makes you think if esto is really trying to convince
HIMSELF that Ymmss is legit.
And the constant comparing of Ymmss and Ebay is totally
off.
Comparing Ymmss and Charles ponzi. Well that is more in line.
At least they both have something in common. :D

I still cannot for the life of me comprehend how so many ymmss
members still have blind faith in Kim and Ymmss.
I really think the members in ymmss have a cult mentality
with a religious flavor.
Many ymmss members are very religious and believe because
Kim is a Christian and received the idea for Ymmss from god in
a dream that is MUST be legit.
I truly believe Kim is using the inherent need of most people
to attach onto a belief and believe in something. Most
ymmss members have attached themselves to this blind faith
in ymmss and I fear will not let go and see the light until
Ymmss is shut down or crashes.

What makes me even more sick is the fact that Kim Inman has
changed the pay structure of ymmss and will probably
continue on for quite some time sucking more money from current
and new members until he is shut down or the thing crashes.
I really wish the authorities would step in. However I don't think
that will happen anytime soon. The fact the something needs
to happen to stop this illegal ponzi from hurting more people is
exactly why we here at MW continue the fight. If we
save just 1 person from losing everything (their hopes, dreams, life savings)
to ymmss, then it's all worth it.

I must stress again.
When Kim started ymmss back in 2002. He HAD to know
that he could not - Repeat - Could NOT double money forever
in 90 days cycles or less. Yet he not only promised this he
"Guaranteed" it. Which obviously he lied on.
Lies, false promises and the list goes on and on. :head:
This is exactly why we call Kim inman a CON MAN

There is no logic to ymmss members who blindly believe.
There is no math taken into account. Otherwise they would
clearly see Ymmss is not a possiblilty mathmatically. Under
the current/old or new system.

What is see with this new system is just a way for Kim
to drag out ymmss and bring in more money for himself.
It's quite sickening.

Thousands of lives have been hurt and damaged by Kim Inman. How many more people must he hurt?
:shake:

[esto]

I am glad to know that independent investigation showed no evidence as there is none. In light of that I would think a public site giving space to false personal accusations would represent some sort of liability.

Alan and anyone else from STA/YM is free to write anything anywhere they want. I feel that YM folk writing here should bend over backwards not to engage in confrontational behavior no matter how provoked. It has been a while since I walked civil rights lines but that is something I believe in even if I am not very good at it sometimes.

Kim has strengths of character and leadership that were essential to our getting started and that sustain us now. But if you want to get a more contemporary view you should also be looking at others who are assuming roles in the company and whose talents are definitely a supplement -- in areas of advertising and financial management. I think we will continue to grow and that within a year we will be so identified with online advertising that this Forum's evident preocccupation with us wo;;seem ever and ever more far-fetched.

Thanks for indicating that your members have found the charges to be without substance.

I have actually enjoyed this and I will miss it but I think we have identified impasses and that there would be little purpose served in reiterating the same arguments over and over.

Best, S

[Salsa]

Somewhere back in this thread is a brief exchange between two MW folks followed by a thank you from me. It seems to say that the derogatory material regarding Kim had been removed and that it was the customary thing to do.In my previous post, I quoted exactly what was said, and it was very clear. There was no "seems to say" about it. Before derogating MW members for seeming to mislead you, why simply try to support your claim with a vague memory? Why don't you get off your butt and go see exactly what was said? Here is a case where the facts of what was said are in black and white and are readily available. Considering that you are so ready to blame others for your own denial of the facts of what was said and that you prefer to "feel" that you were mislead by MW members, it's no wonder that it's been so easy for Kim Inman to mislead you.

This thread has deteriorated into ad hominems. They have been one sided. I do not have any reason to be negative regarding anyone who has posted here. Other than to be sorry to have seen some of contents of some of the posts. They are not things I would be proud of on a rational day.This thread has not deteriorated into ad hominems. Your contribution has been ad hominems from beginning to end--with Kim and cohorts, mostly, as the objects. That you could object to any of the allegations made here about Kim is preposterous in the face of your own allegations about him--that he is a good and trustworthy man--while you and he lead thousands to financial loss and even ruin in an obvious scam.

You speak of having a "rational day," but I question that you even know what one is--at least in the context of YMMSS. Is this an ad hominem on my part? No! My factual evidence is this thread! In this thread, you have offered no rational defense of YMMSS, as any rational reader can see and as has been pointed out again and again by other posters. Yes, you are very good at rationalizing your position on YMMSS, esto, but rationalizing something and being rational about it are two very different things. I'm not sure that you know the difference, and if you do, it is clear that you are only hoping to bamboozle those visitors who don't.

Salsa
_________

[Salsa]

I am glad to know that independent investigation showed no evidence as there is none.How do you know that for sure? Have you been to the Knox County Courthouse and done an exhaustive investigation?

Actually, my understanding of the investigation's status is that it is not yet complete. The alleged insurance fraud cases were 7-10 years ago, and those records have not yet been researched.

Salsa
__________

[Dreamer]

My only question is how come the Mods aat MW didnt delete all of Esto's notes? I mean he doesnt agree with us, so how come they werent deleted within a couple hours, so that maybe Esto can feel more at home?

I like how ymmss is not a ponzi, and yet in esto's "success notes" he flat out admits its a ponzi when he said all the money I get comes from you and all the money you get comes from me.

[quote[
Kim has strengths of character and leadership
[/quote]
If those are his strengths, ymmss members should run away now. His character and motivation and, frankly, his intelligence are in question. I believe somebodys character goes down the drain when they are caught lying and dont have a good excuse. Character? Thats his best quality?

Maybe your right about leadership. Any conman is good at telling people what they want to hear so they will give him their money and follow him.

There are 2 things I hope for.

1. You are 100% correct, and somehow kim is able to steal $1billion a year from advertisers to pay off his ponzi.

2. Kim gets caught and does time, and I hope you are on the lawsuit with him by heavily promitting fradulant activities.

[Gringo]

I think we will continue to grow and that within a year we will be so identified with online advertising that this Forum's evident preocccupation with us wo;;seem ever and ever more far-fetched. And I think that by the end of this year it will be painfully obvious that there is no corporate interest in your retail paid to read ads. Once again your predictions of YMMSS success have been horribly wrong, while predictions here of continued YMMSS decline have been quite accurate. Not because we're any great psychics, it's just plain common sense and elementary math.

[esto]

We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly and if our retail ad site is bringing in an amount equal to or exceeding either of our two other major income streams, and if Kim turns out to not have been all of the things you have been saying or allowing to be said, including the false allegations, and if I am still here, as I may be old enough to have children the age of many or most here, then you will at least say, without prejudice, I had a point or two. If these things do not turn out to be as suggested, save my presence here, then I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future. Cheers, S

[Salsa]

I'm with you 100% on that one, esto, and I truly do wish that you could be correct in your faith in YMMSS. It would solve a lot of problems for the many people currently in its clutches. I can see no possible way that you are, however, and that's just the reality of it. And don't "kid" ;) me. You may have a few years on me, but at least I'm older and wiser than Kim, and it's not too difficult for me to see right through him.

Salsa
_______

[ycchen]

We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly and if our retail ad site is bringing in an amount equal to or exceeding either of our two other major income streams, and if Kim turns out to not have been all of the things you have been saying or allowing to be said, including the false allegations, and if I am still here, as I may be old enough to have children the age of many or most here, then you will at least say, without prejudice, I had a point or two. If these things do not turn out to be as suggested, save my presence here, then I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future. Cheers, SConcede? Is that your only responsibility? What about hundreds of people that you recruit or "invite" into YMMSS with the promise (gaurantee) of cycling forever? :shake:

[Dreamer]

Concede? Is that your only responsibility? What about hundreds of people that you recruit or "invite" into YMMSS with the promise (gaurantee) of cycling forever?

He already has enough of their money thru commissions and for his positions cycling, so it really doesnt matter. The most important things is that his positions cycled plenty of times, and now that the CT is just so high, he will continue to benefit by getting paid weekly.

[Arzel]

We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly and if our retail ad site is bringing in an amount equal to or exceeding either of our two other major income streams, and if Kim turns out to not have been all of the things you have been saying or allowing to be said, including the false allegations, and if I am still here, as I may be old enough to have children the age of many or most here, then you will at least say, without prejudice, I had a point or two. If these things do not turn out to be as suggested, save my presence here, then I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future. Cheers, S

Why wait a year? Why not come back in a couple of months (when the new system is up) so we can talk about how badly the new system is doing.

[Gringo]

If these things do not turn out to be as suggested, save my presence here, then I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future.
I rather doubt that we will ever get a concession from you regardless of the financial state of YMMSS. Here's why, as long as Kim can come up with an excuse and have an even better plan to fix things, you will swallow whatever he feeds you. A perfect example is the current situation. YMMSS has failed to deliver on the 60 - 90 day doubling. The ponzi has slid into ever increasing CT has we all knew it would as a mathmatical certainty. Did we get a consession from you that the whole thing was doomed to this end from day 1? No, of course not. Why? Becuase you choose to believe what Kim tells you rather than think rationally, objectively and indepedently. This can be seen all the time in all areas of life. Despite overwhelming factual evidence, people continue to believe what they want to believe. The cognative dissonance is just too painful to cause them to change their thinking, so the excuses and rationalizations are made.

All Kim has to say is something like, "Well our plan is solid, but it turns out we aren't attacting the advertisers as we had hoped because our membership size really needs to be at least 100,000 to even get us going. So what I've done is come up with a plan to rapidly increase our size. Our STA will be on hold until we get the numbers up to make it work. Here's how our membership size will explode in the next few months, and we will all earn some good income in the process..."
Would you concede failure of the paid to read program with the above scenario? I think not. More likely you would gloss over it, and hale Kim as a business genius for coming up with a solution and an even better plan.

[Leonidas]

All Kim has to say is something like, "Well our plan is solid, but it turns out we aren't attacting the advertisers as we had hoped because our membership size really needs to be at least 100,000 to even get us going. So what I've done is come up with a plan to rapidly increase our size. Our STA will be on hold until we get the numbers up to make it work. Here's how our membership size will explode in the next few months, and we will all earn some good income in the process..."

Yes, I can see those exact words coming out of Kim's mouth when there are no retailers to be found.

Esto, I am only familiar with you through your post here. I was wondering about your past. How many other online MLM's have you been involved in? How many of these did you claim were legit until they folded? How many people did you drag into those schemes before they went under?

If your answer is even 1, then why would anyone believe a word you say?

L

[concerned]

We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly

We don't care if YOU are getting paid. What we really want to know is if ALL MEMBERS are getting paid an equal amount. Don't come back here in a year and tell us that you got paid, when 249,999 others aren't. That doesn't prove anything, except that you are in the pockets of the scammers, {oops i meant to say owners}

[esto]

Hmmm. I have been involved in lots of things as have most of the people who were early members of YM. That some of these failed or were inadequate is no argument regarding the success or failure of YM. There are companies I am involved in now that are perfectly decent. The involvement is minor but you can check out Natural Longevity and Young Living Essential Oils. I have also been involved in Melaleuca which works well for some distributors and has excellent products. Likewise Nutronix. I started in SFI as did many persons. It is still around. As to coming back in a year I naturally believe ALL members who are qualified with $320 positions will be being paid. I would assume our weekly payments will be being made in this calendar year though I believe in a year from now they will have risen considerably. Will we not get retail and focus group income? With a sales force of several thousand and a good retail ad site I believe the answer is yes. But what I believe is irrelevant. The facts will speak for themselves I am sure. Best, S

[esto]

He already has enough of their money thru commissions and for his positions cycling, so it really doesnt matter. The most important things is that his positions cycled plenty of times, and now that the CT is just so high, he will continue to benefit by getting paid weekly.

I appreciate having someone who is so acquainted with my personal finances that he can provide truthful reflections based on the facts. But you really have no idea. I know exactly what I have done and I have no obligation to defend it here even against entirely false statements. Best, S

[Arzel]

Hmmm. I have been involved in lots of things as have most of the people who were early members of YM. That some of these failed or were inadequate is no argument regarding the success or failure of YM. There are companies I am involved in now that are perfectly decent. The involvement is minor but you can check out Natural Longevity and Young Living Essential Oils. I have also been involved in Melaleuca which works well for some distributors and has excellent products. Likewise Nutronix. I started in SFI as did many persons. It is still around. As to coming back in a year I naturally believe ALL members who are qualified with $320 positions will be being paid. I would assume our weekly payments will be being made in this calendar year though I believe in a year from now they will have risen considerably. Will we not get retail and focus group income? With a sales force of several thousand and a good retail ad site I believe the answer is yes. But what I believe is irrelevant. The facts will speak for themselves I am sure. Best, S

Why is it you speak of facts to back you up in a year, yet you disregard the current facts that show YMMSS to be a failed ponzi? Since the weekly pay will be based off the same model as the current cycle, I see no reason for you to believe YMMSS to be better off in a year.

I read your most recent remarks on the YM Forums, I didn't realize 17,000 plus had completed the survey, seems a little high based off previous estimates, how did you determine such an exact figure?

Finally, your wordsmithing is quite amazing in that post as well, if you were to use you abilities to help people stay away from scams like these you would be able to help far more people than you would ever be able to claim to help by getting to join, and the end reward would be better.

[esto]

I have never had a situation -- including several recent years working for UNICEF and as editor of the UN's flagship magazine CHOICES (UNDP) -- when my abilities seemed to be more appropriately used. Indeed YMMSS is an amazing place in terms of the constellation of talents needed to take an idea and make it unfold over time. My notes about the year to come would be amazing to me if I read them cold. What business do I have suggesting that we will have a site among the web's most popular?

All I can say is I am having a daily adventure, I enjoy it and, incidentally, I continue to get paid. I have been paid twice this week in fact. It will be much better when we move to the new system. I also got a note from one of the people I sponsored that he had gotten paid on five $320s. The current pay system will change obviously and more funds will go into the weekly payouts because none will go into the cycling and the three percent will be gone.

If you are reading our forums you will note that cycle time talk has diminished and that proactive threads like MARKETING 101 are bringing forward excellent input. And that we are not just Kim and company but all of us.

If I wanted to be opposed to YMMSS I would say hey isn't this a movement of some sort and isn't it sort of like the Mormons? Religious but with a commercial edge? Well in addition to being a writer I am a writer who has done some extensive work on religious movements among the books I have written. I think there is some movement there, but I think it is healthy and positive and believe me if I saw any of the characteristics in any leader that I am perfectly aware of in some of the movements I've written about, I would be out of there.

Happily I have no such fears. We have talents. We have resources. We have vision and we have plans that are unfolding on schedule. We are even in a position now to face down Murphy should he raise his ugly head. Cheers, S

[swishnev]

Esto, numbers don't lie. YMMSS is not making it, they are not a successful business in the sense they are not meeting their goals. If YMMSS was a publicly owned company, it's stock would be very low at this point. Simple as that. I"ve noticed in the past few days that YMMSS members have come over to Matrix Watch to give their endorsement of YMMSS, and I think that's great. When you come over here though, come with something to back up what you are saying.

[swishnev]

Esto, also if your plans are unfolding on schedule how's that debit card coming along, the potential advertising contract with OnStar, and the oldy, but goody server situation coming along these days? What calendar are you using for your schedule?

[Salsa]

I have never had a situation -- including several recent years working for UNICEF and as editor of the UN's flagship magazine CHOICES (UNDP) -- when my abilities seemed to be more appropriately used. Indeed YMMSS is an amazing place in terms of the constellation of talents needed to take an idea and make it unfold over time. My notes about the year to come would be amazing to me if I read them cold. What business do I have suggesting that we will have a site among the web's most popular?

All I can say is I am having a daily adventure, I enjoy it and, incidentally, I continue to get paid. I have been paid twice this week in fact. It will be much better when we move to the new system. I also got a note from one of the people I sponsored that he had gotten paid on five $320s. The current pay system will change obviously and more funds will go into the weekly payouts because none will go into the cycling and the three percent will be gone.

If you are reading our forums you will note that cycle time talk has diminished and that proactive threads like MARKETING 101 are bringing forward excellent input. And that we are not just Kim and company but all of us.

If I wanted to be opposed to YMMSS I would say hey isn't this a movement of some sort and isn't it sort of like the Mormons? Religious but with a commercial edge? Well in addition to being a writer I am a writer who has done some extensive work on religious movements among the books I have written. I think there is some movement there, but I think it is healthy and positive and believe me if I saw any of the characteristics in any leader that I am perfectly aware of in some of the movements I've written about, I would be out of there.

Happily I have no such fears. We have talents. We have resources. We have vision and we have plans that are unfolding on schedule. We are even in a position now to face down Murphy should he raise his ugly head. Cheers, SI thought you weren't coming back for a year. You should have quit before you got even farther behind. Please come back when you have more to contribute than more hot air.

When you do return to admit that you were wrong about YMMSS, as promised, I should also hope that you have the moral fortitude to distribute your take from the scam among the 20,000+ members who have lost money to YMMSS due to the lies and false promises that you have promoted.

In any case, when it is all over and Kim and his take are safe in Belize, in New York City you will not be so safe from the courts as he. Whether you are knowingly championing the scam out of personal greed or are merely a blind puppet of Kim's will matter little.

Salsa
________

[esto]

Golly I leave for a day and noww I find a whole new roster of posters and bets a plenty. There must be some science of thread dynamics explaining what they become after a while. I found myself wondering if this forum will be extant in 10 years.

I will not propose a bet. I will just say perhaps not.

I think the premise of this forum is good -- to root out scams. I think its preoccupation with YM is an example of trying to fathom success when it looks like the enemy but in fact has enough distinguishing features to escape the tarred brush, though of course the tarring and feathering persists, quite ineffectively.

There are two reasons why MW might not be here in a decade. One would be in the event that someone effectively challenged what were found to be defamatory statements and it became economically inadviseable to continue.

Another, perhaps more likely, would be in the event that most of the scams cited are here no longer. Most of the scams will be foundout and gone in 10 years I think.

Will YM be here in ten years?

If it is, it will probably be known as STA, though YM will persist as a name. My guess it that it will be, and oddly I believe the reason is the very thing that seems to most irritate folk here. The Taurean character of our founder Kim Inman.

I do not think Kim is like me a Taurus but he fits the astrological profile. I do not think when we succeed that Kim will allow us to be bought out. I do not think when we are urged to, we will ever have an IPO. If we are here in ten years it will be because everything happened according to plan.

Even the transition that has given rise to vitriolic criticism and a relatively small amount of disaffection will be seen as an essential development on the road to phenomenal success.

Face it, nothing in life is certain, but ever since this thread began we have been moving. And now you see in our forums a virtual seminar in what we will be doing to promote our public STA incarnation. Members realize now that they are part of the success picture.

No more babes sucking on the pacifier of hype marketing and expecting yuppie-style instant gratification. Nope, participation in a mega development online.

And you know why. Because we are a free people. Change takes place. And our ideas matter. That's something the Web reminds us of.

Cheers, S

[esto]

Apologies, I read wrong. I thought this was the end of a thread I started. My post is relevant but misplaced. Cheers, S

Esto - I moved your misplaced post to this thread.

-Arzel

[esto]

Esto, also if your plans are unfolding on schedule how's that debit card coming along, the potential advertising contract with OnStar, and the oldy, but goody server situation coming along these days? What calendar are you using for your schedule?

I am not aware of the potential ad contract you mention. The server seems to be working fine now and with weekly processing on the way we will not have strains -- at least far as I know. I am working on a calendar that I am aware of. My hope is that by month's end our STA Portal site will be complete or nearing completion -- though it will continue to have added resources. My hope is that in September our BETA Retail Ad Site will be up and ready to display bothretail and our wholesale ads. And that within a month of that we will see a new back office in place with weekly payment and 90 day advances on wholesale ad product purchases.

Best, S

[esto]

I thought you weren't coming back for a year. You should have quit before you got even farther behind. Please come back when you have more to contribute than more hot air.

When you do return to admit that you were wrong about YMMSS, as promised, I should also hope that you have the moral fortitude to distribute your take from the scam among the 20,000+ members who have lost money to YMMSS due to the lies and false promises that you have promoted.

In any case, when it is all over and Kim and his take are safe in Belize, in New York City you will not be so safe from the courts as he. Whether you are knowingly championing the scam out of personal greed or are merely a blind puppet of Kim's will matter little.

Salsa
________

Wow, there are some intelligent folk here who might have taken what I said as of some interest. Would you call your note gracious? Maybe you are too young to remember Robert Welch's classic rejoinder to Senator McCarthy. The two options you suggest in your last sentence are not indicative of my stance or place in YMMSS. I expect to be quite successful in STA/YM as a result, in some part, of my own efforts. I stand by my original Success Notes, my notes here and would happily have anyone read this thread and determine where the truth might lie. Best, S

[Arzel]

Golly I leave for a day and noww I find a whole new roster of posters and bets a plenty. There must be some science of thread dynamics explaining what they become after a while. I found myself wondering if this forum will be extant in 10 years.

I will not propose a bet. I will just say perhaps not.

MW may or may not be around in 10 years, it most certainly won't be the same as it is now if it is. Scams come and go, but there is always someone trying to start a new ponzi/matrix scam. It is just too lucrative of a scam for scammers to never try again. The makeup of this site (assuming it is around) will most likely be different as well. It is somewhat of a draining experience trying to explain scams to people, and new people are always needed to help with such a cause.


I think the premise of this forum is good -- to root out scams. I think its preoccupation with YM is an example of trying to fathom success when it looks like the enemy but in fact has enough distinguishing features to escape the tarred brush, though of course the tarring and feathering persists, quite ineffectively.


YM is a matrix, one of the primary types of scams from which this site was born.



There are two reasons why MW might not be here in a decade. One would be in the event that someone effectively challenged what were found to be defamatory statements and it became economically inadviseable to continue.


I find this highly unlikely. First amendment rights provide a great deal of freedom regarding personal opinion. Since it has already been proven that the matrix/ponzi model does not work mathmatically and the US, among other countries, have declared ponzi's illegal any legal challenge would be quite interesting. Since we are careful not to identify any business as a Matrix or Ponzi unless significant evidence exists, there is little worry about the owner of one of these sites bringing a legal challenge.


Another, perhaps more likely, would be in the event that most of the scams cited are here no longer. Most of the scams will be foundout and gone in 10 years I think.


If would be great if there were no more scams, but I am sure others will come along to fill YM's shoes. EZWBD and PIPS are just a couple of the other large scams which will or are having the same problems as YMMSS.


Will YM be here in ten years?

If it is, it will probably be known as STA, though YM will persist as a name. My guess it that it will be, and oddly I believe the reason is the very thing that seems to most irritate folk here. The Taurean character of our founder Kim Inman.

I do not think Kim is like me a Taurus but he fits the astrological profile. I do not think when we succeed that Kim will allow us to be bought out. I do not think when we are urged to, we will ever have an IPO. If we are here in ten years it will be because everything happened according to plan.


No there will be no IPO, because YM would have to open it's books, and then everyone would know that it is a Ponzi. I really don't know how you could say that YM would have suceeded according to plan, when the plan has already been changed a number of times. I suppose though if you keep changing the plan and say that that was the plan all along than no one can ever say you aren't following the plan. :rolleyes:


Even the transition that has given rise to vitriolic criticism and a relatively small amount of disaffection will be seen as an essential development on the road to phenomenal success.


YM should first have some success before it starts to think about phenomenal success.


Face it, nothing in life is certain, but ever since this thread began we have been moving. And now you see in our forums a virtual seminar in what we will be doing to promote our public STA incarnation. Members realize now that they are part of the success picture.


Very little is certain, that is true. But there are some things which are certain. Ponzies will always fail. Everything that has a beginning must have an end. It is not possible for everyone to win.


No more babes sucking on the pacifier of hype marketing and expecting yuppie-style instant gratification. Nope, participation in a mega development online.

And you know why. Because we are a free people. Change takes place. And our ideas matter. That's something the Web reminds us of.

Cheers, S

Perhaps YMMSS should have started off with a member base that wasn't intent on instant gratification. You know as well as most that the majority of your introducties will jump to the next sinking lead ship that is plated in gold.

[Gringo]

I enjoy it and, incidentally, I continue to get paid. I have been paid twice this week in fact. It will be much better when we move to the new system. I also got a note from one of the people I sponsored that he had gotten paid on five $320s. We hear this all the time from the minority of people that have been paid from a ponzi/matrix. As if it is some kind of proof of legitimacy. WHAT ABOUT THE VAST MAJORITY THAT HAVE NOT BEEN PAID IN ACCORD WITH KIM'S REPRESENTATION THAT THEY WOULD DOUBLE THEIR MONEY EVERY 60 - 90 DAYS?

Uh, let me guess, better times ahead..., everything going according to plan..., the solid foundation has been built...[Enter more B.S. here]

[bigdaddy]

Quote: Surfer. Without full details on the new system, it's
difficult to analyze anything specific.

Above is a reflection of the MW Rotweiler ethic regarding YM and it's character assasination of Kim Inman.

Fusty with allegations:

No hard evidence:

Esto fronts to enlighten and imbue and you chew on him.

He didn't deserve that.

Again I repeat, go release some battery chickens; sublimate your frustration into something useful.

Matrix Watch=Fluff and nonsense.

Bigdaddy

[drzod]

Big Daddy, what is it with you and "Rotweilers" and "battery chickens?" You have posted the same odd references in three different threads.

Just say what is on your mind. If not, I would like to think we could start some type of video game with dogs and chickens that would be very entertaining.

This thread is about Esto explaining YMMSS/STA, please continue to let him do so.

[Salsa]

I have never had a situation -- including several recent years working for UNICEF and as editor of the UN's flagship magazine CHOICES (UNDP) -- when my abilities seemed to be more appropriately used. Indeed YMMSS is an amazing place in terms of the constellation of talents needed to take an idea and make it unfold over time. My notes about the year to come would be amazing to me if I read them cold. What business do I have suggesting that we will have a site among the web's most popular?

All I can say is I am having a daily adventure, I enjoy it and, incidentally, I continue to get paid. I have been paid twice this week in fact. It will be much better when we move to the new system. I also got a note from one of the people I sponsored that he had gotten paid on five $320s. The current pay system will change obviously and more funds will go into the weekly payouts because none will go into the cycling and the three percent will be gone.

If you are reading our forums you will note that cycle time talk has diminished and that proactive threads like MARKETING 101 are bringing forward excellent input. And that we are not just Kim and company but all of us.

If I wanted to be opposed to YMMSS I would say hey isn't this a movement of some sort and isn't it sort of like the Mormons? Religious but with a commercial edge? Well in addition to being a writer I am a writer who has done some extensive work on religious movements among the books I have written. I think there is some movement there, but I think it is healthy and positive and believe me if I saw any of the characteristics in any leader that I am perfectly aware of in some of the movements I've written about, I would be out of there.

Happily I have no such fears. We have talents. We have resources. We have vision and we have plans that are unfolding on schedule. We are even in a position now to face down Murphy should he raise his ugly head. Cheers, S

What talents? What resources? What vision? What plans? What schedule. What position?

These claims are not supported by anything esto has said in this entire thread--much less the above post that he wanted to appear to be summarizing in the final paragraph. Within the post, the closest thing he said to anything relevant and credible was the vague comment that, "YMMSS is an amazing place in terms of the constellation of talents needed to take an idea and make it unfold over time."

If esto's meaning, here is that YMMSS still needs such a "constellation of talents," I agree! However, if esto means to imply that YMMSS already possesses such talents, that is utter nonsense. There are volumes of evidence to support my claim, but consider this one, simple bit:

The retail site has been promised as "coming soon" for over a year now. What preparations have been made to make it a reality? What "plan" has been followed? What hasn't been done? What "talents" have been used to lay the groundwork for this all-important site? Why would any retailers suddenly be subdued into expending thousands (much less millions) of dollars to advertise there?

Of course, one of the most compelling reasons for any new retailer to expend money on advertising via YMMSS would be YMMSS's showcase of the successful businesses that had benefited from the power of advertising through STA/YMMSS.

A brilliant opportunity for YMMSS to build such a showcase and show YMMSS's advertising power was the success of its own YMMSS Auction Services (http://www.ymauctions.com) website, launched in early may--with the "promise" of competing with eBay!

What has STA/YMMSS's "talent" done with this opportunity? Nothing but to show the organization's utter impotence as an advertising resource. After all this time, YMAuctions is currently listing only 72 auctions. Only two have bids on them, and only four people have listed 60 of those 72 auctions. The handful of sellers like those four are all that has kept YMAuctions from dying altogether as they list and relist items out of some sense of mindless duty, not possibly grossing enough to even pay the listing fees. Debarr is an exception, as he has sold most of his auctions, but his items range from things like $1 "Money Making How to Reports" to $75 computers. Lindalutt, on the other hand is more typical. She has so far listed 57 auctions and sold only ONE ITEM! And it's not like her merchandise is for some obscure market or that it's overpriced: It's all jewelry in the $10 to $80 price range. But I suppose that there aren't many YMMSSers with that kind of money these days.

And this is YM's own company, where STA/YMMSS has had the opportunity to advertise it and promote it to it's supposed 25,000 loyal members to the hilt. Still, it is such an incredibly, unimaginably dismal failure.

Why? Because STA/YMMSS has access to NO talent for promoting a legitimate business. The talent of its leadership lies strictly in scamming, not advertising and sales. YMAuctions is the proof.

Now ask yourself, how many classrooms of middle-school children do you know of that could not do a better job of launching and marketing an auction website? Talent, indeed.

Salsa
_______

[Salsa]

I thought you weren't coming back for a year. You should have quit before you got even farther behind. Please come back when you have more to contribute than more hot air.

When you do return to admit that you were wrong about YMMSS, as promised, I should also hope that you have the moral fortitude to distribute your take from the scam among the 20,000+ members who have lost money to YMMSS due to the lies and false promises that you have promoted.

In any case, when it is all over and Kim and his take are safe in Belize, in New York City you will not be so safe from the courts as he. Whether you are knowingly championing the scam out of personal greed or are merely a blind puppet of Kim's will matter little.

SalsaWow, there are some intelligent folk here who might have taken what I said as of some interest. Would you call your note gracious? Maybe you are too young to remember Robert Welch's classic rejoinder to Senator McCarthy. The two options you suggest in your last sentence are not indicative of my stance or place in YMMSS.It seems that you need to be reminded of yet another stance you have made here (http://matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=25984&postcount=263), at Matrix Watch, established on certain conditions that will surely come to pass:We'll meet again in a year...I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future.I realize that it's been six days since you said that--which, given your record, is plenty of time for you to forget a promise or to change your mind--so I have taken this opportunity to remind you.

As for questioning my graciousness, many people in my life do claim that I am quite gracious and even charming by nature. While I indulge those qualities here as I am able, allowing them to uniformly override my primary goal at Matrix Watch would be disingenuous. If you wish to know why I am here, scroll up to the Matrix Watch logo and look where it says, "THE FIGHT FOR JUSTICE." To spell out very clearly what that means to me in your case, esto: The police show up at your door, handcuff you and throw you in jail with Kim et al. Your assets are frozen. After the court verdict, the full amount of money that you helped YMMSS defraud from its victims is redistributed to them. You remain in jail. Now, see how gracious I was before?

Finally there is the issue of your statement that "there are some intelligent folk here who might have taken what [you] said as of some interest." You clearly came here under false pretenses, esto. While starting this thread on the premise that you would willingly answer questions or "ferret them out," you did neither to the satisfaction of any rational mind in even a single case. As evidenced by your posts, your sole purpose here has been to grandstand (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=grandstand) on behalf of YMMSS. Like your so-called "Success Notes," such superficial efforts to bamboozle people is effective only on the weakest minds, not the sort that you will typically find here at Matrix Watch.

I am however grateful that you came here to do your deeds, esto. Please do continue using our facilities for as long as you feel the urge. Aside from your presence being productive to our cause, it's rather entertaining to see you taking your turn using the first floor of a two story outhouse after having spent most of your time using the second floor at YMMSS.

Given the vastness of your releases, perhaps that's a clue to what is blinding all those YMers down below. They are now so covered by your mess that they can barely breathe, much less find the door.

As an editor, I'm sure you will appreciate words that can provoke such vivid images and odors.

Salsa
_______

[Dreamer]

Again I repeat, go release some battery chickens; sublimate your frustration into something useful.

Matrix Watch=Fluff and nonsense.


Is Alan back here posting?

[Gringo]

The most recent Q&A with Mike Hamilton, the new ad salesman confirms his position as a recruiter rather than an ad salesman. One of the first things he announced when starting was commissions to the affiliates for selling retail ads. In the latest interview, he mentioned affiliates selling ads at least 5 times. It's pretty clear that his intention isn't to land those big corporate accounts by personally contacting them as everyone was lead to believe would be his main purpose for hiring. He was supposed to have industry wide advertising contacts so that he would be bringing in clients immediately. Yet all he talks about is how easy it will be for affiliates to bring him the deals.

Looks like he'll know where to point the finger in blame when all that ad money isn't rolling in as planned. Just like the affiliates were blamed when CT escalated. Affiliates just aren't doing their part, pulling their weight! Get out there and sell those paid to read ads. It's easy!

[Arzel]

Even more interesting is why an afiliate would join under that framework.

If you are someone looking for a place to advertise your business and choose YMMSS, you purchase advertisement to sell your stuff. At the same time to make any money from YMMSS commissions you will have to go and sell advertising for YMMSS to people that don't want to be afiliates. It has to be about the dumbest business arrangement I have ever heard of. I mean really what is the purpose of an EPC in this situation?

It becomes very clear when viewed like this that the purchase of an EPC is only advertisement in name, and like we have said from the beginning serves really only one purpose, to gain a position in the matrix.

None of this should be very surprising though, anyone that was a former bigwig at a fortune 20 company, yet is unwilling to tell anyone what that company is...well I doubt he worked for a fortune 20 company, what does he have to hide? He clearly hasn't come up with any great ideas yet, and if he has he is keeping them a secret as well.

[AvidA]

I am absolutely convinced that Mike Hamilton never worked for a Fortune 20 company. According to his old testimony which is still on display in the testimonies page of YM, he was involved in all different kinds of Internet adventures. Now, who, if working for a Fortune 20 company would dabble in the garbage (most of it anyway) on the internet? And, who, if working for a Fortune 20 company would leave to work for a failing business just because it has a "vision".? I know shizophrenics who have visions all the time. lol lol lol

If that isn't enoug proof, he actually had the audacity to put the following on the new STA site where all KNOWING affiliates could read it. It's LIES :nono:

We currently have more than 20,000 active affiliates. Half of these are involved on a regular basis with our informative discussion forums at YMForums (http://ymforums.com). Ninety-nine percent (99%) of our affiliates have filled out the initial demographic survey at YMSurveys (http://ymsurveys.com).


Let me make clear that only 8,888 people are registered at YM forums and most do NOT go there at all and that's out of 25000 people plus change. AND nowhere near 99% has filled out the survey. Only approx. 1/3 has. So! They're "dong us a favor". They have a thread that says "Still haven't filled out the survey? You just got lucky!" As if they're doing US a favor! lol They need US! Not the other way around and yet they act like it's a favor! It's sickening! :shake:

[Arzel]

That survey is another thing. Why in the world would any outside advertiser trust the results? I personally would request an independent survey be done by an outside polling company before I advertised a single penny. The results of an internal survey would be worthless, who is to say that YMMSS would report all the survey results to any potential advertiser.....we already know how quickly they delete anything negative, and distort everything else they put out in the open. I doubt the survey results will be much different.

Heck they will probably just end up making up the results. As someone that deals with survey research on a regular basis, I suspect the survey will be completely worthless, and to make it a requirement for being a member is probably not a smart thing to do either.

[Dreamer]

Now YM are telling affiliates that it is their fault the Cycle Times went so high: it is due to their negativity.

Also, they are being told that all the bad press YM is receiving now is coming from the members (affiliates).

What do they expect. The members aren't allowed to complain over there. Maybe if they allowed them to complain over there, and got respectfuly answers, they wouldn't complain elsewhere.

[Rosilee]

I just found this site today. I have been a member of YMMSS for about a year. I have received money one time. I have met Kim Inman on two occasions and there is nothing in his demeanor or behavior that makes me think he is as dishonest as many of you think here. Though the business has had some problems lately I am completely confident that Kim Inman is on the level. I really feel sorry for those of you who are so negative. Just because some of you sit there and enumerate what a scam this is does not make it so.

You have speculated on a couple issues on which I would like to shed some
light. First of all the business is in Belize to more assure that the computers
can keep on operating and will not be subjected to intrusions and shut down as could happen in the United States. Secondly, YMMSS has a board of directors most of whom are bankers . In attending the meetings we are sometimes given information that is not always on the internet. Some of the knowledge gained at those meetings re-enforces my belief this YM will become a very viable business. Those of you who think it is going to come tumbling down I believe are just way off base. With Kim's banking connections I just don't believe that is ever going to happen.

As far as loosing money none of you can say in all honesty that anyone has ever lost a dime in YM. Money is still being paid out every week and it seems to me when $100,000,000 has been paid out in a year and a half to less than
25,000 people the owner couldn't be too dishonest. For me I am very grateful
to have been offered the opportunity to join YM and I think the time is coming when some of you who are so down on Kim Inman will think be grateful.

[Rosilee]

I just found this site today. I have been a member of YMMSS for about a year. I have received money one time. I have met Kim Inman on two occasions and there is nothing in his demeanor or behavior that makes me think he is as dishonest as many of you think here. Though the business has had some problems lately I am completely confident that Kim Inman is on the level. I really feel sorry for those of you who are so negative. Just because some of you sit there and enumerate what a scam this is does not make it so.

You have speculated on a couple issues on which I would like to shed some
light. First of all the business is in Belize to more assure that the computers
can keep on operating and will not be subjected to intrusions and shut down as could happen in the United States. Secondly, YMMSS has a board of directors most of whom are bankers . In attending the meetings we are sometimes given information that is not always on the internet. Some of the knowledge gained at those meetings re-enforces my belief this YM will become a very viable business. Those of you who think it is going to come tumbling down I believe are just way off base. With Kim's banking connections I just don't believe that is ever going to happen.

As far as loosing money none of you can say in all honesty that anyone has ever lost a dime in YM. Money is still being paid out every week and it seems to me when $100,000,000 has been paid out in a year and a half to less than
25,000 people the owner couldn't be too dishonest. For me I am very grateful
to have been offered the opportunity to join YM and I think the time is coming when some of you who are so down on Kim Inman will think be grateful.

[Arzel]

.....You have speculated on a couple issues on which I would like to shed some light. First of all the business is in Belize to more assure that the computers can keep on operating and will not be subjected to intrusions and shut down as could happen in the United States......

YMMSS should not be worried about having its computers shut down, and has recently been exposed, having them in Belize would provide little protection in the long run. The fact that this has been given as a reason for the servers being located in Belize should make everyone realize that YMMSS is a ponzi scam.

[Dreamer]

1. Have you ever met a conman that seemed dishonest and continued doing business with him?
2. What can you say about all the people who joined after 10/27 who have not cycled one time? How can u say with a straight face they havent lost a penny?
3. What do you say to the 98% of the people who have been repurchasing trying to build up enough spots to be able to retire off of? These folks probably havent taken out anywhere near the amount that they've put in.

As for the computers in Belize, I have heard many times that the Belize government works closely with the US and will turn over a fugative within seconds. So, I'm sure if the US gvt wanted to shut off their computers, they would ask for assistance from the Belize gvt, and probably have no problem doing it.

How do you know the Board are mostly bankers? and what difference does bankers make? And, just my thought...people can correct me like usual, most boards arent so specialized as in most are bankers. I think the best board might be somebody who is in the top 10 of bankers, top 10 in finance, advertising, PR, etc. That would make a well balanced board of directors who are the tops of their field so that better decisions can be made. What good are bankers anyways?

Your knowledge gained at meetings...umm...have you ever seen those get rich seminars? They are taught by people who are going to make it sound like the best thing out there. How to buy real estate, how to do whatever. Its not much of a seminar if the participants (who, BTW, go there already believing in the possibility) walk away not believing. Especially if they are already involved in the business. Could you imagine if one meeting was so unsuccessful that everybody decided to try to get out of ymmss afterwards?

i will be greatful when kin inman is in jail.

[Gringo]

I have met Kim Inman on two occasions and there is nothing in his demeanor or behavior that makes me think he is as dishonest as many of you think here. Though the business has had some problems lately I am completely confident that Kim Inman is on the level. I really feel sorry for those of you who are so negative. Just because some of you sit there and enumerate what a scam this is does not make it so.

And just because he has a presentable demeanor and behavior doesn't mean he is honest either. What makes YMMSS a scam is not Kim but the fact that it is structured like a ponzi-the majority of money paid out comes from other people putting money into the system, not to buy advertising but to participate in the money making scheme.First of all the business is in Belize to more assure that the computers can keep on operating and will not be subjected to intrusions and shut down as could happen in the United States. Are you saying the computers are more secure from like civil disruptions or terrorism in a third world country verses the U.S., or are you saying they are safer from government "intrusions"? If YMMSS was a legtitimate advertising company, why would they be worried about government intrusions?
it seems to me when $100,000,000 has been paid out in a year and a half to less than 25,000 people the owner couldn't be too dishonest. A more accurate description is that the vast majority of people have NOT been paid. This is how a ponzi works. Kim has made millions, a small percentage have taken out more than they've put in, and most have seen nothing returned and are very unlikely to ever see anything.

[AvidA]

[QUOTE=Rosilee]I just found this site today. I have been a member of YMMSS for about a year. I have received money one time. I have met Kim Inman on two occasions and there is nothing in his demeanor or behavior that makes me think he is as dishonest as many of you think here. Though the business has had some problems lately I am completely confident that Kim Inman is on the level. I really feel sorry for those of you who are so negative. Just because some of you sit there and enumerate what a scam this is does not make it so.

You have speculated on a couple issues on which I would like to shed some
light. First of all the business is in Belize to more assure that the computers
can keep on operating and will not be subjected to intrusions and shut down as could happen in the United States.

So, Rosliee, is your confidence as mentioned above supposed to make me feel more secure?? I have been in YM for longer than Esto and YOU and because I couldn't pay but $10.00 in EPC's I have not been paid..NOT ONCE! Now, I cannot comment on Kim's charcter the way you do so cavalierly, however I can say that YM has indeed, not paid people. I am one of them, ma'am and I am someone! So, you take your negativity back to the commie pinko forums of Ym and post your BS there. Because here..it's not negativity. It's realism. Time you came out of "CandyLand" and climbed up the "Chutes and Ladders" to the game of "Life". Come on over! There's plenty of room here in reality. You've proved nothing except how foolish you are. :mad:

[Dreamer]

I think i can speak for alot of open minded people here. I really hope ymmss proves us wrong. I hope it is the next big thing and alot of people make money, not only the members of ymmss but future advertisers.

However, it has yet to prove us wrong in any respects. It is based off a ponzi, and now is simply changing to income sharing.

Unfortunately, ymmss was built on lies, and sta is following in its own lies.

[ycchen]

Ponzi is about building a cult network, so everything the conman said is to his followers, not outsiders. The purpose of the STA is not to get outside advertisements because it will get none, unless Kim pays some companies to do a few fake advertisements using YMer's donated money!

The real purpose of STA is (i) divert member's attention on inevitable rising CT by changing to a new ponzi system; (ii) get the second round donation from existing members and newly recruited members.

Anyone who knows a little bit about ponzi knows that ponzi is a "club" that redistribute money from within -- using Mary's money to pay Paul, and the owner get a big % of transaction fee. All the lies that Kim are presenting to the outside world (advertisement world) is actually speaking to his members -- reassure them that "this time is for real! So, keep the money rolling in and you will be paid soooooooon."

I saw all the available video footages of Kim speaking to his members. Anyone who haven't joined the cult will spot how many lies Kim has tried to feed to his members. It is just incredible. Why do people buy it? I think most people in the video are either senior citizens or working class folks who might have little knowledge about investment and busines world in general. I suspect that they have hardtime understand what Kim is talking about. Therefore, since they do not quite understand what YM "real business" is (it has none so far because there is no proof of outside income), they choose to trust the conman because he "seems" honest and confident.

However, if these members have a chance to listen to the other side of the story, many of them will understand and will either pull out or sue the conman. Knowlege is very powerful if only people are given a chance to listen to the alternative.

To avoid people talking and listening to any alternatives, YM forum has to be sterilized.

Everything that Kim or YM promters said is to its members. It has NOTHING to do with the outside world. Why? Because as a ponzi, members' donation is the only income source for Kim and his gang.

Of couse, if I were Kim, I will definitely try to get a few small advertisements to prove to his members that STA has real value to the outside world. Whether these advertisements are real or fake (paid by Kim himself using your money) is a question that everyone should bare in mind. This is the only way that Kim can start a third round of donation from existing and recruited members.

[AvidA]

Ycchen,

What is your take on the fact that he hasn't already taken the money and run? If there's as much in there as they say...he's fifty years old he is set for life. Do you think that the 94 million is IOU paper like in "Dumb and Dumber"? lol Just curious as to why he doesn't leave. The only thing I can think of is that he found out that he can be extradicted and WILL be so he's made a new theme where the money trickles out to the people, keeping them holding out for the miracle 19 mil all the while devising a plan where he can really escape. What do you think?

[Gringo]

What is your take on the fact that he hasn't already taken the money and run?
That question is often used by pro-YMMSS people as proof that Kim is an honest guy. The reality is that running away with the money would be stupid. He'd be an internationally wanted man and eventually get caught. He doesn't need to do that. He has millions now. All he has to do is gently lower everones expectations from doubling their money every 90 days, to something else. He's done that. When the retail ad thing flops, he will give an excuse and come up with a new fix. People get disappointed but eventually become apathetic and Kim keeps his millions and stays out of jail.

[lionking]

Gringo wrote:

He doesn't need to do that. He has millions now.

Let's do a little assumption:

Say over 3 years span it was on average $1,000,000 per week in CPA/RFA.
Say out of 11% going to Admin Kim takes just 2%.

$1,000,000X2%=$20,000 per weekX52 weeks=1,040,000 per year!
And this is pure his take without great amount of doubling EPC he has...

I would not worry about Kim...Would you?

lol lol lol

[AvidA]

I wasn't really worried about Kim. I was more concerned about where he was going with MY money. lol lol lol lol

[lionking]

You better Belize it!!!

lol lol lol

[Gibson]

Having been a member of YMMSS for some time now, and, like so many others, waiting to get my original investment back, I have always wondered something.

Is it possible that Kim is paying his over-enthusiastic mods to police the forums as they do? After all, some of them, I don't think have made a lot of money yet.

[concerned]

Is it possible that Kim is paying his over-enthusiastic mods to police the forums as they do? After all, some of them, I don't think have made a lot of money yet.

That is entirely possible, but if I were to guess, I would say that the mods are the closest to the top to cycle, so they delete the negative out of desperation because they know they can't make a profit (steal money from others) if people stop handing over their money. If that is the case, they are just as unethical as the owner.

It would be quite interesting if he did pay his mods. What kind of message would that be? The members are making millions of dollars, but we pay some of them minimum wage to mod the forum. I think that should speak volumes for the type of outfit these clowns are running.

[Dreamer]

SigX was good at deleting posts when he was modding GM, but i"m sure if you ask him, he was never paid a penny from greg for doing so. I think they entirely believe the system so much, that they think that anything negative tarnishes what they are trying to do...save the world.

[AvidA]

You better Belize it!!!

lol lol lol


GREAT ONE LION KING! :applause: :applause: :applause: I laughed my *bleep* off when I read that! lol lol

And Dreamer, I agree with you. Just listening to the suck-ups talk on the conference call was enough to make my friend stop calling in. I think they're just sucking up to get a name for themselves...as if that's going to make them any money faster! lol lol lol lol

[lionking]

Yesterday payout was $59,342.

This brings about $0.88 payment for new $320!

WOW!!!

:D :D :D

You can't even go to Dollar store to buy socks...

lol lol lol

[Dreamer]

Lionking,

You might need to wait a couple days before you get your socks. How much of that $60,000 came from new members and how much came from repurchases, which will no longer come in?

I think esto said that 1/3 is actually paid out, so probably only $20k cam from new purchases. Under the new system that would be 2,000 more positions a day just for the $20k to come in.

[ycchen]

Ycchen,

What is your take on the fact that he hasn't already taken the money and run? If there's as much in there as they say...he's fifty years old he is set for life. Do you think that the 94 million is IOU paper like in "Dumb and Dumber"? lol Just curious as to why he doesn't leave. The only thing I can think of is that he found out that he can be extradicted and WILL be so he's made a new theme where the money trickles out to the people, keeping them holding out for the miracle 19 mil all the while devising a plan where he can really escape. What do you think?

Here is my take which might already been answered by many people.

1) If you are running an international scam as big as him (probably still smaller than PIPS), you cannot run cause the minute you start running, the man hunt (by your followers!) will begin. That's very scary. :D

2) As Gringo had said, when Kim hit the jackpot (no conman know if his ponzi would take off the ground when they first design it, it needs a lot of luck and promoters like esto), he just enjoy the RIDE for a while until the pyramid collapse by its own weight. He might or might not plan ahead which we will never know. If I were him, I will definitely try to "legalize" my ponzi and erase the existing ponzil trail when it collapse.

This is exactly what STA is all about. Erasing an obvious ponzi structure (doubling infinity) to a less obvious ponzi structure (profit sharing). They are counting on his followers (and thus authorities which is ALWAYS too slow to act) to forget about YM ponzi past (a doubler) and focus on this new revenue sharing STA (a milder ponzi).

As a "confident man", his first bet is to keep his promoters and hard-core followers on the same boat. If he can unload MOST (if not all) of them from the doubler ponzi boat and reload them on to the STA ponzi boat, then, he has a chance to get off the hook.

When authorities finally start looking into YMMSS a year later, it is just a FAILED adverstisement company. Trust me, STA will fail because the main intention of STA is not advertisement, it is about convincing Kim's followers to side with him. Only by keeping MOST of his followers in his STA ship, he is safe because there will be less complains to the authorities.

FYI, STA is still a classical ponzi -- use members money to pay members. Except that the profit is not concentrated on the first few people, but share amont all the rest. If STA has no baggage of the past, and owner take in 0%, then everyone should just take back what they put in. With a huge baggage of the YM doubler ponzi that carry over the STA, it results in a few cent of paid-out per week per member.

Anyways, back to the topic. Kim won't run because he is confident that he can manipulate his members.

Only members can stop him from his manipulation tactic!

Just think of this basic fact. Can you imagine a "soon to be eBay" company without any financial report and annual report? Also, do you know who is on the board of director of YM? :)

[AvidA]

Frankly, I can't imagine any company so secretive about so many things. There are more "wait and sees" then there are EPCs... lol lol lol

[lionking]

AvidA wrote:

There are more "wait and sees" then there are EPCs...

Totally disagree!!!

:D :D :D

There are ALL "wait" and NO "sees"!!!

lol lol lol

[janey]

Having been a member of YMMSS for some time now, and, like so many others, waiting to get my original investment back, I have always wondered something.

Is it possible that Kim is paying his over-enthusiastic mods to police the forums as they do? After all, some of them, I don't think have made a lot of money yet.


Mods are not paid anything, they are volunteers. Some have cycled previously and others joined later and have not cycled.

JaneBrown

[Loveit]

I am a mod, and I certainly don't get paid for doing that. I have been paid however for being an affiliate. I think before you make statements you should know what you are talking about. :shake:

[Leonidas]

which mod are you ? :eek:

[Arzel]

I am a mod, and I certainly don't get paid for doing that. I have been paid however for being an affiliate. I think before you make statements you should know what you are talking about. :shake:

Loveit, what statement are you referring? Gibson asked a legitimate question, and was answered by Janey.

Or are you referring to Janey saying that some Mods have not been paid? If you are going to shake your finger at someone, you should make sure they know it.

[Leonidas]

I find it very interesting now that all the YM staff and Mods are now down playing the 16-19 million that is supposed to start coming in weekly next June. After promoting this for months, they now say the cash is not in hand and don't count on it. :shake: Can you believe how many shocked people there will be to find out that Kim isn't going to bring in 1 Billion dollars every year off of an outside investment. :crazy:

L

[AvidA]

Mods are not paid anything, they are volunteers. Some have cycled previously and others joined later and have not cycled.

JaneBrown

How in the world do you know? Let me guess, you get all huddled up every Thursday after the conference call and discuss your earnings and who gets paid off and such! Let me just say:I doubt it!!!! So, you really don't know what you're talking about over there do you?

As for you, Loveit. I couldn't agree with Arzel more. What are you thinking coming here to shake the finger at anyone? You don't really KNOW all the facts either. They don't pay you. That is what you know (or say). End it there. :nono:

There you have it. Neither of you really know whether some mods are paid or what. What you DO know, which is evident to everyone who goes there, is how to censor people. Why don't you take your "negative" behaviour here back to the YM forums and see how long those communists let you stay. Oh wait! Nevermind! You ARE the communists! lol lol lol lol Well, welcome to MatrixWatch where you are welcomed to freedom of speech, somthing you don't give anyone in your forum. Instead of pointing the finger you ought to be truly grateful. You'd never get away with that at YM and you know it.

[Loveit]

Oh my Avida....I think you knickers are in a twist..*L* Pleeeeze...there is not a positive word on this forum....It is you who know nothing of what goes on in YM. All you can do is speculate and assume...All you know how to do is attack people who come in here and have a positive thing to say.....it must be depressing to be so negative...I will leave you all to it...Have a great day.. :)

[lionking]

Dear Loveit,

you are so sensative...

:D :D :D

I can bet, you are not so sensative to delete "negative posts"
in YM forum...

lol lol lol

[brenda]

Maybe nobody here has anything "positive" to say, but at least it is TRUE. TRUE, TRUE, TRUE, Not a pack of lies like over at the YM forum. What do you mean, nobody here knows what is going on over at YM? lol lol lol Everybody here knows what is going on over at YM. :shake: At least here peoples comments dont get deleted, and threads locked "without prejudice" (whatever the hell that means) and sent to archives. And then the mods get up on the podium and give us a LONG sermon why they just sent a thread to archives. It almost sounds like some kind of brainwashing techniques. That must be some type of cult mentality procedures. I don't know why they even bother sending them to Archives, why don't they just throw them in the trash. They have mods over there that follow people around from forum to forum and delete everything they post everywhere. Don't come over here and say we don't know what is going on over at YM. It's too bad that everybody at YM doesn't know about this website, but then how would the ones that know, tell everyone about it without getting charged with some kind of a crime?

[janey]

AvidA - you don't know me and I don't know you. However I have been a mod at the YMforums and I know that we are NOT paid for our volunteer work. But it does not surprise me to read your comments as it seems you and other MW members are only happy when you are speculating about matters that you do not have all the facts of. If YM mods are deleting posts - it is because they are not conforming to the TOU. If they are sent to archives, it is to try and clean the boards which receive 100's of posts daily.

I have been spending time in the MW forum to see if I have been wrong in my belief in YMMSS, but after reading through your many posts and threads - I have come to realise that I am in the right business and more than happy with my decision to stay.

I thank you all for the time you spend in talking about YM - you have certainly done me a great favor. When I want my questions answered, I know that I will take them to the right place, which is to the YMforums or conference calls - MW is not YMMSS and does not have the answers.

JaneyB

[AvidA]

JaneyB, That is because they tell you what you want to hear and not what the truth is. I know as well as anyone how bad it is to face the truth regarding YM. But here is some truth for you. You have been lied to or you'd be rich by now, is that not correct? You are hoping for a business to come about from YM--for how long? And be honest with yourself-- has anything, other than a few dollars maybe, EVER come to fruition for you? I know it hasn't. And I know why you and Loveit are really here. To find out why your beloved YM is not working like they claimed over and over and over. One day you will HAVE to face the truth. And it will set you free.

Loveit, (and I know you're reading this): your sense of false confidence is transparent. Let yourself go into the realm of honesty and you will be quiet...and watch. And when you see Esto getting the crap beat out of him with EVERY QUESTION-which he can only answer in "I don't know" or "I assume", then you will truly feel confident. Because the truth will set you free and when you're free you're free indeed. The lies that we've been told are too numerous to count and too numerous for any intelligent individual to really believe in YM any longer.

[Leonidas]

I have been spending time in the MW forum to see if I have been wrong in my belief in YMMSS, but after reading through your many posts and threads - I have come to realize that I am in the right business and more than happy with my decision to stay.

JaneyB

I am glad to see you here janey. Admitting you/YMMSS has a problem is the first step. Obviously you are starting to see through the lies or you wouldn't have needed to come to see if you were wrong in your belief in YMMSS.

You mention your are now more than happy to stay. What is the alternative? They have taken away the option to benefactor after you had members like esto swearing to buy your positions if you weren't satisfied. Now with the new system they are taking away the claim via website so you can't cash out. So with ever increasing CT I would say you have no other choice but to stay.

Might I ask why you aren't using the same SN as you do in YMMSS? Were you scared that Kim and other mods would kick you out and take your money? Don't you think it is a little odd that you were not comfortable speaking your mind over here because of the possible actions of YMMSS. Doesn't that tell you something?

Since you are a mod, maybe you could refer esto to my thread Looking for Esto (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3116&highlight=ymmss) and ask him personally to explain the answers to us all. I would assume you can not answer that question either since I have never seen answers in the YM forums.

Then come back and please give us your comments on his response.....if he ever responds.

Thank you

L

[janey]

Leonidas - nowhere in my post did I say that YM had any problems - I had heard about this forum and came to see what it was all about. But after reading the posts here, I am (as I stated) more than happy with my decision to join YMMSS.

Also, I said "I have been a mod" - currently due to health issues I do not have the time to help out the forum. What name I chose to use at ANY forum on the internet is my business.

I would also not presume to speak for any of the other members - if you are wanting Esto to answer your questions - you can contact him at the YMForums.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see" - as much as you will say this statement is reflective to the majority of YM members, I have to say that it is reflective of the membership at MW.


Thank you again for your time at this forum - as my questions have been answered, I will not be returning.

JaneyB

[surfer]

Thanks for your brief visit janey.

It is your right to ignore the lies Kim has told
and the mathematical facts that we present.
Just don't expect us to. ;)

Good luck and I hope your health improves.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see" - as much as you will say this statement is reflective to the majority of YM members, I have to say that it is reflective of the membership at MW.
Of course, a statement like that one should
have something to back it up. But you choose
not to.

That is pretty typical of most YMMSS supporters
who have meandered through MW.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to stick around
and point out exactly what it is we "do not wish
to see". :rolleyes:

Most of us here are much more aware of what
is going on at YMMSS than many of the members
are.

[AvidA]

I have been spending time in the MW forum to see if I have been wrong in my belief in YMMSS, but after reading through your many posts and threads - I have come to realise that I am in the right business and more than happy with my decision to stay.



JaneyB

So, what did you think you might be wrong about your beliefs regarding YMMSS if you are so satisified? You said that nowhere in your post did you mention the above, yet there it is in quotes. Looks like Cleopatra wasn't the only Queen of De Nile. lol

[Leonidas]

Leonidas - nowhere in my post did I say that YM had any problems - I had heard about this forum and came to see what it was all about. But after reading the posts here, I am (as I stated) more than happy with my decision to join YMMSS.

Also, I said "I have been a mod" - currently due to health issues I do not have the time to help out the forum. What name I chose to use at ANY forum on the internet is my business.

I would also not presume to speak for any of the other members - if you are wanting Esto to answer your questions - you can contact him at the YMForums.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see" - as much as you will say this statement is reflective to the majority of YM members, I have to say that it is reflective of the membership at MW.


Thank you again for your time at this forum - as my questions have been answered, I will not be returning.

JaneyB

I notice you failed to answer a single one of my questions. So you are right, I will say you are reflective of the majority of YM members by not being able to back up your statements with ANY facts or answer a single legit question. Now what about me though? You say I am reflective of the MW members. But I was and am a YM member as well. So I guess my comments can't be genarlized as just a MW member. By the way, you are a MW member now as well lol

L

[Takethat]

Edited

[yeppers]

esto,

A Ponzi's product is ephemeral and ultimately may not even exist in any tangible way. It is an excuse to get investment. I think this is superficially what one might argue regarding YM. Even though there can be no argument that YM has sold advertising and that members have used it and profited by using it, the very shape of things would enable someone to argue that a purchase of say $10K in EPCs was an investment pure and simple. And that the EPCs were ephemeral. My response to that is that if there is truth in that characterization, we are moving rapidly to make that inference false.*

thank you, esto, for admitting that our inference that ymmss is a ponzi-based scheme is, in fact, true, and that you are working hard to make it "false."

since suggestions are so unwelcome in your own forum, i'll take the opportunity to present one here, but allow me couple more 'inferences, first.

it is unfair, at best, and dishonest, at worst, for ymmss to use deceptive methods to lure investors (despite the atrocious 'advertising business' claims), and then, after ymmss had their money, to revoke the option to 'claim via website.'

it is unfair, at best, and perhaps dishonest, at worst, for you to 'explain' to your investors, on one hand, that it is 'their business,' but on the other, if they don't like the way kim is doing things, they have the option to leave their money (in many cases, many thousands of dollars) on the table and simply walk away?

can you not see that this is the epitome (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=epitome) a 'bait and switch (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Bait_and_switch)' tactic?

can you not understand that this is a perfect example of (since you're so fond of big words) legerdemain (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=legerdemain)??

i would really like to see a voluntary external forensic audit done on ymmss' er i mean sta's accounting records.

you say this business is transparent, and you are correct - just not in the way you seem to think it is. all one has to do is to get the wool out of their eyes. by admitting the above, you've ensured your own culpability. in light of this fact,

since you have some influence with him, please, please, for the sake of all, yourself included, convince kim inman, in regards to those of us who feel we were involuntarily transferred to the new 'sta,' consider granting refunds. then, and only then, can sta begin with a clean slate.

thank you for your time.

p.s. i'm sure a few of charles ponzi's victims were able to use their stamps, too.

*emphasis mine

[Casandra]

I am a Six Figure earner in YMMSS That was written July 2005. I wonder what kind of annual earnings you are seeing come in now? Care to enlighten us some more? Does your YMMSS/STA salary now make up for the drop off on commission earnings?

[AvidA]

"Ahem... why...uh...no, er I mean this isn't vegas, you know so we shouldn't be living in a fantasy world. I don't expect much at this stage of the game. .50 cents per ad credit seems feasably fair to me. Of course you can bite me. I don't really care about the little guy. I have all my other MLM ventures that are making money so pis s on you"
-Esto

[yeppers]

"Ahem... why...uh...no, er I mean this isn't vegas, you know so we shouldn't be living in a fantasy world. I don't expect much at this stage of the game. .50 cents per ad credit seems feasably fair to me. Of course you can bite me. I don't really care about the little guy. I have all my other MLM ventures that are making money so pis s on you"
-Esto
:eek: where and when - assume it's one of those hillbilly conference calls?

[AvidA]

No, that's just how he talks. Remember when he said in the forums not to think so big? He stated that we had a better chance at winning in vegas. Then he offended a lot of people by going on and stating that he didn't care about the little guy. The sick lady, Linda 222, confronted him about that and in his rude,typical fashion he said nothing. He's a big fat as s who's going to die soon. *yawn*

[drankoolaid]

Good Evening All,

It is all so interesting [albeit pathetically feeble.]

Esto defends -- waffles -- fends off attack --
Offers olive branch -- explains -- cajoles -- back peddles --
Self Incriminates --

And For What!?

I'm placing all 14 pages of the above Esto Q & A in the present.

It offers a 'retro' look back at the indefensible YMMSS / STA --
in the context of what exactly is the deal -- right now!

Read em and weep --

The amazing ESTO returns --

Best Regards,
Michael

[AvidA]

lol Well it's clear from flashing back to the past that Esto is a maniac. :rolleyes: He doesn't know if he's coming or going, can't answer any questions (never could) and then changes his tune about the whole thing. And to think there are people who respect this amoral politician.

[Salsa]

Tell you what...
We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly and if our retail ad site is bringing in an amount equal to or exceeding either of our two other major income streams, and if Kim turns out to not have been all of the things you have been saying or allowing to be said, including the false allegations, and if I am still here, as I may be old enough to have children the age of many or most here, then you will at least say, without prejudice, I had a point or two. If these things do not turn out to be as suggested, save my presence here, then I will concede that I was wrong in believing so firmly in the company's integrity and in its future. Cheers, SYour year is up, esto. YMMSS/STA is paying less than 1/1000 of what you claimed last year would be proof of your arguments. Even with all of the qualifications you included in the above quoted proposal, it cannot be said that you made any valid points in support of YMMSS/STA throughout your contributions to this thread. Of course, this was well known by any reasoning person who attempted to follow your arguments of a year ago. But if you needed a year to gather further empirical evidence, you've had it. Your promised concession is now clearly forthcoming.

I wish all well,
Salsa

[boatman189]

Your year is up, esto. YMMSS/STA is paying less than 1/1000 of what you claimed last year would be proof of your arguments. Even with all of the qualifications you included in the above quoted proposal, it cannot be said that you made any valid points in support of YMMSS/STA throughout your contributions to this thread. Of course, this was well known by any reasoning person who attempted to follow your arguments of a year ago. But if you needed a year to gather further empirical evidence, you've had it. Your promised concession is now clearly forthcoming.

I wish all well,
Salsa

Quite right! Your time has come. Esto now come forward and admit all that is wrong with STA and KIM as you promised you would. ADMIT that YOU were completely wrong with any points you had thought you made about this company, its integrity and it's founder. Ask for the forgiveness of all that YOU helped deceive, maybe it not to late to at least save your own soul..even with all the lives YOU helped ruin..... SAY IT ESTO, DO IT, say it now as YOU promised, otherwise let be known that you are a liar, a fool, and thief and may you burn in HELL for all the pain and suffering and loss you have caused to the many that may have initially listen to your dribble

DO IT ESTO..........

[Dreamer]

You guys shouldnt be so hard on esto. You have to realize something...

You see, esto cant help it...hes just a scumbag. Hes not that bright. He was hoping that we would forget about his "promise".

He is just a gutless wonder, probably trying to figure out right now how to scam more money out of people.

[mercinary]

Please folks, let's refrain from personal attacks, namecalling, insults, etc. We understand that you need to vent, but do so in a manner that follows our forum rules (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/announcement.php?f=22).

Thanks everyone.

-Merc

[callmestupid]

Janey,
You say "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see" Well. That means that ALL of the victims here at MW are NOT blind! We wish to see ALL OF OUR MONEY BACK that we gave to Kim Inman (and staff). It's interresting to me how Kim pays his employees HUGE INCOMES while we (THE VICTIMS) gave TONS of money. Wait a minute, we ARE employees! After all, we are "paid" to read ads every week. Even those who paid in over $200,000.00 dont' get paid min.wage! Where's the justice in that! How can you honestly be GLAD to stay in the program? What are YOU getting paid? ARE you HONESTLY SMILING as you read the ads just so that you can log in on Wed. to see that you only MAYBE got paid a quarter (IF you're lucky)? We have a holiday comming up. Does anyone get HOLIDAY PAY?
How could we have NOT seen?!? I'll tell you how!:) We WANTED to believe Kim Inmans promises on being able to "RETIRE" with a HUGE INCOME STREEM! :) We WANTED to believe we could have such an income that WE could go on the cruises,go to the resort,Eat great meals,Take all kinds of vacations with our family and friends! :) We WANTED to believe that EVERYONE in the YMMSS was our "FAMILY"! :) We WANTED to believe that Kim ande Sue Inman had OUR BEST INTERREST IN MIND AND IN THIER HEARTS!:) We WANTED to believe ALL of Kim Inmans statements that INCLUDED the words GUARENTEED!:) We WANTED to believe that Ymmss could NOT be brought down! :) We WANTED to believe this was NOT ANOTHER person making promises just to get our money and then back out! You get the idea!
So you SEE, The talk here an MW,is from REAL people who have lost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars or REAL money to Kim Inman and his UNREAL promises! Then, one day we suddenly could SEE! Why? Well,just as you said, we CHOOSE to see! :) Now we can see that we have been,and continue to be manipulated, lied to, and more-or-less, strung along! We have been strung along so that Kim could keep us on the hook and we would not try to get our money back.
I have something for everyone to think about! Do you realize the all Kim has to do is to put the money went gave him, into a savings account, and THEN, the account will draw interest. That interest that he would be getting on OUR money is MORE than what we are getting paid for the WHOLE YEAR!
We (the victims) would have done FAR BETTER if we would have taken our money and put it into a savings account and left it alone for the last two-three years! We would have ALL OF OUR EARNED INTERREST PLUS OUR INITIAL INVESTMENT!
Anyway, to GOD BE THE GLORY for what HE IS GOING TO DO in THIS situation!:bow:

[Dreamer]

Sorry merc for my observations on his character.

In retrospect, I now realize how great of a guy esto is. It takes a special class of person to be able to make money in Gods name at the expense of thousands of people who are good people. Its kinda like the christian belief, that if Jesus did something, they called it a "miracle" but if someone else does it nowadays.

So, if it was anybody other then Lord Kimmy and Lord stevie, then they would be considered lying scumbags and lowlife con artists. But, since both of those people are exzemplemtary characters in our society, I should have realized how wodnerful it is that they do what they do. They are able to teach plenty of people the value of a dollar, and how hard it is in this day and age to even earn a penny. And these world class motivational speakers will continue to to perform society a great service by constantly reminding peeople week in and week out how hard it is to morally and ethically earn a penny.

I think where I went astray in my original assement of this superior person was I forgot that sometimes the best lessons in life are the ones we figuire out ourselves. Would it really mean as much if esto did come here as he promised. Sure, we could say "told you so" but what would that accomplish. Its kinda like if ur thrown in jail with a guy named "bubba" what the words "I love mom" tattooed across his chest, and unmenchionalbe things are being done to you, would you really like to know why you were thrown in jail? or dont u think ull be a much better person cuz of the experience and being able to figure out ur wrong doings yourself?

I no longer pray to the father son and holy ghost anymore. I pray to kimky, stevie, and mikey

[callmestupid]

Does the one with the user name (SOMEBODY) still visit here? Does that person still post?

[mercinary]

Somebody (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/member.php?u=2852) posted last about 4 weeks ago. She last visited the site 2 weeks ago.

-Merc

[Casandra]

Originally Posted by esto on August 9th, 2005

Tell you what...
We'll meet again in a year. If YMMSS and STA are still there and are paying me let's say $10 per mature position or more weekly and if our retail ad site is bringing in an amount equal to or exceeding either of our two other major income streams

...what were the other two major income streams???? Seems fractions of a penny are easy to exceed a big nothing.

[callmestupid]

Where is Esto now? Is he ever going to see YMMSS/STA as what it really is? Will ANY of the YMMSSers listen to all of the people that have lost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars! How can they NOT see that something isn't quit right, when you have so many people (who were,themselves, at one time,cheerleaders and praises of YMMSS/STA) so upset about such great losses?! We are NOT making this up! It's real losses by real victims!

[Gringo]

I've received Esto's reply:

I continue to believe we will achieve a FULL transition from being a
money opportunity to an online advertising business capable of
reimbursing associates largely from advertising revenues on a weekly
basis. My weekly payments have ranged from small to substantial since
the change was instituted. My anticipation is that my current and
future income from weekly payments will, during the coming year, equal
or exceed average income received for the last (almost) three years.
I anticipate in the near term the achievement of our capacity to
advertise across the Web and therefore that we will generate far more
income than would be possible relying on our own site and related
sites. I also believe we have made excellent decisions to remove
ourselves from being characterized as a doubler or pay to read
program.

I don't think he will be responding here. You can try to contact him via his blog.

[callmestupid]

the comment Esto made about not being a "PAID TO READ" makes NO sence whatsoever! If that is the case, why are we being "paid"? (for what little we get)
We pay more for the electicity used in running the computer when we read ads, than Kim pays us for reading the ads. What a ripoff! On top of that, we had to PAY to get into this sittuation! What a deal!http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/images/smilies/bow.gif
:bow:

[Kim_Inmans_Butt]

Where is Esto now? Is he ever going to see YMMSS/STA as what it really is? Will ANY of the YMMSSers listen to all of the people that have lost HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars! How can they NOT see that something isn't quit right, when you have so many people (who were,themselves, at one time,cheerleaders and praises of YMMSS/STA) so upset about such great losses?! We are NOT making this up! It's real losses by real victims!

Esto will quietly slip away. He's not about to give up his ill-gotten gains that were transferred from the losers.

[ycchen]

Thanks Gringo for esto's reply.

I continue to believe we will achieve a FULL transition from being a
money opportunity to an online advertising business capable of
reimbursing associates largely from advertising revenues on a weekly
basis. The purpose of transition (from YMMSS ponzi to STA ponzi) is to cover-up the doubler-ponzi track, and it is NEVER about generate any income for YMMSSers ! :mad:

"reimbursing associates largely from advertising revenues" is a big joke. There is never (or close to nothing) any advertising revenue! No one can provide ANY concrete information on the real paying advertisers.
My weekly payments have ranged from small to substantial since
the change was instituted. This is a typical esto's kind of nonesense. What change? Less than a penny is consider substantial? lol
My anticipation is that my current and
future income from weekly payments will, during the coming year, equal
or exceed average income received for the last (almost) three years. Another typical esto's nonesense or simply lie to prove that esto belongs in jail.
I anticipate in the near term the achievement of our capacity to
advertise across the Web and therefore that we will generate far more
income than would be possible relying on our own site and related
sites. Another complete BS and no one knows what he is talking about.
I also believe we have made excellent decisions to remove
ourselves from being characterized as a doubler or pay to read
program. Sure, excellent decision that is good for you and Kim! We all know that by now.

[surfer]

Thanks for the post Gringo.

Typical esto-speak that addresses
nothing and admits nothing.

I hope nobody really expected
anything different. ;)

At best, Esto's average weekly
income as an IBA would be around
$200 since the old new system
launched on January 18, 2006 and
around $50 since the new new
system started payouts on July 19,
2006

And that would be if he is one of
the 1% club with around 120,000
RCs.

As illustrated in Success Through
Advertising(STA) Earnings/Loss
Potential (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4415), they would need to be
bringing in around $200K/week to
the RFA just for a new IBA to break
even in about 12 years.

:head: :head:

[concerned]

My anticipation is that my current and
future income from weekly payments will, during the coming year, equal
or exceed average income received for the last (almost) three years.


I think what Esto said here might actually make sense.

I can imagine that almost 90% of the members have an average income of $0 over the last 3 years. So, Esto would be right to say that FUTURE INCOME will reach that same average seen over the last 3 years. Good observation GENIOUS!!!

[ycchen]

esto
Gold user - Over 1000 posts
esto

Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Last Visit: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 5307
Topics: 88
Location: NYC, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I have always been a structure freak, back to my first book in the 60s, which made a splash but had few tangible results. Structure is the hardest thing to change. This started out as a single owner structure and remains so. This does not mean that IBAs and staff folk have not impacted things. Many changes have come via an interactive process, some of them defying what might be normal expectations coming from the structure we have. I suspect if we grow to a next stage with capacity to deliver ads as we hope and wish, we will be looking at a model closer to what you advocate. Think Warren Buffet! Cheers, S
Back to top
esto is offline View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website When you think you have enough of Esto's BS. Here is one more .. "Warren Buffet" :shake:

What really make us :mad: is that esto knows EXACTLY what happen to the "structure" that he co-design with Kimmy. Kimmy and Esto designed this ponzi structure to scam and fail. It is NEVER about advertisement, NEVER!

Yet, Esto is still talking smack. Isn't that amazing? :shake:

[Webwatch]

I don't think anyones going to fall for this rubbish anymore, even the mods over there must be tired of esto's ramblings.
Think Warren Buffet :crazy: more likely think Charles Ponzi :)

Is it payday again tomorrow to look forward to.

[ycchen]

Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Last Visit: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 5286
Topics: 86
Location: NYC, USA

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Mike is making a renewed effort to obtain a decision which was shelved almost a year ago which might go far to solve major problems related to integration and to delivery of services. I am hoping this will be approved asap and instituted asap. Best, S Another typical esto's BS again. "obtaining a decision" (what decision) that can resolve major problems (what problems?). :head: :shake:

Don't get fooled by all the esto-style BS. His role in YMMSS/STA is to continue to BS to distract attention from the low RFA. His previous role was to get people to continue donating to the failed ponzi so he could get paid.

esto can talk all night but nothing he says mean anything to Mike or YMMSSers.

As death of ponzi is becoming more apparent to YMMSSers, esto's role has change. His new role is to pretend that something serious is in the process but in reality, NOTHING is happening behind the scene. esto is just making up things as he blah his way through .... :shake:


a response from a member I do not know what you are talking about Esto. your information you wrote does not say what you are talking about, or maybe I am missing something.

Esto's reply PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I have probably said too much and I am NOT speaking for admin. What I said must stand until I know what has taken place. Best, S Do you know what he is talking about? :shake:

[Webwatch]

I bet he doesn't even know what he's talking about.

He either types in the dark and hopes for the best or has some auto script running with a collection of random phrases programmed in, I think its called 'BS Generator 1.0'

[ycchen]

lol lol .. nope, he is using a more advanced version 1.2 ...

No... wait.... I think he is using the (forever) beta version 599.99 .

Do you think esto will come here to prove us "wrong" again ...;)

Folks, we have many "good" conversation/debate with many ponzi/pyramid/matrix owners in the past. My best experience was with Damion who owned Ezexpo (the father of matrix-site). Since the flaw of all these matrix/pyramid/ponzi schemes are so obvious, the owners usually do not engage in serious debate, they following statements are their usual responses to MW critics.

1) our business is good

2) it is not illegal (no one get caught yet).

3) it is for those who believe in miracle (esto)

4) our scheme is different as we have "optimize" it

5) we are going to revolutionalize the internet business, ... next google, next eBay, 2 years ahead of Microsoft, better than yahoo..........etc..

6) we are selling valuable products in exchange for a free chance to make money. There valuable products include $50 ebook, or US$18 battery; US$40 signal booster; $100 ringtone, or $10-$320 EPC, WAC; $25 monthly subcription for useless advice; $5000 ticket for near nonesense conference ....etc)

7) We are not pyramid.

8) We are not ponzi.

9) We have real identities with real contact number and address.

10) We are honest Joe, come to meet us at our conference, or meet you at ____ church.

Apart for all the nonesense that these owners present, there is one common pattern.

They usually come at the beginning of the scheme, or when the scheme is still "working" (i.e. paying). Under pressure, the owner/promoters show up at MatrixWatch is to reassure their donors that they are legit and can take up challenge by the harsh critics.

One thing in common is that they seldom come back after the matrix/ponzi/pyramid die, because they have nothing to say.

However, when they are under investigation, or under serious threat of being procecuted (or from victims) , they might reappear again to play innocence, or try to refund the victims to avoid greater trouble (we strongly encourage owner to do the later -- do the right thing).

Based on our previous experience, we believe esto will not come back unless he is in HUGE trouble (under-investigation ...etc).

If you want esto to come here to admit that he is lying, you need to give him more pressure. At this moment, he is just relaxing and counting his 6 figures while typing rubbish to feed the YMMSS forum, and pretend that he is "really" working with Mike to make things right.

Esto is a conscious scammer and he will continue scam innocent people (especially Christian) until he is stopped.

And, he is a smart one. He will not get himself directly involved in the YMMSS scheme, so when Kim get caught, he will claim that he is just one of the "victim". But in reality, he is the chief promoter and co-designer (of STA at least) who get victims to donate to YMMSS (and later STA) from the very beginning.

See.. ... if there is two scammers in this world. I actually respect Kim more than Esto. Kim is at least more straight forward and will be the person who go straight to the jail if procecuted. (not easy, but possible).

Esto, on the other hand, has not backbone. He will (is already distant himself from the admin) continue to shift position from insider to outside, and back in (the "insider/outsider" game), so he can cut loose easily from the YMMSS scam if necessary.

Luckily, surfer and others have documented esto's lies on MW, so we will be more than happy to work with investigators to nail down esto any time.

Bottomline. Esto is still trying to distract attention away from low RFA (his new role), it means that the pressure on YMMSS / STA scammers is still fairly weak , unfortunately.

[Casandra]

what have been the official titles for Esto... I think he began as only a forum moderator, then didn't he move to some kind of communications facilitator? That would have him being the mouthpiece for Admin. After he did that, JimH kind of took his place as insider/mouthpiece and then what did Esto officially become?

Who began the forum? I don't think originally it was officially belonging to YMMSS, but was begun by members who didn't stay independent, but tied themselves closely to YMMSS.

[Gringo]

Everyones title can be found here (http://www.stasite.com/contacts.html)

Who began the forum? I don't think originally it was officially belonging to YMMSS, but was begun by members who didn't stay independent, but tied themselves closely to YMMSS.

My belief is that the forum is and always has been controlled and officially sanctioned by YMMSS>