Pajama Income Network (PIN) Ponzi Scam

[Truth]

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[AvidA]

They're not the only ones. There's a brand new one that is growing by leaps and bounds and it just started this last week. It's called AAN. Affilate Advertising Network. Check it out! :crazy: They're going to work because they've elimnated the problems associated with the other types like PIN and YM. :crazy: psst! Shhhh !! yea right............................... :rolleyes: www.theaan.com

[sisco50]

PIN has been around more like 14 or 15 months. Just another game for those who like to play fast and loose. :(

[Truth]

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[Arzel]

Thanks for the info Truth. I agree that these other sites should be discussed as well, I have been quite busy lately and unable to really research any of the other sites, but welcome other individuals to get the ball going. It will be a few weeks before I can really get into any in-depth research on any new sites.

[malvina]

I have been a member of Pin for some months and have done very well with the program. It has been the only program I have been able to trust will be there when I login.
I have about a dozen escalations and no matter when they finish I have got my money's worth.
I have found the ladies a very good Admin., they was recommended to me by a man who has known them for years.
However, I only joined Top Gun recently. Also set my son up to get an increasing income. I asked Jane and Jen if the program was ok before doing this and was quite shocked to hear of it's closure. All we got back was 30% of our spend less all our work. So I don't know why this should happen at all. I don't think they set out to scam but became too much for them.
With the surfing programs they make it very clear initially that the money we put in is 'donations' and we only joined because we had come to trust Jane and Jen.
We certainly wont get joining anymore surfing programs because I don't think we gain much from any of them.

[Truth]

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[brenda]

Top Gun surfers ripped me off for $76, which may not sound like much, but for me it is quite a bit.

[concerned]

I have been a member of Pin for some months and have done very well with the program. It has been the only program I have been able to trust will be there when I login.

How can you trust it when you say this about their other program.

However, I only joined Top Gun recently. Also set my son up to get an increasing income. I asked Jane and Jen if the program was ok before doing this and was quite shocked to hear of it's closure. All we got back was 30% of our spend less all our work. So I don't know why this should happen at all. I don't think they set out to scam but became too much for them.

If one program became too much for them, why would another be OK? Why can't you people see the signs. In a few months they will shut this one down also and say it was too much for them. Of coursem they were right. It was too much for them because they couldn't handle the scam collapsing.

[imao]

I hope members of MoneymakerGroup would read this thread, they are blind followers of Jen and Jane. If you would say something agains PIN they would delete your post in MoneyMakerGroup.

What a bunch of scammers.

[jokach]

We ran into that months back with MoneyMakerGroup when we were bringing down the matrix site scam, everytime we would post some real 'facts' about what it was all about, we would get banned and/or deleted. That site counts on people going there and hearing their 'testimonials' about how this program worked, and that program worked, and they made a fortune. Certainly, they may have made money, but at the expense of others. Thats just not an honest business in my mind.

I find it to be amazing the way that money changes people, it really brings out the underlying greed, which isn't a very nice side of anyone.

jokach

[ycchen]

MMG only allows opportunists like sisco50 to make criticism. Opportunists who have failed to steal (enough) other's money and end up as a donor have the right to trash the scheme. Of course, they also have the right to blame the victims as well.

Together with the webmaster -- Jason, if MMG opportunists are doing well and enjoy the ride of a particular new ponzi scheme, they will trash any critiques because they are afraid any negativity will hurt the money rolling into the scheme. Without creating an atmosphere of everything is good, the scheme won't get off the ground and they won't get paid.

For those habitual ponzi opportunists (gamblers), they make money here, and lose money there. So, they often do not trash the whole ponzi game too much. Even if they lose money in PIPS, they make it somewhere else. So, when a scheme crash, some of them will say : well, it has been a good ride, and I hope no one invest more than they can afford -- the same tone emphasized by ALL the ponzi owners ONLY after the scheme crash.

For more stories about how MMG promote ponzi scams, go here:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1709

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2148

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2303

[Radmax86]

I hope members of MoneymakerGroup would read this thread, they are blind followers of Jen and Jane. If you would say something agains PIN they would delete your post in MoneyMakerGroup.

What a bunch of scammers.

I have read it and I simply disagree. Everyone here thinks ponzi's are scam's and it is really not worth my time to argue otherwise when we all know I wont sway you, no matter what I say. Can ponzi's be scams? Absolutely. Are all ponzi's scams? In my opinion, no.

Personally I've made a lot of money from the PIN escalator, and an nice little sum at TGT. Before you jump on me, no I am not a referal whore as my downline consists of a select few people that know what they are getting themselves into. They take a calculated risk, like any other investment or bet. Obviously they have a much higher risk tolerance, but the idea is the same. PIN administrators have never lied to their members about how their programs work. They dont claim to be making 2-5% per day in forex like almost every single hyip out there does. They don't tell you you will escalate in ___ amount of days nor do they guarantee your money. To this day, they have paid out every dollar that escalates in a timely manner, and work hard to generate outside sources of income. Is PIN part-ponzi (member driven)? Sure, not even Jen or Jane will tell you otherwise, but there are outside sources of income that supllement the program. In my book PIN is not a scam.

Just my $0.02.

[Arzel]

I have read it and I simply disagree. Everyone here thinks ponzi's are scam's and it is really not worth my time to argue otherwise when we all know I wont sway you, no matter what I say. Can ponzi's be scams? Absolutely. Are all ponzi's scams? In my opinion, no.


Are you serious? You do realize that ponzi's are illegal, do you not? How can you defend against them? I don't expect you to try and defend them, there is no defense against them. No logic, no math, no sensibility, nothing. A ponzi is designed to take from one group and give to another group, and is far worse than gambling in my book.

But hey, good job, way to steal from people and feel perfectly good about it. :applause:

[ycchen]

I have read it and I simply disagree. Everyone here thinks ponzi's are scam's and it is really not worth my time to argue otherwise when we all know I wont sway you, no matter what I say. Can ponzi's be scams? Absolutely. Are all ponzi's scams? In my opinion, no.

Personally I've made a lot of money from the PIN escalator, and an nice little sum at TGT. Before you jump on me, no I am not a referal whore as my downline consists of a select few people that know what they are getting themselves into. They take a calculated risk, like any other investment or bet. Obviously they have a much higher risk tolerance, but the idea is the same. PIN administrators have never lied to their members about how their programs work. They dont claim to be making 2-5% per day in forex like almost every single hyip out there does. They don't tell you you will escalate in ___ amount of days nor do they guarantee your money. To this day, they have paid out every dollar that escalates in a timely manner, and work hard to generate outside sources of income. Is PIN part-ponzi (member driven)? Sure, not even Jen or Jane will tell you otherwise, but there are outside sources of income that supllement the program. In my book PIN is not a scam.

Just my $0.02.

Radmax86, I admire your honestly. At least you are honest than most opportunists (except NUK) who would legitimize their ponzi at all cost just to cycle themselves.

Unfortunately, ponzi is illegal.

Okay, here is my bottomline. If PIN or other ponzi is THAT HONEST, they should just make it clear in their front page -- This is a ponzi game, enter at your own risk. If the ponzi scheme is clearly stated and transparent, then I will agree that those who enter the ponzi make their rationalchoice.

Unfortunately, as I have said repeatedly, ponzi won't survive without misinformed newbies or 80 years old grandmom. It has to pretend to be a legitimate and legal investment scheme to fool those who has little knowledge about internet scam. These are the real victims who are the main donors to any ponzi including PIN. yeah, speculators like yourself win some and lose some, but why don't you keep the game to yourself.

Make the rule of the game clear (this is a ponzi) and invite only the speculators. Build up a pile of money pool, and everyone jumps in to grab as much as they could. Fine. As long as this is a private club money game and nobody will care (except authorities) if anyone die in the proces.

I have challenged Jason (AFSx, owner of MMG) to put this disclaimer on moneymakergroup.com front page, and of course, he won't. Why, because ponzi is eventually about stealing money from the misinformed victims! Yeah, opportunists win and lose, but vicitms is always lose and lose. They are always the one that donate at the bottom, or even after the scheme has collapsed.

Radmax86, thanks for sharing your testimonial. Just remember what Arzel had said: your profit is coming out of someone else pocket. PIN (or any ponzi) is a zero-sum game and not everyone is fully informed.

Sleep well, buddy.

[Radmax86]

Radmax86, I admire your honestly. At least you are honest than most opportunists (except NUK) who would legitimize their ponzi at all cost just to cycle themselves.

Unfortunately, ponzi is illegal.

Okay, here is my bottomline. If PIN or other ponzi is THAT HONEST, they should just make it clear in their front page -- This is a ponzi game, enter at your own risk. If the ponzi scheme is clearly stated and transparent, then I will agree that those who enter the ponzi make their rationalchoice.

Unfortunately, as I have said repeatedly, ponzi won't survive without misinformed newbies or 80 years old grandmom. It has to pretend to be a legitimate and legal investment scheme to fool those who has little knowledge about internet scam. These are the real victims who are the main donors to any ponzi including PIN. yeah, speculators like yourself win some and lose some, but why don't you keep the game to yourself.

Make the rule of the game clear (this is a ponzi) and invite only the speculators. Build up a pile of money pool, and everyone jumps in to grab as much as they could. Fine. As long as this is a private club money game and nobody will care (except authorities) if anyone die in the proces.

I have challenged Jason (AFSx, owner of MMG) to put this disclaimer on moneymakergroup.com front page, and of course, he won't. Why, because ponzi is eventually about stealing money from the misinformed victims! Yeah, opportunists win and lose, but vicitms is always lose and lose. They are always the one that donate at the bottom, or even after the scheme has collapsed.

Radmax86, thanks for sharing your testimonial. Just remember what Arzel had said: your profit is coming out of someone else pocket. PIN (or any ponzi) is a zero-sum game and not everyone is fully informed.

Sleep well, buddy.

Though I appreciate your concerns over the quality of my sleep, I will be just fine. Two words: Tempurpedic mattress ;) . I have a clean conscience. Trying to guilt trip me for passively taking someone elses money will not work, as they have access to every single resource that I do. If someone places a bet on a big underdog without knowing a thing about the teams playing, were they scammed by the bookie that says "they could make 500%" on that bet? In my opinion, no, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see eye-to-eye on that.

I agree with you, there are plenty of people who don't understand what they are getting into before they spend money, I just dont sympathize with them. I have no issue with you people "exposing the facts" as long as they are truly facts. Half the information i've seen posted in this thread is incorrect. People here are claiming Jen and Jane literally stole money from the TGT pool. What evidence points to that? It is human nature to get mad about losing personal wealth, but why spew misinformation?

I have been friends with Jason for about a year now, and I can tell you his intent is to make people money, not bait members into joining. Judging by the few posts i've looked at, you seem to have a personal vendetta against him. This whole conflict between matrixwatch and moneymakergroup simply will never be settled. Both boards have their fair share of misinformation and zealots. Two polarized groups are looking at the same things from different angles and have come to different conclusions. All I can suggest is to stick to the facts and let people draw their own conclusions.

Signing out,
Jacob

[weirdid]

Hi radmax86,

I will stick with the facts, well just one fact.

Your a member of an illegal ponzi scheme.

[Truth]

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[sisco50]

Radmax86, I admire your honestly. At least you are honest than most opportunists (except NUK) who would legitimize their ponzi at all cost just to cycle themselves.

Unfortunately, ponzi is illegal.

Okay, here is my bottomline. If PIN or other ponzi is THAT HONEST, they should just make it clear in their front page -- This is a ponzi game, enter at your own risk. If the ponzi scheme is clearly stated and transparent, then I will agree that those who enter the ponzi make their rationalchoice.

Unfortunately, as I have said repeatedly, ponzi won't survive without misinformed newbies or 80 years old grandmom. It has to pretend to be a legitimate and legal investment scheme to fool those who has little knowledge about internet scam. These are the real victims who are the main donors to any ponzi including PIN. yeah, speculators like yourself win some and lose some, but why don't you keep the game to yourself.

Make the rule of the game clear (this is a ponzi) and invite only the speculators. Build up a pile of money pool, and everyone jumps in to grab as much as they could. Fine. As long as this is a private club money game and nobody will care (except authorities) if anyone die in the proces.

I have challenged Jason (AFSx, owner of MMG) to put this disclaimer on moneymakergroup.com front page, and of course, he won't. Why, because ponzi is eventually about stealing money from the misinformed victims! Yeah, opportunists win and lose, but vicitms is always lose and lose. They are always the one that donate at the bottom, or even after the scheme has collapsed.

Radmax86, thanks for sharing your testimonial. Just remember what Arzel had said: your profit is coming out of someone else pocket. PIN (or any ponzi) is a zero-sum game and not everyone is fully informed.

Sleep well, buddy.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. In the real world opportunists do exist and thrive. Misinformed victims do exist and sometimes suffer from having made poor choices. This can be a good thing if that person learns from the experience and stays away from those types of schemes in the future. But that is not always the case. Many keep trying and keep spending. Disclaimers are meaningless to these people. They will still spend more than they can afford to lose. You can not stop them; I can not stop them. Beating a dead horse will not stop them. So what is the solution? If there is one, I haven't found it. :(

[ycchen]

Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. In the real world opportunists do exist and thrive. Misinformed victims do exist and sometimes suffer from having made poor choices. This can be a good thing if that person learns from the experience and stays away from those types of schemes in the future. But that is not always the case. Many keep trying and keep spending. Disclaimers are meaningless to these people. They will still spend more than they can afford to lose. You can not stop them; I can not stop them. Beating a dead horse will not stop them. So what is the solution? If there is one, I haven't found it. :(

There is a solution, shut down illegal ponzi by all means. The only problem is that our authorities are always too slow to act on too many internet scams these days. :shake: There is another solution, don't participate or promote ponzi scams even if you might benefit from them.

I guess "do the right thing" must be a joke to you. :cool:

Did you sell your picpay to another "willing victims"? Why not? Since you have been defending PIPS until now (right?), picpay must be legitimate as long as there are rational buyers who are willing to pay for a price that they can afford to lose .. lol lol

Can you tell me what you will not sell if there is a willing buyer? :)

Anyways, let's get back to the topic on PIN. Could anyone tell us more about the "outside incomes" of PIN? Any concrete names of the partner companies or financial reports or any hardcopy documents ...etc.

Wait, don't tell me they don't have any :eek: :rolleyes:

[sisco50]

There is a solution, shut down illegal ponzi by all means. The only problem is that our authorities are always too slow to act on too many internet scams these days. :shake: There is another solution, don't participate or promote ponzi scams even if you might benefit from them.

I guess "do the right thing" must be a joke to you. :cool:

Did you sell your picpay to another "willing victims"? Why not? Since you have been defending PIPS until now (right?), picpay must be legitimate as long as there are rational buyers who are willing to pay for a price that they can afford to lose .. lol lol

Can you tell me what you will not sell if there is a willing buyer? :)

Anyways, let's get back to the topic on PIN. Could anyone tell us more about the "outside incomes" of PIN? Any concrete names of the partner companies or financial reports or any hardcopy documents ...etc.

Wait, don't tell me they don't have any :eek: :rolleyes:

Yes, in a perfect world that would not only be the solution but would also be doable. However, most of us live in the real world. :(

Your comments above regarding me are unwarrented and unworthy of even you! Try and get the facts straight before you go accusing as this makes for more credibility. You know not whereof you speak on this topic and what little respect I may have had for you in the past has now vanished. I might add that your credibility has diminished to nil. How can anyone believe anything you say? You are the master of misinformation. :(

Yes, back to the topic of PINS. By all means!

[ycchen]

Yes, in a perfect world that would not only be the solution but would also be doable. However, most of us live in the real world. :( I agree with you. In a real world, we have people like you knowingly support and promote ponzi scam, and we haven't found a solution that can take people like you to justice. That's the challenge. :)

Your comments above regarding me are unwarrented and unworthy of even you! Try and get the facts straight before you go accusing as this makes for more credibility. You know not whereof you speak on this topic and what little respect I may have had for you in the past has now vanished. I might add that your credibility has diminished to nil. How can anyone believe anything you say? You are the master of misinformation. :( So, you are the master of truth? lol Please continue to support Bryan and PIPS, may be you will get a refund for your loyalty. ;)
Yes, back to the topic of PINS. By all means! I agree. :)

[Radmax86]

Simply amazing.

This guy "radmax" (LOL) or Jacab as he calls
himself comes in here telling us all how he so
tactfully bets on these illegal ponzi scams AND he
admits he doesn't care one bit about all the innocent
people that had no idea what they were investing in.

:shake:

Let's get to the facts:

Jen and Jane lied and misled thousands of people in their
failed Top Gun Traffic program which they shut down.
Thousands of people lost thousands of dollars.
:nono:

The only reason they issued refunds was to save face for
the few amount of people left who still support them.
I can guarantee you the only people still supporting them either
made a profit with them in PIN or are
Decrease Sizeimply very, very gullible.
:head:



1) Innocent to you, ignorant or even stupid to me. What kind of logical person fails to research something they are putting thousands of dollars into?

2) The entire article you posted is full of false, and misleading information or pure speculation. You simply take the word of the author without checking the facts. The author's main argument is that money was taken out of the TGT pool, a very large percentage it seems, and either fed to PIN or Jen and Janes bank accounts. How on earth would the author know this? Has he audited the TGT gold accounts? Has he looked at each and every account to see how much people actually made or lost? I know for a fact that many people made thousands of dollars each in tgt. Everyone is suggesting that there is missing money, but I have seen nothing that points to this. As far as I can tell, TGT was a ponzi that redistributed members money to other members. You probably think that is a scam because of this, and again we simply aren't going to come to an agreement about that, but try to post some factual articles in the future.

[sisco50]

"I agree with you. In a real world, we have people like you knowingly support and promote ponzi scam, and we haven't found a solution that can take people like you to justice. That's the challenge."

ycchen

You are treading on thin ice here my friend! I will say this just one more time for those too dense to understand it the frist dozen times or so. I do not knowingly support and promote ponzi scams. This my friend is just more of your spreading misinformation. :) If you are looking for a solution to bring me to justice you will be looking for a very long time. In my first sixty years on this earth, I have done nothing illegal to cause me to be taken to "justice". Not likely to change that any time in the future. :) I am too old to change now. I think I will continue living my life as I always have. :)

"So, you are the master of truth? Please continue to support Bryan and PIPS, may be you will get a refund for your loyalty."

I do not support Bryan and PIPS. I am not looking for a refund. I am however bringing to your attention that once again you are spreading misinformation. Because what you have just said here is not the truth and is based solely on your own speculation, you are spreading misinformation once again. :) You haven't a clue, have you? :(

[Truth]

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[Radmax86]

I'm not Twisting any facts nor am I spreading lies and misinformation, and no I am not kidding. I do know many people who made thousands of dollars each. That is a fact and I am not trying to twist anything. Do I know what percentage of people made money or was close to breaking even? No, and I never claimed to though obviously it was a minority.

Ponzi's are about redistributing money. Those who got in prior to May 12th had a chance to turn a profit. Do you have any idea how many heavy hitters were in this program since day one? Every $10k account needs 6k/month to feed it. That is a lot of smaller investors/gamblers/speculators/"innocent people" or whatever you would like to call them. Yes, this board is against that concept in its entirety, but claiming that Jen or Jane stole money with no factual evidence whatsoever shows incredibly poor taste, or at least a blatent lack of research.

It is no secret that TGT and 95%+ of the autosurf industry are ponzi's. The only people I have a bit of sympathy for are the ones who were lied to by unscrupulous promoters trying to make a quick buck, but either way a bunch of the blame still is with the "victims", as they were not forced to spend their money and a quick search will tell you all you need to know about the autosurf industy and how they work.

I have no problem with the goals of the matrixwatch board, just a problem with those people spreading lies and rumors with no evidence to support their claims. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for a few posters here, as they dont seem to get caught up in the lies, are not zealots and can carry out a discussion without resorting to insults or false accusations. I think it is honerable to teach people how these programs work. If you wish to eliminate ponzi's, including heavy bias, attacking people character and posting lies is not the way to do it. People should be able to come to their own conclusions, not be force fed what you view is right.

[Arzel]

redmax86,

You don't know how Ponzi's work, so don't try to explain away PIN as not being a Ponzi. Your own example you provide above is the very deffinition of a Ponzi.


Those who got in prior to May 12th had a chance to turn a profit. Do you have any idea how many heavy hitters were in this program since day one? Every $10k account needs 6k/month to feed it. That is a lot of smaller investors/gamblers/speculators/"innocent people" or whatever you would like to call them. Yes, this board is against that concept in its entirety, but claiming that Jen or Jane stole money with no factual evidence whatsoever shows incredibly poor taste, or at least a blatent lack of research.
Just what the heck do you call that?

Your apparent lack of understanding regarding these scams and continual blaming of victims for there problems only convinces me more that you are just as responsible as those that would set up a Ponzi scam.


People should be able to come to their own conclusions, not be force fed what you view is right.

We provide mathmatical facts, from which people must determine if they wish to take the gamble and play the Ponzi scheme.

[Truth]

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