Where are the Pro's?

[dwin75]

Hello,
Since there are some "Pro-Matrix" here I would expect to find some arguments in favor of matrix sites. Yet all I find here is supporters bickering back-and-forth about hi-jacking threads, getting banned, getting re-instated, and making a general stink about the whole thing.

So where is all the "Pro-Matrix" talk? Not that I am pro-matrix myself, but I have yet to see an argument that really makes me think, or that cannot be struck down by a better anti-matrix argument.

Just to put it out there, as this is what the forum is supposed to be used for.

Cheers.

[tcb1969a]

Because most of us who are for Matrix sites object to being put in this little corner.....that is why? We voice are opinions at those who are against us thru the other threads on this site.....

[MatrixWatch]

I think what he means is that he came here and clicked on the "pro matrix" forum link and it did not give him any pro-matrix argument threads. If he clicked on the "legal issues" folder, he would find legal debate... If he clicked on the "site closures" folder, he would find discussion about closed matrix sites. So, what he is saying is that when he comes to this folder, he finds no pro-matrix arguments.

It is not about placing people in a corner, it is about keeping the forums organized for those who access them. He's razzing you because by arguing about petty things from the past you are inadvertantly making your side look un-intellectual.

[dwin75]

yes, that is exactly what I meant :)

[tcb1969a]

Yes, and I still say it is still a corner. And most Matrix supporters agree that it is. We voice are thoughts thru the other threads that put out misinformation. That is where we feel it is better for us to voice our opinion. Cut and dry. This little corner serves no purpose at all.....

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by watchdog
He's razzing you because by arguing about petty things from the past you are inadvertantly making your side look un-intellectual.

I am not sure but this almost sounds like a inadvertant poke at the matrix supporters, and this come from Watchdog. I guess we can play that game again if you wish, and there are plenty of forums to play it on!

[hello]

A matrix supporter is really someone who wants other people to join them so they can cycle and get their gift. I mean, how do you support a system that is doomed to fail?

[matrixfriendly]

The system will not fail. It will keep going forever if untampered with. You in fact should never run out of persons to join as long as the site is open. Yes it mathmatically it will take longer and longer the further you get down the list, but nevertheless it will keep going unless there is outside interference. There will never come the day where you wake up and say oops the matrix failed. This will never happen as long as the site is up and running.

[hello]

Never say Never. Everything ends.

[matrixfriendly]

Not as long as the site is up and running and there is no outside interference I said.

[Arzel]

It can not last indefinately.

Let us say that you have a list of x people with a buy of $y and a pay of $z.

There would come a time when an infinite number of slots had been purchased (no outside interference), this would require an infinite amount of money, or more basically resources.

Since we live in an finite universe, the amount of resources available to us is limited, thus there would come a time when no more resources were available to continue the matrix.

Not only would the matrix fail at this point but x-1 infinity numbers of slots would remain on the list. Since that is not possible the matrix could never approch y/z infinity of the amount of available resources. But enough of large number theory.

A matrix is an open process using a finite amount of resources, thus it can not last in perpetuity.

[tcb1969a]

There is only one flaw in your logic which makes everything else you said a mute point, Arzel.....

Since we live in an finite universe....


The universe in fact is infinite, it keeps growing and growing and growing. This isn't speculation.....It is a fact.....

[uwantme]

Well I kinda missed out on this whole debate but I would explain why I dont really use the "pro-matrix" forum.

1. the "pro matrix forum was not created until certain members where banned. Then those banned members were told they could only post in the "pro-matrix" forums. However the site is now at the time Yes I did resent being told I could only post where watchdog said I could- so i didnt really use it much.

2. All I hear from watchdog and other matrixwatch supports is how this place sounds like a broken record, and everyone only brings up old news etc... Well just tell me what are we going to post in the pro-matrix forums that hasnt been debated, aurgued, pointed out, etc.. on the other forums already...

3. Some of us are not fully pro-matrix.. I am not against matrix sites. I think for the most part they are pretty straight forward and have TOS. If you really cannot read or understand what you are getting into and you dont ask questions before you join. I feel you have no one to blame but yuorself.. However I do disagree with alot of the matrix concepts. I do think matrixes should sell tangible items instead of e-books and I see a few sites have already started doing this. I also think sites should come up with better autocycling plans and way a to remove the endless lists.. Since I guess I am a little pro and a little against matrixes most of my posts do not belong in the "pro matrix" catagory..

Solution- maybe watchdog can or assign someone to go through the old posts and move the ones that are mainly focused on defending the matrix system into the pro-matrix section. Members can even help by reporting old posts that belong in the pro matrix section. All you have to do is put in the report notes box "belongs in pro matrix". This sounds like a great idea and would be easy to accomplish especially with the help of the other members and the posts that belonged in the pro-matrix section would be in there without having to start up the same debates etc...

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
There is only one flaw in your logic which makes everything else you said a mute point, Arzel.....

Since we live in an finite universe....


The universe in fact is infinite, it keeps growing and growing and growing. This isn't speculation.....It is a fact.....

I hope that you are kidding. When he brings up the finite universe point he was talking about HUMANS who can invest in the matrix. This was the point expressed in the January MSNBC article (read it). The only way you would be able to resolve what you just brought up is if you can prove that martians and an infinite myriad of other intelligent creatures could continually invest in the matrix. EzExpo has proven that this cannot happen, and the other pyramid and ponzi schemes in history have proven the same thing.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
There is only one flaw in your logic which makes everything else you said a mute point, Arzel.....

And, tcb, there is no such thing as a MUTE point. It is called a MOOT point.

[tcb1969a]

Yes.....I was kidding Watch Dog, and usually I reread my post for spelling errors, but I missed the moot....oops.....

[uwantme]

Originally posted by uwantme

Solution- maybe watchdog can or assign someone to go through the old posts and move the ones that are mainly focused on defending the matrix system into the pro-matrix section. Members can even help by reporting old posts that belong in the pro matrix section. All you have to do is put in the report notes box "belongs in pro matrix". This sounds like a great idea and would be easy to accomplish especially with the help of the other members and the posts that belonged in the pro-matrix section would be in there without having to start up the same debates etc...

I know your on here watchdog you posted several replies after this one in debate with TCB, but what do you think about this?

[MatrixWatch]

It is a pretty good idea. If I can foresee any problems with this it would be that most of the pro-matrix arguments are inside other threads. Also, several of those arguments took place before the massive Ginix/PayPal freezes, and they are a bit outdated.

I would encourage the pro-matrix supporters to look through the old arguments and think deeply about them. From there, it would be helpful if you or one of the others started a couple of threads that brings up an old debate, but with some more perspective and depth added to them. This would foster good discussion.

I have heard some pro-matrix members say that posting in the appropriate folder does not expose the issue to the larger "General folder" audience, but I disagree. Whenever a thread is started or added to it updates in the "Active..." box on the Main page. Many of the members here use that box solely to check for updates. The active box enables every category of the forums to be exposed to a visitor or member who has just logged on, not just the General folder.

[tcb1969a]

and the folder was created when we were banned, so we could have a little corner.....like we are children in kindergarten.....

Go to your corner.......

[Agent|Star]

Originally posted by dwin75
Hello,
Since this is a "Pro-Matrix Forum," I would expect to find some arguments in favor of matrix sites. Yet all I find here is people bickering back-and-forth about hi-jacking threads, getting banned, getting re-instated, and making a general stink about the whole thing.

So where is all the "Pro-Matrix" talk? Not that I am pro-matrix myself, but I have yet to see an argument that really makes me think, or that cannot be struck down by a better anti-matrix argument.

Just to put it out there, as this is what the forum is supposed to be used for.

Cheers.


Well like i said when he first created this area... What is its purpose??? You want us to share our side? Well we do that right along your posts heheh We dont need this area!!

Let me paste here what my previous remarks regaurding "PRO-MATRIX" as I dont want to repeat myself:

------------------------------------------------------

Its just makes no sense to me. Think about it.
What kind of threads would we create in there? lol

The subject under Pro-Matrix Sites Area says "Where matrix owners can tell their side of the story" lol... If we are going to share our side it should be a debate that takes place where comments are made....

Comments are made where?
Everywhere else on the board NOT IN PRO-MATRIX AREA!!.
Do you get what I am saying?

Are you giving us that area to run advertisments or what lol. If you really want us to be able to share ourside.. We need to be able to voice our opinions where everyone else does, not in our little corner it will be like talking to the wall.

------------------------------------------------------

I consider this area a joke..
A peace offering for what has recently happened...
A way to cusion the acts of a dog a few days ago.
That is the real reason this place was made. :cool:

[tcb1969a]

Couldn't have said it better BigStarr.....

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by Arzel
It can not last indefinately.

Let us say that you have a list of x people with a buy of $y and a pay of $z.

There would come a time when an infinite number of slots had been purchased (no outside interference), this would require an infinite amount of money, or more basically resources.

Since we live in an finite universe, the amount of resources available to us is limited, thus there would come a time when no more resources were available to continue the matrix.

Not only would the matrix fail at this point but x-1 infinity numbers of slots would remain on the list. Since that is not possible the matrix could never approch y/z infinity of the amount of available resources. But enough of large number theory.

A matrix is an open process using a finite amount of resources, thus it can not last in perpetuity.

A matrix site will last indefinetly. PERIOD. It will last until the site shuts down or some kind of outside interference occurs. We do live in a infinite world(humans included) WatchDog. There are humans being born everyday. Are you speculating that the day will come when no more people are born on this earth? Besides the fact that the same people buy in over and over again once they are in the system. The matrix will outlast all of us. So all of this will be a MUTE point!!(MOOT). That was a stab at TCB by you watchdog and was uncalled for. I see that you do not like to stay within the standards in which you set for us matrix supporters. Just because you blanket pokes with sugar coating does not make it any less of a poke at us.

[dwin75]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
There is only one flaw in your logic which makes everything else you said a mute point, Arzel.....

Since we live in an finite universe....


The universe in fact is infinite, it keeps growing and growing and growing. This isn't speculation.....It is a fact.....

That is a bold claim, and one that seems a little mis-informed. In FACT, even the greatest scientists in the world have been able to find very few FACTS about the universe. Most knowledge about the universe is theoretical, not factual.

Furthermore, if you have read any publications by scientists that theorize about the universe, you will find that actually most believe it is not infinite, but rather finite and expanding as it has been observed that over time stars and galaxies are moving apart.

That brings up another point. If something is infinite, then how can it be growing? as it is already infinite. Anyway don't take my word for it, read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.

And as far as how this relates to the matrix world, I think it is totally irrelivant.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by dwin75
That is a bold claim, and one that seems a little mis-informed. In FACT, even the greatest scientists in the world have been able to find very few FACTS about the universe. Most knowledge about the universe is theoretical, not factual.

Furthermore, if you have read any publications by scientists that theorize about the universe, you will find that actually most believe it is not infinite, but rather finite and expanding as it has been observed that over time stars and galaxies are moving apart.

That brings up another point. If something is infinite, then how can it be growing? as it is already infinite. Anyway don't take my word for it, read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.

And as far as how this relates to the matrix world, I think it is totally irrelivant.

It's because I know....that the universe is infinite......any logical minded person would know it goes on and on and on. Hence the word infinite. So based on your idea that it is finite, we would just hit a brick wall or something if we went to the edge of the universe? Nope.....

[dwin75]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
It's because I know....that the universe is infinite......any logical minded person would know it goes on and on and on. Hence the word infinite. So based on your idea that it is finite, we would just hit a brick wall or something if we went to the edge of the universe? Nope.....

You just know eh? How many logically minded people have you asked. And how many of these people are either scientists, cosmologists?

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, you just think you know because it seems to make sense to you. Well if you look harder and read deeper, you may find that there is not one answer as you think there is.

Also, if you read the book I was talking about, you would see that in a finite universe, you would not hit a "wall," rather you would just end up where you started given enough time. It is possible to travel infinite distance in a finite space.

[MatrixWatch]

dwin,
good book recommendation. I have it on my shelf here along side "The Universe In A Nutshell". Both are excellent books. I bought a really nice hardcover set with all the new illustrations. A fantastic edition.

I agree with your counter to tcb's argument about the universe, and it really is a poor way to argue for the matrix sites anyway.

[tcb1969a]

Actually I studied it awhile back, and do know what I am talking about. The universe is infinite, and you can not travel far enough and wind up back at the beginning, that is just fantasy....

[dwin75]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Actually I studied it awhile back, and do know what I am talking about. The universe is infinite, and you can not travel far enough and wind up back at the beginning, that is just fantasy....

Well here is a link from NASA:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

I don't care how much you think you know, there is no way you can say the universe is infinite and know for sure. I will give you that it is possible that the universe is infinite, but there are also theories that it is not. Neither has been proven nor disproven, therefore they are neither fact, nor fiction, just theory. The theory of travelling in a circle is not fantasy, but also theory.

If you think the argument of an infinite universe would help your matrix cause, I would have to say that the court would think otherwise given that it is theoretical knowlege. This was the basis of your argument, and though it could be true, there is no way to know until more scientific discoveries are made.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by dwin75
Well here is a link from NASA:

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html

I don't care how much you think you know, there is no way you can say the universe is infinite and know for sure. I will give you that it is possible that the universe is infinite, but there are also theories that it is not. Neither has been proven nor disproven, therefore they are neither fact, nor fiction, just theory. The theory of travelling in a circle is not fantasy, but also theory.

If you think the argument of an infinite universe would help your matrix cause, I would have to say that the court would think otherwise given that it is theoretical knowlege. This was the basis of your argument, and though it could be true, there is no way to know until more scientific discoveries are made.

Well, I don't think that the theory of the universe is going to help the matrix cause. I was merely stating a response to the finite universe comment that was made. When that statement was made it was implied that it was fact, when clearly it is not. It is by your own admission a Theory, neither which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt......

Also Nasa is the last bunch of people you should believe know what they are talking about. They change their minds on theory more times than most people change their underwear......

[dwin75]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well, I don't think that the theory of the universe is going to help the matrix cause. I was merely stating a response to the finite universe comment that was made. When that statement was made it was implied that it was fact, when clearly it is not. It is by your own admission a Theory, neither which can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt......

Also Nasa is the last bunch of people you should believe know what they are talking about. They change their minds on theory more times than most people change their underwear......

I would never trust NASA solely, however the text on the site are for the most part consistent with other sources I have read.

Aside from the universe argument, the idea of a matrix continuing without outside influence seems in-probable, there will always be outside influence. The argument that the matrix will out live us and will keep going, again I don't see it. The fact is that today, I think there are enough people who see too many problems with the idea. Therefore, since the population is divided, and I would have to say heavily to being against the idea, that even with future generations and people re-investing, the resources are finite and limited.

I personally do not like the idea because of how many people get screwed. And of those who sign up for matrix sites, most don't realize the gamble because of the deceiving nature of promoting people are using. It is a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme or whatever you want to call it. It hurts more than it helps. History has shown the problems with these schemes.

Just like the movie the matrix, the matrix represents a trap. Oh and by the way Watchdog, I cannot think of anything more appropriate than your signature, it fits so well into this whole idea of a matrix ... Excellent choice.

[concerned]

Lets just say for argument's sake, that the matrix can outlive all of us. OK, does that mean that if the matrix is large enough, I will have to wait 250 years to get my Plasma Screen TV? Gee, a lot of good it will do me then. And by the way, in 250 years the TV will be worth less than a penny!

[dwin75]

Yes, and that brings up another point. Suppose you opt for your cash equivalent. Due to inflation that will occur over 250 years, you will be receiving very little money. Unless of course matrix sites/companies adjust the amount to match the rate of inflation, but how would they do that? where would that money come from?

Just another problem of many!

[tcb1969a]

Amusing......

But as any business, Matrix sites can go under....It is just a business fact, that not all business survive time. So you are right, a site will eventually close....

Also anyone notice my tag......appropriate I think......

[dwin75]

Hmm, yes, appropriate! But I guess it ultimately depends on how much the milk cost you in the first place. If it cost you only $9, well then no use crying. If it cost you $1000, well that is a different story.

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Amusing......

But as any business, Matrix sites can go under....It is just a business fact, that not all business survive time. So you are right, a site will eventually close....

Also anyone notice my tag......appropriate I think......


TCB, I am only trying to respond to the foolish reasoning that matrixfriendly posted earlier in this thread. He basically accused matrixwatch for stopping the matrix sites. He said that as long as there is no interference, the matrix will outlast all of us. Read the quote below. I am just responding to that quote.

Originally posted by matrixfriendly
A matrix site will last indefinetly. PERIOD. It will last until the site shuts down or some kind of outside interference occurs. We do live in a infinite world(humans included) WatchDog. There are humans being born everyday. Are you speculating that the day will come when no more people are born on this earth? Besides the fact that the same people buy in over and over again once they are in the system. The matrix will outlast all of us. So all of this will be a MUTE point!!(MOOT). That was a stab at TCB by you watchdog and was uncalled for. I see that you do not like to stay within the standards in which you set for us matrix supporters. Just because you blanket pokes with sugar coating does not make it any less of a poke at us.

He forgot to mention that the matrix sites failed because they collapsed. But his reasoning again is that they would not collapse because they would run indefinately. Therefore, I made my comment about waiting 250 years. If you don't want to see any more posts like the one I just made, then maybe you guys (matrix supporters) should come up with some logical arguments to make your side look good. As it is, all we seem to read is illogical junk about how 1 guy cycled, so therefore all matrix sites must work. You have to come up with better crap than that.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by concerned
He forgot to mention that the matrix sites failed because they collapsed. But his reasoning again is that they would not collapse because they would run indefinately.

That is a good observation, Concerned. So basically, the argument for the everlasting matrix breaks down because even without outside interference it would collapse in on itself.

Now, either tcb knows nothing about how matrix sites work (read the January MSNBC article), or he just does not care and he's in it for the money. If the latter is the case, then I would prefer that he not litter the forums with his self-serving comments, and allow us to debate the important issues undistracted.

[tcb1969a]

How many times have I told you Watch Dog, that I have made more money being a Matrix Customer than a Matrix Owner....hmm

Isn't funny how you can attack me at whim and it is ok, but if I do it is not....And you call that justice.....

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
TCB, I am only trying to respond to the foolish reasoning that matrixfriendly posted earlier in this thread. He basically accused matrixwatch for stopping the matrix sites. He said that as long as there is no interference, the matrix will outlast all of us. Read the quote below. I am just responding to that quote.



He forgot to mention that the matrix sites failed because they collapsed. But his reasoning again is that they would not collapse because they would run indefinately. Therefore, I made my comment about waiting 250 years. If you don't want to see any more posts like the one I just made, then maybe you guys (matrix supporters) should come up with some logical arguments to make your side look good. As it is, all we seem to read is illogical junk about how 1 guy cycled, so therefore all matrix sites must work. You have to come up with better crap than that.

Well, actually theoretically, MatrixFriendly is correct, as long as there is no outside interference, then a Matrix site will go on and on and on. But unfortunately, there often is outside interference. Usually from people who think they know what's best for other people's money....All along not realizing that they, Watch Dog and Crew, are causing the most harm.....

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well, actually theoretically, MatrixFriendly is correct, as long as there is no outside interference, then a Matrix site will go on and on and on. But unfortunately, there often is outside interference. Usually from people who think they know what's best for other people's money....All along not realizing that they, Watch Dog and Crew, are causing the most harm.....

OK, then if matrixfriendly is correct, then explain how it might be possible for me to have to wait 250 years for something that will be completely worthless when I get it. And on top of that, please explain how the fact that I haven't cycled in 250 years won't cause me to start to complain, therefor that would be outside interference. Please explain how thousands of people would be willing to to wait tens or hundreds of years without complaining.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
OK, then if matrixfriendly is correct, then explain how it might be possible for me to have to wait 250 years for something that will be completely worthless when I get it. And on top of that, please explain how the fact that I haven't cycled in 250 years won't cause me to start to complain, therefor that would be outside interference. Please explain how thousands of people would be willing to to wait tens or hundreds of years without complaining.

Did you not read my post. I said in theory a Matrix site will go on and on and on. I never said people would continue to cycle....And also I did mention that there are often outside interference such as this site, or perhaps not living to be 250 years old......

[hurley9192]

that's where rsient.com went under...it got to the point that at the current growth rate, it would take 6 years to get your prize. In 6 years, they probably wouldn't have the prize anymore and it would then have 20,000 more people waiting for their prize. I guess you could leave the matrix list run forever, but it will become stagnant and you will just have people sitting there.

[dwin75]

Coming back to theory again. Just like in science, "in Theory" and "In Practice" are always different. As the matrix idea may work in theory, in practice it won't because of how pissed off people will get, along with about a billion other problems.

Just as a side note, it seems that at least in starting this thread, that a pro-matrix argument has started as I was originally looking for when I entered this forum.

[concerned]

Originally posted by dwin75
Coming back to theory again. Just like in science, "in Theory" and "In Practice" are always different. As the matrix idea may work in theory, in practice it won't because of how pissed off people will get, along with about a billion other problems.

Just as a side note, it seems that at least in starting this thread, that a pro-matrix argument has started as I was originally looking for when I entered this forum.

Yeah, there is a pro matrix argument, but like so many others, this argument will lead NOWHERE!

[Arzel]

Wow, I did not think that my statement of a finite universe would start such a discussion.

Thanks dwin, you made the point which I was going to make. Stephen Hawkings "A brief history of time." is a great book, I have a copy in front of me as well. I will have to read the other book to which Watchdog referred.

tcb,

In an ever expanding universe space and time are infinite, whether we live in a closed or open system is yet to be determined. However, regardless of that fact, there is a finite amount of material in our univerise, thus a finute amount of resources available.

[tcb1969a]

Ok....people....I guess I will give a lesson....This will be brief, either you catch on or you don't.

The Universe is just not the formed Cosmos, but also the unformed Cosmos. When those speak of an expanding Universe they are referring to the Universe getting larger with more stars and such. For in order for the Universe to expand it has to expand into something, which is a black oblivion for which is part of the ever forming Universe.

Now I have to go to work, either you understand that the first time or you do not........

[matrixfriendly]

This is really all just a moot point when debating the matrix system. Nobody can prove either way the amount of resources that may or may not be available. Besides as I have stated before a matrix site only has to outlast the owner. Period. There is no possible way that we (infinite or finite) will run out of resources by then. Unless there is a worldly disaster of some sort in which we are again back to a moot point. If something like that happens I think we all can agree that a matrix site will be the least of our worries.

[Arzel]

tcb,

I suggest you take a class in physics, or at least read Stephen Hawkings.

First Law of Thermodynamics.

What is the first rule?
As you learned earlier, energy can be exchanged between the system of interest and its surroundings. However, the total energy of the system plus the surroundings is constant. That's the First Law of Thermodynamics. The First Law is also stated as energy is conserved.
How do we know this? This is an empirical law, which means that we know that energy is conserved because of many repeated experiments by scientists. It's been observed that you can't get any more energy out of a system than you put into it . James Prescott Joule did a famous experiment which demonstrated the conservation of energy and showed that heat and work were both of the same nature: energy. His system of interest was water in a thermally insulated container. In this container was also a paddle which was connected to the outside world (surroundings) and connected to weights on a string. Joule measured the work done by the paddle wheel and he also measured the heat created by the wheel turning in the water. Significantly, Joule found that the amount of energy done as work was converted exactly to heat. Energy was changed from one form to another (work to heat); however, no net change of energy in the system plus the surroundings occured. Energy is conserved.


Mass does not just pop out of nothingness.

Matrix,

I suggest you take a class in economics.

[matrixfriendly]

No need to take night classes to figure this out. You can basically let a site sit forever without any movement. Thus not being fraudulent. As long as the site is open there is no fear of fraud as long as you did not put a definite cycle time.

[dwin75]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Ok....people....I guess I will give a lesson....This will be brief, either you catch on or you don't.

The Universe is just not the formed Cosmos, but also the unformed Cosmos. When those speak of an expanding Universe they are referring to the Universe getting larger with more stars and such. For in order for the Universe to expand it has to expand into something, which is a black oblivion for which is part of the ever forming Universe.

Now I have to go to work, either you understand that the first time or you do not........

Again, I have a problem with this statement. The universe does not include that which has not formed. For that which has not formed, is nothing, or mathematically speaking, undefined.

Take Azrel's advice ...

[matrixfriendly]

Originally posted by dwin75
Again, I have a problem with this statement. The universe does not include that which has not formed. For that which has not formed, is nothing, or mathematically speaking, undefined.

Take Azrel's advice ...

He is not stating that the universe includes that which has not formed. He is stating that the expanding universe includes that which is not formed. The expanding universe would include all that is too come.

[Arzel]

The universe contained all of the energy and mass that it will ever contain at the time of creation. Nothing can be added, nothing can be taken away.

[matrixfriendly]

I have re-thought my last post. The universe is expanding but not necessarily developing more mass. The expansion is to be taken as surrounding galaxies are moving further away from us as time passes. This is calculated by the redshift of a particular galaxy.

[tcb1969a]

Here is an infinite response to Infinite Universe Phylosophy...No pun intended....


www.btinternet.com/~pnhaseman/ (http://www.btinternet.com/~pnhaseman/)

[concerned]

WOW, it is amazing that this thread went this way. Someone asks for some good matrix pro arguments, and all he gets is crap about how the universe is infinate, and how cosmos are created. I didn't know that new cosmos in outer space determined the legality of a matrix website. If the only way to make a GOOD argument in favor of matrix websites is to talk about the universe, and not about the matrix sites or their business models, then I guess you have proven that there are NO GOOD ARGUMENTS. If this is the case, then the only way the matrix community can win this lawsuit is to get Johnnie Cochran as their lawyer.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit." HAHAHA

[hurley9192]

the next pro-matrix argument will be what came first...

the ebook or the free gift??

Yes, I suppose that if you kept your list going that you wouldn't be defrauding people, just making them more and more upset that they are still sitting on the list and not going anywhere. However, the problem is that there are tons of unsuspecting people that only see one site, put in their $25 and think "what the heck" and see what happens. It's the savvy matrix site owner that is betting on the fact that they won't get the hint for over a month and by then, it's too late to get their money back. That way, the people who are at the top of the lists still cycle.

[mikv]

This thread ran completely OFF TRACK from the beginning. Isn't this why others were banned? These forums are losing more focus....Let's get back to the issues!