A Logically-Consistent Arugument

[MatrixWatch]

I have yet to find a logically-consistent argument in support of the matrix sites. I have not heard anything of merit thus far, even after several site closures, eBay crackdowns, processor freezes, and the emergence of several disgruntled customers. They have their supporters here at matrixwatch.org, and yet there has been nothing brought up by their side that would sway the general public opinion. They even started a "matrixwatchsucks.com" website to further "discredit" our claims, but that site has nothing on it but vain ranting from a bunch of supporters who didn't like being suspended from our forums, basing their counter-claims upon a flurry of Ad Hominem arguments. It seems that their greatest defence is to push their limits here on the Matrix Watch forums in order to get banned from this site, so that they will never have to deal with the conclusive arguments that we throw their way.

All the while, embittered customers continue to flock here and get their questions answered. And all the while, matrix-site owners cannot deliver on the promises these customers hoped for. On top of that, many pay companies who pledged that they would not freeze the accounts of matrix sites have changed their stance on the issue, and massive amounts of assets have been frozen. Every week a new pay company opens on behalf of the site owners with that same pledge to "never freeze your account", just as new matrix sites open every day on behalf of the matrix customers promising that "you will cycle fast, and we won't close down". The whole industry is divided against itself, and it lies in ruin.

The least you could do is offer a conclusive argument to explain yourselves in front of your customers, but all that is offered is a continual cycle of blame-shifting, and passing the buck when responsibility lies in your lap.

I am reminded of a quote by Thomas Jefferson that applies well to this situation:

"But every difference of opinion is not a difference of
principle. ... If there be any among us who would wish to
dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let
them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with
which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is
left free to combat it."

Matrix Supporters, you are among us... Has reason been left free to combat (and defeat) you?

[tcb1969a]

Well, I was going to write something sarcastic about you qouting Thomas Jefferson, but took it out at the last moment.....

Anyways, here is my argument.....

Free Will.....

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Well, I was going to write something sarcastic about you qouting Thomas Jefferson, but took it out at the last moment.....

Anyways, here is my argument.....

Free Will.....

Is that the most LOGICAL argument that you can come up with?

[tcb1969a]

No....it is not, but it is the simplest one.....

[hurley9192]

it actually makes some sense...as long as you are not misleading and have proper rights to run a site that it like this. If some idiot wants to throw away their money with the hope of getting something, then they are entitled to. It's pretty much like online gambling. But, that's where I get into the rights to have a site like this...you have to be able to run this type of business.

[tcb1969a]

Well, I don't believe in being dishonest or misleading, when running a matrix site. I try to be honest with the customer in the information provided, and if they are unsure about something, by all means email me and I will answer their questions....

But in the end, they have a free will to be able to put their money in a matrix site.....Nothing this site says or does, will change that.

Remember not all matrix sites are bad, and with any business type their are bound to be some bad apples. But you can not demonize the whole group just because of a few bad apples.....

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by hurley9192
it actually makes some sense...as long as you are not misleading and have proper rights to run a site that it like this. If some idiot wants to throw away their money with the hope of getting something, then they are entitled to. It's pretty much like online gambling. But, that's where I get into the rights to have a site like this...you have to be able to run this type of business.

No hurley, it does not make any sense to use this argument. If you follow your logic out we would have absolute anarchy in society. On a basic level, I have the freedom to kill and cheat, but I exchange some of my liberties for the good of society as a whole. This is why we have laws against murder, theft, and even illegal lotteries in America. If this argument for the "free will of the customer" (caveat emptor) is the best argument that the matrix community can come up with, then that is just poor.

Think of yourself hurley.. Weren't you just trying to get some golf clubs? Didn't the matrix site seem legitimate? I assume that this is why you brought up the conditions-

"...as long as you are not misleading and have proper rights to run a site that it like this..."

The matrix sites are incredibly misleading, and none of them are telling the full truth as it is explained in the January MSNBC article. Do they mention that it could be years before a person cycles off a long list? Do they mention that there are several lawsuits pending against these sites as corporations are required to do (press releases)? Let's face it, these matrix sites create a feeling of expectation in the minds of customers and then they sell them something that the customer ends up regretting. Sure, a few people get in early and cycle, but the rest are duped and they need to go through the hassle of getting a refund. These matrix sites thrive on misinformation.

The matrix sites need to make a better argument than "free will" to legitimate their side of the story. "Free will" will not come up in court.

[tcb1969a]

Um....one flaw in your logic Watch Dog, Murder and Theft are against another person or entity. Where as a persons Free Will to do with what they want to do with their money, is there own perogative, and hurts no one but themselves.....

There is where the difference lies. And not all Matrix sites are misleading. You are generalizing.......

[hurley9192]

I guess where I am coming from is that if they want to have a website like this, and have the rights to run it through legal means and aren't misleading and the people know what's going on and still want to throw their money into it, then they might as well. It's similar to running an office pool with your buddies, they all know that it's a game of chance. A matrix site is more structured in how they pay out, but if it's a bunch of pro matrix people that all do their own website, then they are entitled to throw their money into it.

However, I am against unsuspecting people that see this and think that they will get something out of it.

Now, if they are ruled to be illegal, then that's a whole different story, but if they are ruled legal, then just don't take advantage of people that don't know what's going on with false promises.

[MatrixWatch]

Be that as it may, I am still waiting for that "Logically-Consistent" argument that the pro-matrix side needs to justify itself before their former customers..

[tcb1969a]

There is nothing "Logically-Consistent" in your book Watch Dog. Anything that supports the Matrix concept, is dismissed in your mind.....

[joelm23]

"not all matrix sites are bad"

Define what a good one is, then. Give me the links for a few good ones. How can something that is bound to fail and screw someone out of their hard-earned money be considered "good" on any level?

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
There is nothing "Logically-Consistent" in your book Watch Dog. Anything that supports the Matrix concept, is dismissed in your mind.....

But there you go with another "ad hominem" argument again (an as hominem is an argument fallacy where instead of responding to the issue, an attack is made upon the person making the argument). You see, tcb, all you are doing in this thread is verifying what I said in the first place. You are not responding to the issues here, and the only way you are justifying yourself before everyone is by attacking me, or stating that it is the customer's fault (free will) for getting involved in the first place. I do not see much hope for the matrix community here if this is all you guys can come up with to answer our questions.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by joelm23
"not all matrix sites are bad"

Define what a good one is, then. Give me the links for a few good ones. How can something that is bound to fail and screw someone out of their hard-earned money be considered "good" on any level?

Exactly.. I want to hold these guys to the wall on these issues and force an answer out of them today. They have a lot of explaining to do.

[concerned]

Watchdog is right. If you all got together and came up with some convincing arguments, maybe you would convince others that you are correct. Who knows, if you are convincing enough, maybe you could convince me to change my mind. But in order to do that, you have to have concrete proof that you are correct. I'd be more than happy to change my mind, ONLY IF THERE IS A REASON TO DO SO!

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
But there you go with another "ad hominem" argument again (an as hominem is an argument fallacy where instead of responding to the issue, an attack is made upon the person making the argument). You see, tcb, all you are doing in this thread is verifying what I said in the first place. You are not responding to the issues here, and the only way you are justifying yourself before everyone is by attacking me, or stating that it is the customer's fault (free will) for getting involved in the first place. I do not see much hope for the matrix community here if this is all you guys can come up with to answer our questions.

Because I am tired of repeating myself to you. You know the discussions we had before on where I stand on the Matrix issue as well as where you stand. No matter how many times I explain it, it falls upon deaf ears. If you want to take it as an attack, so be it. But I am not one for repeating myself. Period. Also let me clarify, how many times you all have insulted me or attacked me saying how stupid my statements are. Yet you think by showing me disrespect I am suppose to respect you....hmm

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
Watchdog is right. If you all got together and came up with some convincing arguments, maybe you would convince others that you are correct. Who knows, if you are convincing enough, maybe you could convince me to change my mind. But in order to do that, you have to have concrete proof that you are correct. I'd be more than happy to change my mind, ONLY IF THERE IS A REASON TO DO SO!

No Watch Dog, is very rarely right, and when he is, even I have been known to say he is.....

Simply, I am tired of beating a dead horse, I have many times put my side forth, in some pretty good debates, which some members on here will attest. And yet I am now being told that I am not putting forth any arguments. Despite the fact that I already have on numerous occassions. That is why I have the most posts on this forum......

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Because I am tired of repeating myself to you. You know the discussions we had before on where I stand on the Matrix issue as well as where you stand. No matter how many times I explain it, it falls upon deaf ears.

Well, please do me the favor of digging up those old discussions and posting a copy of your "logical" argument here for us all to see. Neither myself, nor the other members in this discussion, can remember where or when you made this enlightened argument. I say you are bluffing, and you never made any consistent argument.



Also let me clarify, how many times you all have insulted me or attacked me saying how stupid my statements are. Yet you think by showing me disrespect I am suppose to respect you....hmm


and in your following post


No Watch Dog, is very rarely right, and when he is, even I have been known to say he is.....



You see, there you go with another ad hominem argument. This is your favorite thing to do. You attack the person(s) making the argument and think that discredits what they are saying to you. Read through this thread one more time, and RESPOND directly to the issues.

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
No Watch Dog, is very rarely right, and when he is, even I have been known to say he is.....

Simply, I am tired of beating a dead horse, I have many times put my side forth, in some pretty good debates, which some members on here will attest. And yet I am now being told that I am not putting forth any arguments. Despite the fact that I already have on numerous occassions. That is why I have the most posts on this forum......

I will agree with you, you have put out lots of reasons why YOU think that the matrix sites are legal. The point here is that they are asking for LOGICALLY-CONSISTANT ARGUMENTS. None of your arguments thus far have a bit of logic.

What we are talking about is concrete proof. If you have a mathematical equation that states that everybody will get their prize, and at the end, there will bo NOBODY left in the matrix, then that is the type of arguments you need to post here.

I am tired of the illogical arguments such as:

"I cycled, so therefor the matrix works"

That type of argument has no logic whatsoever.

[tcb1969a]

No I am not going to dig up past posts. It is a waste of my time. But if you want to deny my good debates on here. Then go ahead. But even you at one point admited somewhere on here that I made some good points and good debates. But that is neither here or there.....

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
I will agree with you, you have put out lots of reasons why YOU think that the matrix sites are legal. The point here is that they are asking for LOGICALLY-CONSISTANT ARGUMENTS. None of your arguments thus far have a bit of logic.

What we are talking about is concrete proof. If you have a mathematical equation that states that everybody will get their prize, and at the end, there will bo NOBODY left in the matrix, then that is the type of arguments you need to post here.

I am tired of the illogical arguments such as:

"I cycled, so therefor the matrix works"

That type of argument has no logic whatsoever.

I have never said everybody will cycle. But if you do your homework, you will find out which sites to put your money into and which sites not to. Also, no matter how much you all hate this term, it still applys......People have Free Will......Period......

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
I have never said everybody will cycle. But if you do your homework, you will find out which sites to put your money into and which sites not to. Also, no matter how much you all hate this term, it still applys......People have Free Will......Period......

You are completely correct, people do have free will.

ALL OF US HERE HAVE FREE WILL TO TRY TO STOP THESE SITES FROM HURTING OTHERS AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Ohh, I bet it hurts when your most logical argument turns around to bite you in the behind!

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
No I am not going to dig up past posts. It is a waste of my time. But if you want to deny my good debates on here. Then go ahead. But even you at one point admited somewhere on here that I made some good points and good debates. But that is neither here or there.....

Once again, you are backing down.

Let me explain to how that makes you look before all of us, and your fellow matrix supporters.

You may think that what you say makes a lot of sense, but now we are asking you to defend your points logically, which you have not done, and obviously cannot do. To those of us who study logic, and think logically, we are thinking, "this guy cannot defend himself. Why should we listen to anything he has to say".

Face it, you have no arguments, and that is why you cannot stand up to defend yourself here. It would be better if you just backed down and admitted that you cannot logically argue your point than to continue digging yourself in deeper.

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
No I am not going to dig up past posts. It is a waste of my time. But if you want to deny my good debates on here. Then go ahead. But even you at one point admited somewhere on here that I made some good points and good debates. But that is neither here or there.....

I may have said that your arguments might have been good, but I never said that they had any logic to them.

[tcb1969a]

No actually it does not hurt.......I understand the concern, and that is why I came on here, even after constant slamming, I still chose to explain my side awhile back...

All I am saying is you should not go after the good matrix sites that are trying to help people, because of a few bad apples....

[MatrixWatch]

someone already challenged you on this one in this discussion

Originally posted by joelm23
"not all matrix sites are bad"

Define what a good one is, then. Give me the links for a few good ones. How can something that is bound to fail and screw someone out of their hard-earned money be considered "good" on any level?

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
Once again, you are backing down.

Let me explain to how that makes you look before all of us, and your fellow matrix supporters.

You may think that what you say makes a lot of sense, but now we are asking you to defend your points logically, which you have not done, and obviously cannot do. To those of us who study logic, and think logically, we are thinking, "this guy cannot defend himself. Why should we listen to anything he has to say".

Face it, you have no arguments, and that is why you cannot stand up to defend yourself here. It would be better if you just backed down and admitted that you cannot logically argue your point than to continue digging yourself in deeper.

Logic!!! You all think logically.........

Oh, please.....

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Logic!!! You all think logically.........

Oh, please.....

Once again, you use an ad hominem argument to defend yourself. Just give up.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
someone already challenged you on this one in this discussion

Ok....MoveMeUp, Imatrix, the420moneymatrix, and there are some more, though I can't think of them off hand....

Oh yea.....BigStarr.....when she was a matrix..........

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
Once again, you use an ad hominem argument to defend yourself. Just give up.

How about we call it a truce.....please give it up with the "ad hominem" thing.....

[concerned]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
No actually it does not hurt.......I understand the concern, and that is why I came on here, even after constant slamming, I still chose to explain my side awhile back...

All I am saying is you should not go after the good matrix sites that are trying to help people, because of a few bad apples....

First of all, MOST of the matrix owners are only in it for the short term to help their pockets and bank accounts. Secondly, I have never seen a good matrix site. Finally, if you think that the matrix concept is good, then maybe you should work with the lawmakers who write the laws. If you think that there are bad apples out there, then you should try to get these sites regulated to weed out the "bad apples". In that case, not only would you get rid of the "bad apples" but you would also eliminate competition that is conducting business unethically. At least trying to get these sites regulated would be the LOGICAL thing to do.

Oh, but I forgot, there is not logic to what the matrix supporters do!

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by concerned
First of all, MOST of the matrix owners are only in it for the short term to help their pockets and bank accounts. Secondly, I have never seen a good matrix site. Finally, if you think that the matrix concept is good, then maybe you should work with the lawmakers who write the laws. If you think that there are bad apples out there, then you should try to get these sites regulated to weed out the "bad apples". In that case, not only would you get rid of the "bad apples" but you would also eliminate competition that is conducting business unethically. At least trying to get these sites regulated would be the LOGICAL thing to do.

Oh, but I forgot, there is not logic to what the matrix supporters do!

Pretty good sarcasm.....But actually there are some of us, like BigStarr and I, who are trying to weed out the bad matrix sites....

[MatrixWatch]

members,
Please keep these matrix people on this subject. Make sure they answer the questions here. They will try to divert the issue into some "back alley" in order to evade the real issues. Force them to either answer the questions logically, or admit defeat.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by watchdog
members,
Please keep these matrix people on this subject. Make sure they answer the questions here. They will try to divert the issue into some "back alley" in order to evade the real issues. Force them to either answer the questions logically, or admit defeat.

If you ever really take a look Watch Dog, most of the time we are only answering questions from previous posts. So if there are any derailings, rarely is it us......

[uwantme]

Originally posted by joelm23
"not all matrix sites are bad"

Define what a good one is, then. Give me the links for a few good ones. How can something that is bound to fail and screw someone out of their hard-earned money be considered "good" on any level?

You know I have stated on this many times. You guys however believe all matrix sites are bad so even the ones we think are good would still be "bad" to you...

However I know of serveral sites that offer tangible goods(not e-books) that are really worth themoney you pay for them without the free gift.. Some of the tangible goods are items I do buy at stores in my area and they are cheaper on the sites once again even without the free gift invovled.... Thats step 1 in my opinion of being a good site but yes there is more to it than than that... Now while I do know several sites that do follow step one I know only a couple that follow steps 2 and 3...

step 2. Take away the endless lists. There are several ways to do this and I dont really care how a site goes about doing but if they make away for the endless lists to go away then they are in great business in my opinion. Now I do know a few sites that are doing steps 1&2.

Step 3. Offer refunds on your products whether its 14 days or 30. Just offer a refund period for members who are unhappy or change their mind. Easy said and done. I know a few sites that er doing steps 1,2,3....

Now I will add step four and right now I only know of about 5 or less sites that are attempting to do this but it will make all of you matrixwatch supporters happy..

Offer free entries into the matrix, meaning you do not have to make a purchase to be put into the matrix system.. How do you do this, well you either have to set it up as an mlm structure or each person is at the top of their own lists. they can join for free or they can pay. If they join for free they are just required to make one more sale than the ones who pay. Or you can add the free entries in the full lists and they dont count towards the top person cycling. For example:

you need 3 people to cycle on this list

jon (cycling)
susie
bob(free spot) "so he doesnt count towards the 3 jon needs to cycle."
pam
todd- now jon has cycled, the pattern continues and when bob gets to the top to cycle and when 3 more paid spots have entered even bob will cycle..

Now this would probably mean less money for the matrix sites, and I would do it where each member is on top of their list or mlm structured, etc... but it can be done..

Now if you add all the elements of steps 1-4 together in a site then I dont see how they could possibly be illegal in any way..
I mean they offer tangible items, no endless lists, refunds, and free entries.... Now while I admit most sites are not set up like this I do know about 5 that are already. I think as more and more sites are forced to close down or are scared off by you guys more and more sites will go to this formula. Or at least I hope... And I know right off the bat a few of you are going to say that wont work blah, blah, blah... but it can work- sure not everyone will be able to pull it off but it has the basis of a legal mlm structure which many multi-billion dollar industries use today and suceed. I good example is avon. And yes these would still be matrix sites, or mlm its still the same design and matrix like network...

[uwantme]

Originally posted by watchdog
I have yet to find a logically-consistent argument in support of the matrix sites. I have not heard anything of merit thus far, even after several site closures, eBay crackdowns, processor freezes, and the emergence of several disgruntled customers. They have their supporters here at matrixwatch.org, and yet there has been nothing brought up by their side that would sway the general public opinion. They even started a "matrixwatchsucks.com" website to further "discredit" our claims, but that site has nothing on it but vain ranting from a bunch of supporters who didn't like being suspended from our forums, basing their counter-claims upon a flurry of Ad Hominem arguments. It seems that their greatest defence is to push their limits here on the Matrix Watch forums in order to get banned from this site, so that they will never have to deal with the conclusive arguments that we throw their way.

All the while, embittered customers continue to flock here and get their questions answered. And all the while, matrix-site owners cannot deliver on the promises these customers hoped for. On top of that, many pay companies who pledged that they would not freeze the accounts of matrix sites have changed their stance on the issue, and massive amounts of assets have been frozen. Every week a new pay company opens on behalf of the site owners with that same pledge to "never freeze your account", just as new matrix sites open every day on behalf of the matrix customers promising that "you will cycle fast, and we won't close down". The whole industry is divided against itself, and it lies in ruin.

The least you could do is offer a conclusive argument to explain yourselves in front of your customers, but all that is offered is a continual cycle of blame-shifting, and passing the buck when responsibility lies in your lap.

I am reminded of a quote by Thomas Jefferson that applies well to this situation:

"But every difference of opinion is not a difference of
principle. ... If there be any among us who would wish to
dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let
them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with
which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is
left free to combat it."

Matrix Supporters, you are among us... Has reason been left free to combat (and defeat) you?

I have often brought up the Subway, haircut, blockbuster arguement in defense and I have yet for anyone to tell me what the difference is exactly and what makes one legal and not the other.....

[joelm23]

OK so the matrixes you mentioned do have more prominent information as to how the thing works, but the fact of the matter is they all operate the same and are thus doomed to fail, meaning someone is going to lose. In fact, alot more people will lose than will get their "gift". Matrix, MLM, pyramid, call it whatever you want, but if it grows exponentially its a scam and its wrong. "Free will" isn't even an issue, its a fact that most people WILL lose their money, so it's not FREE.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hurley9192
it actually makes some sense...as long as you are not misleading and have proper rights to run a site that it like this. If some idiot wants to throw away their money with the hope of getting something, then they are entitled to. It's pretty much like online gambling. But, that's where I get into the rights to have a site like this...you have to be able to run this type of business.

Wow.. Hurley I would never expect something like this to come from you but I think it is very well said and I agree..

[uwantme]

Originally posted by joelm23
OK so the matrixes you mentioned do have more prominent information as to how the thing works, but the fact of the matter is they all operate the same and are thus doomed to fail, meaning someone is going to lose. In fact, alot more people will lose than will get their "gift". Matrix, MLM, pyramid, call it whatever you want, but if it grows exponentially its a scam and its wrong. "Free will" isn't even an issue, its a fact that most people WILL lose their money, so it's not FREE.

I dont know if that was directed at my posts or not, but if you took the time to read all of it you will see that step 4 makes it free to enter. meaning you do not have to make a purchase to be put into the matrix system. If no purchase is invovled there is no way your losing anything..... And just because it grows exponentially doesnt make it a scam or else all businesses like avon, mary kay, herbal life, etc... would be scams because they are set up on the same systems and they are all billion dollar industries....

[MatrixWatch]

Tell us which sites offer a free entry into the matrix without requiring a purchase. Tell us every single one.

[uwantme]

not a chance, watchdog.. I know how you operate. you and your supporters will go to each site and try to disect them piece by piece until you can find a way to prove they are wrong, illegal etc... If want to know what they are find them on your own, I did.. and if you want to say i cant prove it therefore you dont believe me, I dont care. I know they are there and thats enough for me...

[MatrixWatch]

See, you can't even prove your claims with evidence. Find them? The burden of proof rests in your lap. Also, who's to say that these sites won't end up like all the rest. The criteria you've listed was pretty well followed by matrixsale. Where are they?

Here is a post from your biggest pro-matrix sitePosted: Aug 6 2003, 01:39 PM

"Did everyone know that http://www.matrixsale.com closed up shop?
Did anyone get there refunds? I remember just a few months ago Matrixsale was the best site out and now all this. "

[MaxPower]

It's funny that the pro-matrix like to argue that "it is all there in the TOS." And "They knew what they were getting into."

But I have never heard of any site that told the potential customer:

"Only the very first of the customers will see anything in return for their payment, the vast majority of you will just get screwed."

Or how about the closing statement on a TOS being:

"I hope you know what you are getting into!"

[uwantme]

Originally posted by watchdog
See, you can't even prove your claims with evidence. Find them? The burden of proof rests in your lap. Also, who's to say that these sites won't end up like all the rest. The criteria you've listed was pretty well followed by matrixsale. Where are they?

Here is a post from your biggest pro-matrix site

Once again I know they are there and I dont have to prove them to you to feel better about myself, I gave my reasons why I do not disclose their information to you and everyone here knows thats what would happen...

Whos to say that any site will fail or suceed. Thats business. You can have the best idea in the world but if its not excuted right it can fail.. On the same side what does it matter if they do go down? You can get in for free and if you made a purchase from the site knowing you could get in without a purchase that must mean you wanted whatever tangible item they were selling. So as long as you got what you payed for, and you payed for it because you wanted it then you have lost anything.. I never saw matrixsale.com that wasnt a post by me that you quoted so I really have no idea what you are talking about with that...

Also still waiting for a good liable aurguemnt over all the subway, blockbuster, haircurt examples, that all require you to make a purchase for your free gift and what the difference is?

[hurley9192]

I'm not necessarily a matrix hater, but against the use of ebay and the use of the site to be misleading. however, if it is ruled illegal, which it probably will be based on my research through the fraud manual, then it should be stopped. But, if you get a bunch of people together that all know what's going on and still want to throw their money in, then so be it. Gambling is illegal, but you still see people setting up their office pool at the beginning of March.

As with the Subway argument...

Subway...you pay $5 for 10 subs=$50 and get a $5 sub free.

Matrix...you pay $45 for some product and get a $900 product free. If you paid into the matrix $45 ten times and got a $40 free gift, it would be hard to argue against that type of matrix. However, no one will sign up for that and you would make a boatload of cash in the process.

If your matrix was like the subway thing, you would pay $3000 and buy 10 X-box's or whatever and get an X-box free. So, they are totally different things.

[uwantme]

Originally posted by MaxPower
It's funny that the pro-matrix like to argue that "it is all there in the TOS." And "They knew what they were getting into."

But I have never heard of any site that told the potential customer:

"Only the very first of the customers will see anything in return for their payment, the vast majority of you will just get screwed."

Or how about the closing statement on a TOS being:

"I hope you know what you are getting into!"

I didnt see to many people arguing the about the TOS.. but my only statement to this is that I dont honestly think it would matter too much if they did. I mean think about half the people never read the TOS anyway and to some it just wouldnt matter. I mean the lottery clearly states that your chances of winning are like 1 in 14 million yet everday people poor tons and tons of money into it hoping they are that 1. So even if site owners but on their site chances of recieving your item are 1 in 25, this may not be exactly right I just converted 4 % of 100% which is 1 in 25 maybe? anyway people woulds still go for it if its something they wanted or however you want to state it...

[uwantme]

Originally posted by hurley9192

As with the Subway argument...

Subway...you pay $5 for 10 subs=$50 and get a $5 sub free.

Matrix...you pay $45 for some product and get a $900 product free. If you paid into the matrix $45 ten times and got a $40 free gift, it would be hard to argue against that type of matrix. However, no one will sign up for that and you would make a boatload of cash in the process.

If your matrix was like the subway thing, you would pay $3000 and buy 10 X-box's or whatever and get an X-box free. So, they are totally different things.

You example does not make sense to me... Your saying that if the free product is worth more than what you paid to recieve it then its illegal? Show me the law that says the free gift cannot me worth more than the product you are selling..

Also please x-plain what you mean when you say you would pay $3000 for 10 x-boxes and get 1 free. I dont understand that either....

[dwin75]

Originally posted by uwantme
not a chance, watchdog.. I know how you operate. you and your supporters will go to each site and try to disect them piece by piece until you can find a way to prove they are wrong, illegal etc... If want to know what they are find them on your own, I did.. and if you want to say i cant prove it therefore you dont believe me, I dont care. I know they are there and thats enough for me...

Why won't you tell us? What are you afraid of? If it is not a scam, perfectly legal, then what is the problem? If there is no problem with it then we won't find it.

Obviously you know deep down there is a problem. It doesn't matter, either way, if we don't find it, someone will.

[dbright]

Originally posted by uwantme
You example does not make sense to me... Your saying that if the free product is worth more than what you paid to recieve it then its illegal? Show me the law that says the free gift cannot me worth more than the product you are selling..

Also please x-plain what you mean when you say you would pay $3000 for 10 x-boxes and get 1 free. I dont understand that either....

Uwantme, that actual argument about subway, haircuts, and so on is that getting your "free gift" only depends on what YOU purchase. It doesn't matter how many subs Joe Blow orders in the line next to you as it will not affect what you recieve. Getting your free gift from a business such as subway is only dependant on YOUR OWN purchases.

With a matrix site, OTHER CUSTOMERS are REQUIRED for you to get your free gift. That should be easy enough to understand and that is where the pyramid issue comes into play.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by dbright
With a matrix site, OTHER CUSTOMERS are REQUIRED for you to get your free gift. That should be easy enough to understand and that is where the pyramid issue comes into play.

Yes. And it is the fact that other customers are needed that creates a situation based upon chance. That was the logic that my lawyer empoyed in the May, MSNBC article (read it again). Buy ten subs, get an eleventh free is okay, but if the Subway then offered to place your name in a free trip sweepstakes, all for your purchase of a sub, then that would be an illegal lottery, since they would be offering a game of chance in exchange for a purchase.

You will probably argue that it is a chance whether or not the person will buy the subs. You are right, IF I am gambling on the fact. But for the buyer, the odds are completely within his control.. Thus, all of your arguments about free subs and haircuts are non-issues, red herrings, and they do not put you on the path of giving us ONE LOGICALLY-CONSISTENT ARGUMENT TO PROVE THAT THE MATRIX IS LEGIT.

[Arzel]

What is even the point of explaining the difference to you? You will not accept it regardless.

Subway:

This is a marketing plan to encourage people to purchase subs.
1. The sub is the same price regardless of any promotion.
2. You are not required to have additional people buy anything for you to get your free sub.
3. People can and do buy the subs just for the food, and the food is comparitively priced to other business selling the same product.
4. NO ONE buys a sub just to get the tickets to get a free sub, becuase the bonus and the item are the same.

Matrix:

1. The same or similar ebook is offered for different prices for different prizes.
2. You are required to have additional people buy before you can obtain your free item.
3. No one comes to a matrix site looking for an ebook or some other worthless piece of junk.
4. People buy the ebook or piece of junk only to have a chance to win a prize.

Subway:

1. Every person has the same exact chance of obtaining a free sub. Illegal, no.
2. Your actions do not depend on someone else. Illegal, No.
3. Not everyone goes to subway, only those that like the subs. If you didn't like the subs you would never buy more to get a free sub. Illegal, No.
4. No one would buy a sub and not eat it just to get a ticket for a free sub. Illegal, No.


Matrix:

1. Indicates that the value of the ebook or other item has an arbitary value not consistant across the market place. Illegal, probably not, but suspect.
2. Indicates some sort of pyrimid scheme, and at the very least a MLM type arangement. Illegal, to be determined.
3. Indicates a token item. Illegal, Yes according to the FTC
4. Indicates a lottery. Illegal, Yes according to the California Penal code, along with the federal government and most states.

[hurley9192]

My point was showing how the matrix worked vs. Subway.

You want to pay $30 for one X Box or whatever. Then, 9 other people would all have to pay $30, for you to get the X Box.

Or, you could pay $300 ($30x10) and buy all 10 spots and then get one free.

With subway, you pay $50 and get one free worth $5. With a matrix, you pay $50 and get $500 back based on others buying in. I'm not saying that this makes it illegal, it just isn't the same thing as subway.

[matrixfriendly]

Yall are comparing two different animals here. You can compare all day long the differences between the Subway promotion and a Matrix site and it will make no difference. You have to compare apples to apples in order to get anywhere. Yes there are similarities in the two, but this does not make them one. The same goes for Ponzi, pyramid or any other type of system. Unless they are exactly the same, they are different and cannot be classed together. You might as well come to terms that it does not fall directly into a Ponzi, pyramid, or illegal lottery category. Yes, it may have qualities of one or all of these, but the fact still remains that it does not fit completely into any one category. Whether a matrix is legal or not, well that is yet to be seen. There is no perfect answer for your logical-consistent argument. As for there is no answer for your anti-matrix conclusion. These are all opinions and will be until a judge determines otherwise.

[dbright]

Originally posted by matrixfriendly
Yall are comparing two different animals here. You can compare all day long the differences between the Subway promotion and a Matrix site and it will make no difference. You have to compare apples to apples in order to get anywhere. Yes there are similarities in the two, but this does not make them one. The same goes for Ponzi, pyramid or any other type of system. Unless they are exactly the same, they are different and cannot be classed together. You might as well come to terms that it does not fall directly into a Ponzi, pyramid, or illegal lottery category. Yes, it may have qualities of one or all of these, but the fact still remains that it does not fit completely into any one category. Whether a matrix is legal or not, well that is yet to be seen. There is no perfect answer for your logical-consistent argument. As for there is no answer for your anti-matrix conclusion. These are all opinions and will be until a judge determines otherwise.

Matrixfriendly, what part of the concept of most matrix sites do not fit completely the definition of a ponzi/pyramid scheme? Just taking Ezexpo as the prime example, that site fits pefectly. Tell me what part of Ezexpo's business model does not fit. Facts only please.

[matrixfriendly]

It does not fit into any one category completely. You give me the facts on how it does. You are with the accusing group so you give me the exact fit into any one of these categories and then I will respond. Only fit it completely into one of these categories (Ponzi, Pyramid, or illegal lottery). Remember this needs to be a complete fit into one of these catagories.

[dbright]

Matrixfriendly, I asked you which part of the concept doesn't fit. You made the statement that it doesn't fit into one catagory completely. The only difference between a pyramid and a ponzi scheme is that a ponzi scheme GENERALLY does not offer a product....as taken off the FTC website:

"A Ponzi scheme is closely related to a pyramid because it revolves around continuous recruiting, but in a Ponzi scheme the promoter generally has no product to sell and pays no commission to investors who recruit new "members." "

A ponzi scheme is a form of an illegal pyramid so i'm asking you which aspect of the business model disqualifies a site like ezexpo from either a pyramid or ponzi sceme. As stated above there is the possibility that a ponzi scheme MAY offer a product.

You made the statement and I asked the question so back up what you said.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by dbright
Matrixfriendly, I asked you which part of the concept doesn't fit. You made the statement that it doesn't fit into one catagory completely. The only difference between a pyramid and a ponzi scheme is that a ponzi scheme GENERALLY does not offer a product....as taken off the FTC website:

"A Ponzi scheme is closely related to a pyramid because it revolves around continuous recruiting, but in a Ponzi scheme the promoter generally has no product to sell and pays no commission to investors who recruit new "members." "

A ponzi scheme is a form of an illegal pyramid so i'm asking you which aspect of the business model disqualifies a site like ezexpo from either a pyramid or ponzi sceme. As stated above there is the possibility that a ponzi scheme MAY offer a product.

You made the statement and I asked the question so back up what you said.

Because Matrix Sites offer a product makes it not a Ponzi or Pyramid Scheme......

[dbright]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
Because Matrix Sites offer a product makes it not a Ponzi or Pyramid Scheme......

TCB, nonsense! here is a fact DIRECTLY from the FTC website:

"Some schemes may purport to sell a product, but they often simply use the product to hide their pyramid structure"

Go look it up

[dbright]

TCB, you lost all credibility with me on that last post. A pyramid scheme does deal in products. A ponzi GENERALLY doesn't but it MIGHT. I made a previous post about that so you're reply has no basis in FACT.

You show me your research or post a quote to back up what you just said.

[tcb1969a]

Originally posted by dbright
TCB, you lost all credibility with me on that last post. A pyramid scheme does deal in products. A ponzi GENERALLY doesn't but it MIGHT. I made a previous post about that so you're reply has no basis in FACT.

You show me your research or post a quote to back up what you just said.


My understanding of Pyramid Schemes were that they do not deal with products. You put money in and hope others do to pay you off as well later on.....

[dbright]

Originally posted by tcb1969a
My understanding of Pyramid Schemes were that they do not deal with products. You put money in and hope others do to pay you off as well later on.....

Exactly right TCB but as stated above in my previous postings and as indicated on the FTC site and countless other sites on the web, pyramid schemes always use a guise of a product to mask what is really going on. As stated with a ponzi scheme, they generally do not but sometimes they might.

There is information concerning this on nearly every consumer advocate site on the web, including the FTC, BBB and too many others to list.

[tcb1969a]

Yes....I have read those sites.....

[northstar5757]

I've said this before but I'll say it again. Everyone including the matrix owners know they are running a ponzi scheme. they are just using a cheap product to mask the scam. To those who are actually selling real products (a small minority of sites) then it becomes less distinguishable. In those rare cases it might be ok.

People like tcb justify the matrix because they believe ponzi schemes should be legal. They claim that consumers have the will to decide whether or not to take part. Well I don't agree I certainly understand their view. For instance lots of people beleive that people have a right to smoke in their own private house (basically the same free will argument)