Hiding Behind Anonymity [Archive]

esto

September 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM

I find some in Matrix Watch apparently hide behind anonymity.

For example one of your members is clearly also a member of YMMSS because he or she regularly violates our terms by copying their posts here without permission of their authors. I have consistently been subject to this violation.

Some have been quite candid about their dual membership but others are virtually invisible.

In one recent case a person with a username here Surfer -- who is clearly also a YM member or who has access to our members forums -- has also posted at various other forums. Including an Indonesian one.

We have no way of knowing if these Surfer names refer to the same person. But we do know he Surfer who is here is up to no good.

If we knew who he or she is he or she would be immediately banned from our member forums for consistent violation of our terms of use.

Maybe we live in a world where the capacity to know who we are dealing with is legitimately disguised because of the prevalence of evil. In that case we need at least to hold up the truth of their hiding.

Best, S

(Stephen Rose, NYC)

weirdid

September 17th, 2005, 03:54 PM

esto,

YMMSS members have the freedom to post here, thats more than can be said for the YMMSS forum.

If the mighty kim and his cohorts, were to answer questions in a business like manner, there would be no need for YMMSS members to post here.

What started as a little crack, has now turned into a chasm, you have unrest in your camp esto, and the chance to deal with it in a professional manner has been lost.

weird

surfer

September 17th, 2005, 05:33 PM

#1--It's surfer with a small "s" ;)

#2--I haven't posted in any Indonesian forums. lol
I post only here and infrequently at scam.com

#3--Why would any member in their right mind who
has been lied to and misled by Kim Inman want to
use their YMMSS-Success Through Advertising
username here?

If they are deemed too "negative" at the YMForums,
they are kicked out.

If they are deemed too "negative" in other forums,
they are kicked out.

Why let Kim Inman just steal their money for griping
about being lied to?

"up to no good" lol lol If exposing Kim Inman's
lies is no good, then I plead guilty. :bow:

How many people did I tell to give me $10/month
and they could retire in 3 years?

How many people did I recruit into illegal gifting
programs?

How many people did I guarantee 60-90 day cycle
times, "ensuring" them that I had special funds set
aside so that I would never have to break my
promise.

How many people did I lure into overextending
themselves financially using the lies I just listed?

How many husbands and wives, parents and
children, siblings, etc. are not speaking to each
other because of their involvement in my business?

How many spouses are hiding their involvement in
my business from their partners because they know
they wouldn't approve?

My answer: None.

Kim Inman's answer: the casualties are still climbing.
I guess the man has a few more lives left to ruin.

Kim Inman's complete and continued deception of
his followers is causing more and more to step forward.

There are a growing number of YMMSS-Success
Through Advertising affiliates here who are willing
to risk their accounts by posting the truth.

Clean up your own house before you try to clean
up ours.

Despite my total disregard for Kim Inman and his
ponzi "business", I would not post anything I viewed
as proprietary information here. Almost everything
I post here is available by conference calls or other
places around the net.

AvidA

September 17th, 2005, 05:59 PM

And furthermore, you only came here to post this ridiculous thread because you want to "out" all the YMers. You're on some power high but you can't reach this high, pal. You don't own the world and neither does YM and they NEVER will. Understand? NEVER. NEVER!!! You're NEVER gonna get anything more from them so you can just stick to what you know which is kissing Kim's butt.
But since YOUR mouth is so big, you may get sued right along with Inman. You have promised some of the same lies and you have slandered, etc. You're not fooling anyone.

brenda

September 17th, 2005, 06:30 PM

we know who Avenging Angel is, and we know who Mat_Watcher is. why don't they use their real names? or are they up to evil?

ram_tough

September 17th, 2005, 11:26 PM

esto doesnt like surfer becuase surfer is way smarter than esto.
esto came hear to clear up confusion and answer questions . but , surfers questions were to much for esto to handle and esto didnt even reply to half of the questions asked by surfer .

even surfer's reply to esto in this very thread is enough to make esto crawl back to ym and refrain from posting here for another month.

AvidA

September 18th, 2005, 01:02 AM

Gringo

September 18th, 2005, 01:46 AM

I find some in Matrix Watch apparently hide behind anonymity.
And just who is Kim hiding from by setting up shop in Belize? Why would a legitimate advertising company do that? Better infrastructure? I don't think so. Maybe, just maybe because Kim knows quite well that his ponzi wouldn't be tollerated long if it were on U.S. soil.

For example one of your members is clearly also a member of YMMSS because he or she regularly violates our terms by copying their posts here without permission of their authors. I have consistently been subject to this violation. My oh my, how horrible! You aren't feeling a little frustrated in not being able to censor posts that you don't like over here are you? Saying something and then regreting that you wrote it and then getting one of your mods to delete it doesn't work over here. So sorry. Think before you write and you won't have to worry about one of us preserving your comments here.

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 02:42 AM

:applause: First of all i would like to say hi 2 everyone here at matrixwatch. I have been sitting on the sidelines watching this discussion for quite some time now, it would seem 2 me that the people at YM have lost grip on reality :shake: I'am a member errrr victim of there scheme talked into by someone that had already made some money signed up in feb 05 so guess what i got jacked out of my money. glad 2 be here look forward to watching YM crash & burn even if some of the fire is my $1300.00

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 02:53 AM

I will also keep an inside eye on those people. I knew it was to good to be true, if theres one thing i did learn thou if its sounds to good to be true it probably is. i have always made a living with my back & my hands (hence the name) and the first time i tried to make a little money otherwise i got beat out of $1300 by some dude named KIM. :head: :nono: however my job has been good to me. That 1300 to me did not hurt that bad I can only imagine the people he has hurt by his lies & bull****

BTCohen

September 18th, 2005, 05:35 AM

AvidA

September 18th, 2005, 05:56 AM

Welcome Concreteman!

If it makes you feel any better...and it probably won't but here goes: One elderly couple were beat out of 35k that they put their property up for so that they could by into YMMSS. When they mentioned their fear and disappointment they were greeted with "well Kim said 'don't bet the farm or the grocery money'" How insensitive. Another woman was in for over 2 years and was cheated out of 20k plus. It would take Kim forever to pay these people back based on the "new system' which will only yield pennies per 320 EPC.
Thank you for helping to build America...and I am glad that it wasn't too painful even though I think we're all a bit angry that someone could be this wretched.

AvidA

September 18th, 2005, 06:01 AM

Concreteman, I respect people who 'work' for a living. I do the same.

However it looks like your friend gave you more lies and bull**** than Kim Inman. The cycle times were already getting high when your friend recruited you.

I am not sure I can ever follow your logic BT. How is it the fault of another one of Kim's victims to get excited about his lies, pass them on fully believing that everything will work out with all these "outside income resources" that have never come to fruition? How do you know that concreteman wasn't just trying it out only to find the worse was true? Maybe he was told and not recruited at all. It doesn't matter. What does matter-- and will surely matter in the future of Kim Inman is that HE lied to thousands and continues to do so. That is more bull**** than this man's friend could ever dream up-with or without a "vision from God" about a doubler/Ponzi.

BTCohen

September 18th, 2005, 07:17 AM

I am not sure I can ever follow your logic BT. How is it the fault of another one of Kim's victims to get excited about his lies, pass them on fully believing that everything will work out with all these "outside income resources" that have never come to fruition? How do you know that concreteman wasn't just trying it out only to find the worse was true? Maybe he was told and not recruited at all. It doesn't matter. What does matter-- and will surely matter in the future of Kim Inman is that HE lied to thousands and continues to do so. That is more bull**** than this man's friend could ever dream up-with or without a "vision from God" about a doubler/Ponzi.

All I am saying is that his friend should have been forthcoming with facts and not allowing 'his' friend to make the same mistakes he had. $1300 is too much money for an expereiment in whether the system is working ior not.

The information that was available on the website was the same information from when the cycle times were stable, so at that time they weren't percieved as lies or bull****. The guy who recruited Concreteman should have had the message by February 05 that cycletimes were not getting better, so in my mind he is the person I would be agrieved with.

Just an opinion Avida. Just like yours.

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 11:47 AM

Thanks AVIDA & BTcohen I personally do believe that I was probably lied to by both of those people KIM & my " friend " i would like to smack them both in the mouth for there lies. I suspect he knew the cycle times were rising but he also might have believed KIMS bull**** :nono: you know I will put the money in there myself crap. Its great being here I look forward to talking to all of you. :applause:

surfer

September 18th, 2005, 12:25 PM

Welcome to Matrix Watch concreteman.

BTCohen, I agree that the person who
recruited him into YMMSS-Success Through
Advertising should be held accountable.

However, false claims and lies all fall on the
man who runs the show. Back in the first
quarter of this year, Kim was stating that
they were implementing short term plans
to reverse cycle times with 3 to 6 months.

That was also when he guessed that cycle
times would peak at 150-160 days. lol lol

Kim Inman routinely changes his story to fit
the situation, i.e. the $60K to $70K weekly
that he promoted for several months before
the system really started to stall at which
point he claimed he had misspoke and it was
only monthly. Then to be a hero, he claims
it "doubled" to $35K/week.

I also find it a little suspicious that the $35K
used to go in every Friday, but now that
the paydays continue to shrink, the $35K is
always claimed to be put in on whatever day
ends up being best for the week.

One also has to wonder whatever happened
to all of the other income sources that Kim
mentioned on the January 15, 2005 conference
call. He claimed it wasn't unusual for them
to be putting in $50K-$100K per week.

Q3: Is there any time frame as to when the first solution would be in place to stop the increase in cycle times? If no clear time frame is given, how high will cycle times actually reach?

A3: Our target to have the servers in place is in the January/February time frame. We hope to have it done before the end of the month. Murphy’s Law seems to be working against us no matter what. We just happen to be processing record sales days right now. Last year our normal daily payout was around $165,000/day; so far this year, the average is $325,000/day. When we hit big sales days, the cycle times will go up. The great thing about this is while those cycle days go up on big sales days; it goes back down whenever those days cycle back around. Whenever we start paying out commissions for November 18, they cycle times will fall because we had days that the system was not operational at all. We have other income sources that we feed into the commission’s payable account and it’s not unusual to put in $50,000-$100,000/week from those sources. I could spend my time analyzing the time frames for such things, but I think it’s much more important to spend my time generating other income sources. I can’t give you an exact date. If we get the retail site up and start selling retail ads, the cycle times will come down. If we get the servers up and start operating 24/7, the cycle times will go down. Until the servers are up, we are losing one full day of sales every 7 days. In other programs, your biggest concern is usually ‘whether’ you will be paid; with us, it is ‘what day’ you will be paid. Try and have some patience as there are some things that are out of our control and we are working hard every day to get the cycle times back down to 90 days so we can manage it at that.

Funny how when the ponzi started stalling
severely, he stopped claiming to be putting
in that money. Obviously, the stats would
have highlighted those lies as well.

Only concreteman can tell us for sure what
his sponsor told him. But Kim Inman was still
misleading everyone.

As an alleged math whiz, Kim Inman knew
damn well how much revenue needed to be
generated to stop the cycle time rise. And
he also knew that it wasn't possible to do
so.

Using November 18 as a starting date, here
are the approximate amounts that would
have been needed to maintain 90 days over
the next 3 cycles.

In the cycle period from 8/20 to 11/18, they
"paid" $29,590,117.00.

The next 90 day cycle would have ended on
2/16/05 and they would have needed to have
"paid" around $65 million in that 90 day period,
or an average over $20 million per month.

The 2/16 to 5/17 cycle would then have needed
to "pay" over $140 million in a 90 day period, or
over $46 million per month.

The 5/17 to 8/15 cycle would then have needed
to "pay" over $315 million in 90 days, around $105
million per month.

To maintain cycle times at 90 days, YMMSS-
Success Through Advertising would have needed
to "pay" over $1 Billion this year.

Somehow, I just can't believe that Kim Inman
wasn't aware of this.

I'm intelligent enough to use a calculator. That
is all that was necessary to figure out that YMMSS-
Success Through Advertising was a ponzi scheme
that could not be maintained.

AvidA, I'm sure Esto would be happy to label me
as a snake in the grass. ;)

Esto will just continue to be a front man for a
"CEO" that's so afraid to be held accountable
for missed deadlines that he stopped making
them. There's a leader for you. lol :rolleyes:

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 12:41 PM

you are so right surfer how many stories have we heard. I personally am so glad you keep track of some of them because there is to many for me to remember. I tell you what and this is for all you pro ymers, this coming friday i will tell my 22 employees that we are restructuring & that pay days will start varying, but to keep faith that there payday will hopefully be back on track when some new job that i cant tell them about comes together just keep working doing what i tell you to and someday i will pay you, someone please have an ambulance ready for me cause i will need it. :eek: And by the way you guys here at matrix watch help me see ym for what it truly is so the next time i get ready to do something stupid like joining something like ym again i will just give my cash to the american red cross. Iam not sure if they had a vision from god or not but thet sure do gods work. thanks for welcoming me surfer i hope to be a contributor to the family here at matrix watch :applause:

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 12:53 PM

And by the way my friend assured me everyone got paid, told me how much he had made i think he said his brother was in it from the start so im sure he was one of the first to get paid. you see my son races sprint cars i joined thinking hey a little extra money for some raceing tires. not to retire like some of the people i have read about on here its sad there is people out there like KIM. I truly care & worry about how my employees & there familys are doing something i suspect KIM has never truly done :nono:

bowmaker

September 18th, 2005, 01:10 PM

Concreteman, I respect people who 'work' for a living. I do the same.

However it looks like your friend gave you more lies and bull**** than Kim Inman. The cycle times were already getting high when your friend recruited you.

it was one of kims top boys ( jim hakim )that met with my parents before they joined back in april, 2005. the cycles times were at 150 days and jim assured them that it was ok to join because the cycle times would come back down after they processed the nov 18th payout . my father asked how long until they processed the nov 18th payout and jim hakim told him that they were 4 weeks away from processing that day . that would have put cycle times going back to 90 days sometime in may . so , based on jim hakim's face to face lie to my parents they joined and here it is september ( almost 6 months later ) and cycle time doubled from the time they joined.

thanks jim hakim . the worst part about it is that the pastor of my parents church is the one who recruited them , and set up a meeting with jim hakim right there in the church . so the fact is jim hakim lied to my parents right inside a church.

i am bowmaker , same name as on the ym forums . i dont hide . do what you will master esto .

surfer

September 18th, 2005, 01:42 PM

And this would be the same Jim Hakim that
sings praises about Kim's ethics and claims
he helped bust some fraudulent scam that
turned into a RICO case. No proof of that
found in our research. Not that it didn't
happen, but......

Certainly, when explaining such info to your
parents, Jim couldn't have possibly left out
the highly important fact that 4 weeks in
calendar days didn't necessarily mean 4
weeks in real time. :nono:

Of course, in the 6 1/2 months since cycle
times were at 149 days, only 23 days have
been processed.

One more relationship potentially ruined by
Kim Inman and his fantastic business. :applause: :applause:

I wonder what the cost is to ruin the
relationship between a pastor and his
parish?

AvidA

September 18th, 2005, 02:32 PM

I am just so ragged off by all of this! surfer, I don't know how you stand your ground so calmly!

Concreteman, I was one of the first two thousand in and I have never been paid. I was supposed to be paid many times but they keep pushing it back down to the bottom of the matrix ladder without a giving me a clue as to why. I suspect it is to keep money in so that each new processing day starts to look like they have more money coming in when actually they're just not paying OUT. Anyway, I am glad you're here.

Bowmaker! Love the new avatar. Killer! :)

Dreamer

September 18th, 2005, 05:27 PM

Its funny...you threaten your own members on your own forums, and now you wanna come over here and threaten our members? Even if you find out who surfer is, he has my PM, he can send me and messages that he wants me to post, and I have no problem not seeking permission from anybody to post it. Wanna sue me. I'll give you my details.

Hell, I'd almost be willing to get my own damn account just to make the private forum public here...but i havent scammed enough people in my day yet to give u bastards any of my money.

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 08:18 PM

I sure would like to meet Mr. esto on the job someday & lets just say i would give him a little old west justice :crazy:

surfer

September 18th, 2005, 09:08 PM

Let's not go down that road concreteman.

I would be satisfied with justice imposed by
the traditional methods. Unfortunately, the
wheels turn especially slow on the net because
of the sheer volume of criminals.

I don't doubt that the SEC may frown upon
the new YMMSS-Success Through Advertising
pay structure since earnings are based
entirely on how much you invest and not on
any effort.

It might just take them a while to get around
to it.

AvidA, I've seen so much of this fraudulent
behavior on the net that it's easy to respond
in a relatively calm fashion. That doesn't
mean that I'm not uttering a few descriptive
expletives as I type. ;)

Making threats, swearing, name calling, and
such rarely create positive results for the
cause.

The perfect example is the YMForums. By
constantly labeling concerned affiliates as
"negative" and allowing some of the zealots
to publicly insult other less "positive" members,
they have driven some away, a few that
ended up here.

That is a necessary side effect of running a
scam. When the lies and broken promises
start to shine through, as they always do,
these con games have to tighten the reigns
on free and open discussion. Since ponzi
schemes only thrive when confidence is high,
allowing too much "negative" chatter in the
forums would make a bad situation even worse
for Kim Inman.

A tempered approach is usually best. The
truth is always the best weapon against
scams. I try to stick with facts and opinions
derived from the facts.

brenda

September 18th, 2005, 09:11 PM

i can envision some of the mods needing to call an ambulance :D

I sure would like to meet Mr. esto on the job someday & lets just say i would give him a little old west justice :crazy:

brenda

September 18th, 2005, 09:20 PM

now they are saying over there that "they do not 'suppress' any questions" lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol what a pack of liars

brenda

September 18th, 2005, 09:35 PM

esto, you never did answer my question. why do mat_watcher and avenging angel come over here ":incognito". (i can speak latin too :D ) are they up to evil, like you think we are? the reason i am "incognito" is because you guys are DANGEROUS. anybody that would have a business in belize and a bank account in St Kitts, must have some kind of "connections". you guys are DANGEROUS.

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 10:39 PM

Just kiddin us concrete guys never lose our temper, your right thou surfer this is not the path of productivity to venture down i geuss i was trying to vent a little. :nono:

concreteman

September 18th, 2005, 10:49 PM

u know brenda i think you like me try to treat people fairly i know i dont know you personally but alot of your veiws are identical to mine. And this cat esto really gets under my skin. :mad:

AvidA

September 18th, 2005, 11:56 PM

Esto gets under everybody's skin. He threatend a woman once.

Surfer, how many have you seen??? I mean I feel incredulous here. This is the first one I have ever been involved in and I am blown away!!

surfer

September 19th, 2005, 06:45 AM

Surrfer, how many have you seen??? I mean I feel incredulous here. This is the first one I have ever been involved in and I am blown away!!
Feels like millions. :crazy:

You just have to do your ad reading to
see plenty. ;)

They've eliminated a fair amount of the
outright scams in the ad forums, but you
can still catch a few in there.

Once you get right past the total ponzis
and pyramids, you're left with overhyped
MLM companies.

Unlike a few here, I don't have a problem
with MLMs, per se. But the way they are
marketed makes many of them questionable.

The more you hang around the net and
look for ways to make money, the more
you'll recognize how things work here on
the Wild, Wild, Web. :)

Lots of sizzle, very little steak. :head:

bowmaker

September 19th, 2005, 10:50 AM

on the ymforum . whenever someone who is deemed as negative makes a post . someoneelse ( usually a mod ) gets on the and starts talking about lif . life is this , life is that , life is giving yourself and embracing change and helping make things happen . sounds to me their definition of life is ymmss . they think i should embrace ymmss no matter what happens . they think i should get involved and help make things happen and get some retail advertisers for them . ymmss is less than 1% of my life and im about ready to cut my losses and make ymmss vanish from my life . its the only part of my life that isnt good .

not only have affiliates been let down and lied to , but with the new sta brochure its plain to see that retail advertisers are being lied to as well. i guess the best way to get someone to do something you want them to is lie to them and give them empty promises.

Leonidas

September 19th, 2005, 11:13 AM

I have to agree with you bowmaker. YMMSS is the only part of my life that is not good. Everytime I look at the YM forums or the weekly payouts it makes me sick and ruins my day. I think it would healthier just to cut my losses, but then Kim is just going to be allowed to continue to do this to more people. :head:

L

brenda

September 19th, 2005, 11:19 AM

ESTO, OH ESTO, why cant you answer my question. why does Mat_watcher come over incognito? Is he up to evil like you accuse of being up to evil being incognito? we know who he is. he comes over here to see what we have posted, and then runs back over there and tells the other mods what we have said, and then we get weird little pm's in our boxes over there. also, avenging angel, comes over here like a little two year old in diapers throwing a tantrum and slinging his baby bottle across the room, we know who he is too.

esto, you never did answer my question. why do mat_watcher and avenging angel come over here ":incognito". (i can speak latin too :D ) are they up to evil, like you think we are? the reason i am "incognito" is because you guys are DANGEROUS. anybody that would have a business in belize and a bank account in St Kitts, must have some kind of "connections". you guys are DANGEROUS.

Leonidas

September 19th, 2005, 12:36 PM

AvidA

September 19th, 2005, 03:04 PM

1. If the 90 million that is claimed to have cycled is actually the same as being paid out since it is claimed that real money was used, then how can taxes not be paid on this "real" money?

2. If an EPC is an actual product with a real value of $10 then why are there no refunds? Seems to me that if you have never cycled and never used your EPC's for advertising you have gained no service from YMMSS and therefore should be able to return your EPC. If they are actually worth something, then why wouldn't Kim be happy to take them back and refund members money??

L

He won't answer you. He comes over here to vent what he calls his intelligence, he comes back to find that surfer just drown him; then he doesn't say anything, tucks his tail and stays away until he thinks hes come up with something else to stump MW.

Leonidas, I asked those same questions in the YMforums and JimH treated them respectfully and tried an answer, but everyone else jumped on me like I was the maniac at an insane asylum with the needle. The thread was then archived.

Anyone else notice that they're slower to delete now but just as quick to archive? I think it's because of what is being said here at MW.

brenda

September 19th, 2005, 03:11 PM

they deleted one of mine the other day, and it wasnt even bad. it was just funny lol

anonmouse

September 19th, 2005, 03:38 PM

I think the way that Esto has slunk away from this thread without responding says it all.

Disgusting.

MatrixWatch

September 19th, 2005, 05:33 PM

I think it would healthier just to cut my losses, but then Kim is just going to be allowed to continue to do this to more people. :head:

L

Good point, and one that needs to be acted upon.

The forums here at MatrixWatch can be helpful in allowing everyone a chance to vent their frustrations about YMMSS, but it needs to be something more than that.

When this same thing was happening with matrix sites, the victims of those sites came here to complain, but the matrix owners would just ban them, and come here occasionally to attack them for "hurting a legitimate enterprise". So, some of the matrix victims started sending off letters to the authorities, filed lawsuits, and contacted the media. That changed thing dramatically.

The scammers started to be truly scared of what their victims could accomplish here, and I'd also like to encourage some of you to think offensively as well. Start getting the media and the government involved. Start sending tons of emails off to lawyers and find a few who will take your claims a step forward. Start posting on the forums out there and tell people about your experience, and then link them back here to this forum for more info. At least you will get people aware of this new program. Better yet, if one aspect of this effort clicks and moves forward, you'll make a huge impact.

We started our first campaign against the matrix sites by getting our story on nationwide television, getting MSNBC to write about it, and gathering & organizing a large group of dedicated people. The results were amazing.

Gathering here at MatrixWatch means changing your mind about the chain of power. The people who scammed you are no longer in charge when you meet here-- YOU are. And that doesn't mean resulting to vigilante justice and striking back in a way that is illegal. It means gathering the momentum needed to turn the scales, and make sure that what happened to you doesn't happen to anyone else. Leonidas was right when he said that "Kim is just going to be allowed to continue to do this to more people". And you guys now have to do something about it. And the good news, is that now you can.

We didn't have half the resources for our effort against the matrix scams that you have now. You only have a small time window to act, and after that it is too late.

Follow Merc's advice, and act now (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2969)

esto

September 19th, 2005, 06:45 PM

That is exactly what I told a YMer today. I said that Esto posted here because he was afraid and that he targeted surfer in particular because surfer is like a snake. He is quiet and no one really knows who he is. He learns and accumulates and that gives him knowlege which is power. And that frightens esto. You bet!

No offense about the "snake" remark, surfer. Actually, I rather like it....watching you blow him over with intelligence that supercedes his. All I have is my anger right now.

Golly I leave for a while and do not have the benefit of these pleasant ad hominems. Give an old fella a break per favor. What frightens me mainly is things that are only tangentally related to what I find here. Try the term I invented when I was at the UN --benign genocide. This is small potatoes in comparison. I am also frightened by nuclear proliferation.

I will have to read further to see if similarly nice things have been said, though I doubt if anyone really wants to read much of what I have to say. I am clearly in an enemy camp from all I can gather. I doubt many of you know me well enough but I must publicly thank one of your number who sent me a very nice and civil pm. Most of the people I actually get to know do not find me either terrible, mendacious or without a modicum of courage.

My main time though is spent helping us make the transition so that not even the most vigilant accuser here will find a scintilla of anything they can tar with the usual accusations. In a year we will be gone from here I would bet.

Cheers, S

esto

September 19th, 2005, 06:56 PM

esto

September 19th, 2005, 07:00 PM

Honestly folks I started this to find one answer which I got and to state my opinion about uses of anonymity and YMMSS members essentially violating copyright by ripping off people's writings without permission. I come back a few days later and folks have posted tons. I am going back to work now. I will come back in a day or so and see what gives,. But as far as I am concerned the thread has served its purpose. I answered questions here for an extended period in another thread and I hope I convinced a few, but the general hostility seems not to have changed. Best, S

Dreamer

September 19th, 2005, 07:21 PM

Esto,

I know you like the law when it suits you, but you have no problem breaking the law regarding running an illegial ponzi. You may try to argue symentics, however, unfortunately, I do not think that you put much thought beind ur arguments especially when there is no satisfactory arguments against what we make here. But, if you want to talk copyright laws, here is a few things to consider.

MW is a public forum, and the mods cannot be held responsible for the posting of the members. However, I'm sure they will be happy to edit any posts that you bring to their attention that severly violates copyright laws.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch

How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.

surfer

September 19th, 2005, 08:09 PM

Leonidas writes and I reply with >>>>:

Originally Posted by Leonidas

1. If the 90 million that is claimed to have cycled is actually the same as being paid out since it is claimed that real money was used, then how can taxes not be paid on this "real" money?

>>>> Real money would be the 1099s sent at least to US members as required. I paid taxes on every penny and I assume other affiliates did. Who else would pay them but members. The money I got was real. I still have some of it and continue to earn it. And expect to earn more.

2. If an EPC is an actual product with a real value of $10 then why are there no refunds? Seems to me that if you have never cycled and never used your EPC's for advertising you have gained no service from YMMSS and therefore should be able to return your EPC. If they are actually worth something, then why wouldn't Kim be happy to take them back and refund members money??

>>>> Interesting. The no refund clause is clearly stated in the terms that members accept when they join. There is no obligation to refund because the product is not defective. Ah but if you do not use them ... Well it turns out that as Kim said EPCs have increasing value. We already have retail advertisers lined up and will naturally have many more when the retail site launches. But anyone who does not want to use their EPCs would be a fook not to hold on to them There is nothing that says you have to use them in a particular time. As soon as the retail market grows as we hope EPCs will have at least their purchase value and possibly much more. As to people wanting to sell their EPC positions, some like myself have obliged but there are limits and now the door has been closed on such transactions because the change is very close indeed.

Sorry to get to these late. Even sorrier to read the nice ad hominems your good members have posted about my dilatory self. Cheers, S

There you go Leonidas.

Typical non-answer for #1. Esto knows
exactly what you mean, yet chooses to
answer evasively.

As for #2, there is no denying that a no
refund statement has always been there.

That's a reason why I wouldn't even call
it a refund. I view it as payment for
services rendered. By dutifully performing
your ad reading task, Kim Inman and YMMSS/
Success Through Advertising were supposed
to pay you double whatever you spent
within 60-90 days.

As cycle times close in on 4X the maximum
"goal", it is obvious that while EPCs may
merely be way overpriced, the opportunity
is certainly defective.

Watchdog's words were the best advice.

Those who have been wronged need to take
action by filing grievances with all the agencies
available (http://www.matrixwatch.org/modules.php?name=Content&file=viewarticle&id=10). For some, it might even be worth
it to contact the Ministry of Justice in Belize (http://www.belize.gov.bz/cabinet/g_smith/welcome.shtml)
to find out who would need to be contacted
there.

mechanic

September 19th, 2005, 09:04 PM

I wouldn't count on an answer. Esto has been avoiding my 2 questions for a month now. I have them posted in 3 different thread. So here is #4 Esto.

1. If the 90 million that is claimed to have cycled is actually the same as being paid out since it is claimed that real money was used, then how can taxes not be paid on this "real" money?

2. If an EPC is an actual product with a real value of $10 then why are there no refunds? Seems to me that if you have never cycled and never used your EPC's for advertising you have gained no service from YMMSS and therefore should be able to return your EPC. If they are actually worth something, then why wouldn't Kim be happy to take them back and refund members money??

L
That is strange about the EPC,when I recieved my total and complete refund,even down to the regestration fee,I had no EPC whatever,I had benefactored all of them away.In other words they did not buy back the EPC,So just what is value of them in reality,well aparently they consider them to be worthless also.As for as advertisers are standing in line to advertise,do they honestly think that everyone fell off the turnip truck at the same time?That should make world news tonight as the biggest joke of the century.

Layton

AvidA

September 19th, 2005, 10:36 PM

Dear Esto,
If you could stop mentally masturbating with your big giant words meant to throw us off or be impressive, then you may take the time to see that once again, you did NOT answer Leonidas first question. You talked about YOUR money. Well, I am sure an upstanding person like yourself pays taxes but that's NOT what he asked.

I have had an overwhelming sufficiency of you. Anymore nonsense would be a redundancy. My gastronomical sotiety admonishes me that I have reached the utmost degletition consistent with my entity.

[B]Now...ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

AvidA

September 19th, 2005, 10:37 PM

HERE IT IS AGAIN WITH YOUR ELUSIVE ANSWER JUST IN CASE YOU HAVE TROUBLE ANSWERING IT AGAIN.

1. If the 90 million that is claimed to have cycled is actually the same as being paid out since it is claimed that real money was used, then how can taxes not be paid on this "real" money?

>>>> Real money would be the 1099s sent at least to US members as required. I paid taxes on every penny and I assume other affiliates did. Who else would pay them but members. The money I got was real. I still have some of it and continue to earn it. And expect to earn more

bowmaker

September 20th, 2005, 12:13 PM

oh no i got banned from the ym forums lol

funny i havent even posted over there for a few days , oh i see . i talked the truth about jim hakim over here . i guess thats what did it . i wouldnt know tho because unlike anyone else thats ever been banned the mighty esto never gave me warning or an email stating reason for banishment.

oh well , i still have about 4 other sources to access the ym forums , think i'll head on over and see if theres any good post in the office today.

brenda

September 20th, 2005, 12:23 PM

bowmaker

September 20th, 2005, 12:51 PM

are they stupid or crazy? do they actually think that by banning someone they can keep them out of the forums. i can also think of myriads of ways to get into the forum at YM and post. Excuse me, Bowmaker, when did you realize you were banned?

this morning,
also i cant get into my back office. it says access denied . dont know if its a glitch or if ive been kicked out of ymmss . like i said i havent received any email or anything .

but legal steps have already been taken to get my money , ive been working on that for a while , i just put them on hold because i wanted to stick around to see the first payout from the new system . but about 20 minutes ago i went forward with it .

gmsource

September 20th, 2005, 01:16 PM

surfer

September 20th, 2005, 01:38 PM

this morning,
also i cant get into my back office. it says access denied . dont know if its a glitch or if ive been kicked out of ymmss . like i said i havent received any email or anything .

but legal steps have already been taken to get my money , ive been working on that for a while , i just put them on hold because i wanted to stick around to see the first payout from the new system . but about 20 minutes ago i went forward with it .

Isn't it great that Kim Inman and YMMSS-
Success Through Advertising can just steal
your money like that without true proof that
it's even you posting here bowmaker?

Just like Esto claiming that I had posted in
some Indonesian forum. lol lol lol And the
person who used the moniker "surfer" that
posted on Ronny's YMMSS forums.

I must really thank Esto for starting this
thread. It has worked out pretty well.

Keep attempting to intimidate Esto. And
please continue to ostracize disgruntled
"negative" affiliates at the YMForums.

You are rapidly becoming a great ally to
the Matrix Watch cause.

AvidA

September 20th, 2005, 02:30 PM

Bowmaker, I think they're trying to torment you and punish you. I just logged in earlier and I was fine. I don't think there are any "glitches" or we all would have been notified.

AvidA

September 20th, 2005, 02:33 PM

Dear Mister Esto, We here at Matrix Watch feel that since we are having a Halloween avatar motif that you should have one as well and it should be an evil mister potato head. :)

bowmaker

September 20th, 2005, 02:43 PM

I wish I could get my money back. Are you at liberty to say what legal steps (pm me if you wish)?. If I had known someone was going to go the legal route, it would be nice to maybe do like a class action lawsuit. I would do that if it was an affordable option, but I'm only out $400.

sorry but no im not at liberty to say . nothing against you personally , but ymmss spies come here and you could be one of them . im not even out as much as $400 . im only out $160 . and thats not even all spends by me . big c at ymmss had a contest which i won for $20 which i had to purchase an epc with and show proof that i did . i knew what ymmss was before i started i tried telling my parents . they kept trying to get me to join they said they would buy my first epc and pay my membership . i agree'd because i wanted the inside info. so im actually out less than $100 .

surfer,
your post are always much appreciated . i never really shared my research and experiences with matrix watch as i didnt want to get banned yet . but within the last several days in pm ive told people i could care less anymore , and in this very thread i actually invited esto to ban me . NOW , i am totally behind matrix watch and will help its cause . and i have the means to do so as far as ymmss is concerned.

surfer

September 20th, 2005, 03:19 PM

Thanks bowmaker.

You are right in that the game works both
ways.

While Esto makes accusations against me,
there is a strong likelihood that some of
the YMMSS faithful are working undercover
here, not the obvious ones like Avenging
Angel and Mat_Watcher. AA was merely
a high strung faith based supporter and for
some reason I continue to appreciate MW's
much more reasonable debating efforts. Of
course, he hasn't really posted much lately.
Just cruises in reading things over.

Hi Mat_Watcher. :D

I know you invited the banning from their
forums. ;) But it would be very simple for
anyone of us "evil", "negative" people to
register here at Matrix Watch using the
forum names of some of the YMForum
members who have displayed less than
positive feelings about how things are
turning out. Just as some have used
the same username as I have.

I guess if someone did that, then YMMSS
would ban those people as well. All while
having no real proof of any wrong doing on
their part.

A quote from Lord Acton seems to fit here.
""power corrupts, and absolute power
corrupts absolutely"

I'm_not_esto

September 20th, 2005, 04:02 PM

Hi Folks,
I'm glad to say that I'm here at Matrix Watch....and I'm_not_esto !!!

Kim_Who

September 20th, 2005, 04:33 PM

Hello Folks,
Who is this "Kim" guy everybody is talking about?? I've never heard of him before. Is he somebody special like God or something???

mercinary

September 20th, 2005, 04:55 PM

ROFL. This is just getting hilarious.

-Merc

MatrixWatch

September 20th, 2005, 06:43 PM

Regaring class-action lawsuits. I'm not a lawyer, so please verify anything I say with your attorney, and take it all with a grain of salt.

I have heard that the judges of a class action will usually award a "class-incentive" award to the first person who filed the suit. That's right. A perk for being the lead plaintiff, and it has been reported to sometimes be in the tens of thousands. It is a dollar sum that is awarded to the lead plaintiff IN ADDITION to anything they get as a result of the class action.

Now, lawyers and judges will tell you that you aren't supposed to file a class-action with the motive of getting the class-incentive award, but it is no doubt awarded as a way to encourage a first plaintiff to step forward.

esto

September 20th, 2005, 07:04 PM

I hope not everyone who reads here is laughing. I am watching an immature display that really diminishes my respect for whatever serious or honest purpose you have.

Your desecration of my picture is childish and exemplary. The willingness of apparent (surviving) leaders here to participate in the low level activity is depressing.

I hope if anyone files a suit you make available every post that has been published here having to do with our business. I suspect a judge would not laugh with you.

The true victims here probably do not know they are victims. They are victims of patterns of unconsciousness that get exacerbated when people gather together and act as a group.

I have dealt with this in one of my books. I do not think I will tell you which one as you apparently have people here with nothing better to do than carry on various forms of humorous activity. You'll figure it out. Maybe even read it.

Best, S

Dreamer

September 20th, 2005, 07:41 PM

Just remember, when you file against kimmy, also file against lil esto. Hes even more guilty of conning people becaue he does it on a daily basis.

surfer

September 20th, 2005, 07:47 PM

I hope not everyone who reads here is laughing. I am watching an immature display that really diminishes my respect for whatever serious or honest purpose you have.
Sorry, but I did chuckle just a bit.
Your desecration of my picture is childish and exemplary. The willingness of apparent (surviving) leaders here to participate in the low level activity is depressing.
Other than Merc finding it hilarious, I
didn't see any leaders "participate" in
any low level activity.

I've already stated that such activity
doesn't help, funny or not. ;)
I hope if anyone files a suit you make available every post that has been published here having to do with our business. I suspect a judge would not laugh with you.
I'm sure every post here will remain intact.

Let me ask you now if the same can be
said of the YMForums? Oh, that's right,
they routinely "clean up" there to eliminate
evidence.
The true victims here probably do not know they are victims. They are victims of patterns of unconsciousness that get exacerbated when people gather together and act as a group.
Not unlike the pack mentality of beating on
disgruntled affiliates at the YMForums, eh?

The most vicious statements come from
your own misled crowd Esto. Kim Inman
must have hurt some pretty bad to cause
them to react that way.
I have dealt with this in one of my books. I do not think I will tell you which one as you apparently have people here with nothing better to do than carry on various forms of humorous activity. You'll figure it out. Maybe even read it.
Shucks. And we could have put you on
the best seller list. C'mon, please.....
Was it Coping With a Negative World
in a Positive Way (http://www.biblio.com/search.php?author=stephen+c.+rose&title=coping+with&keyisbn=&x=0&y=0&stage=1) Is that you?

I am more than happy to continue
focusing on the many deceptions
you and your leader have spread,
lies which now include deceiving
potential ad clients about how much
money Success Through Advertising
has actually paid out to their affiliates.

Excellent tactic attempting to hide
the truth by starting a blog drive
before leading your pupils towards
eliminating the use of the YMMSS
name, BTW. A great preemptive
strike in the SEs.

Arzel

September 20th, 2005, 08:23 PM

Golly I leave for a while and do not have the benefit of these pleasant ad hominems. Give an old fella a break per favor. What frightens me mainly is things that are only tangentally related to what I find here. Try the term I invented when I was at the UN --benign genocide. This is small potatoes in comparison. I am also frightened by nuclear proliferation.

I will have to read further to see if similarly nice things have been said, though I doubt if anyone really wants to read much of what I have to say. I am clearly in an enemy camp from all I can gather. I doubt many of you know me well enough but I must publicly thank one of your number who sent me a very nice and civil pm. Most of the people I actually get to know do not find me either terrible, mendacious or without a modicum of courage.

My main time though is spent helping us make the transition so that not even the most vigilant accuser here will find a scintilla of anything they can tar with the usual accusations. In a year we will be gone from here I would bet.

Cheers, S

How can you take credit for conjuction of two words? In any case I don't see how this has anything to do with a benificial killing of a race or nation. Additionally your application of Benign Genocide does not really correspond with your writings (which appear to be the only real occurances of this term).

Perhaps you should call it Benicide, the benificial destruction of people. Oops now it is my term as I just invented it.

Or in the case of YMMSS, Bencorpalcide, the benificial destruction of a corporation or related types of businesses (such as the matrix model).

I'm_not_esto

September 20th, 2005, 08:28 PM

I have dealt with this in one of my books. I do not think I will tell you which one as you apparently have people here with nothing better to do than carry on various forms of humorous activity. You'll figure it out. Maybe even read it.

Best, S

:eek: Wow!! I almost thought this was a YMMSS Ad Forum posting until I looked at the address box in my browser. Whew!!! I thought Kim scammed another $10.00 off of some one. :eek:
One thing esto does have right is that I don't have anything better to do at the moment than to make people laugh. :D (Meanwhile, there are others laughing all the way to the Bank of Belize) :mad: . I'm on vacation from my real job...you know, the one that pays me in real money and not broken promises. The one that doesn't promise me pie in the sky just to leave me high and dry. The one that WON'T change their business model because the one they created was flawed in the first place. The one that pays me a weekly income that I can fold and not jingle.
I'm_not_esto...I'm the Frito Bandito!!! :D

AvidA

September 20th, 2005, 08:58 PM

lol lol lol lol I am more than chuckling at Esto-Bandito.

Isn't benign genocide an oxy-moron? Anyway, I am a good friend of Esto's and I can tell you that the book he wrote was entitled "Why Bad Things Must Happen to Good People." lol lol lol lol

Dreamer

September 20th, 2005, 09:20 PM

If anybody is interested in more of Esto's lies, goto: http://www.epinions.com/content_195059289732

he did a friggen epinion about his stupid scam site.

Gringo

September 21st, 2005, 01:25 AM

Golly I leave for a while and do not have the benefit of these pleasant ad hominems. Even sorrier to read the nice ad hominems your good members have posted about my dilatory self. One of the first rules of using big words is knowing what they mean. I've called you on "ad hominems" before, and appearantly you ignored it and still like to through around latin terms without understanding their meaning. Not only does it make you look pompus, but foolish as well.
Ah but if you do not use them ... Well it turns out that as Kim said EPCs have increasing value. That must be news to the people that have been selling their $10 EPCS for under 10 cents on the YM auction site.
As soon as the retail market grows as we hope EPCs will have at least their purchase value and possibly much more. Just as you hoped to double everyones money every 60 - 90 days? They are victims of patterns of unconsciousness that get exacerbated when people gather together and act as a group. Perfect description of the YMMSS sheep!

AvidA

September 21st, 2005, 05:05 AM

Whoa Gringo! You're scaring me! it's like you read my mind. I was just talking to a friend about 2 hours ago and the exact analogy I used for the Ymforums cheerleaders were that they reminded me of sheep. You can't ask a concerned, intelligent question without being told you violated TOU. Not what about the TOU just the TOU. yet Esto here and others can call people stupid and try and start fist fights (as if) just because of a question that is asked in concern...I think these people would/will go off of a cliff for the mighty Shepherd Kim if they're asked.

Imagine being at a board meeting of a large business such as STA *snicker* and the CEO comes in and everyone says "hip hip hooray, boss! There's nothing to discuss. We don't need to know what you're going to pay us..we trust you! Even though you've never kept your word on anything and we're not being paid now...we just love you so much! This meeting is adjourned". Can you imagine how long that "business" would last? A board meeting, or a forum in this case, is meant to discuss things. Not shuffle them under the rug because they may seem less than lovely. How will anything get done with STA when no one with any intelligence is allowed a voice. Esto is the voice there and we all know he's nothing more than a mental masturbater. That doesn't make him smart. You're right about that as well, Gringo. He sounds like a fool.

bilim

September 21st, 2005, 05:42 AM

Stephen Rose, Lemme get this right. You're worried about guys wanting to be anonymous while YMMSS has a deal with metropipe?

Gringo

September 21st, 2005, 11:29 AM

Stephen Rose, Lemme get this right. You're worried about guys wanting to be anonymous while YMMSS has a deal with metropipe?
Another good point. Again Stephen:
1. What in the YM forum is so secret that you object to it being quoted here?
2. Why do you have a problem with hiding and being anonymous when Kim set up the company offshore in the attempt to protect it from U.S. regulators?
3. Why do you not have a problem with YM members including your mod Alan coming here anonymously and posting?
4. If you ban members that come here and post comments, don't you think they have reason to want to change their name here and be anonymous?

bowmaker

September 21st, 2005, 12:20 PM

people ( ym cheerleaders ) get offended by us " negative " posters because they cannot think for themselves. kim is followed over there just like jim jones was . and by the time its all over they are going to wish that they did have poison in there koolaid.

bowmaker

September 21st, 2005, 12:39 PM

we already know that kim is lying to the retail advertisers about commissions paid and how many affiliates are being paid . theres around 10,000 people who have never been paid . and not only that the affiliates ads get removed all the time . i know someone that advertised an ebook about sports in the gold forum . it was up for about 2 hours and got removed because it was advertised in the sports section and not the ebook section and the person has never been given back there epc's so that they could advertise it in the proper place.

AvidA

September 21st, 2005, 01:37 PM

It's all about greed. Just watch the YMforums....those people are giddy with excitement on getting rich based on their own imaginations. It's sickening. And that's one more reason why you can't be productive there. One sensible comment and you pop their proverbial "giggle bubble". And that is just NOT ALLOWED! They pick and choose who they want to delete...it hardly ever has anything to do with TOU.

Leonidas

September 21st, 2005, 02:29 PM

Esto....my question is not about actual money paid to affiliates, that is only a small % of the claimed 100 Million now. My question refers to the pre tax dollars used to repurchase "advertising", how is that legal exactly? I can't go down to my local advertising agency and buy ads with pre tax money can I? Absolutely not. So how does Kim's army of lawyers think it is legal?

As for the refund, the terms may say no refunds now, but when I joined there was a money back guarantee! Just like the selling of positions was allowed up until last week, and now it is not. Funny how it was ok for you and others to do it though. I guess Kim can change the rules anytime as long as it is a benefit to him. The reason the door has now been shut is simple. There are to many people trying to get out! But I will agree with you that it might have something to do with the new system coming into place as well. Can you imagine the number of people wanting to sell their positions when the 320's are worth pennies on the dollar??? :eek:

I personally have an issue with this because I am on cross's downline and if he would have been allowed to sell his business I was going to get my money back, along with 6 others. Thanks KIM! :head:

L

BTCohen

September 21st, 2005, 03:46 PM

I'm afraid I agree with the 'real' Esto.

This thread is making this foum look silly. There are some strong arguements around here and I recognise some of you are just having some fun but it isn't fitting with the MO of this website to publicly mock people. Esto is no spring chicken and is well respected, globally and has made some amazing contributions to the welfare of people and especially children all over the world. He may be an avid follower of Ymmss and internet biz-opps in general but he doesn't have the heart to be a conman. No chance.

And I am not Kim, okay. ;-)

I'm_not_esto

September 21st, 2005, 05:00 PM

I'm afraid I agree with the 'real' Esto.

Esto is no spring chicken and is well respected, globally and has made some amazing contributions to the welfare of people and especially children all over the world.

Well, he ain't no Mr. Rogers and I doubt he's well respected around here. Just my humble opinion. Cheers, not_S

Gringo

September 21st, 2005, 07:08 PM

He may be an avid follower of Ymmss and internet biz-opps in general but he doesn't have the heart to be a conman. Then he is the conmans puppet. Like the thousands of other sheep that are being manipulated by Kim, he is obediantly following the shepherd. Look at some of his answers here. They are clearly designed to obscure and avoid the truth, to rationalize away the lies and deception from this leader.

AvidA

September 21st, 2005, 08:30 PM

Then he is the conmans puppet. Like the thousands of other sheep that are being manipulated by Kim, he is obediantly following the shepherd. Look at some of his answers here. They are clearly designed to obscure and avoid the truth, to rationalize away the lies and deception from this leader.

Exactly! And the world does NOT respect him, BT. You always have fascinated me with your viewpoints. There have been times that I thought you were him.

Bottom line is that I don't give a damn what he did for any children when I am quite sure that he did/would steal from their parents with these biz-opps. He's a dirty player and how you can argue that is beyond me. Something's funny about you..I think you're related somehow. IMO

Dreamer

September 22nd, 2005, 01:21 PM

If he was well loved and respected around the world, and his best friend was mr rogers and they changed shoes together all the time, he sickens me more. Could u imagine a person like princess di, who did do alot for people and was well loved, to support a con and start lying and scamming people just to make more money herself?

I really dont give a crap if esto is just so damn stupid that he thinks its a legit business. He has never satisfactory answered any of our questions regarding how come it has ponzi aspects.

He is either a bitter old man who has resorted to scamming people to make an extra buck, or a silly old fool. Pick your choice.

And I do apoligies to esto for this personal attack against his character, but i really hate scammers.

BTCohen

September 22nd, 2005, 03:32 PM

AvidA

September 22nd, 2005, 07:27 PM

concreteman

September 22nd, 2005, 09:54 PM

Avida and Dreamer, you guy's have issues and should seek medical attention.

I thought this forum was a freethinking forum.

But I am finding that just like you say about the YM Forum, Matrixwatch users really go crazy when you dont agree with them.

Your anger is evident and has unhinged you.

For the last time, I'm not Esto or Kim. What is it with you guy's? Because I wont give dog's abuse to people I get bawled out?

Come on, are we not better than this? This forum is a Matrixwatch. WE are here to discuss these various business models. I am into YM and IT4Us and discuss them without going OTT on individuals. Do I have to be like you all the time and like the things you like.

Dont think so. Love me or loathe me, I am what I am. I'll discuss business all day, but I am entitled to an opinion when I see someone getting talked about and I think people are getting it wrong.
I cant beleive you guys are actually calling it a business, r you kidding me? a business has real solutions to problems, they pay there people irregardless of the finacial strain. they dont hide secrets they dont make promises, they dont intend on keeping. :nono: what really drives us crazy is the people who keep defending a con man or person that has, i beleive knowingly cheated people. I live in indiana i have heard the stories of people investing and losing it all because of the lies of the people that you have such high regard for :bow: just doing some free thinking. :D

concreteman

September 22nd, 2005, 10:12 PM

I run a real business, you know the kind we actually pay our people, sometimes we even lose money on jobs that we take, but we damn sure dont ask our employees to take a paycut. please quit referring to YMMSS as a business it is insulting to the ones that know what it takes to run a real business. :head: You know sacrifice, hard work, real deadlines, payroll, honesty, long nights, early mornings, sore backs, calassed hands. thats what alot of the people did for years & then some slick talking jackass conned them out of there money.

Dreamer

September 23rd, 2005, 08:20 AM

I need help cuz i dont support a conman? Well, if u've read any of my posts since I found MW, I will clue u in my feelings.

Level 1 conmen - Greg and kimmy. Scumbags. Lying bastards, etc. Horrible People.

Level 2 conmen - SigX and lil esto. Worse than scumbags, because the con continues because of these diehard supporters. They make it sound like its a legimitate business.

Look what SigX did. Once he started seeing Greg for who he was he stopped supporting the site. Is he pro- anti or matrix nuetral? I dunno. I could care less. He stepped up and stopped supporting a site that was not fullfilling its end of the deal.

YMMSS stopped fullfilling its end of the bargen when it decided to steal all the money in the pot and change to a profit sharing system. $90million was in there that could have been doubled and withdrawn. But, he just stole all of that money by refusing to give people a chance go convert to the new system or keep the old system.

But esto is still supporting the conman.

I dont care if you agree or disagree with me. Its my opinion. And I value your opinion also, even if it goes against what I think. But, I dont think I will ever change that the people who knowlingly support and recruit for scams are worse than those who start the scams.

Now, if you part of ymmss and are trying to bring people into it, maybe you just dont know the truth, so I dont put u in that category. Maybe i'm wrong, but the next 12 months will show who is right and who is wrong. Unfortunately, our opinions on MW has been pretty accurate.

BTCohen

September 23rd, 2005, 01:16 PM

You are absolutely right that you have a right to your opinion just as we have to ours. And I apologize wholeheartedly if you thought I was posting angrily toward you. I really, really wasn't. I was just feeling incredulous at the time I wrote it. I was actually thinking that for such a seemingly nice and peaceable guy your views lean more towards the people who are stealing from other people. That boggles me.

And the way you write, with the exception of a few misspelled words could be Esto's writings. So, I suggested you were related.

I am not angry...I promise. But I still say you're Esto or someone from the Ymforums cheerleading squad. I believe this--it is, as you said MY opinion.

Of all the hurtful things to say you have to accuse me of misspelling words. I am deeply upset that you could suggest such a thing. :-(

Now I will be watching your spelling like a hawk. :-)

Remember, English is not my native language. I learned English the English way, not the bastardised American way, if you'll excuse the expression. Where colour becomes color and Z (Zed) becomes Z (Zee)

But I forgive you.

And for the last time. I AM NOT ESTO, or his relative, unless you want to trace back to Noah or even Adam. I am not anyone but me.

As I said before, because I call things as I see them I get things said about me.

Also, Concreteman said this

what really drives us crazy is the people who keep defending a con man or person that has, i beleive knowingly cheated people. I live in indiana i have heard the stories of people investing and losing it all because of the lies of the people that you have such high regard for just doing some free thinking.

What is free thinking? Jumping on the bandwagon and attacking the character of individuals. It's not my thing okay.

What purpose does it serve anyway? Does it make you feel better? Go right ahead. It doesn't make me feel better.

I see a lot of posts about freethinking and yet I am hassled because I speak my mind.

Some freethinking that is?

bowmaker

September 23rd, 2005, 01:42 PM

I see a lot of posts about freethinking and yet I am hassled because I speak my mind.

Some freethinking that is?

you have freethinking here . your post and thoughts are allowed to reamain are they not . have you had any post deleted yet ? just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean you dont ge to post FREELY .

all the talk about freethinking as far as ymmss is concerned is because if you speak freely over there and they disagree they delete you . even though you paid money to be able to post there in the first place.

BTCohen

September 23rd, 2005, 02:26 PM

Bowmaker I get your point. My point is that some folk seem to get a bit excited if I dont follow the pattern of "We hate YM and all it's mods."

I'm just not into that.

Thanks for your post anyway.

concreteman

September 23rd, 2005, 02:55 PM

[QUOTE=BTCohen]

Remember, English is not my native language. I learned English the English way, not the bastardised American way, if you'll excuse the expression. Where colour becomes color and Z (Zed) becomes Z (Zee)

WOW, not really to sure what to say about that. And just because I happen to agree with someone, does not make a bandwagon. I don't do bandwagons, I geuss if you havent noticed most of the people feel the exact same way. :crazy: And just in case you are wondering i do have respect for your opinion, no matter how wrong you are. ( my opinion) :bow:

MooMoo

September 23rd, 2005, 03:00 PM

Remember, English is not my native language. I learned English the English way, not the bastardised American way, if you'll excuse the expression. Where colour becomes color and Z (Zed) becomes Z (Zee)

Actually, that strictly isnt true. The American way of spelling is how the English USED to spell - but the English changed the way they spelt things when the Puritans had a little spat with the Catholics (remember Guy Fawkes anyone?!) However, the Americans didnt have these worries, and so kept on with the Old English way of spelling.

For this and many other history articles, see the Discuss History forum at www.discusshistory.com, ran by a friend of mine.

concreteman

September 23rd, 2005, 03:05 PM

And dreamer that is one messed up Avatar lol lol lol lol lol

AvidA

September 23rd, 2005, 04:51 PM

BT,
I can follow you when colour becomes color or program becomes programme...or humour becomes humor or vice versa...but Zed? Only a Canuck would say that! ;-)

Now I'm going to be paranoid of my spelling! Great! lol

AvidA

September 23rd, 2005, 05:01 PM

By the way, BTCohen, what are you doing in the MatrixWatch forum? Are you just here to learn? I mean no offense to you but you seem to feel victimized here and it's not that clear whether you're pro-YM (although you are more so than anyone else) or whether you're not. So, why are you here?

brenda

September 23rd, 2005, 07:08 PM

actually the Puritans were non other than the Waldenses. and BTCohen, it appears that you are a spy :) i said "appears".

remnant

September 24th, 2005, 07:15 AM

I cant beleive you guys are actually calling it a business, r you kidding me? a business has real solutions to problems, they pay there people irregardless of the finacial strain. they dont hide secrets they dont make promises, they dont intend on keeping. :nono: what really drives us crazy is the people who keep defending a con man or person that has, i beleive knowingly cheated people. I live in indiana i have heard the stories of people investing and losing it all because of the lies of the people that you have such high regard for :bow: just doing some free thinking. :D

Business: The occupation, work, or trade in which a person is engaged.

Most onine scams are classed as businesses, even if they be illegitimate businesses. I don't know much about YMMSS but from what I have read it reminds me of a pyramid-type scheme that is running in the UK, and was recruiting in the London area a couple months back. I'll try and dig up the web address and you guys can take a look. £1,500 GBP sign up fee :( ($2,662.88 USD), and it aint a small scheme.

BTCohen

September 24th, 2005, 10:37 AM

Firstly

Moo Moo, if you were to engage in conversation with a 17th century Puritan, you would have great difficulty in communicating with each other, due to dialects, pronunciations and spelling. Anyway, I am not a 17th century puritan and have a desire to communicate in modern english ;-)

Avida, I am here because I am entitled to be here. Do you have the right to ask me why I'm here? I have money in IT4US and YMMSS. They are being discussed here and I want to discuss them. Why are YOU here?

Brenda , your opinion is I am a spy. My opinion is you are a bit blue faced and need to go steady on the eye shadow.

I thought we were on the same side.

AvidA

September 24th, 2005, 01:15 PM

Firstly

Avida, I am here because I am entitled to be here. Do you have the right to ask me why I'm here? I have money in IT4US and YMMSS. They are being discussed here and I want to discuss them. Why are YOU here?

Brenda , your opinion is I am a spy. My opinion is you are a bit blue faced and need to go steady on the eye shadow.

I thought we were on the same side.

Why yes, BT! I have the right to ask you why you're here and I did! :) Thank you for your answer. ;)

Why would you think you and Brenda are on the same side? Because you're both Jews? Get outta town! lol That's like me siding with the IRA just because they're Irish. I think not.

AvidA

September 24th, 2005, 01:22 PM

Oops...not to neglect you, BT. About why I am here: Because I live in the United States of America- the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. A country where people do the backstroke just to try and get in...everyday. And because of this country, I am entitled to specialties that other countries are not allowed. One of them is freedom of speech, another is freedom of expression..

Long story short...I am here because it's my right to choose a forum where answers are mathematically and unbiasedly given. I freely choose this forum.

I figured since you were begining to sound so much like a dictator that I would give you the politcal version. :)

BTCohen

September 24th, 2005, 02:45 PM

Because I live in the United States of America- the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world.

Wealthiest? Now your showing your ignorance. Do you know what a deficit is? Last year the US budget deficit was a whopping $681 BILLION. The US may have the largest economy, but that is purely national turnover, not showing a profit as it were.

Plus, that type of arrogance just annoys people. You have lots of folk waiting for entry into the US. To go where? Live in one of the large city ghetto's with the rats.

GROW UP. America has a lot of great people but the whole system is in a mess and this is eveident to anyone who is willing to have a look at the facts.

I liked you better when you had your smilie avatar. Do you really think that when I was saying to Brenda, 'we were on the same side' that I was referring to being Jewish. Get real. I was talking about our affiliation against scammers and matrix/ponzi type bizz-opps. Also, I never ever claimed to be Jewish. Some of YOU assumed I was because of my name. I said I was an adopted hebrew. (Okay, Im splitting hairs)

Also, how do you make out Im a dictator? Because I kick back when folk make comments about me?

I sincerely hope your comments are removed. They are out of order.

AvidA

September 24th, 2005, 04:33 PM

Firstly, you're out of order calling me "ignorant". Clearly you're Canadian. Only the Canadians are this jealous of the US of A. Everyone else is trying to get IN to the country. Why do you think there is trouble at our borders with the minute men and all that's going on there? Why do you think we ARE such a melting pot where people have defected from their own countries and, as I stated before, do the backstroke from Cuba and Mexico to get here. The middle east is not the first place to try and bring down this Mighty Giant. God blessed the USA and that pisses you off! Too bad!

You don't know anything about our deficit. No one really has the stats on that and even still we are far from being an impoverished country. Oh contrare...and unlike Canada we're not socialist which is just two steps from communism. Controlled by a Monarchy. Queen my ***! lol

I understood you clearly when you said you were an adopted Hebrew. But if you were adopted by a Jewish mother, then by Jewish law you ARE a Jew. Why else would you really think that Brenda would be on your side? Why? Haven't you been reading her posts or are you ignorant? Apparently you are as I asked you very politely why you were here and you came back not only in bold print but italicized and underlined IN CAPS...demanding to know what I was doing here. If you can think for yourself at all...read my posts. They are self explanatory as to how I feel and why I am here. :rolleyes:

Dreamer

September 24th, 2005, 05:13 PM

Some of YOU assumed I was because of my name

I assumed that you were pretending to be the founder of BitTorrent..

Dreamer

September 24th, 2005, 05:16 PM

But, for the most part, these last posts have nothing to do with hiding behind anonymity, and not only are they childish, but they are also mean spirited. So, can we please drop these issues? There are alot of different people on this forum, I dont want people to leave cuz of some childish arguments.

MooMoo

September 24th, 2005, 05:21 PM

Avida:

Please stop being abusive about other countries and their customs. It is not nice, and gives a bad impression of yourself.

If you look at many statistics you will see that the USA general budget has for many years been getting worse; this started back in the 1970's when the dollar was detached from gold. After the detachment, paper money was printed in more and more amounts, to the point of almost-saturation of the market. This is why the dollar has gone down in value in recent years compared to the UK pound.

The American budget is well-known to people, as by law it has to be disclosed to the Senate and to the general public - this information can easily be found if you know where to look. By examing the data over the past 20 years you will see that the deficit is rather higher than one would like, and that the 'fluid cash' (available spare cash) in the budget has shrunk considerably. This can be seen by the response to Hurricane Katrina, whereby emergency services were not provided the money they needed from the government to operate in an ideal manner.

Your comment about Socialists running Canada was extremely offensive. They are your neigbours, and you should try and be more thoughtful towards your fellow Americans. I am unsure of how you manage to link Socialism with a royal leader (?!) but this does not help considering that there are many other countries in the world that also have royal family.

I am sure that Arzel and/or Ychen can do statistics far better than I, so I may be a little 'off' here.

I am not wanting to 'have a go', but just felt I had to try and explain a few things that were burning a hole in my head!! :)

AvidA

September 24th, 2005, 05:32 PM

MooMoo, I don't know you but why are you addressing ME? You must be anti-USA as well or maybe you just missed the fact that BTCohen started putting MY country down first. I only stated the obvious...that I was proud to be and thankful to be an American. HE is the one, MooMoo who started putting the US down the same as it appears you are trying to do as well. I love my country and I have rights here that I am thankful for. The freedom in this forum was one of the things I pointed out.

Back to topic.
BTW, I live near Canada and Americans and Canadians flow together nicely, but I am constantly reminded when I go to the casinos there how Americans are so clueless. I would like, just for once, a Canadian to "clue me in". It's never happened. I like my "neighbors" as you put it and have a few Canadian friends...but as you can probably tell I am really tired of them putting America down.

I'm_not_BTCohen

September 24th, 2005, 05:52 PM

I'm not Esto, I'm not Kim, and I'm_not_BTCohen. I'm just another YMMSS cheerleader ready to do more high-kicks for those 2 cent EPCs!!! :D :D :D

MooMoo

September 24th, 2005, 06:26 PM

MooMoo

September 24th, 2005, 06:30 PM

Personally, I don't understand how people can be anonymous when they own domains. I always thought that when you run a business you have to be transparent, and so supply information to people as and when requested. I do not understand how these companies such as 'Domains by Proxy' are able to trade successfully without breaking the law by being accessories to crimes......

weirdid

September 24th, 2005, 06:39 PM

I'm not sure how things work in the USA, but in the UK, a company must on request supply their registered address.
This info can also be found at:
http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/

avago181

September 24th, 2005, 07:03 PM

I seem to remember that esto started this thread, it looks like he has been successful in diverting attention away from YMMSS.

AvidA

September 24th, 2005, 07:13 PM

I may divert my attention for a minute but I don't think I can ever divert my attention away from YMMSS for too long. After all, they conned me outta thousands of dollars. I noticed that a lot of them read here behind the anonymity. As I had asked before..I wonder why that is? If they're so certain they're right and the business is so great then why come to this forum? Maybe the answer lies in the details. Anyway, I don't think a real business with a clear conscience would bother as they would see us as petty and just go on with their life.

BTCohen

September 24th, 2005, 07:15 PM

Avida you brought this up first.

I live in the United States of America- the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world. A country where people do the backstroke just to try and get in...everyday. And because of this country, I am entitled to specialties that other countries are not allowed. One of them is freedom of speech, another is freedom of expression..

All I said was that it was arrogant and you were ignorant of the facts. No insult intended.

Oh, and I'm not Canadian. Although I would be proud to be too. Great nation the Canadians. Weighed into the Nazi's before the Americans did. Oops, didn't mean to insult anyone there. I would be proud to be American too. G-d bless America.

O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

Call me a Citizen of Zion.

MooMoo

September 24th, 2005, 07:15 PM

I'm not sure how things work in the USA, but in the UK, a company must on request supply their registered address.
This info can also be found at:
http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/
This is very good if it is a registered company, but what about most matrix sites? I was specifically thinking of Offlinefones, Dogandbonezone, Matrixstacks and Split-Matrix, which I believe only advertised themselves on their respective websites as the domain name. I am not sure of the others, but I know that MatrixStacks were registered through Domains by Proxy, which I believe is based in Phoenix Arizona USA, and they have not responded to any emails.

I suppose it is a point of law....if a matrix site is operating illegally, do the domain registrars lay themselves open to criminal charges by being an accessory and supplying them with the means to commit crime?!

BTCohen

September 24th, 2005, 07:23 PM

In my experience of the UK situation - not every business has to register at Companies House. An individual can operate as a sole trader or two or more people can operate as a partnership without registration. However any individual or group who are in any kind of business while they are resident in the UK, must register with the Tax Office (Inland Revenue) within 3 months of start-up or face penalties. (A fine of about £300 - £1000 each I think)

MooMoo

September 24th, 2005, 08:19 PM

Somehow I don't think people who hide their identities behind proxy domain registrars will really care about registering with the Tax office! Does anyone know of anyway of 'getting' the personal data of matrix site owners who have used proxies? There surely must be ways and means......

weirdid

September 25th, 2005, 05:42 AM

Both BTcohen and MooMoo are correct, a limited company has to register with companies house.
When i was working as a sole trader, i had to register my trading name, but i cant remember the agency i had to register with, i guess a partnership would be the same.

A hosting company can hide behind the fact that they only host, they are like ebay, they dont check on the content of the site they host.

surfer

September 25th, 2005, 10:35 AM

I seem to remember that esto started this thread, it looks like he has been successful in diverting attention away from YMMSS.
Peope tend to divert themselves as a thread
ages. :)

But here's a reminder of what started this
thread.

Esto's original post:
I find some in Matrix Watch apparently hide behind anonymity.

For example one of your members is clearly also a member of YMMSS because he or she regularly violates our terms by copying their posts here without permission of their authors. I have consistently been subject to this violation.

Some have been quite candid about their dual membership but others are virtually invisible.

In one recent case a person with a username here Surfer -- who is clearly also a YM member or who has access to our members forums -- has also posted at various other forums. Including an Indonesian one.

We have no way of knowing if these Surfer names refer to the same person. But we do know he Surfer who is here is up to no good.

If we knew who he or she is he or she would be immediately banned from our member forums for consistent violation of our terms of use.

Maybe we live in a world where the capacity to know who we are dealing with is legitimately disguised because of the prevalence of evil. In that case we need at least to hold up the truth of their hiding.

Best, S

(Stephen Rose, NYC)

My first reply:
#1--It's surfer with a small "s" ;)

#2--I haven't posted in any Indonesian forums. lol
I post only here and infrequently at scam.com

#3--Why would any member in their right mind who
has been lied to and misled by Kim Inman want to
use their YMMSS-Success Through Advertising
username here?

If they are deemed too "negative" at the YMForums,
they are kicked out.

If they are deemed too "negative" in other forums,
they are kicked out.

Why let Kim Inman just steal their money for griping
about being lied to?

"up to no good" lol lol If exposing Kim Inman's
lies is no good, then I plead guilty. :bow:

How many people did I tell to give me $10/month
and they could retire in 3 years?

How many people did I recruit into illegal gifting
programs?

How many people did I guarantee 60-90 day cycle
times, "ensuring" them that I had special funds set
aside so that I would never have to break my
promise.

How many people did I lure into overextending
themselves financially using the lies I just listed?

How many husbands and wives, parents and
children, siblings, etc. are not speaking to each
other because of their involvement in my business?

How many spouses are hiding their involvement in
my business from their partners because they know
they wouldn't approve?

My answer: None.

Kim Inman's answer: the casualties are still climbing.
I guess the man has a few more lives left to ruin.

Kim Inman's complete and continued deception of
his followers is causing more and more to step forward.

There are a growing number of YMMSS-Success
Through Advertising affiliates here who are willing
to risk their accounts by posting the truth.

Clean up your own house before you try to clean
up ours.

Despite my total disregard for Kim Inman and his
ponzi "business", I would not post anything I viewed
as proprietary information here. Almost everything
I post here is available by conference calls or other
places around the net.

As for the anonymity issue, if legally necessary,
we could probably all be tracked down. So how
anonymous are we really?

We all tend to get off topic once in a while, but
continued bickering in a thread really brings the
thread down a notch in some people's minds.

Is BTCohen a "spy"? lol Don't know, don't care,
doesn't matter.

If he is here to subtly attempt to sway people
to favoring YMMSS, it will become apparent over
time. The closest I've seen him to doing that
was in the "terms of service" thread.

In the "But the Terms of Service said.... (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3239)" thread,
BTCohen questioned why we think YMMSS is
illegally structured. Gringo, Merc, Watchdog and
I replied. Perhaps he was sidetracked by the
stuff in this thread, but he hasn't given any
feedback on our thoughts in that thread.

They have enough paranoia about "spies" at
the YMForums. We don't need it here.

Nothing proprietary is ever posted at the
YMForums, so I have no worries for myself
or any of the YMMSS members who post
here.

Their main concern about our "hiding behind
anonymity" is that we can routinely expose
the B.S. propaganda that is continuously
used to keep people believing and spending.

No need to get into petty disputes here,
although I do understand the high level
of emotion that some who feel scammed
are experiencing. Try venting to the
proper legal authorities as well as here. ;)

BTCohen

September 25th, 2005, 11:56 AM

Hi Surfer

I dont get email notification so I occasionally forget where I've been and who I've been talking to. I was not avoiding the thread. I will go there and respond as a good YM sp. , er um, I mean a good boy ought to.

Yours sincerely

Esto, I mean Kim, I mean Brian, I ..

Spy indeed? I just want paid.

Dreamer

September 25th, 2005, 02:19 PM

Spy indeed? I just want paid.

That is why I've always encouraged ym members to post here using a different name and making sure what they post cannot be linked back to their ym account.

While it is an illegial ponzi, in my opinion, i dont want anybody to jeoperdize any potential money they might receive from that site.

wisernow

March 14th, 2006, 12:58 PM

BT,
I got on this forum after I was scammed into joining YMMSS. By the way, I got on the forum today and saw their new method of censoring. They didn't delete the whole post, but instead deleted lines of the post and replaced them with bold red type that explained why the lines were deleted.

I talked about my YMMSS experience and expressed my disappointment and my whole post was deleted. I've literally spent days on these forums trying to learn about these scams. I'm thinking that the government is trying to stop them and that is why YMMSS is only taking their "debit card" because none of the legitimate companies will pay to them anymore.

Esto, you are despicable. You are still taking people's hard earned money. You are still luring unsuspecting people desperate to make a little extra money into your scam. I would say that, from talking to the membership and reading what they have to say on the forums that most of the people are just staying to see how long it will be before the authorities shut you down or you and Kim just run off. Oh, oops, maybe you don't have to worry since you are in a country where they can't get to you? I would LOVE to see you deported and jailed! How's THAT for a negative comment?