So let me get this straight?

[Gowen32]

I'm fairly new to this site, and the whole lawsuit thing. I just want to get a few things straight.

95% or more of matrix sites have a Terms page and they state everything you need to know in them. About the site and refunds and what the site is really about. This lawsuit that WatchDog is sueing over is all because he failed to read their terms of service. Yes these sites are misleading when you first look at them, but everything is mentioned right there on the site. Black & White. I read these sites and now understand them. BECAUSE I READ THEM. I really think this lawsuit is quite dumb. Just read the terms of service. I really do feel bad for you guys that couldn't read them. I am totally on ezexpo's side. I don't care what any of you say, you failed to read terms and anything else on the site so I think you all should just have to bite the gun and live with yourselves. With purchasing on the site and not agreeing to the terms of ezexpo you are breaking their rules and they should sue you back once this dumb lawsuit is over. And personally I hope they do. This is just like going to a school not following the rules and you are still allowed to stay in school. This is pathedic. I feel bad for you pathedic people. ezexpo better win this and they have full support from us.

[concerned]

According to the law, these terms of service serve somewhat like a contract. When you enter into a contract with somebody else, you have to go by those terms. There are at least two exceptions to those rules that I will mention here. (I am sure that there are more, but I don't know them off the top of my head.)

1) You CANNOT enter into a contract with a minor. That is anybody under the age of 18. That is why a minor CANNOT buy a car without a parent present to sign the papers. ANY contract entered into with a minor is AUTOMATICALLY deemed an illegal contract, and will not stand up in court.

2) You CANNOT enter into a contract when the terms of the contract constitute illegal activity. That would apply to any crime. If you wanted to pay me to murder someone, and we had it on paper that you would pay me a $100 down payment, and then pay me $10,000 after I killed that person, and we both signed it, according to you, that would be a binding contract. But if I were to sue you because you never paid me the $10,000, the lawsuit would be thrown out of court because a contract with terms that constitute an illegal activity is not a binding contract.

No matter what those terms of sale say, they will eventually be considered illegal activity, and any person who entered into an agreement based on illegal activity or false pretenses will automatically be relieved from their association to those contracts due to the fact that they were entering into a contract with terms that constitute illegal activity.

[uwantme]

Heres where te ever popular debate comes in. No one has made the official ruling that matrix sites are illegal. So the TOS stands...

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
Heres where te ever popular debate comes in. No one has made the official ruling that matrix sites are illegal. So the TOS stands...

That is where the lawsuit comes into place. They are suing based on the fact that they were entering into an illegal activity. Why don't you read my posts more carefully. I said that they will eventually be deemed illegal OFFICIALLY. Also, you typos have gotten a little worse in your last few posts. Type slower so that others can understand you.

[uwantme]

I wont take this off subject but for the last time to you and anyone else who may want to complain Im not going to change my typing so quit compaing about it. Its just being petty.....

[peterdragin]

Gowen32

You are totaly on ezexpo's side then what about them promising the gift within 3 to 6 weeks after they cycled.

So far very few have recived anything in 5 mos. They are now guilty of ilegal business practices, acording to the law that is.
The arguement that the money is frozen has no bearing on the fact they wewe promised the gift !

This is also printed on there website.

[uwantme]

You know something else I dont understand is that yo guys seem to have this image of "if" matrix sites are ruled illegal all site owners will be immediatley arrested, charged, etc... This is not the case. If you are operating a business that is not illegal and later down the road they change the laws or make them illegal they just dont throw everyone in jail. All site owners will be allowed a grace period to close down their sites and depending on the judges orders may or may not have to issue refunds. Its like a grandfather clause. You know how its against the law not to wear your seatbelt now but cars before like 1960 didnt have seatbelts in them. So if you drive one of those cars you cant get a ticket because it falls under the grandfather clause. I know this isnt exaclty the same a a matrix site but you should be able to understand what Im saying.

[concerned]

The grandfather clause doesn't quite work in this case, at least the way you use it here. First of all, what a grandfather clause would say here is that any NEW matrix sites that open would be illegal, but the ones that are established would be grandfathered in. That is totally different. As for the fact that they will have a grace period because a NEW law is being written, well I have news for you, there will NOT be any new laws being written because they are basing the lawsuit on the INTERPRETATION of currently written laws. In fact, the matrix community is saying that the matrix sites are LEGAL because they are INTERPRETING the laws to make it seem LEGAL. All the courts have to do is say that the matrix communities INTERPRETATIONS are wrong, and they will be in violation of laws that were in place before they started operating.

FINALLY, my stance has always been WHEN they are deemed illegal, not IF. Get it right!

[uwantme]

Originally posted by uwantme
I know this isnt exaclty the same a a matrix site but you should be able to understand what Im saying.

You know I will quote myself to say I even said it wasnt exactly the same thing but you should be able to understand what Im saying. I know its not exactly the same thing. Also this point was brought up before but I feel it need to be reposted If Tim wins the lawsuit in CA that only means matrix sites cannot operate in CA becauce each state has different lotterly rules. In order for all matrix sites to be deemed "illegal lotteries" it has to go to a federal court and have a national federal ruling or each state has to seperately officially declare them illegal lotteries in that state.. Until that time matrix sites can operate in any state that hasnt declared them illegal lotteries...

[concerned]

Originally posted by uwantme
You know I will quote myself to say I even said it wasnt exactly the same thing but you should be able to understand what Im saying. I know its not exactly the same thing. Also this point was brought up before but I feel it need to be reposted If Tim wins the lawsuit in CA that only means matrix sites cannot operate in CA becauce each state has different lotterly rules. In order for all matrix sites to be deemed "illegal lotteries" it has to go to a federal court and have a national federal ruling or each state has to seperately officially declare them illegal lotteries in that state.. Until that time matrix sites can operate in any state that hasnt declared them illegal lotteries...

But you don't understand. In the end all it will be is an INTERPRETATION of current laws. The case law will be in place, and the CURRENT laws will be ammended to include the WORD MATRIX.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by Gowen32
95% or more of matrix sites have a Terms page and they state everything you need to know in them. About the site and refunds and what the site is really about. This lawsuit that WatchDog is sueing over is all because he failed to read their terms of service.

Before we even continue to debate about what mr. gowen has said I would like to critique the basis of his argument. I got into EzExpo in March, 2003, and if you would have done your research you would know that EzExpo did NOT have a TOS until later than that. Take a look about this post from Shelby on "Matrixforum"

From: Shelby Sent: 4/13/2003 8:39 PM
As was posted before, we cannot give refunds, when paysystems made their big foolish mistake....they took away any access we have including refunds. That money is coming in May, not that it matters, because our new processor is holding for a month...that will be in May also.

Now refunds are removed, and their are not many, just what I consider Spring cleaning...We don't want anyone in our program who cannot read and follow the policies... When the new auto code, that I wrote, comes online there will be a pop up screen that the purchaser will have to click on to agree to our TOS and it clearly states the policy, No REFUNDS.

If I see someone has asked for a refund from paysystems, I remove them from the list. Yes, I reserve the right to remove anyone from the list for the free items we give away.

The good thing with the auto code is:
1. The customer never leaves the site.
2. The customer agrees to the TOS, or the never get to the processor.
3. With the receipt comes the link, which is the product.
4. The above steps will take less than 5 minutes, including post back of names to the list automatically.

Oh yes, I don't really spend too much time looking at the paysystems account. If some names are missed.. oh well once they get to the top...autocycly and no free gift for them.

We haven't really started to hit hard yet...I had to get all the ducks in a row and ease into each step slowly.
This has all been completed and will happen this month....

Thanks,
Shelby

Those TOS were not up until early May.

[Gowen32]

Okay that's fine that ezexpo didn't have their tos up then. But what about all these other sites. Every site I visit now has a tos it seems like. When purchasing from them you are agreeing to the tos and entering a contact with the site. Since the sites aren't illegal yet these contracts you are agreeing to are fine. The tos should save their butts. Until these sites are illegal I say they are safe with there tos if they describe everything in them. You just have to read and do a little research before you buy into a site. It's just like buying a new computer your not just going to go to the store and pick any ol' computer. Your going to read into it and what it all has to offer. Same with matrix sites you need to read and see what they all offer and this is all based in the tos.

[Agent|Star]

You come off as being a smart guy WatchDOg... You should know better then to join a site without a ToS...

Ever since joing the Matrix world.. ToS has held such a greater importance to me. All the new things you install or sites you join that require you to agree to terms.. How many of you read it? Hehehe start making the time to print and read.. You'll find some crazy things sometimes..

Also, I will agree I thought a ToS was a binding contract as concerned pointed out there are 2 parts that will break the bind... Matrix Sites.. innocent until proven guilty and like uwantme says.. thats just the state of cali... on the flip side i think this one case will have a snowball effect......... :confused:

[concerned]

Originally posted by BigStarr
Also, I will agree I thought a ToS was a binding contract as concerned pointed out there are 2 parts that will break the bind... Matrix Sites.. innocent until proven guilty and like uwantme says.. thats just the state of cali... on the flip side i think this one case will have a snowball effect......... :confused:

And you don't think that local judges talk to federal judges? Like I said before, the matrix sites MISINTERPRETED federal laws. Once the lawsuit is over, the judge will probably refer the case to a federal judge to start that snowball effect.

[Agent|Star]

yeah

[MatrixWatch]

Well.. A couple things..

First, several matrix sites did not have a TOS in the "old days". TOS became a BIG DEAL especially after the lawsuit. But even so, your view is naive. The TOS is meaningless.

Second, it means nothing that the lawsuit is only in California. Many states have the same laws, and I would challenge a matrix site to continue operating if the suit favors my side. This website will still be running and we WILL go after you like the speed of light if you are still collecting money at that time.


It seems that mr. gowen has changed his argument. He criticised me for not reading a TOS, which I showed him did not exist. Now, he asks about all the matrix sites that DO have a TOS in order to save face. My answer is that in the face of the justice system, the BBB, the Attorney General, and the other government authorities, your TOS is completely meaningless, and you cannot hide behind it. A TOS must be based upon a legitimate business model. The matrix sites are now on the grill for this.