Kanosis anyone?

[garp2100]

Hello people, grea forum, very informative, I was wondering if anyone had any info on Kanosis and their COIL software, seems to be a matrix system but the product doesn't seem to be worthless...if it's true it's actually a pretty cool an innovative ide but again it has someone from Herbalife handling the marketing (so I've heard) if you have any info good or bad I would really appreciate it, thanks! :crazy:

[Webwatch]

Looking at the software it is just a program to access e-mail which can be done free from any computer connected to the internet.

In my opinion its just another take on a pyramid scheme which I would stay well clear of.

Anyone else agree or disagree.

[ycchen]

garp2100, Welcome to MatrixWatch! :)

When a scheme tries to hard to distinguish itself from a pyramid, usually it is. ;) Just go to the FAQ, and you will find the pyramid (more than MLM) language loud and clear.

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/faqs/lang/english/faqs
What is Pre Launch/Early Registration?

This is the phase of the business as we implement and ensure all our systems are fully operational. We have given those that chose to, an opportunity to position themselves in the very beginning of this company. Many people see this as a great opportunity but those that choose to take up the opportunity must understand that we are not 100% ready and be a little patient.

Will Commissions be paid in the pre launch phase?

Yes. We only ask that you are a little patient with us as we get all of our systems integrated and fully operational.


They don't give commission for recruiting except the prelaunch phase? :eek: :head:

Come on, what kind of legtimate business do this kind of "prelaunch" activity? That's a big red flag. The prelanuch is the most attractive period where the pyramid scheme attract the first group of habitual speculators (plus some innocent newbies) so they will benefit from the pyramid afterward and protect it from criticism and collapse.

When a program/scheme prelanuch, you know it is a pyramid-style business that is using "divide and rule" tactic to reward a few in exchange for their loyalty. These front row seat people will act as a buffer to fense off direct criticism from the latecomers. The owner will just play innocent and "hardworking" while all the front row early birds do the heavy weight lifting for him/her.

To get a remote accessing software for free, there are plenty of them. The one I am using (free) is www.logmein.com. It works provide that you have broad band.

The other way to check if a program/scheme is a pyramid/ponzi or not is to go to moneymakegroup.com. If you find some insider promoting it, you stay away.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327

Of course, if you are habitual ponzi players, you join at your own risk, just don't deceive others into your game! I don't care if a bunch of habitual ponzi players kill themselves in the launching phase. The problem is that they won't stop after the launching period. They will start promoting the ponzi/pyramid scam to make more money, or recuop their lost (when they fail to get into the front row seat).

That's the dynamic of ponzi/pyramid. And if you see this type of "design", you know it is a ponzi/pyramid scheme. Of course, it does not mean you will not get pay. It just mean that even if you get into the front row seat and get pay in less than 24 hours, you are still guilty of stealing other latecomer's money.

A legitimate business won't steal money from latecomers. Period.

[jokach]

ycchen makes a great point about the whole pre-launch concept.

matrix sites started doing that, and the even the randomizers and money doublers were doing it as well, they counted on getting 30 people signed up in 'pre-launch' before it would be generally opened to the public. It was just a way to build the pilot group up to make money and usually consisted of the high-rollers who knew how the program worked.

If there is no way for a business to sustain a means of generating long-term income/revenue without taking from the latecomers, you should stay clear from it, because regardless of what they call it, its a ponzi ..

jokach

[uk2go]

Looked at it, saw the obvious plug for their software, which I agree with ycchen similar software can be obtained freely elsewhere. However, they don't seem to force you to subscribe to this, so I thought the $15 annual fee for the basic concept seemed good.

HOWEVER.......
You cannot signup unless you have been referred by someone else, the website does not allow this. Personally I think this is a major flaw, and will result in its failure.

[ascavuzzo]

Hello people, grea forum, very informative, I was wondering if anyone had any info on Kanosis and their COIL software, seems to be a matrix system but the product doesn't seem to be worthless...if it's true it's actually a pretty cool an innovative ide but again it has someone from Herbalife handling the marketing (so I've heard) if you have any info good or bad I would really appreciate it, thanks! :crazy:


February 11, 2006 USA

A hard look at Kanosis / COIL

Because Kanosis is an internet technology and not another overpriced health or other product, I took a good hard look at Kanosis / COIL..

I spoke with the techs about the product and it's capabilities, and I spoke with the management team about their marketing strategy (Matrix).

The product, a new secure internet based operating system / work station seems to be a phenomenal product. I couldn't find anything with this products features and capabilities anywhere on the internet, particularly for free..I found information in the form of articles that talked about Microsoft developing a product just like it for launch in the next 3 years. That and other information I found leads me to believe that the Kanosis product and the like, is the direction the internet is headed in...

So, as people that know me will tell you, I'm pretty cynical when it comes to new products, particularly when they use a network marketing strategy to launch their product. I give this product the very highest rating that I ever have. As a matter of fact, I'm now going to use the product and integrate it into our business platform.

As for the marketing strategy being used to introduce and market the product. There are some distinguishable differences between matrix marketing as we all have experienced and what Alistair Kildey of Kanosis has introduced.

The company is financially healthy
The $15.00 annual fee to join is not intrusive and understandable.
The product, well it is phenomenal and is in no way overpriced at $22.00 per month.
I believe their matrix marketing feature will allow at a minimum allow people to earn enough money to offset any cost associated with it's use. And, because I see this a HUGE potential market place, there will be more than just a few people earning thousands per month with their marketing strategy.

All in all, I don't see a negative aspect to this company, product or the marketing vehicle they're using, and I've never said that about any other company I've seen that used a matrix...

I'm happy to answer any questions about my due diligence on Kanosis / COIL

Kind regards,

Anthony Scavuzzo
Matrix Watch username - AScavuzzo

[Webwatch]

ITS A PYRAMID SCHEME!!!!!!!!!

Trying to promote it on this forum site is a waste of time, many have tried and failed.

[ascavuzzo]

Whoever you are

I don't know who you are, but I asure you my reply to the post that was made was NOT any attempt to promote Kanosis. If this board is a one way street with regard to all companies and products being promoted using network marketing, then I'm in the wrong group.

We are using the product and so far we love it, AND yes, we are now participating with and having a great deal of success with their marketing plan. I'm sorry if that's a problem for you.. I just call em as I see em..

Kind regards,

AScvuzzo

[ascavuzzo]

Looking at the software it is just a program to access e-mail which can be done free from any computer connected to the internet.

In my opinion its just another take on a pyramid scheme which I would stay well clear of.

Anyone else agree or disagree.

You need to take a much closer look at Kanosis powered by COIL. This is a secure, internet based operating system / work station. This is a product that will allow you to safely store your files, and even run your business without the necessarily of a big expensive computer. If you can get online, you will have everything you need to maneuver on the internet without the worries of virus, hard drive crashes, etc.

Microsoft is supposed to be working on theirs for launch in the next three years. It will eliminate pirateing of their software, and provide them many other benefoits.. From what I've learned, this is the direction the internet is headed and headed fast... .

[Webwatch]

This gets even better- so users will be able to use kanosis servers which will mean giving away usernames and passwords.

I don't know who you are, but I asure you my reply to the post that was made was NOT any attempt to promote Kanosis. If this board is a one way street with regard to all companies and products being promoted using network marketing, then I'm in the wrong group.

As we have different opinions on this it may be worth seeing what others have to say. I take it you think debates are one sided if not everybody agrees with you

This thred can hopefully raise a debate on the whole kanosis Pyramid Scheme (the Kanosis/coil promoting websites even have a picture of a pyramid on them).

[ascavuzzo]

This gets even better- so users will be able to use kanosis servers which will mean giving away usernames and passwords.



As we have different opinions on this it may be worth seeing what others have to say. I take it you think debates are one sided if not everybody agrees with you

This thred can hopefully raise a debate on the whole kanosis Pyramid Scheme (the Kanosis/coil promoting websites even have a picture of a pyramid on them).

I don't mind debating Kanosis. I can contribute what I've learned from my own investagation of the company. Your post was very explicit and was not in the context of an opinion or offer any explination as to weather you even looked into Kanosis. Kind regards,
AScavuzzo

[Webwatch]

I may be repeating myself a bit but here are my points why I dont believe Kanosis is a genuine investment opportunity:

1. Paying $22 a month for coil software which is a just a version of freeley available software is a nonsense

2. Enticing you to get more members to sign up to earn money from a Pyramid setup is a joke. (Now Illegal in the UK and for good reason).

3. Claiming to be 3 years ahead of Microsoft is laughable

4. Using so called secure servers 3rd party servers to access e-mail etc has all the hallmarks of identity theft waiting to happen.

5. Saying that a piece of software which is based on javascript is unpirateable and secure beggers belief.


These are just my initial arguments against this Pyramid Scheme and although it may be attractive to some as it seems in its early stages I would estimate in 12 Months there will be a lot of posts complaining about it.

One final point, to post a promotional advert on Kanosis on this thread and then say you are not promoting it is strange to say the least and will now backfire as anyone searching for Kanosis via google will find this thread on the first 2 pages.

As this only seems to be a 2 man debate at the moment i invite others to join in, especially if you don't agree with me.

[uk2go]

While I agree with you about the COIL software not being as truly amazing as its made out, it makes me think more of an MLM than a pyramid scheme...or am I missing something?

Besides, to belong you don't HAVE to subscribe to the COIL software - although it is HEAVILY plugged and seems to be assumed that you would. My main problem with the site is that you cannot just join, you have to be referred by someone before you can join up and investigate further. This seems silly as it severely limits the potential customer base.

Has anyone communicated with them in person, asking them to come to MatrixWatch to discuss this further?

[JNRAY]

Hi everyone. I am glad to see you discuss on this topic since I have been looking that. I am a Kanosis member and I have been introduced by a well meaning friend but I am still not 100% sure how great Kanosis really is that's why I am looking for more clarity. Up to this point however I have not seen any real good arguments against Kanosis. I can say that they dont only pay comissions in the prelaunch phase but to everyone who will join later on. As long as people will buy the Coil product the Matrices of all users will grow and earn income. They use the same security level as Banks use to store the data and there is also an additional safety measure which enables people to encript their data before saving it on the Kanosis servers. (They are also planning to offer more other exciting software not only Coil) Another reason why Kanosis seems to be differerent than other MLM's is the name Jim Southworth who is behind the company. He is one of the Top 10 people on the planet when it comes to the Internet, apparently a pioneer of the Internet. (Type in his name with Google and you get over 400'000 hits. ) I do agree with ycchen on the point that it is not always fair for the people who are at the end of the matrix, in probably all the MLM's we've seen sofar at least. If that will be the case with Kanosis I have yet to find out. We have to consider that the Coil product is worth the 22$/month to some even without earning an extra penny to it. In that case we can expect Kanosis to stay successful for many years to come. IF someone has any other arguments against Kanosis then I am willing to consider them.

[ycchen]

If the product is really that 'great', it does not need a pyramid scheme to promote it. Only lousy and worthless product use pyramid scheme. ;)

[uk2go]

By the looks of it there is two separate sides to Kanosis; the online community and the COIL software. The online community costs $15.00 per year, and the 'specialist' COIL software costs $22.00. In order to promote the marvelous software they are using some kind of matrix-style affiliate scheme in order to get their product out there:

Any individual, company, business may join Kanosis. You will require legitimate government issued ID as proof of Identity. You can register with Kanosis for $15 USD. This is an annual registration fee. There are NO commissions paid on this registration fee. For your $15 you receive your own personal web page, a Uniclear bank account with a debit card attached and a back office for managing your business. The debit card will be delivered to your address within 60 days. Once you are registered you have the right to enroll others in Kanosis. Wait! Is this Pyramid Selling?!

Once registered you can purchase goods from the Kanosis store. When you purchase a product with a minimum commission value (CV) of $22.00 or more you will be positioned in the Kanosis matrix and you will be positioned somewhere under the person who enrolled you in the company.

To retain this position in the matrix you must purchase product with a minimum CV of $22.00 at least once per month.

We suggest a great way to start your Kanosis business is by purchasing the COIL software subscription for $22.00 per month. This product has a CV of $22.00.
The way I see it, this is a business model trying to emulate MySpace, Yahoo, AOL and Geocities - building an online community with members helping each other. They are then trying to bring in an additional income stream by leasing their secure desktop software. However, they are risking critiscism by concentrating the entire website on this software, which makes people believe that THIS is the main product.

I personally am not interested in the COIL software, but AM interested in the online community aspect which comes complete with bank account and debit card. However, the problem is that you cannot simply sign up - an existing member must refer you.

What if you don't know anyone who is an existing member? How do you sign up then?!

[uk2go]

As an addon, we must remember that there are two separate items being offered.

The community is known as Kanosis, and the software is COIL.
It appears that it is COIL that is controversial with its affiliate-marketing. Kanosis itself seems to be a reasonable community service.

[Webwatch]

Kanosis is the Pyramid Community and coil is just the cheapest item that must be purchased each month in order to stay in the scheme.

This is worse than the Pyramid schemes that just want hundred dollars then expect you to introduce others and wait (They dont work either).

With Kanosis you have to pay a minimum of $22 every month (this will no doubt go up as the scheme loses momentum) or you lose your so called position.

Ive already seen some google pay per click adds popping up from kanosis members trying to entice people to join the scheme using their referral name of course.

My position remains unchanged: Stay well clear

[uk2go]

Kanosis is the Pyramid Community and coil is just the cheapest item that must be purchased each month in order to stay in the scheme.

With Kanosis you have to pay a minimum of $22 every month (this will no doubt go up as the scheme loses momentum) or you lose your so called position.No webwatch, you are incorrect.

As they have stated on their website, you do not HAVE TO subscribe to their COIL software. In actual fact, you qualify for your commission earnings as long as you have a $22 purchase from their advertising lists - does not HAVE to be their own COIL software.

It is perfectly acceptable - according to the texts on their website - to simply pay a $15 dollar annual fee to belong to their online community. This means that you wouldnt be earning any extra money from their affiliate program, but you would still be a member of their community.

As stated several times before (and ignored!), there are two separate items here that are chargeable. Kanosis is the online community, with the COIL software being a separate available item. Whilst you do have to be a member of Kanosis to get the COIL software, the reverse is not true.

You do not need to subscribe to the COIL software and join the affiliate system in order to be a member of Kanosis. This means that you can be a member of Kanosis and not have to do anything considered 'dodgy'. Therefore, it is wrong to call Kanosis a 'pyramid community'.

[uk2go]

Just a further thought....

As Kanosis is based in Greece, does anyone know the affiliate/MLM/pyramid laws over there?

[Webwatch]

Sorry uk2go my post was a bit unclear- I meant you had to buy something (it doesn't have to be coil) every month to stay in position and also everyone you introduce has to buy something worth $22 (commision value) every month for you to earn any supposed income.

[uk2go]

That's very true. Means that it's not a very good business for people wanting to make alot of money! However, I'm still not convinced that its a pyramid scheme rather than just an ill-conceived MLM.

[uk2go]

IMPORTANT:

I would just like to backtrack a bit, and say that this is either a badly-thought out system or is a con. I will explain why in 2 separate messages.

Doing a search on Google I found kanosis.org which appears to be an affiliates own website with a forum attached. In this forum they included their affiliate sign-in name - Hey Presto...I could register! (mariapinto, for those that want to doublecheck what I say)

BUT......you get to the charges screen, where I expected a basic $15 annual charge...NO Instead, you are charged $15 annual fee, plus 2 months subscription to the COIL software. This is MANDATORY, and cannot be altered or subtracted. In other words, although the website states it is an option, it is in fact a statuary requirement of the site that you take the software. This means that instead of a $15 fee, your credit card is charged $59.

Either someone has made a mistake in the programming of the site, or more likely this is a deliberate attempt to fool people into paying this amount. After all, if people have gone so far as to get referred by someone and make several clicks on their mouse, they will often resign themselves to paying a little extra - psychology 101.

In the next comment I will include their terms & conditions....seems alittle 'shady' to me.

[uk2go]

Terms & Conditions of Kanosis:


Kanosis Terms and Conditions

Kanosis International Pre-launch Terms and Conditions

1, The following terms and conditions shall apply and therefore remain effective from 7 December 2005, until either revised or revolked by Kanosis International (Kanosis).

2, Any individual of legal age ( this age is determined by the legal age you may enter into a contract in the jurisdiction that you reside) or any legal entity such as a company, trust, business or foundation may take a single position as a Kanosis Independent Community Member with Kanosis. Those individuals or entities who take a position in Kanosis will, after the pre launch period, will be required to provide legal proof of identity. Such proof will be in the form of government issued identity such as a driver’s license, passport, social security number or certificate of incorporation. Those not of legal age may still participate with the written permission of a parent or legal guardian. This legal proof of identity will be required for you to receive or continue to receive commissions.

3, By proceeding with this online application, I am applying to become a Kanosis Independent Community Member. I have carefully read and agree to all the Terms and Conditions in this document and I understand and agree that I will need to reconfirm my position as a Kanosis Independent Community Member when the company officially launches. I understand that at the time of this confirmation I will be asked to agree to the full Policies and procedures that will be published at that time. A Kanosis Independent Community Member has the right to cancel their Agreement with Kanosis at any time, regardless of reason. Cancellation must be submitted in writing to Kanosis at its principal place of business in Cyprus.

4. As used throughout these terms and conditions, the term “Agreement” shall collectively refer to the Kanosis Independent Community Member Application and Agreement as well the Kanosis Marketing and Compensation Plan. These documents, in their current form and as amended by Kanosis, at its sole discretion, are incorporated by reference into these terms and conditions, and constitute the entire contract between Kanosis and Independent distributors. No other representation, promise, or agreement, shall be binding on the parties unless in writing and signed by an authorized officer of Kanosis.

5. I agree that as a Kanosis Independent Community Member I am an independent contractor, and not an employee, agent, partner, legal representative, or franchisee of Kanosis. I UNDERSTAND THAT I SHALL NOT BE TREATED AS AN EMPLOYEE OF KANOSIS FOR TAX PURPOSES. Kanosis is not responsible for withholding, and shall not withhold or deduct from my bonuses and commissions, taxes of any kind, unless such withholding is or becomes legally required.

6. I agree to present the Kanosis Marketing and Compensation Plan fairly and completely. I shall never represent that the purchase of any goods or services are required to participate at any level of the Kanosis program.

7. I understand that Kanosis does not guarantee or warrant that Community Members will earn an income. Under no circumstances shall I represent that a Kanosis Independent Community Member is guaranteed an income. I understand that my income is dependent on the sales of Kanosis goods and services to end-users. Accordingly, I shall not represent that commissions or bonuses may be earned by the mere act of enrolling other Community Members.

8. Kanosis, its directors, officers, shareholders, employees, assigns, and agents (collectively referred as “affiliates”), shall not be liable for, and I release Kanosis and its affiliates from, and waive all claims for, consequential and exemplary damages arising from or relating to Kanosis’s performance of its duties and obligations under the Agreement. I further agree to hold harmless and indemnify Kanosis and its affiliates from any claims and/or liability arising from or relating to the promotion or operation of my Kanosis business and any activities related to it (e.g., the presentation of Kanosis products or Compensation and Marketing Plan, the operation of a motor vehicle, the lease of meeting or training facilities, etc.).

9. I may not assign any rights or delegate my duties under this Agreement without the prior written consent of Kanosis. Any attempt to transfer or assign this Agreement without the express written consent of Kanosis renders this Agreement voidable at the option of Kanosis and may result in disciplinary action.

10. I understand that the Agreement may be amended at the sole discretion of Kanosis, and I agree that all such amendments will apply to me. Amendments shall become effective upon publication in official Kanosis literature. The continuation of my Kanosis business or my acceptance of bonuses or commissions shall constitute my acceptance of any and all amendments.

11. The term of this Agreement is one year. There will be an annual renewal fee for Community Members. Kanosis reserves the right to take disciplinary action for Community Member who violates the Agreement, or who engages in any conduct that, in Kanosis’s sole discretion, damages Kanosis’s reputation, or which is a violation of any law, regulation, or ordinance.

12. Community Members may cancel this agreement at any time, and for any reason, by giving written notice to the Company at its principal business address.

13. If any provision of this Agreement is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable, and the balance of the Agreement will remain in full force and effect.

14. If my Community Membership Agreement is cancelled or terminated at any time for any reason, I understand that I will permanently lose all rights as a Community Member, including but not limited to rights to bonuses and commissions. I further agree to waive all rights and claims to my prior marketing organization, including but not limited to any property rights that I may have.

15. Legal proof of Identity must besupplied to Kanosis in order to be able to receive Commissions. This will apply from the date of the official launch only.

16. To ensure that Kanosis meets regulatory requirements in ensuring that this system is not used in the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, we are required to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each member opening an account. What this means for you is that we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. To verify this information, we may request identifying documents and obtain reports from third parties, such as credit reporting agencies.

17. I confirm that when Kanosis officially launches that I will read and agree to the international Policy & Procedures and confirm I will at all times fully and totally comply with all my legal and moral obligations referred to therein as if the same forms part and parcel of this Agreement. I acknowledge the Policies & Procedures can be amended by you from time to time as Kanosis sees fit.

18. All order dates and times are entered in Cyprus Time, not local time.

19. In the pre launch period the promotion of the Kanosis opportunity is restricted to personal invitation only. NO ADVERTISING IS PERMITTED IN THIS PERIOD. Email invitations are to be to known friends and associates only. NO SPAMMING IS PERMITTED. Any persons or entities caught spamming will be terminated immediately.



In other words, if anyone says ANYTHING remotely negative on any forum such as MatrixWatch against them, they will be suspended without refund. Even matrix sites dont do this!

[mercinary]

Does that sound like a rule that a legitimate company would have?

-Merc

[Webwatch]

I especially like Clause 10.

So in other words they can do what they like when they like, seems extremely dodgy to me.

Reading between the lines of these Terms and Conditions which seem the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read it seems the primary members are trying to build in a quick escape plan for when things go wrong.

[uk2go]

I guess alot depends on what the MLM laws are like in Greece. If there arent any applicable laws, then I guess they think they can get away with it.

Also annoys me that I cant find any way to communicate with them....wanted to email them with several 'interesting' questions.

[JNRAY]

NO Instead, you are charged $15 annual fee, plus 2 months subscription to the COIL software. This is MANDATORY, and cannot be altered or subtracted. In other words, although the website states it is an option, it is in fact a statuary requirement of the site that you take the software. This means that instead of a $15 fee, your credit card is charged $59.

Probably the mandatory subscription is only now during the Prelauch phase. Sometime this month Kanosis will launch and then you will most probably be able to join without paying the 44$ for Coil. The Prelaunch Period is only for those who want to earn Comissions. By No Spamming in clause 19 they most probably mean search engine spamming.

[uk2go]

I understand what you are saying (guessing), but at the end of the day they are acting in a fraudalent manner. They state on the front-end of the website that the software is an option - this gets people interested. Only once you have talked yourself into it do you find out that actually it is mandatory.

As many people here will know, often the pre-launch phase can go on for months and months, and sometimes the pre-launch phase will be followed by.......nothing. For an example, does anyone remember JuiceBoosted?!


I predict here and now that the prelaunch phase will be extended till at at least March, if not longer.

[JNRAY]

One of my friends recorded the Live conference calls. If anyone wants to get more information go to http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/audio.htm There you will get all the information you need.

[JNRAY]

At the end of the day we cannot forget that Kanosis, although a Hybrid and not fully MLM, is still MLM and will sell a product in order for people to promote it and get paid for it. Only that this company sells a very good product and pays 70%!!! back to the users. If you are not at all interested in earning any money then dont join. Why would someone join an MLM without wanting to make some financial gain???

[uk2go]

This is easy to answer!

Kanosis claims to be an online community. The main feature is that of providing a free webpage, along with a bank account and debit card - all for just $15 a year. They have an added option of making money by affiliating their secure online desktop COIL software - this is the MLM part of the site. However, they state quite clearly that the MLM part of the website is optional, and that no-one has to take part in it of they do not wish to.

Personally, I am interested in the main feature of the online community coupled with webpage, bank account and debit card. It seems, however, that this is not available to anyone at present UNLESS you also take part in the MLM. As this is not stated as integrated together on the main part of the website, and instead it is proclaimed to be separate, I believe it to be fraudalent advertising.

[ycchen]

This is easy to answer!

Kanosis claims to be an online community. The main feature is that of providing a free webpage, along with a bank account and debit card - all for just $15 a year. They have an added option of making money by affiliating their secure online desktop COIL software - this is the MLM part of the site. However, they state quite clearly that the MLM part of the website is optional, and that no-one has to take part in it of they do not wish to.

Personally, I am interested in the main feature of the online community coupled with webpage, bank account and debit card. It seems, however, that this is not available to anyone at present UNLESS you also take part in the MLM. As this is not stated as integrated together on the main part of the website, and instead it is proclaimed to be separate, I believe it to be fraudalent advertising. uk2go, good catch! ;) A good software (or any products) relies on word of months and not some force matrix (with prelaunc :crazy: ) that disguist as MLM. :shake:

[JNRAY]

Of all that I heard and seen sofar is that Kanosis has always openly said that their primary goal is to allow people to become financially independant. If you listen to Alystair Kildey's interview on the above link you will see that clearly. If you go to their website you are invited to join the Globaly Online Community on a link that leads you to see the flash presentation. The whole presentation is about the Coil product and nothing else. Nowhere does Kanosis invite you to be just part of the Global Community without becoming involved in Coil and the business.The debit card and the account are only there to pay out commissions.(as far as I know)

[JNRAY]

Sorry, You are right I just saw it on their website. The 15$ includes a debit card and account. I do see your point now...

[Webwatch]

The more I look into Kanosis the more I am convinced it is a Pyramid Scheme.

The classic use of phrases such as Financial Independance, Referrals and Pyramid style tables to show projected income's are the main reasons.

Pyramid Schemes nearly always try and convince people that they are in the early stages of launch even though the key members are already in place.
These key members are usually the only ones who benefit.

Looking at their terms and conditions is another convincing factor.

I must admit though that I have seen one so well disguised and well dressed as this one.

[uk2go]

webwatch; you seem very keen on labelling it a pyamid scheme"

I'm not so convinced of that - I think its a Multi-Level Marketing plan. They are similar in many ways, but as there is - apparently - a product at the end of the deal then I don't think it would qualify as a pyramid scheme. MLM's revolve around recruiting others to buy items from you, and then getting them to recruit others etc. That seems more like what they are trying to do.

Don't forget, the actual Kanosis website proclaims to be an online community, so it is only PART of the process would quantify as an MLM.

[Arzel]

webwatch; you seem very keen on labelling it a pyamid scheme"

I'm not so convinced of that - I think its a Multi-Level Marketing plan. They are similar in many ways, but as there is - apparently - a product at the end of the deal then I don't think it would qualify as a pyramid scheme. MLM's revolve around recruiting others to buy items from you, and then getting them to recruit others etc. That seems more like what they are trying to do.

Don't forget, the actual Kanosis website proclaims to be an online community, so it is only PART of the process would quantify as an MLM.

Kanosis (by description given in this thread) has designed its downline in a matrix format. It has already been demonstrated that a matrix is really just a modified ponzi model. I would appear to me that the required purchase (and don't fool yourself about this, it would most certainly be required to make any money) is analogous to the EPC's of the YMMSS matrix/ponzi.

Whenever a systems tries to design itself as a matrix it is doomed to failure, that is all the warning you should need to run far away from this scam.

[Webwatch]

I keep calling Kanosis a pyramid scheme because thats what I believe it is-the only product available is Coil which is of no value and just a version of freeley available software already out there.

Also I think this so called pre-launch phase is just meant to mislead people into thinking the scheme is just starting when in fact it is nearly at the end.

I'm going out on a limb here but i suspect in 4-5 months the whole thing will strangely dissapear, the founders will no doubt blame lack of interest or unsustainable operating costs.

--------------------------------
As I can only give my opinion on Kanosis anyone who is thinking of investing should carefully look into it and form their own.

[ascavuzzo]

I may be repeating myself a bit but here are my points why I dont believe Kanosis is a genuine investment opportunity:

1. Paying $22 a month for coil software which is a just a version of freeley available software is a nonsense

2. Enticing you to get more members to sign up to earn money from a Pyramid setup is a joke. (Now Illegal in the UK and for good reason).

3. Claiming to be 3 years ahead of Microsoft is laughable

4. Using so called secure servers 3rd party servers to access e-mail etc has all the hallmarks of identity theft waiting to happen.

5. Saying that a piece of software which is based on javascript is unpirateable and secure beggers belief.


These are just my initial arguments against this Pyramid Scheme and although it may be attractive to some as it seems in its early stages I would estimate in 12 Months there will be a lot of posts complaining about it.

One final point, to post a promotional advert on Kanosis on this thread and then say you are not promoting it is strange to say the least and will now backfire as anyone searching for Kanosis via google will find this thread on the first 2 pages.

As this only seems to be a 2 man debate at the moment i invite others to join in, especially if you don't agree with me.


From the coments you have made, which are so offbase and wrong - I cannot believe you have looked at Kanosis / COIL at all. There is no use debating someone who doesn't believe anything that is associated with network marketing could be valid, and that IS what you soumd like...
THE END

[Arzel]

From the coments you have made, which are so offbase and wrong - I cannot believe you have looked at Kanosis / COIL at all. There is no use debating someone who doesn't believe anything that is associated with network marketing could be valid, and that IS what you soumd like...
THE END

Is Kanosis based off a matrix model? That is the only question you need to ask, because if it is, it is a scam. End of story.

[Webwatch]

I'll keep this brief Ascavuzzo,
I have looked deeply into Kanosis-so deep in fact that I have seen you photo as one of the key members.
As i said before-using this Forum to promote Pyramid Schemes will always backfire.

This is only my opinion and admittedly one of a sceptic, I invite all to make up their own minds.

[uk2go]

As mentioned several times (and I feel Im being ignored here), Kanosis ITSELF is advertised as the online community, hence Kanosis itself should not be labelled a ponzi, matrix, MLM etc. It is the way they distribute the COIL software that seems dodgy.

Perhaps they should rethink how they sell the software, or try to distinquish further the differences between the software and community. As it stands currently, I am actually more concerned with their legal implications regarding fraudalent advertising - they state on the frontpage that the community is the main product with the COIL software being optional, yet when it comes to make payment this is actually mandatory.

If anybody wishes to try and stop this website, I believe the quickest way currently would be the aspect of fraudalent advertising.

[ycchen]

Is Kanosis based off a matrix model? That is the only question you need to ask, because if it is, it is a scam. End of story. straight-line matrix model = scam. This is very clear standpoint of MatrixWatch.

If Kanosis "accidentally" adopting a wrong "business" model, then, they should seriously rethink about their model because it won't work.

Just look at empowerism. A company that claim to sell "leads" but their growth is not depend on the quality of the leads but the 'straight line matrix' model. It grew super fast in the first few months and now dead.

If Kanosis really focus on their product and want to make COIL stands up from their competitors, they should adopt a non-pyramid/ponzi based business model. Again, straight-line matrix is a pyramid/ponzi based scam model and it won't work even though it does bring super fast growth in the beginning.

From our experience with matrix-based business, anyone who use prelaunch knows exactly what they are doing. They are not innocently adapting the wrong model, but purposely using this matrix-scam model to promote a shaky business and a shaky product. :shake:

Our advice is still : stay away.

[Webwatch]

After a bit more research on Kanosis I found this thread on another forum:
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=0

Due to the nature of the thread I would advise all who read it to lock away their credit and debit cards, as its seems to follow the same brain washing nature as many Pyramid Scheme meetings I have been to.

My position is still unchanged: Stay well clear.

By posting this link I thought it may be interesting in the need for a balanced debate to show how excitement & greed allow Pyramid Schemes to prosper albeit for a short period.

[Arzel]

After a bit more research on Kanosis I found this thread on another forum:
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=0

Due to the nature of the thread I would advise all who read it to lock away their credit and debit cards, as its seems to follow the same brain washing nature as many Pyramid Scheme meetings I have been to.

My position is still unchanged: Stay well clear.

By posting this link I thought it may be interesting in the need for a balanced debate to show how excitement & greed allow Pyramid Schemes to prosper albeit for a short period.

Thanks for the link Webwatch.

After reading through the MMG forum I am more confident than before that Kanosis is a SCAM. This is nothing more than a pre-launch matrix which will drag thousands of people into debt. There is absolutely NO WAY this thing will work.

Kanosis hype masters are throwing out numbers like 10 million people in a year (so even if you get in now you will still have a ton of people to take money) but the truth is that there is NO WAY they will ever reach 10 million people. The most successful scam I have seen (YMMSS/STA) based off a similar model only achieved 25,000 people (approximately) at its hype, and that took almost two years.

10 million people over one year is close to 25,000 people a day joining! There is absolutely no way that will happen.

Kanosis = MATRIX = PONZI = SCAM. Run and run fast.

[concerned]

Well, now that MMG is pushing this site, we don't even need to look at the site. Whenever MMG advertises a site, it is the kiss of death. They ONLY promote scams. If you look at their site, at lease 55% of the sites posts reside in the scam/closed/on hold section. Gee. I wonder why.

[ycchen]

Concerned is right. As I had said repeatedly. If you are not clear about a get-rich-fast site, go check on MMG (moneymakergroup.com). If you found some insiders or habitual ponzi players promoting the scheme in question, then you know the answer: stay away.

MMG is often time (not always) a very accurate way to determine if a scheme is a pyramid/ponzi/matrix. ;)

[JimSouthworth]

Before I associated myself with this organization I ran it all by my lawyer and Law Enforcement friends.... this is not a pyramid scheme, but we do have members in Egypt :-). It is a business that is using the MLM business model to distribute a bunch of new Java based web applications and network centric services. The applications allow the users to create communities of interest and operate their businesses or organizations efficiently and effectively. To make this work requires a world-wide network infrastructure with servers planned in no less than 6 strategic locations selected because of their availability to the internet traffic patterns. The first is located in London and I am building a site in the US in Northern Virginia now near the Fiber POP at AOL. The next site will be either in the far east or down-under, etc. I joined their organization about a month ago after actually being aware of and having tested some aspects of the applications specifically designed for time accounting for law firms for over the last two years.

I have requested that one of our Kanosis business managers assist me to answer any and all questions you have on the structure, business and compensation model. I can and will address anything you want on the Java apps. I must take specific exception to the gross over simplification of the "Coil" product. The developement team in Cyprus has created a new schema that will soon work seamlessly on most every platform that is supported by Sun Micro Systems Java and will allow some rather nice alternatives to MS Windows for example using "open source" Linux based systems. The know-it-all defeatest attitude toward new approaches is not entertaining to those of us who have spent most of lives working towards a business opportunity that addresses the Internet community with the same kind of "viral" marketing that uses the same power of expression that this very forum takes advantage of. I encourage any "on" or "off list" questions, we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. This is a brand new product/ASP-service being distributed in a relatively brand new way for internet based services by honest well intended experienced professionals.

[ycchen]

Before I associated myself with this organization I ran it all by my lawyer and Law Enforcement friends.... this is not a pyramid scheme, but we do have members in Egypt :-). It is a business that is using the MLM business model to distribute a bunch of new Java based web applications and network centric services. The applications allow the users to create communities of interest and operate their businesses or organizations efficiently and effectively. To make this work requires a world-wide network infrastructure with servers planned in no less than 6 strategic locations selected because of their availability to the internet traffic patterns. The first is located in London and I am building a site in the US in Northern Virginia now near the Fiber POP at AOL. The next site will be either in the far east or down-under, etc. I joined their organization about a month ago after actually being aware of and having tested some aspects of the applications specifically designed for time accounting for law firms for over the last two years.

I have requested that one of our Kanosis business managers assist me to answer any and all questions you have on the structure, business and compensation model. I can and will address anything you want on the Java apps. I must take specific exception to the gross over simplification of the "Coil" product. The developement team in Cyprus has created a new schema that will soon work seamlessly on most every platform that is supported by Sun Micro Systems Java and will allow some rather nice alternatives to MS Windows for example using "open source" Linux based systems. The know-it-all defeatest attitude toward new approaches is not entertaining to those of us who have spent most of lives working towards a business opportunity that addresses the Internet community with the same kind of "viral" marketing that uses the same power of expression that this very forum takes advantage of. I encourage any "on" or "off list" questions, we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. This is a brand new product/ASP-service being distributed in a relatively brand new way for internet based services by honest well intended experienced professionals.

JimSouthworth, welcome to MatrixWatch!

There are many legitimate ways of distributing your beta or final version of your software in a proper channel. You must have heard of www.download.com, www.shareware.com , and I am sure many software experts will point you to more professional site that legitimately promote new "open-source" software product.

Why didn't your "company" (or matrix-based scheme to be more accurate) go through those proper channels as used by all the professional software developer?

Worst of all, how can you allow MMG to promote your compay? MMG is notorious ponzi/pyramid/matrix promoting website that is known among the habitual ponzi players. You should ask MMG to take down the whole discussion of your "genuine" product if you are serious about what you are talking about.

Development team in Cyprus? Can you show us a few pictures of "real" softtware engineers working in real offices in Cyprus? Come on, any professional software company is more transparent than yours. You don't even have information about your development team on your website.

The only thing we see is "sign-up" "sign-up" "get rich" "get-rich".....

Kanosis is a ponzi and it will remain a REAL ponzi scheme if the questions raised on MW are not answered properly.

At MW, we like straight answers. Any gesture of pretending to answer a question will not sell. This is just a kind reminder. :)

[ycchen]

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=45327&view=findpost&p=1167427
Hi lanslub,

Yes, this is a 2-wide forced matrix. You only need TWO personal sign-ups to qualify for payouts.

Everything else is forced downward as spillover into the whole matrix.

I would not be promoting this if it had been around a long time.

Kanosis is very new and still in prelauch with just over 1,600 members.

We can potentially make nice money in matrixes if one gets in early, with a solid company.

We feel we have this with Kanosis! A soild new company with a good plan to sweep the Internet.

If you would like to join, please send me an email to coilware@kanosis.com

Then I can give you specific instructions, Thank you.

The sooner you get in, the faster you get to No. 1 postion. Prospects are contacting me by email to join, so first to join, first to be placed on the list. As usual, an unknown promoter: "flowmaster"(no sure what is his/her role in the business structure) is heavily promoting Kanosis pyramid-matrix scam on MMG.

With 1600 members in the "prelaunch", I am sure many "front-row seat" players will get paid in less than 24 hours as usual. Then, you will see "get paid" threads flooding the whole MMG thread. Then, "winners" (those in front row seat) giving advice to newbies on how to donate weekly to keep the money flowing into "their" pockets! :mad:


After 5 months, it starts to stop paying.... and 8 months later ... dead. :shake:

Kanosis is a very typical pyramid-matrix scam. MatrixWatch will continue to monitor the development of this scam (I am sure it will take off like IT4US.net despite our repeated warnings). We will have our "consumer movement" ready when it crash few months later (3-8 months, usually).

NOTE: MW warning on IT4US.net ponzi scam before it got off the ground.
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1948&page=1&highlight=it4us.net

If you are not insider (like flowmaster), if you are not skillful in ponzi game (READ: stealing others money with no moral baggage), don't play! You will most likely to get burn... badly!

If you are new to matrix-pyramid-ponzi based scam promoted on MMG, see some examples below:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2303
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1709
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2148

[Arzel]

Before I associated myself with this organization I ran it all by my lawyer and Law Enforcement friends.... this is not a pyramid scheme, but we do have members in Egypt :-). It is a business that is using the MLM business model to distribute a bunch of new Java based web applications and network centric services. The applications allow the users to create communities of interest and operate their businesses or organizations efficiently and effectively. To make this work requires a world-wide network infrastructure with servers planned in no less than 6 strategic locations selected because of their availability to the internet traffic patterns. The first is located in London and I am building a site in the US in Northern Virginia now near the Fiber POP at AOL. The next site will be either in the far east or down-under, etc. I joined their organization about a month ago after actually being aware of and having tested some aspects of the applications specifically designed for time accounting for law firms for over the last two years.

I have requested that one of our Kanosis business managers assist me to answer any and all questions you have on the structure, business and compensation model. I can and will address anything you want on the Java apps. I must take specific exception to the gross over simplification of the "Coil" product. The developement team in Cyprus has created a new schema that will soon work seamlessly on most every platform that is supported by Sun Micro Systems Java and will allow some rather nice alternatives to MS Windows for example using "open source" Linux based systems. The know-it-all defeatest attitude toward new approaches is not entertaining to those of us who have spent most of lives working towards a business opportunity that addresses the Internet community with the same kind of "viral" marketing that uses the same power of expression that this very forum takes advantage of. I encourage any "on" or "off list" questions, we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. This is a brand new product/ASP-service being distributed in a relatively brand new way for internet based services by honest well intended experienced professionals.

You are correct about one thing. I don't think it is a pryamid, however it is a matrix, which is by definition a ponzi. I don't think that is any better. But go ahead and prove us wrong about labeling this as a scam.

[ycchen]

Kanosis scam is so predictable. Promoters are setting up their own site to promote the scam already.

http://www.join-kanosis.com/Kanosis_Opportunity.html

There are so much hypes in the promotion :shake:
The Bottom Line

The pedigree of the people running Kanosis looks very strong, and the power of network marketing "focused" in the forced matrix makes Kanosis very compelling. The question of subscribing to Kanosis now versus waiting for the public launch of COIL® is a risk-reward question. If only 10% of the projected subscriptions occur this year (1MM members), we will still be using a quality service and enjoying significant income for little risk. It is all contingent on the capabilities of COIL®, power of network "word of mouth," power of internet marketing and the global reach.

For the cost of $59 that represents one nice family meal out at a chain restaurant, each of us has the opportunity to take a calculated risk that substantial reward is available for early entrants into Kanosis. If I subscribe to Kanosis for say a year and it doesn't work, I cancel the credit card payment and consider that I have risked $279. Some may take a “wait and see” attitude which is perfectly fine. From my perspective I will dread facing some of my contacts later that I did not tell about this if and when it takes off worldwide to become the next Google®. For myself and members of my family, we have concluded that the early reward is worth the minimal risk.

I thought YMMSS is the next google?! :D No?? Or may be next eBay?? .... next Microsoft?! .... :shake:

[JimSouthworth]

Let me try to respond to as many of your concerns as I am qualified to address, I'm not doging anything, it's just not "my job" or my specific expertise to answer your business model questions. However, you seem to be making some prejudiced assumptions just because this is a MLM structure.

You wrote:
There are many legitimate ways of distributing your beta or final version of your software in a proper channel. You must have heard of www.download.com, www.shareware.com , and I am sure many software experts will point you to more professional site that legitimately promote new "open-source" software product.

Why didn't your "company" (or matrix-based scheme to be more accurate) go through those proper channels as used by all the professional software developer?

Basic question, the "Coil" software has already many man-years of investment and development in it. This is not "share-ware" it is a proprietary licensed software system that will also be sold stand-alone eventually, but initially it is only being offered in conjunction with the server based services as a true ASP business. It has been developed on the Java "web-start" platform and can run on any system that supports that platform. The "Coil" package is not and is not ever expected to be "Open Source" itself even though it will run on Java under Linux as well. The software really needs broad-band connections because of the size of the client code alone, not to mention the encrypted data base and workspace area that are kept on-line for the user so he can access it from any where he wishes. This takes the concept of "Web-Mail" to the next logical level of a complete internet accessable workspace.

Development team in Cyprus? Can you show us a few pictures of "real" softtware engineers working in real offices in Cyprus? Come on, any professional software company is more transparent than yours. You don't even have information about your development team on your website.

I will ask the VP of Development and the architech of "Coil" to take the picture you requested. He will be amused as I'm sure the rest of the 14 members of the team will be as well..... high quality programming talent is readily available in Cyprus because of the large number of multi-national corporations and banks that have headquartered there due to the unusual EU VAT tax advantages. As for information on the team, you will notice if you take the time to Google the job openings that have been advertised over the last year as the core team was supplimented and prepared for the go-to-market roll out.

Worst of all, how can you allow MMG to promote your compay? MMG is notorious ponzi/pyramid/matrix promoting website that is known among the habitual ponzi players. You should ask MMG to take down the whole discussion of your "genuine" product if you are serious about what you are talking about.

I will take this suggestion specifically to the CEO who maintains offices for the company both in Cyprus and California. You may have noticed that most true ASP style business on the internet have succeeded primarily because of the massive if not explosive increases in users that can be addressed via the Internet. Why can't a MLM work on the Internet when the product is a credible service with real recurring revenue and user accepted value ??? Are Amway, Mary Kay Cosmetics, and many other credible businesses a scam because they use a MLM structure??? If you figured out who I am and the level of security and even international standards for DSL and other technologies that I have supported all over the world I would hope that you would at least keep an open mind and keep your "rubber-stamp" in the drawer for the time being.... Doing business at the speed of the Internet is going to be a big enough challenge for me and my infrastructure deployment team.

[ycchen]

This scheme is a 100% matrix scam. MMG is building the pyramid even before it lanuch! it doesn't really matter what it sells, those MMG members at the top of the pyramid will promote and protect this scam at all cost.

That's why KANOSIS will NEVER leave MMG. So, JimSouthworth, you can save your effort in persuading the CEO to close the thread at MMG.

If you do a "godaddy" domain check, you got the following result. Note: I deliberatedly obmit some information with "xxxxx". Anyone can get full information from godaddy.com. Registrant:
Axiasoft Limited

xxx Makarios Ave III
Latsia, Nicosia 2223
Cyprus

Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: KANOSIS.COM
Created on: 16-Nov-05
Expires on: 16-Nov-07
Last Updated on: 25-Nov-05

Administrative Contact:
Van xxxxx, Stephen axiasoft@xxxxxx.com.cy
Axiasoft Limited
xxxx

Okay. It is registed by a "software company" called "Axiasoft limited" in Cypus.

Hmm.... why can't I find this company oneline? :rolleyes:

Is it "http://www.axiasoft.com/" ..... I guess not.

Is it http://www.axiasoft.com.cy ... nope.

Okay. let's do some more search. Walla! You find "Axiasoft ltd" listed in the "Cypus Comptuer Society" with different owner's name, address and phone number!

http://www.ccs.org.cy/companies.php?order=true

axiasoft ltd
Category: IT (Software)

XXXnnis antoniou
management
Phone: 99 540XXX
Fax: 22424XXX

xxx arch. bishop makarios avenue, 1st floor
office 101 Latsia
2220 nicosia , Cyprus Even the zipcode are different 2220 vs. 2223!

What more can you find from this "parent company -- Axiasoft limited" at Cyprus that sells this wonderful software that is two year ahead of Microsoft :rolleyes:, and on its way to become the next google :rolleyes: ? Virtually NOTHING about this parent company (axiasoft) of Kanosis on the internet, unfortunately! :head:

By the way, there is a audio presentation on Kanosis. I wonder why don't they write it down in words instead of using audio recording?! Wait! It is a common practices by all scam operator to use human voice to sound more authentic...:shake:

The audio presentation claim that the COIL software has been very popular in the corporate circle.... sure. :rolleyes: If that is the case, may I know which fortune 500 corporates actually use COIL? Give us a name (any name) of the company that use the infamous COIL, so we can contact their IT manager to verify? If it is so popular, anyone from the Axiasoft or Kanosis should be able to list at least 10 companies using COIL, right? :cool:

For MWers who is following this thread, STAY AWAY! This is the worst kind of pyramid-matrix that begin to build its pyramid struture in the pre-launch period! A new innovative way of locking the front-row seat people in the to pyramid....very smart! :nono:

[ycchen]

Okay. Few easy questions for the owner, manager, insider and promoter of Kanosis.

1. Where is "Kanosis limited" or "Kanosis ltd" registered?

Can you kindly put an "about us" on your kanosis.com homepage with the biography and experience of your CEO, General manager, COO, CFO, UFO...etc? It would be very embarassing to have this basic information missing in a "next microsoft" or "next google"? A few pictures of the company with desk, chair and company logo at the reception desk will be helpful. :)

2. What is the relation between "Kanosis ltd" and "axiasoft ltd" in Cyprus?

Does the manager -- ioannis antoniou -- of axiasoft ltd in Cyprus knows about COIL product? Is this person responsible for the development this "very popular" COIL software?

For information about "axiasoft ltd", go here: http://www.ccs.org.cy/companies.php?order=true

[JimSouthworth]

Just maybe you might have such a predisposition to finding somthing that isn't there this time..... with the knowledge of the Internet that the key people involved have, do you really think we would keep this completely in the clear and completely open if it wasn't completely on the up and up ??? Axiasoft limited is the original software developer that has licensed the Coil applications to Kanosis to deploy as an ASP model along with products from several other web application companies... what is so unusual about this??? Kanosis buys the exclusive rights and license to the software exactly as stated.... Kanosis is a stand alone corporation selling a service using a MLM business model....

No insult intended, just my opinion, I believe you suffer from the same issues some of my closest friends in senior law enforcement have to watch for and catch themselves doing every so often..... they are so sure that they see something that looks like something that has been so mis-used by others in the past that there is no possible way that honest reasonable people could possibly be completely honest and ethical, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE and this service is..... If I didn't care about re-calibrating you on this, I would give up at this point and just write you guys off as over zealous paranoids, except that you aren't paranoid, because there are other people out there doing bad things.... BUT this is not one of them......

What would it take to get you to stop stereo typing this and be realistic that there may actually be a justifiable reason to have a rapidly deploying application so its business model can support the required expensive infrastructure. Why have almost 99 out of 100 ASP business models failed in the last 5 years ??? In the world of the Internet, you can't make money off of transport when it keeps dropping like a rock. You can't make money off basic services because they commoditize faster than you can break even AND the only real money is in "Value-added Services". Also, everybody knows you can't generate revenue fast enough to break even with the standard "take-up" rate and sell cycle for legacy applications deployment. It takes an explosive business model to survive the ramp-up with sufficient revenue... eBay, eTrade, Amazon.com, Google, etc., etc..... unless your business has a real bricks and mortar distribution model to fall back on, 99 out of 100 international business models have failed consistently.... MLM avoids that and a controlled MLM like Kanosis has that is done by reference further enhances that risk-avoidence.... and before you start quoting Shakespear on me "Me thinks thou protests too much".... ask your self what we have to gain even having this debate ??? the controlled MLM model works and is fair the way we have developed it. Mary Kay and Avon use it very effectively and are even somewhat less selective than we are being.

OBTW, animation, movies, flash, and even voice recordings are very very effective training aids.... and I doubt you can find anything that has been said in a recording that hasn't been documented in writing somewhere on the public areas of the web site. If you do, we will fix that also.

Pardon my typing and grammar, its late......

[JimSouthworth]

Let me also try to answer some of your easy questions as well before I crash for the evening....

1. Kanosis is presently registered in Cyprus and several other countries as is needed for the legal, banking, and operational reasons that a real international company has. I can tell you that also includes our US HQ in California.... the exact addresses of our offices are being updated as we have this correspondence as we move into bigger offices to handle our employee build-up as we double in size to keep up with customer service and operations growth alone, not counting accounting, marketing, legal and technology of course.

Everyone you have found a name associated with Kanosis or Axiasoft ltd are real people who are either direct employees of one or the other and board members of the corporation with full legal responsibility and fully involved with not only "Coil" but also some other applications that round out first our consumer software suite and soon our business user versions as well. I know for a fact that the new web site that is being readied for the formal "coming-out" announcement will include names and Bio's on all the officers as well as the key employees..... I couldn't hide if I wanted to and I don't want to, so I'm here now along with the names you found with Whois and our internet domain registration.... all real credible persons.... the management team averages over 30 years experience in each of their appropriate fields.

As I said earlier, I have supplied my email to your registration process and with any correspondence I will supply full contact info for myself and my deployment team as needed. Keep asking questions PLEASE, it will help us polish up the content in our Q & A for the new web site... :-)

[Webwatch]

Hello Mr Southworth,
(whether this is your real name or not is unimportant at the moment and I wont insult you by trying to cast aspertions on your persona)

Firstly let me commend you on how well you put your points across although it is hard work reading through them.
I only have one question. Does Kanosis rely on a Pyramid Selling technique to attract new customers. A Yes or No answer will suffice.

This seems to be the main bone of contention and a good starting point.

[ycchen]

Just maybe you might have such a predisposition to finding somthing that isn't there this time..... with the knowledge of the Internet that the key people involved have, do you really think we would keep this completely in the clear and completely open if it wasn't completely on the up and up ??? Axiasoft limited is the original software developer that has licensed the Coil applications to Kanosis to deploy as an ASP model along with products from several other web application companies... what is so unusual about this??? Kanosis buys the exclusive rights and license to the software exactly as stated.... Kanosis is a stand alone corporation selling a service using a MLM business model.... If Kanosis is a stand alone busisness, why is it registed with the software company -- axiasoft limtied -- that liscenced coil software to your company? It makes very little sense. Also, I cannot find any information of Kanosis's HQ in California. Please list that crucial information on your company frontpage. Could you kindly tell us your "role" in this next google business?

Also, could you introduce us to the main software developer of coil at axiasoft, or invite him/her to our forum to discuss the merit of his invention , i.e. coil?
No insult intended, just my opinion, I believe you suffer from the same issues some of my closest friends in senior law enforcement have to watch for and catch themselves doing every so often..... they are so sure that they see something that looks like something that has been so mis-used by others in the past that there is no possible way that honest reasonable people could possibly be completely honest and ethical, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE and this service is..... If I didn't care about re-calibrating you on this, I would give up at this point and just write you guys off as over zealous paranoids, except that you aren't paranoid, because there are other people out there doing bad things.... BUT this is not one of them...... we are only paranoid with pyramid/ponzi-based scheme promoted crazily at MMG -- the notorious ponzi play ground. No serious business will want to associate with MMG.
What would it take to get you to stop stereo typing this and be realistic that there may actually be a justifiable reason to have a rapidly deploying application so its business model can support the required expensive infrastructure. Why have almost 99 out of 100 ASP business models failed in the last 5 years ??? In the world of the Internet, you can't make money off of transport when it keeps dropping like a rock. You can't make money off basic services because they commoditize faster than you can break even AND the only real money is in "Value-added Services". Also, everybody knows you can't generate revenue fast enough to break even with the standard "take-up" rate and sell cycle for legacy applications deployment. It takes an explosive business model to survive the ramp-up with sufficient revenue... eBay, eTrade, Amazon.com, Google, etc., etc..... unless your business has a real bricks and mortar distribution model to fall back on, 99 out of 100 international business models have failed consistently.... I am not sure what are you saying here. Are you implying that all eBay, eTrade, Amazon.com, Google ..etc relies on pyramid-based structure to take off? If so, please stop insult them. If not, please kindly explain to me your purpose of bring out those companies.
MLM avoids that and a controlled MLM like Kanosis has that is done by reference further enhances that risk-avoidence.... and before you start quoting Shakespear on me "Me thinks thou protests too much".... ask your self what we have to gain even having this debate ??? the controlled MLM model works and is fair the way we have developed it. Mary Kay and Avon use it very effectively and are even somewhat less selective than we are being. fair??!!! :eek: Could you enlighten us with who "flowmaster" is in kanosis? Who ask him to build the pyramid-structure at moneymakergroup.com?

How fair is "flowmaster" statement below at MMG. Please comment. We can potentially make nice money in matrixes if one gets in early, with a solid company.
.......
The sooner you get in, the faster you get to No. 1 postion. Prospects are contacting me by email to join, so first to join, first to be placed on the list.

OBTW, animation, movies, flash, and even voice recordings are very very effective training aids.... and I doubt you can find anything that has been said in a recording that hasn't been documented in writing somewhere on the public areas of the web site. If you do, we will fix that also. A serious software company will put those important statments (found in the audio recordings) on their company website, and not somewhere on the internet!
Pardon my typing and grammar, its late......

[JNRAY]

Good Job Mr. Southworth!!!!!!! Bravo!!!

[JimSouthworth]

To answer your question with a one word answer isn't either fair or honest. Yes, MLM is a factor in expediting the growth of the customer base to make the business model work, but the answer is also "No, Not Alone" in that the unique structure and features that have been designed into the entire Kanosis product offering are designed to offer unique stand alone value to the customer base. A good example of this is the integrated professional services time accounting system which was designed by a "geek" Lawyer to fix the mis-use of time accounting both over and under stating the actual time that is spent on a clients business because most systems are not user friendly and intuitive enough. Also there are a whole bunch of similar features and functions designed "in" and in some cases "built in" to the Kanosis services with server hardware to facilitate operations as typically found in "work groups".

The answer to your first implied question is that I used my real name... I do not believe in using pseudonyms when corporate accountability is involved. It is of course for this and the many other reasons that absolute end-point identification has been designed into the IPv6 addressing schema which is now being implemented internationally across the entire Internet. With an identity and point of responsibility IPv6 is designed to not only expand IP addresses, but to also eliminate or suppress Spam and track virus sources, not to mention eliminating identity fraud. What that also implies is that my work over the last ten years internationally working with “new stuff” in the standards bodies and the internet security community is something I’m proud of and you will find easily if you “Google” me or have attended any of the many conferences or meetings that I have been asked to speak at.

[ycchen]

Let me also try to answer some of your easy questions as well before I crash for the evening....

1. Kanosis is presently registered in Cyprus and several other countries as is needed for the legal, banking, and operational reasons that a real international company has. I can tell you that also includes our US HQ in California.... [/b]the exact addresses of our offices are being updated [/b]as we have this correspondence as we move into bigger offices to handle our employee build-up as we double in size to keep up with customer service and operations growth alone, not counting accounting, marketing, legal and technology of course. Jim, no offence, but you sound too much like a scam operator.

1) what other countries are you talking about?
2) may be you can give us the old address of Kanosis? So, it is a registered company in California, right? Do you want us to look for its registration information, or you want to provide here? Or it is in the registration or ??? process? Please be specific about what you want to say.
Everyone you have found a name associated with Kanosis or Axiasoft ltd are real people who are either direct employees of one or the other and board members of the corporation with full legal responsibility and fully involved with not only "Coil" but also some other[/d] applications that round out first our consumer software suite and [b]soon our business user versions as well. excuse me, you sound like a ponzi operator again. Never specific about ANYTHING. Could you tell me the name of "some other" application? Can you tell us ONE corporate that use COIL business suite since your audio recording claim that COIL is already very popular in the business world. Just name one company so we can get some feedback from the IT manager of that company as a testimonial of how great Coil is.

Or you might want to consider asking all your corporate clients to put their testimonials on your frontpage, so serious software user can email those people for verification.
I know for a fact that the new web site that is being readied for the formal "coming-out" announcement will include names and Bio's on all the officers as well as the key employees..... I couldn't hide if I wanted to and I don't want to, so I'm here now along with the names you found with Whois and our internet domain registration.... all real credible persons.... the management team averages over 30 years experience in each of their appropriate fields. Again, you sound very much like all the ponzi operators we have been dealing with for the past 2 years. You really need to do better than that. So, are you saying that you have 30 years of experience working in "appropriate fields"? Please list your expertises, or ANYONE who has 30 years expertise in "appropriate fields".
As I said earlier, I have supplied my email to your registration process and with any correspondence I will supply full contact info for myself and my deployment team as needed. Keep asking questions PLEASE, it will help us polish up the content in our Q & A for the new web site... :-) Yes, you have email me your contact information, thanks. But that prove absolutely NOTHING, sorry. All the BIGGEST scam operators have real identity, because that is a must. So, you really need to do better than that.

No offence. We are a anti-ponzi watchdog, so we are very harsh on suspected ponzi operators. Until you really give us real and solid answers, our review of your "business" is still a scam.

[ycchen]

To answer your question with a one word answer isn't either fair or honest. Yes, MLM is a factor in expediting the growth of the customer base to make the business model work, but the answer is also "No, Not Alone" in that the unique structure and features that have been designed into the entire Kanosis product offering are designed to offer unique stand alone value to the customer base. We are talking about if Kanosis is a stand alone company that has no relation with Axiasoft. Don't divert the attention to the "stand alone software"!

My question again is: Please explain why Kanosis website is registered by axiasoft?
A good example of this is the integrated professional services time accounting system which was designed by a "geek" Lawyer to fix the mis-use of time accounting both over and under stating the actual time that is spent on a clients business because most systems are not user friendly and intuitive enough. Also there are a whole bunch of similar features and functions designed "in" and in some cases "built in" to the Kanosis services with server hardware to facilitate operations as typically found in "work groups". Good try, Jim. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

The answer to your first implied question is that I used my real name... I do not believe in using pseudonyms when corporate accountability is involved. my imply question? lol..... nobody cares about your personal identity.
It is of course for this and the many other reasons that absolute end-point identification has been designed into the IPv6 addressing schema which is now being implemented internationally across the entire Internet. With an identity and point of responsibility IPv6 is designed to not only expand IP addresses, but to also eliminate or suppress Spam and track virus sources, not to mention eliminating identity fraud. What that also implies is that my work over the last ten years internationally working with “new stuff” in the standards bodies and the internet security community is something I’m proud of and you will find easily if you “Google” me or have attended any of the many conferences or meetings that I have been asked to speak at. Jim, you are not answering any of my questions. You really need to do better the steorotypical pyramid/ponzi operators on MMG.

[ycchen]

I think Jim Southworth knows exactly what we are talking about here. He is on the advisory board of the following company.
http://www.occamnetworks.com/company/directors_and_advisors/

The level of transparency of kanosis "company" (I prefer scheme) should be at least par with the occamnetworks!

We still do not know Jim's role in Kanosis. Advisor or owner or consultant?? I think a smart guy like Jim will not want to associate himself directly with a pyramid-based Kanosis that is based in Cypus!!! :eek: with an unknown headquarter in California? :crazy:

[Webwatch]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for attempting to answer my question.
I did think an MLM based system is where there is a product i.e. Goji juice Herbalife etc (some real classics).
But if coil is the only product at $22.00 per month it does seem a bit on the expensive side, especially if you have to renew it every month and never really own it.

Could you let us know the new launch date also as Feb 15th was mentioned but has now gone to March 15th.

Also if you have 2000+ members already surely Ive missed the boat on this one, as any new members funds will be used to fund those further up the chain (Pyramid).

[Webwatch]

On a quick side note,
Jim you mentioned your team of professional developers would these be the freelancers that where asked to quote on Coil's development. as far back as January.
http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/38593.html

[JimSouthworth]

Ycchen,
Yes, I have served and presently serve on many of both advisory boards as well as actual main boards of both public companies and private firms alike, but in this case, my role is that of an employee and senior infrastructure architect. I have been recruited to help build the robust, but scaleable infrastructure of Kanosis, as well as to bring my international technical background to the design process for full launch.

As far as for the relationship between Axiasoft and Kanosis, again I’m sorry I guess I wasn’t clear enough the first time… Axiasoft developed the software, two of the founders of Kanosis are also principals of Axiasoft, but Kanosis as a completely separate corporation brings a whole different management team and group of internationally experienced board members that can address the magnitude and growth potential of the Kanosis venture. Axiasoft only licenses the “Coil” product to Kanosis. There are other software licenses and products already integrated into the Kanosis offering and several others are being added to add features in the area of VoIP, conferencing, and other group-ware oriented features/functions.

You, yourself, pointed out that the company is still pre-launch (not for much longer) and all the corporate fillings and additional office leases are now in place or being finalized, but that is our operational business to resolve. The corporate required contacts are all there with the banks, government entities, and the vendors who are already supplying goods and services to Kanosis. The information you demand will be fully available by formal launch with a full disclosure of the management team and senior staff. Actually only yesterday another of our senior team formally accepted his offer, even though he has been working as a consultant for over a month. Any confusion you may have with ownership can easily be resolved by a brief conversation with our CEO (who does very much exist) at his new California offices in the LA area. I'm working on arranging that for you now. Kanosis is a Cyprus HQ company with regional offices around the world as is needed to handle the 24/7 operations and regulatory needs. As for transparency of the corporate veil, Occam Networks is a publicly held US corporation and as such has SEC regulations to comply with. Several of the companies I also serve as an officer/advisor of also have public disclosure requirements which I wholly comply with. I do a lot of research and get a lot of questions answered before I associate my self and the thirty-five years of experience I have in this field with any company I work for.

As for not answering ANY of your questions, that is grossly unfair and completely inaccurate as is obvious to anyone who have been attempting to read this exchange. If you look at your own time stamps you will see I haven’t even had time to involve some of the other management team you have requested contact with. At least cut me some slack, there is quite a time zone difference between this conversation and others in our team that are better to respond to some of your inquiries than I am.

[JimSouthworth]

Webwatch,
Let me address both of your posts and add something of my own…..

The Kanosis product is a service bundle, it is specifically not only a software license…. Bought separately the cost per seat would be many times that of purchasing the “Coil” product license only. It includes all the world-wide servers and NAS arrays as well as the server-side Internet bandwidth to access these services. So actually $22/month is quite reasonable when you will see all that is included. This is a basic difference between previous pyramid schemes and a legal properly constructed ASP service offering that has substantial recurring revenue to sustain its operations indefinitely.

As for the launch date moving, we have chosen to do it right. This includes making sure adequate customer service and capacity is fully operational to handle the projected surge in usage we anticipate. Even some of our training materials won’t be available for another week due to normal business delays.

The answer to the question about free-lancers is that it is a normal way a company in its early stages of product development meets its initial software personnel needs. It also serves as a great way to recruit and allowed us to “Try before you Buy” the talent we needed back as much as a year ago as you point out. The key members of the present team have been in place now for several months working closely together.

Now since you guys (assuming you are male) find it necessary to only discuss your opinions behind the veil of Internet anonymity and feel free to shout widely at subjects that probably you have never had first hand experience with in the name of pure public protection, I find it interesting that I have fully disclosed my identity, experience, and credentials and expect that with in a few days our whole team will be public information. And you say we are not to be trusted by your speculation and opinion only…. Who the hell made you guys experts??? Where are your credentials and degrees in this subject matter??? Have any of you chosen to put your personal reputations and limited wealth at stake to make a new business opportunity grow??? Now that said, and my frustrations vented, I respect the job you do, but don’t get so drunk on the intoxication of being able to shoot irresponsibly at honest entrepreneurs who might just have a fair and reasonable business model. If you really want work on get rich quick schemes start criticizing the options market or the stock-market day-traders who spend many times what we are expecting of the members of Kanosis. Kanosis members will be paying for a service they will actually be able to use besides a potential source of income as well. Don’t wash us with the same rag that has been used to wipe up the dirt from others who haven’t disclosed everything we do and have and will in a timely manner…..

[Arzel]

Jim,

You have to understand that your (Kanosis) association with the MMG forum and the use of a matrix style promotion scheme is what sets up huge red flags. The forced matrix structure has proven time and time again that a very large percentage of people involved simply will not benefit from the scheme. The addition of the pre-launch aspect only further increases the likelihood of scam.

If Coil is such a great product then why not just sell (licience) it outright, a great product should be able to sell on its own merits and not require a scheme such as this to reach the market.

Perhaps you are simply unaware of how the matrix model works in reality.

In my research you seem to have done quite a bit of moving around on projects, not surprising if you list yourself as an independent consultant, so perhaps you have been pulled into something you don't fully understand.

You must understand that many of us here have seen and identified scam after scam based either completely of loosely off the matrix model over a period of 3 plus years.

I have also done some research on this Coil software and have been unable to really find out that much about it. The Kanosis website isn't of much help either, perhaps you could provide a more detailed explanation of what it is, and what it does, and how it compares to existing technology on the internet.

Finally, an analysis of the Kanosis "What is Kanosis" page.

A word from the Kanosis team:

Knosis (greek for knowledge)
Kinisis (greek for movement/motion)
Enosis (greek for joining together)
Right now there are 907,309,130 computers connected to the internet around the world (14% of the world population) and growing. Initiatives are underway around the world to connect more and more people and to bridge the digital divide (UN Initiative to Connect the World).

Implication: There are millions of people in the world are ready to take advantage of internet connection, and the UN is directing this initiative

The power of this worldwide network remains largely untapped. Microsoft, with control of almost every computer desktop, has failed to allow people even a fraction of the benefit that people could enjoy by being connected to a global network. They protect their market position at the expense of the consumer, and pursue with a vengeance any company that threatens the status quo.

Implication: Big companies continue to take advantage of the average person

They have left people starving for more, as evidenced by the massive success of google, Skype and eBay. Yet even these successful companies are now controlled by corporate investors who are primarily interested in economic gain, and this reality will eventually choke the life out of their innovation and sense of community.

Implication: We are going to be like Google, Skype, and eBay, without the greedy corporate investors

You are hereby invited to change this, and to help unleash the true power of a connected world community. We will do our part by providing you with amazing new software technology and with a business model that shares the economic benefit with each and every participant.

Implication: This is exciting and you will be on the ground floor

Together, we can change the world.



The "What is Kanosis" does not tell you anything about Kanosis, other than how the word was formed. What is does do is try to sublimly disconnect itself from the greedy large corporation environment and try to give this feeling that this will be as huge as Google, and some other well known internet companies. This is a tactic that has been used by many scams we encounter (YMMSS, SP etc..).

Maybe Kanosis is legit, but the evidence points otherwise at this point.

[Arzel]

Jim,

I have BS degrees in Business Management, and Statistic. I will have a MS degree in Industiral Engineering (Operations Research/Decision Science) in a few months. I have worked in Medicare Fraud, and developed algorithyms to help identify fraud. For the past ten years I have done statistical analysis and programming for a large company. I have also done a great deal of risk analysis and risk perception.

If not for the nature of some of the people we expose I would be more willing to reveal my actual name.

[concerned]

Let me try to respond to as many of your concerns as I am qualified to address, I'm not doging anything, it's just not "my job" or my specific expertise to answer your business model questions.

Maybe we should start here. What is your job there? Maybe that would help us understand why you are not qualified to answer some questions.

However, you seem to be making some prejudiced assumptions just because this is a MLM structure.

That's fine, but can anyone really find an MLM company with the kind of success as Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, Macromedia, etc? If your software is good, why jinx it by using a shady advertising vehicle.

Basic question, the "Coil" software has already many man-years of investment and development in it. This is not "share-ware" it is a proprietary licensed software system that will also be sold stand-alone eventually, but initially it is only being offered in conjunction with the server based services as a true ASP business. It has been developed on the Java "web-start" platform and can run on any system that supports that platform. The "Coil" package is not and is not ever expected to be "Open Source" itself even though it will run on Java under Linux as well. The software really needs broad-band connections because of the size of the client code alone, not to mention the encrypted data base and workspace area that are kept on-line for the user so he can access it from any where he wishes. This takes the concept of "Web-Mail" to the next logical level of a complete internet accessable workspace.

This is all fine, but the question was why you chose the advertising method. This does not answer that specific question.

Development team in Cyprus? Can you show us a few pictures of "real" softtware engineers working in real offices in Cyprus? Come on, any professional software company is more transparent than yours. You don't even have information about your development team on your website.

I will ask the VP of Development and the architech of "Coil" to take the picture you requested. He will be amused as I'm sure the rest of the 14 members of the team will be as well..... high quality programming talent is readily available in Cyprus because of the large number of multi-national corporations and banks that have headquartered there due to the unusual EU VAT tax advantages. As for information on the team, you will notice if you take the time to Google the job openings that have been advertised over the last year as the core team was supplimented and prepared for the go-to-market roll out.

I have to admit, that asking for pictures was a strange request. (sorry ycchen). That being said, let's ask for something more common, and something EVERY real company has. Can you send us your annual report?

[uk2go]

As Arzel and Ychen are much better at detecting potential scams it is unlikely that anyone else can come up with better questioning. I personally am not always as sceptical as they themselves are, and like to trust people - this can on occasion get me into trouble!

I just have one or two questions for Mr Southworth;


(1) What actually IS Kanosis? On the website Kanosis is advertised as the online community, with a separate COIL software product. However, we all seem to be describing Kanosis as the software itself - yourself included.

(2) Can you join the Kanosis community for $15.00 per year WITHOUT subscribing to the COIL software package? The frontpage of the website suggests you can, but the payments section states otherwise.


I would be grateful if you could clear up these misunderstandings so that we all know what we are discussing.....

[Webwatch]

Hi Jim,
Thanks for answering my questions.
One small matter, when I mentioned Freelancer's the date on the link was January of this year (The "as far back as January" bit. was a small attempt at sarcasum).

Just one final question-when you where approached to set up Kanosis did you not have any anxiety's about the MLM (Pyramid) style marketing stratergy.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on this subject-only time will tell which one of us is correct. Unlike you I will not vent my frustrations on this thread as we are just having a question and answer session and please forgive me for any distress caused.

I will not be investing in your scheme but thanks again for answering my questions.

[concerned]

Oh, by the way Jim, the "prelaunch" phase is another indicator of a bad ponzi. If the product is already completed, there is no reason to "prelaunch" it. Just start selling it. If it is not complete, then just set up some advertisments saying that it will be ready for purchase on XXX date.

[JimSouthworth]

Just a quick note, I haven't gone away, just offline for some other responsibilities for several hours or more.... I have asked subject matter experts to post here on the architecture of "Coil" and what makes it special so you too can appreciate what we think we have and why it makes for a sustaining services model... also someone to address your concerns about the activities on MMG which I did not know about until the first posts you guys did about Kanosis, and last, someone to talk the corporate model in such a way as to not compromise our "special sauce" in our business model that both differentiates us and at the same time answer your "hot buttons" on scam etc. Thanks in advance for your patience.... after all we are pre-launch. :)

[ycchen]

We appreciate you to continue to stay in this "harsh" environment as we are consumer right group that spends many hours monitoring some large (and small) matrix-based ponzi/pyramid on the internet.

It is our duty to put pressure on the "suspect" to get solid answer and not ... we will... soon... in preparation.... trust us.... it will knock your sock off ... more expert .... be patient ... a new system..... blah blah blah..... These are all signs of a scam. May be you are not familiar with the ponzi operator language, but the way you address questions sound very familiar to us, no offense.

Since you are basically a technical people, so I guess you might not be the one that handling the business side of Kanosis, righ? So it will be great if you could invite your CEO or COO to come to answer some of the business model questions addressed on this thread by many skeptics. Thanks.

No offense, so far, your responses (no matter how sincere it sounds) still pretty much put Kanosis in the scam category. Someone from Kanosis needs to give us solid answer in the present tense (not promises and hypes in the future tense) before we can take Kanosis out of the scam category. As a pyramid-matrix scheme, it will definitely grow very fast when it launch, no doubt. For us, super fast growth in the first 3 months is not a sign of legitimacy. In contrast, that is exactly the sign of its decline after it runs out of donors in usually less than a year. So, if anyone want us to "wait" until it launch to prove that it is legitimate, we can tell you that we will not be convinced! Period.

Please kindly address the following questions and also questions by other MW skeptics. Thanks.

1) Kanosis is still promoting and building its pyramid structure through a notorious ponzi-platform -- moneymakergroup and you did not comment on this, why? Also, who is "flowmaster" at MMG? He is dragging the reputation of kanosis to the earth with his obvious effort in the pyramid building.

2) Why we cannot find any information on Axiasoft (the company that liscence Coil product to Kanosis)? Please give us the webssie of Axiasoft in Cyprus. It is very unusual a software company that produce product 3 years ahead of Microsoft has not webpage ...:nono:.

3) The Kanosis business structure is complete in a blackbox. It is really unusual for a soon to become next google company to have nothing on its business structure. Is steve really the CEO or someone else, or you are still in the process of deciding who want to be the CEO?

4) Let us know the addresses of ALL the Kanosis HQ and branches in this planet. Also, a real registration record will be useful too. I cannot find registration record of Kanosis in both Cyprus and California.

4) Someone at MMG clains that Coil is used by NASA :eek: and popular among the business circle (the 'hype' I heard from the audio-recording). Please show some evidence of those claims. If it is a wrong claim on MMG (a ponzi platform), please make an effort to correct those big claim (or we call lies at MatrixWatch). We are not very interest in getting a technical expert in telling the "potential" of coil to our human being in the "future", we want hard evidence that it has been used by NASA and big corporation.

5) Are you still associate with Concentric networks? They use the legitimate affiliate too but not in a pyramid style! Why do you change Kanosis to an obvious pyramid model? As a consultant, you know very well that the incentive of the pyramid is not the product but the money game. So, as CTO, you should be proud of your product and try to protect the reputation of your product and not let it destroys by the pyramid/ponzi game. May be you should not work with those people from the notorious herbalife which ruin so many families! :(

Need to run, and will ask more questions later. We do appreciate your stay in this forum and keep the dialogue going. Thanks. :)

ADD:

6) Jim, I have to say that you have a very impressive resume with 34 years of experience! I assume that you will play a crucial role as CTO (or COO?) at Kanosis, right? Could you kindly show us the website of the three companies that you setup or associate with in the last 5 years. I have hard time finding more information about them on the website. Thanks. You don't have to do that if you are not the "critical" person in charge of this shaky startup -- Kanosis. With your experience, you have to admit that Kanosis is a very shaky business with a pyramid model running far ahead of its substantial fundation. :(

Here are the three latest companies on your impressive resume. We like to see the homepage of these website to understand your expertises and your potential contribution to Kanosis and Coil IF you are going to play an important part. Are you bringing any of your associates/partners from the following three companies to Kanosis?

SecurePathways Inc. (CEO/CTO, 2/2003 to present)
East by North Corp. (CTO, 7/2001 to 2/2003)
AdEvia Limited (CTO, 7/2000 to 7/2001)

[JimSouthworth]

Hey guys, I sincerely applogize for the length of this post, but you asked the questions and started this exchange. I hope you know there is a point where the over zealous investigators start to become the defendants…. I haven’t yet threatened you and if you really understood whom my other consulting employers were and again are in the DC area and Lyon France, you would be at least a little judicious, and I have earned my trust in that community by paying my dues and performing for law enforcement etc.. So back off on the threats of pressure, I don’t respond well to those and I don’t have to. I have communicated and supplied information to you in all good faith. I will again submit to more of your questions, but it finally dawned on me today when I was asked the same questions I was asked three times previous that I am most likely dealing with some self-empowered vigilantes. Now if you want me to change that image at least respect me enough to ask the same question once and listen to the response.

When you found it necessary to ask again for office and home addresses you already have and have them read back to me, when one of you asked for an annual report for a closely held non-public international company that is a start-up so it won’t have an annual report for a couple of years (if it even has to have one then is questionable), when you in the immediate preceding post from “ycchen” pose a not so veiled threat to me, remember something I said last night that the Internet is not the anonymous place that some people think it is and it is becoming much less as each major long haul carrier like my friends at Electric Lightwave do, whom own both the bandwidth and Blue Host company at their hosting center in Salt Lake City. Also, as they have been converting their back-bone routers to “IPv6 addressing enabled routing software” (and I bet most of you don’t even understand what the implications of IPv6 are) the ability to spoof an identity other than actual can easily and automatically detected and then be flagged and traced.

You guys are doing something good for some usually gullible defenseless consumers, but don’t let your self righteous fervor blind you to a sincerely honest and experienced citizen of the Internet whom is really trying to cooperate, but do not expect me who has done nothing wrong to knuckle under easily. I don’t like to do the rooster dance with anybody because it cheapens the relationship and the actual honest exchange I really have been attempting. So here are my responses to the last batch of questions from “ycchen”.

1. As you are quick to recognize the Kanosis business model is based on a MLM strategy designed to facilitate rapid and explosive growth specifically so as to reach the critical mass and economy of scale necessary to reach a truly profitable revenue stream and useful services for ALL those participating in the venture. As several of you have noted the business plan does however diverge from typical scams by controlling that growth through referrals…. That is actually a lot more efficient than you may realize in keeping the mis-use to a minimum and the financial exposure to something reasonable for even a small player. (even I the “techie” understand enough to see the difference between a hurtful scam and a real business model). I honestly do not know who “Flowmaster” is (yet) and as I said previously, I knew nothing of MMG until you referenced it. I can assure you I will know all about both very soon and as I also said earlier we will deal with this at Kanosis, I have already discussed this with my associates and superiors.

2. Your questions about Axiasoft are both naïve and potentially invasive. You make the assumption that a company has to have a web presence to do productive actual business, this isn’t necessary when the principle software products are focused on a series of specific clients as in this case are for the most part in the legal industry. They were an honest outgrowth of a software company that hit it big during the “dot com” explosion of wealth before the bubble burst. A lot of people made a lot of money honestly that enabled them to be creative for the rest of their lives. Axiasoft started that way. I am not an employee or agent of Axiasoft so I can’t and won’t talk to their specifics, but I’m sure if you are reasonable the principle manager/owner there will talk with you. Just remember this is not an inquisition feeding somebody’s ego on either side.

3. The business structure of Kanosis is essentially locked down now and is being enhanced with real world class talent in technical, financial, and legal to supplement the senior management team. I know I wouldn’t have joined as an employee if I didn’t believe they could and would make it. Irrelevant of the marketing hype and usual fluff from any startup new venture looking for initial growth, the team, money, and business plan is truly in place to create a real credible international business.

4. The “About Kanosis” and “Who we are” sub-sites are being cleaned up and edited to show all the legal addresses and field offices of the company and all their contact information beyond that which you also already have collected from our very public registrations. The new office in the Los Angeles area is being put together as we speak and will be on that list. Until then you already have the registration and actual business office address in Cyprus. I spent a week there myself a couple of weeks ago for one of our planning sessions. We are looking for new expanded space nearby and that should be in place by product launch next month.

5. Concentric Network was one of the largest ISPs in the world at one time and as a company ceased to exist in June of 2000 when they were absorbed into XO Telecommunications by merger. I left the company one month later to start another company in London, England. The MLM matrix model has a very unique advantage in that it allows Kanosis to reach critical business mass in the shortest possible time without much of the usual and traditional market education and product only sales process. If you were to analyze the Internet businesses that have “made it” in the last few years since the “dot com bust” you would see that ASPs selling “Value Added Services” have failed consistently except in Porn and Gambling…. We are definitely neither of these…. I would truly say that the stock-market and options trading on the internet fits under both as seductive chance taking.

The reason for many failures is that the infrastructure expenses to deliver the service typically had to lead a slower growing customer base. By being truly international “day one” we gain time zone shifted loading to optimize our utilization and maximize revenue. However, the real dynamic that must be used is that which is a unique capability of the Internet, explosive growth by financial incentives and "referral only" sign-up for user pre-qualification. These together allow rapid catch up by the economy of major scaling. This in turn allows us to wash out or at least minimize the cost of time limited growth. No OTHER business model except the MLM allows this because of among other reasons the almost “one on two” implied customer service. If you really get what I’m saying and at least one of your MBA types I’m sure will, you can see why traditional business models pale.

But to make this really work, you need a powerful unique yet widely applicable service offering product to sell. Not “the same old stuff” of traditional messaging only. If you truly take the time to understand the new paradigm for PC usage that is being shown via “Coil” then you will probably understand our excitement, but even for “coil” you have to use it to appreciate it…. That doesn’t work unless there are financial incentives to the individual users at anything except a traditional slow “Hockey Stick” growth rate. MLM, fixes this specifically.

6. The last question is quite personal. I have been blessed with working both with and for some amazing people in my career. I will definitely be bringing some of the best of the best technical and operations people I know in the business to Kanosis and have already started that process. If you can find the companies from my resume, you can find the websites easily for those that haven’t been absorbed into other companies as part of normal business growth and evolution. My resume and career speak for themselves. I wouldn’t be with Kanosis if I thought it to be anything except an amazing opportunity to advance myself and the range and scope of the Internet. What you may not be able to read into the resume is the amount of time and personal funds I spent advancing international standards for broad-band technologies such as DSL and some forms of wireless. Not to be too self-righteous and guilty of what I accused you guys of, but one of the reasons I respect what you are doing with Matrix Watch is the concept of advancing the web as a mean of advancing society. I know that sounds corny, but I feel I have and am making a difference for the good of others. There are many many ASP product offerings that have failed bringing badly needed services in security and health care etc. to the end users of the net. Our approach at Kanosis is both disruptive of traditional business expectations and enabling in terms of the applications that can legally and fairly follow in our honest foot-steps. So please keep the “riff raff” down while we help another generation gain services and wealth from a formally mis-used suspect business model.

[Webwatch]

Hello Jim,
I'm a little confused as your last post seems to have switched to a more aggressive stance-(threating us with this IPv6 seems a little odd).

Please don't fall into the trap of using threats which will only dent your reputation on this thread as a few others have found by using this forum to advertise their schemes, not that I think you are doing this.

Although it is true that using forums like this does allow a little more brovado due to the anonominity factor everything I have asked or I will ask I would do
in person if need be.

So please keep the “riff raff” down while we help another generation gain services and wealth from a formally mis-used suspect business model.

At last something we agree on, the Pyramid technique is indeed a suspect business model. Not sure about the "riff raff" bit, do you mean me!.

As i bought to your attention the MMG thread which will damage the Kanosis reputation more than this Forum ever could I cant help but think I have assisted you in some way.

On a side note-could you keep your posts a little shorter as it is hard for me to find the key points in them. (apology's if this is just me).

Thanks again for taking the time to come here and answer our questions.

-----------------------------------
As a wiser man than me once said:
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight for your right to say it"

[JimSouthworth]

Webwatch,
The agressive tone on my part was in answer to (in my opinion)the less than subtle threat I read into the note from your associate “ycchen”.... I didn't mean anything other than I can take care of myself and didn't need to be prodded to cooperate by implication even. I appreciate your situation entirely.... thats why I am still here answering questions.

I also thought I was clear in my post that I certainly don't consider you guys the Riff Raff.... that would be most of the other web scams you are taking on.....

Your suggestions about MMG were taken very seriously by me and the other members of the Management team at Kanosis.... THANK-YOU

[Webwatch]

Jim,
Thanks for the clarification.
I dont have anything more constructive to add at the moment but I will keep watching.

[Arzel]

Jim,

I still have a problem with your matrix approach.

You claim that by doing so you will saturate the market with your "Coil" product (which still isn't very well defined) in a short time. However, the motivation for using the product is clearly the prospect of making money through the product in a forced matrix style. I believe that Kanosis is using a Matrix of 2 for its model which under this approach ensures that at least 50% of your customers will see no value from the marketing method by which you wish to introduce "Coil".

Now if "Coil" was really a great product this could be alliviated by the value of "Coil" versus the cost of joining the matrix, however, the Kanosis site does not explain, in any great detail, the benefit of "Coil". Because of this one must assume that the sole reason for joining Kanosis is for the purpose of profiting through a MLM type model (in this case the Matrix model). This leads one to the revelation that even if "Coil" is a great product a vast majority of your customers will not see any value because their motivation for joining Kanosis is secondary to the "Coil" software, or anything else that Kanosis may have to offer.

Can you not see how this marketing scheme looks to be purely a window dressing for the actual underlying Matrix scheme. Hundreds, if not thousands, of scammers have tried to use similar logic in promoting their scam. This is not to say that Kanosis is undeniably a scam, but it has so many common threads as other scams it is extrememly difficult for those of us that are experts in identifying these scams to not see the connection.

Kanosis could do itself well be defining what Coil does and how it will be usefull (specifically) and not to generalize about how this product will revolutionize the internet. Also, Kanosis should drop altogether the Matrix model.

[JimSouthworth]

Arzel,
"Coil" like any other "groupware" or community of interest collaboration software only serves it's users well when it has sufficient adoption among the user base it is directed to. In our case the Kanosis community is made up of small buiness groupings, personal consumer and affinity interest groups, church congregations (didn't expect this one), etc. etc. Yes there is a financial incentive to accelerate and facilitate in probabgating the community, but that is also the motivation and incentive for the MLM approach. The question was asked earlier why if Coil is so good we don't just sell it outright.. we will, but after we have matured it further with some additional development probably by this summer. Besides it still needs a central server as does this very site of yours to be useful. You located this web/Blog site in Salt Lake City. Kanosis has one in London and another being built here in the US near AOL's HQ in Ashburn, Virginia with several more already funded and being expedited (My job specifically) over the next few months.

The part I believe you are missing I think is that Coil is not the only software being integrated into the service product offering, it alone is not the Kanosis product offering even now. There is now also a web site authoring tool and several other support systems that further facilitate the "groupware" concept. Within a few weeks, but most certainly not until after launch at this point, there are some VoIP and video conferencing tools being added... I'm sure you observed the explosive growth of Skype ?? Skype (now owned by Google) used an MLM like model in that each user brought other users to the community because of the incentive of essentially free phone calls anywhere in the world and the subsequent huge reduction on phone call costs to the biggest users operating internationally. Its users now save thousands of dollars a year for their international business and family communications, our model only involves a few hundred annually. Our model also takes this further by including a bunch of other additonal services wrapped around living and working "life at the speed of the Internet" (sounds like a marketing pitch and it is... we used it at the DSL Forum which acts as standards body for the DSL industry world-wide).

Your criticism of the lack of adaquate description of the software is valid and taken as an action item. This has been less of an item for us, because usually the initial users join and start to use it. This is definitely one of those systems that is a lot easier to understand "hands-on". The part that I think also is overlooked is that the recurring revenue from the Kanosis "Service" sustains ongoing operations as well as compensation. This is key to the continued usefullness and growth of the community of interest. Both motivations feed each other, but the bottom line there is definitive value to the users beyond compensation only and the larger the group involved the more useful the tools and so on and so on. Does this make sense and answer your question ??

[concerned]

In our case the Kanosis community is made up of small buiness groupings, personal consumer and affinity interest groups, church congregations (didn't expect this one), etc. etc.

Actually, it is funny you mention church. Let me tell you that a lot of us WOULD have expected to hear you use a church. Let me tell you about one of the biggest scams we are dealing with right now. They are a group of "Christians" that would never scam people. You see, when you mentioned church, you just opened the eyes of many to think more than ever that you are using this as a sham for the fact that it is a scam. I am more convinced now that it is a scam.

Yes there is a financial incentive to accelerate and facilitate in probabgating the community, but that is also the motivation and incentive for the MLM approach.

The question came up about information about COIL and why it doesn't exist. Even using an MLM stragety, if the people doing the refering don't know what COIL does, how are they going to convince others? Oh that's right, they will just say it is a money making opportunity.

The part I believe you are missing I think is that Coil is not the only software being integrated into the service product offering, it alone is not the Kanosis product offering even now. There is now also a web site authoring tool and several other support systems that further facilitate the "groupware" concept.

Why are these not well mentioned on your website? Like the web authoring tool. How many are available for free on the internet? What are the other "support systems" you mention?

Your criticism of the lack of adaquate description of the software is valid and taken as an action item. This has been less of an item for us, because usually the initial users join and start to use it.

Let me translate for some of the others. This has been less of an item for us, because the initial users are just trying to scam others, and never intend to use it anyway.

This is definitely one of those systems that is a lot easier to understand "hands-on".

That doesn't mean you don't have to have any information about it? There are tons of users that don't know how to learn anything hands on. Don't you know that Mr. Consultant?

[Arzel]

Arzel,
"Coil" like any other "groupware" or community of interest collaboration software only serves it's users well when it has sufficient adoption among the user base it is directed to. In our case the Kanosis community is made up of small buiness groupings, personal consumer and affinity interest groups, church congregations (didn't expect this one), etc. etc. Yes there is a financial incentive to accelerate and facilitate in probabgating the community, but that is also the motivation and incentive for the MLM approach. The question was asked earlier why if Coil is so good we don't just sell it outright.. we will, but after we have matured it further with some additional development probably by this summer. Besides it still needs a central server as does this very site of yours to be useful. You located this web/Blog site in Salt Lake City. Kanosis has one in London and another being built here in the US near AOL's HQ in Ashburn, Virginia with several more already funded and being expedited (My job specifically) over the next few months.

The part I believe you are missing I think is that Coil is not the only software being integrated into the service product offering, it alone is not the Kanosis product offering even now. There is now also a web site authoring tool and several other support systems that further facilitate the "groupware" concept. Within a few weeks, but most certainly not until after launch at this point, there are some VoIP and video conferencing tools being added... I'm sure you observed the explosive growth of Skype ?? Skype (now owned by Google) used an MLM like model in that each user brought other users to the community because of the incentive of essentially free phone calls anywhere in the world and the subsequent huge reduction on phone call costs to the biggest users operating internationally. Its users now save thousands of dollars a year for their international business and family communications, our model only involves a few hundred annually. Our model also takes this further by including a bunch of other additonal services wrapped around living and working "life at the speed of the Internet" (sounds like a marketing pitch and it is... we used it at the DSL Forum which acts as standards body for the DSL industry world-wide).

Your criticism of the lack of adaquate description of the software is valid and taken as an action item. This has been less of an item for us, because usually the initial users join and start to use it. This is definitely one of those systems that is a lot easier to understand "hands-on". The part that I think also is overlooked is that the recurring revenue from the Kanosis "Service" sustains ongoing operations as well as compensation. This is key to the continued usefullness and growth of the community of interest. Both motivations feed each other, but the bottom line there is definitive value to the users beyond compensation only and the larger the group involved the more useful the tools and so on and so on. Does this make sense and answer your question ??

I am sure that some people will find use for this product, but it doesn't change the fact that it is being marketed as a get rich quick scheme by the normal ponzi players. I don't hear anyone talking about the product, all I hear is how many people they have been able to get into their downline.

I understand the recuring income aspect, but it doesn't change the fact that unless your users see more coming back out then they see going in I don't suspect they will continue to subscribe.

How do you address the "get rich quick" aspect of this company? It doesn't help that it is referred as the "New Herbalife" because of your connection to that "get rich quick" scheme.

I do see a benefit for some people that do a large amount of business travel and require access to their files at all times, but as someone that has done a large amount of traveling for business I don't see that to be a large market, plus that is not the market toward which Kanosis is marketing itself. The current market is those gamblers that never leave their computer, and they would not have much need for the "PCAnywhere" aspect of "Coil". As you mentioned Skype already offers some of the tools Coil will offer, yet they offer them for free, or basically free. Plus there are other tools which offer integrated conferencing tools for free or basically free. A $264 annual liecence for a tool that just won't be that useful for most people seems extreme.

There are so many aspects about this scheme that scream scammy I don't know how you will overcome them all, but a start would be to disassociate yourselves completely from the MMG people (you do realize there are people promoting that you can make ten's of thousands dollars a year by becomming members do you not?)

[uk2go]

REPEATED AGAIN DUE TO NOT BEING REPLIED TO.....

As Arzel and Ychen are much better at detecting potential scams it is unlikely that anyone else can come up with better questioning. I personally am not always as sceptical as they themselves are, and like to trust people - this can on occasion get me into trouble!

I just have one or two questions for Mr Southworth;


(1) What actually IS Kanosis? On the website Kanosis is advertised as the online community, with a separate COIL software product. However, we all seem to be describing Kanosis as the software itself - yourself included.

(2) Can you join the Kanosis community for $15.00 per year WITHOUT subscribing to the COIL software package? The frontpage of the website suggests you can, but the payments section states otherwise.


I would be grateful if you could clear up these misunderstandings so that we all know what we are discussing.....

[JimSouthworth]

uk2go,
I will respond in a few hours to the other guys, but I only have a few minutes right now before I have to leave for some meetings.... I actually do have other work to do besides resonding to this interegation.

1. Kanosis is an online community which is another way of saying online service or even a value added ASP (Applications Service Provider). It does in fact interface to user via the use of "Coil" and other software, but the software packages are the tools by which membership is provided and additional services are delivered. Kanosis provides the servers and infrastructure to sustain the community and facilitate its operation. The software is integral but not the actual environment.

2. Yes, you can theoretically (and soon to be fixed) subscribe to just the service. That will become more meaningful as more and some free basic service elements are provided over time (time as measured in a few months) besides just the "Coil" sotware as is the case now. The user interface will be evolving to integrate these other services rapidly, some are scheduled by launch date, until then, your choice is to subscribe only with an installation of "Coil" to facilitate operations. The service would not have value right now without the interface to Coil for anything other than a MLM place holder, WE Don't do that!!! It is expected that there will always be at least one of our service elements sold with the basic service.

as I said earlier, not to ignore anybody else, but I do have to run for some other meetings and will respond to the previous two posts later... thank you for being patient on these questions, I had to talk to one of our software architechs first to get a clarification myself, at first I thought it was an oversight.... remember, I'm building the infrastructure and I have additional leases to negotiate and some server equipment to purchase so we meet our delivery dates.

[weirdid]

The part that I think also is overlooked is that the recurring revenue from the Kanosis "Service" sustains ongoing operations as well as compensation.

This is one part i do understand, its the classic model for a ponzi/matrix scheme. Peter gets robbed to pay paul.

I cant see anyone being prepaired to pay $260 just for the software, it will only be the lure of making money from the scheme that will result in sign ups.

Time will tell.


_weird

[uk2go]

Speaking personally, all I want is the online community that is advertised and promised for just $15 a year! Not bothered with making money from the site, just using the services as advertised.

Makes me wonder, if this won't be possible for 'several months', why this is advertised at all on the site - seems to confuse people. Is this deliberate, I wonder?!!

[JimSouthworth]

weirdid,
I believe you have summarized for me the reason I have to turn this open-ended unlimited interrogation around…. For at least the tenth time in two days, we are not selling a software package for $260/year at Kanosis, we are selling a service offering that includes the use of the necessary software (in this case “Coil”) for that period of time and the infrastructure that it requires to function. This is a very competitive price that stands on its own. For example, if you buy monthly services from AOL broadband at $20/month that is already $240/year….so I guess this should be a reverse “ponzi” where instead of robbing Peter, he gets a gift from Paul???? I mentioned that a church pastor introduced the business to his church members and BAM we are guilty of his well intended actions, which they all repeated themselves. The attitude of a few of the “Investigators” on this site seems to be definitely slanted in favor of convicting anyone and everything that gets a single correlation with any part of the really bad schemes that you attempt to expose, irrelevant of all the facts being considered. I guess then all casinos world-wide should be shut down because they are get rich scams that may put someone voluntarily at risk…. Wait a minute, this also sounds just like the stock market too……

What you need to do to actually get serious support from Law Enforcement anywhere in the world is to show that a business plan meets the burden of proof that it involuntarily damages the participants OR that there is actual tangible Fraud (not just marketing hype) involved by anyone who is selling these services. Neither is the case for Kanosis and no matter how similar it is to scams that have been determined to be fraudulent before, this business is a legal sustainable business that provides benefits to its sales agent members both with services and in many cases monetarily. You MUST avoid opinion only, innuendo, and partial truths if you want consistent results. OBTW, this is what the real professional do in law enforcement, I know, many senior officials are my clients and my long time friends.

[imlordsfriend]

How dare you confuse good Christians with Scams!(ROMANS1:25) You try to involve the Christian's as to use them as a OK for Kanosis. You have no right to use Christians in any part of your forums answer or use as a excuse to make it look like you have all these followers, this is a terrible thing to do. How dare you!I want to know what are you going to do if Kanosis falls apart ,like so many who tried this always do?Are you going to personally refund all these good Christians money?What you are not looking at, is all the hurt good people if Kanosis is a scam?I know the people getting involved with this ,they are refinancing there homes and any thing it takes to get in this company based on all of the build up of Christians joining.Your suggestions of Christians supporting Kanosis sounds like a attempt to minipulate good Christian's.This is out of control. I say to you involved, All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law,and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous. And for all of you my brothers and sisters please think before you act.Romans 3:13 Their throats are open graves;their tongues practice deceit. The poisons of vipers is on their lips. Always Beware; I pray for all of us,and i know GOD'S Angels Will Prepare The Way.Sometimes greed truly blurs our vision,and we no longer can see the light,we get caught up in the shadow for a moment,then realize it so much warmer in the light! I as a Christian, believe in the only way, the LORDS WAY. God Bless All!

[Webwatch]

I think we may have gone off topic a bit.
Could we keep this thread to a discussion on Kanosis which I still believe is doomed to fail in the long run (sory Jim I am still not convinced but my mind is still open to your arguments).

Bringing the Church into this discussion will allways throw up problems.

However I cant believe a Christian group would invest in this scheme as its main lure is greed (a sin when I last looked, but unfortunateley a built in facet to mankinds future success or demise).

Its probably best if we "turn the other cheek" and not mention any religious groups in connection with this.

On another note wouldn't it have been better to start Kanosis with a smaller initial investment say $9 per month and $5 per year to get things started and if the community grows to planned predictions this amount could be increased overtime. Also internet retailers could be invited to advertise in the Kanosis community and purchases made from them would go towards the minimum monthly cv value required for members stay in the matrix.

Also Jim could you give one of the leaders of this Forum temporary access to Kanosis so they could give us all a review of the coil software.

When comparing Coil to AOL, with AOL the subscriber also gets a high speed internet connection (this is the main reason for an AOL subscription) albeit a pop-up infested one due to AOL's need for revenue from paid advertisers.

[ascavuzzo]

February 17, 2006

Matrix Watch Members

Re: Kanosis / COIL

Thank you Mr. Southworth for answering the questions posted on this forum regarding Kanosis / COIL. I did a certain amount of due diligence myself on you, Steve Whittington, Alistair Kildey, Steven Van, etc., the companies that encompass Kanosis and the product. I wrote on this forum that what I found gave me the confidence that I wasn't being mislead. This forum doesn't want to hear that whatsoever... This is a forum of username, not people, but usernames who appear to be against ANY marketing strategy, or affiliate program that would offer benefit to its members. If it pays via a referral, it will be taboo here...

After reading all the correspondences on this forum and considering many possibilities, something occurred to me and I have made decision to unsubscribe from this forum and not give these discussions / usernames another thought.

We know who you are, who Steve Whittington is, who Alistair Kildey is, and others related to Kanosis. It is obvious and comforting that every one of your reputations are impeccable, which is to in part say, you are honorable. I appreciate your taking the time to answer questions, especially because your not being given the opportunity to know who you're talking with... What occurred to me was WHO THE HECK IS webwatch, and concerned, what is their education, background, what boards have they, or do they serve on, what are their successes, how do we know they are not an auto mechanic that lost $100 in some scam, or better yet, lost money on something they didn't follow through in and just want to revenge... The people who read this forum need to be careful - some of these usernames could keep you from realizing your dreams...

Excellent job Mr. Southworth, .

I've heard enough of Matrix Watch - I'm out of here.

Kind regards,

AScavuzzo over and out...

[Webwatch]

Ascavuzzo,
Thankyou for your input (I thought you had finished here after your last post).

My main purpose here is to give an argument as to why I think Kanosis will fail in the long term (Time will tell how wrong or right I am on this).

Every individual has the right to take into account arguments made for and against Kanosis in this thread and then make their own decision.

I will not bring your credentials into question as this is childish and serves no purpose in the discussion.

I also hope you stay and take part more in this thread as Mr Southworth is the only one defending it at the moment.

Also note this online community did not cost you $59 to join!

[Patrick]

Jim Southworth has said things that some people that did not take there time to read and as well there are many other places that you can read up on legit information on the COIL product with screenshots and all, and Kanosis it self with inside information on what is going on.

One last thing, I think that people don't need to even take a glimpse at the marketing service and just focus on the excellent product that kanosis has to offer.

I say this because im just in it for the coil software.

[Arzel]

Jim Southworth has said things that some people that did not take there time to read and as well there are many other places that you can read up on legit information on the COIL product with screenshots and all, and Kanosis it self with inside information on what is going on.

One last thing, I think that people don't need to even take a glimpse at the marketing service and just focus on the excellent product that kanosis has to offer.

I say this because im just in it for the coil software.

Please provide a link to information on COIL, I have been unable to find anything anywhere that talks about COIL, even though that information should be located on the Kanosis website.

[Patrick]

www.kanosis.org there are some posts about the coil program

[Arzel]

www.kanosis.org there are some posts about the coil program



Per your own forum.

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: who owns Kanosis?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like more concrete info re: Kanosis. Who owns Kanosis? Where is it headquartered? Is the government USA or other involved in any way?


Your response

sorry for info like you need to be registered to the forum so we know were the ip the posts are coming from. Also when your registered place this question in kanosis.com section questions/con

Also when your registered and look around the forum you will find the answer your looking for.

have a awsome day.


This is exactly the kind of mentality that surrounds every scam I have ever encountered.

Besides I was talking about NON-BIASED information about COIL. Furthermore, why should simple information about COIL require registration into the system? I don't have to register to any other legit company to learn about software or services that I am interested.

The more you try and prove how legit Kanosis is, the more convinced I am that it is not.

[Patrick]

Yes and about my forum, since its "my forum" if i want people to register so that the forum grows thats how it will be, untill further amount of members in the forum community.


kanosis.com has info about the product

Never lose important computer based information again
Protect your data from online theft
Access your data from anywhere, anytime
When your computer breaks
When you are traveling
When you buy a new computer, your data is immediately available

Participate in a social/business network
See up to date information for all people your interact with
Easily create and maintain your own personal web site
Use the internet through our safe linux base servers
Communicate with them easily through email, SMS, Instant Message and Computer to Computer phone
Send video mail and voice mail
Optionally store all conversations
Share files of any size with as many people as you want
Send bulk communications to lists of people
Be reminded about name days, birthdays, etc.
Organize events/meetings easily
Organize your life
Projects, tasks, schedules, tracking of time and progress
Entertainment
Music Player
Poker
Movie downloads
Java games

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/5/lang/english/theproduct


Thank you and good luck

[jokach]

I think the point was to find un-biased information about the product (information posted by an interested party is usuallyconsidered biased), what you have provided are some features of the software, but what if I have more detailed questions about it, or in this case, about the company in general..... I have to register? It doesn't seem right.

jokach

[mercinary]

Patrick:

FYI: Your signature broke our forum rules (no links). I took the liberty of removing the link.

-Merc

[Patrick]

well depends what site your talking about registering to :)

even though you can e-mail support@kanosis.com there you can ask your questions.


OH ok sorry about the link then.

[Arzel]

well depends what site your talking about registering to :)

even though you can e-mail support@kanosis.com there you can ask your questions.


OH ok sorry about the link then.

So are you saying that kanosis.org has no affiliation to kanosis.com?

[imlordsfriend]

I think we may have gone off topic a bit.
Could we keep this thread to a discussion on Kanosis which I still believe is doomed to fail in the long run (sory Jim I am still not convinced but my mind is still open to your arguments).

Bringing the Church into this discussion will allways throw up problems.

However I cant believe a Christian group would invest in this scheme as its main lure is greed (a sin when I last looked, but unfortunateley a built in facet to mankinds future success or demise).

Its probably best if we "turn the other cheek" and not mention any religious groups in connection with this.

On another note wouldn't it have been better to start Kanosis with a smaller initial investment say $9 per month and $5 per year to get things started and if the community grows to planned predictions this amount could be increased overtime. Also internet retailers could be invited to advertise in the Kanosis community and purchases made from them would go towards the minimum monthly cv value required for members stay in the matrix.

Also Jim could you give one of the leaders of this Forum temporary access to Kanosis so they could give us all a review of the coil software.

When comparing Coil to AOL, with AOL the subscriber also gets a high speed internet connection (this is the main reason for an AOL subscription) albeit a pop-up infested one due to AOL's need for revenue from paid advertisers.
I am sorry you feel that way...This is Bigger than we know....I do not think talking of Church or Christians have gone off topic a bit. Lets talk about the truth whats really going on here.Lets ask about the Kanosis members list. JIM do your magic and use your so called connections and show us all the list of members. Why would that be private, if the goal is to sign people under you to profit. The list of members will help all understand that we are RIGHT on TOPIC.And dont be surprised to see a high percentage all go to the same Church. I wonder why? :flame:

[james_oak]

Hi,

I received an e-mail from my parents today that has kept me awake to this point (5:00 a.m. PST). Obviously it was about Kanosis and COIL, and they were recommending it based on someone they trusted in their church who said it was a promising investment opportunity. In the four hours since receiving that e-mail, I have done my best to find out everything I can about Kanosis and COIL, including reading this entire thread.

I am a web applications developer for a Christian university near Seattle, Washington. I develop front-end and back-end interfaces that make our web site easy to use for people who aren't exactly web-savvy. It's been my job for the past six years, and I use HTML, CSS, Javascript, Flash Actionscript, PHP, and MySQL to do what I need to do. We have several servers onsite and I occasionally use a VPN to connect remotely to my work computer. I say all this, not to fill up space, but to give you the idea that I have some experience in the field of internet applications, albeit I know next to nothing about pure Java programming.

I keep running into one major roadblock I was hoping Jim Southworth could remove. I can't find any good information about COIL. All I could find was this url with a screenshot of what looks like a glorified Outlook: http://www.join-kanosis.com/COIL.html. I noticed that several requests have been made in this thread for more specific information, yet so far there has been no reply to those specific requests.

Jim, could you please direct me to a third-party site that reviews the COIL application?

I admit I am suspicious - my line of thought follows... If your product is as good as you say it is (and it is in Beta according to the screenshot), there should be reviews out there. There should be specifics. When Gmail was in the "invitation-only, alpha stage," you could still find independent reviews on the service. I have questions about COIL that could easily be answered. What does it do, how functional is it...for example, a secure transaction network is great, but will it sync with Amazon.com? Otherwise, what's the point? I'm guessing you'll say that as soon as businesses see how secure your Kanosis network is, they'll hop on board, but as others have mentioned, supposedly other businesses are already using it, so there should be examples. Or what if I want to drag a 1gb file into my COIL "Shared Folder?" How does that affect system/network resources? Which brings me to my next question (as others have asked)...

Jim, could you please direct me to a company that is currently using COIL?

Having a chance to speak with a company that has successfully implemented COIL would be extremely helpful. Who knows, it might be something my university would be interested in, mainly for the encryption/security. We've had our share of worms, although over the past year our anti-virus/anti-hack software has performed extremely well. Personally, however, everything else COIL offers could be done for free. Sure, we may use different programs, but a few more clicks doesn't hurt nearly as much as $279/per user a year, or worse, unwittingly conning friends and family into paying my monthly fees.

Internet 101: A secure web site is validated by a third party. And in the same token, software is validated by third party review. These are basic rules of the road that are noticeably absent in your approach, MLM or not. And, coincidentally, the fact that your promotional web site is hosted by a third party (http://www.webbquick.com/) confuses me. Maybe it shouldn't. But don't you have your own servers? Anyway, back to topic, please end this confusion and give me a third-party URL that can validate your claims regarding the COIL software.

Sincerely,

James

P.S. You might want to fix the typos on your promotional site.

[Patrick]

kanosis.org is just a forum community i put up to help out finding information and asking simple questions. Im a member i dont work for them

kanosis.com and kanosis.org is 2 diffrent people, but kanosis.org supports kanosis.com in what they are doing and what product they have.

[sisco50]

kanosis.org is just a forum community i put up to help out finding information and asking simple questions. Im a member i dont work for them

kanosis.com and kanosis.org is 2 diffrent people, but kanosis.org supports kanosis.com in what they are doing and what product they have.

But still no real answers regarding what the product does, who is using it, etc.

[ycchen]

Hi,

I received an e-mail from my parents today that has kept me awake to this point (5:00 a.m. PST). Obviously it was about Kanosis and COIL, and they were recommending it based on someone they trusted in their church who said it was a promising investment opportunity. In the four hours since receiving that e-mail, I have done my best to find out everything I can about Kanosis and COIL, including reading this entire thread.

I am a web applications developer for a Christian university near Seattle, Washington. I develop front-end and back-end interfaces that make our web site easy to use for people who aren't exactly web-savvy. It's been my job for the past six years, and I use HTML, CSS, Javascript, Flash Actionscript, PHP, and MySQL to do what I need to do. We have several servers onsite and I occasionally use a VPN to connect remotely to my work computer. I say all this, not to fill up space, but to give you the idea that I have some experience in the field of internet applications, albeit I know next to nothing about pure Java programming.

I keep running into one major roadblock I was hoping Jim Southworth could remove. I can't find any good information about COIL. All I could find was this url with a screenshot of what looks like a glorified Outlook: http://www.join-kanosis.com/COIL.html. I noticed that several requests have been made in this thread for more specific information, yet so far there has been no reply to those specific requests.

Jim, could you please direct me to a third-party site that reviews the COIL application?

I admit I am suspicious - my line of thought follows... If your product is as good as you say it is (and it is in Beta according to the screenshot), there should be reviews out there. There should be specifics. When Gmail was in the "invitation-only, alpha stage," you could still find independent reviews on the service. I have questions about COIL that could easily be answered. What does it do, how functional is it...for example, a secure transaction network is great, but will it sync with Amazon.com? Otherwise, what's the point? I'm guessing you'll say that as soon as businesses see how secure your Kanosis network is, they'll hop on board, but as others have mentioned, supposedly other businesses are already using it, so there should be examples. Or what if I want to drag a 1gb file into my COIL "Shared Folder?" How does that affect system/network resources? Which brings me to my next question (as others have asked)...

Jim, could you please direct me to a company that is currently using COIL?

Having a chance to speak with a company that has successfully implemented COIL would be extremely helpful. Who knows, it might be something my university would be interested in, mainly for the encryption/security. We've had our share of worms, although over the past year our anti-virus/anti-hack software has performed extremely well. Personally, however, everything else COIL offers could be done for free. Sure, we may use different programs, but a few more clicks doesn't hurt nearly as much as $279/per user a year, or worse, unwittingly conning friends and family into paying my monthly fees.

Internet 101: A secure web site is validated by a third party. And in the same token, software is validated by third party review. These are basic rules of the road that are noticeably absent in your approach, MLM or not. And, coincidentally, the fact that your promotional web site is hosted by a third party (http://www.webbquick.com/) confuses me. Maybe it shouldn't. But don't you have your own servers? Anyway, back to topic, please end this confusion and give me a third-party URL that can validate your claims regarding the COIL software.

Sincerely,

James

P.S. You might want to fix the typos on your promotional site.
James, Welcome to MatrixWatch and share your technical expertise with MWers. I really hope Jim and/or his technical team can give you a soild answers on those two crucial questions.

MatrixWatch always welcome experts from different fields to help us verify products (real or fake) and/or business models (legit or scam). Thanks.

Again, we are still waiting for the "completion of Kanosis.com" website as it seems to be "still in the process" ....:( And of course, we really need testimonials from companies that actually use the "popular" coil product as claimed in the audio recording: (http://www.kanosis.com/english/pages/presentation/, click on the "play audio" (long version)).

What trouble me the most is that the Kanosis team is "slow" in reacting to the fact that Kanosis matrix (and not Coil product) continue to be heavily promoted on the notorious ponzi-promoting platform (moneymakergroup.com). See below for the pramid builder on MMG. See below for a quote from the most aggressive pyramid-builder -- flowmaster. I am sure Kanosis knows about this situation already and should be able to take necessary action to protect the reputation of Kanosis by distancing themselves from MMG.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=45327&view=findpost&p=1257865

I would like to thank Bosco for his testimonial, good job! Sorry Bev, that was Bosco testimonial.

Hopefully the two assigned prospects will join today OR I will have to contact them and expire the username

and give Sorin & Justin assign new ones, as they come in.

Its the weekend and maybe the prospect will have time to do it now or at least read their emails. LOL

We got two more new members yesterday, more are asking for info and usernames and I am

grateful for what we have and what we can become as a team.


Good morning fellow Kanosians!

KEO'S Kanosis Team Feb 18
SAT [5:19am MST_USA]
************************************************** ***********************
PLEASE NOTE: We cannot guarantee that we can give you two sign-ups, but we will try to with group efforts.
If you need guarantees, please do not join us.

************************************************** ************************
If you want to join our group and don't have a sponsor, you need to contact the list manager at coilware@kanosis.com and I will place you under the next available member in line,thanks.
If you do have a sponsor, contact them for furthur instruction. Your sponsor will place you in the appropriate
postion in their matrix.

************************************************** *************************

1) Sorin- sent username to (John)

2 Justin- sent username to (Alfred)

3) Peggy-needs one more ****

4) Toni- needs two

5) Suz- needs two

6) Chris- needs two

7) Melissa-needs one more ****

8) Nelly-needs two

9) Ed- needs two

10) Tom- needs two

11) Chuck-needs one more ****

12) Dennis-needs two

13) David- needs two

14) Jason- needs two

15) Susan- needs two

16) Valerie-needs two

17) Allan- needs two

NOTE: ATTN: Please go back to my welcome post and validate that I have your 100% accurate spelling of your username. If I don't have it correct in my post, contact me ASAP.

ATTN: If anyone on this list gets an outside personal signup,you must inform me of it.
My matrix diagram shows all movement, so no one can sneak any extra personals from us.
NOTE: If I make a mistake on the list, let me know,I'll correct it.

ATTN: To all members, once you are placed on our list means that you agree to abide by all team rules present
and future and terms of our no-guarantee clause.
ALSO: It is each members responsibility to come to this Forum to keep updated with all team info. Sponsors
must let your members in your matrix know this, especially those you bring in, on your own.

************************************************** *********************
Dallas- Please add Saturday's List to the Blog, thanks.

This post has been edited by flowmaster: Today, 06:24 AM

[Arzel]

Welcome James_Oak,

Thanks for the information you provided, based on this information I am more sure that Kanosis is a pryamid scheme, and I now have a much better understanding of what Kanosis and COIL are.

Kanosis:

Kanosis is the framework for what could be viewed as a large corporate network. By using a VPN (Virtual Private Network) one is able to send and recieve large amounts of information over the internet just as if you were sending information between two computers on your own network in your house. This can be very useful for transfering information between people over the internet, or between yourself and another computer over the internet.

If this network is anything like the VPN which I have for my job, the network (Kanosis) can view anything and everything which passes over its network infrastructure (as you are basically logging into their network). What is not answered is whether you are given space on this network to store information. If you are only allowed to use the network for the transfer of information, certain benefits of using the network may be marginal. Also it has been my experience that one can only be on one VPN at a time (I cannot use my university research VPN at the same time as using my work VPN for example).

COIL:

COIL appears to be a method by which information is transfered on this network. COIL itself appears to be little more than a version of Outlook, Kanosis says that it will be offering additional software in the future, but none have been mentioned. Is COIL worth $22 a month? That has yet to be determined, but I know I wouldn't pay it unless they didn't have the lure of easy money to be made......

......thus one must also consider the pryamid nature of the scheme.

Based on the information from the information provided, each downline member will recieve 5% of the $22 monthly subscription each month, with a cap of 14 levels in a forced 2 level matrix for a 2X14 level pryamid.

DON'T BE DECIEVED. The numbers required to reach these levels are NOT obtainable. A full matrix would require you to have 32,000 people in your downline. For the "Magic first 5,000" that Kanosis is hyping you would need about 150,000,000 people in the matrix for the first 5,000 to make the huge amounts of money they are touting each month.

It has been my experience that these pryamid schemes are extremely difficult to fill past the 6th level (32 people at which point you would be making about $12 a month profit. Don't be fooled into thinking you can easiely get more people than that, because the reality is you can't. Each person you get is then in the same boat, as are each person that they get. If everyperson in your downline follows the same logic at level 6 you have 4,158 people total between you and all the other people you and they have been able to get to join the pryamid. And don't fall for the "But there are over 5 billion people in the world!" line, it doesn't work for you.

So if you are interested in Kanosis for the money making potential you need to look no more as you will not make the money of your dreams.

To reach the level of $1,000 a month would require a total of about 260,000 people between you and all the others you have been able to get to join.

It is easy to see, once you start doing the math, that the vast majority of people will not see anything.....so who is going to get rich?

Well Kanosis is keeping 95% of the subscription fees for itself ($250/year), for providing what? The ability to send information a little easier over the internet?

You must ask yourself it it is worth $22 a month for an enhanced version of MS Outlook, because you are NOT going to get rich in this or any other pyramid type scheme.

[emanuel]

Hey Patrick


Did you get pernission to use the Kanosis name when you put up your form.
Thanks

[Patrick]

Can MS Outlook do

VOIP - computer to computer-based telephone service => free long distance.
Instant messaging.
Music downloads.
Movie downloads - compresses 5GB into 120 MB files
Personal organizatoin features (much like Franklin Covey system)
File management, including filesharing or transfer
Online file storage and backup (unlimited amount)
Project management
Voice to text transcription
Foreign language translation
Text messaging
Domain name registration and hosting
Web surfing (safe with there browser)
Secured access network (Filters out spam virus and pop-ups)

And something more i have been using it and i already ran games and other programs right off of COIL.


Please if you can tell me how i can do this with MS Outlook i'll slap myself for using Coil

[Webwatch]

Hi Patrick,

You mention Movie downloads 5GB to 120MB compression.
I presume by this the coil software is connecting to some illegal file sharing sites or does it compress the movies for you.

As my current knowledge goes the only system to convert a DVD quality movie to a similar quality compressed file is by using the xvid or divx codecs (MPEG4) (3GB DVD Movie=700MB Divx File approx) The codecs and conversion programs for doing this are freeley available, but doing so can be against most countries copyright laws.

If the coil software is incorporating some features that would open the user upto criminal prosecution this is a little worrying.

[Arzel]

Can MS Outlook do

VOIP - computer to computer-based telephone service => free long distance.
Skype is free
Instant messaging.
Yahoo Messenger is free as are others
Music downloads.
Not sure where you are going with this
Movie downloads - compresses 5GB into 120 MB files
There are many free zip programs out there
Personal organizatoin features (much like Franklin Covey system)
Not sure where you are going, but outlook has a ton of personal organization features
File management, including filesharing or transfer
There are many FTP sites out there, and if it needs to be secure I can encrypt myself or use my own VPN
Online file storage and backup (unlimited amount)
I would like to know more about this, where is this information being stored? How can it be unlimited? Why would I wish to store personal information on some server that has control over it? This is not to say that this could not be useful though
Project management
MS Project, the people that would need this would already have MS Project for most instances
Voice to text transcription
That might be interesting, but I find it hard to believe that COIL developers have developed this on their own as a unique service. Good voice to text transcription are already available, and the best are quite expensive and a product in their own. So I suspect this is an add-on of some existing technology much like the MS Word voice recognition software that comes with newer versions of MS Office
Foreign language translation
Not sure how much use this would be, but I am not that experienced with such technologies
Text messaging
For cell phones I am guessing?
Domain name registration and hosting
Further Explanation?
Web surfing (safe with there browser)
Safe is a relative term, safer than IE I am assuming you mean, safer than Firefox? Safer than a Unix based browsing system? Secured access network (Filters out spam virus and pop-ups)
Through the Kanosis VPN you probably would have a setup similar to AOL which can filter out viruses and other scripts

And something more i have been using it and i already ran games and other programs right off of COIL.


Please if you can tell me how i can do this with MS Outlook i'll slap myself for using Coil

I have no doubt you can use it for applications, the question is whether it is worth $250 a year, because the compansation plan will leave the vast majority (at least 90%) with little or no compensation. Much of the stuff can already be done for free with existing software applications. So I ask, what is the primary purpose for joining?

Is the software or the compansation? That is what it really boils down to, and I think people should be aware that their compansation is going to be almost nothing for the vast majority of users. If they have no desire for the compansation, then by all means spend $250 a year.

Income potential and your probability of obtaining.
(Assuming full matrix, actual probabilities may vary slightly due to the nature of the matrix design, but these numbers will be very close with very few people making more per month than it costs to be a member (each member needs 20 people minimum to earn $22 a month thus at a minimum 95% will make less than $22 a month).

Income Per Month Probability
$0.00 ........ 50.001%
$1.10 ........ 25.000%
$2.20 ........ 12.500%
$6.60 ......... 6.250%
$15.40 ....... 3.125%
$33.00 ....... 1.563%
$68.20 ....... 0.781%
$138.60 ..... 0.391%
$279.40 ..... 0.195%
$561.00 ..... 0.098%
$1,124.20 ... 0.049%
$2,250.60 ... 0.024%
$4,503.40 ... 0.012%
$9,009.00 ... 0.006%
$18,020.20 .. 0.003%
$36,042.60 .. 0.002%

[Patrick]

Can MS Outlook do

VOIP - computer to computer-based telephone service => free long distance.
Instant messaging.
Music downloads.
Movie downloads - compresses 5GB into 120 MB files
Personal organizatoin features (much like Franklin Covey system)
File management, including filesharing or transfer
Online file storage and backup (unlimited amount)
Project management
Voice to text transcription
Foreign language translation
Text messaging
Domain name registration and hosting
Web surfing (safe with there browser)
Secured access network (Filters out spam virus and pop-ups)

And something more i have been using it and i already ran games and other programs right off of COIL.


Please if you can tell me how i can do this with MS Outlook i'll slap myself for using Coil


Sorry i added music downloads and movie downloads this was a mistake on my part of the list of info i had.

sorry for the inconvenience

[james_oak]

Hello Arzel, Webwatch, Ycchen, and others,

I spoke with Jim over the phone today and did receive answers to my questions. They may not have been the answers I was hoping for, but I have gone from extremely suspicious to just suspicious. I'll lay out my line of thought for you and for others that are concerned about themselves or people close to them to hopefully clarify some things.

Let me preface this by saying I have not had the opportunity to physically review the software - due to my background, I do not need software that puts VOIP, chat, e-mail, etc in one location. I already have Gmail for personal use and use Outlook at work, plus our network is very secure. I also have a web site through GoDaddy that stores personal files for $4/mo., and don't mind doing a little extra legwork between applications to save on a $22/mo. subscription fee.

The main exception for me personally regarding the software is the data encryption method. What I understand from the conversation (correct me if I'm wrong Jim), is that COIL is a Java-based part-GUI/part-OS/part evolving service that piggybacks onto the user's current OS, communicating with servers running proprietary software with 256-bit encryption based on the AES algorithm (http://csrc.nist.gov/CryptoToolkit/aes/rijndael/) for personal data. Don't ask me what the AES algorithm is, as it's way over my head. But that is an algorithm approved by NIST, a government organization.

Anyhow, within COIL are several applications, including a Java-based internet browser. I forgot to ask about the browser's W3C compliance standards, which is something to consider. Anyhow, from what I understood during the conversation, COIL's internet browser application runs using continuous 128-bit SSL certification, regardless of the site, in order for people to interact with outside areas, such as Amazon.com.

I don't know how they do that, but I am not a security engineer, and I have not seen the application in action. Post conversation and after some more thought - as great as the idea sounds, I'm not sure how one would execute it in practice. I have some limited experience with SSL certification, and I would think it's a server-side issue, not client-side. This could either be a truly revolutionary concept in virtual server-side scripting through a server-based client application...or not. I will e-mail Jim and see if he can send me an explanation about that, unless he is able to post here. Keep in mind, if this is truly 100% legit, the man has a lot on his plate. If it's not, then he'll have some amazing explaining to do. Just from my brief background talking to him, he sounds like he knows what he's doing, but then I've also been talked into buying a timeshare, so take that with a grain of salt.

Sorry about all the jargon, basically I'm concerned about the point where data is submitted from COIL's secure internet browser to a non-secure site. My current understanding is, no matter how encrypted an application is, the application would still have to spit out an understandable string of information (i.e. non-encrypted) to the non-secure web site. That's where a lot of hackers get their data, by "sniffing" a port on an unsecure server for form submission, for example. Let me say it a little differently, in case I'm still not making sense: if you submitted a form on an unsecure web site, the non-secure server would have to be able to read the results. If the user is sending encrypted data the unsecure server can't recognize (because it's unable to decrypt), then the end result would be complete gibberish. I could be completely wrong here, so any help understanding this would be appreciated. But right now I find that very problematic.

Anyhow, if it is legit, anything using the general internet is 128-bit, anything stored on the COIL servers is 256-bit (if I understand that correctly, again, correct me if I'm wrong Jim!). If that's true, then you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not a web site you are visiting is secure. Jim used the term "Data in Motion" to describe 128-bit encryption, versus "Data at Rest" to describe the personal data stored on the 256-bit encrypted COIL servers.

Everything else (VOIP, e-mail, etc.) being integrated into one location is nice, the question is whether it's worth $22/mo. For me, it's not. For my parents, with whom I just got off the phone, it might be. They just bought a new computer and are trying to figure out how to get their Juno e-mail onto their new computer. If they were using Gmail, this would not be an issue. But not everybody uses Gmail. Not everybody is comfortable with currently available technology, so if the people at Kanosis pull this off by making a user-friendly GUI/OS, then they will do well. Apparently they are working on tutorials for the interface at the moment, which is currently being revised. And the COIL system allows them to add new applications at will (kind of like Gmail rolling out their integrated chat deal a few days ago). Convenient, I know. Which leads me to the answer to my first question:

Q: Jim, could you please direct me to a third-party site that reviews the COIL application?

A. No. The GUI/OS/service (not application, there is a difference) is currently being revised. It will be reviewed when it is out of Beta (again, correct me if I misunderstood you Jim).

Once again, convenient, I know. But also plausible. Sort of. I told him in so many words that I wasn't satisfied with this answer. And we moved on. Which leads me to my other major question:

Q: Jim, could you please direct me to a company that is currently using COIL?

A: No. Kanosis subscribers have privacy protection that does not allow Kanosis to arbitrarily give examples of clients. They are getting some paperwork through to release that information from willing clients.

Once again, convenient. But, yet again, also plausible. Jim mentioned he had been with Kanosis going on four weeks. That's a short time to get a lot done. So, once again, I was not satisfied and let him know, and we moved on.

Really the only other draw is the investment possibility. Jim stated that the investment possibility was clearly much better for the initial users than for those down the road. Arzel, your list of probability was very helpful for my own personal understanding regarding this. Jim recognized that the MLM structure has been misused in the past, but defended the use stating that the draw was enough to get people to subscribe to the service. Once people starting using the COIL program/os/service hybrid, they like the ease of use and are willing to pay for it, regardless of investment benefit or lack thereof. It's how Kanosis has chosen to create their initial customer base to provide for the large infrastructure they are putting into place.

The bottom line is it might work, as long as nobody else (like Google) offers the same services in an easy to use interface for free (or for less money), using advertising to pay or offset their system costs. It's a high risk investment/subscription, and if you are willing to pay for the possibility of getting a decent service (that doesn't go under due to lack of consistent subscribers), then more power to you. I talked with my parents about it and after I was sure they understood that, I gave them the green light, despite my continued misgivings. The reason is rather personal: my grandfather had the opportunity to be one of the four initial founders of McDonalds and rejected it, saying it would never work. Granted, he was offered major share holdings (not a maximum possible $34,000/year), and was required to invest significantly more than $279/year. Anyhow, my parents aren't the best investors, but they think the risk of complete loss is worth the possibility of some reward.

I, however, still do not. More than anything else, I can't get over the idea that the initial main incentive is to "sell" this to my family and friends, viewing them through eyes filled with dollar signs. The initial main incentive is not the product - if so, there would be reviews from third parties already available, touting how easy to use it is. In conclusion, I could miss out on $34,000/year and have no regrets. I'm just not wired to sell - if there's a good service, *I* will pay for it. If there's an established investment opportunity, then *I* will make it. I will not, however, ask my friends/church/community to jump in with me. That honestly makes my stomach hurt just thinking about it. I know that's personal, and I want to be very clear on that - I am not a risk-taker who pulls my friends in on something filled with so much mystery. Maybe that's why I'm not a millionaire. And I'm okay with that.

The very bottom line is, if this product succeeds and becomes the first Itunes/Outlook/E-commerce platform of the next generation, I will be happy to be one of the subscribers who gets no kickbacks and pays whatever price is reasonable. A general rule with internet-based services is they get cheaper over time. Like I said before, I pay $4/mo. to get some ridiculous amount (like 5gb) of space for my web site, of which I use a fraction. I'm willing to pay for an established service.

I hope this exceedingly long post brings some clarification to the Kanosis/COIL enigma. If nothing else, I hope it helps Jim and the people at Kanosis get some more material for their FAQ. If their product is as easy to use as they say it is, then I wish them the best in their endeavor - too many people get scammed these days due to lack of knowledge. I just hope this isn't one of those cases.

Thanks again for your time Jim and Matrixwatch people.

Peace,

James

[Webwatch]

Hello James,
Thank you for your very informative post which will hopefully give many people a more detailed understanding of what they are getting in to.

Due to the fickle nature of us consumers many who have joined the program expecting to make large returns in the first few months are likely to be dissapointed and may then complain and post negative comments on forums like MMG or this one which will damage the whole Kanosis /Coil system.

I have always tried to post constructive critisums when ever possible (admittedly some of my earlier posts may have been slightly over excitable due to the Pyramid style selling program Kanosis are using).

To recap my position at the moment:
If you are getting into Kanosis on the basis of the referral program to earn a fortune this would be a mistake (in my opinon).

If you like the look of the software and feel it will benefit you then certainly take a closer look or wait for some independant reviews to appear to allow a more informed choice.


Just to backtrack slightly on a previous post I mentioned that involving the church was "going off topic" in this I may have been wrong especially if church groups are getting involved in Kanosis due to the high level of referal income expected. I hope they aren't but due to the trusting nature of church orientated groups if one member gets into it they all may follow suit.

[james_oak]

Thanks Webwatch,

Please disregard the following quoted material in my previous post. I misunderstood Jim regarding this and created my own theoretical dilemma.

Anything within COIL and the Kanosis community is secure, any unsecure site outside of it is still a gamble. They do not have a way of making unsecure sites secure.

Again, any COIL and Kanosis-community related service is secure, anything outside of it may or may not be. Hope that makes sense.

Time to get back to enjoying President's Day Weekend!

Peace,

James

Anyhow, from what I understood during the conversation, COIL's internet browser application runs using continuous 128-bit SSL certification, regardless of the site, in order for people to interact with outside areas, such as Amazon.com.

I don't know how they do that, but I am not a security engineer, and I have not seen the application in action. Post conversation and after some more thought - as great as the idea sounds, I'm not sure how one would execute it in practice. I have some limited experience with SSL certification, and I would think it's a server-side issue, not client-side. This could either be a truly revolutionary concept in virtual server-side scripting through a server-based client application...or not. I will e-mail Jim and see if he can send me an explanation about that, unless he is able to post here.

Sorry about all the jargon, basically I'm concerned about the point where data is submitted from COIL's secure internet browser to a non-secure site. My current understanding is, no matter how encrypted an application is, the application would still have to spit out an understandable string of information (i.e. non-encrypted) to the non-secure web site. That's where a lot of hackers get their data, by "sniffing" a port on an unsecure server for form submission, for example. Let me say it a little differently, in case I'm still not making sense: if you submitted a form on an unsecure web site, the non-secure server would have to be able to read the results. If the user is sending encrypted data the unsecure server can't recognize (because it's unable to decrypt), then the end result would be complete gibberish. I could be completely wrong here, so any help understanding this would be appreciated. But right now I find that very problematic.

Anyhow, if it is legit, anything using the general internet is 128-bit, anything stored on the COIL servers is 256-bit (if I understand that correctly, again, correct me if I'm wrong Jim!). If that's true, then you wouldn't have to worry about whether or not a web site you are visiting is secure. Jim used the term "Data in Motion" to describe 128-bit encryption, versus "Data at Rest" to describe the personal data stored on the 256-bit encrypted COIL servers.

[ycchen]

To recap my position at the moment:
If you are getting into Kanosis on the basis of the referral program to earn a fortune this would be a mistake (in my opinon).

If you like the look of the software and feel it will benefit you then certainly take a closer look or wait for some independant reviews to appear to allow a more informed choice.
I agree with Webwatch on this position.

Unfortunately, with Kanaosis widely promoted as "pyramid-style" business at MMG, the early members in the prelaunch period are mostly if not exclusively "habitual ponzi players" who are hoping to make a gain by rushing to the "front-row seat" of the "pyramid-style" business. Most of them do not care much about the software at all, just the opportunity to make a quick return as soon as kanosis launch, and continue to "sit-back-and-relax" while the pyramid grow until 6th level and collapse afterward. By then, they might have made 6 figures and don't care a shxt if Kanosis ever exist. It will be the time to "move on" with thousands of victims (who don't even own a computer) stuck in the pyramid-matrix.:shake:

With the operation of Kanosis as it seems today, the "pyramid-style" money income has replaced the software as the major incentive for joining the Kanosis if this trend continues. Therefore it does not really matter whether Coil is real as claimed (with not verification and evaluation from 3rd party so far, very unusual) because it is the "pyramid" income that the early birds are betting their money on. If I were the software engineers who design Coil, it would be a great insult to my work. Well, may be the coil software engineer don't know about this, or don't care? I guess we never know.

In any cases, MW will continue to closely monitor the progress of this "business" and hope more experts from various fields will continue to join us. Thanks. :)

[ycchen]

What is the relation between STA and Kanosis? ;)

A Kanosis review?
A review on Kanosis' flagship product -- Coil?
A review of Kanosis MLM model?

The answer: Just a Kanosis AD on STA by the infamous "flowmaster from MMG". The "scam" adv has been viewed 2222 times..lol

A scam promoting another "scam".... good idea! :shake:

http://www.staretail.biz/viewad.asp?id=501217485588931

[ycchen]

According to "flowmaster", the executives of Kanosis are Steve Whittington, Jim Southworth, Alistair Kildey.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=1

According to flowmaster, Steve Whittington was ex-executive (or ex-president) of Herbalife. Can someone help me to connect Steve with Herbalife? Google search is not good enough to find useful information on Steve's past "glory" at Herbalife. :(

Who is Alistair Kildey? You can hear his voice here:
http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/7/lang/english/onlinesignup

Google search return quite a few people but not sure which one is the Alistair Kildey that run kanosis. What is his background? What is his qualification that can bring success to Kanosis?

It is time that we take a closer look at these MLM guru, right? ;)

[JNRAY]

YCChen

I found some Information about Steve Whittington in connection to Herbalife.
From http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12/16/0001075793-02-000569/Section7.asp

Mr. Stephen Whittington was appointed as our chief executive officer on October
1, 2002. Mr. Whittington's background consists of more than twenty years of
senior management experience during which period Mr. Whittington has served as
chief executive officer -- Far East and Pacific for Uniroyal Inc. and also as
the founding president of Herbalife International Inc. During 1973 - 1974, he
was a member of the United States Trade Mission to Japan, representing the
automotive industry. He has also been recognized in the Hong Kong annual
publication "Who's Who in Hong Kong," which recognizes distinguished executives
in Hong Kong. Currently Mr. Whittington serves as a director on the board of
various companies in the United States and abroad. He is also the chief
executive officer of Whittington Industries, LLC and Managing Partner of
Oakbridge Capital Partners, LLC, both of which are private firms.

[JimSouthworth]

YCChen,
And if you find some of the other media stories from that time frame you would find that after growing the company (Herbalife) from about $1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month he had a serious diagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company rather than compromise his own reputation or the financial situation of the customers and investors. Dig deep enough and you will find that the Chair was then about a year later called before congress to testify on the practices the Chairman had instituted that Steve left rather than allow to continue. As the SEC document you are quoting shows, he has had also an amazingly successful and credible career since than as well and has actually come out of semi-retirement to guide Kanosis through our initial explosive growth.

[Webwatch]

Hello Jim and welcome back.

I'm not sure how mentioning Herbalife in relation to Kanosis will promote it in any way as there are many horror stories associated with the way Herbalife uses its referral program to recruit new distributor's into flooded markets with promises of high returns which don't seem to appear, hence why ebay is flooded with Herbalife products.

However in Mr Whittington,s defence he does seem to have left Herbalife before it was brought before congress.

Some similarities can however be drawn to Herbalife's referral program and that being used by Kanosis.

The main product Coil is not in question at the moment, only the way it is being marketed.

It was only when a non-believer joined the MMG forum did it seem to get shut down which either suggests that Kanosis did not want any damage to be brought to the company by someone highlighting the Pyramid style selling technique or indeed it is genuine in wanting to restrict early membership untill a proper launch date (which keeps being put back, Now in May).

Jim if you could let us know with your inside knowledge if there is a reason for the launch delay as the extra month will cost the Kanosis community members another $22 each and many will no-doubt view this thread as the other forums dicussing Kanosis have lost momentum.

[JimSouthworth]

Jim if you could let us know with your inside knowledge if there is a reason for the launch delay as the extra month will cost the Kanosis community members another $22 each and many will no-doubt view this thread as the other forums dicussing Kanosis have lost momentum.

The delay is purely external to Kanosis. A couple of our contract vendors who is supplying equipment and services that are absolutely key to rapid deployment and to the level of initial customer service we will be providing post-launch has been unavoidably delayed. Because of our accounting cycle, we wish to launch a couple of days after the first real business days of a new month. To be honest, personally I also will take advantage of this delay to introduce additional infrastructure and facilities to further enhance our redundancy and the robustness of our distributed clusters that are the core of our operating environment. As for losing momentum, maybe knotching down the growth rate a little for the first few weeks is a good thing for everyone, since we are selling a service and not just in the business of collecting revenue as a scam would be.

[Webwatch]

The delay is purely external to Kanosis. A couple of our contract vendors who is supplying equipment and services that are absolutely key to rapid deployment and to the level of initial customer service we will be providing post-launch has been unavoidably delayed. Because of our accounting cycle, we wish to launch a couple of days after the first real business days of a new month. To be honest, personally I also will take advantage of this delay to introduce additional infrastructure and facilities to further enhance our redundancy and the robustness of our distributed clusters that are the core of our operating environment. As for losing momentum, maybe knotching down the growth rate a little for the first few weeks is a good thing for everyone, since we are selling a service and not just in the business of collecting revenue as a scam would be.

Thanks for that Jim.
Sorry if I sound a bit thick but does that mean in Laymans terms that there are problems with Hosting providers allocating you space on Servers or installing your own servers. Also you will be using this time to improve customer service and back up operations for the coil software.

[JimSouthworth]

Webwatch,
We are having no problems obtaining any site anywhere we wish... it is purely a delivery of new and high performance hardware that we have selected and the location of that equipment so as to be able to deal with the expected growth seamlessly.... not all hosting centers can handle bandwidth requirements growing at potentially rapid rates without it impacting the infrastructure that serves their other customers.... web based services in the porn and gambling sectors have demonstrated this unfortunately too often..... As have sites that have been put under "denial of service" attacks by organized crime.

In addition to this, we have selected our new hosting locations based almost entirely on performance and probagation delays so as to create an efficient use of Internet bandwidth and the best user experience worldwide not just localized to a particular country or countries. In the next itteration we will optimize locations a little more on cost. Did you realize that one of the best places in the world to locate a high performance low cost center is in New Zealand near their concentration of under-sea cables???

[blape1]

I recently joined Kanosis and am looking for 2 partners to work with to join under me. I invested a few hundred dollars and created ********************, a site receiving over a hundred visitors a day, and it's just in its infancy.

I need two hardworking, creative people. The two selected will receive free URLs and hosting on ********************. The big kicker that I am offering is this: I will make my partners referral names be the default on my website for 48 hours of EVERY week. 24 hours each for each of my partners. This means that when people sign up on ******************** on your day, you will be given credit for it.

I am a devoted entrepreneur with great web site design, and marketing skills. I am a well-known member in Kanosis; Check out my webspace. If you are interested please email me at********************

[Webwatch]

Hello Blape1 and welcome to the discussion.

This may not be the best place to advertise your Kanosis promoting website (As it breaches Kanosis terms and conditions at the moment) but welcome and I hope you will be able to take part in the discussion.

You may also want to run a spellcheck program over your home page (just a tip).

We will no doubt be needing your input regarding your website and its content to add to the discussion so please keep visiting here and answer any questions that may be put forward.

One question I have though is:
" Do you consider yourself a member of a Pyramid Scheme or are you more impressed with the Coil software and its functionality"

If you could post a review of coil as you no doubt have first hand experience of it that would also be usefull.

[Ferret]

Hello Blape1 and welcome to the discussion.
This may not be the best place to advertise your Kanosis promoting website (As it breaches Kanosis terms and conditions at the moment)

One question I have though is:
" Do you consider yourself a member of a Pyramid Scheme or are you more impressed with the Coil software and its functionality".



Many people loose money in network marketing businesses such as Kanosis. These are the people that send a few emails, put up a bad website, and expect the money to roll in. I have invested a lot of money into this site and have multiple Kanosis accounts. I have just recently made up for my costs, and am now experiencing my first profits.
Why would Blape1 need multiple Kanosis accounts if he wasn't looking to be the top of top of several matrixs for the income from them

Blape1 your website doesn't look like it used a lot of money.....
Register a name $7? and get webhosting for <$5? a month
You say you made it yourself....
Where did the lot of money go?

[Arzel]

Why would Blape1 need multiple Kanosis accounts if he wasn't looking to be the top of top of several matrixs for the income from them

Blape1 your website doesn't look like it used a lot of money.....
Register a name $7? and get webhosting for <$5? a month
You say you made it yourself....
Where did the lot of money go?

Blape1 one is the epitomy of scammers one encounters on the internet. I hold these types of people in the lowest regards, and have no problem saying that Blape1 is a SCAMMER.

Perhaps Jim would like to comment on this misuse of Kanosis regarding having multiple accounts for no purpose.

Kanosis should have little difficulty identifying blape1 since that is his Kanosis id.

Jim, this is one of the problems I personally have with the matrix model with compensation. It invites this type of opportunist scamming, and is very typical of a traditional matrix model in that you would have many people buy several of the same e-book to line themselves near the top. This would serve two purposes. 1) It allows the scammer to pay himself back a portion of his own money reducing his risk of loss. 2) If the matrices fill he is rewarded multiple times.

[Ferret]

Blape1 has changed his website and it only reads.....

xxxxxxxxxxx.com will launch with the official release of Kanosis

I guess Jim read this and sent a message to him to shut it down

[blape1]

You guys are looking for scams and injustices on the web. Admirable. In this case, you are creating something out of nothing. I would like to overturn any claim made against me. First of all, yes I have multiple accounts. I paid for the sign up of a few close friends. In return they are to provide me with reviews, and problems they faced. Second, My Costs: domain registration $13, three accounts at $44 each AdWords registration $5, Google AdWords charges $25, TrafficBlazer around $20, website hosting $4/month. That is well over a couple hundred. I am trying to provide a valued service. I believe Kanosis’ COIL is a wonderful software application, but Kanosis does a sub-par job providing product information and support. I am trying to provide what they did not. I am looking for a couple people to help provide website content and management. I am serious about making this work and would never condone scamming. I take business ethics very seriously. I am a college student with strong morals, former AmeriCorps NCCC volunteer, and would NEVER do what I have been accused of.

[concerned]

First of all, yes I have multiple accounts. I paid for the sign up of a few close friends.

Then why aren't the accounts in their names instead of yours?

Second, My Costs: domain registration $13, three accounts at $44 each AdWords registration $5, Google AdWords charges $25, TrafficBlazer around $20, website hosting $4/month. That is well over a couple hundred. I am trying to provide a valued service.

Why would you dump money into something you know nothing about? What service do you provide? All you are doing is advertising this informationless product.

I believe Kanosis’ COIL is a wonderful software application,

Great. Maybe you can answer this one question, since you think it is wonderful. What the heck does it do?

but Kanosis does a sub-par job providing product information and support. I am trying to provide what they did not.

Didn't you ask for information before you bought this wonderful piece of software? Didn't you wonder how you were going to sell this product if the makers can't explain what it does? Even with your reviews, how does that help the customers? After all, when I shop for software, I like to see what the makers say it should do, and then read the reviews on what it can ACTUALLY do. If you tell me COIL can make elephants fly, I want to see if COIL developers said that is what the product is supposed to do.

I am looking for a couple people to help provide website content and management.

This should already be available. You are selling something for someone else. They should provide all that for you. Why haven't you asked for the information?

I take business ethics very seriously.

Then why are you involved with a company that is obviously hiding information about the products it sells?

[Webwatch]

Hello Blape1
Thanks for sticking with us and I hope I can address your concerns:

In this case, you are creating something out of nothing. I would like to overturn any claim made against me.
Personnaly (I can only speak for myself) I would like to make it clear I make no initial judgements of you as character assasination is not my intent.

But (there is always a but) coming here to advertise Kanosis is asking for trouble mainly due to the Pyrmaid marketing structure being used by Kanosis.
Enticing people to join your website with the promise of 24 hour referralls is also acting as an agent for Kanosis (Kanosis wont be happy with this at the moment, you will have to trust me on this).

Many of the leaders of this Forum are experts in their own field and know the warning signs of Pyramid Schemes and there opinions should be respected and definately listened too (N.B. I am only a user and not one of the experts).
As time is the main Judge and Jury of any Pyramid scheme my personnal misgivings will eventually be proven or dismissed.

I paid for the sign up of a few close friends.
This is a wise move as close friends can be lost (and many are) by being dragged into Pyramid schemes.

Google AdWords charges $25
This is expensive -to save money in future select 0.10c maximum for your keywords and a maximum daily spend of $5.00 this should help keep your costs down and still put you on googles first page. Keyword reccomendation's for your adword campaign= Kanosis, Coil Software, quickest way to Lose money & friends online (sorry don't use the last one my little joke).

Hope this helps but please read through all the previous posts as you may lose a lot of money on this (especially if your initial investment is anything to go by) and they will help in making a more informed decision.

It may also be worth approaching Kanosis and asking for a salary as you are doing a lot of legwork for them.
Doesn't Kanosis offer free webspace (nearly all ISP's do) which would also help reduce your costs.

Kanosis does a sub-par job providing product information and support.
This is Jims area of expertise and he may be able to assist with any reccomendations you have.

[blape1]

“Webwatch”, thank you for responding to my post respectfully and offering your advice. I am tempted to fall into a back and forth argument with “concerned”, but I am not going to. ******************** was one of my first pages after taking a freshman level intro to web design. I am not pretending to be an expert, or do everything right. This was a learning process for me. I am taking some first steps in familiarizing myself with the online world. Maybe years from now, when I am the expert, I will treat those not as seasoned with respect and not jump to conclusions based on my personal biases.

[Ferret]

“Webwatch”, thank you for responding to my post respectfully and offering your advice. I am tempted to fall into a back and forth argument with “concerned”, but I am not going to

Hi blape1
I think concerned has some valid questions and I would like to hear your answers to them

Thanks

[concerned]

Hi blape1
I think concerned has some valid questions and I would like to hear your answers to them

Thanks

Unfortunately you probably won't hear the answers, because there are none, at least there aren't any answers that will make him look good.

[Ferret]

http://www.joinkanosis.biz/
Join Kanosis!

Join the Kanosis global community and put the Next Internet Revolution to work at making your dreams come true! When you do, use my ID (ekxxxxxxx)

http://www.join-kanosis.com/

Shouldn't these 2 sites be taken down too?
They are still promoting Scamosis

[JimSouthworth]

http://www.joinkanosis.biz/
Join Kanosis!

Join the Kanosis global community and put the Next Internet Revolution to work at making your dreams come true! When you do, use my ID (ekxxxxxxx)

http://www.join-kanosis.com/

Shouldn't these 2 sites be taken down too?
They are still promoting Scamosis
And they will be along with about another 5 that I have detected today.... I actually very much appreciate you pointing these out also. As I said the other day this is a continuous job and we will maintain control of these sites until at least after the launch date, and then still in terms of in-accurate claims, distortions, and business practices. However, the efforts of doing business this way are well worth the rapid deployment of a customer base for the ASP services..... Infrastructive cost big bucks and only after we make our initial configuration break-even point of a few tens of thousands of software users can we start to see the economies of scale that kick in and give us the expanded margins we will run our company from as we expand into additional services and products.....

[blape1]

It’s incredibly easy to pick apart what someone says, come up with some questions, and feel intelligent and better about yourself for it. “concerned”, your inability to conduct a normal discussion is very evident. Thanks to all the users respectfully engaging in this.

False Claims and Assumptions

Then why aren't the accounts in their names instead of yours?
I paid for their accounts, in their names, so they could tell me what they thought of the program.



Why would you dump money into something you know nothing about? What service do you provide? All you are doing is advertising this informationless product.
I "dumped" money into this, after using the software. Services: reviews, and product description



Great. Maybe you can answer this one question, since you think it is wonderful. What the heck does it do?
Why don’t you read my site, I mean, that is what its about



Didn't you ask for information before you bought this wonderful piece of software? Didn't you wonder how you were going to sell this product if the makers can't explain what it does? Even with your reviews, how does that help the customers? After all, when I shop for software, I like to see what the makers say it should do, and then read the reviews on what it can ACTUALLY do. If you tell me COIL can make elephants fly, I want to see if COIL developers said that is what the product is supposed to do.
I do research before all purchases. They do explain what it does. They don’t explain specifics, compatibility, support..... I was not expecting to make a dime off of the matrix. I was only hoping to generate revenue through ads posted by Google.



This should already be available. You are selling something for someone else. They should provide all that for you. Why haven't you asked for the information?
What makes my site unique is MY explanation of the software, and what support I think is needed by its users.



Then why are you involved with a company that is obviously hiding information about the products it sells?
They’re not hiding anything. I think that Kanosis oversimplifies its product description. I believe consumers would benefit from additional information.

[ycchen]

And they will be along with about another 5 that I have detected today.... I actually very much appreciate you pointing these out also. As I said the other day this is a continuous job and we will maintain control of these sites until at least after the launch date, and then still in terms of in-accurate claims, distortions, and business practices. However, the efforts of doing business this way are well worth the rapid deployment of a customer base for the ASP services..... Infrastructive cost big bucks and only after we make our initial configuration break-even point of a few tens of thousands of software users can we start to see the economies of scale that kick in and give us the expanded margins we will run our company from as we expand into additional services and products.....Jim, could you kindly explain to us what do you mean by "maintaining control of these (promotion/recruiting) sites"?

If Kanosis is going to use its pyramid-style recruiting as incentive to build its base, then why are you stopping these sites at all? It does not make much sense to me.

Either Kanosis do it (give up the pyramid-recruiting and stop all those recruiting sites) or don't (let the pyramid continue in public since it is exactly what kanosis is all about!).

One charateristic of a "scam" is the way they use language. They never tell you exactly what they are going to do or not do. Being able to operate in the grey area of legit and ethic is what distinguish a "successful" pyramid (that can survive over 1 year) to a fail one (that crashes in 3-8 months).

Frankly speaking, kanosis business model as it seen today is still pretty much a pyramid scheme. Until kanosis executives are serious about restructuring its business model, playing with words won't convince many people in this forum.

[Ferret]

Did anyone listen to the conference call today? 641 793-7500 pin #141829 Tues+Thurs 8.30pm EST Sat 5.30pm EST

They said 4,000 scamedosisians now and new website on March 4th
1st May will have new video to show new suckers

Said the business customers will be allowed to sign up after the little people in a few months so they will be building the pyramid
Didn't pay too much attention as these conference calls are boring as hell and say very little I might want to know about them

PS: 4,000.....so all you make a quick buck guys had better get in soon if it isn't too late already ;)

[Arzel]

You guys are looking for scams and injustices on the web. Admirable. In this case, you are creating something out of nothing. I would like to overturn any claim made against me. First of all, yes I have multiple accounts. I paid for the sign up of a few close friends. In return they are to provide me with reviews, and problems they faced. Second, My Costs: domain registration $13, three accounts at $44 each AdWords registration $5, Google AdWords charges $25, TrafficBlazer around $20, website hosting $4/month. That is well over a couple hundred. I am trying to provide a valued service. I believe Kanosis’ COIL is a wonderful software application, but Kanosis does a sub-par job providing product information and support. I am trying to provide what they did not. I am looking for a couple people to help provide website content and management. I am serious about making this work and would never condone scamming. I take business ethics very seriously. I am a college student with strong morals, former AmeriCorps NCCC volunteer, and would NEVER do what I have been accused of.


Hi Blape1,

I am the one that said you were a scammer.

I do research before all purchases. They do explain what it does. They don’t explain specifics, compatibility, support..... I was not expecting to make a dime off of the matrix. I was only hoping to generate revenue through ads posted by Google.


Whatever, do you really wish us to believe that you were not in it for the matrix aspect? If this was the case then there would be no need to even create a website to try and build your downline.

Your motives are completely transparent, and I think you should focus on college.

[Arzel]

Did anyone listen to the conference call today? 641 793-7500 pin #141829 Tues+Thurs 8.30pm EST Sat 5.30pm EST

They said 4,000 scamedosisians now and new website on March 4th
1st May will have new video to show new suckers

Said the business customers will be allowed to sign up after the little people in a few months so they will be building the pyramid
Didn't pay too much attention as these conference calls are boring as hell and say very little I might want to know about them

PS: 4,000.....so all you make a quick buck guys had better get in soon if it isn't too late already ;)

4,000! Wow, pretty fast growth considering it was only about 1,500 a couple of weeks ago.

Does anyone have what they said last conference call?

In any case at 4,000, new members will need approximately 67 million members total to reach $32k a month.

[Ferret]

Hear some old calls at the link below
http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/audio.htm

This is interesting
http://www.join-kanosis.com/Kanosis_Opportunity.html
This pre-launch, international company is called Kanosis. Look up their purposely rudimentary website :D (currently) at www.kanosis.com

Is the Kanosis Marketing Approach a “Pyramid” Scheme?

Believing that the best way to address negativity on any subject is to “meet it head on,” I think it is appropriate to raise the question of negative comments you will hear about network/matrix marketing. In addressing a transient blog earlier this month which accused Kanosis of being such a scheme, Jim Southward said “There are a lot of very rich people who have built successful honest businesses using the matrix model. When applied honestly and appropriately it can be an amazingly efficient use of e-commerce on the web.” Many large corporations are beginning to look at network marketing using such a matrix as a means of holding down marketing costs and getting word of product/services out there faster. For myself I am satisfied that this is an honest, straightforward matrix marketing approach that does not unevenly reward top level members.

Doing Good through Kanosis

Many of the early Kanosians are people of faith who view the income opportunity as “provisioning” for good works here on earth. Whether you have such beliefs or not, the choice is yours to deploy some of the income stream from Kanosis to help others. For my part I intend to sign up a couple under my ID that are attempting to raise funding to cure a two-year old son with a life-threatening illness. The goal is a substantial income stream for that cause, but I want them to use COIL® for its value in connecting/communicating with a network of people dedicated to raising money for this sick child. While that alone is not a large commitment monetarily, it is nevertheless indicative of what can be accomplished through this program.

Competition:

Google® and Yahoo!® are the competitors with the closest match in terms of functionality although they trail COIL® in several obvious and numerous subtle ways. :D :D :crazy: Most notably they are not based on IOS/SAN architecture. Microsoft has essentially conceded victory to the virus propagators and has announced that their future lies with IOS and web services. COIL® is at least 2 years ahead of Microsoft’s announced plans.


Nice pyramid diagram
http://www.join-kanosis.com/Nuclear.jpg

You will like this one......5,000!!!!!! but everyone has an equal opportunity lol
http://www.join-kanosis.com/graph.jpg

http://www.join-kanosis.com/forced.jpg

Screen shot of BETA (They are charging for a beta :crazy: )
http://www.join-kanosis.com/Kanosis_COIL.html

[Ferret]

http://www.join-kanosis.com/Kanosis_Opportunity.html
COIL® is valued at more than $200.00 per seat to by Corporate America. This powerful system is being marketed through Kanosis
to consumers for just $22.00 per seat.

Hey Jim still waiting for your answer to who valued COIL at $100 and now $200
What Corps are using it?

You have been asked this question many times and still no answer


http://www.join-kanosis.com/coil.jpg

[ycchen]

Ferret, thanks so much for bringing more information to this forum. Please continue to help us monitor this potentially huge "pyramid scam" as it unfold.

The more I look at its business plan (or scheme to be more accurate), the more I am convinced that it is a pyramid scam that won't last. :shake:

The faster it grows initially, the faster it crashes. We have seen many pyramid/ponzi up and down, and I am pretty sure Kanosis will be just another pyramid-matrix scam that crash 6-10 months later.

My curiousity is: what will be these exectivies' exit plan (read: excuse)? Obviously, they can't blame the server and all the technical nonesense for the slow growth after 6-10 months. So, they really need good excuses for closing down after they have pocketed enough money from the pyramid.

Similar to Kanosis, Empowerism (another dead pyramid-matrix scam) ultimate excuse is: "you have paid for what you wanted (useless leads or useless service), so if your cycle slow down, that's your own fault!"

Many empowerism members refuse to pay their monthly subcription fee after the pyramid-matrix stagnant in 4-6 months, and their accounts were conviniently canceled. :shake: What a scam! :mad:

Kanosis charges ridiculous monthly fees as well (as beta software :crazy: :nono:). That's a very smart strategy. Why? Because when the promised income is not made after 6-8 months, many members will feel frustrated and refuse to pay the monthly subscription fee. Then, they account will conveniently terminated together with their right to use coil service. (remember, kanosis offers no refund ...:D )

This auto-termination design is a great way to reduce liabilities stucked in the pyramid when it craches.

After most of the members terminated, kanosis can just close down or make a major restructuring to look more legit (like the STA for YMMSS), and drag until everyone gives up. End of the story.

Of course, we all know who wins who loses during this "ride" (use MMG language)? :shake: Kanosis "might be" another (no so) successful pyramid scam that survive without procecution. :shake: Of course, we won't let that happen easily. ;)

Fine. MatrixWatch will be here monitoring kanosis pyramid closely, and will also be here when it craches. Witnessing scam going up and down has already becoming our routine. :shake:

[Ferret]

Hey JimSouthworth,
You are spending a lot of time here viewing this thread

How about providing some answers or get someone else from Kanosis to give some answers if you can't
You said you would do that......

[blape1]

I enjoy the back and forth. I can see no mater what I say, everyone wont be convinced. Let me just say that I didn’t expect matrix profits, but wanted the two spots filled just on the off chance.

What you guys are saying is very convincing about Kanosis. My friend knows one of Kanosis’ founders and has been in business with him before. I am incredibly skeptical about the company after reading these posts.

Have you all tried COIL? I thought it was a unique and useful program. But, I am only a college student who hasn’t seen many of these types of software. Do any of you have an account? If not, would seeing some of my screenshots and descriptions of COIL help? I really want to get to the bottom of this.

[Ferret]

. Have you all tried COIL? I thought it was a unique and useful program. But, I am only a college student who hasn’t seen many of these types of software. Do any of you have an account? If not, would seeing some of my screenshots and descriptions of COIL help? I really want to get to the bottom of this.
Any info about COIL would be very helpfull

I doubt if anyone here has an account as you have to pay $59 for the privilege........for testing BETA software lol

Has anyone noticed that the Kanosis website doesn't mention you need to be on broadband to get the full benefit
Isn't a lot of the US and other places still using dial-up?

IS IT TIME FOR KANOSIS TO GET THE HONOR OF HAVING IT'S OWN SUB FORUM?
The Ferret votes YES! :D

[Ferret]

JimSouthworth,
Anything you PM me will end up in the forum
you do like to resort to veiled threats.....
You have not answered any of the hard questions here
Your answers don't get to the point......

You seem to have a very impressive resume and it really baffles me that you would get involved in a matrix scam
There is NO good matrix business.......
You must be an intelligent person to have your accomplishments so how come you can't understand the matrix model?
Can you name just one HONEST business that has a similar plan as Kanosis?

Please read more of matrixwatch about the math of matrices and maybe you will get it.....
What are you going to say to the Kanosis members that are in the lower parts of the matrix?
Tough luck?
You do realize that the vast majority of the 4,000 current members have signed up because of the lure of big $$$ from the pyramid scheme and not because of the mysterious BETA COIL software


JimSouthworth's PM to me
either ID and talk by phone, or back off and respect me

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just maybe I may be a little tired of the continuous battering by self appointed defenders of the universe.... I have in good faith answered question after question and "youse guys" find it entertaining to distort and conveniently mis-quote to your self serving (hobby)purposes...... can you not possibly consider the fact that just possibly a bunch of ethical, reasonable, competent, honest people have decided to use the amazing power of a true MLM matrix for the betterment of the members involved??

I respect the credentials of several of your team whom I have exchanged both public and private email with.... you seem so disposed to persecuting us that you have lost your objectivity and have self-servingly twisted everything that has been provided. I am not normally a masochist by nature and I have been hired to do the job of delivering a world class service to our members, which I have both a resume and history of doing, who are YOU ??? My intentions have never been clouded or distorted, I believe in what I am building and making a reality….. being a sniping critic can be very cowardly if none of you have the guts to even talk by telephone.

I have supplied ALL my contact information to whomever wishes it…. Just today I talked to several members of Kanosis who called and asked honest reasonable questions. In between designing and contracting for our next hardware installations I talked to those people as ANY of our corporate team will be glad to do. WE HAVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OR FEEL GUILTY ABOUT, we are enabling an accelerated wealth building paradigm for those that wish to accept the initial risk…..

Funny thing, in Silicon Valley California, they fight over these opportunities and we are making this opportunity available to whomever WISHES voluntarily to participate….

HOW many other senior management employees of what you consider a “Scam” have endured the cross-examination I have ??? Especially since I was hired to be the chief Internet infrastructure architect and I have been actively building the next nodes of our network???? Who the HELL are you ?? hiding behind anonymity ?? Mr Ferret ?? I hope you appreciate your attempt to embarrass me into playing by your rules again is irrelevant… I at least respect your dedication to an honorable activity to respond this way by private message…. I have nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty about…. We are going to make a bunch of people very rich and probably long before I get there myself, while doing it legally and ethically…..

Jim Southworth
xxxx xxx xxxxx xx
Centreville Va. 20120
703-222-xxxx Main house # (call first usually)
703-926-xxxx US and GSM world-wide Mobile
703-935-xxxx eFax #
xxx@Southworth.org

Now where is your contact info ??? gutless or super careful ?? Google me !!! (you should get 450k thousand hits…over 2/3 are actually me) and understand what I have put on the line in the way of 35+ years of my career to make this fair honest and equitable to ALL those whom participate…… My intentions are clear, this is not a hobby, it is my future, my families future, and my commitment to all those I am responsible to. I will not be a part of an illegal or un-fair scam for personal reasons alone.

Dr. Chen.... put your Phd aside for a second and realize there may be other possible(if not improbable by your opinion) results to this "Kanosis" activity.... I have modeled the finances in Excel and applied all the factors I can extrapolate. I can only marvel at the cleaned-up algorythm that has been designed by my fellow management team to address the target of "fairness" to all involved.

[JimSouthworth]

Any info about COIL would be very helpfull

I doubt if anyone here has an account as you have to pay $59 for the privilege........for testing BETA software lol

Has anyone noticed that the Kanosis website doesn't mention you need to be on broadband to get the full benefit
Isn't a lot of the US and other places still using dial-up?

IS IT TIME FOR KANOSIS TO GET THE HONOR OF HAVING IT'S OWN SUB FORUM?
The Ferret votes YES! :D
Mr Ferret, Who the HELL are you ???

You can take irresponsible “pot-shots” at those of us whom have taken real positions on this debate in the name of “self-righteous” consternation by you and your (respectable) associates but you can only retort with a less than equivalent criticism of the intentions of credible professionals whom have at least disclosed their actual identities. These people including myself have publicly provided to all whom need to trust our Identities and reputations as the Key People involved in “Kanosis”, this new approach to a paradigm for the use of a previously mis-used construct we call a MLM and you degrade to call a “Scam”. Don’t you at least have the “Guts” to discuss this verbally with ME by phone before you go further “half-cocked” off into the ether with an irresponsible conclusion in the mis-directed name of protection of the ignorant masses ??? (whom may very well be more informed than you are???)

Since you decided to take this to the public forum, I have at least reciprocated….

Also, YOUR assumptions are seriously flawed, and if you have the guts, you will eventually acknowledge this….

[Ferret]

Can you name just one HONEST business that has a similar plan as Kanosis?

[ycchen]

Can you name just one HONEST business that has a similar plan as Kanosis?Herbalife, perhaps, assuming that the ex-herbalife people are running the kanosis. More detail comparison is needed.

[ycchen]

Jim, you keep telling us to trust your Kanosis colleagues because they are real people who have real contacts. That might be true UNTIL we see them on Kanosis website.

Even if all your collegues are honest people, so what? The best scam are all run by GOD-like people! What you really need to defense is not how good and honest they are (it is totally IRRELEVANT for the best scam), but really answer all the critical questions that have been put forward on this forum.

Let me just narrow those questions down to two, and will add more (or follow-up) after you or your colleagues give REAL answers. Again, repeating how honest they are, how powerful MLM is will not sell. These are all empty worlds that convince no one except perhaps church goers who don't even own a computer!

1) How many corporations use coil that price at $100-200? How much do Kanosis charge them (on average) on monthly subcription fee? (trade secret? :rolleyes: ) Can your colleagues name just ONE corporate that use the Coil? Can you beg ONE corporate client to give one testimonial of this presumably magical product that is 2 years ahead of Microsoft?

2) Can you or your colleage please address Arzel's statistical question below? How can you justify that only 6.5% of the people will make a profit? If you do not understand Arzel's statistics, I am sure he will be more than happy to discuss with you.

But please ask someone who have the ability to address this serious question of statistical fairness.
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=34405&postcount=1
.....
.....

Level - people - $ per month - proportion of people
0 .......... 1 ..... $36,043 ...... 0.0031%
1 .......... 2 ..... $18,020 ...... 0.0061%
2 .......... 4 ....... $9,009 ...... 0.0122%
3 .......... 8 ....... $4,503 ...... 0.0244%
4 ......... 16 ....... $2,251 ..... 0.0488%
5 ......... 32 ....... $1,124 ..... 0.0977%
6 ......... 64 ......... $561 ...... 0.1953%
7 ........ 128 ........ $279 ...... 0.3906%
8 ........ 256 ......... $139 ...... 0.7813%
9 ........ 512 ........... $68 ...... 1.5625%
10 .... 1,024 ........... $33 ...... 3.1250%
11 ... 2,048 ............ $15 ...... 6.2500%
12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%

Total people after 14 levels is 32,767.

(table fixed to show people per level instead of cumulative total people)

You can already see at this point only about 6.5% of the members will make enough to pay for their subscription, and who do you think is at the top of the pryamid, why the owners of course.
.....
.....

[ycchen]

......
I talked to those people as ANY of our corporate team will be glad to do. WE HAVE NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OR FEEL GUILTY ABOUT, we are enabling an accelerated wealth building paradigm for those that wish to accept the initial risk….. WRONG!! There is absolutely NO risk for the first 500 people (I bet most of them are the known and unknown kanosis executives, including all the habitual speculators like flowmaster). Only those latecomers bare all the risk. :flame: You should know the risk of "pyramid-style recruiting" very well, yet, you still continue to mislead us....:shake:

Funny thing, in Silicon Valley California, they fight over these opportunities and we are making this opportunity available to whomever WISHES voluntarily to participate…. Don't claim Silicon Valley, Kanosis is registered in CYPUS with unknown headquarters CLAIMED to be located everywhere.

I am sure the great majority of the REAL Sillicon Valley geeks will be ashamed to be associated with any pyramid scheme that disguist itself as MLM! :shake:

[Ferret]

this new approach to a paradigm for the use of a previously mis-used construct we call a MLM and you degrade to call a “Scam”.
lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
Jeez, that is some fancy language you are slinging there
obfuscation seems to be your specialty ;)

Please answer the 2 questions in the post above this if you can
that is the crux of the matter
There is no GOOD Matrix scheme.......one day you will eventually acknowledge this and when that day comes your good reputation will be severely damaged

[concerned]

It’s incredibly easy to pick apart what someone says, come up with some questions, and feel intelligent and better about yourself for it. “concerned”, your inability to conduct a normal discussion is very evident. Thanks to all the users respectfully engaging in this.

First of all lets look at the history of your comments here:

I recently joined Kanosis and am looking for 2 partners to work with to join under me. I invested a few hundred dollars and created ********************, a site receiving over a hundred visitors a day, and it's just in its infancy.

I need two hardworking, creative people.

This is in your very first post. You were looking for 2 partners. You didn't even have anyone yet. And this was posted yesterday morning.

Then about 8 hours later, you said this:

I would like to overturn any claim made against me. First of all, yes I have multiple accounts. I paid for the sign up of a few close friends.

So 8 hours later you went from needing 2 people to help, to using 2 very close friends. They must not be that close if you only knew them for less than 8 hours. But let's look on. About 6 hours later you post this.

I paid for their accounts, in their names, so they could tell me what they thought of the program.

So, you went from having multiple accounts to paying for other people's accounts in THEIR names in 6 hours. Let me explain something to you. If you bought the accounts in THEIR names, then YOU don't have those accounts, and therefor you only have ONE account.

Conclusion: You are a lier and can't even keep track of your lies. That is a tell tale sign of a SCAMMER.


Why don’t you read my site, I mean, that is what its about

If you haven't noticed by now, you are not allowed to advertise your site here for free. Didn't you notice that your links were removed. How can I see your website if I don't know where it is. Why don't you send me a PM so I can see it. If you post it in public again, you will be banned, since I am sure you have recieved several warnings.

They do explain what it does. They don’t explain specifics, compatibility, support.....

Did I read this right? Are you contradicting yourself? If they don't explain specifics, compatability, support, then how do they explain what it does?

What makes my site unique is MY explanation of the software, and what support I think is needed by its users.

I get that, and applaud you for at least doing that. The question is, why is your site unique. COIL should have already done this. What do they have to hide?

I think that Kanosis oversimplifies its product description. I believe consumers would benefit from additional information.

Probably because it doesn't make any sense to spend time advertising the product, since they really arean't selling that, but selling the chance to make money instead. It is like all other matrix sites we see. The main flaw is that they say they sell ebooks, but the ebooks they sell are hidden in the site. If you have an ebook store, you should have descriptions of all your ebooks, and have the incentive behind the scenes. If Kanosis is REALLY selling COIL, the whole site should explain what COIL does IN DETAIL.

[concerned]

What you guys are saying is very convincing about Kanosis. My friend knows one of Kanosis’ founders and has been in business with him before. I am incredibly skeptical about the company after reading these posts.

Are you now changing your mind? I don't understand your comment here. Did you start to see what we are getting at about the lack of product knowledge, support, etc? Are you seeing that they are only selling the matrix now? Can you explain this comment? Are you being facetious?

Have you all tried COIL? I thought it was a unique and useful program. But, I am only a college student who hasn’t seen many of these types of software. Do any of you have an account? If not, would seeing some of my screenshots and descriptions of COIL help? I really want to get to the bottom of this.

No I have not used this COIL software before. What I have used is a VPN or Virtual Private Network. Here is another lie they are telling you. They say that large companies are using this software on THEIR servers without the company REALLY knowing the security behind the servers. Why would a company PAY for this software, when they already have the technology they need in items they have already purchased.

For example, most Firewalls include a VPN device. Windows server and PC software includes software to do VPNs. Why use someone else's servers, security, and pay more, when most companies can allow access to all files via a VPN, control security, and not have to pay anything more to some sketchy organization? If you need to know more about VPNs, let me know.

[blape1]

No. I am serious. Reading almost the entire thread has put doubts in my mind about Kanosis. I am trying to stay as objective as possible. I am considering re-launching my website comparing what I have learned from you guys with reviews from Kanosis members, and statements from the Kanosis homepage. If Kanosis doesn’t approve, I will quit and simply use my friend’s account that I paid for. Would any of you be willing to write an anti Kanosis review/argument? Also, are any members willing to let me quote them (of course, ill credit, and reference you)

Please, don’t pick apart what I say and make a retort to an argument I am not making. I acknowledge your statements against Kanosis, and I am trying to objectively evaluate the company. I deny all of your accusations, but, recognize my limitations. I am trying to learn what I can from this group of knowledgeable individuals.

[concerned]

No. I am serious. Reading almost the entire thread has put doubts in my mind about Kanosis. I am trying to stay as objective as possible.

Wow, that is interesting. I look forward to future posts by you, because you are one of the rare few that have been truely objective in this forum. I don't know much about Kanosis per se, but with matrix sites, I asked several times for people to show me a shread of evidence to back their side. I never found that. If someone could show me something that makes sense about any of these schemes that would disprove my side, I would be objective also.

I am considering re-launching my website comparing what I have learned from you guys with reviews from Kanosis members, and statements from the Kanosis homepage. If Kanosis doesn’t approve, I will quit and simply use my friend’s account that I paid for.

I would be very supprised if they DID approve, but they have no right to stop you from exercising your 1st ammendment rights of free speach in the USA. I say go for it.

Would any of you be willing to write an anti Kanosis review/argument?

I personally wouldn't, because there really isn't enough information to be objective enough. I guess I am speaking more on opinion instead of facts, since there doesn't seem to be many of those. The only fact is that they are admitting to using a sketchy marketing strategy.

Also, are any members willing to let me quote them (of course, ill credit, and reference you)

For me it depends on what you want, and if you use it correctly. I would only allow you to quote me on something that is in this forum, and not through a PM because the true context of what I say will be archived here. Also, you cannot just ask members permission. You need to ask the site admin for quotes on this site. Information on this site is owned by Matrix Watch as per the TOS.

Please, don’t pick apart what I say and make a retort to an argument I am not making. I acknowledge your statements against Kanosis, and I am trying to objectively evaluate the company. I deny all of your accusations, but, recognize my limitations. I am trying to learn what I can from this group of knowledgeable individuals.

Wherever your quest for knowledge takes you, it is quite interesting to see you take a back seat and observe for a while and examine both sides of the debate. Feel free to update us when you have a personal conclusion.

[Webwatch]

Hello Blape1
Its good to see that by reading through this forum you have become more aware of Kanosis and some of the issues raised.

Regarding an anti/Kanosis site I would urge extreme caution.
As this is an open Forum by its very definition allows for open and constructive debate (Jim I can almost sense your blood boil but I have always tried to be constructive in my arguments and to justify them).

If you where to launch a website attacking Kanosis I would almost gaurantee that legal proceedings would be threatened within hours of its launch.

At the moment the only thing protecting Kanosis from being an illegal pyramid scheme is the coil software take away this and it would be an obvious one (Like bringyourbuddy.com).
At this time I am unable to value coil as I don't have first hand experience of using it and from what I have read on the features it offers I can gain these freely from other software I have installed on my PC (some freely obtained some purchased) I also own a server and have a 5MB broadband connection so I'm petty well covered.

My main argument against Kanosis is that it uses greed and subliminal promises of high potential earnings from referring friends and colleagues in a forced matrix pyramid system. The t&c and faq sections do try and absolve Kanosis from this intent but it is none the less the main pull and marketing stratergy.

It is nice to see that many of the forums and websites promoting Kanosis have been tempoarily put on hold whether this is due to technical problems delaying launch, making the larger investors a bit nervous or even as i hope is the case for a redesign of the marketing stratergy only time will tell.

But as i keep saying if the coil software is of any use to you and your not getting into it for the potential of making a profit from drawing in others then do so at your own risk but with an open mind and a steady hand on your wallet remember this is a $22 per month commitment for the coil software, this may not seem a lot but to many out there it is.

One final point:
I also find it hard to understand why a shareware version of coil software has not been distributed as any company which brings in a new product needs feedback from test users. Even Microsoft did this with Longhorn in both the official and unofficial channels (IRC Networks).

The key words "Know thy customer" are essential in any new product launch.

Please accept my apologies Jim if coil has been released to a test audience and I have just missed it.

[concerned]

Even Microsoft did this with Longhorn in both the official and unofficial channels (IRC Networks).


Good point. I got a 30 day trial version of Windows 2003 Server when it was about to come out.

[blape1]

Thank you to all for the support so far. Webwatch, I may have poorly worded my website's intent. I am asking this forum's members to respond to Kanosis statements that will be posted on my website or write what they think in general about the company. I talked to Jim, and he is willing to respond to your statements as well. My site is intended to be as unbiased as possible and foster meaningful discussion. I am attempting to give other Internet users the information I learned with you all and with Jim.

Jim is willing to provide me with statements and additional Kanosis information. I am asking those who are willing from this forum to write either a review, your concerns, or your complaints about Kanosis so this debate wont be one sided. I will not post smart remarks or personal attacks. If you do submit something, I promise to post nothing out of context and provide as much, or as little reference info as you desire.

[Ferret]

Great, seeing Jim hasn't answered these questions here see if he will answer them on your site.......

The second question is the important one
It is crucial that you get that answered first
All other questions are distractions and deflections........

) How many corporations use coil that price at $100-200? How much do Kanosis charge them (on average) on monthly subcription fee? (trade secret? ) Can your colleagues name just ONE corporate that uses COIL? Can you beg ONE corporate client to give one testimonial of this presumably magical product that is 3 years ahead of Microsoft?

2) Can you or any of your colleagues please address Arzel's statistical question below?
How can you justify that only 6.5% of the people will make a profit?
If you do not understand Arzel's statistics, I am sure he will be more than happy to discuss with you.

But please ask someone who have the ability to address this serious question of statistical fairness.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=34405&postcount=1
Compensation Plan of Kanosis:

The compensation matrix of Kanosis is the primary driving force behind the current growth of Kanosis, by using a 14 level pryamid (matrix) of 2 people per level you have the potential to earn $32k per month! A pretty substantial amount of money to say the least

Although it is not marketed as a straight pryamid (because it cuts off at 14 levels) for all practical purposes it is a pryamid, as are MLM to some degree. Does this make them illegal? Not neccessarily, but you need to understand the math to determine your probability of making any money off this scheme.

Level - people - $ per month - proportion of people
0 .......... 1 ..... $36,043 ...... 0.0031%
1 .......... 2 ..... $18,020 ...... 0.0061%
2 .......... 4 ....... $9,009 ...... 0.0122%
3 .......... 8 ....... $4,503 ...... 0.0244%
4 ......... 16 ....... $2,251 ..... 0.0488%
5 ......... 32 ....... $1,124 ..... 0.0977%
6 ......... 64 ......... $561 ...... 0.1953%
7 ........ 128 ........ $279 ...... 0.3906%
8 ........ 256 ......... $139 ...... 0.7813%
9 ........ 512 ........... $68 ...... 1.5625%
10 .... 1,024 ........... $33 ...... 3.1250% 6.25 %
11 ... 2,048 ............ $15 ...... 6.2500% 93.75% not making subscription
12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%

Total people after 14 levels is 32,767.

(table fixed to show people per level instead of cumulative total people)

You can already see at this point only about 6.5% of the members will make enough to pay for their subscription, and who do you think is at the top of the pryamid, why the owners of course.

Now if you are interested in Kanosis for the actual product then by all means go ahead, but if you are interested in Kanosis for the prospect of making any real money you have less than a 5% chance of doing so and that probability is only going to go down as time goes on, in a month it will probably be almost 0. If there wasn't such a push to get people into everyones downline with the prospect of earning money, I might talk more about the actual product, that seems secondary at this point.

So remember, when you play a game with the odds stacked against you, you are doomed to lose.

Jimsouthwind has a position in the matrix
What is it?
How much will he be making when his matrix fills up?

$36,043 a month?
$432,516 a year?

[Arzel]

Dr. Chen.... put your Phd aside for a second and realize there may be other possible(if not improbable by your opinion) results to this "Kanosis" activity.... I have modeled the finances in Excel and applied all the factors I can extrapolate. I can only marvel at the cleaned-up algorythm that has been designed by my fellow management team to address the target of "fairness" to all involved.


Jim, you took a couple of pretty tough shots today, so I don't know if you will respond, but I must address this issue again.

I know that you believe that the matrix model will allow everyone to be on an even playing field, but this is simply not the case. I am sure that from the business point of Kanosis this model will allow Kanosis to remain profitable indefinitely, in fact regardless of the distribution of users Kanosis will always remain profitable as your model as set a lower limit of revenue at 30%. So long as the cost per member remains less than 30% of the monthly cost of using COIL Kanosis will remain profitable, and I am sure that your internal model shows a greater profitability in relation to the number of users. In fact I could throw the whole thing into an Integer Programming model and determine the optimal numbers for given conditions. So to be clear I am not questioning the profitability of Kanosis.

However, all of this is separate from the users point of view. You have mentioned a few times that those in the beginning have a greater risk. Now this may be true of the ownership of Kanosis, it is not true of anyone in the matrix.

WARNING MATH:

The expected return for anyone in the matrix is a funtion that follows:

APD = Average Number of People in Your Downline
TNL = Total Number of Levels in the Matrix
YL = Your Level in the Matrix
UL = Someone in an uppler level from you.

APD = 2^(TNL - YL + 1)+[e^(-1)*2^(TNL - YL + 1)]

I am assuming that the number of members in a given distribution follow roughly an exponentiol distribution with mean 1 to estimate the number of members in an unfilled matrix level. Simply put, once a matrix level fills, to estimate the average number in the next level requires a function which does not simply take the median point of the next matrix level as the average number in that level. This model can be adjusted to account for faster or slower growth throughout the level, and this is a pretty conservative estimate benefiting Kanosis.

E(YL) = APD * $1.10, where APD = 32,768 when TLN - YL >= 14.

Using the following formula we can determine the risk associated with being in a certain level.

Without listing a bunch of numbers (you can do this on your own if you would like) we can see how level dictates risk.

E(UL) - E(YL) = [APD / (2^(UL-YL))]*$1.10

You can see by this forumla that someone in a higher level will always have an expected return greater than yours, unless the TLN - YL >= 14

Since E(UL) > E(YL) we can say that E(UL) - $22 > E(YL) - $22 for all UL and YL where TLN - YL < 14.

Thus the risk for anyone in a higher level is always LESS than that for someone in a lower level, so long as the Total Number of Levels minus Your Level is Less than 14.

So there you go, mathmatical proof that not all members have an equal opportunity of earning money.

Actual Results.

TL = 0 (top of the matrix)
TLN = 11 (there were reported to be over 4,000 members as of 2/28/06)

APD = 5,602.8342 (yes this is more than the total current number of members, but remember this a general forumla to be used throughout the entire matrix level)

E(0) - $22 = $6,141.12 Obviously this person has no risk.
E(10) - $22 = ($15.98) Obviously this person is still losing.

In fact when the TLN - YL >= 2 you are all but guarenteed to lose money and have about a 90% chance of losing when the TLN - YL =3.

Thus those in the botton 4 levels are burden with all the risk and those above have no risk.

If you would like I would be happer to examine your spreadsheet which contridicts my analysis, but I suggest you accept the fact that those at the bottom will always have a greater risk than those at the top with regards to making an income.

[blape1]

I have spoken with Jim recently and he has been very helpful in addressing my concerns. Jim agreed to a recorded phone interview with me. It will be posted on my site. I would like to perform such an interview with one of the forum members in order to keep everything nice and fair. any volunteers?? This way potential consumers, and myself, will hear two educated sides to this debate.

Jim seems like an honest helpful guy. I suggest we re-evaluate the manner in which we handle this forum in order to foster more beneficial discussion.

[Ferret]

Jim seems like an honest helpful guy. I suggest we re-evaluate the manner in which we handle this forum in order to foster more beneficial discussion.

JimSouthwind is on level 1, 2 or 3 on the Matrix (pyramid)
Level 0 is probably the Herbal Life guy
The top 100+ positions are sure to be Kanosis insiders and friends
Of course he likes the matrix plan as he is at the top of the food chain and will make some easy money

Follow the money.......

You; blape1 would like a lot of traffic to your website as you will make money off the traffic

If JimSouthwind can't or won't answer the hard questions here he won't answer them on your site either
I am sure you will be easier to manipulate than the members of MatrixWatch

Jim can waffle with the best of them; try reading some of his posts and see if your head doesn't hurt

Hey Jim
You are spending a Lot of time reading this thread...
How about some answers while you are here?

Please answer question #2 in the posts above
this one....
2) Can you or any of your colleagues please address Arzel's statistical question?
How can you justify that only 6.5% of the people will make a profit?
If you do not understand Arzel's statistics, I am sure he will be more than happy to discuss with you.

[JimSouthworth]

Arzel does your model take in the account that each user cell can have 14 level below him in the virtual matrix no matter what physical level he resides on.... so under some conditions a better populated matrix below a given user could produce more money for that person than for some several levels above him..... does that make sense ?? also, later members will be coming in as part of higher value services for which the commisssions will be greater to those just above those cells..... thus another way that lower levels could have greater income than those way up at the top. The key here is that the user community grows fast enought that the actual total levels goes well beyond 14 levels overall, just that each cell never gets paid on anything more than 14 below that cell.

[Ferret]

Jim
The trouble with the matrix model is you run out of people very fast
It requires exponential growth
The planet only has so many people......and not many of them will participate in Kanosis
There will always be people left at the bottom of the pyramid

It is the nature of the beast

Level - people - $ per month - proportion of people
0 .......... 1 ..... $36,043 ...... 0.0031%
1 .......... 2 ..... $18,020 ...... 0.0061%
2 .......... 4 ....... $9,009 ...... 0.0122%
3 .......... 8 ....... $4,503 ...... 0.0244%
4 ......... 16 ....... $2,251 ..... 0.0488%
5 ......... 32 ....... $1,124 ..... 0.0977%
6 ......... 64 ......... $561 ...... 0.1953%
7 ........ 128 ........ $279 ...... 0.3906%
8 ........ 256 ......... $139 ...... 0.7813%
9 ........ 512 ........... $68 ...... 1.5625%
10 .... 1,024 ........... $33 ...... 3.1250% 6.25 %
11 ... 2,048 ............ $15 ...... 6.2500% 93.75% not making subscription
12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%

Total people after 14 levels is 32,767.

(table fixed to show people per level instead of cumulative total people)

You can already see at this point only about 6.5% of the members will make enough to pay for their subscription, and who do you think is at the top of the pryamid, why the owners of course

[JimSouthworth]

Ferret,
I don't have to take your continuous insults..... back off and we can have a meaningful dialog.... the insults are uncalled for and unjustified......

Coil in the version that is being sold with the initial Kanosis service offering is a superset of a professional services time-accounting system being used by a few law firms. The average cost per seat for time acccounting packages like Coil in the leal industry is sometimes as high as $500/seat. Also, In todays world of identity theft and hacking there is value in some "security by obscurity" by not identifying those clients that are already using those versions of Coil. This is of course in addition to standard VPN and encryption technigues that are used to protect both the "data-in-motion" as well as the "data-at-rest" that are also integrated into our service offering.

As for identifying existing clients, put youself in my shoes.... would you let a corporate enterprise customer talk to a rapid jerk with an obvious chip on their shoulder like you have been presenting ??? in spite of that when I have the proper release from our standard security policies signed by some amiable customer/members we will then still carefully identify them on a "as needed" basis. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't on this.... if we don't you are suspicious, if we do give you the info you will accuse us of supplying a list of presetup "ringers"....... so why ?? In a couple of weeks the final Beta release will roll out and with it the last of the "Launch-able" service elements. The difference in look/feel and the enhanced features of that more polished version will be a substantial improvement to our customers.

[ycchen]

Jim,

I have refered you to the herbalife nightmare at least three times. (twice in the forum, once through PM).

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3826

If you read the thread and still think Herbalife is a fair MLM system ONLY if the downline work hard enough to recruit more people, then we will debate further.

While waiting for Arzel to address your quesiton (second question), here is the third question for Kanosis. Please tell us how different or similar between Kanosis and Herbalife. You might like to invite someone who know the business model better to address this question. Thanks.

Also, you haven't given us ONE corporate that use COIL (beta version :crazy: ), our first question. Or as you have said before, it is a company secret? Come on, Kanosis (... the next google, next microsoft .... next ????) should be able to do better than that. If there is no corporate that pay for the beta version of Coil, then the "presentation" (audiorecording) is obviously a lie. Please make correction accordingly. Thanks.

ADD: Jim, I guess we posted the above thread at the same time. So, you have basically answer the first question -- we cannot tell you (jerks) about our clients. It is an unusual defense because many people are watching this thread as well when they google "kanosis scam" to do their DD. Your answer will not only read by "jerks" but also your potential clients (or should I say "downline" ). If COIL is only used by a few law firms (are they using "coil" or some other software?), then why is it claimed to be so popluar in the Knaosis presentation? May be we have different definition of the word "popular". ;)

Well, fine, at least you finally give us a straight answer for the first question. Thanks.

[Ferret]

That was the answer to the #1 question and isn't that important

When are you going to answer the BIG question?
2 ) Can you or any of your colleagues please address Arzel's statistical question below?
How can you justify that only 6.5% of the people will make a profit?
If you do not understand Arzel's statistics, I am sure he will be more than happy to discuss with you.

But please ask someone who have the ability to address this serious question of statistical fairness.

Thanks
What is your position in the Matrix?
What level are you on?
How much money will you be making?

[blape1]

Follow the money.......

You; blape1 would like a lot of traffic to your website as you will make money off the traffic


First of all, I’m a broke college student in debt over 100K. Secondly, I volunteered over 1,700 hours last year as an AmeriCorps NCCC member. Third, I'm using my site for a class project, and if I make some revenue off it, great. Don’t talk to me about money.

Follow the money??? Your knocking Kanosis, but do you even know what makes a good company. I believe a good company provides beneficial services to both external (individuals, communities, environment) and internal (employees) consumers at a profit.

Lets go hypothetical for a sec. You’re trying to warn people about Kanosis. I’m someone trying to formulate an opinion about Kanosis. If all you do is bash me, how can I agree with you? If I cant agree with you, who can? If your not changing anyone’s opinion, why are you doing this?

I am beginning to think you’re in this for your own personal gains. It’s not the money, its satisfaction. Does this make you a bad person? Because you have a motive?

Please don’t question my motives, unless you enjoy being analyzed yourself. I want to hear what you have to say, just not in that manner.

[Arzel]

Arzel does your model take in the account that each user cell can have 14 level below him in the virtual matrix no matter what physical level he resides on.... so under some conditions a better populated matrix below a given user could produce more money for that person than for some several levels above him..... does that make sense ?? also, later members will be coming in as part of higher value services for which the commisssions will be greater to those just above those cells..... thus another way that lower levels could have greater income than those way up at the top. The key here is that the user community grows fast enought that the actual total levels goes well beyond 14 levels overall, just that each cell never gets paid on anything more than 14 below that cell.

My model does take that partially into consideration as it is an expected value for a person at a given level. The actual variation within a level is more difficult to estimate at this time, especially for those people toward the bottom of a matrix, but I believe I can safely assume that there will be very few people that will buck this treand.

As I understand your model, if you are unable to directly fill all levels of your downline, you will still benefit through the spill over from other members, I will try to make an adjustment to the model to account for this discrepancy. but because of the model which you have described, someone directly below you in your downline can never have more than twice your downline.

For example, you sign up two people and one person in your downline fills his matrix and the other signs up no other people. Because of the one person in your downline you would have approximately 16K to his 32K people under him paying you commission.

However, I can't see this happening, as it is a combination of two rare events in your universe of probable occurances. The difference in dowline between any branch will follow some distribution, and this will require some simulation which frankly is quite difficult to perform without some basic information regarding basic probabilites between branches, which I don't think you will be willing to provide.

This same logic applies if you would only have a series of one signups under each person in your downline, but for each level down, the probability of occurance becomes exponentially unlikely.

I completly understand the concept of cutoff after level 14. That only is important from the standpoint of compensation. To say that you will grow well beyond 14 levels is simply not a likely occurance.

At level 32 you have exceeded the total number of people in the world. Is it possible that one person exceed beyond level 32? Sure, but certainly not for the vast majority of members.

Another thing to consider is that of networking of individuals. I am sure you have heard of the "6 degrees of seperation" theory, in that each person is connected by a minimum of 6 other people. Although this has not yet (to my knowledge) been proven, there is certainly a degree of truth to this theory, and through these connections any one user will soon find themselves marketing after the same people already connected to their matrix, thus making it very unlikely for one branch to grow well beyond another branch. I am currently studying some advanced theory regarding network connections, and may be able to simulate this kind of advanced simulation in the near future, but it is quite difficult.

In any case, any further analysis will only provide additional information on the variance within branches, and will not affect greatly the estimates on means for various levels, and I am quite positive that the average member will never do better than someone at a higher level. This exact percentage is really what is in question, and at this time I would hazard a guess of 90% to 95% of all members will have a lower actual return compared to someone in a higher level.

The final aspect of you model is that of higher compensation packages in the future. To this we can look at game theory models. If a service is worth some value to the average person, than there should be no difference between levels of participation. In other words, simply providing a more expensive feature in the future will add no benefit between levels. If the new services are simply enticement into the model, than no right thinking individual would ever choose them. If they are already members, there is no financial benefit to purchasing additional services, their only hope is that people under them will purchase these services.

In fact I am quite sure that whatever services Kanosis does offer, the vast majority of users will use the least expensive services in order to remain a part of the matrix, but will try to entice those below them to use more expensive services. If additional services are of value then there would be no need to even design Kanosis as a matrix model.

[JimSouthworth]

Arzel,
Take the situation where in few months after a significant number of upper levels have been already filled, a series of business users are sold on a significantly upgraded version of the Kanosis service that is focused on SOHO, telecommute, and other expanded business services and includes several additional packages besides Coil and in fact these packages maybe even more expensive than Coil. So the composite cost per seat per month may be as hypothetically in excess of $100/month. There are business intelligence services, medical records systems, on-line law libraries etc. that clients already pay service providers well in excess of this amount. Your assumption that the cheaper service offering would be still selected isn't always valid here because the financial incentives for work groups of employees or clients of lets say a law firm for example that need access to specific law libraries and etc.

[JimSouthworth]

Arzel,
Take the situation where in few months after a significant number of upper levels have been already filled, a series of business users are sold on a significantly upgraded version of the Kanosis service that is focused on SOHO, telecommute, and other expanded business services and includes several additional packages besides Coil, and in fact these packages maybe even more expensive than Coil. So the composite cost per seat per month may be hypothetically well in excess of $100/month for the services. There are business intelligence services, medical records systems, on-line law libraries, all sorts of specialized computer based tools etc. that clients already pay service providers well in excess of this amount. Your assumption that the cheaper service offering would be still selected isn't always valid here because the financial incentives for work groups of employees or clients of lets say a law firm for example that need access to specific industry law libraries and etc.

[Arzel]

Arzel,
Take the situation where in few months after a significant number of upper levels have been already filled, a series of business users are sold on a significantly upgraded version of the Kanosis service that is focused on SOHO, telecommute, and other expanded business services and includes several additional packages besides Coil, and in fact these packages maybe even more expensive than Coil. So the composite cost per seat per month may be hypothetically well in excess of $100/month for the services. There are business intelligence services, medical records systems, on-line law libraries, all sorts of specialized computer based tools etc. that clients already pay service providers well in excess of this amount. Your assumption that the cheaper service offering would be still selected isn't always valid here because the financial incentives for work groups of employees or clients of lets say a law firm for example that need access to specific industry law libraries and etc.

What is the motivation for a company to use such a service?

I will use a medical institution for example since a have a great deal of knowledge regarding medical information systems.

Most large medical institutions already have advanced EMR (electrionic medical record) systems in place (they are basically neccessary when processing claims through HMO's, Medicare, ect..). Most of these institutions already have their own IntraNet's for information within their institution, and would have little need for an outside provider. Additionally these instituations already have their own VPN's for providing secure access when outside the network.

Probably most important is that of patient privacy laws. Many states already have enacted laws regarding how patient information can be transmitted, and there is absolutly no way any medical record information is going to stored on servers outside their network or transfered via networks outside their own internal IntraNet. In fact I hazard the thought if some medical institution does use your service for such transactions, the potential liabilities could be astronomical.

As far as subscription to medical libraries (similar to law libraries I would assume) which is for primarly access to medical journals and other research, would not be much more useful if I understand the concept of easy access to such information. This information is highly controled regarding useage and payment for copy, I don't see how Kanosis would provide a benefit over existing infrastructure in this area.

And how are you going to convince these companies to use your service when they understand that it has been marketed as an MLM to the general consumer? MLM's already fall into a gray area of legality, and I find it difficult to believe you will get law firms or medical institutions to engage in such a business partnership, regardless of how secure you may be able to make COIL and other services.

If this is your future primary market why does Kanosis simply not focus on them now? To be completely honest, this sounds very similar to many of the scams we encounter, using an "outside investment" lure to ensure future profits for everyone in the matrix.

That aside, I don't see how this changes the general aspect of this being marketed toward the average person. How is the average person going to entice these institutions into their downline (if I am to understand they will benefit from these future endevours). These institutions, especially those that are large, are not going to simply sign up thousands of their employees at a substantial cost without investigating completely how it will benefit them. Additionally they are not going to pay "market price" and will negotiate a deal below what you may market the cost.

None of this really matter, because this is not how Kanosis is marketing itself at present.

[Arzel]

Arzel,
Take the situation where in few months after a significant number of upper levels have been already filled, a series of business users are sold on a significantly upgraded version of the Kanosis service that is focused on SOHO, telecommute, and other expanded business services and includes several additional packages besides Coil, and in fact these packages maybe even more expensive than Coil. So the composite cost per seat per month may be hypothetically well in excess of $100/month for the services. There are business intelligence services, medical records systems, on-line law libraries, all sorts of specialized computer based tools etc. that clients already pay service providers well in excess of this amount. Your assumption that the cheaper service offering would be still selected isn't always valid here because the financial incentives for work groups of employees or clients of lets say a law firm for example that need access to specific industry law libraries and etc.

One additional quesiton.

Why do you need a significant number of upper levels to be filled before offering these services to mainstream companies?

Also, I am not sure what you consider to be a significant number of "upper" levels. It will take a minimum of 262,000 people to fill the top 3 levels (15 people).

[JimSouthworth]

One additional quesiton.

Why do you need a significant number of upper levels to be filled before offering these services to mainstream companies?

Also, I am not sure what you consider to be a significant number of "upper" levels. It will take a minimum of 262,000 people to fill the top 3 levels (15 people).
Okay, now maybe we are getting somewhere..... you are totally wrong.... Under our commission plan for selling Kanosis services, when I have 14 people below me I probably have 3 full levels PERIOD, when I have just over that number I am at break-even and making a profit at 3.5 levels under me, no matter where my physical level starts...... where the heck did you come up with 262,000??? I don't have to have anything except what is right below me filled in to make money from selling the software and Kanosis services to run that software. This is why some people who are making over $4k a month already are not even at the top level so It has actually been shown to me. It is absolutely possible and we already have seen it often where someone further down the sales tree is making more than at least the person who referred him, one level up......

Arzel,
I am intimately familiar with the HIPAA federal regulations (http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/) and the security requirements they need..... the Kanosis environment will meet those now when used responsibly and soon will even meet the US government FIPS 140-2 certifications from NSA and NIST (WE can do it today when needed for a small additional charge). Even the Sabanes Oxley (SOX) requirements that don't stop at international borders for US based multi-national companies are addressed by the standard security envelope we create around a community of interest within Kanosis.

As a side bar on HIPAA, most ticketed violations by Dr.s and Hospitals have been from the HIPAA "Police" finding papers and copies of patient data thrown in the trash without being shredded or burned. This is why keeping and online only copy that is appropriately protected with in the Kanosis system is a compelling reason for medical professionals.

As for the classical VPNs you talk about, most ALL of those operate at layer 2 in the OSI model and usually only create IP tunnels between points. This type of VPN has inherent faults like the one used by FBI Agent, "Robert Hanson" the worst double agent spy in US history used to litterally get many many of our CIA and other "friendly to the US" intelligence agents operating overseas killed. The system we use operates on top of a Java Web Start platform at layer 4 and above. This also makes it agnostic to transport problems so it works over anything that transports "IP" traffic. It also allows us to operate real-time voice and video which it encapsuates "through" a fire wall without have to experience the overhead and distortion that layer 2 systems incurr by using the required proxies and NAT they need. With the Kanosis platform we also can supply an enhanced security envelope that even does "Applications Port tunneling" to completely avoid the security hole that Hanson used. I may not be at home in your world of Theoretical Mathematics, but I know security because it has been integral to my career for 35 years here in the DC area.

[Arzel]

Arzel,
I am intimately familiar with the HIPAA federal regulations (http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/) and the security requirements they need..... the Kanosis environment will meet those now when used responsibly and soon will even meet the US government FIPS 140-2 certifications from NSA and NIST (WE can do it today when needed for a small additional charge). Even the Sabanes Oxley (SOX) requirements that don't stop at international borders for US based multi-national companies are addressed by the standard security envelope we create around a community of interest within Kanosis.

As a side bar on HIPAA, most ticketed violations by Dr.s and Hospitals have been from the HIPAA "Police" finding papers and copies of patient data thrown in the trash without being shredded or burned. This is why keeping and online only copy that is appropriately protected with in the Kanosis system is a compelling reason for medical professionals.

As for the classical VPNs you talk about, most ALL of those operate at layer 2 in the OSI model and usually only create IP tunnels between points. This type of VPN has inherent faults like the one used by FBI Agent, "Robert Hanson" the worst double agent spy in US history used to litterally get many many of our CIA and other "friendly to the US" intelligence agents operating overseas killed. The system we use operates on top of a Java Web Start platform at layer 4 and above. This also makes it agnostic to transport problems so it works over anything that transports "IP" traffic. It also allows us to operate real-time voice and video which it encapsuates "through" a fire wall without have to experience the overhead and distortion that layer 2 systems incurr by using the required proxies and NAT they need. With the Kanosis platform we also can supply an enhanced security envelope that even does "Applications Port tunneling" to completely avoid the security hole that Hanson used. I may not be at home in your world of Theoretical Mathematics, but I know security because it has been integral to my career for 35 years here in the DC area.

I am not saying that Kanosis can't provide an adequate level of security, I am saying I don't see any large institutions using it. Perhaps some small Rural Healthcare Providers that are not already part of an existing health care network, but those are dissapearing fast as more and more RHP's link up with regional centers.

You have to look at it from a cost-benefit analysis.

You have a large medical facility of 10,000+ Providers, Nursing staff, and associated support staff. These institutions already have full IT support staff and integrated DSS (Decision Support System) centers in charge of the data coming through the system. How are you going to convice the directors of these institutions to use Kanosis verus having their own in-house IT support control the information? I understand that you may be able to provide additional security, but is it significantly greater than what they can already provide to themselves?

It is not possible to make a system completely safe, thus there will still be an associated risk, so you would have to show that COIL and other software will be superior to a level to make this risk worth taking, and any RHP within such a regional network is going to use whatever the regional center uses. Finally, if you can show the value of Kanosis and COIL or other software services, these institutions will ne very slow to react. There will be months of discussion and analysis, plus there will be internal disagreement. Any internal IT department is going to say "We can do this ourselves, why pay someone outside our institution to do what you are already paying us to do?"

Even if they can't do it, they will spend months working on their own solutions. And then there is the sheer magnitude of data these institutions are dealing with, much of which is stored on huge mainframe servers through contracts with companies like IBM, and you know they are going to be consulted.

You have a great deal of knowledge regarding InterNet security I am sure, but I don't think your company has fully analyzed the corporate culture and how resistance to change will be an overiding factor in such a paradigm switch.

But this is hard to debate, you have a belief based off your belief in your product. And I have years of experience within the corporate world regarding this kind of change where even the smallest "improvement" is met with a great deal of resistance. It took me a year and a half just to convice my department to move a small aspect of our work into an integrated on-line reporting feature because of concerns over data privacy.

Will Kanosis be in the future? Maybe, but it will take much longer than a few months, in my opinion.

[concerned]

Ferret,
I don't have to take your continuous insults..... back off and we can have a meaningful dialog.... the insults are uncalled for and unjustified......

Where was the insults? I didn't see any. I read where he said there wouldn't be enough people in the world for your matrix to work. Is that the insult?

Also, In todays world of identity theft and hacking there is value in some "security by obscurity" by not identifying those clients that are already using those versions of Coil.

That's a huge pant load if I have ever heard of one, but it reveals lots of information for us smart users. If the clients are affraid of people hacking into Coil just by making it public who uses it, then the only conclusion to be drawn is that Coil is not that secure. When I shop for firewalls, which is the main security device on networks, I often times see testimonials from real clients using the equipment. If they aren't affraid to give a testimonial there, why won't they give a testimonial about Coil?

As for identifying existing clients, put youself in my shoes.... would you let a corporate enterprise customer talk to a rapid jerk with an obvious chip on their shoulder like you have been presenting ??? in spite of that when I have the proper release from our standard security policies signed by some amiable customer/members we will then still carefully identify them on a "as needed" basis.

The answer is yes, I would. But more importantly, you don't need them to talk to the person. A professionally written testimonial from someone about how great the product is would suffice. Do you have any?

[concerned]

Follow the money??? Your knocking Kanosis, but do you even know what makes a good company.

I don't know who you are talking to, but I will answer since I am knocking them also. Yes I do know what it takes to make a good business. I have a business degree. I can tell you that the unethical marketing ploy they are using does NOT make a good company. A good product at a good price makes a good company thrive, not the false promise of making money from making a purchase.


I believe a good company provides beneficial services to both external (individuals, communities, environment) and internal (employees) consumers at a profit.

Good definition, but you forgot something here. You didn't mention good ethics and you didn't mention staying within the law here. You can have successful (profit wise) companies that are unethical. Take "Ford Motor" for example. They are profitable. When they made the Ford Pinto, they knew that the cars could blow up. They also knew that the fix was a very cheap $10 part. What they decided though, what that it was cheaper to have a few cars blow up and settle lawsuits than it was to replace millions of $10 parts. Did that make them a "good company?" According to your definition it did, but it doesn't to me. That is why I refuse to purchase any Ford products to this day.

[Webwatch]

Hi Jim
I'm just trying to work this out
This is why some people who are making over $4k a month already are not even at the top level
If these people are making $4k a month and are not on the top level it does indeed seem like Kanosis is taking off very quickly as you must have over 8000 members already in order for two in the pyramid to earn this much.

Correct me if i'm wrong but if you have 4 members earning this much does that mean you have over 16000 members. I'm working on the basis of 1 member needs 4000 in their downline to earn over $4000.

Nice too see Kanosis using google adsense on the homepage to add a bit more revenue.

[JimSouthworth]

I am not saying that Kanosis can't provide an adequate level of security, I am saying I don't see any large institutions using it. Perhaps some small Rural Healthcare Providers that are not already part of an existing health care network, but those are dissapearing fast as more and more RHP's link up with regional centers.

You have to look at it from a cost-benefit analysis.
Arzel, you make my point for me in your argument.... this is why I am so accepting of the MLM approach to selling the Kanosis service bundle. In the case of small business and medium to small group practices whether it be medical, architecture, Law, independent engineers, etc. there is a real opportunity to speed the acceptance and overcome the initial skepticism of need for change using the financial incentive. The businessmen in this sector are enormously frugal and see any additional source of income as attractive.... especially one that also creates a "sticky" environment for them to use with their own customer base as well. Client retention in all the cases but medical is an additional incentive. You are dead-on with respect to the BIG guys. Their inhouse IT controlls their very lives.... and if it is like what we have observed with Coil, the bigger law firms want to control it and run it themselves on in-house servers.....

[Arzel]

Okay, now maybe we are getting somewhere..... you are totally wrong.... Under our commission plan for selling Kanosis services, when I have 14 people below me I probably have 3 full levels PERIOD, when I have just over that number I am at break-even and making a profit at 3.5 levels under me, no matter where my physical level starts...... where the heck did you come up with 262,000??? I don't have to have anything except what is right below me filled in to make money from selling the software and Kanosis services to run that software. This is why some people who are making over $4k a month already are not even at the top level so It has actually been shown to me. It is absolutely possible and we already have seen it often where someone further down the sales tree is making more than at least the person who referred him, one level up......


When you said fill the top levels, I assumed you meant filling their matricies to completion.

I never said it wasn't possible for a lower member to do better, I said that it was very unlikely. I am still trying to work out a distribution for different levels of fill downline, and determine the proper distribution, but I can tell you this.

For an income of $4k you need approximately 4,000 users. 4,000 users would generate at most $63k per month. I have yet been able to estimate the distribution rate through levels accurately to account for the scenario you outlined. The only way for such an occurance would be for one branch in either level 2 or 3 to have accumulated a far greater downline that the other branch. In any scenario I run however I can only account for 2 to 4 having attained such an income based off 4,000 members..

If you would provide the total number of users at that point, and the number of members at levels 5, 10 and 15 I could determine interlevel probability fill rates.

[JimSouthworth]

just to make a quick point, of that $63k you highlight, about 77% goes right back out to the members in the matrix as soon as they have someone under them as comissions for their sales..... we operate typically on about 23%... this is based on actual numbers

[JimSouthworth]

Webwatch,
I'm not sure what assumptions you are making other than maybe that you may think the entire matrix is filled out..... it only takes about 4000 users to get to that number by my model which is based on the actual data base... there is obviously a disconnect here....

[Arzel]

just to make a quick point, of that $63k you highlight, about 77% goes right back out to the members in the matrix as soon as they have someone under them as comissions for their sales..... we operate typically on about 23%... this is based on actual numbers

That amount was based off a 70% return back into the system through 5% commissions on 14 levels. I was using that amount as a basis for the total pool of commissions available toward the 4,000 people in the matrix.

[JimSouthworth]

Where was the insults? I didn't see any. I read where he said there wouldn't be enough people in the world for your matrix to work. Is that the insult??
JimSouthwind ??? at least I use my own REAL name and don't have to hide behind a psuedonymn

[Webwatch]

Jim
I'm not implying anything other than to determine how many members Kanosis has-If as you have been told there are some members earning $4k a month then taking that as a minimum of 2 members you must already have approx 8000 Kanosians or more.(Based on one member earning $1.10 from every member beneath them in their downline).

Would this be correct.

There is no trickery in this question and no alterior motive I am just trying to learn how Kanosis is working and how quick it is growing.

[Arzel]

Hi Jim
I'm just trying to work this out

If these people are making $4k a month and are not on the top level it does indeed seem like Kanosis is taking off very quickly as you must have over 8000 members already in order for two in the pyramid to earn this much.

Correct me if i'm wrong but if you have 4 members earning this much does that mean you have over 16000 members. I'm working on the basis of 1 member needs 4000 in their downline to earn over $4000.

Nice too see Kanosis using google adsense on the homepage to add a bit more revenue.

Webwatch,

The actual number of members in anyone level is an unknown quantity at this time. I am still trying to model the distribution.

In a perfect matrix/pryamid, each level would fill before a new level starts, but in the case of Kanosis it is possible for a member to have more people underneath them than someone in the same level. It is also possible to have more people underneath you than someone in a level above you that is in a seperate branch.

It is not possible to have more members underneath you than someone that is directly in your upline, unless you have filled your matrix past a certain level, because by definition everyone in your downline would also be in their downline to the point of them reaching 14 levels. So in theory this is possible, but it cannot be a regular occurrance simply because of the laws of large numbers falling into normal distribution.

What I am currently trying to model is the following.

Level 0 (1 person - 100 %full)
Level 1 (2 people - Most likely 100% full)
Level 2 (4 people - ML 100% full)
Level 3 (8 people - ML 100% full)
Level 4 (16 people - ML 100% full)
Level 5 (32 people - ML >= 99% full)
Level 6 (64 people - ML >= 98% full)
Level 7 (128 people - ML >= 94% full)
Level 8 (256 people - ML >= 88% full)
Level 9 (512 people - ML >= 77% full)
Level 10 (1,024 people - ML >= 61% full)
Level 11 (2,048 people - ML >= 41% full)
Level 12 (4,096 people - ML >= 22% full)
Level 13 (8,192 people - ML >= 9% full)
Level 14 (16,384 people - ML >= 2% full)
Level 15 (32,768 people - ML < 1% full)
Level 16 and above are either completely empty or have very few people at this time.

The above model accounts for approximately 4,500 people total.

The actual distribution must follow something like this, and if given enough information I can model the distribution. because of this it is possible to have 4,000 or more people below you even though the total number of people in the matrix would not dictate this.

For example. The people in level 3 (8 total) have about 4,400 people total below them. It is possible (although highly unlikely) that one of them has 4,000 and the other 7 have 400 total between them in there downline.

In level 2 (4 people total) also have about 4,400 people total below them. It is more likely that one of these 4 has 4,000 people below them with 400 among the other 3.

In level 1 (2 people) they each would have an average of 2,200 people below them, so it is most likely that one of these people has 4,000 and the other 400 below them in this example.

Since Jim stated that there is someone at $4k and is not at the top, they must be in level 1, 2, 3.... but as the levels go up the probability of such an occurrance become exponentially unlikely.

With a little more information I should be able to model the entire distribution.

[blape1]

Good definition, but you forgot something here. You didn't mention good ethics and you didn't mention staying within the law here. You can have successful (profit wise) companies that are unethical. Take "Ford Motor" for example. They are profitable. When they made the Ford Pinto, they knew that the cars could blow up. They also knew that the fix was a very cheap $10 part. What they decided though, what that it was cheaper to have a few cars blow up and settle lawsuits than it was to replace millions of $10 parts. Did that make them a "good company?" According to your definition it did, but it doesn't to me. That is why I refuse to purchase any Ford products to this day.

Leaving out ethics in my definition of a good company was no accident. Let’s look at what I said “I believe a good company provides beneficial services to both external (individuals, communities, environment) and internal (employees) consumers at a profit.” When I say both external and internal consumers, its intent is for businesses to consider everyone and everything stakeholders in their operation. It shouldn’t be a question of ethics. Acting in such a way that benefits all stakeholders (as well as possible), will make those tuff decisions for you. As far as the legality point, any action that results from carefully and intelligently weighing the interests of all stakeholders will never be illegal.

[Ferret]

Where was the insults? I didn't see any. I read where he said there wouldn't be enough people in the world for your matrix to work. Is that the insult?
JimSouthwind ??? at least I use my own REAL name and don't have to hide behind a psuedonymn[SIC]
lol lol You are more than a little sensitive....
I didn't remember your name and was going from memory so that was NOT an insult
It was a typo.....I assure you no offense was intended
Maybe a freudian slip :D at best, now that you have made it an issue ;)

Every smart person online uses a pseudonym for obvious reasons
I am not representing a business so who cares who I am?
If I was representing my business I would use my real name

Please address the issues like how you wouldn't run out of people using a
matrix to grow your business and leave my identity out of it

Kanosis will grow very fast for 6 months to a year, stall and then crash
It is the way matrices work
Please do some research on others that have come and gone......

If Kanosis was not using a matrix scheme you would have very few people signed up using your BETA software (And still paying FULL price) now

They would have waited until you had released the full software and services and it had been REVIEWED and TESTED
You are growing fast because of INCOME POTENTIAL the users see and not because of your actual service

I have never heard of being charged to use BETA software :confused:
Does anyone know when this has happened if ever?
This has to be a first

Kanosis likes to mention Skype; who gained their rapid sucess from letting people use their BETA software for FREE and the basic service is still FREE

Can you imagine what would have happened if Skype had started out charging for the BETA and using a MATRIX SCHEME to promote it!!!

It would have been a disaster for Skype and doubt if they would even be in existence today

However Skype had a very good product and is a reputable company which marketed itself in a legitimate way

Who knows what Kanosis's product really is right now?
and their Matrix marketing scheme will ruin their reputation in the near future........if it hasn't already

[Arzel]

Leaving out ethics in my definition of a good company was no accident. Let’s look at what I said “I believe a good company provides beneficial services to both external (individuals, communities, environment) and internal (employees) consumers at a profit.” When I say both external and internal consumers, its intent is for businesses to consider everyone and everything stakeholders in their operation. It shouldn’t be a question of ethics. Acting in such a way that benefits all stakeholders (as well as possible), will make those tuff decisions for you. As far as the legality point, any action that results from carefully and intelligently weighing the interests of all stakeholders will never be illegal.

Blape1,

You have a lot to learn about business.

Ford, in its decision to not change the location of the fuel tank on the Pinto, was based off what they thought was best for all stakeholders and consumers. They traded etics for value, and in the process used an unreasobably low value for human life without considering the potential result of their decision. This almost resulted in the complete destruction of Ford.

Ford had already developed a better placement for the Pinto, but had decided that the average person would prefer to have a larger trunk and from a cost-benefit perspective the cost of fuel tank movement, it was not worth the estimated increased cost.

Perhaps when you go further in college you will learn that business ethics is an extremely important foundation of a solid business.

[blape1]

A stakeholder is anyone affected by an action. Ethical decision making involves doing what’s best for all who are affected, correct? I don’t understand where you see the difference.

Within the past ten years we have all witnessed cooperate scandals and the devastating effect on our economy. If these companies, along with the Ford example, had carefully weighed the possible implications of their actions and made decisions that were in the best interest of all those affected, would the same decisions have been made? Is not doing what’s better for everyone affected indeed ethical?

When I define a good company I don’t say “it should make stuff, make that stuff legally, and make that stuff ethically”, No. I stick with my definition that encompasses ethics and legality and brings it to a new level: make decisions weighing all stakeholders; treat your own benefits from a decision equally to those of an ANY individual stakeholder.

And let me assure you that my generation is receiving a ton of preparation for ethical decision making. Ethics and sustainability are the cornerstones of my college’s business institution.

[concerned]

just to make a quick point, of that $63k you highlight, about 77% goes right back out to the members in the matrix as soon as they have someone under them as comissions for their sales..... we operate typically on about 23%... this is based on actual numbers

WOW!!! 77% goes straight to people selling the software. That means that your software is overvalued in price by more than 300%. I think you just lost a lot of customers by stating that here. Who wants to pay for something that is overpriced? Here's a thought. Why not use a different marketing stragety. {I don't remember the pricing, so I will use fake pricing} Why not say that the industry has valued this software at $100, but as an introductory price, you are providing it at $23 and pass the savings onto the customers. That seems like a much more logical marketing stragety, don't you think?

[Ferret]

WOW!!! 77% goes straight to people selling the software. That means that your software is overvalued in price by more than 300%. I think you just lost a lot of customers by stating that here. Who wants to pay for something that is overpriced?
Kanosis charges $22 a month for COIL and 23% of that is $5.06 which is what they could be charging :crazy:

The other 77% of the money is Mainly going to the TOP of the pyramid which has already been filled with Kanosis founders, insiders and friends ;)

Kanosis and JimS have already claimed COIL is worth from $100 to $500

[Arzel]

A stakeholder is anyone affected by an action. Ethical decision making involves doing what’s best for all who are affected, correct? I don’t understand where you see the difference.

Within the past ten years we have all witnessed cooperate scandals and the devastating effect on our economy. If these companies, along with the Ford example, had carefully weighed the possible implications of their actions and made decisions that were in the best interest of all those affected, would the same decisions have been made? Is not doing what’s better for everyone affected indeed ethical?

When I define a good company I don’t say “it should make stuff, make that stuff legally, and make that stuff ethically”, No. I stick with my definition that encompasses ethics and legality and brings it to a new level: make decisions weighing all stakeholders; treat your own benefits from a decision equally to those of an ANY individual stakeholder.

And let me assure you that my generation is receiving a ton of preparation for ethical decision making. Ethics and sustainability are the cornerstones of my college’s business institution.

I understand what you are saying, but who decides what is better for everyone? In the case of Kanosis, they have decided that their matrix model is beneficial to everyone, but that is simply not the case when you look at the math.

[ycchen]

Webwatch,
I'm not sure what assumptions you are making other than maybe that you may think the entire matrix is filled out..... it only takes about 4000 users to get to that number by my model which is based on the actual data base... there is obviously a disconnect here....
The ultimate question is the income distribution of this 4000 users. How many percentage will get 4K?! In a pyramid scheme like kanosis, there is NO way you can get 4K if you do not have 4000 members below you according to Arzel and Webwatch's calculation (correct me if I am wrong).

Yes, you can have a very skewed pyramid (as Arzel is trying to show) that make lower level (not lower than 3rd tier! ) making more money, but the money still comes from those at below that particular person (4000 minimum, right?).

Jim, you might like to show us your entire formula to justify your maths that justify "fairness" in your scheme for everyone. Using one extreme example based on a very skewed pyramid senerio is not the best arguement. Why? Pyramid-style recruting scheme is about few winner and lots of loser. Using a few winner as example to justify the scheme is not doing justice to the majority who participate in the scheme.

I am sure you know exacthly what I am talking about. Please kindly show us a general picture (not exceptional case, or potential case) and your full mathematical formula that can justify "fairness" to everyone. Thanks.

[Webwatch]

Okay, So my understanding at the moment is that Kanosis has over 8000 members.
Based on what we have been told that at least 2 people are earning over $4k per month. The position of the members in the pyramid paying $44 in order for 2 to earn $4k is not that critical as long as they are in the 2 earning $4k downline.
This has now surpassed the statistically crital 5000 first members.
So in a fair world for those 8000 to each earn over $4k Kanosis would need 32 million members. Although before I'm jumped on due to differing levels of the pyramid some could earn this amount before others.

So if I was a new member thinking of joining Kanosis i would look at is this way:
I need to pay $22 a month to stay in the matrix in the hope of anything in return by enticing people to join below me.
Now I would ask myself the question what am I getting for my $22 well if 77% is going up the Pyramid I would be paying $16.94 to other members of Kanosis and $5.06 for the software (I wouldn't know this unless i'd been to this forum).
It would be at this point I would think well what are my chances of breaking even by recruiting people beneath me.
Now being a fussy consumer I would look around google to see what is being said about Kanosis and probably find many sites advertising it and forums discussing it (basing my research after the so called launch), so as Kanosis would now have 8000 members or more trying to recruit new members I would think to myself that the market is over saturated (strangely similar to Herbalife) and paying $16.94 to others just for the privelidge of being in the scheme is not worth it.

However if I thought Coil software was essential in order for me to continue in life would $22 a month be a fair value, for this further research is needed into exactly what coil can do for me and if I can get the same service elsewhere for less money or dare I say it free.

Kanosis also makes many disclaimers that making money from joining should not be the primary consideration and no guarantees are in place that an income can be earned from participating. Hopefully being a fussy consumer I would also have read all these and not be caught up in the hype.

Please note in this post I am making many assumptions and generalisations (I can use big words to make myself look clever although the spelling may not be correct) but I am basing it on what I already know and what I believe the targeted customer base for Kanosis would consider after its launch when most of the habitual pyramid players have already joined due to this pre-launch fiasco we are in at the moment.

I have not used hyperthetical assumptions of large corporate clients getting involved with Kanosis to sway my decision as being an average consumer (I believe there may be a few million of us) I wouldn't understand it.

[ycchen]

.....
I have not used hyperthetical assumptions of large corporate clients getting involved with Kanosis to sway my decision as being an average consumer (I believe there may be a few million of us) I wouldn't understand it. Interesting thought process, Webwatch. I hope everyone do their DD this way, which is very unlikely because of all the misinformation from all the promoting sites out there competiting to recruit you to be their downline. :shake:

I heard that JimSouthworth is also building his downline! Is that true or just a rumour? May be Jim can shed some light on his position in the whole picture.

Okay. My original question is: Even if some corporations are going to pay more for the beta Coil service, where will they fit into the pyramid? Do they need to be under some individual clients? If not, how would their 77% contribution share among the hungry people in the pyramid?

[itstheone]

Wow,
I've read this whole thread i just couldn't leave it.

If this was truly a legit company with integrity, everyone who joined before the date was originally pushed out should be able to use it for free, then anyone who joins and the date is pushed out again should get it for free. I can't believe this is legit at the mo for that simple reason.

But i guess this is just about building downlines and getting people to pay subs.

It's all the same. When we come out of pre-launch we're gonna have corporate clients yadda yadda yadda bigger than Google yadda yadda yadda.

I wonder if Jim has been suckered into this himself. No company does pre-launches and expects people to pay top whack for a beta (oops staretail).

Not convinced.

As was mentioned before, Jim, why not give one of these people a free week using the software, then at least we'd get a review of it, something that is sadly lacking to date.

John

p.s.

Kanosians, what the hell is that, is this a cult? (ymer's)

Flowmaster quote

Do not get distracted, it will cause you to "fall off" the mountain, before you reach the top.

Think we've been here before :shake:

[Webwatch]

Hi itstheone and welcome to the debate.

This thread may turn into a classic (like MYDV which is also worth a read) but I must stress to my knowledge not in any way connected to Kanosis or any of its founders.

Its time I introduced myself:

Many times during this thread personnal credentials have been requested in order to undermine arguments being thrown into the debate. Some posts have also given me the impression that my name, address and phone number should be at the top of every post.
Just to make it clear I don't wish to be judged on what I have done or may have done in the past or what aclomplishments I have made in life only on what I say.
I intend to be around for the duration and will be the first to apologise if any thing I have said turns out to be either unfounded or totally inaccurate.

If this makes me seem a coward thats upto all to decide but I will fight for my opinion and my right to post it.

It is only through forums like this that allow both sides of an argument to be presented (within the rules of course) that freedom of speech can truly be expressed without the threat of repercussions which deny anyone the right to speak freeley.

We are all able to decide what is a genuine argument and a downright attack on someones credibilty. Hopefully my posts have provided constructive arguments to an informed debate, I will now go and read them all again to see if i've dropped any clangers.

[JimSouthworth]

I heard that JimSouthworth is also building his downline! Is that true or just a rumour? May be Jim can shed some light on his position in the whole picture. [/u]To be completely honest, I have not spent any time on doing this yet, I absolutely intend to as soon as I have the time I always dedicate to anything I do. I will probably add my first down-lines this weekend. Right now, I am completely saturated getting the next two clusters of servers installed and upgraded.... and trying my best to answer the on-going dialog here and on other forums that need my input until our newly hired customer service people take over soon, both in LA and Cyprus. OBTW, I am not avoiding any of your questions, but I have some exact clarifications on our algorythm that have been raised by some of the anaylsis here on MW. Like for example, I mis-spoke we have a couple of mebers who have an agreggate between them of $4K combined in different downstreams.... I misunderstood what was said to me.

[Ferret]

To be completely honest, I have not spent any time on doing this yet, I absolutely intend to as soon as I have the time I always dedicate to anything I do. I will probably add my first down-lines this weekend.
OBTW, I am not avoiding any of your questions, but I have some exact clarifications on our algorythm that have been raised by some of the anaylsis here on MW. Like for example, I mis-spoke we have a couple of mebers who have an agreggate between them of $4K combined in different downstreams.... I misunderstood what was said to me.
OK,......

1) How many members does Kanosis have now?

2) What level of the matrix are you, JimSouthworth on?

3) How much are you earning on your downline right now?

Thanks

[JimSouthworth]

OK,......

1) How many members does Kanosis have now?
one of the facts I waiting for an update to from Cyprus.... I'm not going to guess since youse guys use this number to drive so many of your models. When I get it and give it, it will be accurate

2) What level of the matrix are you, JimSouthworth on?
I'm not sure but it will be at least below level 3 or so, but it doesn't matter, my 14 levels start right there.....

3) How much are you earning on your downline right now?
easy answer, just as I previously stated, I have NOT started yet, by next week I'll have a few below me

Thanks
I do realize that entering into this more personal discussion can be as much a trap as anything. The classic leading questions and then the immediate following of an expected attack on my own lack of participation OR the attack on my my active participation..... BUT, I have been completely straight with everybody here as I always am..... to be clear, I believe in the company and its service products. I also believe that our marketing approach IS different than that which has been done by others using this MLM model for web based businesses. I certainly believe it will be successful beyond all of our expectations, especially youse guys..... but as I have been with you since the beginning these are honest answers to best of my first hand knowledge or the responses from other members of the executive team who are themselves honest and well meaning also and I trust.

[Arzel]

To be completely honest, I have not spent any time on doing this yet, I absolutely intend to as soon as I have the time I always dedicate to anything I do. I will probably add my first down-lines this weekend. Right now, I am completely saturated getting the next two clusters of servers installed and upgraded.... and trying my best to answer the on-going dialog here and on other forums that need my input until our newly hired customer service people take over soon, both in LA and Cyprus. OBTW, I am not avoiding any of your questions, but I have some exact clarifications on our algorythm that have been raised by some of the anaylsis here on MW. Like for example, I mis-spoke we have a couple of mebers who have an agreggate between them of $4K combined in different downstreams.... I misunderstood what was said to me.

This fits with my analysis of your matrix model. I think you will be quite interested in my updated results when you are able to provide information on membership at different levels.

You will really be able to see how such a model does not equate equally through different levels.

[Webwatch]

I do realize that entering into this more personal discussion can be as much a trap as anything. The classic leading questions and then the immediate following of an expected attack on my own lack of participation OR the attack on my my active participation..... BUT, I have been completely straight with everybody here as I always am..... to be clear, I believe in the company and its service products.
Hi Jim
From my point of view I welcome your comments here and always try and view them with the attention they deserve. I make no attempt to trap you in any way and without your prescence here this discussion would become to one sided.
Also there are probably many prospective Kanosisans who view this thread so comments from both sides of the fence are essential.

One quick question if you where starting your own downline wouldn't you be at the top level otherwise you are in someone elses using their refferal name to join Kanosis. Surely you dont need a referral name and can join at any level you want for the amount of work you have done i would suspect no lower than level 3. In fact if I was involved at the begining in any consultancy form I would want a guarantee of a reserved position in the matrix (as well as a nice fee for all my efforts).
As your participation here must have gone above and beyond the call of duty I wouldn't begrudge you either.

[JimSouthworth]

One quick question if you where starting your own downline wouldn't you be at the top level otherwise you are in someone elses using their refferal name to join Kanosis. Surely you dont need a referral name and can join at any level you want for the amount of work you have done i would suspect no lower than level 3. In fact if I was involved at the begining in any consultancy form I would want a guarantee of a reserved position in the matrix (as well as a nice fee for all my efforts).
As your participation here must have gone above and beyond the call of duty I wouldn't begrudge you either.
Others may view this with skepticism, but the "fair" thing to do for me was to come in under the guy who referred me to this business opportunity and it is my suspicion he is under one other person who brought him into this business as well..... my employment and my participation in actually selling services are obviously not completely mutually exclusive, however, my primary focus is to perform the technology based tasks I was hired to execute on, PERIOD.

[JNRAY]

How much more do you guys want to hear until you finally see that Kanosis is no scam. Jim has answered so many of your questions in an excellent manner but you are just determined to view Kanosis as scam. That's ok. No one blames you for that. But why should Jim spend all of his time answering your never ending critizing posts if you have anyway made up your mind already. Herbalife has proven that it is not Scam although there might have been some problems like with any company. There is no perfect company and you will always find people who are disappointed. There are probably a lot more people who have been blessed by Herbalife than have been disappointed. That's how you have to judge the company. Kanosis will not be perfect. But I believe that the people behind it, with their experience and knowledge, will do everything to make it as perfect as possible.
Why will Kanosis be that successful? Because it will offer great products.
If you see a great product that you could really use ,would you not buy it because it would fulfill the purpose you want it for? Kanosis will offer such products; yes, it uses MLM but Jim clearly explained why in some of the previous posts.

[Ferret]

How much more do you guys want to hear until you finally see that Kanosis is no scam. Jim has answered so many of your questions in an excellent manner but you are just determined to view Kanosis as scam.

Why will Kanosis be that successful? Because it will offer great products.

If you see a great product that you could really use ,would you not buy it because it would fulfill the purpose you want it for? Kanosis will offer such products; yes, it uses MLM but Jim clearly explained why in some of the previous posts.
How do you know Kanosis will offer great products??????

Do you work for them?

What is your stake in this?

Do you have inside info?

Are you a psychic?

Are you a Kanosis "investor"?

That is part of the problem that Kanosis is only offering a BETA right now and no one knows what COIL is all about or what future products they will offer

The main problem is that it is being marketed as an unsustainable Matrix scheme that will unfairly reward those at the top of the pyramid at the expense of the majority at the bottom
If Kanosis was not being sold through a pyramid scheme it would not be debated here

Jim or any one else has NOT answered these concerns

Do you want to give it a shot?

PS:I would say there are many more people UNHAPPY with Herbal Life than those that have been "blessed" :D

[nepatriots]

I agree with JNRAY… there are no “perfect” companies out there. You can google Microsoft or Paypal and find plenty of sites out there bitching about their practices. The bottom line is Kanosis is offering a good product that people can use and they are improving on it… they aren’t just sitting on their butts trying to scam people.

Everything that I have heard come from this company has come to fruition… yes they did push back the launch but that happens to any software company out there. There are going to be growing pains… any new company has them.

I don’t know of any other company where one of the top officers would spend so much time discussing this on a forum like this. I applaud Jim for doing this. I think we all understand your trepidation on MLM’s, and I can appreciate what this forum tries to do, but not ALL of them are scams… but that doesn’t seem to matter here.


How do you know Kanosis will offer great products??????

Are you a psychic?


No... I am not a phsychic... but I am pretty sure you aren't either.

[Webwatch]

At the end of the day we cannot forget that Kanosis, although a Hybrid and not fully MLM, is still MLM and will sell a product in order for people to promote it and get paid for it. Only that this company sells a very good product and pays 70%!!! back to the users. If you are not at all interested in earning any money then dont join. Why would someone join an MLM without wanting to make some financial gain???

Hello Nepatriots and welcome back Jnray I have quoted one of your earlier posts as it helps to explain my argument. It helps show the true nature of MLM and that they are joined to achieve financial gain. But the problem i have is that many users of Kanosis will not acheive Financial gain as it takes 30 referalls in you direct downline to break even.
To acheive Financial Independance (I will take this as $2K a month for the average person with a mortgage and average living expenses) you would need to have over 2000 people in your direct downline, even with overspill from members above and beside you in the matrix this is going to be difficult.

With so many members competing for referrals either online by website marketing, through ebay (its only a matter of time) or other forums I believe the market will be oversaturated as soon or even if Kanosis launches.

The similarities between Kanosis and Herbalife are unmistakable and if as said earlier Herbalife has a good reputation this will enhance the Kanosis one but if Herbalife has more failures than succeses the damage to Kanosis will have been inherited from its initial conception.

In favour for Kanosis I will say that it does seem to have what many believe is a valued product which will give it some longevity over other Pyramid schemes, how long for will be the deciding factor and anything I say will not change this.

As I always use the phrase Pyramid Scheme I justify its usage as Kanosis uses a pyramid selling structure where the main pull is the potential to acheive Financial Freedom from recruiting new members which I suspect is mentioned in most of the conference calls.

As the initial sign up fee for Kanosis is $59 many will be enticed to join in the early stages but its long term success will depend on the recruitment of new members and the abilty of the current ones to stay in the scheme. If over time Kanosis introduces new products and services to keep members involved then it may indeed become a more attractive proposition but if all it does is use the pull of $22 a month to make huge potential returns then its long term existence seems very bleak indeed.

As I'm only one small voice in a very large crowd everyone should make their own decision, all i can do is give one opinion.

[nepatriots]

Webwatch... I do respect your opinion.

I don’t have any grandeur idea that I am going to be making enough money on this to retire… maybe I will make enough to use this software for free though (please don't preach to me on how much that will take... I have heard it already).

I will say that I am also excited about the other part of this Kanosis idea… and that is the community that is growing. Unlike myspace.com, where any yahoo can create something, I am hoping that the money people have to put up will deter those who want to waist web space on nothing important.

[Webwatch]

Hi Nepatriots
Sounds like you know what your getting in to.
I'm not preaching, just stating info from the Kanosis site.

[Looking]

Hi all,
Have taken half the day to read this entire thread. It's better than a soap.
My reason is because I purchased Coil despite my experienced reservations. However whilst trying to download the software a popup informed me that the site did not have a legitimit digital signiture! I decided to take a step back.As yet I don't Know what Ive got or not.

I think Jim is probably a good engineer who is just starting to go through the matrix learning curve, by the time he is finished he will Know who his real freinds are Herbelifer-Execs or not. I actualy agree with some of his thinking as the same idea of building a company quickly this way with little dedt burden accurred to me 1996. Though as yet despite trying I still have not made a penny out of anyones MLM networks. Perhaps I'm too honest. :head:

Why are his experienced freinds leaving him so isolated in this discusion? :shake:
Surely its' because they themselves no better.

This launch is very akin to Myvideotalk.com another company which last year launched in a similiar fashion Video email and was certainly selling its beta software for the Community Package in advance of official Launch. Have any of you checked out MVT?
I suspect many of the same team leaders are now involved with Kanosis.

I would have liked a 30day trial of Coil. I had hoped this software would protect me whilst surfing other sites it seems that is not the case and I suppose I,ll have to continue with applying a plethera of anti virus softwares and all the extra time those hassles cost.

Any way I,ll let you all know how I get on . :rolleyes:

Pardon the spelling.

[JimSouthworth]

How do you know Kanosis will offer great products??????

<snip>

That is part of the problem that Kanosis is only offering a BETA right now and no one knows what COIL is all about or what future products they will offer
Ferret, Maybe I haven't been clear. Let me say this again for your sake this time. The Kanosis system that has been rolled out so far is in-fact a late Beta release of Kanosis but not so for the internal engine of Coil. The look and feel of the Kanosis user interface is being polished with the help of input from our members. Coil itself is a working and production system not a beta. Other enhancements specifically new applications to be added to both systems have been put under contract and are now in the process of being "productized" and integrated into Kanosis in addition to Coil.

We will leave the status of Beta on all componets in the next few weeks for the user interface and start a series of upgraded product releases, no longer any Beta. Hundreds of members have already set up their small businesses and work groups using the features of Coil and the umbrella system of Kanosis all by themselves even given the present level of documentation we have released. The "look and feel" upgrades along with their training documents and movies will be completed and then we will ask both press and qualified individuals to evaluate the new release.

There is no sense in doing that with the present interface, the older version of the Java webstart platform and features we have been using, as well as the data base systems we use as the core of user/member operations when the new improved version is already running in the internal test process.

The main problem is that it is being marketed as an unsustainable Matrix scheme that will unfairly reward those at the top of the pyramid at the expense of the majority at the bottom
If Kanosis was not being sold through a pyramid scheme it would not be debated here
You opinion of it being "Unsustainable" has been even put at suspect by your own experts given the difference in our algorythm from the the approachs you guys have encountered. This is not so "Black and White" as you take such comfort in stating. As I understand it to be fair both ways, the MW team hates the matrix approach and feel that the users themselves will eventually be the source of failure, not from the mathematics of our specific Kanosis model as it has been discussed.

Your statement about running out of people in the world is completely off-base, yes, people further down the levels get paid less, but that is the way the MLM business model always works no matter how it is implimented. Oh by the way doesn't the next level up from you in your real job get paid more and the level above that likewise etc. ??? Multi-tiered compensation is the rule in even normal business models not the exception.

This Kanosis model is self-sustaining and will not NEVER require the constant increases in membership to sustain the payouts that an illegal pyramid does.

[Webwatch]

You opinion of it being "Unsustainable" has been even put at suspect by your own experts given the difference in our algorythm from the the approachs you guys have encountered. This is not so "Black and White" as you take such comfort in stating. As I understand it to be fair both ways, the MW team hates the matrix approach and feel that the users themselves will eventually be the source of failure, not from the mathematics of our specific Kanosis model as it has been discussed.

Your statement about running out of people in the world is completely off-base, yes, people further down the levels get paid less, but that is the way the MLM business model always works no matter how it is implimented. Oh by the way doesn't the next level up from you in your real job get paid more and the level above that likewise etc. ??? Multi-tiered compensation is the rule in even normal business models not the exception.

This Kanosis model is self-sustaining and will not NEVER require the constant increases in membership to sustain the payouts that an illegal pyramid does.

Hello Jim, I have included your post above as it best demonstrates why we differ on the Pyramid Marketing stratergy and its longevity.

In this Pyramid it would only be the members on Kanosis that where breaking even and those above them making a profit that would be happy with paying the $22 a month (Level 4 and above).

As the vast majority of Kanosians will be on the lower levels paying $22 a month and seeing little return. It will be these lower levels that will determine the future of Kanosis as if they are not seeing any return on their investment they will soon become disgruntled and stop their membership which will lead to the whole pyramid crumbling as it has a knock on effect to all those in the upper levels.

This is where members above will need to earn their money by keeping lower members involved either by promises of large investors to come which will boost their position or by introducing new products and services to keep the members in the lower tiers happy.

As every business requires new customers and returning customers for its very survival if these customers are induced into joining Kanosis on the basis of earning a profit from introducing new members they will soon leave if this income doesn't materialise and the effort involved is to great, especially if everyone else in Kanosis is doing the same.

It is true that most business upper levels of management earn more than those below them-I am looking at Kanosis from a customers prospective and not an employee who is content with those above them earning more.

If a customer joins Kanosis and pays their $59 + $22 a month thereafter they need to be fully aware that active participation in recruiting new members is needed to gain any income and just sitting back and hoping others do it for you will not work.

If however Coil lives upto all the Hype and proves a fantastic product that no new member can do without, the continued participation of the lower levels of the pyramid will last longer.

Possible future scenario.
Imagine Kanosis at its launch has 30000 members and only 1500 (5%) are high enough in their downline to be breaking even or making a profit.
For arguments sake 10000 of these members dont have access to large community groups and need to use the Internet to get new members under them in their downline.
So if the best known form of advertising on the internet is Google many of them will use a google pay per click add to advertise for new members using keywords like, earn money online, make money, kanosis etc.
So imagine what happens when a possible fresh recruit goes to google and types in Kanosis, the page will fill with adds from current members trying to get members beneath them each of these current members will have to pay more and more to be on the first page as competition increases.

The best example of this at the moment is if you go to google and search for Herbalife or make money online and see how many adds appear on the right hand side. Then click on More Sponsored links at the bottom of the first page and see how many pages of adds appear.

From this hopefully I have explained why the internet is not that big a place
to recruit new members and oversaturation will occur very quickly.

Sorry for the longer than normal post, I hope it makes sense and explains my current path of thought on this.

[Arzel]

You opinion of it being "Unsustainable" has been even put at suspect by your own experts given the difference in our algorythm from the the approachs you guys have encountered. This is not so "Black and White" as you take such comfort in stating. As I understand it to be fair both ways, the MW team hates the matrix approach and feel that the users themselves will eventually be the source of failure, not from the mathematics of our specific Kanosis model as it has been discussed.

Your statement about running out of people in the world is completely off-base, yes, people further down the levels get paid less, but that is the way the MLM business model always works no matter how it is implimented. Oh by the way doesn't the next level up from you in your real job get paid more and the level above that likewise etc. ??? Multi-tiered compensation is the rule in even normal business models not the exception.

This Kanosis model is self-sustaining and will not NEVER require the constant increases in membership to sustain the payouts that an illegal pyramid does.

Jim,

Not sure which experts you are referring.

The Matrix model is not sustainable period. If you can give me some idea of the number of total members and members at levels 5 10 and 15 I can tell you exactly how the matrix will fill with a statistical degree of error.

Additionally, the Kanosis own promotional material states that anyone joining has the same opportunity, which is simply not the case, as future benefit is dependent upon time which you join the matrix.

Don't confuse the ability to sustain a certain profit margin for those at the top, with the ability to sustain a stable matrix in which each person entering has the same opportunity as those above them, that is a very misleading statement.

To nepatriots and jnray,

To be clear, we have to this point focused on the marketing aspect of Kanosis, and the fact that it is currently marketed as a money making opportunity. I have no problem with the software, but the primary joining point at this time seems to be the prospect of making money.

[nepatriots]

or by introducing new products and services to keep the members in the lower tiers happy.


I agree with you that Kanosis will have to introduce new products and services... additionally they will have to continue to develop Coil with improvements and updates if they want to succeed in the long run. That can be said of ANY company. Many companies have gone to the wayside because another company was more aware to what the consumer wanted and built a better product.

I don't think I am pointing out anything that isn't obvious here, but I can also tell you that (as in any company or job) you have to do some work if you want to make REAL money. I'm talking about the kind of many that brings in the $30+ thousands a month... which, by the way, Kanosis has never PROMISED to anyone... that I have seen anyway.

In terms of the potential of me making a lot of money, I like the fact that I can start at any point in the matrix and build my own group. Again, making BIG money won't happen by itself... however I have already received people in my downline that I don't even know. I have also conversed with some of them and who knows I may make some new acquaintances.

NO I am not making $4000 a month or anything close to that, but hey... I am getting some use out of Coil, and some of its features, and I am enjoying the community that is building.

I will say this again... you may not agree with how Kanosis is marketing their product, and I respect your opinion, but as I said in an earlier post, this doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean that it's a scam. Anyone who has started a company will tell you marketing can make or break a company... there have been plenty of companies out there that had a great product but were not able to get it in the hands of enough people to make it successful. As far as I can tell Kanosis is doing that...

[Arzel]

I agree with you that Kanosis will have to introduce new products and services... additionally they will have to continue to develop Coil with improvements and updates if they want to succeed in the long run. That can be said of ANY company. Many companies have gone to the wayside because another company was more aware to what the consumer wanted and built a better product.

I don't think I am pointing out anything that isn't obvious here, but I can also tell you that (as in any company or job) you have to do some work if you want to make REAL money. I'm talking about the kind of many that brings in the $30+ thousands a month... which, by the way, Kanosis has never PROMISED to anyone... that I have seen anyway.

In terms of the potential of me making a lot of money, I like the fact that I can start at any point in the matrix and build my own group. Again, making BIG money won't happen by itself... however I have already received people in my downline that I don't even know. I have also conversed with some of them and who knows I may make some new acquaintances.

NO I am not making $4000 a month or anything close to that, but hey... I am getting some use out of Coil, and some of its features, and I am enjoying the community that is building.

I will say this again... you may not agree with how Kanosis is marketing their product, and I respect your opinion, but as I said in an earlier post, this doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean that it's a scam. Anyone who has started a company will tell you marketing can make or break a company... there have been plenty of companies out there that had a great product but were not able to get it in the hands of enough people to make it successful. As far as I can tell Kanosis is doing that...

I am not saying it is a scam, I am saying that their promotional material, along with several members, are misleading potential users with the lure of making money, when the cold hard facts are that very few people will ever generate enough of a downline to do so.

Kanosis, may not promise $30k a month (and they would be stuipid to do so since it would be illegal), but they certainly point out that you can earn some serious money by being a member, and that their projections for growth mean that this will be possible for the average person, which it is not.

If money was not the driving factor behind Kanosis, why not just structure the matrix such that after you get a few fellow users you don't have to pay for the service anymore?

Or just make the serive less expensive or free initially to entice people to use it?

They know that people are drawn to the possibility of making huge amounts of money for doing basically nothing, and if you don't believe that, then you are being naive.

Kanosis knows what it is doing, and there is nothing ethical about it, and we are simply calling them on it. If they want my blessing then put it out right on the page where it says how much you can make "Note - the probability of acheiving such and such income is x%", or something along those lines. Of course it can't use that exact language because of the aspect of chance relating to lotteries regulations, but I think you get the idea.

[denl]

Hi
I just joined Kanosis and I mentioned it to a friend who has been with Herbalife and well up in the organisation for 21 years and she said she has never heard of Steve Whittington. She said that there was Mark Hughes, President and founder of Herbalife and now it is Mr. Michael O Johnson, formerly from Disney corporation.
I have searched as best as I can and I cannot find any reference of Steve Whittington on any Herbalife site. The only thing I found was Steve Whittington saying that he was their President???
I do not know what to think.
Has anyone got some comments about this please?
Regards
Denis

[JNRAY]

Hi denl
here is some Information about Steve Whittington in connection to Herbalife.
From http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12...69/Section7.asp

Quote:
Mr. Stephen Whittington was appointed as our chief executive officer on October
1, 2002. Mr. Whittington's background consists of more than twenty years of
senior management experience during which period Mr. Whittington has served as
chief executive officer -- Far East and Pacific for Uniroyal Inc. and also as
the founding president of Herbalife International Inc. During 1973 - 1974, he
was a member of the United States Trade Mission to Japan, representing the
automotive industry. He has also been recognized in the Hong Kong annual
publication "Who's Who in Hong Kong," which recognizes distinguished executives
in Hong Kong. Currently Mr. Whittington serves as a director on the board of
various companies in the United States and abroad. He is also the chief
executive officer of Whittington Industries, LLC and Managing Partner of
Oakbridge Capital Partners, LLC, both of which are private firms.

Hope this helps

Add: Read Jim Southworth's post on this subject, page 5 somewhere.

[denl]

Hi JNRAY,
That link does not work. The earlist document I can find on Edgar is the following and it does not mention Steve Whittington:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/791449/0000898430-95-000564.txt
Thanks
Denis

[Ferret]

hxxp://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12...69/Section7.asp
.
The link doesn't work because of the error [the three periods] in the middle
There are some missing characters
He copy and pasted it
Should have quoted it first to get the full URL
Always check your links after posting

Here is the working link
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12/16/0001075793-02-000569/Section7.asp

[JNRAY]

Try this one

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12/16/0001075793-02-000569/Section7.asp
Otherwise Google Steve Whittington Herbalife and you should find it.

[ycchen]

YCChen,
And if you find some of the other media stories from that time frame you would find that after growing the company (Herbalife) from about $1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month he had a serious diagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company rather than compromise his own reputation or the financial situation of the customers and investors. Dig deep enough and you will find that the Chair was then about a year later called before congress to testify on the practices the Chairman had instituted that Steve left rather than allow to continue. As the SEC document you are quoting shows, he has had also an amazingly successful and credible career since than as well and has actually come out of semi-retirement to guide Kanosis through our initial explosive growth. Jim, thanks for your info. Can you clarify information regarding Stephen Whittington again? I really have hard time linking him with Herbalife.

The ONLY available information on the website states that: ...also as the founding president of Herbalife International Inc. Correct me if I am wrong. I thought the only founder of Herbalife is Mark Hughes.

Please kindly ask Mr. Steve Whittington to share with us the following questions:

1. How long did Steve Whittington serve as president of Herbalife?

2. When did he join and leave Herbalife?

3. What do you mean by "$1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month", what period of time are you talking about?

4. When you said: "he had a serious diagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company", what time frame are you refering too? Who is/was the BoD chairman at that time?

After some internet search, below is the list of past and present PRESIDENT of Herbalife. I cannot find Steve Whittington's name anywhere in Herbalife annual report filed to SEC. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mark Hughes, founder, President and CEO since 1980, Die on May 21, 2000

Christopher Pair, President and CEO since June 6, 2000 to Oct 18, 2001.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2000_June_6/ai_62536480
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-18-2001/0001595982&EDATE=

Francis Tirelli President and CEO of Herbalife, Oct 29, 2001, stepped down in 2002.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2001_Oct_29/ai_79529830
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/04/30/0000950148-02-001117/Section2.asp

Michael O. Johnson CEO of Herbalife, April 3, 2003 til now
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E5DA1738F937A35757C0A9659C8B 63

Greg Probert President and COO of Herbalife August 3, 2005 til now. http://www.feeds4all.nl/Itemdetails.aspx?ItemID=5756008

[JimSouthworth]

1. How long did Steve Whittington serve as president of Herbalife? Steve served as President just over two years he told me...

2. When did he join and leave Herbalife? 1983-1985

3. What do you mean by "$1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month", what period of time are you talking about? Steve tells me the primary growth occurred in about an eighteen month period... making this one of if not the fastest corporate growth rate ever on record. Steve was personally responsible with putting in place the executive team, the marketing, training, and distribution logistics that made this growth possible.

4. When you said: "he had a serious disagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company", what time frame are you refering too? Who is/was the BoD chairman at that time? ? I'm not sure it would either be fair or appropriate for me to give any details on this disagreement in 1985 other than it was over most of the reasons that the Founder/Chairman/Major-owner had to later testify before Congress a few months later. Now that this person is dead, I am sure Steve would take a personal phone call from one of you that really wanted to know the details if you feel it to be that important. My understanding is that Steve was ordered to do something he refused to do. Steve would not compromise his personal ethics or do something overtly that would hurt the employees or dealers, so he left Herbalife.

After some internet search, below is the list of past and present PRESIDENT of Herbalife. I cannot find Steve Whittington's name anywhere in Herbalife annual report filed to SEC. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mark Hughes, founder, President and CEO since 1980, Died on May 21, 2000
<SNIP> You may not realize that prior to 1996 an awful lot of corporate information is only available on microfilm and hard copy so far... even the SEC's Edgar system didn't start totally until mid 1996 with partial postings going back a couple of years before that only. The Wall Street Journal used a system I helped design for them to do some of this in the mid to late 1980s.... but again the info is spotty at best.....

[emanuel]

I would like to ask Jim why Kanosis is not a registered and licensed company in Canada and all their 10 provinces including having the info in French as required by law in Canada.

If you all can remember when the affiliates of Skybiz were charged in Canada and later led to the government in Canada and United States shutting down Skybiz.

The reason I ask this question is that I see members from Canada signing up and would not like to see them raided and charged like what happened in Skybiz a few years ago.

So could Jim please supply us with the Registration number in the country of Canada and each one of the licenses for each province.
Thanks

[Looking]

Jimsouthworth

Why does this message appear when trying to launch the Coil software?

The applications digital signiture is invalid.

Name: Kanosis

Publisher: Axiasoft LTD

From: http//85.232.36.110:80

Surely if Coil is meant to be a safe place to interact it should at least have a valid digital signiture.
Could you explain how customers are meant to get what they have paid for if they are cautious and heed the warning.
Or should customers ignore the warning and potentialy expose there sytems and personal info to intruders?

How are we meant to know?
How can we be sure were not having all our data copied.

Whats the difference in technical and security terms between a portal and Coil's OS portal?

Can you please address those issues and fix the digital signiture ?

Regards

Heres Looking :cool:

[JimSouthworth]

Looking,
We have just started the deployment of the newer versions of the coil interface and messaging platforms... if you communicate your problem to customer service desk at info@Kanosis.com they will help you wit this issue.... we must have blown away the original certifcate in the sftware update process, that doesn't mean there isn't encryption, it just isn't a formal certificate from a regular CA at the moment.... I have already forwarded your request to Cyprus as well.....

Thanks for the information

[JimSouthworth]

Emanuel,
As you know we are still officially in pre-launch and have cautioned several people who have wanted to register from Canada that we are not yet completely done there yet.... Our lawyers have started the process and we should be in place long before Launch date.... as you may know once you have started the filing process and have met the compliance requirements they give some time to complete the registration…. That is the window we are now in.

[Ferret]

thanks for all the answers Jim

Did you get the answer to How many members does Kanosis have now?
one of the facts I waiting for an update to from Cyprus.... I'm not going to guess since youse guys use this number to drive so many of your models. When I get it and give it, it will be accurate

Also when is Kanosis going to update its website?

[emanuel]

Thank you Jim for your response about Canada.
If you are in the process of Licensing Canada ( Which normally takes 6-12 Months to aprrove ) then your marketing plan must have been approved by Industry Canada, is this correct.

Could you also supply us Canadians with the Legal name you have filed to use in Canada.

By the way no one in Canada should be able to sign up to Kanosis until your paperwork has been filed.

Please post the name of the Company you have Filed in Canada ( you said that you have started filings and procedure ) as well when will the company bonds be placed in each one of the provinces.

Thanks

[concerned]

Jim

Why don't you answer my questions? Is it because the answers make you look bad? Here is the post again. Maybe this time you can take some time to answer real business questions.


just to make a quick point, of that $63k you highlight, about 77% goes right back out to the members in the matrix as soon as they have someone under them as comissions for their sales..... we operate typically on about 23%... this is based on actual numbers

WOW!!! 77% goes straight to people selling the software. That means that your software is overvalued in price by more than 300%. I think you just lost a lot of customers by stating that here. Who wants to pay for something that is overpriced? Here's a thought. Why not use a different marketing stragety. {I don't remember the pricing, so I will use fake pricing} Why not say that the industry has valued this software at $100, but as an introductory price, you are providing it at $23 and pass the savings onto the customers. That seems like a much more logical marketing stragety, don't you think?

[nepatriots]

Concerned... I don't know one company who is going to discuss with a message board their pricing strategy... what makes you think that Kanosis should? Call up Microsoft and see what they say to you.

I do think your comment about software pricing would be an interesting topic of conversation... software, in general, is way overpriced. It is my opinion that Kanosis is a good value. Consider that Microsoft is offering only a portion of what Kanosis is and they will be charging $29.95 (Office Live).

[Arzel]

Concerned... I don't know one company who is going to discuss with a message board their pricing strategy... what makes you think that Kanosis should? Call up Microsoft and see what they say to you.

I do think your comment about software pricing would be an interesting topic of conversation... software, in general, is way overpriced. It is my opinion that Kanosis is a good value. Consider that Microsoft is offering only a portion of what Kanosis is and they will be charging $29.95 (Office Live).


Very interesting. Office Live appears to be the same thing as COIL and it is FREE during BETA.

What would be the primary difference between Office Live and COIL? I can find out a ton of stuff about OL, but not so much about COIL.

Also, this kind of throws the whole "2 years ahead of Microsoft" right out the window.

Jim,

Still waiting for those numbers.

[nepatriots]

Very interesting. Office Live appears to be the same thing as COIL and it is FREE during BETA.


I don't think that I am going out on a limb to say this but I am pretty sure that Microsoft can afford to offer their products for free. Just because a small company like Kanosis is charging during their beta stage doesn't mean they are crooks.

[Looking]

Jimsouthworth

I appreciate your replying to my last post though you perhaps felt it may take up expensive time typing out a concise laymans technical explanation regards the difference bewteen a Portal and a Coil OS Portal package. I would be greatfull for the effort.

Thanks
Heres Looking

[nepatriots]

Also, this kind of throws the whole "2 years ahead of Microsoft" right out the window.

How do you figure? You haven't seen the software and you are automatically assuming that it's EXACTLY the same. I think we should wait to make a general assumption until Kanosis comes out with their documention explaining their software in a lot more detail. It's my understanding that it is coming very soon...

I can also almost guarantee that the security built into the Kanosis offering is a lot higher. Every other week you will find a news clip about another Microsoft vulnerability...

[Arzel]

I don't think that I am going out on a limb to say this but I am pretty sure that Microsoft can afford to offer their products for free. Just because a small company like Kanosis is charging during their beta stage doesn't mean they are crooks.

I never said they were crooks.

Regardless, the size of Kanosis should be irrellevant.

Check out WebEX an online meeting center. You can use their software for free during a trial period.

And WebEX is not exactly a household name.

In any case, I can't ever recall a company charging people to use thier beta product.

[nepatriots]

I never said they were crooks.

Regardless, the size of Kanosis should be irrellevant.

Check out WebEX an online meeting center. You can use their software for free during a trial period.

And WebEX is not exactly a household name.

In any case, I can't ever recall a company charging people to use thier beta product.

Sorry Arzel... I didn't intend to make it sound like you did say they were crooks.

I understand your point about charging for beta... I am not able to refute that point but I am sure that Kanosis is not the first to charge for a beta... I just can't think of any right now.

[Looking]

Nepatriots
Myvideotalk.com charged for its Beta version of its Video Community Conferencing Suit and took 4-5 month after its official launch to provide the complete package as originaly promised. I think its now an excellant product, cetainly a lot cheaper than anything Webex has to offer.
You should check MVT out. I would be interested in your and others opinions

[emanuel]

I have never seen a company charge for Beta Test as well.
If this product is so great, why not give it free during the
pre-launch and beta test. You would get several thousand
to try it and you would be a huge data base of potential customers
and potential affiliates.

By the way Jim, please answer my question in regards to legal
licensing in Canada.
Thanks

[Arzel]

Nepatriots
Myvideotalk.com charged for its Beta version of its Video Community Conferencing Suit and took 4-5 month after its official launch to provide the complete package as originaly promised. I think its now an excellant product, cetainly a lot cheaper than anything Webex has to offer.
You should check MVT out. I would be interested in your and others opinions

Myvideotalk appears to be another MLM marketing scheme. Regardless of the quality of the product, the primary aspect for joining appears to be the goal of getting additional members to join and providing additional income to yourself through your downline, not exactly what I would consider a mainstream company.

[Looking]

Arzel
Exactly.
But is is a good example and model of what Kanosis is seeking to emulate and there by reduce dedt risk in developing a good product hopefully. I concede that many MVT downlines pockets would not necessarly agree its been an efficient and cost effective way of leveraging time to generate cash for themselves .

Compaired to what they started of with MVT now has a good product and an asset which they can traditionly if and whether it suits.

Regards

Looking

[Arzel]

Arzel
Exactly.
But is is a good example and model of what Kanosis is seeking to emulate and there by reduce dedt risk in developing a good product hopefully. I concede that many MVT downlines pockets would not necessarly agree its been an efficient and cost effective way of leveraging time to generate cash for themselves .

Compaired to what they started of with MVT now has a good product and an asset which they can traditionly if and whether it suits.

Regards

Looking

As I have said before, I don't have a problem with their marketing, so long as it is legal. I do have a problem with them marketing it as a money making opportunity, as it still is to a certain degree on their webpage.

One of my biggest arguements here is the statement that "many" of the users of COIL will make enough through their matrix to pay for their service, however this is simply not true as the vast majority (approximately 90%) will never make enough to cover the cost of the service.

To this point many people have been very deceptive in their marketing of Kanosis. Kanosis has addressed some of these issues, but their own promotional material is still deceptive in the amount of money that the average person will make.

[JimSouthworth]

Hey guys, how about some of you please have a little more patience…. I do have a real job doing real things besides answering question after question after question. I also have family responsibilities besides. I will do my best to participate but my priorities are a little different this week with some major milestones needing to be met to keep our projects on schedule.

Ferret,
I still do not have an accurate count, I am not delaying it, it’s just that the key person who has the exact numbers was out sick with the flu today. I should have a number from another source by tomorrow morning my time. Cyprus is 7 hours ahead of my time zone and that complicates communications when I want some specific details that I don’t want access to myself. Remember we have security procedures in place that are actually designed to protect the investment in effort, time, and money that our members have put forward.

Oh and your second question, the website is schedule for a major overhaul release in the next few business days…. It will be very obvious to everyone when it is completed.

Emanuel,
As I said in my previous post, I have taken the information from you and some others and have turned it over to our legal staff. They have assured me that their Canadian law partners have made the necessary initial steps. As it was explained to me by them, all Canadian filings have to be done by a Canadian licensed law firm, so they are being done by our law firm’s Canadian office. And that’s all I know until I hear back from them later this week.

Concerned,
To rebut your implications, I have a real job not just a hobby interrogating for fun and entertainment. Consider for a moment that what I have been saying consistently since I joined this forum just might be true. Kanosis is selling a service product not just software. In fact the software is only an enabling vehicle to gain access to the other bundled services of Kanosis. So although the software is BETA this week, the service it allows the delivery of is NOT BETA. But, If we were to arbitrarily assign a value to a single “seat” of software at $100, and we were going to amortize it over a two year period as the means by which we sell our services, that non-discounted price recovery would be just over $4 per month. Funny how that works out with our compensation plan. We payout most of the revenue stream to those who are actually selling our services. So to put that in terms that address your implications. No, the software is not undervalued or overpriced and besides this is only an academic example of the possible pricing strategy we are using.

NePatriots was dead on when he said that I am more than a little reticent to discuss our exact pricing algorithms, but I will say this much that the actual price we pay per seat is substantially discounted from market value by the huge volume licensing agreement we purchased from the authors company.

This said, you should be able to follow the logic as to how we can further expand our actual margins as the customer base increases. This leads itself to the reason we selected the accelerated marketing model based on MLM. We are using it to make this a profitable firm in the shortest possible time. Not to be too redundant, but most if not at least many customers are convinced they get good value from the services that the software is used to deliver.

[denl]

Hi,
I don't know what to think, but I feel I should let you know what my Herbalife friend had to say about Steve Whittington. So her reply is below:

Hi Denis,
Very Interesting to say the least.

I joined up in May of 1985 and Mark was the founder and President then and continued to be until his untimely death when Christopher Pair stepped in to help out. Chris was a friend of Marks and it was a provision of his will. He was also one of the Executors and it was never meant to be permanent...more like a care taker until all the details were sorted. Frank Tirelli was in the chair for a short time but this was a temporary position.

Michael O Johnson has been with us since Frank stepped down. Greg was never in any of those positions he was our Chief Operating Officer and still is.

I am a Millionaire Team member and have been privvy to a lot of information and some of it confidential. None of the stuff below makes any sense to me as the only two permanent CEO's have been Mark and now Michael.

The testifying before Congress had a lot of air time on American TV and there has been loads written about it....all good.

The US Congress were doing a witch hunt on companies selling nutritional supplementation and we got singled out. Suffice to say that they looked like a bunch of idiots at the hearing (which is on tape !) when Mark stood up and asked them how come if they were all so expert on health, nutrition and weightloss...they were all fat!

The only reason I bought this up in my email to you was so that you didnt get into strife with a company which even though its ground floor, has a shaky chance of making it, like a dozens of MLM that come into the country.

In all my years with them, I have never known Mark to do anything unethical and if I thought that he was and that the company was going to create a problem with my own ethics and personal integrity, I would never have stayed.

When you mentioned that this Steve was a former president the bells went off as I knew of no such thing. I rang a friend of mine here is Distributor Relations who has been around as long as me and he did a search and cant even come up with any such person. Mark was President till his death and then we have Michael who is doing a fantastic job.

Hope this helps and look forward to catching up in the near future. One weekend would be good.


Regards
Karyn

Hi Karyn,

Yes it would be great to catch up for a coffee sometime in the next few weeks. This week and next are out for me. I have been trying to find out about this Steve Whittington, but it is difficult to find any concrete facts. I did manage to get his email address and I sent him an email, but I have not had a reply from him as yet. Since I posted my concerns on a forum others have asked questions also. Below is a response to someone's questions. Would you have any way of verifying this Karyn?
Anyhow do you have a preferred time in 3 weeks time to have a coffee?
Warm regards,
Denis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
1. How long did Steve Whittington serve as president of Herbalife?

Steve served as President just over two years he told me...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
2. When did he join and leave Herbalife?

1983-1985


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
3. What do you mean by "$1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month", what period of time are you talking about?

Steve tells me the primary growth occurred in about an eighteen month period... making this one of if not the fastest corporate growth rate ever on record. Steve was personally responsible with putting in place the executive team, the marketing, training, and distribution logistics that made this growth possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
4. When you said: "he had a serious disagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company", what time frame are you refering too? Who is/was the BoD chairman at that time? ?

I'm not sure it would either be fair or appropriate for me to give any details on this disagreement in 1985 other than it was over most of the reasons that the Founder/Chairman/Major-owner had to later testify before Congress a few months later. Now that this person is dead, I am sure Steve would take a personal phone call from one of you that really wanted to know the details if you feel it to be that important. My understanding is that Steve was ordered to do something he refused to do. Steve would not compromise his personal ethics or do something overtly that would hurt the employees or dealers, so he left Herbalife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
After some internet search, below is the list of past and present PRESIDENT of Herbalife. I cannot find Steve Whittington's name anywhere in Herbalife annual report filed to SEC. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mark Hughes, founder, President and CEO since 1980, Die on May 21, 2000

Christopher Pair, President and CEO since June 6, 2000 to Oct 18, 2001.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...e_6/ai_62536480
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/s...01595982&EDATE=

Francis Tirelli President and CEO of Herbalife, Oct 29, 2001, stepped down in 2002.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._29/ai_79529830
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/04...17/Section2.asp

Michael O. Johnson CEO of Herbalife, April 3, 2003 til now
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7C0A9659C8B 63

Greg Probert President and COO of Herbalife August 3, 2005 til now. http://www.feeds4all.nl/Itemdetails.aspx?ItemID=5756008

You may not realize that prior to 1996 an awful lot of corporate information is only available on microfilm and hard copy so far... even the SEC's Edgar system didn't start totally until mid 1996 with partial postings going back a couple of years before that only. The Wall Street Journal used a system I helped design for them to do some of this in the mid to late 1980s.... but again the info is spotty at best.....

[Arzel]

How do you figure? You haven't seen the software and you are automatically assuming that it's EXACTLY the same. I think we should wait to make a general assumption until Kanosis comes out with their documention explaining their software in a lot more detail. It's my understanding that it is coming very soon...

I can also almost guarantee that the security built into the Kanosis offering is a lot higher. Every other week you will find a news clip about another Microsoft vulnerability...

I missed this post earlier.

There may be a few diferences in services, but from reading both the info about COIL and MS Office Live, they both seem very similar. Kanosis claims COIL is two years ahead of MS, but I don't see any evidence of this. Perhaps Kanosis claims they are two years ahead of MS with regards to security, but this is a spurious statement at best.

To say that it would take MS two years to replicate, or any copycat for that matter, is naive. They may have started two years before anyone else, but one thing about technology is that it never takes the person behind you very long to replicate what you have done. You may have heard the term backward engineering, well this applies.

Most certainly the services being offered by COIL would be easily repeatable, and from my little search it appears most, if not all, already are being offered to various degrees. Not all of them appear to be offered together, but each one certainly does appear to be.

The security method being used may be higher, but there is no such thing as a perfectly safe system, even Kanosis won't be failsafe. If you understand the law of diminishing returns, you would understand how it is immpossible to create a perfect system, and so long as you will be sending information across the internet, you will always have a small risk of that information being intercepted.

The real question is to what level Kanosis will limit this ability in real world models. They hopefully have done some simulation analsysis to determine what kind of probilites exist for failure of the system. They say "we are more safe" but what does that mean? Does it mean they reduce your probility of risk from 2/1,000,000 to 1/1,000,000? or from 1,000/1,000,000 to 1/1,000,000? both are safer, but the first one is so marginal as to probably not be worth an increased cost to the average person.

Kanosis has claimed to be years ahead of MS since this whole thing started, but I think such claims should be taken with a grain of salt. If two years from now no one has duplicated their security or product then yes they were two years ahead (assuming the product is actually worth duplicating), but for now they may only just be ahead of the competition (which is not a bad place to be). In my eyes, the "two years ahead of MS" is simply more wordspeak to promote their product, and has little meaning outside of that.

[ycchen]

Hi,
I don't know what to think, but I feel I should let you know what my Herbalife friend had to say about Steve Whittington. So her reply is below:

Hi Denis,
Very Interesting to say the least.

I joined up in May of 1985 and Mark was the founder and President then and continued to be until his untimely death when Christopher Pair stepped in to help out. Chris was a friend of Marks and it was a provision of his will. He was also one of the Executors and it was never meant to be permanent...more like a care taker until all the details were sorted. Frank Tirelli was in the chair for a short time but this was a temporary position.

Michael O Johnson has been with us since Frank stepped down. Greg was never in any of those positions he was our Chief Operating Officer and still is.

I am a Millionaire Team member and have been privvy to a lot of information and some of it confidential. None of the stuff below makes any sense to me as the only two permanent CEO's have been Mark and now Michael.

The testifying before Congress had a lot of air time on American TV and there has been loads written about it....all good.

The US Congress were doing a witch hunt on companies selling nutritional supplementation and we got singled out. Suffice to say that they looked like a bunch of idiots at the hearing (which is on tape !) when Mark stood up and asked them how come if they were all so expert on health, nutrition and weightloss...they were all fat!

The only reason I bought this up in my email to you was so that you didnt get into strife with a company which even though its ground floor, has a shaky chance of making it, like a dozens of MLM that come into the country.

In all my years with them, I have never known Mark to do anything unethical and if I thought that he was and that the company was going to create a problem with my own ethics and personal integrity, I would never have stayed.

When you mentioned that this Steve was a former president the bells went off as I knew of no such thing. I rang a friend of mine here is Distributor Relations who has been around as long as me and he did a search and cant even come up with any such person. Mark was President till his death and then we have Michael who is doing a fantastic job.

Hope this helps and look forward to catching up in the near future. One weekend would be good.


Regards
Karyn

Hi Karyn,

Yes it would be great to catch up for a coffee sometime in the next few weeks. This week and next are out for me. I have been trying to find out about this Steve Whittington, but it is difficult to find any concrete facts. I did manage to get his email address and I sent him an email, but I have not had a reply from him as yet. Since I posted my concerns on a forum others have asked questions also. Below is a response to someone's questions. Would you have any way of verifying this Karyn?
Anyhow do you have a preferred time in 3 weeks time to have a coffee?
Warm regards,
Denis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
1. How long did Steve Whittington serve as president of Herbalife?

Steve served as President just over two years he told me...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
2. When did he join and leave Herbalife?

1983-1985


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
3. What do you mean by "$1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month", what period of time are you talking about?

Steve tells me the primary growth occurred in about an eighteen month period... making this one of if not the fastest corporate growth rate ever on record. Steve was personally responsible with putting in place the executive team, the marketing, training, and distribution logistics that made this growth possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
4. When you said: "he had a serious disagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company", what time frame are you refering too? Who is/was the BoD chairman at that time? ?

I'm not sure it would either be fair or appropriate for me to give any details on this disagreement in 1985 other than it was over most of the reasons that the Founder/Chairman/Major-owner had to later testify before Congress a few months later. Now that this person is dead, I am sure Steve would take a personal phone call from one of you that really wanted to know the details if you feel it to be that important. My understanding is that Steve was ordered to do something he refused to do. Steve would not compromise his personal ethics or do something overtly that would hurt the employees or dealers, so he left Herbalife.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ycchen
After some internet search, below is the list of past and present PRESIDENT of Herbalife. I cannot find Steve Whittington's name anywhere in Herbalife annual report filed to SEC. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Mark Hughes, founder, President and CEO since 1980, Die on May 21, 2000

Christopher Pair, President and CEO since June 6, 2000 to Oct 18, 2001.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...e_6/ai_62536480
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/s...01595982&EDATE=

Francis Tirelli President and CEO of Herbalife, Oct 29, 2001, stepped down in 2002.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._29/ai_79529830
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/04...17/Section2.asp

Michael O. Johnson CEO of Herbalife, April 3, 2003 til now
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7C0A9659C8B 63

Greg Probert President and COO of Herbalife August 3, 2005 til now. http://www.feeds4all.nl/Itemdetails.aspx?ItemID=5756008

You may not realize that prior to 1996 an awful lot of corporate information is only available on microfilm and hard copy so far... even the SEC's Edgar system didn't start totally until mid 1996 with partial postings going back a couple of years before that only. The Wall Street Journal used a system I helped design for them to do some of this in the mid to late 1980s.... but again the info is spotty at best.....

Hi denl, thank you very much for your feedback, and please continue to keep us posted. This is a consumer forum, and we strongly encourage consumers to help each other with the DD.

I guess it would be best if Steve could drop by and give us a clarification on his involvement with Herbalife. Why is this important? Because herbalife experience and herbalife lawyers have been mentioned many times as a justification of legality and business soundness of kanosis. For example: Steve tells me the primary growth occurred in about an eighteen month period... making this one of if not the fastest corporate growth rate ever on record. Steve was personally responsible with putting in place the executive team, the marketing, training, and distribution logistics that made this growth possible.Jim seems to indicate that Steve might be willing to take a phone call from MatrixWatch members. If that is the case, then if you (denl or kanosis prospects) are interested in learning the real story, you might like to PM Jim for Steve's contact.
I'm not sure it would either be fair or appropriate for me to give any details on this disagreement in 1985 other than it was over most of the reasons that the Founder/Chairman/Major-owner had to later testify before Congress a few months later. Now that this person is dead, I am sure Steve would take a personal phone call from one of you that really wanted to know the details if you feel it to be that important. My understanding is that Steve was ordered to do something he refused to do. Steve would not compromise his personal ethics or do something overtly that would hurt the employees or dealers, so he left Herbalife.

[Arzel]

Concerned,
To rebut your implications, I have a real job not just a hobby interrogating for fun and entertainment. Consider for a moment that what I have been saying consistently since I joined this forum just might be true. Kanosis is selling a service product not just software. In fact the software is only an enabling vehicle to gain access to the other bundled services of Kanosis. So although the software is BETA this week, the service it allows the delivery of is NOT BETA. But, If we were to arbitrarily assign a value to a single “seat” of software at $100, and we were going to amortize it over a two year period as the means by which we sell our services, that non-discounted price recovery would be just over $4 per month. Funny how that works out with our compensation plan. We payout most of the revenue stream to those who are actually selling our services. So to put that in terms that address your implications. No, the software is not undervalued or overpriced and besides this is only an academic example of the possible pricing strategy we are using.

NePatriots was dead on when he said that I am more than a little reticent to discuss our exact pricing algorithms, but I will say this much that the actual price we pay per seat is substantially discounted from market value by the huge volume licensing agreement we purchased from the authors company.

This said, you should be able to follow the logic as to how we can further expand our actual margins as the customer base increases. This leads itself to the reason we selected the accelerated marketing model based on MLM. We are using it to make this a profitable firm in the shortest possible time. Not to be too redundant, but most if not at least many customers are convinced they get good value from the services that the software is used to deliver.

Jim,

I am a little confused. I thought that you have said that COIL was produced by Kanosis programmers? Or are you referring to the VPN-like environment used to connect people to Kanosis?

What is to stop someone else from simply buying the product from the authors and offering the same service?

[ycchen]

Arzel, Jim has already answered your question, see below.

Interestingly enough, I still can't find the homepage of Axiasoft limited that invented the Coil, which is 2 years ahead of Microsoft! FYI, Kanosis domain is registed under Axiasoft ltd based in Cyprus! I am still wakting for Jim to to give usgive us more information (the website, for example) about Axiasoft ltd, which seems to play a critical role in giving kanosis the legitimacy of a real software company!

Second question: I wonder how many employees (and how many of them are software engineers) did Kanosis hired? Are they all working at Cyprus or California, or ??
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=34165&postcount=69
Just maybe you might have such a predisposition to finding somthing that isn't there this time..... with the knowledge of the Internet that the key people involved have, do you really think we would keep this completely in the clear and completely open if it wasn't completely on the up and up ??? Axiasoft limited is the original software developer that has licensed the Coil applications to Kanosis to deploy as an ASP model along with products from several other web application companies... what is so unusual about this??? ]Kanosis buys the exclusive rights and license to the software exactly as stated.... Kanosis is a stand alone corporation selling a service using a MLM business model....

No insult intended, just my opinion, I believe you suffer from the same issues some of my closest friends in senior law enforcement have to watch for and catch themselves doing every so often..... they are so sure that they see something that looks like something that has been so mis-used by others in the past that there is no possible way that honest reasonable people could possibly be completely honest and ethical, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE and this service is..... If I didn't care about re-calibrating you on this, I would give up at this point and just write you guys off as over zealous paranoids, except that you aren't paranoid, because there are other people out there doing bad things.... BUT this is not one of them......

What would it take to get you to stop stereo typing this and be realistic that there may actually be a justifiable reason to have a rapidly deploying application so its business model can support the required expensive infrastructure. Why have almost 99 out of 100 ASP business models failed in the last 5 years ??? In the world of the Internet, you can't make money off of transport when it keeps dropping like a rock. You can't make money off basic services because they commoditize faster than you can break even AND the only real money is in "Value-added Services". Also, everybody knows you can't generate revenue fast enough to break even with the standard "take-up" rate and sell cycle for legacy applications deployment. It takes an explosive business model to survive the ramp-up with sufficient revenue... eBay, eTrade, Amazon.com, Google, etc., etc..... unless your business has a real bricks and mortar distribution model to fall back on, 99 out of 100 international business models have failed consistently.... MLM avoids that and a controlled MLM like Kanosis has that is done by reference further enhances that risk-avoidence.... and before you start quoting Shakespear on me "Me thinks thou protests too much".... ask your self what we have to gain even having this debate ??? the controlled MLM model works and is fair the way we have developed it. Mary Kay and Avon use it very effectively and are even somewhat less selective than we are being.

OBTW, animation, movies, flash, and even voice recordings are very very effective training aids.... and I doubt you can find anything that has been said in a recording that hasn't been documented in writing somewhere on the public areas of the web site. If you do, we will fix that also.

Pardon my typing and grammar, its late......

[Arzel]

Thanks ycchen, I must have missed that bit, since I was focusing on the matrix aspect.

[ycchen]

Jim,

I am a little confused. I thought that you have said that COIL was produced by Kanosis programmers? Or are you referring to the VPN-like environment used to connect people to Kanosis?

What is to stop someone else from simply buying the product from the authors and offering the same service? Well, Jim only answer your first question, but not the second one -- why can't we buy (or even license the coil) from Axiasoft ltd directly?

A possible answer: Axiasoft ltd no longer exist since we cannot find any information about this company!

Of course, you can email or call "ioannis antoniou" from the only contact you can find on the net and see if s/he replies you regarding kanosis, coil or licensing deal. I am still waitig for his/her reply.

http://www.ccs.org.cy/companies.php?order=true

[JimSouthworth]

Well, Jim only answer your first question, but not the second one -- why can't we buy (or even license the coil) from Axiasoft ltd directly?

A possible answer: Axiasoft ltd no longer exist since we cannot find any information about this company!
ycchen,
We did something right, Kanosis bought exclusive new distribution rights to the Coil software from Axiasoft about 2 months ago. Axiasoft certainly still exists as a separate company of approximately 14 people (mostly development staff) at the moment and will co-locate to our new Kanosis Headquarters in about two weeks from the old office space we now share with a large real-estate company (large by Cyprus standards) to our own 5 story building across town. The Newport Beach office in California is being moved into this week by our west coast staff and all the contact and address information should be up on the new website later this week when we point DNS to the new servers.

And to answer another earlier comment, Steve has been in touch by at least email directly with denl and they will be corresponding at least over the next few days. Steve is out of his office and arranging for people denl will know to be credible and able to discuss his tenure at Herbalife directly.

[ycchen]

ycchen,
We did something right, Kanosis bought exclusive new distribution rights to the Coil software from Axiasoft about 2 months ago. Axiasoft certainly still exists as a separate company of approximately 14 people (mostly development staff) at the moment and will co-locate to our new Kanosis Headquarters in about two weeks from the old office space we now share with a large real-estate company (large by Cyprus standards) to our own 5 story building across town. The Newport Beach office in California is being moved into this week by our west coast staff and all the contact and address information should be up on the new website later this week when we point DNS to the new servers.

And to answer another earlier comment, Steve has been in touch by at least email directly with denl and they will be corresponding at least over the next few days. Steve is out of his office and arranging for people denl will know to be credible and able to discuss his tenure at Herbalife directly. Jim, thanks for your prompt reply and provide opportunity for our member denl to have at least email contact with Steve. We will be looking forward for the feedback from denl.

In the meantime, I will verify Steve's profile in the "Who's Who in Hong Kong".

One follow-up question on Axiasoft if I may. Could you kindly give us some history of Axiasoft ltd? Isn't it a bit unusual that an innovative software company that does not have a homepage of its own? Why?

When you said Axiasoft will also move to Kanosis headquarter together, are you saying that Axiasoft and Kanosis will share the same office space? Can you kindly clarify the future relation between Axiasoft and Kanosis? Are they the same bunch of people with two different hats?

Also, may I know who is "ioannis antoniou"? Is he the registered owner or manager of Axiasoft ltd?

But why is his email address "johnnys@gp-lazarou.com" conntected to a real estate company based in Cyprus (www.gp-lazarou.com)?! If he is the real estate agent that rent the office space to Axiasoft ltd and Kaonsis? If so, why is he the contact person for Axiasoft ltd? Any clarification is greatly appreciated.

Lastly, Who is Van Zutphen, Stephen (Axiasoft@cytanet.com.cy)? He is the person who register the crucial domain according to godaddy.com. Is he the employee of both Axiasoft and Kanosis?

www.kanosis.com
www.coil-os.com
www.coil-os.net (the last 2 websites is not working)

[JimSouthworth]

Steve Van Zutphen and Ioannis Antoniou are both board members and founders of Kanosis, both still are employees and senior most management of their respective companies.

Steve is the senior management of Axiasoft and also the primary software architect of the features and functions of Coil..... Not by accident, he is also a successful trial attorney and legal software designer originally from Canada and North Carolina. He is married to a native Cypriot and resides permanently in Cyprus with his family.

Ioannis Antoniou's first name is pronounced as "Yonny" which when said by others sounds like "Johnny" which lends itself to a more unique email address than "Ioannis" in a country where lots of people share his first name.

Axiasoft will occupy some space of our new building along with at least two other companies that are directly affilated with or in the case of the web development firm which is now owned by Kanosis. Our California office will also house additional companies as needed and we add the next round of software systems like Coil into the integrated Kanosis service product offering. I think that answers all you asked this time....

[ycchen]

Steve Van Zutphen and Ioannis Antoniou are both board members and founders of Kanosis, both still are employees and senior most management of their respective companies.

Steve is the senior management of Axiasoft and also the primary software architect of the features and functions of Coil..... Not by accident, he is also a successful trial attorney and legal software designer originally from Canada and North Carolina. He is married to a native Cypriot and resides permanently in Cyprus with his family.

Ioannis Antoniou's first name is pronounced as "Yonny" which when said by others sounds like "Johnny" which lends itself to a more unique email address than "Ioannis" in a country where lots of people share his first name.

Axiasoft will occupy some space of our new building along with at least two other companies that are directly affilated with or in the case of the web development firm which is now owned by Kanosis. Our California office will also house additional companies as needed and we add the next round of software systems like Coil into the integrated Kanosis service product offering. I think that answers all you asked this time.... Yes, you did answer "almost" all my questions this time, thanks a lot. :)

Correct me if I am wrong, I guess "www.coil-os.com" was the original homepage of "Axiasoft limited", right?

If so, I think some of our members (and Kanosian prospects) might be curious about the reason Axiasoft close down their own website (coil-os.com and coil.os.net)? Is it because they have licensed their main product -- coil -- to Kanosis, so they do not need to keep their own identity (i.e. website) anymore? So, can we assume that all the 14 software developers of Axiasoft are now part of the Kanosis team as well? Otherwise, can you tell us which team is responsible for the future design, modification ...etc of coil?

Lastly, don't forget Arzel's statistical (or you like to call it algorithm)fairness question inherited in your pyramid-matrix style (or MLM in your own language) business model. Thanks.

[JNRAY]

Hi Jim

I have a short question about the safety of the Coil software since it is Java based and requiers you to give it full access to the harddisc. I am no expert but doesnt that open a intrusion hole for hackers? I was told that there have been networks like Compuserve which have failed and are not existing anymore today. What is the difference between the compuserve network(if something like that ever existed) and Coil? Also Why does the Internet Browser block the activation of Coil?? What makes Coil to be safe from attacks and intruders???

[Webwatch]

Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire,
After many long hours spent researching and discussing coil with colleagues of mine most of us have come to the conclusion that any Java based OS platform is of serious risk of attack's from hackers, viruses, trojans etc.

This is compounded by the fact that a 3rd party server (middle man) is used to access the internet via coil which uses a Kanosis server as a portal.

The best analogy I can think of is this.
Imagine you are going to withdraw funds from your local cashpoint and are aware of the usual risks i.e. card readers mini cameras etc which can be attached to the cashpoint to gain your information.

Upon aproaching the cashpoint a complete stranger comes a long and says "Have no fear I will stand between you and the cashpoint while you whisper your pin number in my ear I will type it in for you".

Would anyone do this even if this stranger says for every friend you get to do the same I will pay you a referal fee of $1.10. I doubt it.

This may be oversimplyfying things a bit but no computer network is 100%secure and I would urge every user of coil never to use its browser facilities to access online banking systems. Most reputable online stores will also have a 128bit encryption process in place for securing payment details also.
-------------------------------

I keep reading that Kanosis is advertising itself as an MLM (not a pyramid scheme) this I believe to be false as with most MLM schemes there is an end user with an end product, even hebalife has bottles of pills which can be bought without the need for the end user to refer others to buy them.

With Kanosis there is no end product at the moment, there is only coil which is a monthly subscription service that each and every end user is expected to sell to others in the hope of making a profit from a gradually increasing downline.

Axiasoft:
Now this gets more interesting. A software company without a website is this the only one!!.
If this company has all the experts and software designers in house why would it need to advertise for free lancers in January of This Year to assist with the project.
http://www.getafreelancer.com/projects/38593.html
(taken from one of my earlier posts)

Six years in development and still freelancers are needed.

[nepatriots]

Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire,
After many long hours spent researching and discussing coil with colleagues of mine most of us have come to the conclusion that any Java based OS platform is of serious risk of attack's from hackers, viruses, trojans etc.

I have to say some of you guys are hypocrites! Your vague comments like “colleagues of mine most of us have come to the conclusion that…” is the same kind of generalization that you rip Kanosis for. It’s obvious to me now that some here are just performing a witch hunt. They have no objectivity or open mind… you just like to hear yourself ‘talk’.

I think we all understand that you have a problem with how Kanosis is marketed… but now we have progressed to ridiculing every aspect of this software. We could sit here and perform this type of persecution of almost any software package out there. I can now understand a little about what Microsoft goes through when their products and/or services are ripped upon for reasons that are just self serving.

When it comes to the security questions I am no expert but if you are looking for Kanosis, or any other company, to guarantee that their product is 110% secure or un-hackable… I doubt you are going to get that. I keep saying this, but again, nowhere on their site do they claim that it is…


This may be oversimplyfying things a bit

This may be the understatment of the year...



A software company without a website is this the only one!!.


What is this facination with a software company with no web site? Is it possible that due to the exclusive agreement with Kanosis there is no reason for him to have a web site to market his product???? :head:

[concerned]

When it comes to the security questions I am no expert but if you are looking for Kanosis, or any other company, to guarantee that their product is 110% secure or un-hackable… I doubt you are going to get that. I keep saying this, but again, nowhere on their site do they claim that it is…

I agree with this. So, if this software cannot guarantee it, why use it on third party servers, with other people having access to you information. Why not just use a VPN into your own network. At least you can control the access, and if it gets hacked, at least the internal IT staff can take responsibility. Outside people will just pass the buck.

[nepatriots]

I agree with this. So, if this software cannot guarantee it, why use it on third party servers, with other people having access to you information. Why not just use a VPN into your own network. At least you can control the access, and if it gets hacked, at least the internal IT staff can take responsibility. Outside people will just pass the buck.

Because 90% of the people out there don't know how to create a VPN connection. I don't know about you but my parents, or even most of my friends, don't know how to do this... and for most it's just easier to use a secure area already created for them.

I think that the question of why someone would use any of the online data options out there, instead of doing it themselves, is answered quite simply... because it's convenient. IMHO

[concerned]

Because 90% of the people out there don't know how to create a VPN connection. I don't know about you but my parents, or even most of my friends, don't know how to do this... and for most it's just easier to use a secure area already created for them.

I think that the question of why someone would use any of the online data options out there, instead of doing it themselves, is answered quite simply... because it's convenient. IMHO

Are you kidding me? Do you even know what they are trying to sell? They keep saying that all these big companies are using Coil, but they never name the companies. These are companies that have IT staffs. You are telling me that these companies with IT staff don't know how to do a vpn connection?

Now, you are right about the other people. That is probably what they are looking for. They are looking for nieve people to trust them with their information. It sounds like even if Kanosis was legit in the marketing, they are just using Coil to steel identities and information from the unsuspecting.

[nepatriots]

Are you kidding me? Do you even know what they are trying to sell? They keep saying that all these big companies are using Coil, but they never name the companies. These are companies that have IT staffs. You are telling me that these companies with IT staff don't know how to do a vpn connection?
I was referring to the individuals out there... if I misunderstood your point I apologize.


Now, you are right about the other people. That is probably what they are looking for. They are looking for nieve people to trust them with their information. It sounds like even if Kanosis was legit in the marketing, they are just using Coil to steel identities and information from the unsuspecting.
So I guess Microsoft is trying to get naive people to buy into their Office Live product, or for that matter any company that is offering this type of product, to try and steal identities and information from the unsuspecting. That is pathetic thinking… :nono:

[Arzel]

I was referring to the individuals out there... if I misunderstood your point I apologize.


So I guess Microsoft is trying to get naive people to buy into their Office Live product, or for that matter any company that is offering this type of product, to try and steal identities and information from the unsuspecting. That is pathetic thinking… :nono:

Microsoft isn't using the lure of big money to get people to use their product, there is a big difference.

[Arzel]

Steve Van Zutphen and Ioannis Antoniou are both board members and founders of Kanosis, both still are employees and senior most management of their respective companies.

Steve is the senior management of Axiasoft and also the primary software architect of the features and functions of Coil..... Not by accident, he is also a successful trial attorney and legal software designer originally from Canada and North Carolina. He is married to a native Cypriot and resides permanently in Cyprus with his family.

Ioannis Antoniou's first name is pronounced as "Yonny" which when said by others sounds like "Johnny" which lends itself to a more unique email address than "Ioannis" in a country where lots of people share his first name.

Axiasoft will occupy some space of our new building along with at least two other companies that are directly affilated with or in the case of the web development firm which is now owned by Kanosis. Our California office will also house additional companies as needed and we add the next round of software systems like Coil into the integrated Kanosis service product offering. I think that answers all you asked this time....

Jim,

Still waiting for those numbers.

Total people in the matrix.

Levels 5, 10, and 15

Its been almost 2 weeks now.

[mpatient24]

I am one of the public that Matrix Watch is trying to protect from potential scams. I had a trusted friend tell me about the "Kanosis Opportunity" and so I've been doing some research online. I came across this site, and I've been reading this post and all of it's reply from the beginning. I've just gotten to this post, and I just have to post my opinion. I also am a Christian. And as one I do believe that some legitimate opportunities sometimes present themselves just as scams do. I don't know if I'm convinced enough to sign up for kanosis yet, however I must make a comment.

imlordsfriend - this is the first post I've seen from you and so I'm going to assume that perhaps you did not begin reading from the beginning of this Thread. A poster earlier in the thread brought up church's that were getting involved in kanosis. In Jim Southworth's post, he did comment and confirm that a church or two is using their software, but he in no way has tried to manipulate, or sell a product on the basis of somebody being a christian or church goer. In fact he hasn't brought it up in any other way than to say church's in one sentence along with several other companies, and group types. I do feel that you are attacking somebody without warrant, and that perhaps you should go back and read from the beginning? WWJD?

As for the rest of what's been going on, this has been a lot of very good information. I think a lot of very good questions have been raised, and that a lot of those questions have been answered. As I said, I'm not yet convinced, and actually have a few questions for Jim Sothworth of my own.

1) From the friend that introduced me to Kanosis, and some attachments he has sent me, I'm under the impression that the "matrix" only goes 14 levels deep per person. Wouldn't that in itself insure that it isn't just the people at the "top" that stand to make money, but gives an equal opportunity to anyone that joins up? To me a pyramid is one very large matrix. I have the idea that this MLM is more in a tree style. 14 levels of 2x2.

2) I asked my friend this, but I'm not sure I'm satisfied with his answer. I'm interested in the software and think it could be a great thing for me. I just had to buy a new 400 GB hard drive because I work with so many large art files, and videos in their original form. I'm already using over 200 GB of my new hard drive. According to my friend, I can store all of my data on an online server for just the $22 a month, and access it from any computer with broadband internet access. I want to know if this is true, as well as what else COIL offers.

3) I'm interested in the only community as well. I have a livejournal to stay updated with my friends and family as we are spread out all over the place, and many of the have myspace. Is the kanosis community similar to these two communities.

4) I'm hearing from my friend that the new launch date is May 1st. Is this true.

(As I'm typing this I am realizing that the post I'm replying to is from Feb. If some of these questions have already been answered I apologize and will continue reading.)


How dare you confuse good Christians with Scams!(ROMANS1:25) You try to involve the Christian's as to use them as a OK for Kanosis. You have no right to use Christians in any part of your forums answer or use as a excuse to make it look like you have all these followers, this is a terrible thing to do. How dare you!I want to know what are you going to do if Kanosis falls apart ,like so many who tried this always do?Are you going to personally refund all these good Christians money?What you are not looking at, is all the hurt good people if Kanosis is a scam?I know the people getting involved with this ,they are refinancing there homes and any thing it takes to get in this company based on all of the build up of Christians joining.Your suggestions of Christians supporting Kanosis sounds like a attempt to minipulate good Christian's.This is out of control. I say to you involved, All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law,and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight, but it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous. And for all of you my brothers and sisters please think before you act.Romans 3:13 Their throats are open graves;their tongues practice deceit. The poisons of vipers is on their lips. Always Beware; I pray for all of us,and i know GOD'S Angels Will Prepare The Way.Sometimes greed truly blurs our vision,and we no longer can see the light,we get caught up in the shadow for a moment,then realize it so much warmer in the light! I as a Christian, believe in the only way, the LORDS WAY. God Bless All!

[JimSouthworth]

Are you kidding me? Do you even know what they are trying to sell? They keep saying that all these big companies are using Coil, but they never name the companies. These are companies that have IT staffs. You are telling me that these companies with IT staff don't know how to do a vpn connection?.Concerned,
What are you smoking ??? Axiasoft has sold Coil for use by some large law firms to use with their own internal networks on their own systems, on their own servers for professional services time accounting etc....... Kanosis as I have said for three weeks now sells to individual users who need a seamless secure totally integrated secure solution and you still don't get it because you are so hung up on discrediting and slandering our business model you make yourself look incompetent.

Now, you are right about the other people. That is probably what they are looking for. They are looking for naive people to trust them with their information. It sounds like even if Kanosis was legit in the marketing, they are just using Coil to steel identities and information from the unsuspecting. Now you owe a serious apology to all of us at Kanosis for accusing us of identity theft. I don’t care who the hell you are, that kind of BS is un-called for. I will put my reputation and credibility up against yours anytime oh gutless accuser who has to hide out of fear you might get what you deserve.

And as for your associates who say that Java can not be secured please have look at the US Government NIST site where they will find that there are several JAVA based products and libraries from companies such as RSA which have reached full FIPS 140-2 level 2 certification which none of the present MS “.NET” products do yet. And for those of you in the UK or the rest of the world, the security architechture we are using at Kanosis will easily meet EAL-4 of “Common Criteria” certification. My guess if you guys got together and just arbitrarily decided that JAVA wasn’t inherently secure then you won’t have any idea what I’m referring to…… MS IE is not secure unless it gets help externally.......

[Deso]

Call me dumb, but why do we need COIL? IF ive paid for Microsoft Products then why would I need a product like COIL? In the UK, Its almost 90% certain that a PC you purchase will have MS products in it. End of story. Why buy into web based operating systems? thats just mad..

[Ferret]

Concerned,

Now you owe a serious apology to all of us at Kanosis for accusing us of identity theft. I don’t care who the hell you are, that kind of BS is un-called for. I will put my reputation and credibility up against yours anytime oh gutless accuser who has to hide out of fear you might get what you deserve.
Jim
I have to agree with you that what Concerned said is totally out of line
There is absolutely NO evidence that Kanosis's is involved with identity theft
and I have no idea where he came up with that
I am sure no one else here thinks that too
He does owe you an apology

[Deso]

Whoa... :nono:
Read Concerned's statement again..
He states
"Now, you are right about the other people. That is probably what they are looking for. They are looking for naive people to trust them with their information. It sounds like even if Kanosis was legit in the marketing, they are just using Coil to steel identities and information from the unsuspecting...."

You have to read it like you would say it to get the meaning. He is correct in what he is saying (in my opinion) and if you read the whole post in context I cant find anything wrong with what he is saying. he doesnt say that Kanosis is or maybe even stealing identities. i think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. :crazy:
However Im not a mod but I would find it very strange if this post be deleted. :applause:

[Ferret]

2) I asked my friend this, but I'm not sure I'm satisfied with his answer. I'm interested in the software and think it could be a great thing for me. I just had to buy a new 400 GB hard drive because I work with so many large art files, and videos in their original form. I'm already using over 200 GB of my new hard drive. According to my friend, I can store all of my data on an online server for just the $22 a month, and access it from any computer with broadband internet access. I want to know if this is true, as well as what else COIL offers.
JimS
How much online storage can each member use?
How many GB's or is it truly unlimited?
This is important info that should be on the Kanosis website seeing that you are taking 2 months of peoples money already
When will this file storage be available?
I hope members realize that they will need broadband to take advantage of this and that most broadband plans have an upload that is MUCH slower than their download
Also dial up users will be very limited if they try to use this

[Arzel]

JimS
How much online storage can each member use?
How many GB's or is it truly unlimited?
This is important info that should be on the Kanosis website seeing that you are taking 2 months of peoples money already
When will this file storage be available?
I hope members realize that they will need broadband to take advantage of this and that most broadband plans have an upload that is MUCH slower than their download
Also dial up users will be very limited if they try to use this

I believe the COIL service is limited to broadband access. In anycase, I can't see anyone using it to transfer huge amounts of information on a regular basis. I have a work VPN and it can take a very long time to move huge datasets over the internet, if I need to work on something more than a 100 mb I wait until I am in the office.

[JimSouthworth]

<SNIP>
As for the rest of what's been going on, this has been a lot of very good information. I think a lot of very good questions have been raised, and that a lot of those questions have been answered. As I said, I'm not yet convinced, and actually have a few questions for Jim Sothworth of my own.

1) From the friend that introduced me to Kanosis, and some attachments he has sent me, I'm under the impression that the "matrix" only goes 14 levels deep per person. Wouldn't that in itself insure that it isn't just the people at the "top" that stand to make money, but gives an equal opportunity to anyone that joins up? To me a pyramid is one very large matrix. I have the idea that this MLM is more in a tree style. 14 levels of 2x2. You are absolutely correct and the mathematician I talked to confirmed your opinion as I have also expressed it too, Arzel has also indicated that since this is not a fixed matrix he also had to make adjustments in his opinions as well, But I am certain that none of the guys here will ever admit to the fact that mathematically the model doesn’t fail due to its structure…. It may in their opinion fail due to market or execution reasons…. But then that’s my job and the rest of the executive team to make sure that doesn’t happen so we are all successful over time.

2) I asked my friend this, but I'm not sure I'm satisfied with his answer. I'm interested in the software and think it could be a great thing for me. I just had to buy a new 400 GB hard drive because I work with so many large art files, and videos in their original form. I'm already using over 200 GB of my new hard drive. According to my friend, I can store all of my data on an online server for just the $22 a month, and access it from any computer with broadband internet access. I want to know if this is true, as well as what else COIL offers. It would be totally impractical as well as completely un-profitable for Kanosis to put a typical user's entire hard drive contents out on our servers. However, the contents of “My Documents” folder is very reasonable for most people. We will soon make available a secure encrypted area on our storage facilities that will hold several Gigabytes of disk space as included in each members basic services. Additional storage will also be made available for an additional charge per additional requested incriment and eventually also a shared space that can be accessed by a specific list of members of a predefined work group. This is of course completely independent of the socializing and sharing areas that are part of our “Kanosis Community”. More and better information is due to be released on our new website in next few days.

3) I'm interested in the only community as well. I have a livejournal to stay updated with my friends and family as we are spread out all over the place, and many of the have myspace. Is the kanosis community similar to these two communities. the intention of our community space is very similar to what you are expecting. Those using it so far are very active and happily posting their journals and pictures.

4) I'm hearing from my friend that the new launch date is May 1st. Is this true.

(As I'm typing this I am realizing that the post I'm replying to is from Feb. If some of these questions have already been answered I apologize and will continue reading.) You are correct on the delay in launch date, it is presently scheduled for May 3rd…. we have adjusted it to allow for the installation of additional servers, software, training sites/materials, and several new staff to bolster our 7/24 worldwide deployment. By the launch date, also all the different software systems that is now in BETA release, which includes Coil and the personal website builder will all be upgraded to full commercial release to K1.0

[Arzel]

You are absolutely correct and the mathematician I talked to confirmed your opinion as I have also expressed it too, Arzel has also indicated that since this is not a fixed matrix he also had to make adjustments in his opinions as well, But I am certain that none of the guys here will ever admit to the fact that mathematically the model doesn’t fail due to its structure…. It may in their opinion fail due to market or execution reasons…. But then that’s my job and the rest of the executive team to make sure that doesn’t happen so we are all successful over time.

Please do no twist my words regarding my analysis of the matrix model.

This model DOES NOT provide an equal playing field for all people. Under NO circumstances will all people have the same probility of sucess. Any modifications made in my analysis have to do with the rate of fill within levels, the undeniable fact is that over 90% of Kanosis members cannot expect to earn as much or more than the monthly cost of COIL.

If you would like to have your mathmatician come here and debate the matrix model I would certainly enjoy that.

[ycchen]

I agree with Arzel. Jim, you need to take Arzel's question seriously.

As you are a technical expert who might not familiar with the business site of the equation, I strongly suggest you to invite your colleague (in charge of marketing) to share his/her "algorithm" that can transform an inheritedly unfair and unjust pyramid-matrix model to give fair opportunity to everyone in the pyramid-matrix!

Simply by claiming that you have a brilliant group of people who will ensure that your pyramid-matrix will not fail will convince NO one. We have too many con-artist promising their members that their business model will never fail and ALL of them fail miserably. Absolutely no exception.

Until you show us your formula that everyone wins, otherwise, asking prospect to "trust me, trust me" will not help. Of course, labeling it as "trade secret" will not help much either.

Just look at ALL the kanosis recruiters who are desperately buidling their little pyramid-matrix (why are they still advertising and recruiting? ), ALL of them are all selling kanosis as an investmen opportunity that based on "first in first win" logic -- "join now to be on top"! Why is join early so important if this business model is fair to everyone (join late or early)?

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3889

Jim, you really need to answer this question with your conscience, and not with your profit-driven calculator. Or ask someone who has the expertise to do it for kanosian prospects. Thanks.

[Ferret]

1) From the friend that introduced me to Kanosis, and some attachments he has sent me, I'm under the impression that the "matrix" only goes 14 levels deep per person. Wouldn't that in itself insure that it isn't just the people at the "top" that stand to make money, but gives an equal opportunity to anyone that joins up? To me a pyramid is one very large matrix. I have the idea that this MLM is more in a tree style. 14 levels of 2x2.
I think it is one big pyramid
However you only get paid on 14 levels below you

The trouble with the matrix model is you run out of people very fast
It requires exponential growth
The planet only has so many people......and not many of them will participate in Kanosis
There will always be people left at the bottom of the pyramid

It is the nature of the beast

Level - people - $ per month - proportion of people
0 .......... 1 ..... $36,043 ...... 0.0031%
1 .......... 2 ..... $18,020 ...... 0.0061%
2 .......... 4 ....... $9,009 ...... 0.0122%
3 .......... 8 ....... $4,503 ...... 0.0244%
4 ......... 16 ....... $2,251 ..... 0.0488%
5 ......... 32 ....... $1,124 ..... 0.0977%
6 ......... 64 ......... $561 ...... 0.1953%
7 ........ 128 ........ $279 ...... 0.3906%
8 ........ 256 ......... $139 ...... 0.7813%
9 ........ 512 ........... $68 ...... 1.5625%
10 .... 1,024 ........... $33 ...... 3.1250% 6.25 %
11 ... 2,048 ............ $15 ...... 6.2500% 93.75% not making subscription
12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%

Total people after 14 levels is 32,767.
(table fixed to show people per level instead of cumulative total people)

You can already see at this point only about 6.5% of the members will make enough to pay for their subscription, and who do you think is at the top of the pryamid, why the owners of course

12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%[/B]
15.....32,768
16.....65,536
17.....131,072
18.....262,144
19.....524,288
20....1,048,576 Kanosis claims they will have a million soon as a low estimate
21....2,097,152
22....4,191,304
23....8,388,608
24...16,777,216
25...33,554,432
26...67,777,216
27..134,217,864
28..268,435,456
29..536,870,912
etc

[Arzel]

In order to illustrate how the Kanosis Matrix may fill I have included a few simulations. Two simulations are based off 100,000 members (currently sitting around 5,000 or so), and the third is based off 10,000,000 members.

The first simulations is a quickly filling downward matrix. This model benefits later members as it distributes the commissions down through the matrix. This is what I would consider an extreme example in this direction, to actually stretch the model more results in some very unrealistic assumption about upper level fill rates. Basically you get a very consistant fill rate down through all levels which is highly unlikely based off previous experience that we have encountered with pryamids.

You can see that approximately 12,500 members (about 12.5%) actually generate enough income per month to pay for their coil membership, with about 87.5% coming in under this amount. You can follow this model out to any future number of members with very similar pay rates for the average member. You can also see this pryamid is impossible to fill. Even though I modeled down to 35 levels, you can see that by level 32 you have surpassed the population of the earth.

In the second simulation I used a quickly saturated model. This model benefits those at top by quickly filling their levels. This is also an extreme model in that it is unreasonable that levels fill that quickly at the top. In this example you can see that about 8,200 (about 8.2%) members generate enough income to pay for their COIL membership, with about 93.8% coming up short. You can also see how this really benefits those at the top. This is also an impossible pryamid to fill.

The third model looks at how the pryamid might fill if Kanosis reaches its 10,000,000 members. As you can see about 1,000,000 members (about 10%) generate enough to pay for their service, and about 90% 9,000,000 members do not. I have done a ton of different variations, and the only constant result is that about 90% will never generate enough income to pay for their service, and very few will generate enough to really say they are making any money.


NOTE: Ferrets previous numbers (message above) are based off my completely saturated model, which is where the 6.25% comes from. This was based off my initial understanding that the pryamid filled downward completely. These new models assume a randome distribution of fill rate down through the levels more approximately what will really happen.

If Jim would supply the previous requested information, I could generate a much better model falling somewhere inbetween the first two models.

[mpatient24]

I'm glad to see that somebody else is asking this question.

"I asked my friend this, but I'm not sure I'm satisfied with his answer. I'm interested in the software and think it could be a great thing for me. I just had to buy a new 400 GB hard drive because I work with so many large art files, and videos in their original format. I'm already using over 200 GB of my new hard drive. According to my friend, I can store all of my data on an online server for just the $22 a month, and access it from any computer with broadband internet access. I want to know if this is true, as well as what else COIL offers."


JimS
How much online storage can each member use?
How many GB's or is it truly unlimited?
This is important info that should be on the Kanosis website seeing that you are taking 2 months of peoples money already
When will this file storage be available?
I hope members realize that they will need broadband to take advantage of this and that most broadband plans have an upload that is MUCH slower than their download
Also dial up users will be very limited if they try to use this

[mpatient24]

Thank you for answering these questions. So, basically the friend that introduced me was mistaken in how much space would be available for storage online. I was skeptical of that for the exact reasons you gave.

I'm not asking for a definitive, but approx. how many GB do you think will be available at the $22/mo. fee?

While I'm not as skeptical as some, my fiance and several of our friends are. I'm doing the research to decide for myself if I want to do this, and to then be able to convince my fiance to let me. (I work from home and he pays the bills.) I wasn't able to find enough detailed information on the COIL system on the kanosis website. Would you please list its specs for me?

[JimSouthworth]

I believe the COIL service is limited to broadband access. In anycase, I can't see anyone using it to transfer huge amounts of information on a regular basis. I have a work VPN and it can take a very long time to move huge datasets over the internet, if I need to work on something more than a 100 mb I wait until I am in the office.Let me answer both Arzel and Ferret’s posts on this subject in one…. The present documents we are reviewing has 6 Giga-Bytes to be included in a membership. The final number on that is going to be in that area…. We haven’t finalized it just yet because of technical design reasons as to exactly which RAID configuration will be our normal configuration. One way we have to have more frequent replication across world wide clusters, the other way we don’t have to worry as much since the contents of the drives can be recalculated locally much faster.

Now as to the conversation that all four of you have just had with the previous posts….. Look I don’t expect any of you especially on this forum to say anything that even slightly looks like an endorsement, but you also have carefully chosen your words so as to no longer describe us as a blatant SCAM as was the case when I first started these posts weeks ago.

The other two points I wish to make have to do with the model itself. Given the 14 level limit, the matrix never goes mathematically unstable…. Now I didn’t say anything about fairness yet, just that the cash flow doesn’t go negative on the commissions being paid out being more than monthly recurring revenues for services being collected.

Now for two issues on fairness… you will need to extrapolate from your table, but a minor but reasonable correction. Since the monthly increment is $22 that means the number of users necessary to reach breakeven is 20 (20 sales of $1.10 = $22) that means the actual percentage is not 6.25% but closer to 10%...... I realize this is minor item, but it is only fair to be a little more accurate. And as hard as you deny that a sliding starting point allows almost any newcomer to build a reasonable business below himself (in other words at 4.5 levels down he breaks even) that in fact my statement is correct.

Now as to fairness overall, I WILL get he person responsible for discussing the exact model and algorithm to discuss it with you, but there is one simple and I would think reasonable request. At least reframe from blatant judgments until he has accurately communicated the model and you have been able to acknowledge the basic elements, even if our opinions may differ on the “Fairness Issue”. As I said earlier, I don’t expect you or ever in my wildest delusions think that you would say something favorable, all I expect is the same honesty you have expected of me.

Oh YCCHen, I really do appreciate your personal input and to that end, we shut down more sites today for violating our terms of service. As I said before, this will be a continuous job for me and my team over the next few weeks as we get ready for our formal launch activities… I believe you will even see some of the input that both you and Arzel have offered that we should put up on our new Kanosis website.

mpatient24, Your friend is not completely mistaken about the missing disk space limits.... at the time we started making the feature available a few weeks back on the present BETA version of the Kanosis services platform we were amazed at how many people just decided to try to put their entire hard drive contents on us. Obviously this also would take a ton of bandwidth and is not very practical for many other reasons as well.

[mpatient24]

I see your point in that there is not an unlimited amount of people in the world, and that if you take the total of people and subtract the number of people that will never sign up for kanosis, you have a more limited pool of possible people for your matrix. As the matrix for each person grows the number of possible people is less. The further down the matrix, you would start to run out of people to recruit. With nobody left to recruit, the people towards the bottom wouldn't have much of an income potential.

The way I see it, everyone is given the same number of slots. With the forced matrix, the people at the bottom don't have as much opportunity because there is less people available. That would be one reason to get in early.

However, I think that people that get in at the end and work their butts off, and people that get in at the beginning and don't work at all could potentially make the same amount of money, albeit a completely different work load.

[Ferret]

Thank you for answering these questions. So, basically the friend that introduced me was mistaken in how much space would be available for storage online. I was skeptical of that for the exact reasons you gave.

I'm not asking for a definitive, but approx. how many GB do you think will be available at the $22/mo. fee?
Jim already answered this above and as this is not addressed on the Kanosis site many people have misunderstood the file storage space
I have seen a lot of people that think they get to upload their whole computer


It would be totally impractical as well as completely un-profitable for Kanosis to put a typical user's entire hard drive contents out on our servers. However, the contents of “My Documents” folder is very reasonable for most people. We will soon make available a secure encrypted area on our storage facilities that will hold several Gigabytes of disk space as included in each members basic services. Additional storage will also be made available for an additional charge per additional requested incriment

[Arzel]

Now for two issues on fairness… you will need to extrapolate from your table, but a minor but reasonable correction. Since the monthly increment is $22 that means the number of users necessary to reach breakeven is 20 (20 sales of $1.10 = $22) that means the actual percentage is not 6.25% but closer to 10%...... I realize this is minor item, but it is only fair to be a little more accurate. And as hard as you deny that a sliding starting point allows almost any newcomer to build a reasonable business below himself (in other words at 4.5 levels down he breaks even) that in fact my statement is correct.

You will note I pointed out the correction regarding 6.25%. I still disagree with the notion that almost anyone has a chance to build a downline to the point of breakeven, especially when you consider the probalistic ability to generate new downline as the matrix grows beyond a certain level. While it may be possible in theory (assuming an infinite population) it won't happen in reality.

[Ferret]

JimS
One more question......
What are the fees to use the Debit Card when you withdraw your commissions
Is there an annual fee too?

I hope Kanosis will state these in the updated website

[JimSouthworth]

Ferret,
I will get a complete fee schedule ASAP..... they have a page on these for the new web site... it includes all the basic stuff as well as the value added services to allow services like funds transfers and monetary conversions as well.

[Webwatch]

Hi Ferret
I may be able to help with this. I'm not trying to steal Jim's thunder.
Uniclear card fee info can be found here:
http://www.uniclear.com/index.php?tab=services&service=debitcards

Uniclear also charge $15 for arrangement & delivery of the Debit card.

Also as per many online payment providers are under pressure to stop their services being used for ponzi schemes & illegal activities the terms and conditions also mention this:
Excluded services. UniClear will not knowingly provide services to anyone engaged in child pornography of any kind, or businesses that promote or support racism or terrorism. Also UniClear will not knowingly participate or co-operate with advance fee frauds such as the well known Nigerian scam, or ponzi schemes.

I must state that I don't consider Kanosis to be a Ponzi, only a Pyramid Scheme and I dont think all pyramid schemes are Ponzis (Although Charles may differ if he was still with us Today.)

[concerned]

Concerned,
What are you smoking ??? Axiasoft has sold Coil for use by some large law firms to use with their own internal networks on their own systems, on their own servers for professional services time accounting etc.......

What are you talking about. I thought Coil was software for you to safely store files on offsite servers. Now it is an accounting package? You are confusing me. Here's an idea. Why doesn't you company tell the public EXACTLY what the software does, and provide the specs. Maybe provide a FREE beta test, so that people like me who are IT Managers can evaluate if the product is for my company.

Kanosis as I have said for three weeks now sells to individual users who need a seamless secure totally integrated secure solution and you still don't get it because you are so hung up on discrediting and slandering our business model you make yourself look incompetent.

You just said in the previous sentence that you sold it to large law firms. Who are you trying to fool? If you sell to both, then just tell us that. You contradict yourself in so many places.

Now you owe a serious apology to all of us at Kanosis for accusing us of identity theft.

Why do I owe you an appology? I have never seen anywhere where your company shows any guarantees of security. Why don't you provide your potential customers an assurance of some type? You have provided NOTHING to make your potential customers feel secure with your service.

I will put my reputation and credibility up against yours anytime oh gutless accuser who has to hide out of fear you might get what you deserve.

First of all, I reserve the right to my freedoms, and Freedom of Speach in this country is allowed. Secondly, I am not selling anything, and not trying to present a shady business as a legitimate business. Finally, I have to remain hidden, because of all the nutcases out there that I have revealed as scammers. Don't you know how many would want to harm me because I have stoped them from scamming others?

And as for your associates who say that Java can not be secured please have look at the US Government NIST site where they will find that there are several JAVA based products and libraries from companies such as RSA which have reached full FIPS 140-2 level 2 certification which none of the present MS “.NET” products do yet.

I'm not too knowledgable of Java security, but I do know that there are other programming languages that when compiling the same code, can make the program run MUCH faster. But since you brought up Java Security, here's an idea. Why don't you just tell us which "products and libraries" COIL uses that have reached the full FIPS 140-2 level 2 certification. Maybe that will satisfy some people around here.

And for those of you in the UK or the rest of the world, the security architechture we are using at Kanosis will easily meet EAL-4 of “Common Criteria” certification.

Again, please tell us how you will do this?

[concerned]

So I guess Microsoft is trying to get naive people to buy into their Office Live product, or for that matter any company that is offering this type of product, to try and steal identities and information from the unsuspecting. That is pathetic thinking… :nono:

Microsoft provides DETAILED information about what their products actually do. They don't try to hide the details with false hopes of becoming wealthy. Until Coil can provide DETAILED information about their software, then I will always be skeptacle.

[concerned]

There is absolutely NO evidence that Kanosis's is involved with identity theft

That is funny you mention evidence. There is also absolutely NO evidence that Coil is secure.

[concerned]

Arzel has also indicated that since this is not a fixed matrix he also had to make adjustments in his opinions as well, But I am certain that none of the guys here will ever admit to the fact that mathematically the model doesn’t fail due to its structure….

Maybe if you would provide Arzel the numbers that he has asked you for, he can finalize the model and make it acurate, and make it no longer an opinion. What do you say. Can you get the numbers?

[Ferret]

That is funny you mention evidence. There is also absolutely NO evidence that Coil is secure.
I basically agree with everything you say......
COIL is a BIG ?
There are too many unanswered questions
How long does it take to get the very simple answer of how many members etc?
I would think the Kanosis team would be using their COIL software to stay in touch at the speed of the internet and YET it takes weeks to get an answer?

Doesn't sound like a good endorsement to me....
Jim just gives excuses that the guy in Cyprus is out sick if I remember correctly
Too sick to use a computer?
Doesn't have one at home?
Must be in the ER

I still don't see how you acusing Kanosis of identity theft is justified at this moment in time
It seemed to be over the top and doesn't help the discussion
Lets stick to the facts

Was that what you intended to say?
or was it misinterpreted?

[concerned]

I still don't see how you acusing Kanosis of identity theft is justified at this moment in time
It seemed to be over the top and doesn't help the discussion
Lets stick to the facts

Was that what you intended to say?
or was it misinterpreted?

Well, for one it is sort of what I intended to say, but maybe it came out wrong. I said it SOUNDED like they were trying to steel identities. I ALSO meant (but didn't say) that they are also not giving any assurances that identity theft won't happen on their system. They have not provided any information to say that they are secure in ANY way. Finally, the reason I asked about identity theft is simple. It is one more thing they now have to defend. As we have seen in the past, they cannot really defend themselves too well, so this provides both sides potentially something positive. If they can successfully defend that they are not steeling identities, then why can't they defend the other questions here? If they cannot successfully defend identity theft, it will make people more skeptical. Think about the whole situation here.

[Ferret]

Thanks for the clarification.......
I thought it needed to be cleared up

From what I know now I would NOT trust Kanosis with ANY of my sensitive info
Probably not any of my non sensitive info either
I don't trust any online storage
I will keep backing up stuff I can't afford to lose on CD, DVD, partitions on my hard drives and making disk images
6 GB isn't much anyway

PS: steel = steal

[nepatriots]

Think about the whole situation here.
I think I see the whole situation here. I came in here really thinking I would get some good answers to some of the questions I had when getting into Kanosis... and I have received that from some of the posts. But there are others here that are CLEARLY out to take a shotgun approach to discrediting this company. Throw up as much crap and see what sticks…
What are you talking about. I thought Coil was software for you to safely store files on offsite servers. Now it is an accounting package?
Please do us the favor of reading the posts before commenting… JimSouthworth said Coil has time accounting... there is a difference.

[nepatriots]

Finally, I have to remain hidden, because of all the nutcases out there that I have revealed as scammers. Don't you know how many would want to harm me because I have stoped them from scamming others?
You don't think this same excuse could be used by JimSouthworth? If this turns out Kanosis is the really BAD Company you all portray it to be then there would be plenty of people out to get him. I commend him for standing up for what he believes in...

[Webwatch]

I think I see the whole situation here. I came in here really thinking I would get some good answers to some of the questions I had when getting into Kanosis... and I have received that from some of the posts. But there are others here that are CLEARLY out to take a shotgun approach to discrediting this company. Throw up as much crap and see what sticks…

I know I am one of the others you consider to be taking a shotgun approach, but I make it no secret that I think Kanosis is a Pyramid Scheme that will leave many members expecting large returns that will never materialize. To call it a Blatant Scam even for me is a little harsh as there is nothing blatant about it.

Just because I don't agree with you does that make me wrong and vice versa.

If you have already paid your $59 to join Kanosis the last thing you want is someone to tell you that a bad investment has been made. On the positive side you may have been in early enough to get some return on your investment.
If you dont agree with me you will stay a member and enjoy the benefits of Coil and being a member of Kanosis. If however after 2 months you consider Coil and Kanosis a bad investment or you are not getting what you expected then you can leave, its your decision.

Please dont leave this forum just because you think this is a witch hunt it is a debate and Jim's comments are welcome as are yours.
If I was to visit some of the Kanosis promoting forums and post negative comments they would no doubt be censored. This does not happen here.

Oh and could you please quote whole sentences from posts instead of just snippets incase they maybe taken out of context.

All I urge everyone to do in making a decision whether to join, is not to base that decision on the profit potential alone and never use a 3rd party server to connect to any online banking systems (I'm sure most financial institution's would agree with me on this bit).

I am also sure Jim is being as honest as he can be in all his posts to defend Kanosis, but sometimes you can be too close to a problem to see it and need to step back and take another look.
I must also applaud Jim for taking the time to come here to what can be a very harsh environment at times (Sorry Jim if this comes across to patronising).

[nepatriots]

Just because I don't agree with you does that make me wrong and vice versa.
I totally agree... and I honestly do appreciate hearing the other side and having a discussion about it. :)


If you dont agree with me you will stay a member and enjoy the benefits of Coil and being a member of Kanosis. If however after 2 months you consider Coil and Kanosis a bad investment or you are not getting what you expected then you can leave, its your decision.
I promise that if this turns into something bad I will be the first to admit it to everyone!


Oh and could you please quote whole sentences from posts instead of just snippets incase they maybe taken out of context.
I understand and will do that going forward...


All I urge everyone to do in making a decision whether to join, is not to base that decision on the profit potential alone and never use a 3rd party server to connect to any online banking systems (I'm sure most financial institution's would agree with me on this bit).
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this... :yes:

[Jerrid]

Jim,

I applaud your loyalty to Kanosis and its members. It's not easy to come to this "forum" and deal with these attacks, but you're handling yourself magnificently. It shows me what kind of man you are, and positively reflects the character you possess. I can see why you were brought on to be a part of Kanosis' management team. Your knowledge and insight will definitely contribute to the success of Kanosis.

All others,

I can't imagine how this thread would read if Jim had not come to Kanosis' defense. I am shocked to see so many "scam experts" discrediting everything about something they know nothing about! The only scam I see is the one coming from the critics. From what I understand, none of you have seen or even used COIL, but you are quick to offer up your opinions as if you have. I have to agree with nepatriots, when he said some are here performing a witch hunt. The tone of some of these posts go to show that a few of you already have your mind made up and are not willing to see it any other way. How does that help provide for an open-minded discussion? Trying to ruin the reputation of a company before they even get off the ground is bad business. What gives you the right!? It would be entirely different if one of you were Kanosis members complaining about Kanosis, at least you might know something about it. But you are not, and until you have personally sampled the product/service, I will discredit everything you post. Does the phrase "don't knock it until you try it" ring a bell. I'm glad I am intelligent enough to make my own decisions and not be influenced by the reckless words of others.

[concerned]

Jim,

I applaud your loyalty to Kanosis and its members. It's not easy to come to this "forum" and deal with these attacks, but you're handling yourself magnificently. It shows me what kind of man you are, and positively reflects the character you possess.

Really? You think he is magnificant? How about the fact that he does not provide the information we ask. If you read earlier on this thread, real MLM businesses are REQUIRED to provide real numbers on the amount of members they have. It has been over 2 weeks, and he cannot supply a simple answer. He avoids it like the plague. Remember, if there is a good database, he should be able to open it up, and find the number of members with 1 click.

I can see why you were brought on to be a part of Kanosis' management team. Your knowledge and insight will definitely contribute to the success of Kanosis.

I think he has said he is part of the technical team, but I may be mistaken, since he has said several contradicting thinks on here before. Anyway, he doesn't know a whole lot about management from my observations.

From what I understand, none of you have seen or even used COIL, but you are quick to offer up your opinions as if you have.

I would really like to see the product. Where can I pickup the BETA version for free? Oh, that's right. This is the only software in the world where you have to pay to use BETA. OK, what about security assurances. They have not assured me ONCE that they are secure, so I don't feel comfortable trying them out. I don't want to take the security risk.

Trying to ruin the reputation of a company before they even get off the ground is bad business.

Nobody here is trying to ruin their reputation. We are asking questions that every consumer has the right to ask. The fact that they cannot provide straight answers, or REAL information about the products they sell is ruining their reputation. By the way, we are not a business, so we cannot do "bad business."

What gives you the right!?

The United States Constitution. The first ammendment is the right for freedom of speach. I believe that is what gives my the right.

It would be entirely different if one of you were Kanosis members complaining about Kanosis, at least you might know something about it. But you are not, and until you have personally sampled the product/service, I will discredit everything you post.

Again, I ask. Where is the free beta test? The demo? The specs? The assurances? All I see is "you can make money."

[Webwatch]

Hello Jerrid and welcome to the discussion or witch hunt which ever you prefer.

As you appear to be my opposite in this debate I welcome your input and will not attempt to dis-credit every post you make.

Lets get one thing clear I consider myself closed minded to the fact that Kanosis is using a Pyramid Scheme Marketing stratergy which will not benefit all users or even allow most to earn the potential income that has been subliminally advertised. I dont even consider the use of the phrase MLM valid as there is no end product which an end user could buy without the need or incentive to recruit others.

Regarding Coil, I honestly have no experience of using it so cannot make any valid comments to its usefullness at this time. All i can say is that to upload any personnal information to Kanosis servers is unwise. One thing I am interested in is the Movie Download facility as here in the UK we are unabe to download new movies (legally) and I would be willing to discuss what compression codec is being used (preferably by PM) to convert 3GB Movies to 120MB without any drastic drop in quality.

One question for you Jerrid which I would appreciate a 100% honest answer to is:
Did you join Kanosis to make money or because of the Coil Software?.
This is not a trick question.

If you could give us all a review of Coil and examples of how you have found it usefull that would be appreciated also.

Lastly for now if Jim had not joined this thread it would no doubt have stopped at 2 or 3 pages and not become the hot topic (6000+ views) it is now. As I said before there aren't many forums concerning Kanosis which would allow this sort of open uncensored debate.

[mpatient24]

Hi! I have recently made the decision to join Kanosis. I plan to sign up this evening. I have read this entire thread. I've spoken with many people, including friends I have in IT fields with Halliburton, Ernst & Young, and Continental Airlines. Though they also are skeptical, as my fiance is, they can't find any reason to completely discredit it. The yearly investment is $240. That is the most I stand to lose in deciding to do this, and I can get out at any time before.

My 100% honest answer is that I'm interested in the software as well as the money opportunity. I'd like to give my friends in the IT industry access to the software once I've subscribed so that I can get their reviews before I actually start to use it. I do plan to practice all precaution. I won't put sensitive material on their storage, and I won't view my financial institutions through their browsers, however, if my IT friends feel it is safe, I do intend to use it. The 6 GB of storage is ideal for college students. A friend of mine that just graduated with her Graphic Design degree had to constantly transfer data back and forth between the school, her apt, and then to her parent's house when she went home on the weekends. Those files could get very large, and often her 1GB USB Drive wasn't enough space.

As far as the money opportunity, I would think that if you don't see your matrix getting filled in a reasonable time frame, then you know that if stay in, it is for the software, but ultimately your own decision.

The friend that introduced me to this product, honestly told me today that he hasn't really started using the software other than to play around with some of the features because it has been experiencing a lot of updates, and changes on a regular basis. He is in it for the possibility of making money.

I have a livejournal to stay in touch with some of my friends that are spread out in different states. They pay for their accounts for the extra features, though I use the free version. Several other friends have myspace. I'm interested in seeing how the community compares.

I am entering into this with my eyes wide open, (though I must say I think a few people on this site have their eyes wide shut, and refuse to have an open mind ~ this is not directed at a specific person, so don't anybody take it as a personal insult)

I'm willing to pay the $59 to see the software, and the community. Whether I will tell my friends and family about it remains to be seen, and will be decided after the software has been given a review by my friends in the IT field. I will be happy to post pictures of the software, list its capabilities, and give my opinions. I've already spoken with Jim Southworth and he is completely okay with my doing this.

Again, I remain skeptical, but also open-minded and I will certainly be posting my continued opinions. Somebody will have to teach me how to post pictures.

Thanks!!

[Ferret]

The yearly investment is $240. That is the most I stand to lose in deciding to do this, and I can get out at any time before.

I am entering into this with my eyes wide open, (though I must say I think a few people on this site have their eyes wide shut, and refuse to have an open mind ~ this is not directed at a specific person, so don't anybody take it as a personal insult)

I will be happy to post pictures of the software, list its capabilities, and give my opinions. I've already spoken with Jim Southworth and he is completely okay with my doing this.

Again, I remain skeptical, but also open-minded and I will certainly be posting my continued opinions. Somebody will have to teach me how to post pictures.
Great post some reviews

Actually the yearly cost would be $279, not $240
$22 x 12 + $15

Posting an image is easy
Go to http://imageshack.us/
Find the file on your hard drive and upload it
Copy the direct link to your post
Highlight the link address
Then click on the Insert Image button below the [Size] drop down above to create the BB code
Quote this message to see the BB code of the image below
You can manually type the code in too
hxxp://xxxxyourimage.jpg Just take out the 2 spaces to make it work

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4920/kanosisgraph50002bk.jpg

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4882/kanosisforcedmatrix9tg.jpg

http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/425/kanosisnuclear6ju.jpg

[logicRules]

Ok, I have spent most of the day reading this entire thread, and I must say I have been quite fascinated with it. I do thank Jim for his input as well.

First my comments:
It seems clear and irrefutable that not everyone who joins will enjoy the same opportunity to build a matrix below them - the only question is, how soon will it saturate - because it must eventually saturate. If anyone denies this simple fact, I must necessarily lose confidence in whatever else that person says.

Let's take a brief look at why this must be - well it's obvious isn't it? There are a finite number of subjects who could or would participate, and once anyone of those participants occupies a space in a matrix, they are no longer available, period. So how does one argue that? A better position would be to admit this limitation (not a flaw - a limitation), and openly admit and discuss the ramifications of it. For me it boils down to just a couple of things. One, is there a "legitimate product" involved? And by "legitimate", I mean does the product stand on it's own - that is does it have sufficient value WITHOUT the opportunity of earning the matrix income? If there is, then here's how to look at it IMHO. If you get in on it early, then you have the good fortune of being in the position of having a lot of opportunity to sell it to others because the pool of "others" is sill largely untapped. Simple, right - so then you are simply earning commissions on anyone else you get to buy the "legitimate product" - just like any other sales gig. And as long as everyone understands the limitation that eventually you run out of people to sell the "legit product" to - BUT you still get something of value for your money - what's the problem? Just call a spade a spade, and let adults make an informed choice for themselves. I for one would not harbor ill will if I got in too late - I knew what I was getting into, and after all, I still got the "legit product" that was being sold to me. Regardless if it were just for the money that I was joining for, if it is presented with "full disclosure" as explained above, then I think were all okay.

Allow me to put it another way - there are two opportunities being presented here, and this is how it should be presented. One, there is a great software package that does what people need it to do, and is well worth the asking price (I don't know this, but lets go hypothetical for the sake of discussion). And two, if you would care to help sell our great software package to others, well then, you could (or not) become handsomely rewarded for your efforts - it's just the democratic way, right? Right.

That being said, here is what all the concern is about. If the product is NOT a "legitimate product" (and this is exactly what many here are simply trying to determine - do you understand that Jim?), and just a sham to create a pyramid profit scheme, then I and the others here will condom such a scheme, as there will no doubt be many many losers if the matrix commissions is the only thing of value.

So which is it? For my money, if we can meet the "legit product" requirement, AND the "full disclosure" requirement then I'm good with it.

Now an important question:

I have heard the term forced matrix, and I want to know if among other things, does that mean that anyone in my matrix that is not currently doing the minimum (22 cv or better), will automatically be moved out of the matrix, and free that space for someone who will do the minimum cv?

And if not, do I have the power to remove anyone from my matrix that is not participating in cv activity?

And if not, then may I suggest that there be some mechanism by which inactive members can be moved out of their matrix after an appropriate time?

Thanks for taking the time to read this long post, and I'm glad I found this forum.

logicRules

[JimSouthworth]

<SNIP> It has been over 2 weeks, and he cannot supply a simple answer. He avoids it like the plague. Remember, if there is a good database, he should be able to open it up, and find the number of members with 1 click. and I CAN get a good estimate of the numbers in a few clicks, BUT ALL the contents of the data base is governed by a set of security policies that are designed to protect the members and their information. I helped design, write, and now enforce those policies. “Concerned”, Your "Mad Dog" tactics do not serve you or the others on this list. Your singular abrasive disrespectful attitude and comments are completely uncalled for. I guess you must be the “bad cop” in this “Good Cop, Bad Cop” interrogation. Besides, It is not my final decision alone to supply the numbers to you, it is the option of other members of our management team.

Frankly, after disclosing everything we have and have offered to go further into the actual algorithms in detail, I can see no positive value and any constructive reason to supply that information in a public forum at this time. I can only see you attempting to find other ways to twist it to serve your own PERSONAL attacks on Kanosis. When these discussions are kept to conceptual and implementations then there will be the continued openness that I have shown since the beginning of this witch hunt. For what possible POSITIVE reason could the actual numbers be used at this point?? Arzel understands the structure of our commission plan, and most of the others from MW do as well based on their questions and comments.

think he has said he is part of the technical team, but I may be mistaken, since he has said several contradicting thinks on here before. Anyway, he doesn't know a whole lot about management from my observations. I am not going to even respond to this slander

I would really like to see the product. Where can I pickup the BETA version for free? Oh, that's right. This is the only software in the world where you have to pay to use BETA. BECAUSE it is not the COIL software we are selling, it is the service offering that uses Coil as an interface…. I just went back and counted, this is the 21st time I have said that in this forum. Why is it that you can’t understand that and everyone else does??? Including the Hundreds of those who have obviously been following this discussion.


OK, what about security assurances. They have not assured me ONCE that they are secure, so I don't feel comfortable trying them out. I don't want to take the security risk. Then you haven't read and understood what has been said here and on our website about security and assurances. If you had even the slightest understanding of how to implement a secure environment you would understand that I or Kanosis will not ever discuss the security measures we have implemented in any public forum, that would be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. We will discuss, as we have, the certification levels of the technologies we use. We will discuss the credentials and experience of our staff who have the responsibility. We will discuss the certifications of the software modules and algorithms that have been incorporated, BUT we will never discuss in detail any of our security provisions, designs, or processes. Nobody who is seriously involved in real security does that or will ever do that. If they do, then WORRY !!!
Nobody here is trying to ruin their reputation. We are asking questions that every consumer has the right to ask. The fact that they cannot provide straight answers, or REAL information about the products they sell is ruining their reputation. By the way, we are not a business, so we cannot do "bad business." No, you can’t do “Bad Business” but you sure can make yourself look bad by asking the same questions over and over again because you don’t seem to understand what is so obvious to everyone else. To be further blunt, you are not a consumer of our service, if you do not wish to honor the information as we have shown it to you then you don’t have to buy our service. But we have no responsibility or sane reason to disclose all our business strategies, methods, and “secret sauce” to someone who has blatantly indicated he wants to damage our company or our personal reputations.
The United States Constitution. The first ammendment is the right for freedom of speach. I believe that is what gives my the right. here is you are wrong, Kanosis is an international company with an international scope and infrastructure. We are governed by the laws of ALL the countries we touch and at the same time the self-enforcement of this wondrous medium we use called the “Internet”. The most basic rules are those of honesty and truth not anonymous character assassination or irresponsible “over the top” accusations. So to put it in your perspective "the freedom of not speaking" when I a choose so as well.
Again, I ask. Where is the free beta test? The demo? The specs? The assurances? All I see is "you can make money." The reason you have not seen the things you ask for, is OBVIOUSLY that you haven’t read the material that have been supplied on even the early Kanosis web-site or here in this forum. Well the only real answer to this is that there are several thousand people already using the system and more each day, and many have tried to get a word in here without being ridiculed, your associates have been trying to encourage that discussion as have I. I just hung up the phone with another one of a dozen such people who have tracked me down to talk directly is the last few days. "Concerned", your self righteous “Over the Top” behavior is counter to open dialog.

[mpatient24]

There is a Kanosis call going on right now that started at 7:30. It is going through in detail what COIL and the Kanosis service offer. Again, the COIL service is being described in detail, so for those of you still asking what it is... you may want to listen in.

1(641)793-7500
Access Code
141829

[Arzel]

and I CAN get a good estimate of the numbers in a few clicks, BUT ALL the contents of the data base is governed by a set of security policies that are designed to protect the members and their information. I helped design, write, and now enforce those policies. “Concerned”, Your "Mad Dog" tactics do not serve you or the others on this list. Your singular abrasive disrespectful attitude and comments are completely uncalled for. I guess you must be the “bad cop” in this “Good Cop, Bad Cop” interrogation. Besides, It is not my final decision alone to supply the numbers to you, it is the option of other members of our management team.

Frankly, after disclosing everything we have and have offered to go further into the actual algorithms in detail, I can see no positive value and any constructive reason to supply that information in a public forum at this time. I can only see you attempting to find other ways to twist it to serve your own PERSONAL attacks on Kanosis. When these discussions are kept to conceptual and implementations then there will be the continued openness that I have shown since the beginning of this witch hunt. For what possible POSITIVE reason could the actual numbers be used at this point?? Arzel understands the structure of our commission plan, and most of the others from MW do as well based on their questions and comments.


I would like the actual numbers so that I can accurately determine how the global matrix will fill through time. I think prospective members should be aware of their actual probilities of obtaining a given income. I am pretty confident my current model will do quite well, but it would be nice to confirm it.

[Arzel]

Here is my best model for 10,000,000 members.

Assuming they ever reach 10,000,000 members that is.



http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3896/image0138jx.gif

[Ferret]

Here is my best model for 10,000,000 members.

Assuming they ever reach 10,000,000 members that is.
You and I both know they have no chance of getting 10,000,000

Why didn't you do the graph for 1,000.000 at most?

I would say more like 500,000 if they are lucky before it stalls out

Wouldn't that make a big difference?
Is it much work to regenerate the graph for a different number?

PS: Great job as usual
Could you describe how you generate a graph like that?

[Jerrid]

Hey Ferret, or should I say weasel! How about you post your pic!

[Webwatch]

Could the photo be removed if possible as it does nothing to help the debate.

I would post my own photo to balance things out but this would throw the whole thread into hysterics as I am certainley no oil painting. In fact my partner insists on using the double bag method (one for her in case mine falls off) during brief moments of intimacy.

Sorry to go off topic but a bit of lite relief sometimes helps.

[Ferret]

Hey Ferret, or should I say weasel! How about you post your pic!
Sorry can't edit my post....
What is wrong with the pic?
The pic is easily found at http://www.southworth.org

OK, here is my pic
Actually a relative of the polecat and a domesticated animal

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/306/ferret5cm.jpg

[Houston]

Wow!

This has been both an informative and stimulating forum. I have followed all the posts and I had to finally jump in. Some raise valid questions and concerns, others just like to talk. It’s like listening to someone complain about politics or how the government abuses their powers however, they do not register to vote. So instead of helping to solve the problem they are actually the problem.

Most of you have questions regarding Kanosis and its COIL product. You would be able to see what’s available and probably get a lot of your questions answered if you become a member. (Who me? Spend 59 bucks when I can just criticize on the sidelines). Remember you can drop out any time you like if it fails to meet any of your expectations. Besides you be covered till the launch date and privy to any new information that is released and you could share that info here. Oh, but then the forum may not be so stimulating, then again maybe it would.

[Webwatch]

Welcome to the thread Houston.
Great to see some new members getting involved.

Not sure I agree with the being part of the problem bit, for this to happen I would have to join Kanosis then start enticing others to join under me to build a Pyramid of my own by advertising the potential of earning a fortune.

Any new Kanosis member's out there that are reading this thread and feel you have something to add or just want to disagree with me on the Pyramid selling technique please join in.
Please also share with us your experience of using coil and any examples of how its been usefull would be great.
Also let us know your main reason for joining Kanosis whether it was for the potential of earning a fortune or just to use the software.

Anyone undecided about whether to join Kanosis or not and has any questions that haven't yet been addressed please ask them.

[logicRules]

Hey Webwatch - I am new to MW as well - any comments on my first post above would be welcome.

And to Jim, I posted a question about matrix placement in my original post above, but perhaps you missed it - could you take a look and reply to those questions?

[mpatient24]

Good point. :applause: That's exactly what I'm going to do. Yes, I'm a little skeptical, but open minded enough to invest $59 to check our the service, the product, and the money making opportunity. In my post above I stated that I would post my findings here, but only Ferret seemed interested in my actually doing so. I agree that some people here probably aren't as interested as they say in the details, and instead prefer to "criticize from the sidelines".

When it comes to a "pyramid" don't all companies have some sort of one? And anybody at the top in any company will make more money than those at the bottom. That is a readily understood concept. As long as everybody that signs up understands that, then what exactly IS the problem? They are either in it for the possibility of making money, or for the community and product.

Either way, why does everybody here that is so against it, care so much? I'm signing up and I'm aware of the risk and what I'm doing. I think the majority of others signing up are too.


Most of you have questions regarding Kanosis and its COIL product. You would be able to see what’s available and probably get a lot of your questions answered if you become a member. (Who me? Spend 59 bucks when I can just criticize on the sidelines). Remember you can drop out any time you like if it fails to meet any of your expectations. Besides you be covered till the launch date and privy to any new information that is released and you could share that info here. Oh, but then the forum may not be so stimulating, then again maybe it would.

[Webwatch]

Hello Logic
I think you are of a similar opinion to me on this regarding the potential or rather lack of it for anyone to make a huge financial return from joining Kanosis and you make some interseting points in your post.

I must make it clear I am not trying to protect anyone or stop anyone Joining Kanosis.
I disagree with the need for a Pyramid Scheme in any business especially one that professes to be an MLM.

I also think everyone has the right to spend their money as they choose.
But if you are joining Kanosis with the only intention of earning a fortune from recruiting others then this I believe will not happen.

[Arzel]

Good point. :applause: That's exactly what I'm going to do. Yes, I'm a little skeptical, but open minded enough to invest $59 to check our the service, the product, and the money making opportunity. In my post above I stated that I would post my findings here, but only Ferret seemed interested in my actually doing so. I agree that some people here probably aren't as interested as they say in the details, and instead prefer to "criticize from the sidelines".

When it comes to a "pyramid" don't all companies have some sort of one? And anybody at the top in any company will make more money than those at the bottom. That is a readily understood concept. As long as everybody that signs up understands that, then what exactly IS the problem? They are either in it for the possibility of making money, or for the community and product.

Either way, why does everybody here that is so against it, care so much? I'm signing up and I'm aware of the risk and what I'm doing. I think the majority of others signing up are too.

I do not understand why people continue to compare a money making pryamid with the normal business model. They simply do not compare.

The problem with Kanosis is that they give either directly, or indirectly through their members, the idea that everyone can make money with this if they work at it.

However, this is simply not true. Regardless of their efforts of recruiting new members there will come a time when it is mathmatically not possible to find someone to fill your downline.

Since the only way you can make money with Kanosis is through the recruitment of others in your downline, there will be people that have a zero chance of seeing a return on their investment.

Now if they would simply take out the mention of making money,or state publically that most people will not make money simply using the service I would not have a problem with them. I wouldn't use their product, since I already have a work VPN network to do almost everything that COIL can do, but I wouldn't have a problem with them selling it.

For those that accuse some here of "standing on the sidelines" remember that primary problem, most of us have, is with the marketing of Kanosis.

[mpatient24]

In the basic sense I think the normal business model and the MLM does compare. The people at the top make more money than the people at the bottom in both scenarios. That is a readily understood concept.

So they chose to use an MLM for their marketing. So What? So did Mary Kay, Creative Memories, Quixtar, and Herbalife. Whether you like those products or not, the concept has worked for them, and are still successful today.

Yes we understand that the people at the bottom will not make money; That mathematically we would eventually run out of people. It was not introduced to me as a get rich quick scheme. Just as an opportunity for a product, and I might make some money in the process.

[concerned]

In the basic sense I think the normal business model and the MLM does compare. The people at the top make more money than the people at the bottom in both scenarios. That is a readily understood concept.


How can you base it just on money? Don't you know what it takes to be top management? Would you like to be a CEO? They usually put in about 80-100 hours of work per week. They are always on travel. They never see their families, and they have a lot of knowledge and education behind them. Compare that to the assembly worker who started working out of high school, clocks in at 8:00 and is usually beating everyone to punch out at 5:00. They work 40 hours per week. They play in softball leagues, and see their families every night. They don't put in as much effort into the company as the CEO does. Most of the time you hear people complain about CEOs making more money than the factory workers, and that they can sit in offices every day. What they don't hear from the CEOs and top management is that they never see their families, and work non-stop. And you never hear them complain, because they don't have the time to spend complaining. I guarantee you this. If you ask most of the workers at the bottom if they wanted to make much more money but would never see their families, most would not take the money.

Now that I have said that, I have just one more comment about this. Did the CEO become the CEO because he was the first one in the door? No. He became CEO because of hard work and cause he was qualified. In the pyramid scheme, the person at the top is not any more qualified than the one at the bottom. The only difference is when they walked in the door. So please explain to me how those 2 situations are the same?

So they chose to use an MLM for their marketing. So What? So did Mary Kay, Creative Memories, Quixtar, and Herbalife. Whether you like those products or not, the concept has worked for them, and are still successful today.

Ok. Good point. But those companies had something to sell that didn't require you to sell to others. The customers could walk away with something of value without the extra expense. In REAL MLMs you can charge a fee for the opportunity to sell IF YOU WANT TO SELL. The difference with Kanosis, is you don't have the opportunity to buy COIL and walk away. You are required to pay the fee to become a sales person even if you don't want to. If they would just sell me a license of COIL, with no questions asked, then maybe they would be a good MLM. I don't see that happening.

Yes we understand that the people at the bottom will not make money; That mathematically we would eventually run out of people.

Again, with a REAL MLM, they are required to disclose the odds of not making any money. Has Kanosis done so?

[Houston]

Quote:
Not sure I agree with the being part of the problem bit, for this to happen I would have to join Kanosis then start enticing others to join under me to build a Pyramid of my own by advertising the potential of earning a fortune.

Why, you are in it for information not to promote Kanosis or to make money from others. It's a fact finding expedition.

Quote:
Please also share with us your experience of using coil and any examples of how its been usefull would be great.

As it stands today, I would have to say I have been less then impressed with the functionality of COIL. Because of this, I have slowed down my personal promotion of it. I would like to see some earlier promises come to fruition before I ramp back up. However, that being said, COIL is not the only reason why I became a member.

Over the past thirty years, it has been my experience that people who join MLM's primarily see it as an opportunity to generate some income. The intensity of their success parallels their belief in the product/s they have to offer.

[mpatient24]

I'm not sure how to do the quote separation thing. I hope I did it right. If I didn't I apologize.

How can you base it just on money? Don't you know what it takes to be top management? Would you like to be a CEO? They usually put in about 80-100 hours of work per week. They are always on travel. They never see their families, and they have a lot of knowledge and education behind them. Compare that to the assembly worker who started working out of high school, clocks in at 8:00 and is usually beating everyone to punch out at 5:00. They work 40 hours per week. They play in softball leagues, and see their families every night. They don't put in as much effort into the company as the CEO does. Most of the time you hear people complain about CEOs making more money than the factory workers, and that they can sit in offices every day. What they don't hear from the CEOs and top management is that they never see their families, and work non-stop. And you never hear them complain, because they don't have the time to spend complaining. I guarantee you this. If you ask most of the workers at the bottom if they wanted to make much more money but would never see their families, most would not take the money.

Good point. But I did say in the basic sense. Not in the long run. On the surface the person at the top makes more than the person at the bottom.

Now that I have said that, I have just one more comment about this. Did the CEO become the CEO because he was the first one in the door? No. He became CEO because of hard work and cause he was qualified. In the pyramid scheme, the person at the top is not any more qualified than the one at the bottom. The only difference is when they walked in the door. So please explain to me how those 2 situations are the same?

True... but again, I was only speaking about on the surface. Regardless of how the person on the top got there, they will generally make more money than the person at the bottom.

Ok. Good point. But those companies had something to sell that didn't require you to sell to others. The customers could walk away with something of value without the extra expense. In REAL MLMs you can charge a fee for the opportunity to sell IF YOU WANT TO SELL. The difference with Kanosis, is you don't have the opportunity to buy COIL and walk away. You are required to pay the fee to become a sales person even if you don't want to. If they would just sell me a license of COIL, with no questions asked, then maybe they would be a good MLM. I don't see that happening.

Kanosis does have something of value that you don't have to sell to others. COIL and the Kanosis community is the product. You pay your first 2 months at $22, and a $15 one time activation fee.

If you don't tell a soul, you have your product and have walked away from the opportunity. Your choice. You continue to pay $22 a month for as long as you like for the service.

I am a Creative Memories Consultant. I signed up originally because I'm addicted to scrapbooking and wanted the retail discount. I sold it to family & friends. I didn't make any money because I chose not to pursue the business angle and build a sales team. However, to remain a consultant I am REQUIRED to place at least $500 in orders every 3 months. That is a lot of money when I just want the discount and I'm not selling. My investment and risk in this has been much greater than what Kanosis is asking.

My mother is a walking endorsement for Mary Kay and I've heard their spill many times. They also have minimum ordering requirements on a monthly/quarterly basis to remain a consultant.

Again, with a REAL MLM, they are required to disclose the odds of not making any money. Has Kanosis done so?

I was never mislead, and I don't believe I've seen on their website the words "Get Rich Quick". Only that there is a business opportunity, and you can get paid by referring the service. There is no requirement that to use the service you have to sell it. As far as their disclosures, I agree that perhaps they can be a little more clear, but I don't believe they are trying to mislead anybody. After all, they told me the odds.

[Ferret]

Again, with a REAL MLM, they are required to disclose the odds of not making any money. Has Kanosis done so?
Kanosis, pyramid scam or legit MLM?
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3878

6. Legitimate MLMs should not falsely represent, expressly or by implication, the amount of earnings or income that can be, or which is likely to be, derived from participation in the MLM.

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received any commissions, bonuses or overrides;

* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;

* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;

* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.

[Ferret]

As it stands today, I would have to say I have been less then impressed with the functionality of COIL. Because of this, I have slowed down my personal promotion of it. I would like to see some earlier promises come to fruition before I ramp back up. However, that being said, COIL is not the only reason why I became a member.
Please give more details about this, the more the merrier
What didn't you like about COIL?

What did you like about it?

How is the Kanosis community too?

[Arzel]

Per Ferret's request. Here is the model at ~1,000,000 members.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5713/image0083ir.gif

[mpatient24]

I found a good article on how to distinguish a MLM from an unsustainable pyramid scheme/scam. It might be useful to help us analysis kanoais business model.

http://www.phoneplusmag.com/articles/471feat01.html Posted: 7/2004

Okay, so let's compare this to Kanosis vs. some of the other successful, and recognized MLM businesses.

MLM or Pyramid Scheme
Tips for Evaluating or Creating a Multilevel Selling Organization
By David O. Klein

...Regulatory agencies often look for two red flags that in ascertaining whether an illegal pyramid scheme exists are inventory loading.

These red flags are 1) a companys incentive program forces recruits to buy more products than they could ever sell, often at inflated prices; and, 2) a lack of retail sales, especially when sales occur only between people in the pyramid structure or to new recruits, not to consumers in the general public.

Addressing red flag #1. The incentive doesn't require that we buy more products than can be sold. Only that you participate and subscribe to the product being sold. (Ex. with a legitimate MLM company. Creative Memories requires a minimum of $500 retail purchased per quarter.)

Addressing red flag #2. Kanosis is offering the service to people in the general public. It's just using it's own customer base to do the marketing. The business opportunity is completely optional.

In contrast to an illegal pyramid scheme, a legitimate MLM has a real, marketable product or service to sell, one that is sold to the general public without requiring consumers to pay an additional fee to join the MLM program. MLMs may pay commissions to a long string of distributors, but these commissions are paid for actual retail sales, not for obtaining new recruits.

COIL is the legitimate product, and Kanosis is the service. It is sold to the public through its members that market it. The consumers don't pay an additional fee to join the MLM. It is $22/mo + the one time $15 activation fee that everybody pays regardless of whether or not they participate in the marketing and business opportunity. Their commissions are based off of the subscriptions of new customers. Again...regardless of whether or not they participate in the business opportunity.

As an initial determination, a two-prong analysis is helpful in determining whether a plan could be considered an illegal pyramid scheme. First, you should conduct a theoretical analysis of the compensation plan to determine whether the subject plan, as written, appears to compensate merely for recruitment, or instead, for the retail sale of goods or services to end consumers. If the program compensates participants solely for sales to retail consumers, it will pass the first prong of the test.

We've already established this. Everybody that signs up has purchased the product/service, and that is what the commission is paid off of.


The second prong involves an operational analysis to determine what type of activity the plan induces;

specifically, what do distributors spend their time doing? This prong of the analysis is often more difficult to decide conclusively. Several different factors may contribute to the determination, but the basic test is, what does the plan emphasize? If the plan emphasizes recruitment, even though distributors make retail sales, it may be found to be an illegal pyramid scheme. Incorporating the safeguards set forth in the following two paragraphs will help to ensure that your program passes the second prong of this analysis.

In addition to distinguishing a legitimate MLM program from that of an illegal pyramid scheme, the FTCs Amway case also sets forth several safeguards that should be incorporated when endeavoring to fashion legitimate MLMs:

1. There should be no entry or headhunting fees;
2. There should be no large inventory purchase requirements;
3. Each distributor should be required to sell, at wholesale or retail, at least 70 percent of its purchased inventory each month;
4. Each sponsoring distributor should be required to make at least one retail sale to each of 10 different customers each month;
5. Distributors should be required to buy back any unused and marketable products from their recruits upon request. Legitimate MLMs should have a 60-day, 100 percent money-back guarantee. After 60 days, the MLM should accept returned inventory (unless perishable or seasonal) with a 10 percent restocking fee. This helps to mitigate against a charge of inventory loading;
6. Legitimate MLMs should not falsely represent, expressly or by implication, the amount of earnings or income that can be, or which is likely to be, derived from participation in the MLM.

1) No entry or headhunting fees
2) No inventory purchases required at all. Only your own participation in using the product you are marketing.
3) There is no inventory. It's purchased by subscription.
4) No requirements because participation as a distributor is optional, but it is always different customers for those that do participate.
5) Can quit at any time. And just for the record.. Creative Memories and Mary Kay do not have 60 day 100 percent money back guarantees.
6) Nobody has falsely represented or expressed to me the possibilities of income and I am well aware of the possibility of earning nothing and just paying for the product. However, I will concede the their written advertisements for the business opportunity could be better expressed.

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received any commissions, bonuses or overrides;
* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;
* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;
* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.

I haven't seen this, but as soon as I complete my membership with them I will check to see if they are providing this information to members, and if they are not, I will certainly request it using the information above.

[Ferret]

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received any commissions, bonuses or overrides;

* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;

* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;

* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I haven't seen this, but as soon as I complete my membership with them I will check to see if they are providing this information to members, and if they are not, I will certainly request it using the information above.

They should provide this info BEFORE you join

It should be presented in a very obvious place on the Kanosis web site

If they did MW would not have a problem with their business model

It is a little late to get it AFTER you become a Kanosian

[mpatient24]

They should provide this info BEFORE you join

It should be presented in a very obvious place on the Kanosis web site

If they did MW would not have a problem with their business model

It is a little late to get it AFTER you become a Kanosian

I am a skeptic willing to give them a chance. I also enjoy playing devil's advocate. :) I actually agree with you on this, as Creative Memories includes that information in every one of our newsletters. However, we're only able to access that information once we've become members. Not before, unless we ask someone in our upline for that information. I think I will call Jim Southworth about this issue and hear his response.

[Ferret]

I am a skeptic willing to give them a chance. I also enjoy playing devil's advocate. :) I actually agree with you on this, as Creative Memories includes that information in every one of our newsletters. However, we're only able to access that information once we've become members. Not before, unless we ask someone in our upline for that information. I think I will call Jim Southworth about this issue and hear his response.
No need to post this in 2 threads....
lets keep it here as this is the only thread JimS reads

Please ask him how many members now?
Are they over the 5000 magic number?
I am sure they are

What are ALL the Uniclear fees?
I still can't believe so many people signed up without knowing this

The web site is still not updated......when?
etc

[mpatient24]

No need to post this in 2 threads....
lets keep it here as this is the only thread JimS reads

Please ask him how many members now?
Are they over the 5000 magic number?
I am sure they are

What are ALL the Uniclear fees?
I still can't believe so many people signed up without knowing this

The web site is still not updated......when?
etc

The Uniclear fees are posted on the Uniclear website. I researched that first.

Their website has been updated since I last saw it last week. They're have been a few changes.

I don't know how many members. I think the mentioned it on yesterday's conference call though. I will email my friend that is already a part of it and see if he knows.

[Arzel]

Addressing red flag #2. Kanosis is offering the service to people in the general public. It's just using it's own customer base to do the marketing. The business opportunity is completely optional.



COIL is the legitimate product, and Kanosis is the service. It is sold to the public through its members that market it. The consumers don't pay an additional fee to join the MLM. It is $22/mo + the one time $15 activation fee that everybody pays regardless of whether or not they participate in the marketing and business opportunity. Their commissions are based off of the subscriptions of new customers. Again...regardless of whether or not they participate in the business opportunity.


We've already established this. Everybody that signs up has purchased the product/service, and that is what the commission is paid off of.



I am glad you have brought this up as I have been meaning to discuss this for the past few days.

While it is true that it has been mentioned that you can pay $15 for simply joining Kanosis, it is not possible to actually do so at this time. At the join screen you are forced to purchase 2 months worth of COIL. It also appears that the only way to access the Kanosis environment is through COIL. Therefore it is a requirement to purchase COIL to be a member.

Also it is not possible to actually purchase just the COIL software without being a member. Which makes me ask, why can't I pay $15 to be a member of Kanosis and then pay $6.60 a month to use COIL if I don't want to either market it or be a member? Since this is not possible at this time one must conclude that in order to use the software you must be a member of the MLM.

Thus Red Flag #2 applies "2) a lack of retail sales, especially when sales occur only between people in the pyramid structure or to new recruits, not to consumers in the general public. "

There really is no arguing this fact at this time.

Additionally I would like to put forth the following thought.

It can be assumed that the Kanosis has employees actively working for them. Certainly the owner is an employee, and from all evidence Jim is an employee, he is certainly acting as an agent for Kanosis.

Yet, by Jim's own admission he is part of the Matrix, and one can only conclude that the owner is at the top of the Matrix. This makes me ask, do these employees pay to be members of Kanosis and to use the software? Based of Jim's description of Kanosis it appears that being a member is integral to actually working the company. Logically if the software is as superior as they make it seem they would definately use the software. But who are they paying for it's use?

At my job I certainly don't pay my employer for the software I need to do my job for him. If Kanosis is just like other businesses that same logic would apply. And if this is the case then why are they part of the Matrix? If they are not paying for it's use as the average outside member would, then they should be viewed as outside the matrix and be paid a salary or other compensation aside from the marketing of their product, but not be paid from commision through the marketing of Kanosis.

By Jim's own admission, they return or will return enough of an ROI to make Kanosis profitable, thus there should be no need for them to be part of the matrix. But since they are, the matrix's only purpose is to serve those at the top.

[Ferret]

The Uniclear fees are posted on the Uniclear website. I researched that first.

Their website has been updated since I last saw it last week. They're have been a few changes.
I don't care what the Uniclear site says......
I want to see the fee structure on the Kanosis site
They could change it

Very unprofessional and haphazard considering they are the next Google/eBay/Skype

Jim said there would be major changes on the Kanosis site

Same pathetic FAQ
No more info on COIL
No contact info for the principals and staff
No company locations
I could go on........

Compare Kanosis with the http://www.webex.com site ???

[Arzel]

Compare Kanosis with the http://www.webex.com site ???

After all this discussion, and analysis I think I might invest in WebEX. :)

[Ferret]

Additionally I would like to put forth the following thought.

It can be assumed that the Kanosis has employees actively working for them. Certainly the owner is an employee, and from all evidence Jim is an employee, he is certainly acting as an agent for Kanosis.

Yet, by Jim's own admission he is part of the Matrix, and one can only conclude that the owner is at the top of the Matrix. This makes me ask, do these employees pay to be members of Kanosis and to use the software? Based of Jim's description of Kanosis it appears that being a member is integral to actually working the company. Logically if the software is as superior as they make it seem they would definately use the software. But who are they paying for it's use?

At my job I certainly don't pay my employer for the software I need to do my job for him. If Kanosis is just like other businesses that same logic would apply. And if this is the case then why are they part of the Matrix? If they are not paying for it's use as the average outside member would, then they should be viewed as outside the matrix and be paid a salary or other compensation aside from the marketing of their product, but not be paid from commision through the marketing of Kanosis.

By Jim's own admission, they return or will return enough of an ROI to make Kanosis profitable, thus there should be no need for them to be part of the matrix. But since they are, the matrix's only purpose is to serve those at the top
Excellent points.....

Kanosis should disclose to all prospective Kanosians what positions the main founders, employees, family members, friends etc hold in the top of the matrix

I am assuming they hold ALL the top choice spots that will earn most of the commissions
(See Arzels million member chart above for the income distribution)

[mpatient24]

I am glad you have brought this up as I have been meaning to discuss this for the past few days.

While it is true that it has been mentioned that you can pay $15 for simply joining Kanosis, it is not possible to actually do so at this time. At the join screen you are forced to purchase 2 months worth of COIL. It also appears that the only way to access the Kanosis environment is through COIL. Therefore it is a requirement to purchase COIL to be a member.

Also it is not possible to actually purchase just the COIL software without being a member. Which makes me ask, why can't I pay $15 to be a member of Kanosis and then pay $6.60 a month to use COIL if I don't want to either market it or be a member? Since this is not possible at this time one must conclude that in order to use the software you must be a member of the MLM.

Thus Red Flag #2 applies "2) a lack of retail sales, especially when sales occur only between people in the pyramid structure or to new recruits, not to consumers in the general public. "

There really is no arguing this fact at this time.

Ahh... but on the contrary. I do disagree, and indeed can argue the fact. Why would you think that you could pay $6.60 a month for a software and service that others are paying $22/mo. for. We aren't paying the $22/mo to be a part of the matrix. We are paying it for the use of the software, and access to the community. And right now Kanosis is not offering it separately, though supposedly that will change soon, and I admit needs to be better displayed on their website just as JimS has said. You said yourself that access to Kanosis is through COIL. You do not have to be a member of the MLM to subscribe to Kanosis & COIL. However, if you choose to tell people about it, and to market the product, the company has agreed that they will pay a commission. There is absolutely no requirement to be a part of the MLM if you join Kanosis and use COIL for the $22/mo.

Additionally I would like to put forth the following thought.

It can be assumed that the Kanosis has employees actively working for them. Certainly the owner is an employee, and from all evidence Jim is an employee, he is certainly acting as an agent for Kanosis.

Yet, by Jim's own admission he is part of the Matrix, and one can only conclude that the owner is at the top of the Matrix. This makes me ask, do these employees pay to be members of Kanosis and to use the software? Based of Jim's description of Kanosis it appears that being a member is integral to actually working the company. Logically if the software is as superior as they make it seem they would definately use the software. But who are they paying for it's use?

Okay. First of all Jim has not said that he is part of the matrix, and in fact stated on this board that he has not yet secured his place in the matrix, and does intend to sometime in the near future. I would assume that he is being paid for his consultant services, but regardless of whether or not he is... it isn't any of our business. I know for fact after speaking with him the entire company is communicating via COIL. Now whether or not they pay for the service, I don't know, but does it matter? Most employees of a company get an employee discount on services, and products. Perhaps they get it free or at a discount. Would you go into a store and ask the manager what his employee discount or benefits are? Probably not, as it's none of or business. Again, that doesn't really play into the business aspect of the Kanosis business model. Members are not employees. They are simply paid a commission if they help to subscribe consumers of the general public to the product/service.

As far as who they are paying for it's use.. Hmmm... most people know the concept that you have to pay money to make money. They probably put the money back into the operating costs of the business. I would assume that's what most business owners would do. Again, is that really something that is essential to know?

At my job I certainly don't pay my employer for the software I need to do my job for him. If Kanosis is just like other businesses that same logic would apply. And if this is the case then why are they part of the Matrix? If they are not paying for it's use as the average outside member would, then they should be viewed as outside the matrix and be paid a salary or other compensation aside from the marketing of their product, but not be paid from commision through the marketing of Kanosis.

By Jim's own admission, they return or will return enough of an ROI to make Kanosis profitable, thus there should be no need for them to be part of the matrix. But since they are, the matrix's only purpose is to serve those at the top.

First of all, we aren't privy to the upper level compensation plans of Creative Memories, Mary kay, Quixtar, or Herbalife. Not to exclude any of the other successful MLM's out there, or other companies for that matter. Why should we be privy to that of the Kanosis group? So they allow them to be a part of the matrix. So what? If JimS hasn't joined the Matrix yet, but intends to do so that would put me above him in the Matrix. That says something. lol Maybe I'll call him up and ask him to sign up under me as a show of good faith. :evil:

[Ferret]

Jim is a member already and has said so in a previous post
I have verified this ;)
He said he is under the person that introduced? him to Kanosis
He said he wasn't sure what level he was on but he is definitely on one of the top few levels
He said he hadn't signed up anyone under him in that post

Get your facts straight
If you would search back through his posts you will find where he said this

[mpatient24]

I'm not sure but it will be at least below level 3 or so, but it doesn't matter, my 14 levels start right there.....

easy answer, just as I previously stated, I have NOT started yet, by next week I'll have a few below me

I do realize that entering into this more personal discussion can be as much a trap as anything. The classic leading questions and then the immediate following of an expected attack on my own lack of participation OR the attack on my my active participation..... BUT, I have been completely straight with everybody here as I always am..... to be clear, I believe in the company and its service products. I also believe that our marketing approach IS different than that which has been done by others using this MLM model for web based businesses. I certainly believe it will be successful beyond all of our expectations, especially youse guys..... but as I have been with you since the beginning these are honest answers to best of my first hand knowledge or the responses from other members of the executive team who are themselves honest and well meaning also and I trust.

I have done research and in the post where he discussed his friend's level, you will see that he emphasized that he had NOT yet joined. If he is now part of the Matrix since this post, then he is still below the friend that introduced me and I won't be much below him. I'm okay with that.

[Ferret]

I have done research and in the post where he discussed his friend's level, you will see that he emphasized that he had NOT yet joined. If he is now part of the Matrix since this post, then he is still below the friend that introduced me and I won't be much below him. I'm okay with that.
He was a member way before that post...

I checked that he was ;)
In fact I have a PM here that will prove when that was
It wasn't exactly rocket science to see if he was a member

When he said he hadn't started he meant he hadn't signed up anyone under his position yet

[mpatient24]

He was a member way before that post...

I checked that he was ;)
In fact I have a PM here that will prove when that was
It wasn't exactly rocket science to see if he was a member

When he said he hadn't started he meant he hadn't signed up anyone under his position yet

Ah.. I see. Well, he couldn't receive any commission without at least two sales under him. I wonder how that worked. But you can't say I didn't read through the posts and do my research if you have that information from a PM. :p How did you check if you aren't a member?

[mpatient24]

Ah.. I see. Well, he couldn't receive any commission without at least two sales under him. I wonder how that worked. But you can't say I didn't read through the posts and do my research if you have that information from a PM. :p How did you check if you aren't a member?

:crazy: BTW Was that the only thing you could come up with to disagree with me about in my post? I must be doing a pretty good job of devil's advocate then. :D Anybody enjoying my rebuttals? I am. ;)

[Arzel]

Ahh... but on the contrary. I do disagree, and indeed can argue the fact. Why would you think that you could pay $6.60 a month for a software and service that others are paying $22/mo. for. We aren't paying the $22/mo to be a part of the matrix. We are paying it for the use of the software, and access to the community. And right now Kanosis is not offering it separately, though supposedly that will change soon, and I admit needs to be better displayed on their website just as JimS has said. You said yourself that access to Kanosis is through COIL. You do not have to be a member of the MLM to subscribe to Kanosis & COIL. However, if you choose to tell people about it, and to market the product, the company has agreed that they will pay a commission. There is absolutely no requirement to be a part of the MLM if you join Kanosis and use COIL for the $22/mo.


$6.60: The advertised price is $22 a month, but 70% of that goes back into commisions, so from the point of view of Kanosis they recieve $6.60 per month per member for COIL, ergo I should be able to just go to their site and buy the service directly from them for that amount. From an accounting point of view of Kanosis, it makes little difference if I pay a bunch of other people or just pay them.

But you can't just go to their site and sign up, you have to have a reference, but why? What difference does it make to them? Kanosis claims to use the Matrix as part of their marketing, but even in that case I should be able to sign up to use COIL without being part of the MLM at a discounted rate of no more than $10 per month. But you can't, you cannot use COIL without being a member of the Matrix. By using any service worth at least $22 a month you are by definition a meber of the matrix MLM. Even if you don't recruit anyone else, you are still a member by definition since you are part of someone elses downline.


Okay. First of all Jim has not said that he is part of the matrix, and in fact stated on this board that he has not yet secured his place in the matrix, and does intend to sometime in the near future. I would assume that he is being paid for his consultant services, but regardless of whether or not he is... it isn't any of our business. I know for fact after speaking with him the entire company is communicating via COIL. Now whether or not they pay for the service, I don't know, but does it matter? Most employees of a company get an employee discount on services, and products. Perhaps they get it free or at a discount. Would you go into a store and ask the manager what his employee discount or benefits are? Probably not, as it's none of or business. Again, that doesn't really play into the business aspect of the Kanosis business model. Members are not employees. They are simply paid a commission if they help to subscribe consumers of the general public to the product/service.

As Ferret mentioned, Jim is in the matrix, and has stated so.

You are missing my point about their being in the matrix. Using the Kanosis service and COIL would be part of being an employee of Kanosis. This quite different than selling a service that would not be directly part of their job. I am not reffering to members in this situation only the employees of Kanosis. Kanosis has to have some employees running the infrastructure. WebEX has 1,800 employees and only 22,000 users of its software (which has many of the functions of COIL). Kanosis has to at least have few dozen employees just to maintain their servers (of which there will be I believe 5 in key locations around the world).

As far as employee discounts and benefits, you can go into just about any company and find out that information, all you have to do is ask what kind of benefits do you get as an employee. I did it all the time when looking for jobs while going to college.



As far as who they are paying for it's use.. Hmmm... most people know the concept that you have to pay money to make money. They probably put the money back into the operating costs of the business. I would assume that's what most business owners would do. Again, is that really something that is essential to know?


You are missing my point. If they are using it as part of their business why would they have to pay themselves back to use the service and software just to do their job? It doesn't make much sense from a business standpoint.


First of all, we aren't privy to the upper level compensation plans of Creative Memories, Mary kay, Quixtar, or Herbalife. Not to exclude any of the other successful MLM's out there, or other companies for that matter. Why should we be privy to that of the Kanosis group? So they allow them to be a part of the matrix. So what? If JimS hasn't joined the Matrix yet, but intends to do so that would put me above him in the Matrix. That says something. lol Maybe I'll call him up and ask him to sign up under me as a show of good faith. :evil:

If I am to understand the rules governing MLM's the number of people at each level must be disclosed.

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received any commissions, bonuses or overrides;

* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;

* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;

* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.

[Arzel]

Here is the post where Jim states he is a member of the Matrix.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=34821&postcount=180

Okay, now maybe we are getting somewhere..... you are totally wrong.... Under our commission plan for selling Kanosis services, when I have 14 people below me I probably have 3 full levels PERIOD, when I have just over that number I am at break-even and making a profit at 3.5 levels under me, no matter where my physical level starts...... where the heck did you come up with 262,000??? I don't have to have anything except what is right below me filled in to make money from selling the software and Kanosis services to run that software. This is why some people who are making over $4k a month already are not even at the top level so It has actually been shown to me. It is absolutely possible and we already have seen it often where someone further down the sales tree is making more than at least the person who referred him, one level up......


The setup for that quote was me stating that you would require 262,000 people to fill the top 3 levels, which was a miss-understanding of mine about what Jim was saying.

[mpatient24]

Here is the post where Jim states he is a member of the Matrix.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=34821&postcount=180



The setup for that quote was me stating that you would require 262,000 people to fill the top 3 levels, which was a miss-understanding of mine about what Jim was saying.

I am still working on my reply to Arzel, but since this one will only take a minute, I will say that... his statement doesn't confirm actually that he is a member. It just shows how it would work IF he was. He used himself as the example, but did not confirm his own membership.

I'm not arguing that he is NOT a member, and in fact do believe you that he is, but.... Only making the point that none of the public posts I have seen so far, including the one you just posted, confirm without a doubt that he is indeed a member. In the context that I've read it, he has stated that he hasn't gotten started, and used himself as an example. That is all you have proven to me so far. ;)

[Arzel]

I am still working on my reply to Arzel, but since this one will only take a minute, I will say that... his statement doesn't confirm actually that he is a member. It just shows how it would work IF he was. He used himself as the example, but did not confirm his own membership.

I'm not arguing that he is NOT a member, and in fact do believe you that he is, but.... Only making the point that none of the public posts I have seen so far, including the one you just posted, confirm without a doubt that he is indeed a member. In the context that I've read it, he has stated that he hasn't gotten started, and used himself as an example. That is all you have proven to me so far. ;)

Do you have a case of selective reading or something?

As a side note, here is an interesting read regarding MLM's

http://www.mlm-thetruth.com/startpyramid.htm

The whole site has a ton of good information. And for the YMMSS crowd it looks like Kim followed this almost to a "T"

[mpatient24]

$6.60: The advertised price is $22 a month, but 70% of that goes back into commisions, so from the point of view of Kanosis they recieve $6.60 per month per member for COIL, ergo I should be able to just go to their site and buy the service directly from them for that amount. From an accounting point of view of Kanosis, it makes little difference if I pay a bunch of other people or just pay them.

But you can't just go to their site and sign up, you have to have a reference, but why? What difference does it make to them? Kanosis claims to use the Matrix as part of their marketing, but even in that case I should be able to sign up to use COIL without being part of the MLM at a discounted rate of no more than $10 per month. But you can't, you cannot use COIL without being a member of the Matrix. By using any service worth at least $22 a month you are by definition a meber of the matrix MLM. Even if you don't recruit anyone else, you are still a member by definition since you are part of someone elses downline.

The price for the product/service is $22/mo. Period. You absolutely should not get a discount on that just because you don't want to participate in the MLM. Working for Creative Memories, I sell their products. The consumer pays the retail price on those products they purchase from me, and then I am paid a commission. They don't get a discount because they don't want to join and become a consultant. Why should this be any different? Even if you do fill a spot in the matrix by signing up and not participating in the MLM, you aren't contributing to the downline. Therefore you are just another member paying $22/mo for the service just like everyone else.

As far as having to have a reference, it is the same with Creative Memories, Herbalife, Mary Kay, and Quixtar. Oh wait... I just remembered another successful MLM. Advocare. It is the same for them too. It's a basic fact of the MLM marketing structure. They keep it fair for those that want to participate in the matrix, by forcing a new member to use a reference, so that no new member automatically gets put in somebody's matrix that hasn't done something to deserve the commission. However if you don't have a reference and want to join, it isn't hard to locate someone in your area to choose as your upline.

As Ferret mentioned, Jim is in the matrix, and has stated so.

You are missing my point about their being in the matrix. Using the Kanosis service and COIL would be part of being an employee of Kanosis. This quite different than selling a service that would not be directly part of their job. I am not reffering to members in this situation only the employees of Kanosis. Kanosis has to have some employees running the infrastructure. WebEX has 1,800 employees and only 22,000 users of its software (which has many of the functions of COIL). Kanosis has to at least have few dozen employees just to maintain their servers (of which there will be I believe 5 in key locations around the world).

As far as employee discounts and benefits, you can go into just about any company and find out that information, all you have to do is ask what kind of benefits do you get as an employee. I did it all the time when looking for jobs while going to college.

Actually I'm not missing the point. This is irrelevant to those that want to join, and again how the employees get paid isn't any of our business. They are the ones that have worked to make the company work. It is their 80-100 hours a week that will make the company ultimately succeed.

You are missing my point. If they are using it as part of their business why would they have to pay themselves back to use the service and software just to do their job? It doesn't make much sense from a business standpoint.

Hmmm... that is the 2nd time in this post that you've said I'm missing your point. I'm not missing the point. Again, that is irrelevant information to those that want to join. But again... spending money to make money.

If I am to understand the rules governing MLM's the number of people at each level must be disclosed.

And I have actually brought this up to JimS and he is checking into this. Creative Memories does disclose this information to it's members/consultants, but I've never seen them disclose it to the public. What's to say they aren't disclosing it to their members? In any case when I sign up I'll let you know if it is.

[mpatient24]

FYI - the following is Jim's response to me regarding the question of posting the member #'s. I am sure it will be readily available to all members at least from within our web site at the very least.... I don't know how we can supply the "time to level" calculations at this time since we haven't formally launched and there is a lot of we have just calculated for the first time in the last month.....

Good Point, Jim. And VERY plausible answer. Though Creative Memories and all the other MLM's I've referred to do supply this information, they have been in business for years, and had plenty of information to calculate. They are brand new. The others supply this information quarterly and sometimes annually. Not daily, weekly, or even monthly. They haven't had the time to provide those numbers, and like he said. They haven't even launched the product yet. How about having some reasonable expectations.

[Webwatch]

Its great to see this discussion continuing and some great points being put across by both sides.
Mpatient its good to see how you perceive the Kanosis system from what I presume is a neutral or someone who has just joined point of view.

My opinion is still the same that as there is no end product for the end user to buy and walk away. I still don't consider this an MLM and still more of a pyramid scheme. If coil is classed as the end product then it is being sold at a 5% commision ($1.10) for the Kanosis referer, but as the end user purchases it and then becomes part of the matrix still the pyramid scheme opinon is valid.
As things stand at the moment $59(($15+$44) 2 months Coil Subscription) there is no way to just pay $15 to join the Kanosis community and not become part of the matrix. Though why anyone would want to pay $15 a year just to be part of a Community is strange especially as its not clear what you would get for that $15 apart from the opportunity to participate if you spend another $22 per month.

I must however commend Kanosis and its founders (especially Jim) for how Kanosis has been marketed, you only need to see how many views this thread has had to see the interest Kanosis has received and from a marketers point of view I must conceed this is phenominal.

There is however a way out for Kanosis to end this argument and to become classed as an MLM. All they need do is introduce a physical product i.e. A USB Pen Drive.
This product could then be bought by Kanosis members and sold to new recruits who could buy it even if they didn't want to join the Kanosis community. This opens up another area of marketing where logos could be placed on the pen drives or even the coil software could be pre-installed although the end user could delete it if they didnt want to join Kanosis.
Selling this product would also give the referer a commision value so they wouldn't need to buy coil every month to continue in the matrix and receive commisions from those below them in their downline.

Just a thought-Comments please.

[ycchen]

I agree with Webwatch. To qualify as a legitimate MLM, kanosis must pass the 70% test, i.e. 70% of the income should be generated from selling product to non-members. See the following thread for more detail about the test.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=35479#post35479

.......
There is however a way out for Kanosis to end this argument and to become classed as an MLM. All they need do is introduce a physical product i.e. A USB Pen Drive.
This product could then be bought by Kanosis members and sold to new recruits who could buy it even if they didn't want to join the Kanosis community. This opens up another area of marketing where logos could be placed on the pen drives or even the coil software could be pre-installed although the end user could delete it if they didnt want to join Kanosis.

Selling this product would also give the referer a commision value so they wouldn't need to buy coil every month to continue in the matrix and receive commisions from those below them in their downline.

Just a thought-Comments please.

[sisco50]

:crazy: BTW Was that the only thing you could come up with to disagree with me about in my post? I must be doing a pretty good job of devil's advocate then. :D Anybody enjoying my rebuttals? I am. ;)

Sure. Makes for interesting reading. :)

I am not a MLM type of person and wouldn't touch one with a 40 foot pole, but no reason why others can't if they so desire. Knock yourself out. :)

[Arzel]

The price for the product/service is $22/mo. Period. You absolutely should not get a discount on that just because you don't want to participate in the MLM. Working for Creative Memories, I sell their products. The consumer pays the retail price on those products they purchase from me, and then I am paid a commission. They don't get a discount because they don't want to join and become a consultant. Why should this be any different? Even if you do fill a spot in the matrix by signing up and not participating in the MLM, you aren't contributing to the downline. Therefore you are just another member paying $22/mo for the service just like everyone else.

You have been referencing CM and some other MLM's quite a bit. There is a diffrence with their products. When you become a IC for them you actively beging to sell their products, this is not the same with Kanosis. By Jim's own admission, the purpose of their MLM is for expanding the use of their service quickly.

Kanosis buys the exclusive rights and license to the software exactly as stated.... Kanosis is a stand alone corporation selling a service using a MLM business model....


Thus they are not in essense asking members to sell anything per say.


As far as having to have a reference, it is the same with Creative Memories, Herbalife, Mary Kay, and Quixtar. Oh wait... I just remembered another successful MLM. Advocare. It is the same for them too. It's a basic fact of the MLM marketing structure. They keep it fair for those that want to participate in the matrix, by forcing a new member to use a reference, so that no new member automatically gets put in somebody's matrix that hasn't done something to deserve the commission. However if you don't have a reference and want to join, it isn't hard to locate someone in your area to choose as your upline.



Actually I'm not missing the point. This is irrelevant to those that want to join, and again how the employees get paid isn't any of our business. They are the ones that have worked to make the company work. It is their 80-100 hours a week that will make the company ultimately succeed.



Hmmm... that is the 2nd time in this post that you've said I'm missing your point. I'm not missing the point. Again, that is irrelevant information to those that want to join. But again... spending money to make money.

And I have actually brought this up to JimS and he is checking into this. Creative Memories does disclose this information to it's members/consultants, but I've never seen them disclose it to the public. What's to say they aren't disclosing it to their members? In any case when I sign up I'll let you know if it is.

Obviously you are missing my point, or you simply just don't want to talk about it because it makes you ask more questions about how MLM's in general are designed.

[Arzel]

FYI - the following is Jim's response to me regarding the question of posting the member #'s.

Originally Posted by JimSouthworth
I am sure it will be readily available to all members at least from within our web site at the very least.... I don't know how we can supply the "time to level" calculations at this time since we haven't formally launched and there is a lot of we have just calculated for the first time in the last month.....

Good Point, Jim. And VERY plausible answer. Though Creative Memories and all the other MLM's I've referred to do supply this information, they have been in business for years, and had plenty of information to calculate. They are brand new. The others supply this information quarterly and sometimes annually. Not daily, weekly, or even monthly. They haven't had the time to provide those numbers, and like he said. They haven't even launched the product yet. How about having some reasonable expectations.

I only asked for the number of people in levels 5, 10, 15, and the total number of users. Anyone with his acess level to information should easily be able to provide that information. The real answer is that he simply just doesn't want to provide that information.

[Looking]

Hi all,

Has anyone who downloaded the Coil sofware recently experienced problems with an invalid digital signiture poping up when launching Coil?
What is the legal ramification of ignoring the digtal signiture and proceding regardless?


What is the situation regards earlier posts i lodged asking for a full explanation of technical and security issues relating to a normal portal verses Coil-OS portal. Im still waiting for Jims definitive answers.

What is the true nature and identity of Steve Whitington. Is it possible he did what he states he did i.e. took Herbelife from 1millian to 77millian turn over in just 14 months but has since changed his name?
Perhaps he is just a modest Guy !!!!!

Could I buy office Live and simply throw in a host of aplications and compete directly with Kanosis via direct sales of USB storage pens containing a stored copy of Office Live ?

Who with a sane mind wants to throw all there eggs into Coils basket?

Why is it as a customer I have as yet no reasurances and can not as a result try Coil out and feel safe to do so without believing I am potentialy compromising my security?

Why has it taken so long for JIM to answer adaquately & concisely customers basic concerns?

Why is it that the only place to get possible answers is through asking Jim questions directly on this forum?
And waiting and waiting and waiting................... :bow: :head: :applause: :rant: :head:

Why is the money making aspect the only subject that is vigorously presented by sponsors?
Probably because they are less directly informed or at least are as reliant apon receiving product info from this forum as all other readers currently are?

When is the new Kanosis website which is meant to address all those issues getting Launched?

Jim do you trust me to sell this product to large companies or do I need extra special trainning to ensure I am not just going to annoy these Guys and blow Kanosis credability.

Jim just answer those basics please. :o :yes:

[mpatient24]

Its great to see this discussion continuing and some great points being put across by both sides.
Mpatient its good to see how you perceive the Kanosis system from what I presume is a neutral or someone who has just joined point of view.

Thank you. And it is a neutral standpoint. As I said, I am a skeptic that has not joined.. YET. I do feel that Kanosis has some potential. Mainly, I enjoy playing devil's advocate, and for a max. investment of $270 for a year, I'm willing to take a chance. I will however make sure anybody I sign up when I join has facts, and is aware of the possibility of not making any money.

My opinion is still the same that as there is no end product for the end user to buy and walk away. I still don't consider this an MLM and still more of a pyramid scheme. If coil is classed as the end product then it is being sold at a 5% commision ($1.10) for the Kanosis referer, but as the end user purchases it and then becomes part of the matrix still the pyramid scheme opinon is valid.
As things stand at the moment $59(($15+$44) 2 months Coil Subscription) there is no way to just pay $15 to join the Kanosis community and not become part of the matrix. Though why anyone would want to pay $15 a year just to be part of a Community is strange especially as its not clear what you would get for that $15 apart from the opportunity to participate if you spend another $22 per month.

The $15 a year would be for a full service/feature membership the their community, much like Livejournal.com, or myspace. I think that their could be something to COIL even if it still needs some... tweaking.

I must however commend Kanosis and its founders (especially Jim) for how Kanosis has been marketed, you only need to see how many views this thread has had to see the interest Kanosis has received and from a marketers point of view I must conceed this is phenominal.

There is however a way out for Kanosis to end this argument and to become classed as an MLM. All they need do is introduce a physical product i.e. A USB Pen Drive.
This product could then be bought by Kanosis members and sold to new recruits who could buy it even if they didn't want to join the Kanosis community. This opens up another area of marketing where logos could be placed on the pen drives or even the coil software could be pre-installed although the end user could delete it if they didnt want to join Kanosis.
Selling this product would also give the referer a commision value so they wouldn't need to buy coil every month to continue in the matrix and receive commisions from those below them in their downline.

Just a thought-Comments please.

Very interesting thought. We'll have to see how the company progresses and what they come up with. However, I still think that COIL is a physical product. It's a software that you would physically use.

[mpatient24]

I agree with Webwatch. To qualify as a legitimate MLM, kanosis must pass the 70% test, i.e. 70% of the income should be generated from selling product to non-members. See the following thread for more detail about the test.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=35479#post35479

Their product is the software COIL and their service is the Kanosis community. Again, you DO NOT have to participate in the business opportunity. You CAN just purchase the service and product. So therefore since every member joining is purchasing the service/product whether they participate in the MLM rule or not, they would pass this test.

[mpatient24]

Sure. Makes for interesting reading. :)

I am not a MLM type of person and wouldn't touch one with a 40 foot pole, but no reason why others can't if they so desire. Knock yourself out. :)

Thank you. Everyone has their personal opinion. I'm open minded but in no way naive or gullible. I've seen too many MLM's succeed not to approach and research with an open mind. (i.e. Creative Memories, AdvoCare, Mary Kay, Quixtar, Amway, Herballife, etc...) However, I'm also well aware of the schemes, and dishonest businesses out there to make a quick buck that don't care about the people involved.

[mpatient24]

You have been referencing CM and some other MLM's quite a bit. There is a diffrence with their products. When you become a IC for them you actively beging to sell their products, this is not the same with Kanosis. By Jim's own admission, the purpose of their MLM is for expanding the use of their service quickly.
What you keep forgetting is that their service IS their product along with COIL.


Thus they are not in essense asking members to sell anything per say. Again, members are SELLING the service of Kanosis, and the product of COIL. They are just also introducing the business aspect to potential customers.


Obviously you are missing my point, or you simply just don't want to talk about it because it makes you ask more questions about how MLM's in general are designed. Once again, not missing the point, OR avoiding the subject. I sent an email to my friend that introduced Kanosis to me regarding membership info. This was his response. "A little over 5500 have signed up since November...3917 Since January 1. If you'll hurry up and sign up, you'll be able to see this for yourself. There's a membership counter on your personal home page and it keeps a Real Time running total of the company's growth as well as your Commission Earnings."

:)

[mpatient24]

I only asked for the number of people in levels 5, 10, 15, and the total number of users. Anyone with his acess level to information should easily be able to provide that information. The real answer is that he simply just doesn't want to provide that information.

As far as the number of people in levels 5, 10, and 15, your should be able to figure that out based on the total number of members, just based on the matrix style. I just provided the number of members in my previous post.

Jim is extremely busy and I think he put a lot of time into responding to questions. He shouldn't have to answer questions that will ultimately just wind up with an individual trying to pick apart how much he himself is getting paid when it isn't really any of their business.

[mpatient24]

Hi all,

Has anyone who downloaded the Coil sofware recently experienced problems with an invalid digital signiture poping up when launching Coil?
What is the legal ramification of ignoring the digtal signiture and proceding regardless?


What is the situation regards earlier posts i lodged asking for a full explanation of technical and security issues relating to a normal portal verses Coil-OS portal. Im still waiting for Jims definitive answers.

JimS has stated many times and given his personal contact information that he is happy to answer any questions you might have. Try calling him. He answered the phone for me, and I've spoken to him a few times I've called him.

What is the true nature and identity of Steve Whitington. Is it possible he did what he states he did i.e. took Herbelife from 1millian to 77millian turn over in just 14 months but has since changed his name?
Perhaps he is just a modest Guy !!!!! In fact, JimS has put people in touch with Steve Whittington and I'm certain that if you have legitimate concerns/questions that he would be happy to do so for you.


Could I buy office Live and simply throw in a host of aplications and compete directly with Kanosis via direct sales of USB storage pens containing a stored copy of Office Live ?

I highly doubt it.

Who with a sane mind wants to throw all there eggs into Coils basket? lol All their eggs??? Give me a break. If you decide to stick with it a full year to find out what happens, the maximum you've invested is $270.

Why is it as a customer I have as yet no reasurances and can not as a result try Coil out and feel safe to do so without believing I am potentialy compromising my security?

Why has it taken so long for JIM to answer adaquately & concisely customers basic concerns? His job is not to constantly read and respond to this site. He answered all of my basic concerns when I called him. Try it.

Why is it that the only place to get possible answers is through asking Jim questions directly on this forum? It certainly isn't. In fact if you can't find his contact info, PM him. I'm certain he will give it to you, and if he doesn't I will. It isn't difficult to get in touch with anybody at Kanosis that I've found.

And waiting and waiting and waiting................... :bow: :head: :applause: :rant: :head: It's my guess that you will continue waiting until you try a different approach.

Why is the money making aspect the only subject that is vigorously presented by sponsors?
Probably because they are less directly informed or at least are as reliant apon receiving product info from this forum as all other readers currently are? They aren't sponsors, they are members, and perhaps it is because that is the aspect of this opportunity (service/product/business opportunity) that those specific members are choosing to present. That is NOT how it was presented to me by the member that introduced me.

When is the new Kanosis website which is meant to address all those issues getting Launched? They are currently working on it. All new businesses have to make changes based on feedback.

Jim do you trust me to sell this product to large companies or do I need extra special trainning to ensure I am not just going to annoy these Guys and blow Kanosis credability.

Jim just answer those basics please. :o :yes:

Actually they've already begun distributing training materials to members. But you do have to be a member to access them for obvious reasons. But for those it's not so obvious to.. I will spell it out. If you aren't a member... you obviously won't be trying to sell the product to large companies. ;)

[Webwatch]

Hello Again.
Thanks for all your posts Mpatient. It seems this $15 a year joining fee would be an essential option for new members thinking of joining who dont want to pay the full $59 for 2 months use of coil untill they have heard some reveiws from other members.
I suspect during pre-launch this option to just pay $15 for the year will not be available mainly because it wont help attract new members who are just in it for the potential profit to build their downline.
If and when the Kanosis full launch happens this $15 option should become available otherwise sceptics like me will still consider Kanosis nothing more than a Pyramid Scheme trying to get as many $59 sign ups as they can.

[Ferret]

Thank you. Everyone has their personal opinion. I'm open minded but in no way naive or gullible. I've seen too many MLM's succeed not to approach and research with an open mind. (i.e. Creative Memories, AdvoCare, Mary Kay, Quixtar, Amway, Herballife, etc...) However, I'm also well aware of the schemes, and dishonest businesses out there to make a quick buck that don't care about the people involved.
I am not familar with the first 3 MLM's you quote but Quixtar, Amway and Herbalife have huge problems for anyone trying to make money with them for a long time
They are tapped out and only the people at the top are making money

You need to do a little research on them to see that your chances of making money are slim to none

There is even a lot of info right here on MatrixWatch.....
For example:

A highly recommended report: Work from "home"
http://www.cockeyed.com/workfromhome/workfromhome.html

Twenty-Seven Unsuccess Stories from Herbalife distributors
http://www.cockeyed.com/workfromhome/epilogue/unsuccessful/unsuccessful2005.html

Herbalife Class Action Settlement Reveals "Secret" Business, Similar to Amway/Quixtar's Exposed on NBC Dateline
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/herbalifeNWTW_settle.html

Herbalife Organization Pleads Guilty in Canada
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/news/herbalife_canada.html

An Herbalife Story -- by Jason McDowell
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Herbalife/herbalife00.html

Is this your idea of SUCCESS? lol

[Arzel]

As far as the number of people in levels 5, 10, and 15, your should be able to figure that out based on the total number of members, just based on the matrix style. I just provided the number of members in my previous post.

Jim is extremely busy and I think he put a lot of time into responding to questions. He shouldn't have to answer questions that will ultimately just wind up with an individual trying to pick apart how much he himself is getting paid when it isn't really any of their business.

I am not interested in Jim's actual number of people in his level, or any one person for that matter.

[mpatient24]

Hello Again.
Thanks for all your posts Mpatient. It seems this $15 a year joining fee would be an essential option for new members thinking of joining who dont want to pay the full $59 for 2 months use of coil untill they have heard some reveiws from other members.
I suspect during pre-launch this option to just pay $15 for the year will not be available mainly because it wont help attract new members who are just in it for the potential profit to build their downline.
If and when the Kanosis full launch happens this $15 option should become available otherwise sceptics like me will still consider Kanosis nothing more than a Pyramid Scheme trying to get as many $59 sign ups as they can.

They've already said that this will be available separately, and that the main reason it currently isn't is because the two are currently integrated. While it is likely that you are right, and they do want to build the downline further for during the pre-launch; I can't say I have a problem with that since one of my interests for joining would be the business opportunity.

I agree that when full launch happens they should have the service offered separately from COIL. We'll see how things progress.

[mpatient24]

I am not familar with the first 3 MLM's you quote but Quixtar, Amway and Herbalife have huge problems for anyone trying to make money with them for a long time
They are tapped out and only the people at the top are making money

You need to do a little research on them to see that your chances of making money are slim to none

Oh, no. I didn't say that I would join any of those 3, or even that you could currently make money. What I am saying is that they are successful MLM's, and in fact have been for MANY years. A great many people did in fact make money from these three, many still do. I had a sales pitch given to me for Quixtar as recent as 3 months ago. I'd never heard of them so the market is obviously not quite tapped out yet.

Creative Memories is a business for scrapbookers, AdvoCare is health products, and Mary Kay is make-up. CM & MK have been in business well over 15 years with an MLM structure and are still successful today with a viable business opportunity. I'm not certain how long AdvoCare has been in business, but it's at least 6-7 years if not much longer. I know that they are still going pretty strong on the MLM structure.

[mpatient24]

I am not interested in Jim's actual number of people in his level, or any one person for that matter.

Okay, well you have the number of people now. Can you use it?

[Arzel]

Okay, well you have the number of people now. Can you use it?

Simply having the total number of people is not useful in determining the interlevel fill rates, which are needed to model the probalistic nature of the model.

[mpatient24]

Simply having the total number of people is not useful in determining the interlevel fill rates, which are needed to model the probalistic nature of the model.

Okay. Have you spoken with Jim in the last day or so. He told me he was working to get you that information as you'd requested.

[logicRules]

Originaly posted by Ferret:
I am not familar with the first 3 MLM's you quote but Quixtar, Amway and Herbalife have huge problems for anyone trying to make money with them for a long time
They are tapped out and only the people at the top are making money

You need to do a little research on them to see that your chances of making money are slim to none

Look, Ferret and anyone else: I think that most of us know this already. I think that for sure mpatient24 knows this already. Like I said in my earlier post, if it passes two tests; one, being is there a legitimate product (real value at a reasonable price); and two, full disclosure of the business model, then where's the problem? I live in a state where there is betting on horses. Talk about poor odds - but everyone knows what the deal is, and so everyone it okay with it. I should say everyone but those who believe gambling is a sin - and there are plenty of folks in this neck of the woods who feel that way, but what are ya gonna do…..

Here's an analogy: An entrepreneur opens a brand new shoe store. In order to get the business off the ground quick, cause you know if he/she doesn't he/she is likely to go out of business, he/she sends out 10,000 special flyers. All the flyers have serial numbers, and the flyer advertises that 100 out of the 10,000 flyers sent out is good for half off any shoe purchase. The deal is, you come and purchase some shoes, and when you are paying, we'll see if your flyer is a winner. Now everyone knows that only 100 will get this benefit, and everyone knows that they have to buy some shoes to find out. And everyone is okay with that because regardless if they have a winning flyer, then still get what they paid for - test one: real value at a reasonable price.

comments?

logicRules

[Arzel]

Okay. Have you spoken with Jim in the last day or so. He told me he was working to get you that information as you'd requested.

Yes I did talk to Jim, and in return I told him I wouldn't badger him about providing that information. I will provide a more accuarate model when the information becomes available.

[Arzel]

Look, Ferret and anyone else: I think that most of us know this already. I think that for sure mpatient24 knows this already. Like I said in my earlier post, if it passes two tests; one, being is there a legitimate product (real value at a reasonable price); and two, full disclosure of the business model, then where's the problem? I live in a state where there is betting on horses. Talk about poor odds - but everyone knows what the deal is, and so everyone it okay with it. I should say everyone but those who believe gambling is a sin - and there are plenty of folks in this neck of the woods who feel that way, but what are ya gonna do…..

Here's an analogy: An entrepreneur opens a brand new shoe store. In order to get the business off the ground quick, cause you know if he/she doesn't he/she is likely to go out of business, he/she sends out 10,000 special flyers. All the flyers have serial numbers, and the flyer advertises that 100 out of the 10,000 flyers sent out is good for half off any shoe purchase. The deal is, you come and purchase some shoes, and when you are paying, we'll see if your flyer is a winner. Now everyone knows that only 100 will get this benefit, and everyone knows that they have to buy some shoes to find out. And everyone is okay with that because regardless if they have a winning flyer, then still get what they paid for - test one: real value at a reasonable price.

comments?

logicRules

What you have described is an illegal lottery because purchase is required. It doesn't matter if "everyone is okay" with it, it is still not legal. If there is no requirement to buy the shoes, ie you can come into the store and have a chance to win some shoes without having to purchase. A similar situation is the GM win a car deal. I think it was GM, where you could go to any registered GM dealer and press the OnStar button and have a chance to win a car. No purchase was required.

I am not sure how this deals with the Kanosis discussion.

In regards to your gambling annalogy, there is a huge difference between the two. If I am the first person to place a bet on a horse, my chances of winning are not greater than yours.

Assume you have a total of 1,000 people in the world able to participate, and you randomly pick each person in the order in which they place their bet (10 winning tickets sold out of 1,000 lets say) or get put into the pryamid (where the top ten people end up making money).

Person 1 would have a 1% chance of winning the lottery, but would have a 100% chance of winning the pryamid. Each remaining person has a 1% chance of winning the lottery, but only has a 0.9% chance of winning in the pryamid.

Person 2 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid. The remaining people have a 1% chance in the lotter, and a 0.8% chance in the pyramid.

....

Person 9 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid.
The remaining people have a 1% chance in the lottery and a 0.1% chance in the pryamid.

Person 10 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid. The remaining 990 people have a 1% chance in the lottery and a 0% chance in the pryamid.

To put it another way, your chance of winning in the lottery are independent of anyone elses chance of winning. You chance of winning in the pryamid are conditional on the number of people already in the pryamid, and the total possible number of winners.

[Webwatch]

Look, Ferret and anyone else: I think that most of us know this already. I think that for sure mpatient24 knows this already. Like I said in my earlier post, if it passes two tests; one, being is there a legitimate product (real value at a reasonable price); and two, full disclosure of the business model, then where's the problem? I live in a state where there is betting on horses. Talk about poor odds - but everyone knows what the deal is, and so everyone it okay with it. I should say everyone but those who believe gambling is a sin - and there are plenty of folks in this neck of the woods who feel that way, but what are ya gonna do…..
Hello Logic,
First i'd like to refer to the legitimate product you mention. I think we may differ on this as at the moment in my opinion there isn't a legitimate product.
There is coil and no matter how usefull this may be every end user who buys (or rents it for a month for $22) is placed in the matrix with an incentive to recruit other's i.e Pyramid Marketing this may change in the future but at the moment this act is undisputable In my opinion. Regarding full disclosure I'm not in a position to argue this at the moment due to it being such a grey area.
I do however like how you use a gambling analogy and percieve joining Kanosis as a gamble (thats if I understand you post correctly) as unlike true MLM's with Kanosis you are needed to recruit others to receive your commision and cannot achieve this from the sale of any other product or service.

I must also mention I have no problem with gambling as being in the UK we have many sources of gambling e.g. Horse Racing, Dog Racing & Betting shops are present in nearly every high street.
With gambling however you dont have to recruit others to increase your chance of winning you just place your bet and take your chance and enjoy the excitement while awaiting the result.

[mpatient24]

Look, Ferret and anyone else: I think that most of us know this already. I think that for sure mpatient24 knows this already. Like I said in my earlier post, if it passes two tests; one, being is there a legitimate product (real value at a reasonable price); and two, full disclosure of the business model, then where's the problem? I live in a state where there is betting on horses. Talk about poor odds - but everyone knows what the deal is, and so everyone it okay with it. I should say everyone but those who believe gambling is a sin - and there are plenty of folks in this neck of the woods who feel that way, but what are ya gonna do…..

Here's an analogy: An entrepreneur opens a brand new shoe store. In order to get the business off the ground quick, cause you know if he/she doesn't he/she is likely to go out of business, he/she sends out 10,000 special flyers. All the flyers have serial numbers, and the flyer advertises that 100 out of the 10,000 flyers sent out is good for half off any shoe purchase. The deal is, you come and purchase some shoes, and when you are paying, we'll see if your flyer is a winner. Now everyone knows that only 100 will get this benefit, and everyone knows that they have to buy some shoes to find out. And everyone is okay with that because regardless if they have a winning flyer, then still get what they paid for - test one: real value at a reasonable price.

comments?

logicRules

LMAO Great analogy!

[mpatient24]

What you have described is an illegal lottery because purchase is required. It doesn't matter if "everyone is okay" with it, it is still not legal. If there is no requirement to buy the shoes, ie you can come into the store and have a chance to win some shoes without having to purchase. A similar situation is the GM win a car deal. I think it was GM, where you could go to any registered GM dealer and press the OnStar button and have a chance to win a car. No purchase was required.

I am not sure how this deals with the Kanosis discussion.

In regards to your gambling annalogy, there is a huge difference between the two. If I am the first person to place a bet on a horse, my chances of winning are not greater than yours.

Assume you have a total of 1,000 people in the world able to participate, and you randomly pick each person in the order in which they place their bet (10 winning tickets sold out of 1,000 lets say) or get put into the pryamid (where the top ten people end up making money).

Person 1 would have a 1% chance of winning the lottery, but would have a 100% chance of winning the pryamid. Each remaining person has a 1% chance of winning the lottery, but only has a 0.9% chance of winning in the pryamid.

Person 2 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid. The remaining people have a 1% chance in the lotter, and a 0.8% chance in the pyramid.

....

Person 9 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid.
The remaining people have a 1% chance in the lottery and a 0.1% chance in the pryamid.

Person 10 would have a 1% chance in the lottery, and 100% in the pryamid. The remaining 990 people have a 1% chance in the lottery and a 0% chance in the pryamid.

To put it another way, your chance of winning in the lottery are independent of anyone elses chance of winning. You chance of winning in the pryamid are conditional on the number of people already in the pryamid, and the total possible number of winners.

We're not saying the scenarios are exactly the same. We're saying that if we sign up, we are AWARE of the risks. So what is the problem?

[mpatient24]

Hello Logic,
First i'd like to refer to the legitimate product you mention. I think we may differ on this as at the moment in my opinion there isn't a legitimate product.
There is coil and no matter how usefull this may be every end user who buys (or rents it for a month for $22) is placed in the matrix with an incentive to recruit other's i.e Pyramid Marketing this may change in the future but at the moment this act is undisputable In my opinion. Regarding full disclosure I'm not in a position to argue this at the moment due to it being such a grey area.
I do however like how you use a gambling analogy and percieve joining Kanosis as a gamble (thats if I understand you post correctly) as unlike true MLM's with Kanosis you are needed to recruit others to receive your commision and cannot achieve this from the sale of any other product or service.

I must also mention I have no problem with gambling as being in the UK we have many sources of gambling e.g. Horse Racing, Dog Racing & Betting shops are present in nearly every high street.
With gambling however you dont have to recruit others to increase your chance of winning you just place your bet and take your chance and enjoy the excitement while awaiting the result.

<sigh> I thought we'd already established this, but apparently not. You aren't recruiting to make money. You are in fact selling to make money. You are selling the Kanosis service, and the COIL product MEMBERSHIP. Because the membership IS the product the member has to be placed in the matrix (of members). BUT... they do NOT have to SELL anything, or tell another soul about it. They just pay for their membership/service/product, and continue with their lives. Or they can CHOOSE to tell other people about this product/service. If those other people CHOOSE to BUY the membership/service/product, a commission is paid and the new customer is given those very same options.

[logicRules]

Arzel - I have no argument with your comparison of gambling VS and the Kanosis model (whether you say it is MLM or a pyramid). I never said they were identical. My point is that as long as one understands the model - how it works, including the odds being better for the first rather than the last etc... Here we get back to full disclosure - as I have always said, this must be met - all the cards on the table. Now we're back to personal choice.

Webwatch - again, comparing to gambling, you point out the difference of having to recruit others. So what - again, full disclosure. If those are the rules, and you know it before getting involved - so what. Some aspects are comparable to gambling, and some aren't - analogies are never 100%. And as for the legitimate product test, if one can reasonably show that COIL is worth $22 a month, then it almost doesn't matter about being in the matrix - don't recruit if you don't want to. The problem that I have with it, is that I don't want people that are only interested in COIL to be in the matrix, because then they hinder the growth of the matrix - that would be my concern. For them, I would like to see this option. As far as is it worth $22 on it's own? You and I both know that with something like software, that question is totally subjective - especially when your in this low of a price range. It becomes more objective the higher the price goes, but we're not in that price range here. Most of us likely blow more than $22 a month on dinner out and the movies, so this price range is really in the realm of entertainment - and for me, the chance to make good on this is entertainment really. I'm not going to quit my day job!

[Arzel]

We're not saying the scenarios are exactly the same. We're saying that if we sign up, we are AWARE of the risks. So what is the problem?

My problem with Logicrules argument is that the first one is illegal, and the second one is not relevent.

[Arzel]

Arzel - I have no argument with your comparison of gambling VS and the Kanosis model (whether you say it is MLM or a pyramid). I never said they were identical. My point is that as long as one understands the model - how it works, including the odds being better for the first rather than the last etc... Here we get back to full disclosure - as I have always said, this must be met - all the cards on the table. Now we're back to personal choice.

Webwatch - again, comparing to gambling, you point out the difference of having to recruit others. So what - again, full disclosure. If those are the rules, and you know it before getting involved - so what. Some aspects are comparable to gambling, and some aren't - analogies are never 100%. And as for the legitimate product test, if one can reasonably show that COIL is worth $22 a month, then it almost doesn't matter about being in the matrix - don't recruit if you don't want to. The problem that I have with it, is that I don't want people that are only interested in COIL to be in the matrix, because then they hinder the growth of the matrix - that would be my concern. For them, I would like to see this option. As far as is it worth $22 on it's own? You and I both know that with something like software, that question is totally subjective - especially when your in this low of a price range. It becomes more objective the higher the price goes, but we're not in that price range here. Most of us likely blow more than $22 a month on dinner out and the movies, so this price range is really in the realm of entertainment - and for me, the chance to make good on this is entertainment really. I'm not going to quit my day job!

At this point they do not have full disclosure. Additionally, the way it is currently marketed does not disclose that your odds of success are dependent on how early you get into the matrix.

Both yours and Mpatient24 recent logic is annalogous of that of the common matrix opportunist. I feel your viewpoint neutrality is no longer valid.

[Webwatch]

<sigh> I thought we'd already established this, but apparently not. You aren't recruiting to make money. You are in fact selling to make money. You are selling the Kanosis service, and the COIL product MEMBERSHIP. Because the membership IS the product the member has to be placed in the matrix (of members). BUT... they do NOT have to SELL anything, or tell another soul about it. They just pay for their membership/service/product, and continue with their lives. Or they can CHOOSE to tell other people about this product/service. If those other people CHOOSE to BUY the membership/service/product, a commission is paid and the new customer is given those very same options.

<Double Sigh and a little tut and shake of the head>
Your nearly there its only the bit in bold you have wrong.
You are recruiting (hence the pyramid structure) if you weren't recruiting there would be no matrix or pyramid model to discuss and I would'nt have a problem or even an argument.
Thank you. And it is a neutral standpoint. As I said, I am a skeptic that has not joined.. YET. I do feel that Kanosis has some potential. Mainly, I enjoy playing devil's advocate, and for a max. investment of $270 for a year, I'm willing to take a chance. I will however make sure anybody I sign up when I join has facts, and is aware of the possibility of not making any money.

A bit presumtious to assume what we have established, I can only comment on what I have established in my mind. Still I suppose thats what the whole part of playing Devil's Advocate is all about.
It not my intention to stop anyone joining only to offer an opinion based on what experience I have gained from researching & investigating Pyramid Schemes and how they all eventually collapse.

[mpatient24]

The problem that I have with it, is that I don't want people that are only interested in COIL to be in the matrix, because then they hinder the growth of the matrix - that would be my concern. For them, I would like to see this option.
I don't think it does hinder the growth because it's a forced matrix. The way it was explained to me is that as your matrix fills, the empty spots are filled first. It's hard to explain this without a diagram, but I'll do my best.

Person A is at the top of the Matrix. Person B & C is on their 2nd level. Person B doesn't want to sell, but person C does. That doesn't mean there is no growth under person B. It just will be in Person A's matrix, and person B's personal matrix won't grow. The next person that A sells to would fill the slots immediatly under B. I just would only benefit A and those selling above or or below A. B still fills the same spot and commission is paid out on that one spot to those in the upline, but the downline does continue even though B doesn't participate. It just continues in A's matrix and A's upline matrix.

Did that make any sense? Again, that one is easier with pen & paper.

Logic Rules,

Are you a member?

[mpatient24]

Okay, well I did just finish signing up and I'm checking everything out. Before I make any specific comments on it I'm going to get reviews from my techie friends and have my skeptical fiance play with the software a bit. I'll let you know what I think on the product after that.

As far as the MLM. I don't think there is a question. It is a viable MLM business. And as long as everybody knows what they are signing up for, there shouldn't be a problem.

[mpatient24]

<Double Sigh and a little tut and shake of the head>
Your nearly there its only the bit in bold you have wrong.
You are recruiting (hence the pyramid structure) if you weren't recruiting there would be no matrix or pyramid model to discuss and I would'nt have a problem or even an argument.

lol But again I do disagree. Because it is a Forced Matrix, you only have to SELL the product twice to join the business opportunity and get paid commissions on the matrix that will eventually be forced downward into your own. (At least if you get in early enough. I am aware of the potential differences of being at the bottom vs. the top and it is the SAME in every MLM.) The people you SELL to, do Not have to sell anything. Obviously the Matrix will move faster if they do, but they absolutely do not have to if they don't want to. So as you can see. Because every purchase does fill a spot in the matrix, there is still a matrix model. You just have to SELL to get paid commissions, and build your OWN matrix. A matrix will be building either way.

[Webwatch]

Okay, well I did just finish signing up and I'm checking everything out. Before I make any specific comments on it I'm going to get reviews from my techie friends and have my skeptical fiance play with the software a bit. I'll let you know what I think on the product after that.

As far as the MLM. I don't think there is a question. It is a viable MLM business. And as long as everybody knows what they are signing up for, there shouldn't be a problem.

Please let us know what you think of the software and examples of how you are using it in everday life would be nice too.

Keep us posted on how your downline is growing too I think this can be viewed from your back office (so ive heard).

I bet your in my downline :evil: (Only kidding honest)

[Webwatch]

lol But again I do disagree. Because it is a Forced Matrix, you only have to SELL the product twice to join the business opportunity and get paid commissions on the matrix that will eventually be forced downward into your own. (At least if you get in early enough. I am aware of the potential differences of being at the bottom vs. the top and it is the SAME in every MLM.) The people you SELL to, do Not have to sell anything. Obviously the Matrix will move faster if they do, but they absolutely do not have to if they don't want to. So as you can see. Because every purchase does fill a spot in the matrix, there is still a matrix model. You just have to SELL to get paid commissions, and build your OWN matrix. A matrix will be building either way.

O.K. can we agree to disagree. Just keep us all posted on how you are getting on. I dont think you will be allowed to post any refferal id's but an honest review would be great.

I wonder what would happen if the two people you recruit dont recruit (or sell) coil to any of their friends would you have to wait for overspill from others above or beside you which could take ages and ages.

[mpatient24]

Please let us know what you think of the software and examples of how you are using it in everday life would be nice too.

Keep us posted on how your downline is growing too I think this can be viewed from your back office (so ive heard).

I bet your in my downline :evil: (Only kidding honest)

lol right. It can be viewed right from the main page after you sign in. In fact today's #'s are: 43 sign-ups so far to date, and 3983 YTD. Obviously I don't have a downline yet. I've been a member less than an hour, but happy to keep it posted.

[mpatient24]

O.K. can we agree to disagree. Just keep us all posted on how you are getting on. I dont think you will be allowed to post any refferal id's but an honest review would be great.

I wonder what would happen if the two people you recruit dont recruit (or sell) coil to any of their friends would you have to wait for overspill from others above or beside you which could take ages and ages.

I will keep everybody updated.

You could wait for overspill to earn commissions or... SELL :p more product to continue your own matrix.

[Arzel]

From other thread to keep things organized.


I don't know why there are so many separate threads going on, and I know this is a post that was done a while back but I do feel the need to comment on the remarks being made about what information Kanosis is allowing us to give. As of today I did sign up and so am privy to that in the member's area, though I haven't gotten to review it all yet.

Even prior to joining I checked with Jim to find out if he or Kanosis would have a problem with my posting pictures of the software, or discussing details once I becane a member. He told me to go for it. What they are trying to put an end to is the inaccurate information that is circling, as well as those people out there that are just "recruiting" rather than SELLING the product as it is meant. As you can imagine it is difficult to keep control over that many individuals.

(i.e.) Creative Memories prohibits consultants from selling their products on ebay, in any type of retail location includng mall kiosks, trade shows, etc. Yet people try it all the time, and in fact, type that into an ebay search and see how many hits you get.



The point you bring up is one of the inherent problems with MLM's in general, and something I refer as an inequity of balance or an unbounded equation.

Since ther is no real incentive NOT to recruit it will always be the optimal solution. However it is an unbounded solution in that your objective is to simply recruit an infinate number of people.

If there are any Integer or Linear Programming people in these threads, they would immediately recognize my line of thought, and thus see that the dual problem is infeasible (which is why pryamids schemes always fail). Of course failure in this sense is a little different since there are actual physical constraints on the actual number of people available to recruit, but in the design of the model it is assumed that their are none by the model designers, or that if their is, the don't concern themselves with it.

But I digress, and back to the original point. Why would any member of an MLM not recruit? The only way for this not to take place is to reduce the incentive to recruit. For Kanosis, there is only one incentive, and that is to get as many people as possible in your downline. The game theory model indicates that to "win" you must do this faster than anyone else before you bump up against the constraint of available people to recruit. And the fastest way to do this is to promote the money making aspect of being a member.

You are already seeing this. Even though they have directed against advertising Kanosis during the pre-lauch, a quick google search brings up more and more referral links. Before long you will have thousands of referral links being advertised all over the places as each member tries to fill their downline as quickly as possible.

And yes I realise their is a limit to downline of ~32,000 people, but for all practical reasons it is basicall to recruit as many people as possible, and my modeling thus far indicates that even in a very full matrix almost noone will accomplish this feat, even with 10 million members I cannot model the top peson to be able to completely fill their matrix.
__________________

[mpatient24]

From other thread to keep things organized.
The point you bring up is one of the inherent problems with MLM's in general, and something I refer as an inequity of balance or an unbounded equation.

Since ther is no real incentive NOT to recruit it will always be the optimal solution. However it is an unbounded solution in that your objective is to simply recruit an infinate number of people.

If there are any Integer or Linear Programming people in these threads, they would immediately recognize my line of thought, and thus see that the dual problem is infeasible (which is why pryamids schemes always fail). Of course failure in this sense is a little different since there are actual physical constraints on the actual number of people available to recruit, but in the design of the model it is assumed that their are none by the model designers, or that if their is, the don't concern themselves with it.

But I digress, and back to the original point. Why would any member of an MLM not recruit? The only way for this not to take place is to reduce the incentive to recruit. For Kanosis, there is only one incentive, and that is to get as many people as possible in your downline. The game theory model indicates that to "win" you must do this faster than anyone else before you bump up against the constraint of available people to recruit. And the fastest way to do this is to promote the money making aspect of being a member.

You are already seeing this. Even though they have directed against advertising Kanosis during the pre-lauch, a quick google search brings up more and more referral links. Before long you will have thousands of referral links being advertised all over the places as each member tries to fill their downline as quickly as possible.

And yes I realise their is a limit to downline of ~32,000 people, but for all practical reasons it is basicall to recruit as many people as possible, and my modeling thus far indicates that even in a very full matrix almost noone will accomplish this feat, even with 10 million members I cannot model the top peson to be able to completely fill their matrix.
That may be true that there is incentive to sell, but why else would you do it? For fun? The basic fact is the the choice is there. You can join Kanosis and use COIL, paying for the service of both without selling, recruiting, or telling another person.

[Arzel]

That may be true that there is incentive to sell, but why else would you do it? For fun? The basic fact is the the choice is there. You can join Kanosis and use COIL, paying for the service of both without selling, recruiting, or telling another person.

Actually I said the only incentive is to recruit. I don't define this as selling since each member is not actually selling anything to anyone else. Kanosis is doing all the selling, the members are simply recruiting new members.

[Webwatch]

That may be true that there is incentive to sell, but why else would you do it? For fun? The basic fact is the the choice is there. You can join Kanosis and use COIL, paying for the service of both without selling, recruiting, or telling another person.
Excellent so now you've joined was it for the software or the incentive to recruit that enticed you?.
(sell or recruit are both undeniably the same in a Pyramid Scheme and symbiotically conducive to the success or failure of that scheme).
Try not to think of yourself as a member of Kanosis more an agent selling a service you will never own for a 5% commision and also paying the company you work for $22 a month for the privelidge, unless you are just in it for the product then you are paying 77% to eveyone else in your upline and 23% for the service. But if the service is of use to you and brings some benefit to your life then this aspect wont matter as a coil seat has been valued at anywhere between $100 & $500 depending upon which Kanosis agent you speak to. You may also find as the competition for new recruits increases you will understand what a dog eat dog world a salesmans truly is.

All Pyramid Schemes use the Incentive to recruit in order to build potential wealth. It is only once joined that total denial kicks in and you will wish to seek out and attempt to discredit any one who attempts to imply that a mistake may have been made in joining. You wont realise what you have actually joined untill a few weeks from now. This sudden awakening can take longer if the key members can extend the promise of commisions or delay the so called payment of these commisions or even promise large corporate clients are interested.

Pre-launch or launch the only difference is the feeling of getting in early which the phrase pre-launch instills. Call it subliminal, suggestive or trick marketing it is a well known and commonly used technique.
Only when you dig deep enough will you find that most companies will use any technique available to sell a product or service, usually the more illegal or shady the technique the worse the product or service. **As I have no knowledge of the usefullness of Coil, to be fair to Jim this paragraph is based on an assumption and should be treated as such**

The use of conference calls is also essential to continue the feeling of wellbeing and instill the misconception of potential wealth into members of the matrix and you will be invited to participate and bring friends and family along into these calls.

Just my opinion as always.

[logicRules]

mpatient24 - no, not a membet.......yet.

Arzel - opportunist is a strong word - that would imply that one is withholding important information from the other - information that might sway the others decision if known. As I hope I have been clear, I only condone the proposition IF there is full disclosure - I trust I don't have to explain what full disclosure means.

[Arzel]

mpatient24 - no, not a membet.......yet.

Arzel - opportunist is a strong word - that would imply that one is withholding important information from the other - information that might sway the others decision if known. As I hope I have been clear, I only condone the proposition IF there is full disclosure - I trust I don't have to explain what full disclosure means.

I don't mean to say you are an opportunist, but this following quote from you.

...It becomes more objective the higher the price goes, but we're not in that price range here. Most of us likely blow more than $22 a month on dinner out and the movies, so this price range is really in the realm of entertainment - and for me, the chance to make good on this is entertainment really. I'm not going to quit my day job!

is exactly the type of logic that many matrix scammers have used in the past. I call it kind of a "look over here" approach of making the cost seem minimal. Many matrix opportunists (those that are in the matrix trying to get other people to join and pay them out) used this kind of logic as to say. "If it works Great!, if not you are only out $20, which is more than you would spend on a night on the town." This logic was used by scores of people in trying to get new victims for the YMMSS scam. "$10 a week, that is just one less day a week of eating out." It is an easy way to get people to do something they may not normally do.

[Looking]

Mpatient24 & Kanosisians
Interesting replies to my previous post. However I would like to focus on the points below:

Kanosis member what is your answer to my first question?

Has anyone who downloaded the Coil software recently, experienced problems with an invalid digital signiture poping up when launching Coil?

Got any ideas on the second question?

What is the legal ramification of ignoring the digtal signiture and proceding regardless?

I would suggest that by ignoring such a warning means you potentialy forgo the legal right to assert a complaint with service and products/membership Kanosis provides.
To be a member of kanosis you have to buy the subscription first. Only then can you upload the Coil software to find out what you think you bought-(Coil? Biz Opp?Applications?Special membership?Security? Funny Feelling?) in order to reap the benefits of that subscription. If you ignore the warning and choose to continue installing Coil is Kanosis legaly bound for any shortcomings there after?

That is why I believe it would be helpfull to establish whether other Kanosisians have invariably had too make this or simular choices.
Jim stated that he would get this problem sorted. Is that the case or not?

As far as I recall this forum esablished that 3rd party VPN access is less safe/secure or a least potentialy less controllably safe than ones own access let alone VPN access.
What is the situation regards earlier posts i lodged asking for a full explanation of technical and security issues relating to a normal portal verses Coil-OS portal. Im still waiting for Jims definitive answers. Not the partial ones I beleive he has provided thus far I hope they are every bit as colourfull as the ones I seem to have been so singularly privilaged to receive.
:eek:

[logicRules]

Arzel - again, your use of the word "scammer" suggests that "people" like me are out to suspend peoples ability to reason for themselves. I just have to come back to full disclosure. But even if you could make the argument that Kanosis is selling a dream based on an overpriced, unproven product, is it still scamming if there is full disclosure? If I'm selling gas on one corner for twice what they're selling it for on the other corner, and someone asks me, "why is your gas twice as much", and I reply, "no reason other than I want to make more money", and he says, "oh, okay, fill'er up", has that person, who we will assume is of average intelligence, been scammed?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Kanosis - there are still too many questions. My arguments are just in general, and in general, if you provide full disclosure to people of average or better intelligence, then there is no scamming going on - they have the facts to weigh, and a choice to make. Again, maybe we need to really define full disclosure - maybe in another post - supper is ready.

[JNRAY]

HI Looking

In case you havent read the Faqs in your member space here it is:

I can’t launch COIL?

There are several reasons why you may receive a ‘Cannot Launch’ error message.

First, check that your Internet connection is up.

If your connection is working properly, the next thing to check is the version of JAVA that you have downloaded. See the question How do I get Started with COIL? for details of how to get the latest version of JAVA.

You may need to clear the cache on your Internet browser. To do this, in the Microsoft Internet Browser select Internet Options from the Tools menu. In the General page under the Temporary Internet Files section, click Delete Files. This deletes all temporary Internet files saved on your computer. Depending on how many files there are, this may take a little time. When complete, open the Kanosis home page and try to re-launch COIL.

Some virus scanners can block JAVA applications from running. Check the settings in your virus scanner and enable it to run JAVA applications.

Finally, if you are launching COIL from your office, you may be behind a corporate firewall. COIL runs on port 9666. If you are behind a corporate firewall, please confirm with your Network Administrator that this port is open. If not, ask them to open it to run a secure JAVA application.

[Arzel]

Arzel - again, your use of the word "scammer" suggests that "people" like me are out to suspend peoples ability to reason for themselves. I just have to come back to full disclosure. But even if you could make the argument that Kanosis is selling a dream based on an overpriced, unproven product, is it still scamming if there is full disclosure? If I'm selling gas on one corner for twice what they're selling it for on the other corner, and someone asks me, "why is your gas twice as much", and I reply, "no reason other than I want to make more money", and he says, "oh, okay, fill'er up", has that person, who we will assume is of average intelligence, been scammed?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to defend Kanosis - there are still too many questions. My arguments are just in general, and in general, if you provide full disclosure to people of average or better intelligence, then there is no scamming going on - they have the facts to weigh, and a choice to make. Again, maybe we need to really define full disclosure - maybe in another post - supper is ready.

I didn't say you were a scammer, nor did I say that Kanosis was scamming people. I simply said that your logic was similar to that of many scammers we have encountered, and when using that type of logic your arguments lose their credibility with those of us that have been in this for a while, specifically the logic is that which I mentioned earlier.

"Most of us likely blow more than $22 a month on dinner out and the movies, so this price range is really in the realm of entertainment - and for me, the chance to make good on this is entertainment really"

[mpatient24]

Actually I said the only incentive is to recruit. I don't define this as selling since each member is not actually selling anything to anyone else. Kanosis is doing all the selling, the members are simply recruiting new members.

I do define it as selling. When I approach someone about Kanosis I will tell them about COIL and the community which costs $22/mo. I will then tell them about the option to earn commission by selling the membership to others. However, if you don't consider it selling, at least consider it referring. Recruiting doesn't generally produce commission the way referrals, or sales do. With Kanosis there IS a product. With recruitment there generally isn't. You get recruited to the army. You get referred to your insurance company. See the difference?

[mpatient24]

Excellent so now you've joined was it for the software or the incentive to recruit that enticed you?.
(sell or recruit are both undeniably the same in a Pyramid Scheme and symbiotically conducive to the success or failure of that scheme).
Try not to think of yourself as a member of Kanosis more an agent selling a service you will never own for a 5% commision and also paying the company you work for $22 a month for the privelidge, unless you are just in it for the product then you are paying 77% to eveyone else in your upline and 23% for the service. But if the service is of use to you and brings some benefit to your life then this aspect wont matter as a coil seat has been valued at anywhere between $100 & $500 depending upon which Kanosis agent you speak to. You may also find as the competition for new recruits increases you will understand what a dog eat dog world a salesmans truly is.

Dog Eat Dog world. LOL I'm a mortgage loan officer. If that says anything about my familiarity. As far as paying everybody else 77%, and only paying 23% for the service, who cares! There is retail mark-up on EVERYTHING. Right now I'm planning a wedding. The bridal industry is one gigantic scheme. Did you know veils cost anywhere from $200-1000? Faux pearl necklaces on fishing line: $275. They pay like $10.00 for stuff like this.

All Pyramid Schemes use the Incentive to recruit in order to build potential wealth. It is only once joined that total denial kicks in and you will wish to seek out and attempt to discredit any one who attempts to imply that a mistake may have been made in joining. You wont realise what you have actually joined untill a few weeks from now. This sudden awakening can take longer if the key members can extend the promise of commisions or delay the so called payment of these commisions or even promise large corporate clients are interested.

Pre-launch or launch the only difference is the feeling of getting in early which the phrase pre-launch instills. Call it subliminal, suggestive or trick marketing it is a well known and commonly used technique.
Only when you dig deep enough will you find that most companies will use any technique available to sell a product or service, usually the more illegal or shady the technique the worse the product or service. **As I have no knowledge of the usefullness of Coil, to be fair to Jim this paragraph is based on an assumption and should be treated as such**

They've already started paying commission. My friend confirmed that he received his first deposit to his Uniclear account. I remember somebody saying that they wanted to know the Uniclear fees and I told them to check the Uniclear website. They felt that Kanosis would somehow add additional charges. I checked. You sign up directly with Uniclear and then provide Kanosis with the account number for deposits.

[/QUOTE]The use of conference calls is also essential to continue the feeling of wellbeing and instill the misconception of potential wealth into members of the matrix and you will be invited to participate and bring friends and family along into these calls.[/QUOTE]
All MLM have conference calls. Advocare, Creative Memories, and Mary Kay I've heard myself. They are still doing it many years after "launch" and are still very successful.

[mpatient24]

mpatient24 - no, not a membet.......yet.

:shake: Uhm... just because you couldn't find me by typing mpatient24 into the sign up page doesn't mean I'm not a member. It just means that isn't my user id. In fact... take off the 24 and you should find me.

[mpatient24]

Mpatient24 & Kanosisians
Interesting replies to my previous post. However I would like to focus on the points below:

Kanosis member what is your answer to my first question?

Has anyone who downloaded the Coil software recently, experienced problems with an invalid digital signiture poping up when launching Coil?
Yes, I got that. They are a new company and that really doesn't surprise me. I work for one of the largest mortgage companies in the nation. We use a web based application, and when you install it, their certificate is expired and I get the same warning. Therefore the certificate warning for COIL doesn't really concern me. I'll ask Jim about it though. I'm quite certain it will be fixed in time.


Got any ideas on the second question?

What is the legal ramification of ignoring the digtal signiture and proceding regardless?

I would suggest that by ignoring such a warning means you potentialy forgo the legal right to assert a complaint with service and products/membership Kanosis provides. I doubt it. The fact that my mortgage company's software has a certificate issue certainly doesn't mean that. That is a legal issue however, and if it concerns you I would consult legal counsel.


To be a member of kanosis you have to buy the subscription first. Only then can you upload the Coil software to find out what you think you bought-(Coil? Biz Opp?Applications?Special membership?Security? Funny Feelling?) in order to reap the benefits of that subscription. If you ignore the warning and choose to continue installing Coil is Kanosis legaly bound for any shortcomings there after?

That is why I believe it would be helpfull to establish whether other Kanosisians have invariably had too make this or simular choices.
Jim stated that he would get this problem sorted. Is that the case or not?

As far as I recall this forum esablished that 3rd party VPN access is less safe/secure or a least potentialy less controllably safe than ones own access let alone VPN access.
What is the situation regards earlier posts i lodged asking for a full explanation of technical and security issues relating to a normal portal verses Coil-OS portal. Im still waiting for Jims definitive answers. Not the partial ones I beleive he has provided thus far I hope they are every bit as colourfull as the ones I seem to have been so singularly privilaged to receive.
:eek:

I don't know enough about the technical aspect to intelligently debate it. So I'm not going to attempt to. Any other takers? Jim?

[mpatient24]

Excellent so now you've joined was it for the software or the incentive to recruit that enticed you?.

Actually it was straight up curiosity. I'm intrigued by the software, and the business opportunity sounds viable. At least for now. I don't mind risking the $59, or even $270 for the year to find out what it's all about. It seems a limited risk compared to playing the stock market for example.

I'm really surprised that since this entire website is about protecting the public, and ya'll have so many questions that nobody was willing to pay the $59 just to do a review. In the interest of protecting the public of course. Once I've had more time to sort through all of it, I will give my review including my fiance's opinions.

[mpatient24]

My problem with Logicrules argument is that the first one is illegal, and the second one is not relevent.
Okay, I get that. But nothing about Kanosis is illegal, and it still comes down to information. How informed are you? We're aware of the risk and willing to take it.

[mpatient24]

At this point they do not have full disclosure. Additionally, the way it is currently marketed does not disclose that your odds of success are dependent on how early you get into the matrix.

Both yours and Mpatient24 recent logic is annalogous of that of the common matrix opportunist. I feel your viewpoint neutrality is no longer valid.
I am neutral, and still skeptical. And I'm aware that odds of success are dependent upon how early you get in. I do think that Kanosis has improved the odds on the standard matrix, but I'm not arguing the basic point. They do have full disclosure. I was made aware of it, I understand it, and I still joined. Of course that's just cause I wanted to see it. Kind of like Texas Hold 'em. You have a crappy hand, but you pay to see the flop anyway. Like I said, I need more time playing with COIL and in the community to give a decent review. I'm still learning my way around it.

[mpatient24]

A bit presumtious to assume what we have established, I can only comment on what I have established in my mind. Still I suppose thats what the whole part of playing Devil's Advocate is all about.
It not my intention to stop anyone joining only to offer an opinion based on what experience I have gained from researching & investigating Pyramid Schemes and how they all eventually collapse.

Devil's advocate is always enjoyable, but can't be efficiently done without all the facts. Hence my signing up. However, I only signed up today and I think I've held my own against your arguments. Some of you, no matter how skeptical, have to admit that they show some merit, and there just Might be something this Kanosis thing.

[mpatient24]

I didn't say you were a scammer, nor did I say that Kanosis was scamming people. I simply said that your logic was similar to that of many scammers we have encountered, and when using that type of logic your arguments lose their credibility with those of us that have been in this for a while, specifically the logic is that which I mentioned earlier.

"Most of us likely blow more than $22 a month on dinner out and the movies, so this price range is really in the realm of entertainment - and for me, the chance to make good on this is entertainment really"

I think that he's simply saying that HE is willing to spend the money because this investment, scam or viable, is entertaining to him. Why does that make him sound like a scammer?

[Arzel]

Actually it was straight up curiosity. I'm intrigued by the software, and the business opportunity sounds viable. At least for now. I don't mind risking the $59, or even $270 for the year to find out what it's all about. It seems a limited risk compared to playing the stock market for example.

I'm really surprised that since this entire website is about protecting the public, and ya'll have so many questions that nobody was willing to pay the $59 just to do a review. In the interest of protecting the public of course. Once I've had more time to sort through all of it, I will give my review including my fiance's opinions.

You can stop your dog and pony show. We all know you are in it for the money, and actually your risk in the stock market is far less, or perhaps you don't understand how risk works.

You are gambling, plain and simple. You are betting your $22 a month that you will be able to get enough people under you to make money.

As for one of us purchasing the product and reviewing it, I don't think you should have to pay for a beta product. Additionally I don't have a problem with the product. As I have mentioned many times before, I have a problem with companies using the matrix model, and I particularly have a problem with them using it to promote a way to get rich. Kanosis itself is not blatent in this aspect, and Jim has assured us that they are updating their website to make it more clear that it is not a get rich scheme. Many of the members on the otherhand are promoting it as a get rich scheme to their possible referrals.


My problem with Logicrules argument is that the first one is illegal, and the second one is not relevent.


Okay, I get that. But nothing about Kanosis is illegal, and it still comes down to information. How informed are you? We're aware of the risk and willing to take it.

I never said Kanosis was illegal.

As for my information level, what do you mean by that? When it comes to the matrix model and how it works, I consider myself an expert. As to what COIL is and what it can do, I have only the information provided by their website and that of some of the users.

Your last comment about being aware of the risk and willing to take it, is straight out of the matrix opportunist handbook. I cannot tell you how many times I have been told that by other people as mad as can be that we publically told them the scam they were in would fail, especially in the beginning when most people did not know how the matrix scam worked.

I think I can safely say you are not neutral regarding Kanosis, and have a vested interest in promoting it as a money making endevour.

[Arzel]

Devil's advocate is always enjoyable, but can't be efficiently done without all the facts. Hence my signing up. However, I only signed up today and I think I've held my own against your arguments. Some of you, no matter how skeptical, have to admit that they show some merit, and there just Might be something this Kanosis thing.

As I have said many times, I do think their product has some merit, and for me personally it has never been about their product.

[mpatient24]

You can stop your dog and pony show. We all know you are in it for the money, and actually your risk in the stock market is far less, or perhaps you don't understand how risk works. I've stayed respectful during this entire debate and do expect the same. If I were in it for the money I wouldn't be wasting my time arguing with you and would instead be calling everybody I know. I haven't called or introduced it to a single person. I want to take the time to review the software and the community. To get the opinion of those I trust.
You are gambling, plain and simple. You are betting your $22 a month that you will be able to get enough people under you to make money. No. I am paying $59 to check the whole thing out. Whether I will continue to pay $22/mo and participate in the business opportunity still remains to be seen.

As for one of us purchasing the product and reviewing it, I don't think you should have to pay for a beta product. Additionally I don't have a problem with the product. As I have mentioned many times before, I have a problem with companies using the matrix model, and I particularly have a problem with them using it to promote a way to get rich. Kanosis itself is not blatent in this aspect, and Jim has assured us that they are updating their website to make it more clear that it is not a get rich scheme. Many of the members on the otherhand are promoting it as a get rich scheme to their possible referrals. I've never seen Kanosis advertise their business opportunity as a get rich quick scheme. And I saw all of Arzel's matrix models before signing up.


I never said Kanosis was illegal. And I never said you did.

As for my information level, what do you mean by that? When it comes to the matrix model and how it works, I consider myself an expert. As to what COIL is and what it can do, I have only the information provided by their website and that of some of the users. You completely misinterpreted my statement. I was in no way challenging your knowledge of a matrix model or how it works. In fact I wasn't "challenging" anything. I was simply stating that the information is out there, like on this forum. That those of us choosing to join are making an informed decision.

Your last comment about being aware of the risk and willing to take it, is straight out of the matrix opportunist handbook. I cannot tell you how many times I have been told that by other people as mad as can be that we publically told them the scam they were in would fail, especially in the beginning when most people did not know how the matrix scam worked. I know how a matrix scam works... at least in theory. I just believe there is a possiblity that Kanosis is not a scam, but a legitimate business venture. I'm sorry... I've neve read the matrix opportunist handbook. And nobody has ever called me an opportunist before. I'm simply stating a fact. I personally am aware that their could be a possible risk.. of not making money, or the company going under and having wasted time using a software program I can no onger access. Regardless. I'm aware and for a small price willing to check it all out.

I think I can safely say you are not neutral regarding Kanosis, and have a vested interest in promoting it as a money making endevour. lol Whatever. You consider yourself neutral????? If I had vested interest then I will again state that I would not be here continuing this debate that I am so much enjoying, :evil: but would instead be working the business angle.

[JimSouthworth]

[I doubt it. The fact that my mortgage company's software has a certificate issue certainly doesn't mean that. That is a legal issue however, and if it concerns you I would consult legal counsel Mpatient24, your assumptions are correct…. Looking is doing just that, he is “looking for and excuse to be critical for the sake of being critical”. While some aspects of the Coil software and the Java web-start platform integrated browser are being modified to incorporate new features, there are situations that will occur when a certificate doesn’t transfer properly between software releases…. It doesn’t mean that the data isn’t encrypted, it doesn’t mean anything other than some of software doesn’t supply an appropriate recognized Certificate Authority “Blessed” certificate. Usually this gets fixed in a few minutes after being detected or reported. In our case we are shifting to a whole new set of servers for the web interface and the existing certificate didn’t transfer properly. It doesn’t hurt anything and in this case means only that there is an irritation to the users who experience it. It will be resolved momentarily with the new server this week.

to be a member of kanosis you have to buy the subscription first. Only then can you upload the Coil software to find out what you think you bought-(Coil? Biz Opp?Applications?Special membership?Security? Funny Feelling?) in order to reap the benefits of that subscription. If you ignore the warning and choose to continue installing Coil is Kanosis legally bound for any shortcomings there after?

That is why I believe it would be helpfull to establish whether other Kanosisians have invariably had too make this or simular choices.
Jim stated that he would get this problem sorted. Is that the case or not?
What are you talking about??? Kanosis never waives its responsibility to its members and users of its service PERIOD. We will fix and support all the Kanosis products our customers have available for them to use without exception ALWAYS….
As far as I recall this forum esablished that 3rd party VPN access is less safe/secure or a least potentialy less controllably safe than ones own access let alone VPN access. As far I remember the only person with expertise in security who participated in that discussion, explained that the security environment that Kanosis is using meets or exceeds that in use by most all banks and even government agencies. In fact even all the military operations across the web use trusted third party operations. The most haneous crimes ever committed via security compromise occured using point to point and then standard VPN gateway architecture system that would have been much sooner detected if it had been done the way Kanoss operates. Again, you manufactured a completely non-factual statement to sell a false statement on your part.
What is the situation regards earlier posts i lodged asking for a full explanation of technical and security issues relating to a normal portal verses Coil-OS portal. Im still waiting for Jims definitive answers. Not the partial ones I beleive he has provided thus far I hope they are every bit as colourfull as the ones I seem to have been so singularly privilaged to receive. What the hell are you talking about ???? If you want to know what the difference between a normal generic Portal (Standard secure website) and the Coil-OS portal is its very simple. Coil is a completely integrated Java web-start based application which besides using it’s own browser equivalence also in our case propagates applications and their “Data both in motion and at rest” in a completely tunneled and encrypted format. All data, not just and only the web browser based transaction that a normal generic portal does…. And last of all, yes you did get a broad side of frustration vented on you by me by Private Message because of your irresponsible accusation style of asking a question instead of a reasonable, respectful way of asking as almost everybody has and does has been doing on this site. I believe I used the word “Jerk”

I don't know enough about the technical aspect to intelligently debate it. So I'm not going to attempt to. Any other takers? Jim? Thanks lady for your help…. That is a very nice picture of you as well as all the rest that you posted in your personal area on Kanosis.

[Webwatch]

Devil's advocate is always enjoyable, but can't be efficiently done without all the facts. Hence my signing up. However, I only signed up today and I think I've held my own against your arguments. Some of you, no matter how skeptical, have to admit that they show some merit, and there just Might be something this Kanosis thing.
Glad to see at least in your own mind you have succeeded in convincing your self to give Kanosis a try.

Due to the power of Pyramid marketing there would be little I can say to put you off and hopefully you now are at least a bit better informed about what you are geting into and the expectations you have should be a little lower than someone joining who has not visited this forum and is just joining because of the marketing hype.

Please give us a review of coil when you have had chance to fully get to grips with it, and if you have any problems with it Jims your man to consult.

[logicRules]

Originally posted by maptient24
Uhm... just because you couldn't find me by typing mpatient24 into the sign up page doesn't mean I'm not a member. It just means that isn't my user id. In fact... take off the 24 and you should find me.
You missunderstood me mpatient24, I was responding to your earlier question as to if I was a member. OOPS!!

[mpatient24]

You missunderstood me mpatient24, I was responding to your earlier question as to if I was a member. OOPS!!

Oops... I did misunderstand. Sorry.

[mpatient24]

Glad to see at least in your own mind you have succeeded in convincing your self to give Kanosis a try.

Due to the power of Pyramid marketing there would be little I can say to put you off and hopefully you now are at least a bit better informed about what you are geting into and the expectations you have should be a little lower than someone joining who has not visited this forum and is just joining because of the marketing hype.

Please give us a review of coil when you have had chance to fully get to grips with it, and if you have any problems with it Jims your man to consult.

I am informed. To be honest I haven't seen any of the marketing hype. I was told about it a week ago by a friend I've worked with for over a year. I'd never heard of it prior to that, and he didn't hard sell it in any way. Just told me about COIL, and the Kanosis community and then talked about the business op. He answered all my questions, and when I started researching it was when found this forum.

I will absolutely give a review but it may take me a few days to thoroughly play with everything in the software. I can already say that there are things that could be improved on, but overall, my initial impression is that it needs some tweaking but has great potential. It could be a useful software to some. Especially the less computer savvy, because it is everything together. Also to college students, and small businesses. I haven't sold the product to anybody, or begun my matrix. I won't until I'm comfortable with the software. I prefer to believe in something that I sell to my friends and family.

[Ferret]

@ mpatient24
As you are a member now....
Can you see how many members Kanosis currently has?
What other info do you get access to?

[mpatient24]

@ mpatient24
As you are a member now....
Can you see how many members Kanosis currently has?
What other info do you get access to?

Today's Sign-Ups: 55
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4046

I pasted that directly off the main page. You see your complete matrix, and any commissions. Mine are all Zero right now. Wait... I'll paste that.

Total Owed Commission: $0.00
Total Commission: $0.00
Year's Commission: $0.00
Month's Commission: $0.00
Potential Monthly Recurring Income(Missed): $0.00
Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 55
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4046

You can view your matrix in your own matrix model. You have access to news, COIL, the community, email, storage, etc. It's kinda neat but I haven't explored it all yet.

[Ferret]

You can view your matrix in your own matrix model. You have access to news, COIL, the community, email, storage, etc. It's kinda neat but I haven't explored it all yet.
Ok, what is the news?

When are they updating their website?

When are they going public?

etc?????

you are the only insider that is talking here.............................................

[mpatient24]

Ok, what is the news?

When are they updating their website?

When are they going public?

etc?????

you are the only insider that is talking here.............................................

Okay.. I will paste from the news article.

"I would like to begin this communication by thanking all of you for the great work you have all done under difficult circumstances. I would also thank you for your patience through the challenges of launching a global internet company.
In this update I will outline the current status of Kanosis and our growth schedule over the coming months.

Firstly I must ask for your continued co-operation and patience. It was our intention to be ready for the official launch of Kanosis by now. Due to a few necessary infrastructure changes and production delays on the movie it has become necessary to extend the pre launch period until May 2nd.

The following is what you can expect from Kanosis over the next 10 weeks

WEBSITE

The new website will be up and operational by end of March. Included on the site will be new business presentations incorporating the new Artificial Intelligence technology. While this is not going to be as powerful, from a marketing perspective, the movie will be a very effective asset in your marketing efforts leading up to the launch. The site will be a multi language site and we hope to introduce one new language a week once we launch the site.

CORPORATE INFASTRUCTURE

Kanosis has secured premises in Cyprus and Newport Beach, California.
We have a five story building in Cyprus that is currently being fitted out and we should take possession in mid March. In addition Kanosis has new offices in Newport Beach where some of the Global management team will be located.
Kanosis has also registered a US company, Kanosis Inc., which is a subsidiary of the Cyprus Corporation.

SUPPORT

One of our biggest challenges currently is the level of support we have been able to offer. While we have been able to satisfy 95 % of the enquiries in a timely manner we want to ensure that all questions are dealt with quickly and efficiently.

We are now implementing a Global help desk solution. While this will take approx 6 weeks to fully implement, we now have full time help desk staff.
The final help desk solution will be a combination of Staff and Artificial Intelligence servers. In addition, we have already set up a Google group to assist you with the more common enquiries.

COIL

Currently extensive work is being done on the Coil interface. This work will provide an interface that will be more user friendly and intuitive for the consumer market. Video tutorials are being prepared to guide you through COIL’s expansive functionality, and to allow you in minutes to do a number of useful things that will make the wait worthwhile!

UNICLEAR and COMMISSIONS

Uniclear has over the past few weeks experienced some technical issues that have resulted in interruptions to their services. These issues arose for a number of reasons. One of these has been the infrastructure changes Uniclear have been making to cope with expected growth from Kanosis. These changes have now been completed and further interruptions are not expected.

As a “thank you” for your patience in the early stage of our growth, the Kanosis management team has decided to pay commissions to all members. What we mean by this is you will be paid commissions even if the positions were not qualified. Please note that this is a ONE TIME event and will NOT be repeated.
These payments have now been made to all people who have Uniclear accounts.
If you have not yet opened an account please do so using the instructions posted in the members area on the website.

Debit cards have now been dispatched to those who have already established their accounts.

DATABASE

On the advice of our Technical Evangelist the decision was made to change from a SQL Server database to an Oracle database. The primary reason for this was based on the potential of the business reaching tens of millions of subscribers. This was a difficult decision due to the delays this has caused in our official launch and because of the high cost. The Oracle infrastructure is a large capital investment for a company still in start up. The Database changeover is expected to take approximately 8 weeks."

I certainly don't think that Kanosis is trying to hide anything. But like all companies, there is information available to employees or members, that is not available to the public.

[Looking]

M......24 or M25..........road to :flame: hell.........who's giving the directions?

I have my sights focused firmly upon your seemingly honest typed exspouses. Who are you prostituting your words to. Are you planting PR. I rememember Jim pointing out his PR consultants were about to be employed 10-12 days ago. Perhaps you innocently don't realise that yet?
For someone who claims to be anonymously legitimite your starting to rile my instincts with your back and forth, seemingly innocent & blindingly incessant steering of this forums debate. I am going to log the time you have been spending.
You even gianed Kanosis Wholy engineered PR accolade award for yeserday. With further engineering help your "buisness" shouldn't fail. .. oops correction, Kanosis buisness.
Please forgive me for being so questioning of your anonymity.
However logic is logic and you are dangling to many unlikely thoughts together that do not naturely compute or equate without conflicts.
Have you got a split personality 24 by 7?
Or are you legitimately working hard at being a destingwished Kanosisian?

This is a debate and I would expect to see a lot more in the way of unbalanced challanges.
Given that at least 4000 people have signed up to Coil and around 8000 have veiwed this forum and only 15 people have consistanly contributed the figures don,t add up. Kanosisians its time to speak up/Down. Chance your logic.
You don't have to take the credit personaly though some one else might.

Perhaps Arzel can work out the statistical chances/ratios of such a low Voiceing, particularly when nobody is obviously identifiable other than Jim and oh yes a Steve Whittington.
Maybee you.... suspect Kanosis has a better picture than many of you would like to remember.
Why?


Naturely I would by incoilnation expect to see more why's than yeh's.
Give me your picture KNOW!!!!!
Take your soul chance Know.
You can trust me not to charge $59 to Look at your mugshott. :evil:
Though I might charge upto $180 extra if you persist on presenting it another 10 months. :eek:


You have just read an alternative advert.
:nono: Warning disclaimer
note you are souly responsible for what you choose to read and beleive.

[JimSouthworth]

Looking,
You of all the critics here on MW are so far the most consistent in being not a skeptic but a complete Jerk. Because some people are willing to spend their time giving fair, unbiased and accurate answers that just don't happen to agree with your very small paranoid fantasy world, and then you decide it is time to attack them for your personal entertainment purposes. The rest of the team here at MW have been willing to maintain solid skeptical intelligent dialog in the search of facts and truth. You now have now decided to start attacking the one resource that you have, the independent new users who walks up and gives her honest opinions. I know you irritated and agitated me the other night sufficiently that I unloaded then, first in private, then when you persisted yesterday.... I did it slightly in public by comparison.... you know, you aren't paranoid, with your actions just because you THINK someone is out to get you, with your lack of mastery of the English language and attitude, people ARE out to get you!!!! this is the last post I will address anything that you utter, For the rest of the MW team, I will as I have continue to supply honest and factual answers if for no other reason than to not create a "self fulfilling prophesy"..... OBTW, “Looking” I believe you owe mpatient24 an apology, but I’m sure you won’t even understand why…. I hope she and all the others continue to give their honest answers… ASK any of them if in the private messages or phone calls they have sent me first, have I ever tried to flavor or control ANYTHING except to encourage them to be honest and if necessary avoid jerks like you.

[sisco50]

There is a big difference between a skeptic and a jerk. No doubt we have our fair share of them. :(

[Webwatch]

Mpatient:
Thanks for your information about Kanosis. Please keep us up to date with any new developments.

Regarding news articles from Kanosis-They are always welcome.
I'm sure you will do this but please check with Kanosis that it is OK to post them here just in case there maybe information that is only intended for current members.
I'm still a sceptic (or jerk, as we all can be at times).

[JimSouthworth]

<Snip> I'm still a skeptic (or jerk, as we all can be at times).
I take serious difference with you on that statement you are absolutey WRONG... You are an informed logical inquisitive skeptic, YES, but not a disrespectful jerk..... :)

Debate does NOT require implication of malicious intent or any personal attack. Differences of opinion should be expressed, but not with a personal edge to them and you have never done that and others have. If I was hiding behind a pseudonym or even a fake ID, almost anything goes, but when I have felt it appropriate to give full disclosure and all contact info to you guys, I should get at least a little something for that. Enough said on this… back to the work of getting what I’m paid to do, get installed and fully launched…..

[mpatient24]

Mpatient:
Thanks for your information about Kanosis. Please keep us up to date with any new developments.
I certainly will for the benefit of those that have kept this forum in a debate like fashion, that are truly interested in seeing the information as I find it out, and that though they have differing opinions they continue to show respect for eachother.

Regarding news articles from Kanosis-They are always welcome.
I'm sure you will do this but please check with Kanosis that it is OK to post them here just in case there maybe information that is only intended for current members. I'm still a sceptic (or jerk, as we all can be at times). WW, I haven't noticing you being a jerk in comparison to some others... You have not shown disrespect as...One imparticular that could benefit from a trip back to school, and dare I say... a dictionary? A skeptic is a skeptic, and I have admitted to being skeptical myself. That has not changed. Please don't "defend" the jerk in question to me by comparing him to yourself, as ignorance, or ineptitude I suspect is his only defense.

It was specifically requested that I post a news article from the member area on Kanosis to this forum. I did so because I was under the impression that everybody here wanted somebody "on the inside" willing to give them information. I was asked and I complied. I didn't check with Kanosis first on that, and couldn't see anything they could legitimately object to the public knowing. I'm sure somebody from Kanosis would tell me if I inadvertently paste something I shouldn't. As we know, they are reading this forum. I am in no way affilliated with Kanosis with the exception that I've just joined them as a member, and I certainly don't do their PR. I simply enjoy a good debate.

If somebody would like my Mugshot so to speak... show some respect and perhaps ask me. I am a real person with nothing to hide. In fact the avatar I'm using in this forum IS my picture... and in case somebody here doesn't recognize a Dolphin... that would be Donna. I'm the other one. :p

As for the disrespectful post in question, I prefer not to respond directly. I'm afraid that do so would bring me down to his level and that is not something I am willing to do. So, JimS I thank you for putting into words, that for which I may have struggled to remain tactful. I thank you for your decorum.

[Webwatch]

Right so back on track if possible.
It's been a while but I think the main debate revolves around a couple of key factors these are:
1. Is Kanosis a Pyramid Scheme disguising itself as an MLM.
2. Is Kanosis a true MLM that bears a striking resemblance to a Pyramid Scheme.
3. Is selling coil to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme
4. Can a customer buy coil without joining the matrix

There are other arguments regarding Coil and its usefullness compared to other software on the market but there are others better informed than me to debate this.

My views are pretty clear and I wont bore you all by reiterating them

Any more arguments I have missed please post them.

[concerned]

Right so back on track if possible.
It's been a while but I think the main debate revolves around a couple of key factors these are:
1. Is Kanosis a Pyramid Scheme disguising itself as an MLM.
2. Is Kanosis a true MLM that bears a striking resemblance to a Pyramid Scheme.
3. Is selling coil to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme
4. Can a customer buy coil without joining the matrix

There are other arguments regarding Coil and its usefullness compared to other software on the market but there are others better informed than me to debate this.

My views are pretty clear and I wont bore you all by reiterating them

Any more arguments I have missed please post them.

Here are a few more to add.

5. Why is Kanosis charging for beta versions?

6. Why is there a lack of documentation on the Coil software?

7. Can I buy a full license of Coil and install it on my own server?

[JimSouthworth]

Right so back on track if possible.
It's been a while but I think the main debate revolves around a couple of key factors these are:
1. Is Kanosis a Pyramid Scheme disguising itself as an MLM.
2. Is Kanosis a true MLM that bears a striking resemblance to a Pyramid Scheme.
3. Is selling coil to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme
4. Can a customer buy coil without joining the matrix.As you requested I am only addressing the completeness/accuracy of the subjects of discussion/debate not those issues themselves in this post...
Questions/Issues 1 & 2 stand as you have them and we probably have to discuss them together. However 3 & 4 are wrong and actually are the source of much of the confusions I believe.3. Is selling coil to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme ?
4. Can a customer buy coil without joining the matrix? In both of these cases first of all, Kanosis is not selling Coil.... it is selling a service offering that at the moment only includes Coil as part of the user interface and several other software products that have been heavily customized and integrated to create the Kanosis service product. Now that being said, #3 should read

3. Is selling the services of Kanosis to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme?

and likewise #4 should now read

4. Can a customer buy Kanosis services without joining the matrix?
and
4.5 Can a customer license Coil for use on his own medium to large enterprise infrastructure and internal corporate network?

Does the above make sense finally ??? By the way, the enterprise version of Coil will still require a subset of the Server Cluster Architecture that has been actually jointly developed and paid for by the software company that owns Coil as well as Kanosis investors. Coil is not a software package that stands by itself for a single PC environment. It is designed to do a whole office wide implementation only. As only an example, MS Exchange server is relatively expensive to buy and turn up to do email and calendar functions and definitely not used for small single person offices. The time accounting and project management facilities of Coil normally would require an installed base of a couple of dozen lawyers in a law firm to justify the infrastructure and get a reasonable return on investment. Especially when you throw in the professional services time billing systems interfaces. As a side note, some aspects of Coil when used effectively work best with Database systems like Oracle which cost commercially around $100K per server CPU that you install it on.

[mpatient24]

Right so back on track if possible.
It's been a while but I think the main debate revolves around a couple of key factors these are:
1. Is Kanosis a Pyramid Scheme disguising itself as an MLM.
2. Is Kanosis a true MLM that bears a striking resemblance to a Pyramid Scheme.
3. Is selling coil to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme
4. Can a customer buy coil without joining the matrix

There are other arguments regarding Coil and its usefullness compared to other software on the market but there are others better informed than me to debate this.

My views are pretty clear and I wont bore you all by reiterating them

Any more arguments I have missed please post them. Though I don't believe that Kanosis is a pyramid scheme, those are good questions and I agree that it is the main concern to those considering. A customer CAN buy the service to use coil without joining the business opportunity. They would hold a spot in the matrix, and commission would be paid to their upline one time. After that, they sit in their spot on the matrix with nobody below them, the matrix on that end doesn't grow, and they are paying for their use of COIL. So I can't say the answer to number 4 is yes, but I can't just say it's a No either. That one is kind of a gray area I think.

I think that only time is going to prove any points for either side of this argument. We're going to have to wait and see what happens with Kanosis. I think it may be a good opportunity.

[Webwatch]

Questions/Issues 1 & 2 stand as you have them and we probably have to discuss them together. However 3 & 4 are wrong and actually are the source of much of the confusions I believe. In both of these cases first of all, Kanosis is not selling Coil.... it is selling a service offering that at the moment only includes Coil as part of the user interface and several other software products that have been heavily customized and integrated to create the Kanosis service product. Now that being said, #3 should read

3. Is selling the services of Kanosis to friends and family the same as recruiting members to a Pyramid Scheme?

and likewise #4 should now read

4. Can a customer buy Kanosis services without joining the matrix?
and
4.5 Can a customer license Coil for use on his own medium to large enterprise infrastructure and internal corporate network?

In order to progress the discussion I will conceed the change to the wording of the questions above.

I agree with Mpatient that the final solution to some of the questions will only truly be established over time.
But as a starting point can we agree that in orer to join Kanosis you must be referred by another member. Also at present new members have to pay $59 this includes 2 months use of Kanosis services by using Coil. Each month a member must reach the $22 commision value which at the moment can only be acheived by purchasing a months use of Coil. Over time if or when new services and or products are released the purchase of coil may not be neccesary as long as the minimum $22 commision value is acheived which enables the receipt of commisions from the downline providing members in that downline have spent $22 minimum commision value on products/services themselves in order to generate that commision.

I've tried to word this carefully in order to establish a few key points on how Kanosis stands at the moment. I will not make any attempt at trickery in order to gleam an answer to strengthen my argument.

I also consider my first two questions although a bit ambiguos in nature are worth carefull consideration by any new members who are thinking of joining Kanosis and not base their decision solely on the prospect of acheiving financial independance but also the usefullness of the software/Kanosis Community and the services on offer.

To be fair to Jim and any members of Kanosis I have no experience of Coil so any mention I make of Coil should be treated as an assumption and not based on any use I have had of it.

The Pyramid Scheme aspect is my main argument and surely by now the Leaders of Kanosis must have considered making just paying $15 an option when joining up in order for new members to take part in the community aspect of Kanosis and comment or ask questions via the internal Kanosis forum which I presume exists and is accesible even if Coil is not installed.

Finally does Kanosis have any features that are accesible to members if they decide to stop their subscription to coil after the 2 months prepay period has elapsed. i.e. what benefits do you get for just paying $15 per year.

[JimSouthworth]

The Pyramid Scheme aspect is my main argument and surely by now the Leaders of Kanosis must have considered making just paying $15 an option when joining up in order for new members to take part in the community aspect of Kanosis and comment or ask questions via the internal Kanosis forum which I presume exists and is accesible even if Coil is not installed.As of our launch on May 1st, there will be a $15/month service only offering, there will also be some new higher priced monthly services not far behind it as well.
Finally does Kanosis have any features that are accesible to members if they decide to stop their subscription to coil after the 2 months prepay period has elapsed. i.e. what benefits do you get for just paying $15 per year.Yes, there will Kanosis community only features that will in many ways be equivalent to comparable "community" style services and the additional integrated feautures that will easily justify the value of maintaining an on-going membership with Kanosis. AND to answer another post in this same document....
5. Why is Kanosis charging for beta versions?Because we are charging for the use on non-bete products such as Coil which even under our licensing agreement cost Kanosis usage fees. Coil is not beta as several other software modules integrated into Kanosis are not beta as well.... it is their integration into the Kanosis service offering that is Beta.
6. Why is there a lack of documentation on the Coil software? because the enterprise versions of Coil are not the final "look" and "feel" of the version that has been being developed for final release with the Kanosis service offering by launch date. The cosmetics and the context sensitive help facilities are being developed as we speak... there is a new version of the Kanosis product being readied now for near future release.
7. Can I buy a full license of Coil and install it on my own server?. Eventually additional copies of Coil will be sold separately again to probably large enterprise customers. In the mean time Kanosis has bought exclusive distribution rights to Coil. Kanosis is not anxious to create an environment that cold spawn a functionally competitive system from another Coil licensee, so we paid for that right of exclusivity for a defined period of time. But besides, as I mentioned a couple of hours ago in my previous post, it will usually take a pretty big customer to justify the infrastruct and other software to gain a reasonable ROI (Return On Investment).

[Arzel]

5. Why is Kanosis charging for beta versions?

Because we are charging for the use on non-bete products such as Coil which even under our licensing agreement cost Kanosis usage fees. Coil is not beta as several other software modules integrated into Kanosis are not beta as well.... it is their integration into the Kanosis service offering that is Beta.


6. Why is there a lack of documentation on the Coil software?

because the enterprise versions of Coil are not the final "look" and "feel" of the version that has been being developed for final release with the Kanosis service offering by launch date. The cosmetics and the context sensitive help facilities are being developed as we speak... there is a new version of the Kanosis product being readied now for near future release.


7. Can I buy a full license of Coil and install it on my own server?.

Eventually additional copies of Coil will be sold separately again to probably large enterprise customers. In the mean time Kanosis has bought exclusive distribution rights to Coil. Kanosis is not anxious to create an environment that cold spawn a functionally competitive system from another Coil licensee, so we paid for that right of exclusivity for a defined period of time. But besides, as I mentioned a couple of hours ago in my previous post, it will usually take a pretty big customer to justify the infrastruct and other software to gain a reasonable ROI (Return On Investment).

Jim I was reading through these questions and your response, and I have to say It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, perhaps you can further enlighten me.

You state the reason for charging for a beta product is because you are actually charging for COIL which is not a beta product, but you still have to pay a Kanosis membership fee which is your beta product, if I am to understand you correctly.

Yet the reason for a lack of documentation is because the COIL being used is not the final version which will be used after the launch. Which makes me have to ask why implement a version of COIL which will not be used in the future? It certainly seems like the current version is a beta, and from some of the other forums I have read, it needs to have things worked out, which to me equals a beta product.

Also, you have mentioned that one of the benefits of Kanosis is the security aspect of the service, and yet your reason for not selling individual copies of COIL at this time is because you do not wish to create an environment of competition at this stage. But one of your biggest selling points is the security of Kanosis, so why should it matter if someone else sells COIL?

[mpatient24]

Jim I was reading through these questions and your response, and I have to say It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, perhaps you can further enlighten me.

You state the reason for charging for a beta product is because you are actually charging for COIL which is not a beta product, but you still have to pay a Kanosis membership fee which is your beta product, if I am to understand you correctly.
This is the way that I'm interpreting this. The service that Kanosis provides is a global community much like myspace.com or livejournal.com that is integrated with COIL, a business software that's interface is still being improved upon. The Beta product is the introduction of COIL into the community, not COIL itself. The monthly charge is for the service of the two combined, as well as the other products that will later be available for subscription.

[mpatient24]

Also, you have mentioned that one of the benefits of Kanosis is the security aspect of the service, and yet your reason for not selling individual copies of COIL at this time is because you do not wish to create an environment of competition at this stage. But one of your biggest selling points is the security of Kanosis, so why should it matter if someone else sells COIL?
I'd guess it would matter, because why would Kanosis want to be in competition with themselves. That wouldn't be a good business decision. Granted...they may have better security at Kanosis than somebody else that would be selling the product. They choose to sell it as a whole package.

[mpatient24]

Hopefully Jim doesn't get upset about this one, but I'm pasting his bio from his community web page within Kanosis in case anybody is interested.

"James B. Southworth – CHS-V (Certified Homeland Security level 5)
Chief Technology Evangelist, Kanosis Ltd.
In his thirty plus years in the telecommunications and computing industries, Jim has held technology management positions with such key established industry players as Concentric Network/XO Communications where he was Chief Access Technologist with the formal title of Sr. Director Advanced Networks Services and Technologies. His professional experience spans everything from operating system software and computer security to high-speed digital transmission facilities both for the telephony network and the data world. In this role, he also functioned as the security officer for the company.
Jim is recognized internationally as an industry expert in various Internet access technologies such as DSL, two-way satellite and wireless, as well as in leading edge security and enterprise applications. He has also been in several senior high security consultative roles including to US federal law-enforcement in the Washington, DC area as well as for Interpol in Lyon, France, both involving Internet security and anti-terrorist technologies and the Virtual Private Networks that support them.

Jim has advised some of the most innovative and leading edge entrepreneurial ventures in the industry today, serving on various Board of Directors and Advisory Boards interfacing with management and Venture Capital firms. He is also active in industry standards-setting including serving on the Board of Directors of the DSL Forum for four years. He is a frequent chairman, speaker or moderator at tradeshows, conferences, and summits. A respected Internet technologist in all the emerging technologies such as VoIP (Voice and Video over IP), he is known for his visionary technology leadership and strategy and has been recognized in EE Times as one of the “architects of the next generation of the Internet”.
http://www.eetimes.com/special/special_issues/2000/architects/default.html
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20000926S0055 "

[ycchen]

Jim is the brandname for kanosis, and the only one unfortunately. We are still waiting for the confirmation of Steve Whittington's previous experience with herbalife from him directly or people who have a chance to talk to him.

We also wish the marketing executive, presumably, Alistair Kildey to explain why he decides to use the controversial pyramid style structure of recruiting.

Can anyone find or post Alistair Kildey and Stephan Whittington's resume which suppose to be as impressive if not more than Jim Southworth?

[mpatient24]

Jim is the brandname for kanosis, and the only one unfortunately. We are still waiting for the confirmation of Steve Whittington's previous experience with herbalife from him directly or people who have a chance to talk to him.

We also wish the marketing executive, presumably, Alistair Kildey to explain why he decides to use the controversial pyramid style structure of recruiting.

Can anyone find or post Alistair Kildey and Stephan Whittington's resume which suppose to be as impressive if not more than Jim Southworth?

I just checked and, neither Alistair Kildey or Stephen Whittington have a bio yet. I will keep checking for one, and update you if it is posted.

[mpatient24]

Jim is the brandname for kanosis, and the only one unfortunately. We are still waiting for the confirmation of Steve Whittington's previous experience with herbalife from him directly or people who have a chance to talk to him.

I will say that I don't think that Jim is the brand name at all. He isn't even well known to the friend that introduced me to Kanosis. He's not really mentioned much on the conference calls, and I haven't heard him speak in one. I don't think that's his position. We've just gotten to know him better through this forum and to associate him with Kanosis. He initiated getting his bio on his web page in the member area. In fact, you have to add him as a friend or have a message posted by him to find his page. At least from what I could tell.

As far as the Herbalife guy... what happened to the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington? He never came back and posted anymore.

[ycchen]

I will say that I don't think that Jim is the brand name at all. He isn't even well known to the friend that introduced me to Kanosis. He's not really mentioned much on the conference calls, and I haven't heard him speak in one. I don't think that's his position. We've just gotten to know him better through this forum and to associate him with Kanosis. He initiated getting his bio on his web page in the member area. In fact, you have to add him as a friend or have a message posted by him to find his page. At least from what I could tell.

As far as the Herbalife guy... what happened to the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington? He never came back and posted anymore. If a company claimed to have a product that is 2 year ahead of Microsoft (and the next Google), one question everyone must ask is: who is the Bill Gates of that company?

As for Kanosis, we have failed to find any substantial information about the people who run the company (kanosis still do not have "about us" in their main website, which is very weird; and Axiasoft that licensed coil to Kanosis does not have their own website either ... another weird phenomenon), it is logical to think of Jim Southworth as Bill Gates of Kanosis.

Jim is the CTO (right?) and the main technology architect of coil, he is the only executive who is transparent and outspoken, and we applaud and respect his effort even though we have many disagreement.

We (MWers, kanosis members and prospects) are looking forward for other important executives to "come out" with their legit qualification as a way to assure their clients that kanosis has a product that is 2 years ahead of Microsoft.

For those who know YMMSS / STA, we all know that Kim Iman and his gangs are all con artists who sell their ponzi scheme as the next eBay , next Google and we all know that these people are all criminals who are trying all their might to get your money. Most importantly, they do not care if you use their product (EPC) or not.

[ddbizpro]

Hello all,

Well, this is my first post here. I have been tracking comments for about a week regarding this "Kanonsis" program, or ? whatever one would consider it to be.

I was introduced to Kanosis by a friend that thought initially the application(s) COIL provides would work well on a b2b basis. He is in a field that requires [by law] high securtiy measures to be taken when transferring data via the internet for storage, or any other issues.

Made sense to me when he mentioned it. At that moment this is all that he was aware of regarding Kanosis.

Together, we [and two other associates] attended a "conference call" as recently as last Thursday evening.

After the call we conducted our own conference call with apx. five (5) of us online to discuss what we had heard, what are thoughts were, and questions we all had.

We had to invite an individual who had already signed up, and was involved to the extent, that we thought he would have "all the answers"...NOT!

He, I believe, was [and is] sincere about what he knows (or thinks he knows) about all this, but I believe that he is "blinded by the light".

What is humourous, is that while I was on the call, I was surfing and found Matixwatch....so, while the call was going on, I was "multi-tasking" and found more information about Kanosis here than what they were able to offer on the call, or for that matter on their website.

Therefore, after the call when we conducted our own conference, I felt that I was the "expert"...LOL...little did they know I was only reading what Ferret had posted on March 1st 2006 at -1:05 AM..Thanks Ferret, good job.

Well, I have been informed, and entertained (to say the least) reading everyone's posts here, and think what is going on is very good. All the comments (at least most, some we can do without), expressions, etc. All in all, informative and helpful for those that are not certain what decision to make with getting involved with Kanosis.

As for me, I've been around too long and have seen too much to just "take the plunge", no matter what amount is being asked for....a few bucks or a few thousand. At some point in life we need to really assess what the underlining motives/reasons are of those that are the "promoters" "founders" "directors" "leaders", etc......try to figure out, what they are really trying to accomplish, what is their mission, and tell ourselves, "would I offer this to my best friend, my mother, my father"...etc. and know WITHOUT a shadow of a doubt that what they recieve will have a "real" benefit attached to it. Not just a "maybe" not just find a way to convince someone of the "real benefits". I think if one can answer themselves honestly, by stripping away the "potential gain" of making the bucks, everyone wins. If on the other hand, it's the hope of realizing "gain" from ones involvement by getting others to get "involved", over and above the value of the product or services, it's time to rethink our objective(s).

I will never fault anyone for wanting to "make money" on a business venture, but when a company is running the course as is Kanosis, on thin ice, meaning things are a bit too vague when it comes to many things, this should be a warning sign, if not to stop, at least to take a "wait and see" position. If it's so good today, it'll be as good or better tomorrow and in the future.

I've copied an exerpt from an article I located from the "Times Online" in the U.K., below for all to read and see that countries look adversely at companies such as Kanonsis that are using a Matrix business platform to move product and or services.

"The key to a successful scam is to dupe as many people as possible for relatively small sums. Many victims let their embarrassment overrule their sense of outrage and fail to report the fraud.

Matrix schemes, the heirs to pyramid schemes, fall into this category, conning small amounts out of large numbers of people. In a traditional pyramid scheme, cash works its way up from the bottom of the pyramid as new members join. The details of matrix schemes vary, but typically consumers are persuaded to buy low-cost items, such as mobile phone ringtones, for an inflated price of about £20. After persuading their friends to sign up, they are then put on a waiting list for a “ free gift”. These gifts are usually desirable electronic products, such as iPods, which members will receive when they reach the top of the list. Like a pyramid scheme, however, only those at the very top of the list are ever likely to receive the promised booty.

The OFT has already closed down three internet-based matrix schemes, which between them duped an estimated 25,000 victims in the UK. Mr Lambourne says: “Matrix schemes are an emerging problem area and are particularly targeting young people.”

One of the problems faced by the OFT is that these scams often operate across borders, which makes them harder to trace. Trails often lead to PO boxes, anonymous addresses and prepaid mobile phones.

The OFT urges victims to get in touch, but it is unable to recover cash handed over to fraudsters. So take care. “If anyone asks for money upfront, you should immediately be suspicious,” Mr Lambourne says."

For more on consumer affairs visit www.timesonline.co.uk/consumeraffairs

[concerned]

Thanks for coming to our forum. Your post was a good read. There is something that struck me as odd though.

I was introduced to Kanosis by a friend that thought initially the application(s) COIL provides would work well on a b2b basis. He is in a field that requires [by law] high securtiy measures to be taken when transferring data via the internet for storage, or any other issues.

This quote struck me as very odd, because if this person's job requires HIGH SECURITY by law, why did they not ask questions about the Kanosis security BEFORE pointing his friends to it? That does not sound like someone that is required by law to make things secure, and allowing another company to house data DEFINATELY does not sound like a solution they should be looking for.

Otherwise, great post. I found some interesting contradictions in posts made by Jim. You might be interested in reading them. They are on a new post I just started. I don't know if Jim will read them, because I don't think he has looked at any other threads except this one, but hopefully he will read it.

[Webwatch]

Jim,
I have a quick question do you have any information on a Mr Steve Van Zutphen who is supposed to be the creator of coil and one of the other Kanosis founders.

Sorry if this has already been answered and Ive missed it.

[mpatient24]

The new Kanosis website is up in case some of you haven't seen it. It's a definite improvement and does have more info on it. Still doesn't have an About Us Page with the top guys on it though.

[Ferret]

The new Kanosis website is up in case some of you haven't seen it. It's a definite improvement and does have more info on it. Still doesn't have an About Us Page with the top guys on it though.
So how many members today?

did they hit the statistically important 5,000 yet?

You are supposed to be keeping us up to date dolphin girl ;)

[JimSouthworth]

Jim,
I have a quick question do you have any information on a Mr Steve Van Zutphen who is supposed to be the creator of coil and one of the other Kanosis founders.

Sorry if this has already been answered and Ive missed it.

Webwatch,
Without a long search back through the many many hours of posts, I'm not sure whether it went out in a public or private post....

Steve is an American who is married to a Cypriot wife and live primarily in Cyprus. He is a graduate lawyer with full training and several years experience as a trial attorney. Thus the reason that Coil as originally developed has a bunch or professional time acconting project management and calendar functions built in. He is the principal management of Axisoft and a Board member of Kanosis. Steve has a substantial software background that pre-dates his legal training as well..... His family (blood relatives) have operated several successful software and consulting companies in the US. He is the original architech of Coil and the services platform that now includes it along with other integrated packages as well from other vendors that all operate on the Java web-start platform from Sun Microsystems.

[concerned]

The new Kanosis website is up in case some of you haven't seen it. It's a definite improvement and does have more info on it. Still doesn't have an About Us Page with the top guys on it though.

I looked at this site. I found the FAQs funny. OOPS, they are under the support button. I guess since FAQs are under the support, then there really is no support on the site.

Here is the one I found entertaining.

Is Kanosis Pyramid selling?


No we do not sell pyramids. They are too heavy and expensive to ship!

It is however a question that comes up as people introduce the concept to others. The first thing you should ask someone who tells you this is a pyramid scam is to have them put it in writing and sign it with their name and address on it. What they are doing is making a legal claim that amounts to slander. You could ask them to draw the shape of any corporation or even the US government. They are all shaped like a pyramid. The best explanation for those that are actually interested is as follows:



Sorry

First of all, you cannot trample all over the United States Constitution. I have the freedom of speech to say whatever I want. Secondly, getting a written statement is not slander, it is libel. There is a difference. Third, you cannot take any legal action against such a statement unless you can prove that there were damages (such as lost business) as a result of that statement.

So, if I ask one of the people selling Kanosis if it is a pyramid scheme, you want them to have me sign a statement? And if I do, how did you lose business because of my question?

[JimSouthworth]

The new Kanosis website is up in case some of you haven't seen it. It's a definite improvement and does have more info on it. Still doesn't have an About Us Page with the top guys on it though.

There will be additional new web-pages being added almost every other day for several weeks moving forward..... addresses and contact info is now locked down, Bio's and resumes, much to be expanded Q&A, training "flash" movies etc.

And if Arzel will notice, a lot of the hype he took exception to has been cleaned up.

[Webwatch]

Thanks Jim
The new site looks a vast improvement on the old one.
I think i may have a better suggestion for the first part of the FAQ that mentions selling Pyramids I will try and post it tomorrow if I get chance.
This whole Kanosis discussion has caused me to fall behind on my proper job so my presence here maybe intermittent for a while.
Horay I hear you all cheer :applause:

[mpatient24]

So how many members today?

did they hit the statistically important 5,000 yet?

You are supposed to be keeping us up to date dolphin girl ;)

Sorry, sorry... Am I updating the numbers daily??

They haven't hit 5k yet.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 63
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4168

I will update more on some of the COIL changes I was notified about, but haven't yet checked out and stuff later. We're heading to dinner. :applause:

[denl]

"As far as the Herbalife guy... what happened to the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington? He never came back and posted anymore."

I am the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington. I did email him and he was going to get back to me with more information, but that was a few weeks ago. I have not heard anything from him????
Denis

[Ferret]

The Kanosis marketing model is a hybrid of recent Internet success stories such as Google, Skype and My Space and the 55-year-old network marketing industry.

Most Internet industry analysts are predicting the next success stories on the Internet will be SAAS companies, i.e. companies selling Software As A Service.

The Kanosis marketing model has enhanced the viral marketing techniques that have created the billion dollar companies mentioned above. We did this by adding a simple payment matrix similar to some used in the network marketing industry.

It is true that the network marketing industry has not always enjoyed the best reputation yet it currently sells over 140 Billion USD of product a year and still rapidly growing.

While most MLM companies utilize the Internet to process orders and enable global distribution, no MLM company has taken full advantage of the marketing power of the Internet, not in the way that Internet companies have.
I thought you said you had toned the hype down?
You are Still using the "Google, Skype and My Space" comparisons

If Google decides to compete with kanosis they will crush you like a bug and their service will be FREE
Google will NOT be using a Matrix Scheme to sell their service
I just read there was a leaked story about Google offering online space to upload your hard drive but I can't find it now :confused:

I can't believe you are saying "viral marketing techniques"
Way to go.......you guys need to hire me to clean your act up lol

PS: I presume you registered kanosis.net.......who was the genius who forgot to register kanosis.org?

[mpatient24]

There will be additional new web-pages being added almost every other day for several weeks moving forward..... addresses and contact info is now locked down, Bio's and resumes, much to be expanded Q&A, training "flash" movies etc.

And if Arzel will notice, a lot of the hype he took exception to has been cleaned up.

I can't wait to see the new additions. I know many people are interested to see what that information will be.

[Arzel]

There will be additional new web-pages being added almost every other day for several weeks moving forward..... addresses and contact info is now locked down, Bio's and resumes, much to be expanded Q&A, training "flash" movies etc.

And if Arzel will notice, a lot of the hype he took exception to has been cleaned up.

Yes, I am quite pleased with the movement of the site, but I do have a couple of problems still.

This from the FAQ still really bothers me.

Is Kanosis Pyramid selling?


No we do not sell pyramids. They are too heavy and expensive to ship!

It is however a question that comes up as people introduce the concept to others. The first thing you should ask someone who tells you this is a pyramid scam is to have them put it in writing and sign it with their name and address on it. What they are doing is making a legal claim that amounts to slander. You could ask them to draw the shape of any corporation or even the US government. They are all shaped like a pyramid. The best explanation for those that are actually interested is as follows:


It bothers me for two reasons.

1. The only businesses which seem to make this statment are those that actually are running a pryamid scheme.

2. It sounds slightly threatning, and is the primary reason why I am very reluctant to call Jim and discuss anything. Call me paranoid if you would like, but I would not like to be called on something I have said in this forum.

I would still like to see a statement which indicates that most people will not earn more money that it costs to be a member.

I would still like to see actual physical contact information for the company and a information regarding the key people (like bio's for the board of directors and stuff like that). Jim has said this is coming, and I say the sooner the better.

The following statements also bother me as well.

The Kanosis marketing model has enhanced the viral marketing techniques that have created the billion dollar companies mentioned above. We did this by adding a simple payment matrix similar to some used in the network marketing industry.

It is true that the network marketing industry has not always enjoyed the best reputation yet it currently sells over 140 Billion USD of product a year and still rapidly growing.


I agree with Ferret that referrencing a "viral marketing technique" does not sound very positive.

The second part is simply a bad choice of words. The fact that MLM's sell over 140 billion USD a year is not a positive reinforcement of MLM's having a bad repuation.

[Krio]

In the dispute of Kanosis being a scam... I'm leading more towards scam, for the following reason.

Here's a copy of an email I sent to the Kanosis website... I still have not received a response. Judge for yourselves

- - - - copy & paste of email - - - -
I've read your website through-and-through and wanted to see the sign-up process, but realized I needed a username invitee.

So I scoured the net to find one and I came across a user of kanosis of "yllen"..

I did not bother checking out the sign-up page.... because on your support page, your company specifically states:

"....You must also be careful on how you present the product. It is not a get rich quick scheme. It is a legitimate business opportunity and must be presented as such. You must not make financial inducements to people to join the business. For example you cannot say ”if you join this company you will make $30,000 a month”. You can explain the simple marketing plan and show them how much they will get paid on each subscription if they meet the requirements of the plan...."

This user actually adversted
"Amazing new software technology and a business model that shares the economic benefot with each and every participant. Earn up to 32K/month residual. I will personally help you with your two signups. Please go to: Removed Web Link and contact me at yllenRemoved Web Link. Thank you! (Ad#: f7115-44240)"

Does this not go against your company policy? How can anyone join this company if you are unable to control your members?

You can view the members ad posting at:
Removed Web Link

It's listed under "Cyber Nation Protected"


I would like to know how you would be handling this type of enforcement from repeating further.

Cheers,

- - - - - end of copy & paste - - - - -

[nepatriots]

In the dispute of Kanosis being a scam... I'm leading more towards scam, for the following reason.

Sounds like a pretty quick judgment of it being a scam to me. Just because there are a few overzealous members out there doesn’t mean it’s a scam. In my opinion, if you are going to call something a scam you will need more proof than that. I think JimSouthworth said earlier that they are working to control these people.

[Webwatch]

Krio an interesting point and also worth considering why any company would try and distance itself from being a Pyramid Scheme in its pre-launch phase.

The FAQ section of Kanosis is nothing more than an arse covering exercise by its founders based on a position that the company is not in.

As every new member at the moment has to pay $59 to join and then becomes part of the matrix whether they like it or not the whole system is flawed and undeniably points to a Pyramid Scheme set up.

Because of this the whole FAQ section is invalid as at the moment there is no way to just pay $15 and test things out before commiting to a position.

Add to the fact that you have to be referred in order to join, the conclusion of Kanosis at present being nothing more than a Pyramid Scheme is undeniable (by me anyway).

Taking the stance of asking anyone who tells you that Kanosis is a Pyramid Scheme must give their name and address as it amounts to slander is unrealistic and would lose you many friends if this situation arose.

The low initial payment (although $59 to some is a lot of money) adds to the pull of Kanosis coupled with the so called large potential income makes the whole sign up process very attractive.

There is however a way out and as mentioned before my suggestions are.

1. Install the option of just paying $15 to join and then if you chose to promote Kanosis and join the matrix you do so buy paying the neccesary $22 per month and begin a fresh matrix with you at the top and no referrer above you.

2. Kanosis will also need to introduce a range of products and or services which can be sold by members which would not neccesarily mean that the purchaser or end user of these products has to join the pyramid. This is essential for Kanosis to consider itself an MLM

Its worth mentioning that Kanosis (mainly Jim I think) has been active in trying to restrict these over zealous recruitment sites but of course thats like trying to contain a virus when Kanosis knows full well that it is the instigater or patient zero if compared to a viral marketing stratergy.

I may be overlapping a few earlier posts but I wouldn't expect every newcomer to this thread to read all 19 pages although they are quite interesting and amusing in places.

[mpatient24]

Hi again! I haven't had time to really reply to any posts in a few days. My fiance is on vacation so we've been really busy with wedding plans this week. If you go to the new kanosis website, and click on Contact Us you will find it's been updated with the addresses for the California and Cyprus offices. Phone numbers aren't on there yet, but only because they are still working things out with the companies, etc.

I've been assured that bios will come soon.

Today's numbers are:

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 52
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4280

(Just out of curiosity... why do people keep starting new kanosis threads instead of staying in here?")

[concerned]

(Just out of curiosity... why do people keep starting new kanosis threads instead of staying in here?")

One of the rules of this forum is not to take a thread off topic. Sometimes new topics are needed. That is why new threads are started.

[antonroy]

I have some questions, probably addressed to Jim Southworth, but if other has got some answers feel free:)

1. Will it be possible for companies or privat persons to subscribe to the Kanosis network and/or Coil, without being placed in the 'family tree'. Perhaps firms don't want to participate in the opportunity part of Kanosis, but would like to use the software?

2. The additional services that will come in the future - will members get paid commissions on those purchases as well? Or just from the $22 Coil subscription?

3. If big companies or other huge potential customers get's referred to Kanosis and Coil - do they have the opportunity to test drive the system and given the necessary support and guidance in making Coil their 'business center'? I mean - if this is going to be the success you believe it is, what if companies with tens of thousands users get's the product - will they get a VIP custormer support 24/7 or?

4. Will the marketing system for Kanosis include Lead Capture Pages, Sales Letter, Autoresponder etc? Not only the corporate website (of course with you username?) to refer people to?

5. Is it possible to pay for the extra services as well as the Coil product from your account balance? And are you using a third party payment processor or your own?

6. Even though you state you are in front of Microsoft now - how is you R&D plans for the future. Are a lot of funds put into staying in front of MS?

I have not joined, but if the product is as good as you say - I will.

Thanks
Anton

[Webwatch]

2. The additional services that will come in the future - will members get paid commissions on those purchases as well? Or just from the $22 Coil subscription?
Hello anton,
Whatever the future holds for Kanosis their website does state that future products will also earn a commision value and not just coil.

As far as i can tell there payment provider is a third party one at present (Uniclear).

Its best if Jim answers your other questions.

[antonroy]

Thanks Webwatch! Yes, I heared about Uniclear as well.

I'll wait for Jim's reply to the other questions.

Anton

[JimSouthworth]

I have some questions, probably addressed to Jim Southworth, but if other has got some answers feel free:)

1. Will it be possible for companies or private persons to subscribe to the Kanosis network and/or Coil, without being placed in the 'family tree'. Perhaps firms don't want to participate in the opportunity part of Kanosis, but would like to use the software?This is actually very simple, but during the pre-launch phase as we are in now, there is an annual membership only charge that will be available electronically soon, but most likely not for a few weeks.

2. The additional services that will come in the future - will members get paid commissions on those purchases as well? Or just from the $22 Coil subscription?the commision rate of five percent will apply to all new additional cost services..... some of the planned services for businesses have a planning purposes only price tag of around $100 per month, but they will include a whole bunch of bundled personal services.
3. If big companies or other huge potential customers get's referred to Kanosis and Coil - do they have the opportunity to test drive the system and given the necessary support and guidance in making Coil their 'business center'? I mean - if this is going to be the success you believe it is, what if companies with tens of thousands users get's the product - will they get a VIP custormer support 24/7 or?One of the biggest reasons Kanosis chose the MLM business model is that we intend for the up-stream person/persons to assist and participate in the on-going support of the clients below them. Kanosis will supply training aids, documentation, eventually instructors, but this is why over seventy percent of the incoming revenue is spent on marketing through the hierarchical distribution channel
4. Will the marketing system for Kanosis include Lead Capture Pages, Sales Letter, Autoresponder etc? Not only the corporate website (of course with you username?) to refer people to?Our Marketing VP is working on a whole package as you have asked. They have it mostly done, it has been waiting for some of the new Flash movies and the Avatar system to be finished…. But everything is designed to empower the members and facilitate their support.
5. Is it possible to pay for the extra services as well as the Coil product from your account balance? And are you using a third party payment processor or your own? The account balance are funds that can be used for anything the member wishes including specially discounted merchandise from the Kanosis “store” as those items become available this summer. Initially we have a third party relationship with UniClear, but we have also negotiated arrangements with some additional regional international banks to offer both as alternatives as well as to take advantage of the transactions they can speed up that will facilitate timely disbursements to our members.

6. Even though you state you are in front of Microsoft now - how is you R&D plans for the future. Are a lot of funds put into staying in front of MS? Our marketing people definitely know how to play the “Spin”game, but to really answer your question, there are extensive R&D activities already in progress to keep the service offerings “Fresh” and cutting edge, but not “Bleeding” edge with a bunch of new stuff…. For example, we have negotiated contracts with several different content providers for both music and some movies, including international and ethnically diverse versions that can be bought as downloads by our members. Similar arrangements are in progress with some well known software companies as well.

I hope this answers your primary questions[/QUOTE]

[Ferret]

Jim is the brandname for kanosis, and the only one unfortunately. We are still waiting for the confirmation of Steve Whittington's previous experience with herbalife from him directly or people who have a chance to talk to him.

We also wish the marketing executive, presumably, Alistair Kildey to explain why he decides to use the controversial pyramid style structure of recruiting.

Can anyone find or post Alistair Kildey and Stephan Whittington's resume which suppose to be as impressive if not more than Jim Southworth?
Why are we waiting so long to get answers to this?

When are they going to show their faces here?

What are you hiding?

PS: Why is it taking so long to get resumes on the Kanosis website?

[Ferret]

"As far as the Herbalife guy... what happened to the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington? He never came back and posted anymore."

I am the guy who was put in touch with Steve Whittington. I did email him and he was going to get back to me with more information, but that was a few weeks ago I have not heard anything from him????
Denis
Well ,did you hear from anyone yet?

[denl]

yes I got a reply from Steve Whittington as follows:

Hi Denis,
I just found your email as I am almost exclusively using my Kanosis account.

Mr. Michael Diamond, who served as global legal counsel for Herbalife from its formative stage until retiring recently, will be issuing a letter that should completely satisfy your doubts. Once received I will forward it to you.

Regards,
Steve

We will see what is has to say.

[Ferret]

yes I got a reply from Steve Whittington as follows:

Hi Denis,
I just found your email as I am almost exclusively using my Kanosis account.

Mr. Michael Diamond, who served as global legal counsel for Herbalife from its formative stage until retiring recently, will be issuing a letter that should completely satisfy your doubts. Once received I will forward it to you.

Regards,
Steve
what!!
Steve's excuse sounds very lame, he isn't capable of checking a few email accounts?
He can't reply to you himself????
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this? :D :D :D :D

[Webwatch]

Jim
Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the questions. We may still differ on the MLM/Pyramid side of things but I wont use this post to go over old ground.

I note you mention a future Kanosis 'Store' for members to buy merchandise which I presume is for sale to customers without an obligation to join Kanosis, aiding the members in their marketing stratergy's. That would move Kanosis into more MLM territory as well as the just paying $15 a year option.

Regarding the above post's on Mr Whittington I would like to offer a Public Invitation for Mr Whittington to come to this forum and clarify some of the concerns about him and aid in the discussion on Kanosis.
If he considers my credibility not worth his time then do it for the 9,500 views of this thread, many of these views will be potential customers.
I wont place any time limit on this as I expect he is a very busy man and just because he may choose not to join us I won't treat this as an admission of guilt or any lack of credibility on his part.

His input would be welcome not only by me but I hope by potential Kanosis customers.

To all the MMG'rs viewing this thread please don't use this as an excuse to pretend to be Mr Whittington to promote your downline.

[JimSouthworth]

what!!
Steve's excuse sounds very lame, he isn't capable of checking a few email accounts?
He can't reply to you himself????
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this?
He needs his "lawyer" to answer this? :D :D :D :D
Ferret, you are almost the most abusive Jerk that I have ever seen whom masquerades as an “expert”…… If you would have followed the complete thread on this discussion between denl and Steve you would understand that the lawyer being referenced is “the credible” intermediate person that denl would recognize as having “Been There” and in a position to acknowledge and confirm Steve’s questioned activities with Herbalife. All you just did was again demonstrate as you have in sooo many other threads on this otherwise respectable forum how incompetent you can be in supporting the real business of this forum. Have I used too many big words that you will be busy with your dictionary for a while??? I hope so….

[Ferret]

I found this info at
http://www.kanosis.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30

Any comments?

About Stephen Whittington – President, Kanosis

Mr. Whittington's background consists of more than 20 years of senior management experience. He was Vice President of Uniroyal, Inc. and CEO and COO of Uniroyal for the Far East, which included Indochina, China, Australia, New Zealand, and all of the South Pacific. Mr. Whittington also resided in Hong Kong for 12 years and was recognized in the Hong Kong annual publication "Who's Who", which recognizes distinguished executives in Hong Kong. In addition to serving as CEO - Far East and Pacific for Uniroyal Inc., he served on the Board of Directors of SETO Holdings, Inc. and was also the former President of Herbalife International Inc. where he grew revenues fropm $1 million per month to $77m per month as he spearheaded their international expansion.
During 1973 - 1974 he was a member of the U.S. Trade Mission to Japan, representing the automotive industry.
Currently Mr. Whittington is the CEO of Whittington Industries, LLC. Mr. Whittington has contributed to the success of several start-up organizations, where his expertise was instrumental in assisting small companies through critical growth phases.

[Looking]

Mpatient24 with respect to my last posting I do unreservedly apologise for taking advantage of your posted name and going on to exploit it in order to make some points in a ridiculing manner intended to shake things up a little and test Jims response. I would like to reasure you that my references to mugshots were certainly not specific to you personly in any way, accept to make fun of and highlight the possible abuse of personal identity and monetary risks being taken given that Kanosis members seem to be expected to post their photographs in their profile and that the purposes of this debate is of trying to establish whether Kanosis has a genuine buisness model or not-ahead of us having to take potentaily a very costly wait and see approach as to whether Kanosis does in fact realisticly have the potential to overcome all the negative paradoxes inherant to existing MLM's structures.

Trust Should be an informed gamble. I believe thats why we are both seeking answers.

My appliance of the word prostitute was most definitly not intended as a defamation of your personal self. To my own discredit or rather as you have put it "ineptitude" I had not actualy noted your gender untill Jim pointed that out in his subsequent defence of you. I do have a lot of respect for your contributions and hope you can maintain industrious inputs. I did seek to encourage more Kanosis members to join this debate. I hope they do not subsequently feel intimidated.
I am sorry for any distress my posting may have caused you and I am thankfull that Jim stepped in saving you from expressing anything you may later have regreted.

I neither find it intimidating nor mind being accused of being called a Jerk as I always strive to maintain an open and inquisitive mind. If being a Jerk disqualifies me from being an out and out skeptic I am inclined to agree.


Looking




A rebuke goes far deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred Blows into a fool.

[Ferret]

Jason McDowell says Stephen Whittington was NEVER the President of Herbalife

Jason McDowell says he has NEVER even heard of Stephen Whittington
He has NO idea who Stephen is
He did say he knew Michael Diamond and we will be very interested to see what Michael says about Stephen Whittington

So, who is Jason McDowell?
An Herbalife Story -- by Jason McDowell
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

Jason was a 14 year, 4 Diamond Exec President's Team Member
He was a personal friend of Mark Hughes (deceased) and knows everything there is to know about Herbalife

Jason is the "credible” intermediate person that “Was There”
He joined in 1989 and quit in 2003

Jason also questioned the claim that Stephen Whittington grew revenues from $1 million per month to $77m per month as he spearheaded their international expansion
He said that NEVER happened

So Jim Southworth, what do you have to say about this?

If you would have followed the complete thread on this discussion between denl and Steve you would understand that the lawyer being referenced is “the credible” intermediate person that denl would recognize as having “Been There” and in a position to acknowledge and confirm Steve’s questioned activities with Herbalife

PS: I got the info above directly from the source, Jason McDowell by phone an ~hour ago,
unfortunately he wasn't interested in coming here and posting on this forum

He is in Holland now and his email and contact info is on the weblink above
It took a few weeks to track him down and if anyone has doubts they can confirm what I said in this post

[JimSouthworth]

Jason McDowell says Stephen Whittington was NEVER the President of Herbalife

Jason McDowell says he has NEVER even heard of Stephen Whittington
He has NO idea who Stephen is
He did say he knew Michael Diamond and we will be very interested to see what Michael says about Stephen Whittington

So, who is Jason McDowell?
An Herbalife Story -- by Jason McDowell
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

Jason was a 14 year, 4 Diamond Exec President's Team Member
He was a personal friend of Mark Hughes (deceased) and knows everything there is to know about Herbalife

Jason is the "credible” intermediate person that “Was There”
He joined in 1989 and quit in 2003

Jason also questioned the claim that Stephen Whittington grew revenues from $1 million per month to $77m per month as he spearheaded their international expansion
He said that NEVER happened

So Jim Southworth, what do you have to say about this?
Simple, he is mistaken and obviously doesn't know the history of Herbalife before he joined them.... Steve was there when the company was founded in 1983 through 1985.... He and the founding Chairman did not part on good terms. I have independent confirmations from my own sources who were there during the earliest times.....But I'm going to let Steve respond directly... this information that you are highlighting is the same that denl raised.... now that Steve is back in the office today off travel, I expect you should have your information shortly.

[Ferret]

Simple, he is mistaken and obviously doesn't know the history of Herbalife before he joined them.... Steve was there when the company was founded in 1983 through 1985.... He and the founding Chairman did not part on good terms. I have independent confirmations from my own sources who were there during the earliest times.....But I'm going to let Steve respond directly... this information that you are highlighting is the same that denl raised.... now that Steve is back in the office today off travel, I expect you should have your information shortly.
Have you read his website?
I would say no.......
An Herbalife Story -- by Jason McDowell
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

He was VERY involved and I doubt if he is "mistaken"

The company was founded in 1980
get your facts straight!

http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Herbalife/herbalife01.html
Herbalife's Early Days (1980-1986)
Stephen Barrett, M.D.
Herbalife International, of Inglewood, California, markets weight-control products, dietary supplements, and personal-care products. The company was founded in 1980 by 24-year-old Mark Hughes, who states he was inspired by his mother's unsuccessful struggle to control her weight with amphetamines. However, this claim was contradicted by an autopsy report which indicated that she had died of an overdose of Darvon, a painkiller that is a controlled dcontradicted by her autopsy.
see the rest at the link above

now that Steve is back in the office today off travel, I expect you should have your information shortly.
Your excuses are SO LAME
Does Steve have a cellphone?
A laptop?
A Blackberry?
A Treo?
Kanosis :confused: :D
You are a high tech cutting edge company that isn't always connected?
He hasn't given you his number?
The dog ate my homework?
excuses, excuses.....

We have been asking you for a VERY LONG TIME(I will look up when this ? was first asked) for info on Steve

What are you hiding?

[Ferret]

According to "flowmaster", the executives of Kanosis are Steve Whittington, Jim Southworth, Alistair Kildey.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=1

According to flowmaster, Steve Whittington was ex-executive (or ex-president) of Herbalife. Can someone help me to connect Steve with Herbalife? Google search is not good enough to find useful information on Steve's past "glory" at Herbalife. :(

Who is Alistair Kildey? You can hear his voice here:
http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/7/lang/english/onlinesignup

Google search return quite a few people but not sure which one is the Alistair Kildey that run kanosis. What is his background? What is his qualification that can bring success to Kanosis?

It is time that we take a closer look at these MLM guru, right? ;)
The first time someone asked about Steve Whittington was February 20th, 2006, 05:16 AM

What are you hiding?

[nepatriots]

Your excuses are SO LAME

NO… what is lame is your shotgun type of questioning. I haven’t had the time to check on this web site for days and I am not even the CEO of a company trying to get off the ground. So when JimSouthworth says that Steve is a busy person I tend to believe him.

Denl just received the message from Steve, so give him at least an hour to get the info to him/her or to JimSouthworth. If Michael Diamond does confirm that Steve Whittington was a part of Herbalife during the years in question then you are going to look like an idiot… ooops sorry you already do. :nono:

[Looking]

Simple, he is mistaken and obviously doesn't know the history of Herbalife before he joined them.... Steve was there when the company was founded in 1983 through 1985.... He and the founding Chairman did not part on good terms. I have independent confirmations from my own sources who were there during the earliest times.....But I'm going to let Steve respond directly... this information that you are highlighting is the same that denl raised.... now that Steve is back in the office today off travel, I expect you should have your information shortly.

It seems to me that if what Jim has stated is the case then it could be concluded that Steve Whittington left Herbalife for ethical reasons. That would be very incouraging.

I would like to develop some of the points made regarding corporate questions and Jims answers.

Alistair Kildey mentions that a second wave role out of Kanosis will aim at businesses, the idea being that businesses can only have access to the products if they sign up under a Kanosis member along with all their staff.

Can employers force their staff to sign up to Kanosis membership and what are the Legal implications regarding employment regulations/rights in Europe/World in this regard?

What if an employee decides they are not willing to be a Kanosis member under any circumstances?

Jim has also explained:

One of the biggest reasons Kanosis chose the MLM business model is that we intend for the up-stream person/persons to assist and participate in the on-going support of the clients below them. Kanosis will supply training aids, documentation, eventually instructors, but this is why over seventy percent of the incoming revenue is spent on marketing through the hierarchical distribution channel

This is an incredible statement. How is Kanosis going to ensure that members actualy have the ability to teach in a professional manner to professional people all about it's products and services. To my mind this strategy is an unpoliceable mine feild and will result in Kanosis loosing credbility left right and centre before it's even got started.
How many members would want to teach let alone have the ability and time to do so plus remain on call to answer questions?

Is this not full time selling?

There is a big diiference between becoming a member and making referrals as apposed to teaching & selling.
What extra remuneration would members be given for taking this lot on?

I feel this forum requires a more detailed explanation of how Kanosis intends to implement this notion.

Alistair Kildey also mentions that Kanosis owners will not sell the business but eludes if they ever did it would be sold to members. Sounds like a Mutual Society to me and it would also provide a way of cutting the matrix off once it's purpose of accelarating the business has been served.It would certainly make a lot of sense and people rich. It would also help to stave of Governments dirty paws and claws.

If this business plan can be made to work who ever runs this little lot is going to have more manopoly of power and control than most goverments. I hope they evolve to become a transnational business democracy, a real democracy not an illusion of such. Of coarse it will never be a utopia but probably better than all other nightmair alternatives.

[ycchen]

Thanks everyone for sharing all the information on Mr. Steve Whittington! :) The kanosis exectuctives (who are they exactly? is this company secret too? could someone please update kanosis website, please.) know very well that many kanosis members/recruiters will be watching this kanosis sub-forum closely, so I am confident that someone will credibility will help clarify (i) Mr. Steve Whittington's presidency at Herbalife (was he CEO too?) and also (ii) steve's contribution that brought herbalife from 1 to 77 millions business during his presidency between 1983-1985.

I think business historian should not have forgotten Steve's contribution as president (also CEO?), and misplaced Hudge as the only founder/president and "hero" in the 1980s.

We are all patiently looking forward for more clarification soon on this particular issue. Thanks. ;)

ADD: Don't forget looking's post above this post. Those are critical questions that need serious attention.

[Arzel]

It seems to me that if what Jim has stated is the case then it could be concluded that Steve Whittington left Herbalife for ethical reasons. That would be very incouraging.

I would like to develop some of the points made regarding corporate questions and Jims answers.

Alistair Kildey mentions that a second wave role out of Kanosis will aim at businesses, the idea being that businesses can only have access to the products if they sign up under a Kanosis member along with all their staff.

Can employers force their staff to sign up to Kanosis membership and what are the Legal implications regarding employment regulations/rights in Europe/World in this regard?

What if an employee decides they are not willing to be a Kanosis member under any circumstances?


This is an interesting aspect. I don't believe an employer in the US can force its employees to purchase a service, especially if that service involves income. I suppose the company could purchase the service and provide it to all their employees, but as I have mentioned before, I can't see any large companies doing this as they would have their own infrastructure to handle this kind of service.

Another interesting aspect regarding businesses using this service is the aspect of who introduces it to the company. I can definately see some legal issues where some employees benefit to a greater degree than others because of the pryamid nature.

I cannot see any reasonable business using Kanosis in the manner which it is being marketed to the average person. I can only see Kanosis selling its service directly to companies, and bypassing any affiliates because of conflict of interest issues. And I don't see any businesses making use of the commission aspect because of conflict of interest issues.

Just imagine the outcome if your employer told you that you had to purchase the Kanosis service under him/her, and that everyone in the business had to be under him/her thus paying him/her commissions on a service he forced you to purchase, especially if you had a large company like mine with over 20,000 people worldwide, no I just don't see it happening.

[JimSouthworth]

The first time someone asked about Steve Whittington was February 20th, 2006, 05:16 AM

What are you hiding?
We don't have to hide anything like you do your own identity

Ferret

Michael Diamond sent the attached mesage to Jason McDowell. This was the person that you said was a top seller of Herbalife products who had never heard of Steve. Jason had told you that he knew who Michael Diamond was so this should shut down any question about what Steve's role was at Herbalife….. Obviously feel free to verify, but lets talk about more productive subjects…. The new web page with our management team Bio’s has been through final check and should post today or tomorrow.

As I noted in the Private Message I just sent you guys directly I have take the liberty of blacking out the addresses and contact info I don't have permission to post publicy, But I sent you the whole email exchange with the actual contact info so you can verify if you wish.....

From: Stephen Whittington <XXXXXXXXXX@Kanosis.net>
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 22:30:14 +0000
To: JimSouthworth@Kanosis.com
Subject: Fwd: Michael Diamond

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:30:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Diamond <XXXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX.com.au>
To: <jason@yourbetterfuture.com>
Subject: Steve Whittington
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 16:18:56 +1100

Dear Jason

Steve Whittington has asked me to confirm some of the facts relating to the period when we were all working together for Herbalife in its earliest days.

I remember you well as one of Mark's close confidantes and one of the top ranking level of successful Herbalife distributors as well as playing golf with you in one of our corporate events some years ago.

You may recall that I started as Mark's advisor in 1982 as an Attorney and subsequently became International Counsel involved in the expansion of the company overseas firstly into Europe and then Asia until my retirement after Mark's death a few years ago.

Steve was introduced to me in 1983 by Mark Hughes as the first executive of Herbalife with international experience, he having worked as a senior executive for American corporations in Asia. Steve was appointed the President and CEO of the Herbalife Group.

We started working together with the opening of Australia, New Zealand and set the basis for the proper establishment in UK then on to Spain as the gateway to the subsequent openings throughout Europe.

I enjoyed a close relationship with Steve who introduced senior external executives into Herbalife which helped to set the foundation for its future growth.

After he left Herbalife we have continued to work together in other commercial and personal ventures and have remained close associates since that time.

Michael S. Diamond
ABN 91 296 269 112
M.S. Diamond Consulting
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
DOUBLE BAY NSW 2028
AUSTRALIA
Email: XXXXXX@XXXXXXXXX.com.au

[Webwatch]

Thanks for the update Jim on the Steve Whittington dispute.

Another quick question, are we able to get Jasons response to Michaels e-mail telling him who Steve is enabling us to draw a line under this issue.

[JimSouthworth]

Thanks for the update Jim on the Steve Whittington dispute.

Another quick question, are we able to get Jasons response to Michaels e-mail telling him who Steve is enabling us to draw a line under this issue.First we have not been privy to that response yet, second even if I sent it, I doubt Ferret will be satisfied until he goes direct to Jason.... so I wasn't even concerned about trying.... I just love having every word and sentence scrutinized as though we have done something wrong..... I like how some people here are quick to reference "Free Speech" and just that fast to consider us "guilty until proven innocent"..... kinda strikes me as being very ..hypocritical...... thanks for your breath of sanity Webwatch......

[Arzel]

Well I see that Kanosis is hitting the religous world as a money making scheme.

Here is a nice general form for this congregation.

http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/Kanosis%20New.pdf

[concerned]

Well I see that Kanosis is hitting the religous world as a money making scheme.

Here is a nice general form for this congregation.

http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/Kanosis%20New.pdf

That is a perfect example of what we hear. They say it is better than so many things, but never say why, or how. Glad to see them targeting everyone though.

[Ferret]

We don't have to hide anything like you do your own identity Ferret.
What does this badly phrased sentence have to do with anything?

Michael Diamond sent the attached mesage to Jason McDowell. This was the person that you said was a top seller of Herbalife products who had never heard of Steve. Jason had told you that he knew who Michael Diamond was so this should shut down any question about what Steve's role was at Herbalife….. Obviously feel free to verify, but lets talk about more productive subjects…. The new web page with our management team Bio’s has been through final check and should post today or tomorrow.
Click on the link to hear Steve Whittington say that he took over as the founding President of Herbalife when the company was still working out of a little retail outlet
Kanosis conference call with Steve Whittington (http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/Kanosis%202-10.mp3)
Steve also said that he has since bought Michael Diamond into Kanosis

That disqualifies him as being an "objective" reference about Steve Whittington as he now has an interest in Kanosis and is "Steves" buddy

Steve Whittington says that Herbalife still holds the record of being the fastest growing company in the US from his tenure
Steve claims that Kanosis will break that record

Where is the documentation that supports the claim of holding this record?

Steve was introduced to me in 1983 by Mark Hughes as the first executive of Herbalife with international experience, he having worked as a senior executive for American corporations in Asia. Steve was appointed the President and CEO of the Herbalife Group.

We started working together with the opening of Australia, New Zealand and set the basis for the proper establishment in UK then on to Spain as the gateway to the subsequent openings throughout Europe.

I enjoyed a close relationship with Steve who introduced senior external executives into Herbalife which helped to set the foundation for its future growth.

After he left Herbalife we have continued to work together in other commercial and personal ventures and have remained close associates since that time.

Michael S. Diamond
Shouldn't Michael have disclosed in this letter that he is "employed" by Kanosis now?
What is his relationship with Kanosis?

Michael says Steve was appointed the President and CEO of the Herbalife Group.

When was he appointed?

Who appointed him?

Why is there no mention of this online or documented anywhere else?

Where is this documented if it does exist?

Who was the President before him?

Who took over from Steve?

When did he leave Herbalife?

Why did he leave? There was mention of a disagreement
What happened?

If you read Jasons website you will know Herbalife has a very "interesting " history that will make a great Movie
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

Please give us more detail about Steves tenure with Herbalife

When is Steve coming to this forum to answer some questions directly?
The conference call above is the only direct statement that can be found from him

Thanks for any answers to my many questions

I probably missed some important ones, but I am sure that all present and future Kanosians will like to know more about the Top Man in Kanosis who seems to be the impetus for the Matrix model Kanosis has adapted for their "Pandemic Marketing" ( Coined by Alistair Kildey in your conference calls)

[Webwatch]

First we have not been privy to that response yet, second even if I sent it, I doubt Ferret will be satisfied until he goes direct to Jason.... so I wasn't even concerned about trying.... I just love having every word and sentence scrutinized as though we have done something wrong..... I like how some people here are quick to reference "Free Speech" and just that fast to consider us "guilty until proven innocent"..... kinda strikes me as being very ..hypocritical...... thanks for your breath of sanity Webwatch......

Thanks Jim, Kanosis is far from out the woods yet but hopefully Ferret can give us Jasons response or even Jason himself could give it here, its only fair to get both sides.

Shame to see religious groups being targeted as this follows the usual track of most schemes, this may be another one of the out of control Pyramid players trying to push their downline to its maximum.

[Arzel]

This thread is closed because of length. Please continue here Kanosis - part 2 (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=36688#post36688)