Kanosis - Will you make $32k/Month?

[Arzel]

Kanosis is really starting to become a buzz with the habitual ponzi/matrix/mlm players, and I thought it important that anyone researching this company know some facts about Kanosis.

First of all you should be aware that Kanosis was started by some of the same people that brought you Herbalife, the source of thousands a pieces of spam email and signs all over America. Although not illegal, still makes many people cringe with anger over their marketing methods.

Compensation Plan of Kanosis:

The compensation matrix of Kanosis is the primary driving force behind the current growth of Kanosis, by using a 14 level pryamid (matrix) of 2 people per level you have the potential to earn $32k per month! A pretty substantial amount of money to say the least, but how it this possible.

A $22 subscpription to COIL (currently the only service of Kanosis) each person in your upline for 14 levels recieve 5% of your subscription per month. 14 level * 0.05 = 0.70 = 70% which also the amount some of the upper Kanosis people mention as money from subscription being put into the matrix. The equals $1.10 from each person in your downline each month.

Although it is not marketed as a straight pryamid (because it cuts off at 14 levels) for all practical purposes it is a pryamid, as are MLM to some degree. Does this make them illegal? Not neccessarily, but you need to understand the math to determine your probability of making any money off this scheme.

At this time there are reported to be about 1,500 people in the pryamid/matrix which is halfway between levels 9 and 10 in the first matrix. When a total of 32,767 people have joined the first matrix will be filled with the following payout rates.


Level - people - $ per month - proportion of people
0 .......... 1 ..... $36,043 ...... 0.0031%
1 .......... 2 ..... $18,020 ...... 0.0061%
2 .......... 4 ....... $9,009 ...... 0.0122%
3 .......... 8 ....... $4,503 ...... 0.0244%
4 ......... 16 ....... $2,251 ..... 0.0488%
5 ......... 32 ....... $1,124 ..... 0.0977%
6 ......... 64 ......... $561 ...... 0.1953%
7 ........ 128 ........ $279 ...... 0.3906%
8 ........ 256 ......... $139 ...... 0.7813%
9 ........ 512 ........... $68 ...... 1.5625%
10 .... 1,024 ........... $33 ...... 3.1250%
11 ... 2,048 ............ $15 ...... 6.2500%
12 ... 4,096 ............. $7 ..... 12.5000%
13 ... 8,192 ............. $2 ..... 25.0000%
14 .. 16,384 ............. $0 ..... 50.0000%

Total people after 14 levels is 32,767.

(table fixed to show people per level instead of cumulative total people)

You can already see at this point only about 6.5% of the members will make enough to pay for their subscription, and who do you think is at the top of the pryamid, why the owners of course.

Given that there are about 1,500 people now on the list it would take over 16,000,000 people for them to reach the top of their own personal matrix. Now some may be able to fill their own to completion, but I doubt very few people have enough contacts to fill 32,000 people, especially given all the competition between members trying to fill their own downline. The vast majority will have to rely on spillover from the top of the matrix.

In fact those that are joining now would need almost half a million people to reach $1,125 a month. And this is not considering fall-out. Certainly those at the top will never drop out, there is no reason not to stay in as long as their matrix stays full to the point where they always make enough to stay in. But this will not be true of the bottom After a certain point people at the bottom will never be able to reach the point where the product pays for itself.

Kanosis projects 10,000,000 people in a year (which I consider extremely optomistic, but lets say they reach that ever). At this point those at the bottom would require about 150,000,000 people total to reach the point of paying for the product. This is will never happen, thus even the 10,000,000 will be difficult to reach and impossible to maintain, those at the bottom would constantly be trying to bring new people in to reach this point and never be able to maintain it.

I think a more likely scenario would be a max of 100,000 to 200,000 with a couple dozen people making enough money to not have to work anymore, while tens of thousands of people carry them on their backs.

Another aspect of Kanosis that is touted is the aspect of other products which would also pay a commission back to you, however if you know anything about game theory you will see that this will make no difference in the long run.

Since the only people to truely benefit from additional purchases are those above you, your choice with the greatest cost-benefit (lowest risk) would be to not buy anything, but tell everyone below you that you do in hopes of getting them to buy additional product. But since this is the best choice, all (or at least most) will follow it resulting in little or no additional benefit to those in your upline.

The game theory also applies to the actual matrix, since these things have been played to death over the past few years, people now understand that the only way to win is to get in early, thus these matrix lists start to die off sooner and sooner.

Now if you are interested in Kanosis for the actual product then by all means go ahead, but if you are interested in Kanosis for the prospect of making any real money you have less than a 5% chance of doing so and that probability is only going to go down as time goes on, in a month it will probably be almost 0. If there wasn't such a push to get people into everyones downline with the prospect of earning money, I might talk more about the actual product, that seems secondary at this point.

So remember, when you play a game with the odds stacked against you, you are doomed to lose.

[ycchen]

For habitual ponzi/pyramid players, they know very well that it is a unjust pyramid structure that only early bird get pay. Therefore, Arzel analysis only give these people more determination to join early. :shake:

The failure of herbalife distributors at the bottom of the pyramid do not affect these people either because they will laugh at those "idots" who join too late in the game.

In short, these front-row seat players knows exactly what Kanaosis executives are offering them, a chance of pocketing the most of all the "collected" money (monthly subscription). It is the unjust system (early birds win, latecomer lose, 100% garanteed) that make Kanosis pyramid-style business attractive to these habitual pyramid/ponzi/mlm players.

However, there is still one risk. If more people knows about the unjust nature of kanosis (read: unjust pyramid-style business), they will refuse to join. Or at least, they will make a rational decision by calculating their chance of breaking even (which is very very slim 6.5%, according to our statistic guru-- Arzel).

MatrixWatch is against any unjust pyramid/ponzi model that breaks all the market rules (even though they might not be illegal yet) by pre-determine the winners and losers. Unfortuantely, Kanosis falls right in the middle of this category. :( Therefore, our advice to consumer is still: stay away!

Even if you think you "will be" early bird, and can take advantage of the latecomer donors, don't do it because pyramid-style business is an unjust and unethical business!

With blackbox operation (how do you know how many people is on top of you ;)), everyone things that it is still early, but in reality, according to Arzel statistical analysis, it is already too late to get in.

In sum, either for ethical reason or rational reason, do not join Kanosis pyramid at this point, it will be a waste of your money and your time.

NOTE: Kanosis does not seems to offer refund.

[Webwatch]

It will come as no surpise to those watching the Kanosis thread that I totally agree with everything said so far in this thread.

I have always believed that the top positions of any Pyramid Structure will have been taken by those who started it and their relations. These will be the ones who stand to gain the most, or lose if the whole thing collapses.

On a side point I have been following the MMG thread and it looks like someone has appeared to try and bring an argument against Kanosis.
Interesting to see how the others will react.

Her first post appears here (pyro-girl)
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=315

I expect they will all gang up on her.

I'm even tempted to join the forum to offer her some support but from her later posts it looks like she can defend herself and cross forum debates will only detract from the main issue.

[Arzel]

I see they are even pulling some quotes from our forums, that doesn't happen very often.

Flowmaster, what a scammer.

Lets have a debate-free day, please!
We know who we are, Opportunists
We know what we have, A Pryamid
Nothing else matters.
Laser-like focus is required, if we are going to succeed! Ignore everyone that is not on board

What a jerk, he only cares about his own downline.

[Webwatch]

Talking of quotes check this one out:
http://www.moneyandprofit.com/other-ways-to-make-money-online/84-kanosis.html

It seems they also want to missquote to mislead others into joining their scheme.

[Arzel]

I am curious if James_Oak knows that his comments have been taken out of context. This is just another example of the birth of a scam.

Lies left and right, fake testimonials, or testimonials taken out of context, and mostly a constant stream of deciet by those most involved as they try to lure more and more people into their personal downline for their own benefit.

NOTE: Those people (like yllen from the other forum for example, and flowmaster from above) are not your friends. Their only interest in you is your money, and they will tell you anything in order to get it from you, we have seen it happen time and time again.

[ycchen]

Talking of quotes check this one out:
http://www.moneyandprofit.com/other-ways-to-make-money-online/84-kanosis.html

It seems they also want to missquote to mislead others into joining their scheme. The first misquote is found here by "eeyore", flowmaster downline, I suppose.

Let me post the "testimonial" here before they delete it.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=45327&view=findpost&p=1289343
I read this whole thread http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthre...69&page=1&pp=25
and look at the end outcome after much DD from James Oak a member of matrixwatch.

James' background

"I received an e-mail from my parents today that has kept me awake to this point (5:00 a.m. PST). Obviously it was about Kanosis and COIL, and they were recommending it based on someone they trusted in their church who said it was a promising investment opportunity. In the four hours since receiving that e-mail, I have done my best to find out everything I can about Kanosis and COIL, including reading this entire thread.

I am a web applications developer for a Christian university near Seattle, Washington. I develop front-end and back-end interfaces that make our web site easy to use for people who aren't exactly web-savvy. It's been my job for the past six years, and I use HTML, CSS, Javascript, Flash Actionscript, PHP, and MySQL to do what I need to do. We have several servers onsite and I occasionally use a VPN to connect remotely to my work computer. I say all this, not to fill up space, but to give you the idea that I have some experience in the field of internet applications, albeit I know next to nothing about pure Java programming."


"The bottom line is it might work, as long as nobody else (like Google) offers the same services in an easy to use interface for free (or for less money), using advertising to pay or offset their system costs. It's a high risk investment/subscription, and if you are willing to pay for the possibility of getting a decent service (that doesn't go under due to lack of consistent subscribers), then more power to you. I talked with my parents about it and after I was sure they understood that, I gave them the green light, despite my continued misgivings. The reason is rather personal: my grandfather had the opportunity to be one of the four initial founders of McDonalds and rejected it, saying it would never work. Granted, he was offered major share holdings (not a maximum possible $34,000/year), and was required to invest significantly more than $279/year. Anyhow, my parents aren't the best investors, but they think the risk of complete loss is worth the possibility of some reward.
The very bottom line is, if this product succeeds and becomes the first Itunes/Outlook/E-commerce platform of the next generation, I will be happy to be one of the subscribers who gets no kickbacks and pays whatever price is reasonable. A general rule with internet-based services is they get cheaper over time. Like I said before, I pay $4/mo. to get some ridiculous amount (like 5gb) of space for my web site, of which I use a fraction. I'm willing to pay for an established service."

This makes me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Webwatch]

It does seem strange why one of the members would try and mis lead others on their own forum especially when they are already brainwashed into thinking this Pyramid scheme will work.

Unless of course they are just in it just for the coil software and not to make any money (we all believe this don't we).

[Arzel]

Yeah, we all believe that! ;)

After doing about and hour of searching on the net I have yet to find one single site that doesn't promote the aspect of future income from being a member. And other than a few schill promotions of Coil I have yet to find any real reviews of the software.

Some of the sites which had been promoting the pryamidal nature of Kanosis have been shut down, but there are still many that promote the ability to download movies and music (which is something that Jim mentioned as not quite true).

Also I am seeing quite a few sites promoting incomes as high as $500 a day simply by joining.

In case you are wondering, if you go in today (at approxiametly 2k members), there will need to be over 8 million members in order to reach this kind of income, which will simply never happen. Members joining today will be lucky to earn a few dollars a month over and above the cost of being a member.

[Webwatch]

Something interesting is happening on the MMG Forum
This just appeared!

VERY URGENT POST:

I was made aware of this official Kanosis announcement in the Members Center.

ADVERTISING

A reminder that all advertising is banned in pre launch. This includes websites, forums, mass emailing and Google ads. A number of people have ignored this policy and it has led to some negative exposure for the company. We do not want public exposure to Kanosis until we are properly established.

Launch is now set for MAY 2


The full post can be found here: http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=390

Or if I was to miss quote them like they have done to members of this forum it could read:
ADVERTISING

A reminder that all advertising is banned in pre launch. We where happy for it to continue while the suckers where being dragged in to our Pyramid Scheme.
But as some clever sods have now blown the whistle on us it needs to stop as we redesign our business stratergy.

Launch is now set for MAY 2/JUNE/JULY/AUGUST or whenever we feel like it.


Got a feeling I am going to have to wait a bit longer to see how this develops.

[Arzel]

Ahh, more signs that Kanosis is a pryamid scheme with a shady future.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=390

ATTN:

I would like to make it 100% clear that I DO NOT advocate ANY FORUMS activities,at all.

Even Dallas' Forum at kanosis alliance.

My interpretation of this offical No-forums rule means all Forums, in my opinion.

The reasons that Forums are a problem for Kanosis, is people cut & paste our communications

and try to use it against us.

Proceed there at your own risk.

You have been forewarned by myself and Kanosis Admin.


Just another aspect of scams. A strict control of information and how it flows from point A to point B. Normally forum control such as this only appears after the program starts to fall apart.

What is most interesting about the Kanosis development is that I don't have a problem with their product, but the new announcement seems to indicate that members are not allowed to even allow promotion of the actual product they are trying to sell...

This all makes me wonder "why?" Certainly a limiting of discussion of the commission plan is advantageous for Kanosis. This allows the scheme to be fully implemented before anyone can question the business, and allows Kanosis time to develop its all important cheerleader level of people that will be the backbone of the MLM aspect.

But why not market the actual product COIL without mention of the compensation? From a marketing point of view it serves no point unless they are still lining up the top of the pryamid and might wish to use some of the higher positions as consideration for enticing certain large groups of people to join. Whatever the case it is nice to see that they will be clamping down on the outrageous claims of income per day and month. And perhaps the new delay for the actual start of Kanosis will let them rethink this whole strategy of using a matrix/pryamid/ponzi model as part of their compensation.

[ycchen]

just to "archive" flowmaster's "last" post before it get deleted. I hope MMG just lock the thread instead of deleting it. By deleting the "pyramid-building" evidence, we have one less evidence against the Kanaosis when it crash 6-8 months later after it launches. May be some computer geek can help us save the whole threat? Thanks.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=45327&view=findpost&p=1314775

Okay, Kanosis has now stated clearly that we cannot open a Forum in pre-launch. We are considered in the

same category as Google Ads, mass mailing, etc. I wish they would have been more specific earlier

So cease all operations of communicating in the Forum! Everybody in my team must stop everything now!

I will check with MMG admin to delete our posts, if it can be done.

Contact me by my kanosis email, because I will not be coming back into any Forum, until we are at Main

Launch. I apologize for this, but I did not see the delay coming. Espescially now to May 02.

Please tell everybody in your downline to cease coming to the Forum or we could get in trouble.

I will also do emails to everyone in the group about this official announcement.

I will not be taking any furthur signups until May 02 into the team from the list.

If you have person to person sharing, then bring them into your group,outside the Forum.

I will have copies of the Placement List ,etc. and we will start off,exactly where we left off.

Again, sorry for this unforeseen occurence. Just know that you joined Kanosis with a good position

that should pay off down the line. As you can see the daily growth of membership in your back office.

flowmaster has enough downline, so he does not mind stopping at this point as long as he can keep his little throphy (little pyramid of his own). If Kanosis want sto really get rid of the pyramid structure completely and focus on their product and service like any software company would. They must do the following:

1) refund everyone now and stop the membership drive until the product is fully ready in May 2.

2) get rid of the pyramid-base referal system!

3) Put more information about the "team" and the "product and service" on their main page.

4) post these changes on every ponzi-promoting form and not just "member" area!! These are pyramid-tained membership, so if kanosis really want to clear its name from pyramid, they really need to start all over again.

[mercinary]

Just another aspect of scams. A strict control of information and how it flows from point A to point B. Normally forum control such as this only appears after the program starts to fall apart.


I've been monitoring this Kanosis thing only from afar, but this I must comment on. Indeed, this is a CLEAR indication of dishonesty. If a business plan is legit, why would someone want to restrict discussion about it???? It sounds like these people will impose some kind of punishment on those who do chat in forums about Kanosis??? What the heck is that all about? Truly unprofessional.

-Merc

[Webwatch]

Just a quick observation.

Its strange how the forums discussing Kanosis are closed down as soon as any negative posts are made about the scheme.

Also how the Google (pay per click) ads from the Kanosis key players are still running and ignoring the closure announcement.

Is this because in any Pyrmaid scheme control is a key factor to how long it will survive and the leaders dont want the whole thing to fizzle out before the so called launch.

Or is it because every Pyramid schemes guiding philosophe is:
"You can fool all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time but you can never fool all of the people all of the time"

Or maybe I'm just being cynical.

I think we need Jim to come back and enlighten us a bit on this.

[Arzel]

I don't think we will see Jim back here, and we probably won't see Patrick either. They have already admitted in as much that Kanosis is a pryamid scheme, so they cannot defend that aspect of this scheme.

According to Jim, they are only using the pryamid scam aspect to get a core group of people to start using the software. He uses much more flowery language to kind of hide the pyramid scheme aspect, but nonetheless agrees that it is. He also prefers to call it a MLM, but it is a pryamid.

Patrick is an interesting story, he is still promoting the scheme, even though in his position you would think that he would be the first to be told not to advertise.

Also interesting is that our friends over at STA / YMMSS had advertisements for Kanosis and they have now been pulled, but if you look at the wonderful internet history you can still see them. I wonder which people already at the top of the STA Matrix lists are sitting near the top of the Kanosis scheme.

My current hyposthesis is that Kanosis is going to try and stay quiet as it tries to work itself into as many "legit" arenas as it can so that when the "Official" launch happens they can scam thousands of people in short period of time to really get the pryamid going and provide a ton of hype (we all know the formula).

But back to the question of seeing Jim Southworth here again....I don't think so, at least not to post, from a risk perspective it is a lose / lose situation.

He still hasn't answered many questions regarding Kanosis, and he definately doesn't want to give this little fire any more fuel.

But he will be reading everyone of these posts with keen interest.

[JimSouthworth]

You guys are such hypocrites..... One of you tells me that when you see me / us start to shut down the out of control sites you will believe we are serious about running this as a real business. I have started that continuous process with the full blessing and activities of my management and our legal team. Meanwhile, we are getting shot at by Arzel, saying that this is what happens just before we go bust !!!! WRONG !!!!

I also have been extremely active finishing the things they hired me to do like build our new sites and enhance our infrastructure as well as to help get several aspects of our technology polished up further for official launch. We are using the input we have been getting from our early Beta-1 users to debug and clean up the little irritations that are inevitable in any complex system. As of Monday ALL of our own entire corporate operations world-wide are running on the next generation of Kanosis "business version" as well. This version even includes other new software applications that won't be released officially for a few more months when the new integration for them is seamless. Kinda like a Beta-2.

This is a business not a scam and I am not the PR guy or the lawyers. If you prefer to talk to them instead of the straight technical scoop from me, I will be glad to arrange that. I have been doing private conversations off and on with several of your people for the last few days because I refuse to keep playing the game by your rules of interrogation. I won't keep answering the same questions just slightly re-stated with the same answers over and over again.... I have worked with law enforcement and the governmental regulatory agencies all over the world for too long to not recognize these techniques from their side of the table....

I have been told by the people I trust who have reviewed the "new" MLM approach we are using that our system works and that it allows the lowest guys in the flow to keep adding below them while the people above top out at the max depth below which a bad matrix would start destructing. ALL of this while keeping a positive cash flow business model for our services with gross margins around 25% initially and much more later with new higher value services.

Our business is the services we are providing and the next several generations of "Seamlessly Integrated" applications and a work group environment. Yes, you may be able to find some similar individual "share-ware" or free software that does some of the things we are doing, but not the integrated interoperable security configured system we have architected into a secure “walled garden” as it is know in the security business......

Oh by the way, Arzel, I have been impressed with your credentials since you supplied them to me and I have supplied my direct contact information to several of your people and encouraged them to call me directly. It is a lot easier and much better use of my time right now talking directly to people and answering what ever questions you wish to ask in a few minutes instantly instead of having to take hours and several iterations to bottom line out your concerns.

I have nothing hide or lie about, but I am paid a salary to do a job that is mostly based on the technical experience I bring to Kanosis….. It is not to sit here and take broad-sides from a few of you who are obviously pre-disposed to their early conclusions. Why are you only willing to shoot from the hip rather than dig into the actual algorithm we are using. We feel that it is very different and as you even stated that I told you, Arzel, it is intended to build initial customer base, BUT where you missed it, the approach we are using is bottomless as any real on-going business is intended to be and intended to be almost as equally fair to all those that come in later as well.

If one of you wishes to communicate immediately you have had my real and complete contact information. Otherwise, I am busy getting in place the “techie stuff” I was recruited first and foremost to do, to handle our increasing load of new users. Call anytime, I am agnostic as to time zone.

[sisco50]

Most interesting conversation. :)

[Arzel]

You guys are such hypocrites..... One of you tells me that when you see me / us start to shut down the out of control sites you will believe we are serious about running this as a real business. I have started that continuous process with the full blessing and activities of my management and our legal team. Meanwhile, we are getting shot at by Arzel, saying that this is what happens just before we go bust !!!! WRONG !!!!

I applaud your efforts to shut down out of control marketing of Kanosis, and perhaps I was too hasty in condeming the complete control of information.


I also have been extremely active finishing the things they hired me to do like build our new sites and enhance our infrastructure as well as to help get several aspects of our technology polished up further for official launch. We are using the input we have been getting from our early Beta-1 users to debug and clean up the little irritations that are inevitable in any complex system. As of Monday ALL of our own entire corporate operations world-wide are running on the next generation of Kanosis "business version" as well. This version even includes other new software applications that won't be released officially for a few more months when the new integration for them is seamless. Kinda like a Beta-2.


I still don't like this business of pre-launch. Typically if you wish to beta test your product you would let them use the beta version for free. This is especially true if you are looking to work out final bugs in the software. I don't like the aspect of people building their matrix during the pre-launch as it is exactly the kind of tactic used by many matrix scams. And it is especially useful in filling the top of the matrix with friends and family.


This is a business not a scam and I am not the PR guy or the lawyers. If you prefer to talk to them instead of the straight technical scoop from me, I will be glad to arrange that. I have been doing private conversations off and on with several of your people for the last few days because I refuse to keep playing the game by your rules of interrogation. I won't keep answering the same questions just slightly re-stated with the same answers over and over again.... I have worked with law enforcement and the governmental regulatory agencies all over the world for too long to not recognize these techniques from their side of the table....


Just to be clear on this. I don't neccessarily consider Kanosis to be a scam, but the aspect in which it is being marketed is very similar to many scams which we encounter. I am glad to see that you are taking measure to move away from the aspect of allowing individuals to market the compounded revenue aspect of being a member, but it still seems to be a leading component of the marketing.

I also don't see COIL as being a scam product, whether it has the value your company has given is yet to be determined. It seems a little pricey to pay $264 a year for such a product to me.


I have been told by the people I trust who have reviewed the "new" MLM approach we are using that our system works and that it allows the lowest guys in the flow to keep adding below them while the people above top out at the max depth below which a bad matrix would start destructing. ALL of this while keeping a positive cash flow business model for our services with gross margins around 25% initially and much more later with new higher value services.


This is my biggest problem with Kanosis, and the aspect by which it is being marketed. Regardless of what you have been told, my (and many others) mathmatical and statistical analyses of the matrix model has proven that they do not work. In my eyes there is no such thing as a "good" matrix, they are all bad in the sense that there will always be people that have zero probability of achieving any downline.

The number of people in the matrix will always exceed the profitability of the matrix, there is simply no way around this. A matrix will always be a net loss system.


Our business is the services we are providing and the next several generations of "Seamlessly Integrated" applications and a work group environment. Yes, you may be able to find some similar individual "share-ware" or free software that does some of the things we are doing, but not the integrated interoperable security configured system we have architected into a secure “walled garden” as it is know in the security business......


As I said, I don't have a problem with your product, just the way it is being marketed. I think people should know when doing their research that they have almost zero chance of earning money by being a member. If they wish to purchase purely for the product, then by means do so. But if they are purchasing for the chance of earning up to $32k a month, they should know that this will not happen.



Oh by the way, Arzel, I have been impressed with your credentials since you supplied them to me and I have supplied my direct contact information to several of your people and encouraged them to call me directly. It is a lot easier and much better use of my time right now talking directly to people and answering what ever questions you wish to ask in a few minutes instantly instead of having to take hours and several iterations to bottom line out your concerns.


Thanks, and yes I have been informed of your contact information, but I am not sure how it would improve this open discourse. Besides Kanosis does appear to be addressing my primary concern of marketing Kanosis as a money making endevour.


I have nothing hide or lie about, but I am paid a salary to do a job that is mostly based on the technical experience I bring to Kanosis….. It is not to sit here and take broad-sides from a few of you who are obviously pre-disposed to their early conclusions. Why are you only willing to shoot from the hip rather than dig into the actual algorithm we are using. We feel that it is very different and as you even stated that I told you, Arzel, it is intended to build initial customer base, BUT where you missed it, the approach we are using is bottomless as any real on-going business is intended to be and intended to be almost as equally fair to all those that come in later as well.


You do seem to have a pretty impressive resume of security experience, and I am sure related technical experience. As far as the algorithm being used, by all means feel free to share it.

From an economic point of view I would be very interested in hearing of a way that all members are able to profit by simply using services provided by Kanosis. I have a couple of issues with such an economic model however.

I will asume since you have not stated otherwise that my analysis of the compensation aspect of Kanosis that I am very close to how it works in regards to 5% commission from each person in your downline down to 14 levels. This model allows for your 25% gross margin (actually allows for 30%, but I am guessing that there are some other costs that you are considering).

You suggest we are "Shooting from the hip", and I suppose that is a fair analogy, but when you consider some of our other predictions and estimates of other matrix models (like YMMSS for example) you will see that we are very good at these kinds of predictions.

Very rarely are we actually given the actual model used outright, usually we have to estimate it based off of information provided by other people (got to love statistics! :) ) YMMSS was a great example of this process. Their "Superior" algorithm has never been disclosed (company secret of course) but some members were nice enough to provide a ton of statistics about the model. During the extreme growth of the scam they used the payout statistics to promote the scheme. This combined with information on how the model worked regarding movement through the matrix allowed us to provide estimates that were better than estimates provided by YMMSS itself.

In fact some of our members (Surfer, Ycchen, and Salsa) provided such good estimates that you would have thought they had a copy of the model themselves.


If one of you wishes to communicate immediately you have had my real and complete contact information. Otherwise, I am busy getting in place the “techie stuff” I was recruited first and foremost to do, to handle our increasing load of new users. Call anytime, I am agnostic as to time zone.

I appreciate your willingness to talk to us, and I really do think that the actual product COIL does have some use, but as I said I just want to make sure people understand that they will not get rich by simply buying the service.

I would also like to be clear in that I HAVE NOT seen Kanosis itself market the potential of huge monthly income, just some of the members like Patrick.

[concerned]

You guys are such hypocrites..... One of you tells me that when you see me / us start to shut down the out of control sites you will believe we are serious about running this as a real business. I have started that continuous process with the full blessing and activities of my management and our legal team. Meanwhile, we are getting shot at by Arzel, saying that this is what happens just before we go bust !!!! WRONG !!!!


Actually, funny you say that. When you tell the speculators to post in the forums to stop spreading information, you aren't doing yourself any good. All you have done is shown the true intentions of your "business" dealings. Why wouldn't you have done what other "legitimate businesses" would have done in situations like that. Usually they request legal action against a place where the advertisments look like the site is a scam. Instead, you told the people to just keep quiet. While working with the same people promoting your "legitimate business" as a pyramid scheme just shows you are in agreement with their style, and are just asking them to keep quiet to try to prove your point to us. Not very smart.

[james_oak]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for pointing out that my attempt to bring a hint of clarity was turned into a fake carte-blanche testimonial. It makes me so angry I want to punch flowmaster in the head. Repeatedly. Yes, flowmaster, if you're reading this, you can consider that a threat. If you'd like to get some lawyers and take me to court, I'd be happy to meet you there and beat the **** out of you. ****ing bastard. Yes, Christians sometime swear, and yes, sometimes they beat the **** out of greedy bastards. Read the Old Testament while you try to make a "Follow-up Testimonial" out of this paragraph.

I am extremely pissed off about my words being used to promote Kanosis and COIL. I only meant to attempt some clarity and put in layman's terms a few aspects about the software description I received from Jim, which again, I have not purchased or been able to test or read any damn third party reviews because there are none. Except for my "Testimonial."

Let me add that I don't think Jim had anything to do with it and from what I can tell he is doing his best to control the people attracted to Kanosis from giving out misinformation. An interesting crowd, which does include my parents - which I still have misgivings about. I guess that's what happens when your investors know nothing about the technology they're investing in.

Arzel, Watchdog, other Matrixwatch members, thank you very much for watching out for me. I tried to help and it just got twisted around. I'm just glad I didn't name the university I work for, otherwise now there'd be tons of message boards saying "Suchandsuch University" uses COIL!

I am making a donation to Matrixwatch because of this. It could have been a four or five month subscription to Kanosis/COIL, but I consider HONESTY and TRANSPARENCY more valuable than a program or a chance to make money. Thanks guys.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/faqs/lang/english/faqs

Is Kanosis Pyramid selling?

No we do not sell pyramids. They are too heavy and expensive to ship!

It is however a question that comes up as people introduce the concept to others. The first thing you should ask someone who tells you this is a pyramid scam is to have them put it in writing and sign it with their name and address on it. What they are doing is making a legal claim that amounts to slander. You could ask them to draw the shape of any corporation or even the US government. They are all shaped like a pyramid. The best explanation for those that are actually interested is as follows:

The Network marketing industry is now over 55 years old and it currently does in excess of 100 billion USD in turn over PA. Despite this you cannot go to any authority and have your business model approved or judged to be legal or illegal. Only a Judge can make that determination. That will only happen if the authorities decide to take action. However over the past 55 years some clear precedents have been set for what is considered an illegal pyramid scheme and a legitimate networking business.

1. You cannot get paid for recruiting people.

In Kanosis you make no commissions when people join as a community member and pay their annual membership fee. As a community member you are free to buy products that Kanosis has available but you are under no obligation to promote the business side of Kanosis. If you do not promote it then you are not entitled to earn commissions from purchases made by people in your matrix. If you do meet the criteria as set out in the marketing plan then you will earn commissions on purchases made by those people that are in your personal matrix.

2. Your payment matrix cannot go on forever. This would mean the person at the top of the matrix would always make the most money.
The Kanosis model cuts off after the 14th level. It is always possible that someone joining your business could make more money than you.

3. You must sell a genuine product. You cannot sell for example bottles of fairy breath for $50.00 a bottle.

The COIL product is a serious software offering that has been developed over the last six years. Over 60,000 programming hours have gone into its development.

4. The product must be sold at a legitimate price. This area is always open to debate. As a rule it means you can’t take a bar of soap that you can buy in the supermarket for $2 and package it into a network business and sell it for $10.

The COIL offering has been valued at over $100 a seat per month in the corporate market place. Many of those people purchasing the COIL subscription will save more than the subscription cost from their use of the product.

You must also be careful on how you present the product. It is not a get rich quick scheme. It is a legitimate business opportunity and must be presented as such. You must not make financial inducements to people to join the business. For example you cannot say ”if you join this company you will make $30,000 a month”. You can explain the simple marketing plan and show them how much they will get paid on each subscription if they meet the requirements of the plan.

Always be aware that the world is full of negative “experts” that will be more than happy to show their ignorance and set you right to “protect” you. Time and success is the best answer to those people.

Do I have to pay tax on my commissions?

The answer to that only your accountant can tell you. Income earned from Kanosis is income from operating a business. You will more than likely have to pay tax on it but in many countries there are also significant tax advantages to running a home based business.

What is Pre Launch/Early Registration?

This is the phase of the business as we implement and ensure all our systems are fully operational. We have given those that chose to, an opportunity to position themselves in the very beginning of this company. Many people see this as a great opportunity but those that choose to take up the opportunity must understand that we are not 100% ready and be a little patient.

Will Commissions be paid in the pre launch phase?

Yes. We only ask that you are a little patient with us as we get all of our systems integrated and fully operational.

When will Kanosis officially Launch?

The date has not been set. We still have a lot of work to do to provide you with one of the best marketing opportunities on the web. We will not take any short cuts or put the long term future of this company at risk. We hope to be ready in the second half of February but not all of the factors that will determine that are in our control.

[Webwatch]

Firstly- Hello James and thanks for your post (hopefully you wont be missquoted again).

Just to stay on top of things we have a new Kanosis advertising site popping up. kanosisfacts.com

As its in its infancy I wont pick fault just yet (but there are some classics on it).
Expect to see many more of these in the near future.

[Webwatch]

Hi Ferret thanks for the post.
The first thing you should ask someone who tells you this is a pyramid scam is to have them put it in writing and sign it with their name and address on it. What they are doing is making a legal claim that amounts to slander

This is a strange quote for a legitimate company to make in its FAQ section.

Whether Kanosis is a Pyramid Scam or not is yet to be proven.
It is undeniable that Pyramid selling techniques are being used to entice new customers.

It is my understanding that in open debate No Legal Threats can be made to intimidate individuals, thereby restricting or changing their opinion on any matter they choose to discuss (freedom of speech). Please let me know if I'm wrong on this.

[ycchen]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for pointing out that my attempt to bring a hint of clarity was turned into a fake carte-blanche testimonial. It makes me so angry I want to punch flowmaster in the head. Repeatedly. Yes, flowmaster, if you're reading this, you can consider that a threat. If you'd like to get some lawyers and take me to court, I'd be happy to meet you there and beat the **** out of you. ****ing bastard. Yes, Christians sometime swear, and yes, sometimes they beat the **** out of greedy bastards. Read the Old Testament while you try to make a "Follow-up Testimonial" out of this paragraph.

I am extremely pissed off about my words being used to promote Kanosis and COIL. I only meant to attempt some clarity and put in layman's terms a few aspects about the software description I received from Jim, which again, I have not purchased or been able to test or read any damn third party reviews because there are none. Except for my "Testimonial."

Let me add that I don't think Jim had anything to do with it and from what I can tell he is doing his best to control the people attracted to Kanosis from giving out misinformation. An interesting crowd, which does include my parents - which I still have misgivings about. I guess that's what happens when your investors know nothing about the technology they're investing in.

Arzel, Watchdog, other Matrixwatch members, thank you very much for watching out for me. I tried to help and it just got twisted around. I'm just glad I didn't name the university I work for, otherwise now there'd be tons of message boards saying "Suchandsuch University" uses COIL!

I am making a donation to Matrixwatch because of this. It could have been a four or five month subscription to Kanosis/COIL, but I consider HONESTY and TRANSPARENCY more valuable than a program or a chance to make money. Thanks guys. James, welcome back and thanks for your generous donation! Please continue to come back once a while because we really need your expertise as the kanosis event unfold.

Just a correction. Flowmaster did not misquote you, it was eeyore -- one of flowmaster (Keo) downline in his little pyramid. (see the original post by eeyore below)

One reminder, I know you are really pissed (who won't?!) but we we discourage direct personal "threat" on this forum. ;)

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?showtopic=45327&st=345&p=1289343&#entry1289343

[ycchen]

You guys are such hypocrites..... One of you tells me that when you see me / us start to shut down the out of control sites you will believe we are serious about running this as a real business. I have started that continuous process with the full blessing and activities of my management and our legal team. Meanwhile, we are getting shot at by Arzel, saying that this is what happens just before we go bust !!!! WRONG !!!! JimSouthworth, are you calling me hypocrite? Urging the kanosis executives to seriously deal with those pyramid-builder is just one of our dozen questions with the kanosis business model!

We (at least I am) glad that kanosis takes the first step to stop part of the pyramid-building effort but it does not seems that kanosis executives are committed to abondon its pyramid-style business model now or in the later time. What kanosis did was mere prohibit members from advertise their pyramid-building effort publicly.

As a anti-pyramid/ponzi forum, we will assure you that we will continue to monitor and evaluate kanosis as a way to provide second opinion for those who want to join kanosis now or in the future.

[ycchen]

Jim, this is exactly what I am talking about (also PM you). Kanosis business model remains the same (still a pyramid-style recruiting) except that the pyramid builders cannot build their downline publicly, but hey, they can still do it privately! :shake:

See the most recent advertisement on MMG.
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=45327&view=findpost&p=1375895

I agree. This is crazy to throttle discussion here of all places. If the company didn't want us to TALK about Kanosis, they wouldn't have marketing prelaunch for pete's sake.

Pyrogirl just raised some concerns that we have in the back of our minds concerning matrix programs. No crime in that.

I don't want to go all rah rah, so I'll take a moderate stance and say I think Kanosis has potential - pretty darn good potential. I'm using the product, liking it, and think it has a fair value. I'm **hoping** others will feel the same way. And that's why I think it will succeed (with or without a matrix structure).

If anyone is interested in Kanosis, send me a PM - I'll be more than happy to chat about it. Our group (many people here) is continuing to add members and passing down signups so others get their two. It's slightly more laborious since we don't have our own replicated websites, but it's the only way we have to sign people up now. It's also good to actually know your team members on a more personal level (and we're trying to have fun while we're at it!) thumbup(1).gif

To everyone's success!
Pix smile.gif

[james_oak]

I hold flowmaster responsible for my edited "Testimonial," because if he's going to make people pay him to be their "leader", he had better damn well make sure his "followers" get their "facts" straight. Feel free to edit or remove my remarks, but my feelings remain the same.

Maybe that's not fair, but as for me I am now sick of the whole thing. I feel like I walked down an alleyway, saw something suspicious, reported it with mixed reservations, and ended up having my words edited to exonerate the prime suspect.

What gets me the most riled up is that they had to dig so deep that my "Testimonial" was the only new material they could come up with. When I talked to Jim on Feb. 19, there was a sense of urgency that more material would be provided in the coming days. In fact, I pointed out a grammatical error that needed to be fixed on their web site, and not even *that* has been fixed.

Look, I'm no expert, but I know how to write a press release and that's not even my "field." Jim has defended himself by saying he's not the PR guy; well, who is the PR guy and why isn't HE the one defending the product, or writing a more substantial release that loyal Kanosians can propagate, with those pesky things like DETAILS or an explanation of the interface? Why are they so desperate for technical credibility that people jumping on the Kanosis bandwagon have to bias my clearly reserved summary and turn it into a glowing testimonial? Is no-one else USING the product actually able to write three comprehensible words ABOUT it? It's so backwards it makes me want to punch things.

And yes, kanosisfacts.com is so bad it makes me want to punch things some more. Chances are it's a site that will be shut down, but still...what the...?

I no longer care that they're in Beta - their business model is so upside-down and sideways they *should* have their own people, much less a third party periodically review COIL, just to add some technical credibility. There are established channels for getting the word out on good products. If they believe COIL is that incredible, they should let someone who can differentiate their mouse from their keyboard take a look at it. They can get free advertising and credible recognition at the same time by submitting their software for review. This isn't rocket science.

Thanks Ycchen for the offer to periodically come back and offer my expertise, but I'd rather not spend the effort to write something credible only to have it twisted for whomever as they see fit. Plus I don't consider myself an expert. This kind of thing makes me want to quit the business altogether, grab a surfboard even though I don't know how to surf, and say, "To hell with it!" Hence my donation. You may act like overzealous cops sometimes (Jim does have a point about trying to shut down false advertising and getting reamed by you for it), but I can respect what you're trying to do. I sure as hell can't do it.

I have a Bible verse to cap off my feelings about the whole thing in general. Amazingly, it's not quoted out of context.

"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction."
- 1st Timothy 6:9

My final thoughts: technology's touted Holy Grail is that it will make life easier and simpler. That's why I'm a big advocate for open source software. If Kanosis really is interested in (and now *I* quote), "do(ing) our part by providing you with amazing new software technology and with a business model that shares the economic benefit with each and every participant," they'd freeze the charges on their software until they're out of Beta (like what Google does with Gmail). That's a measly $44,000/mo. with 2,000 subscribers, which should be pocket change for a company that's been developing their software for the past six years.

Ugh. The more I think about it, the more my head hurts. I gotta' let this one go.

[Webwatch]

Another one of my observations and predictions.

It is now my belief that a critical phase is being approached when members of kanosis (those that are in it for the money not the product) will need to re-start a channel of communication in order to keep new sign ups in their downline happy and recruit new ones.

As the development of any pyramid structure is dependant on new members and the co-operation of existing members in order for it to survive we may now see the MMG forum springing back into life as the advertising restriction (as per Kanosis terms and conditions) will prove self destructive for the growth of Kanosis and its continued success. Whether this will mean a sudden official launch and all advertisng restrictions lifted only time will tell.

As the google ads are still running the advertising restriction only seems limited to forums which the habitual ponzi players wont like and may dare I say it vote in a new leader of the forum in order to keep their downlines growing.

I hope this does not prove to be the case and the success of Coil will be more benefitial to the Kanosis team than any pyramid selling structure it is dependant on or we may all witness the implosion of Kanosis which many pyramid schemes (not that I'm saying kanosis is one) have experienced.

Any new company's success is dependant on reccomendations from current customers as well as a successfull advertising method which makes advertising restrictions even more puzzling (maybe thats just me).

[Ferret]

The coil software requires you to upload your whole computer to their secure serversif I understand it correctly
I have 8 computers and one of them has 500 GB used on it
How much space are they giving you?

This will limit actual users to those that have broadband even if users are only uploading 10 GB which is a bare minimum these days

Kanosis mentions that their servers are as secure as a bank which they would need to be if I was to trust them with my information and files

The way Kanosis is marketing itself as a matrix scheme and the lack of transparency of the company would never let me trust them
Besides the fact that they are a matrix scheme makes me think they may crash in 6 or more months and then what happens to my info?

As I work out of one location and don't travel for business I really don't have a need to have my files kept online
I will keep backing up my own data, etc

I have read the Kanosis website, their FAQ, listened to their audio presentation, read other websites about them, etc and the whole thing smells like a scam to me
There are many signs and red flags that would take pages to detail them all
This is NOT the way a legitimate business starts up

They like other scams compare themself to Google, Skype, eBay etc

Google and Skype not only had a great service that worked better than anything else available at the time
They provided them for FREE and still do
If their service didn't work they would never have been as sucessfull as they are today
Who knows how well COIL works or even all that it does?

Time will tell.........

[concerned]

The coil software requires you to upload your whole computer to their secure serversif I understand it correctly
I have 8 computers and one of them has 500 GB used on it
How much space are they giving you?


Here is my question reguarding COIL as I understand it, and I probably don't understand COIL since there isn't any information about it. Anyway, as I see it, COIL is software that allows you to have remote access to someone's files. Hasn't anyone ever heard of a VPN? VPN stands for Virtual Private Network, and gives more security than someone else does. Why copy your information and make a management nightmare, when all you have to do is create a VPN.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/7/lang/english/onlinesignup
Sign Up Today! Learn why!

By Registering with Kanosis

you join a thriving, online community who you can easily interact with for business and pleasure
you gain access to exciting new technologies that are easy to use
you receive an online bank account, a debit card and a way to get paid online
you receive free secure storage of your important computer based information
you receive access to games and entertainment
an amazing organizational system with SMS reminders
a free secure, spam-filtered email account
AND YOU MAKE MONEY AS OTHERS WHO YOU WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PARTICIPATE!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:lol: Everyone should realise that the capitalised info is what Kanosis thinks is the most important and is what they are emphasising

How The Kanosis Payment Matrix Works is the 2nd page
The Product (VERY) Brief Feature List is the 3rd page

They give very little info about the actual product COIL and a lot about how they are marketing it......and how you will make $$$$$$$$$
They say in the flash presentation how you can get $1.10 a month from 32,766 people even though that is against what they say in the FAQ
You must also be careful on how you present the product. It is not a get rich quick scheme. It is a legitimate business opportunity and must be presented as such. You must not make financial inducements to people to join the business. For example you cannot say ”if you join this company you will make $30,000 a month”.

Not very likely and what if you aren't in the top of that 32,000 people pyramid

They have signed up people for 2 months for $44 to use BETA software and services with only promises for the future
I would only use BETA services for FREE

Smells like a Scam to me

The COIL offering has been valued at over $100 a seat per month in the corporate market place.
I would like to know what Corps are using this and who valued it at over $100 a seat

you receive free secure storage and a free secure, spam-filtered email account
They don't even say how much storage you are getting....
You are paying $22 a month so why are they saying its free?
Sounds like something a Scammer would say

I would advise any potential "investors" to read the website very carefully and do a LOT more research before getting into this one

If they already have 2000 users it seems the top of the matrix is already filled out anyway

[mpatient24]

Actually, funny you say that. When you tell the speculators to post in the forums to stop spreading information, you aren't doing yourself any good. All you have done is shown the true intentions of your "business" dealings. Why wouldn't you have done what other "legitimate businesses" would have done in situations like that. Usually they request legal action against a place where the advertisments look like the site is a scam. Instead, you told the people to just keep quiet. While working with the same people promoting your "legitimate business" as a pyramid scheme just shows you are in agreement with their style, and are just asking them to keep quiet to try to prove your point to us. Not very smart.

I don't know why there are so many separate threads going on, and I know this is a post that was done a while back but I do feel the need to comment on the remarks being made about what information Kanosis is allowing us to give. As of today I did sign up and so am privy to that in the member's area, though I haven't gotten to review it all yet.

Even prior to joining I checked with Jim to find out if he or Kanosis would have a problem with my posting pictures of the software, or discussing details once I becane a member. He told me to go for it. What they are trying to put an end to is the inaccurate information that is circling, as well as those people out there that are just "recruiting" rather than SELLING the product as it is meant. As you can imagine it is difficult to keep control over that many individuals.

(i.e.) Creative Memories prohibits consultants from selling their products on ebay, in any type of retail location includng mall kiosks, trade shows, etc. Yet people try it all the time, and in fact, type that into an ebay search and see how many hits you get.

[mpatient24]

I see this thread did end in Feb. I'm sorry for starting it back up again here. Don't respond here please.

[Arzel]

I don't know why there are so many separate threads going on, and I know this is a post that was done a while back but I do feel the need to comment on the remarks being made about what information Kanosis is allowing us to give. As of today I did sign up and so am privy to that in the member's area, though I haven't gotten to review it all yet.

Even prior to joining I checked with Jim to find out if he or Kanosis would have a problem with my posting pictures of the software, or discussing details once I becane a member. He told me to go for it. What they are trying to put an end to is the inaccurate information that is circling, as well as those people out there that are just "recruiting" rather than SELLING the product as it is meant. As you can imagine it is difficult to keep control over that many individuals.

(i.e.) Creative Memories prohibits consultants from selling their products on ebay, in any type of retail location includng mall kiosks, trade shows, etc. Yet people try it all the time, and in fact, type that into an ebay search and see how many hits you get.

The point you bring up is one of the inherent problems with MLM's in general, and something I refer as an inequity of balance or an unbounded equation.

Since ther is no real incentive NOT to recruit it will always be the optimal solution. However it is an unbounded solution in that your objective is to simply recruit an infinate number of people.

If there are any Integer or Linear Programming people in these threads, they would immediately recognize my line of thought, and thus see that the dual problem is infeasible (which is why pryamids schemes always fail). Of course failure in this sense is a little different since there are actual physical constraints on the actual number of people available to recruit, but in the design of the model it is assumed that their are none by the model designers, or that if their is, the don't concern themselves with it.

But I digress, and back to the original point. Why would any member of an MLM not recruit? The only way for this not to take place is to reduce the incentive to recruit. For Kanosis, there is only one incentive, and that is to get as many people as possible in your downline. The game theory model indicates that to "win" you must do this faster than anyone else before you bump up against the constraint of available people to recruit. And the fastest way to do this is to promote the money making aspect of being a member.

You are already seeing this. Even though they have directed against advertising Kanosis during the pre-lauch, a quick google search brings up more and more referral links. Before long you will have thousands of referral links being advertised all over the places as each member tries to fill their downline as quickly as possible.

And yes I realise their is a limit to downline of ~32,000 people, but for all practical reasons it is basicall to recruit as many people as possible, and my modeling thus far indicates that even in a very full matrix almost noone will accomplish this feat, even with 10 million members I cannot model the top peson to be able to completely fill their matrix.

[Arzel]

Previous comment moved to other thread.

Plus I closed this thread to keep the discussion in one thread.

[concerned]

What they are trying to put an end to is the inaccurate information that is circling, as well as those people out there that are just "recruiting" rather than SELLING the product as it is meant. As you can imagine it is difficult to keep control over that many individuals.


If you don't start a badly designed MLM/"potential pyramid scheme" in the first place, it WOULDN'T be dificult to control it.