Kanosis Anyone - Part 2

[Arzel]

This is a continuation of the first Kanosis thread (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=36662#post36662), which has become quite long. Please continue the discussion here.

Thanks.

[Ferret]

We don't have to hide anything like you do your own identity Ferret.
What does this badly phrased sentence have to do with anything?


Michael Diamond sent the attached mesage to Jason McDowell. This was the person that you said was a top seller of Herbalife products who had never heard of Steve. Jason had told you that he knew who Michael Diamond was so this should shut down any question about what Steve's role was at Herbalife….. Obviously feel free to verify, but lets talk about more productive subjects…. The new web page with our management team Bio’s has been through final check and should post today or tomorrow.
Click on the link to hear Steve Whittington say that he took over as the founding President of Herbalife when the company was still working out of a little retail outlet
Kanosis conference call with Steve Whittington (http://www.houseofgodsglory.com/Kanosis%202-10.mp3)
Steve also said that he has since bought Michael Diamond into Kanosis

That disqualifies him as being an "objective" reference about Steve Whittington as he now has an interest in Kanosis and is "Steves" buddy

Steve Whittington says that Herbalife still holds the record of being the fastest growing company in the US from his tenure
Steve claims that Kanosis will break that record

Where is the documentation that supports the claim of holding this record?


Steve was introduced to me in 1983 by Mark Hughes as the first executive of Herbalife with international experience, he having worked as a senior executive for American corporations in Asia. Steve was appointed the President and CEO of the Herbalife Group.

We started working together with the opening of Australia, New Zealand and set the basis for the proper establishment in UK then on to Spain as the gateway to the subsequent openings throughout Europe.

I enjoyed a close relationship with Steve who introduced senior external executives into Herbalife which helped to set the foundation for its future growth.

After he left Herbalife we have continued to work together in other commercial and personal ventures and have remained close associates since that time.

Michael S. Diamond
Shouldn't Michael have disclosed in this letter that he is "employed" by Kanosis now?
What is his relationship with Kanosis?

Michael says Steve was appointed the President and CEO of the Herbalife Group.

When was he appointed?

Who appointed him?

Why is there no mention of this online or documented anywhere else?

Where is this documented if it does exist?

Who was the President before him?

Who took over from Steve?

When did he leave Herbalife?

Why did he leave? There was mention of a disagreement
What happened?

If you read Jasons website you will know Herbalife has a very "interesting " history that will make a great Movie
http://www.yourbetterfuture.com/herbalstrife1.htm

Please give us more detail about Steves tenure with Herbalife

When is Steve coming to this forum to answer some questions directly?
The conference call above is the only direct statement that can be found from him

Thanks for any answers to my many questions

I probably missed some important ones, but I am sure that all present and future Kanosians will like to know more about the Top Man in Kanosis who seems to be the impetus for the Matrix model Kanosis has adapted for their "Pandemic Marketing" ( Coined by Alistair Kildey in your conference calls)

[mpatient24]

I haven't had time to read the posts other than to discover that the thread has moved, or to make any replies. I will work on catching up starting tomorrow. Tonight, I had a happy hour, and have had a bit too much to drink. =) Anyhow, here are today's numbers.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 18
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4533

[ycchen]

If "Alistair Kildey" is the major executives, I expect to see his bio on the kanosis.com soon. Is he from Herbalife too?

It is funny and irony that anyone would still use "herbalife" model to sell anything given all the negative publicity herbalife received in recent years.

I am sure those who are interested in the software itself won't borther, only those (I am pretty sure that the majority of kanosisian at this stage are in for the money) who believe kanosis as an get-rich/passive income opportunity will be interested in herbalife model where "front row seat" matters!

Pyramid recruitn g is all about whether one can recruit two dynamic downlines who can recruit all the rest of the downlines, so these early birds can sit back, relax and make money in their pajamas. lol :shake:

[Webwatch]

This Herbalife/Kanosis connection seems strange to me, if Mr Whittington was the one who grew the company from $1million to $77million turnover does that mean he was the instigator/designer of the MLM Herbalife marketing stratergy.

Not something I'd be proud of, although no-doubt there are many success stories (especially for Herbalife themselves).
Will we soon be seing a barage of Bumper Stickers/Flyers advertising Kanosis albeit under the guise of "Make $$$ Working from Home Call 08 etc etc".

One thing that is mentioned is that Mr Whittington supposedly left Herbalife due to a disagreement on ethical grounds, but its not clear who had the dodgy ethics.

Just an observation based on the information available not intended as an attack on Mr Whittington, but as always he's welcome to come here and clarify.

Also, thanks Mpatient for keeping us up to date on the Kanoisis sign up activity, anything to report on coil and its applications and how usefull you have found them.

[Ferret]

This Herbalife/Kanosis connection seems strange to me, if Mr Whittington was the one who grew the company from $1million to $77million turnover does that mean he was the instigator/designer of the MLM Herbalife marketing stratergy
http://www.herbalife.com/hl/templates/templatepreportal/herbalife/company/history.jsp

The 1980s

1980
Mark Hughes launches Herbalife in February 1980, selling the "original" weight-loss program straight from the trunk of his car!

1982
Herbalife goes international as it opens in Canada, and dozens more countries will soon follow. Meanwhile, sales are already topping the $2 million mark and climbing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1983 Steve Whittington started at Herbalife in 1983 as the founding President?

1985 Steve Whittington left Herbalife over ethical concerns?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1986
Herbalife opens trading on the NASDAQ exchange. Jim Rohn brings his motivational inspiration to the Company, and two new Formula 1 Protein Drink flavors are introduced: Chocolate and Strawberry.

1988
The company expands internationally with breathtaking speed, so much so that four Extravaganzas take place around the world, including events in the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Canada.

The 1990s

1992
Cutting-edge products launch and monthly sales soar from $3.1 million to an impressive $21 million!
My understanding was Steve Whittington started at Herbalife in 1983 as the founding President and left in 1985 over ethical concerns

According to Herbalife's website their sales didn't even hit $21 million until 1992

How can a claim be made that Steve Whittington took Herbalife's sales from $1 million to $77 million?

Steve Whittington said on a Kanosis Call that Herbalife still holds the record of being the fastest growing company in the US from his tenure

Was this based on the INC magazines list?
If not, where is the documentation to back this claim up?

I am sure this is just a misunderstanding and that Steve can quickly clear this up
Thanks

[nepatriots]

http://www.herbalife.com/hl/templates/templatepreportal/herbalife/company/history.jsp

According to Herbalife's website their sales didn't even hit $21 million until 1992

How can a claim be made that Steve Whittington took Herbalife's sales from $1 million to $77 million?

I am sure this is just a misunderstanding and that Steve can quickly clear this up
Thanks
Not knowing much more than what you posted here... I would venture to say that Steve could have taken sales to 77 million in a YEAR in the early days. What Herbalife says is that their sales hit $21 million per MONTH... please do us the favor of not twisting things for your own benefit.

[Ferret]

Not knowing much more than what you posted here... I would venture to say that Steve could have taken sales to 77 million in a YEAR in the early days. What Herbalife says is that their sales hit $21 million per MONTH... please do us the favor of not twisting things for your own benefit.
Please read more carefully, I am not twisting anything..........
1992
Cutting-edge products launch and monthly sales soar from $3.1 million to an impressive $21 million!
$3.1 million a month = $37.2 million a year and this was in 1992 seven years after Steve Whittington left Herbalife

The claim was that Steve Whittington took Herbalife's sales from $1 million to $77 million

The claim was that Herbalife still holds the record of being the fastest growing company in the US from his tenure starting 1983 to 1985

[ycchen]

Great finding, Ferret. Let's keep the conversation/debate going. I just wish there are more kanosis executivies or spokepersons (not just Jim, I am sure he would feel more comfortable working on technical stuff) would come here to answer some of the questions. :)

[Arzel]

I see the money making aspect of Kanosis is still a primary reason for joining. Even after everything that Jim has said.

you join a thriving, online community who you can easily interact with for business and pleasure
you gain access to exciting new technologies that are easy to use
you receive an online bank account, a debit card and a way to get paid online
you receive free secure storage of your important computer based information
you receive access to games and entertainment
an amazing organizational system with SMS reminders
a free secure, spam-filtered email account
AND YOU MAKE MONEY AS OTHERS WHO YOU WERE DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PARTICIPATE!!!

I have also yet to recieve the information regarding matrix numbers to which Jim had said he would supply two weeks ago.

It would seem little has really changed. There are still several valid question regarding the links to Herbalife, (I am also interested in how many Herbalife members were granted prime top level positions in the matrix), plus they still continue to push the aspect of making money. Even though Jim himself has acknowledged that 90% of their customers will never make more than it costs to be a member.

Furthermore, why is it that the main Kanosis page have a pre-filled affiliate already? How is this even possible?

Until Kanosis can clean up this wording and remove completely this notion that its members will make money simply by being a member I will consider Kanosis to be nothing more than a clever pryamid scheme from which most people will be simply handing their money over to those at the top of the Kanosis matrix.

[ycchen]

Just to confirm that I did not make up the number: 77 millions per month. (see quote from Jim Southworth below).

If that is the case, then making 22 millions per month in 1992 is only 1/3 of that archieved by Stephen Whittington 8-9 years ago. :eek:

Is that impossible? Not sure. I guess we need some credible person to confirm this "fact" or "hype". Well, if Kanosis executive things this "fact finding" question is BS. Fine. We will let Kanosis members and prospects make their own judegement. ;)

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showpost.php?p=35001&postcount=228

YCChen,
And if you find some of the other media stories from that time frame you would find that after growing the company (Herbalife) from about $1 million a month when he started to over $77 Million a month he had a serious diagreement on professional ethics with the BoD Chairman and left the company rather than compromise his own reputation or the financial situation of the customers and investors. Dig deep enough and you will find that the Chair was then about a year later called before congress to testify on the practices the Chairman had instituted that Steve left rather than allow to continue. As the SEC document you are quoting shows, he has had also an amazingly successful and credible career since than as well and has actually come out of semi-retirement to guide Kanosis through our initial explosive growth.

The only "evidence" on the internet that link Stephen Whittington to Herbalife is the SEC document below. Remember, he was the founding president!

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2002/12/16/0001075793-02-000569/Section7.asp

Mr. Stephen Whittington was appointed as our chief executive officer on October 1, 2002. Mr. Whittington's background consists of more than twenty years of senior management experience during which period Mr. Whittington has served as chief executive officer -- Far East and Pacific for Uniroyal Inc. and also as the founding president of Herbalife International Inc. During 1973 - 1974, he was a member of the United States Trade Mission to Japan, representing the automotive industry. He has also been recognized in the Hong Kong annual publication "Who's Who in Hong Kong," which recognizes distinguished executives in Hong Kong. Currently Mr. Whittington serves as a director on the board of various companies in the United States and abroad. He is also the chief executive officer of Whittington Industries, LLC and Managing Partner of Oakbridge Capital Partners, LLC, both of which are private firms.

[Webwatch]

The discussion maybe getting a bit one sided but we need some more Kanosians to put their mouth where their money is and defend Kanosis, if this is possible.

This is getting a bit to easy and the questions surrounding Mr Whittington's credentials aren't helping Kanosis, I can't believe any new company would be so dumb as to mislead customers by overspinning its founder members credentials.

Jim has always defended the Coil product but no one seems to be capable of defending the Pyramid Scheme argument.

Maybe Kanosis has issued a statement that none of its members are to comment in this Forum. This is a normal occurence for any Pyramid Cult wanting to control the hearts and minds of its followers.

$59 for joining a cult, that money would have been better spent on a night out.


F.A.Q.
Is Kanosis Pyramid selling?
(Silly Pyramids are to heavy comment removed)
Yes at the moment we are.
We need to use this Pre-Launch phase to get as many members as possible into the matrix to fund our scheme.

Can I advertise Kanois to build my downline ?

We have to protect ourselves by hiding a No Advertising statement in our pre-launch terms and conditions but we have placed this at the bottom so not everyone will find it.

Will I reach Financial Independance by building My Downline?

This will depend on how hard you promote Kanosis, the good thing is though is that the harder you work the more you will receive. You will need 20 members to break even. Thats great for us also because we get more money from your efforts.

Can I make more money than those above me in my downline?

Don't be silly who ever referred you will always be taking a cut of your sign ups money as well as yours. You may however be able to make more than those who joined before you who no longer promote Kanosis or pay their minimum cv value per month as they have realised a mistake has been made.

Is Kanosis Legal ?
A tricky one this, but don't worry no one will ever call us on it, as its so hard to differentiate between a legal MLM and an illegal Pyramid Scheme.

Is Kanosis Moral and Ethical ?
No Comment

How do I join ?
Simply find a referal id enter it in the box on the sign up page then send us your $59 and your in the Pyramid. Type Kanosis into Google this should throw up some Ponzi players adverts on the right handside to join under. Watch out for other schemes that know what we are up to and have used Kanosis as a keyword.

[nepatriots]

This is getting a bit to easy and the questions surrounding Mr Whittington's credentials aren't helping Kanosis, I can't believe any new company would be so dumb as to mislead customers by overspinning its founder members credentials.
As far as I am concerned the question about Mr. Whittingtons credentials has been answered. Michael Diamond, who everyone can agree was a part of Herbalife for many years, confirmed that Steve was the President and CEO of the company. End of story.

Even Ferret’s buddy Jason McDowell, who we all know as a top seller at Herbalife at one time, confirmed that he knew Michael Diamond. JimSouthworth brought us a credible person who confirmed Steves identity… we asked for it, he brought it, and OF COURSE it’s STILL not good enough.

I can see why JimSouthworth is probably getting a bit tired of spinning his wheels here. There may be other legitimate questions out there about Kanosis but it seems to me that this one can be laid to rest.

[Webwatch]

Originally Posted by Webwatch
This is getting a bit to easy and the questions surrounding Mr Whittington's credentials aren't helping Kanosis, I can't believe any new company would be so dumb as to mislead customers by overspinning its founder members credentials.
I should have used achievements instead of credentials but I agree it maybe time to focus on other matters, as a sinking ship is still a sinking ship no matter who the captain is (probably a bad comparison this, sorry).

Still no argument against Kanosis at the moment being nothing more than a Pyramid Scheme.

[ycchen]

As far as I am concerned the question about Mr. Whittingtons credentials has been answered. Michael Diamond, who everyone can agree was a part of Herbalife for many years, confirmed that Steve was the President and CEO of the company. End of story.

Even Ferret’s buddy Jason McDowell, who we all know as a top seller at Herbalife at one time, confirmed that he knew Michael Diamond. JimSouthworth brought us a credible person who confirmed Steves identity… we asked for it, he brought it, and OF COURSE it’s STILL not good enough.

I can see why JimSouthworth is probably getting a bit tired of spinning his wheels here. There may be other legitimate questions out there about Kanosis but it seems to me that this one can be laid to rest. nepatriots, I am not sure if you are aware of the important of Herbalife in the corporate history.

EVERONE knows Mark Hughes was the founder and CEO of Herbalife. That's written in stone. When you have another gentleman who also claimed (might be legitimate) to be founding president and CEO of Herbal life, then it is very confusing to most people INCLUDING current and Ex-herbalife's people. Unless Herbalife has a different corporate structure that permit two founding presidents and two CEOs at the same time!

Don't forget, Steve is the one who claim to be able to replicate Herbalife "miracle" (1 million a month to 77 million!) with Kanosis. If he did not claim that, then his experience with Herbalife is probably not that important. As for Michael Diamond, he is also the executive (correct me if I am wrong) of Kanosis. As Ferret had said, may be we need someone who is impartial to verify Steve's past archievement in Herbalife.

Jason McDowell knows Michael Diamond but not the founding president and CEO of Herbalife? :eek: Isn't that a bit strange? I don't quite get it.

However, I do agree with you that the "pyramid" part of the Kanosis is more detrimental then the herbalife stuff. :)

[mpatient24]

Okay... I don't have time to go back and respond to everything I've missed over the last week. So.. I will post today's findings (as of 3am), and a few opinions.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 5
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4682

I agree that there are still some valid questions, however, I also think that there could be some very plausible answers to all of the questions. Just out of curiosity... who on this board has picked up the phone and personally spoken to Jim?

I wouldn't mind an answer to the Steve Whittington issue myself, but... I'm still willing to give them time to get his bios up on the site.

With regards to the MLM... I've known of too many successful ones... that are still successful today to just outright say they are all scams. I will refresh those that are just now reading on the ones that come to mind... Creative Memories, Quixtar, Mary Kay, and AdvoCare to name a few. That's not including HerbaLife which is still on the market and available in your local Walgreens today. I think that the way they've structured the MLM could mean a lot more people on the bottom will make more money that with the traditional "pyramid".

As far a my reviews on COIL, I still haven't had much time to explore the whole thing in depth... I've spent more time on this forum than I have on COIL, but I'm not signing anybody up at this point either... =) My friend that is going to review it hasn't had much time either. I'm working on it.

With regards to the webspace they have, I do have some additional thoughts however. I wasn't as impressed as I expected to be with it. COIL I think has some really cool aspects and good potential from what I've seen of it, but I was under the impression that the webspace/boards would be comparable to myspace.com, or livejournal. As far as they go it's a lot more like the guestbook on my wedding website. You post your pictures, put in your bio, and people can post on your page. But you can't reply to their posts. You have to actually click on their bio link and put in a comment on their page if you want to reply. Basically it means you can't carry on a running convo about one topic unless you email or chat. The pages aren't customizable with the exception of your pictures and bio. I have been told however that, that will eventually change. We will see.

For the apologies I've read... Thanks and all is good. For the Thank You's... Thank You! =)

[mpatient24]

I found an article searching Kanosis on Google as I periodically do, and I found this article posted on searchwarp.com. I admittedly don't know anything about that website, so please don't bite my head off, but I'm going to post it to see if anybody has any thoughts on it.

Subject: Kanosis - A Scam or the Next Generation in Internet Security. It is not an exaggeration to say that, to look at the internet today, is to look at the wild wild west of virtual reality. You open an email and you are in danger of picking up a computer virus. You download something that looks interesting and you get a “Trojan Horse”. You respond to a nice looking add and you fall victim to a phishing scam. It is enough to drive one crazy. Not only is there no sheriff in this virtual reality recreation of the wild west, there does not seem to be any law whatsoever.

Is there an answer to this dilemma? Some experts contend that there is. The creation of what I would call “Internet Security Societies” (ISS).

An ISS provider would implement a tracing software, so that all interactions within their and other ISS providers’ environments would be totally traceable. There will be complete and personal accountability for all activities on the internet. If you got a piece of malware during your surfing, you could call your ISS provider and they would give you a complete report of where and who did the planting. As long as you only interact with approved members of an ISS provider, you would be assured of such complete accountability.

Does such a concept seem far fetched to you? Consider the fax machine. It must have been quite a job selling the first few fax machines while nobody else in the market place owned one. And yet the technology proved itself, it filled a real need. Today you cannot seriously consider starting a business without a fax machine in the office. Nobody would take you seriously.

The concept of the Internet Security Society has the same potential today. It promises to bring some sorely needed order in the wild world of the internet. However, the tracing software is a mammoth task. The successful implementation of the concept is by no means an easy thing. Considering the enormous numbers involved in the daily internet activities of potentially millions of members, makes such a task seem unattainable. And yet, if it is accomplished it will fill the tremendous need for order on the internet.

Kanosis makes the claim that is has developed the software to accomplish this task. The center piece of their software is called “The Coil”. If it proves that it can deliver, it will be the next giant of the internet. If not, somebody else will step in to provide for this need. Some present giants of the internet are working on the development of such software.

In any case, whether it is Kanosis or somebody else who first delivers in such a lofty undertaking, the undeniable facts dictate: Just hold on to your wallets. There is another monthly bill on the horizon if you want to remain active and be considered legitimate on the internet.

I just found it interesting. Also... anybody know anything about pagellan.com? They are promoting Kanosis and... Got-Zip?

See ya'll later!

[Webwatch]

Hello Mpatient,
Thank you for taking the time to continue the discussion.
Regarding your first question-I haven't spoken to Jim on the phone yet. I intend to in the future (providing he will speak to me after this discussion).

As its 3am where you are I'll keep this brief and thanks again for your posts.
Catch you on the flipside (as someone said, CB'ers i think). :)

[mpatient24]

Hello Mpatient,
Thank you for taking the time to continue the discussion.
Regarding your first question-I haven't spoken to Jim on the phone yet. I intend to in the future (providing he will speak to me after this discussion).

As its 3am where you are I'll keep this brief and thanks again for your posts.
Catch you on the flipside (as someone said, CB'ers i think). :)

I've enjoyed posting on this site. I'm sure that Jim will be happy to speak with you, and perhaps answer some of those questions. It is generally easier to verbalize certain aspects of anything that has an enormous amount of detail. I recommend picking up the phone. I look forward to seeing everybody's replies and thoughts to my latest posts.

[mpatient24]

I got an email from Steve Van Zutphen the other day, one of the co-founders of Kanosis, and I thought I'd share his response. I sent an email suggesting they add a videochat feature. I don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of videochat, especially with my family spread out all over the country, and it's great when it works, but it seems like there's a problem with either the audio or video on one side or the other every time. With the COIL platform, I was thinking Kanosis has a real opportunity to get it right. Something no one else has been able to do. It was exciting to get such a sincere and timely response! Here it is: "Hi Jon.... thanks for the input. Very good ideas. On May 1st, you will see the production version of COIL -- much sleeker, faster, etc. What you see now is extremely rough! We do have the perfect environment for video, parental control, etc. and those are projects that are on deck. We have 30 projects to complete before May 1st however, but in the next batch, at least one or two of those you mentioned should be included. The forums are going up on May 1st to capture all these great ideas from our members as well. Thanks for joining us, and be patient while we ramp this up -- corporate market version coming soon as well (you can probably tell that COIL was originally intended for that market!).Best Regards,Steve Van ZutphenProduct

I found that on another forum... just info if anybody wants it. One of my best friend's uses video chats with her family. So her Mom can see the kids opening presents on birthdays, things like that. She's always complaining about when it doesn't work.

[Arzel]

I found that on another forum... just info if anybody wants it. One of my best friend's uses video chats with her family. So her Mom can see the kids opening presents on birthdays, things like that. She's always complaining about when it doesn't work.

Thanks mpatient24 for your continued information. The email you posted brings back an initial question about COIL.


I got an email from Steve Van Zutphen the other day, one of the co-founders of Kanosis, and I thought I'd share his response. I sent an email suggesting they add a videochat feature. I don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of videochat, especially with my family spread out all over the country, and it's great when it works, but it seems like there's a problem with either the audio or video on one side or the other every time. With the COIL platform, I was thinking Kanosis has a real opportunity to get it right. Something no one else has been able to do. It was exciting to get such a sincere and timely response! Here it is: "Hi Jon.... thanks for the input. Very good ideas. On May 1st, you will see the production version of COIL -- much sleeker, faster, etc. What you see now is extremely rough! We do have the perfect environment for video, parental control, etc. and those are projects that are on deck. We have 30 projects to complete before May 1st however, but in the next batch, at least one or two of those you mentioned should be included. The forums are going up on May 1st to capture all these great ideas from our members as well. Thanks for joining us, and be patient while we ramp this up -- corporate market version coming soon as well (you can probably tell that COIL was originally intended for that market!).Best Regards,Steve Van ZutphenProduct

Here you can see confirmation from one the lead designers of COIL and founder of Kanosis stating that COIL is indeed not at production level, and is indeed a beta product.

Yet, Jim has stated many times that COIL was production.


5. Why is Kanosis charging for beta versions?

Because we are charging for the use on non-bete products such as Coil which even under our licensing agreement cost Kanosis usage fees. Coil is not beta as several other software modules integrated into Kanosis are not beta as well.... it is their integration into the Kanosis service offering that is Beta.

6. Why is there a lack of documentation on the Coil software?

because the enterprise versions of Coil are not the final "look" and "feel" of the version that has been being developed for final release with the Kanosis service offering by launch date. The cosmetics and the context sensitive help facilities are being developed as we speak... there is a new version of the Kanosis product being readied now for near future release.



Which brings back the point of why is Kanosis charging for a beta product? I know Jim has not posted in a while, but I do hope he can answer this question, which is really a foundation for why many people feel Kanosis to be nothing more than a pryamid scheme.

I am also waiting for the numbers which Jim said he would provide.

[mpatient24]

Here you can see confirmation from one the lead designers of COIL and founder of Kanosis stating that COIL is indeed not at production level, and is indeed a beta product.

Yet, Jim has stated many times that COIL was production.

Which brings back the point of why is Kanosis charging for a beta product? I know Jim has not posted in a while, but I do hope he can answer this question, which is really a foundation for why many people feel Kanosis to be nothing more than a pryamid scheme.

I am also waiting for the numbers which Jim said he would provide. My understanding is that it's the integration of COIL and what is available within Kanosis and the community that is BETA. So the version that Kanosians are using is BETA only because it is being integrated for use in the global environment. I understand that COIL is already being used on a production level for some law offices that the time accounting software part of COIL was originally developed for pre-Kanosis. The projects they are working to add, won't be just for COIL, they will be part of the Kanosis Community. All of the additions they are planning will not necessarily be available with the COIL basic package when it becomes available to the open public.

I'm sure that as they are integrating COIL with the community and other aspects of Kanosis they are finding ways that the software can be improved. Software already at production level get updates all the time. Why should COIL be any different? I do know they are asking for lots of feedback, and I was told today that the public forums in the member area will be up soon. When they go up, I'll let you know what people are most asking for.

JMO

On another note... I was talking to a client of mine that is in computer technology for a large U.S. company. I discussed Kanosis and COIL with her, and she was actually really positive about it. I read her the ISS article I posted here also, and she told me that there is definately a need, and that there has been a lot of talk regarding the need for ISS. She'd never heard of Kanosis before but checked the website and stuff while we were on the phone. I gave her my COIL passwords so she can check it out. Hopefully she will be faster giving me her review than my other friend was. She was also going to pass the information to a friend of hers that has a lot more experience on the internet security, and java platform side of things. I believe she said he was also a programmer. I'm hoping to get something back on that in the next week or so.

Here are tonight's numbers... I'm off to bed.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 14
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4711

[mpatient24]

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick [mailto:patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 1:09 PM
To: Nicole xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: FW: Kanosis


The next great revolution in computing is going to be the online operating system. Your computer will just have an internet connection, ram, some routing protocols and thats about it. Google is trying to be first out the door with it.

One of the major problems with it is licensing. Google can't very well license you to use an online copy of MS Office without some type of partnership there. An MS obviously will fight them for it.

I'm not suprised to see that the first company to get out the door with this product has a company HQ's overseas, where they are much harder for US based companies to sue them for copyright infringements.



-----Original message-----
From: "Nicole xxxxxxxxxxx" Nicole.xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 13:59:43 -0500
To: "Patrick" patrick@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: FW: Kanosis

> www.kanosis.com <http://www.kanosis.com/>
>
>
>
> Have you heard of this?
>

So this is what I have so far from my techie friends that are discussing it. Patrick works on the securities side of the internet for his company and is very familiar with java platforms. That's why my friend sent him the question.

I noticed that when I start posting that most of you stop participating in the debate. =) That's no fun. Are you having more difficulty coming up with your arguments? Or just with new arguments? Just curious.

Numbers so far today:

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 42
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4739

[mpatient24]

Further email communication...

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 1:34 PM
To: Melanie
Subject: RE: FW: Kanosis

he thinks it is a practical product but he's not sure about the licensing issue down the road.

-----Original Message-----
From: Melanie
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 1:21 PM
To: Nicole
Subject: RE: FW: Kanosis


Uhm... having a blonde moment. =) So does that mean he thinks it's a viable
product???

Melanie

So... if it is a practical/viable product... then doesn't that put an end to the debate of MLM or Pyramid Scheme? That makes it an MLM according to all of the rules that the members of this forum have posted. Just because it is a money making opportunit doesn't make it a scheme. AdvoCare, HerbaLife, and Quixtar are among a few that strongly market the money making aspect as well as the products.

[mpatient24]

Anyhow, I just got another email. She said they are discussing it via chat or phone or something right now. She's going to let me know what else he says. I did give her my passwords to check COIL out. Hopefully they will do that.

[Ferret]

There is an EDIT button
Please learn to use it :p

You don't need a new post everytime a thought jumps into your brain and we have to see your annoying signature again :p

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 42
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4739

Almost at the 5000 mark and all the early bird pyramid players are in already
Looks like it is stalled out..... ;)

Prediction: Kanosis will NEVER get close to a million members
They will be lucky to get half that

Kanosis website still is a lot of hype and not much substance
The trailer is embarrassingly TOTAL FLUFF lol

No bios or any other updates as promised

Still using that ridiculous FAQ :D

A company like Skype?
I think not ;)
Like Gooogle? :crazy: lol

[Webwatch]

I noticed that when I start posting that most of you stop participating in the debate. =) That's no fun. Are you having more difficulty coming up with your arguments? Or just with new arguments? Just curious. Sorry don't think i've gone shy-my main argument is the pyramid Scheme aspect of Kanosis.

So... if it is a practical/viable product... then doesn't that put an end to the debate of MLM or Pyramid Scheme? That makes it an MLM according to all of the rules that the members of this forum have posted. Just because it is a money making opportunit doesn't make it a scheme. AdvoCare, HerbaLife, and Quixtar are among a few that strongly market the money making aspect as well as the products.
If Kanosis can sell its products to an end user without them having to join the pyramid then my work is done. But as long as all users have to pay $59 or $37 when Kanosis launches and join the Pyramid whether they like it or not Kanosis will always be a Pyramid Scheme. I can only base my opinion on the current situation not on Hyperthetical future scenarios.

Regarding the Internet based OS I am still figuring out how a computer could function without its own offline OS to tie all the pieces of hardware together and allow them to function correctly let alone the security issues.
Maybe one of our more Computer Savy Posters could answer the Internet based OS questions as I don't want to come over as too much of a sceptic :)

[mpatient24]

Sorry don't think i've gone shy-my main argument is the pyramid Scheme aspect of Kanosis.

If Kanosis can sell its products to an end user without them having to join the pyramid then my work is done. But as long as all users have to pay $59 or $37 when Kanosis launches and join the Pyramid whether they like it or not Kanosis will always be a Pyramid Scheme. I can only base my opinion on the current situation not on Hyperthetical future scenarios.

You are paying for the service of Kanosis to join. You do not join the business opportunity and get your own matrix unless you sell the service to at least 2 other people. I know that to sign up for Creative Memories you have to pay almost $300 to get your start up kit, are required to sell a min of $500 per quarter, and are strongly encouraged to build your team to earn more money & commissions. How is Kanosis different except that you get your product on the web? When you sell products to a customer with Creative Memories they are given the opportunity to join. If they don't want to the salesperson/member that sold them the product still gets paid commission. Why should Kanosis be any different??

[mpatient24]

With regards to the email about licensing that I posted... I sent it to Jim to see if he had a response. This was his email to me.

Melanie,
Everything we supply today and in the future we have a license to sell/re-sell...... but there are some really neat discussions in progress to fill in the blanks relative to Microsoft compatibility for their Office suite..I'm not at liberty to disclose because the negotiations are at a very sensitive point.... but you will like it when we announce soon. I am headed to Cyprus in two weeks on the 7th for a week...... It will be our first full week in our new offices there for the entire management team..... I also will keep an office in Newport Beach California inorder to be in the same time zone as most of our business.....

At 02:41 PM 3/27/2006, you wrote:

Hi Jim! Just curious if you had a response to the concern over licensing
issue with regards to Patrick's statement below.

Sincerely,

Melanie

Just for the record... I asked him if I could post his reply to me... and this was his response...

Melanie,
Assume that unless I tell you otherwise you can feel free to publish anything you ask me.... I will not intentionally ever put you in the middle of the corporate BS that some of those guys have shoveled....

As for Webwatch's comments about being able to buy the service without pushing the matrix, we have always said that "Post Launch" there will be a services only product, but not until then... seems like convenient selective amnesia.... gotta run now.

Have to say... I agree with his statement. :)

[nepatriots]

Kanosis website still is a lot of hype and not much substance

I hate to bring my self down to your level but I have to say that the same quote can be used to explain your posts here in this otherwise well intentioned message board. Please bring something more to this discussion than just innuendoes… it gets old.

[weirdid]

There is a version of linux that runs from a single floppy disc, so i guess its possible for a java based OS to run on top of windows.


-weird

[nepatriots]

There is a version of linux that runs from a single floppy disc, so i guess its possible for a java based OS to run on top of windows.


-weird

You have to love Linux! :bow:

[Webwatch]

You are paying for the service of Kanosis to join. You do not join the business opportunity and get your own matrix unless you sell the service to at least 2 other people. I know that to sign up for Creative Memories you have to pay almost $300 to get your start up kit, are required to sell a min of $500 per quarter, and are strongly encouraged to build your team to earn more money & commissions. How is Kanosis different except that you get your product on the web? When you sell products to a customer with Creative Memories they are given the opportunity to join. If they don't want to the salesperson/member that sold them the product still gets paid commission. Why should Kanosis be any different??

I've had a busy day but I will try and put this reply into some logical form.

Kanosis Pre-launch business model is typical Pyramid Hype to get the fastest growth in the shortest possible time. Have no doubt the Kanosis founders no what they are doing and how to keep this within the grounds of legitimacy (See Kanosis Terms and Conditions). They also know that Kanosis will be promoted on Forums and other chanels by the Pyramid players with the main pull being the revenue source possible from enticing new members.

When you joined Kanosis you would have used a referral id to become a member this puts you in the Pyramid. As you are not promoting Kanosis to build your own downline your part of the pyramid will stall. At present there is no way to buy a product from Kanosis without becoming a part of the Pyramid. In a true MLM say for arguments sake selling Lipstick an end user could buy the lipstick with no incentive to refer other friends to purchase lipsticks from them. The main enticement would be to purchase the lipstick and not refer others.

With Kanosis the main enticement is to join the Matrix/Pyramid and bulid a downline to earn commisions. Hence Pre-Launch. Although its worth noting that coil is used as the main incentive in official Kanosis literature and websites the founders know that the true main incentive for many of the early players will be the potential of a large income.

After Kanosis launches it may distance itself from the whole Pyramid structure and introduce a system where new members can join either without using a referal id or by just becoming part of the community and even incorparate free tests of coil to potential members in order to entice them in.

Ironically in order for Kanosis to distance itself from becoming a Pyramid scheme it may alienate the early members who where greedy and only joined for the potential financial rewards. It will be these members that may cry scam and attempted to discredit Kanosis because they haven't received the huge sums of money they thought they would.

Everyone thinking of joining should do so after carefully looking at Coil and the Kanosis community and what it can do to improve their lifestyle and not for the financial potential. Even Kanosis might support this statement in public (not behind closed doors though).

Mpatient if I remember correctly didn't you join Kanosis after being recomended by a friend and also to see if coil could be of use to you and maybe dare I say it a bit of curiousity too.

[mpatient24]

Mpatient if I remember correctly didn't you join Kanosis after being recomended by a friend and also to see if coil could be of use to you and maybe dare I say it a bit of curiousity too. Yes, I did. And a couple of weeks after joining, I still think that COIL has good potential. I've seen a lot of good changes. The business opportunity is intriguing. I'm not against making money by selling a product you think is useful. And I don't have anything against MLM's. I agree that there are a lot of scams. I do think there is a good chance that Kanosis could be one of the legitimate ones. I remember hearing a lot of this same "hype" when AdvoCare first came out.

[Arzel]

With regards to the email about licensing that I posted... I sent it to Jim to see if he had a response. This was his email to me.


Quote:
Melanie,
Everything we supply today and in the future we have a license to sell/re-sell...... but there are some really neat discussions in progress to fill in the blanks relative to Microsoft compatibility for their Office suite..I'm not at liberty to disclose because the negotiations are at a very sensitive point.... but you will like it when we announce soon. I am headed to Cyprus in two weeks on the 7th for a week...... It will be our first full week in our new offices there for the entire management team..... I also will keep an office in Newport Beach California inorder to be in the same time zone as most of our business.....

At 02:41 PM 3/27/2006, you wrote:

Hi Jim! Just curious if you had a response to the concern over licensing
issue with regards to Patrick's statement below.

Sincerely,

Melanie



Just for the record... I asked him if I could post his reply to me... and this was his response...


Quote:
Melanie,
Assume that unless I tell you otherwise you can feel free to publish anything you ask me.... I will not intentionally ever put you in the middle of the corporate BS that some of those guys have shoveled....

As for Webwatch's comments about being able to buy the service without pushing the matrix, we have always said that "Post Launch" there will be a services only product, but not until then... seems like convenient selective amnesia.... gotta run now.



Have to say... I agree with his statement.

Thanks for the information mpatient24,

I see Jim is no longer commenting here, so it will be difficult to discuss the pryamidal nature of Kanosis, thus we are now forced to discuss by proxy. You will notice an interesting comment by Jim in your first message.

"Everything we supply today and in the future we have a license to sell/re-sell...... but there are some really neat discussions in progress to fill in the blanks relative to Microsoft compatibility for their Office suite..I'm not at liberty to disclose because the negotiations are at a very sensitive point.... "

Everytime I start to think that maybe Kanosis isn't your run of the mill scheme they make a scam like statement. This is a very typical baiting statement made by many scammers. Just enough information to get your excited and push the matrix, but not enough to fall back onto when it doesn't happen in the future.

In response to his second statement about selective amnesia, I seem to remember Jim stating he would supply information about the matrix and number of positions. I accordinly backed off on my analysis of Kanosis to show good faith, yet Jim has seeminly "forgotten" about this. I propose that he had no intention of ever providing that information, and my patience regarding the situation has come to an end.

Kanosis is a pryamid scheme, and current growth rates show it will be very difficult to reach the 1,000,000 mark. At the current rate it would appear that year end numbers will fall between 20,000 and 100,000 people. At this point new members (joining now, or yet to have started to build their downline) have about a 50/50 chance of earning enough to pay for the product on average (about 50,000 members total).

[JNRAY]

I have been following this topic for a while although I havent posted in a long time but now I really have to say something.

Webwatch,

Why are you soo much against the pyramid scheme in itself? Of course there have been tonns of MLM scams and it is understandable that you have a negative expectation in regard to Kanosis but that does not justify that you totally condemn every pyramid system as a scam. Is not every business model a pyramid system to a certain extent? Do you not get paid according to the number of customers to whom you sell a product or a service?

You call the ones who joined in Prelaunch greedy because they want to make some extra money? I do agree that there is always a danger for one to become greedy in a MLM system and the one or the other has to be on guard to keep his intentions clean but to call everyone greedy who hopes to improve his standard of living is absolutely ridiculous.

Many of whom I know that joined in Prelaunch do not have a very high standard of living and so it was a real gift from God to them to join Kanosis and get some financial blessing through it. Do you call them greedy people?

[Arzel]

Even though directed at Webwatch, I feel I must respond as well.

I have been following this topic for a while although I havent posted in a long time but now I really have to say something.

Webwatch,

Why are you soo much against the pyramid scheme in itself? Of course there have been tonns of MLM scams and it is understandable that you have a negative expectation in regard to Kanosis but that does not justify that you totally condemn every pyramid system as a scam. Is not every business model a pyramid system to a certain extent? Do you not get paid according to the number of customers to whom you sell a product or a service?

No, not all businesses are pryamids. We hear this time and time again that all or most businesses are pryamids, but the that is simply a false statement. My salary at my job is not dependent on how many people work for my company, it is dependent on how many customers we serve and the overall profitability of the company.

A pryamid scheme relies on its members to pay other members, such is not the case with a legitimate company. Currently all of the income from Kanosis comes from existing members and is independent of any outside revenue, thus is falls into the classification of a pryamid scheme. Kanosis claims that in the future they will be selling product outside of the pryamid, but until that actually happens I see no other classification


You call the ones who joined in Prelaunch greedy because they want to make some extra money? I do agree that there is always a danger for one to become greedy in a MLM system and the one or the other has to be on guard to keep his intentions clean but to call everyone greedy who hopes to improve his standard of living is absolutely ridiculous.


I am not sure about Webwatch, but in general the pre-launch is a way for insiders to gain a prime position within the matrix or pryamid, thus all but guarenteeing that they are profitable in the scheme. I dislike the pre-launch because it does not give all potential members the same likelihood of sucess. Since there is a finite number of people which can participate the probability of success decreases exponentially for each new person. Not that it really matters all that much, since the pre-launch is simply a marketing ploy to get early ponzi and pryamid players to promote the scheme.


Many of whom I know that joined in Prelaunch do not have a very high standard of living and so it was a real gift from God to them to join Kanosis and get some financial blessing through it. Do you call them greedy people?

This is perhaps the least persuasive logic I have ever heard. By your logic, these people are deserving of their position because of circumstances outside the scheme. And to call it a gift from God is sickening. I am sure God would approve of a scheme where 90% of all members are destined to lose, and that those that get in early will be taking from those that join later. The fact that you would even use religion as a legitimizing reason only furthers my belief that it is nothing but a pryamid scheme designed to make those at the top wealthy at the expense of those at the bottom.....I think you have the wrong end of the religous spectrum for these people to thank.

[JNRAY]

I did not mean to say that it was a God given gift but that they looked at it in that way. Sorry for that. All I am saying is that they did not join out of greed.


If the people in the prelaunch make most of the money(which they normally do). Are the ones that join later really underpriviledged?? If kanosis offers a product for which consumers are willing to pay, because of the product and not for the income opportunity,then why is anyone underpriviledged or treated unfairly if he, knowing that he does not earn as much income as the prelaunchers but still interested in the product and willing to pay for it regardless of the income opportunity?

[Arzel]

I did not mean to say that it was a God given gift but that they looked at it in that way. Sorry for that. All I am saying is that they did not join out of greed.


If the people in the prelaunch make most of the money(which they normally do). Are the ones that join later really underpriviledged?? If kanosis offers a product for which consumers are willing to pay, because of the product and not for the income opportunity,then why is anyone underpriviledged or treated unfairly if he, knowing that he does not earn as much income as the prelaunchers but still interested in the product and willing to pay for it regardless of the income opportunity?

Point taken, but how do you know they didn't join out of greed? It certainly appears that some did not (like mpatient24), but it also appears that a great many did. Simply do a little search on google and you will find dozens of sites already up promoting the money making aspect of Kanosis, and for the most part are pushing the pre-launch angle of "Get in now so you can make a ton of money!"

Kanosis is also marketing itself as a way to make money.

They could say.

"Use our great product, it is light years ahead of anything else!"

But they say.

"We have a great product, and GET PAID while you use it!"

If Kanosis was serious about having a great product it would have been in production before they started marketing it. As it stands it is still in pre-production, as stated by the lead programmer himself.

What it really comes down to is trust. I have seen far to many scams over the past few years to not see the similarities with Kanosis, and I just don't beleive them.

For one they are quite inconsistant regarding the fact that COIL is not a finished product, and now that it is known that it is not finished have no good answer for why they are charging for a beta product. The answer is quite easy, if they don't, they can't start their pryamid and get people to promote it.

Jim refused to provide information regarding the number of people in various levels. If it was not a pryamid scheme in which most people would end up losing then there would be no reason not to provide that information. But they clearly do not want people to know that their odds of making any money are almost zero, even more so now that they have close to 5,000 users.

[ycchen]

I did not mean to say that it was a God given gift but that they looked at it in that way. Sorry for that. All I am saying is that they did not join out of greed.

If the people in the prelaunch make most of the money(which they normally do). Are the ones that join later really underpriviledged?? If kanosis offers a product for which consumers are willing to pay, because of the product and not for the income opportunity,then why is anyone underpriviledged or treated unfairly if he, knowing that he does not earn as much income as the prelaunchers but still interested in the product and willing to pay for it regardless of the income opportunity?
Okay. Here is JNRAY's logic, correct me if I am wrong.

Early birds (the "lucky" 5000) join in the prelaunch get (1) passive income + (2) potentially good software. Latecomers (90% at any time, including the prelaunch period) get (1) potentially good software. Period. Wait, they have to pay monthly subscription fees to "use the software" and continue to pay those 10% of "lucky one" on top of them. Everyone get the same service, why the early birds (only 6-10%, ALWAYS) get pay? Some (including all the executives) get pay MORE than the rest according to the pyramid order. Tell me why this is a legit and fair "business"? Nope, it is not. It is an unfair, unjust and potentially illegal business (for some states in the U.S.. Probably that the reason why all big pyramid scheme locate outside U.S. :shake: )

What does it means for 90-94% of latecomers? Coil is overpriced! At least 77% over price! Or Kanosis will like to argue that Kanosis is 77% discount for the first 6-10% of people. Whatever.

Pyramid ALWAYS means overprice product (if there is a "potentially" good product to start with). Without overprice, how can there be enough money to distribute to the top of the pyramid? Remember, everyone in the pyramid get the same service, and arguement that "the uplines will serve their downlines as a justification for getting pay" is a completely BS. The only service is: get more "dynamic downline so we can make money "together"! :shake: Moreover, I bet some of the uplines might not even own a computer, and they don't need to because kanosis is a pyramid investment opportunity.

Anyone who knows this pyramid logic will not join, and know that kanosis is saturated (5000 is a lot already).

Only those who are still not aware of the pyramid logic will join. Unfortunately pyramid scheme usually do not offer refund, so if someone finally figure out that they were the bottom 90% and never get 30 downlines to pay for their subscription fee, there is no exit. They will not get refund! Kanosis ALSO don't offer refund, why I am not surprised? :shake:

The time latecomers stop paying the (overpriced) subscription fee, they are locked out with no refund no software. Am I right? Who cares? Most of the Kanosisan early birds (with some exception on this forum) only ask one question: Who's next?

[Webwatch]

I have been following this topic for a while although I havent posted in a long time but now I really have to say something.

Webwatch,

Why are you soo much against the pyramid scheme in itself? Of course there have been tonns of MLM scams and it is understandable that you have a negative expectation in regard to Kanosis but that does not justify that you totally condemn every pyramid system as a scam. Is not every business model a pyramid system to a certain extent? Do you not get paid according to the number of customers to whom you sell a product or a service?

You call the ones who joined in Prelaunch greedy because they want to make some extra money? I do agree that there is always a danger for one to become greedy in a MLM system and the one or the other has to be on guard to keep his intentions clean but to call everyone greedy who hopes to improve his standard of living is absolutely ridiculous.

Many of whom I know that joined in Prelaunch do not have a very high standard of living and so it was a real gift from God to them to join Kanosis and get some financial blessing through it. Do you call them greedy people?Hello JNRAY and welcome back.
As most of the points raised may have been answered already please don't treat this as a bombardment of the same answers just my opinion on things.

To start with I am so much against Pyramid Schemes as they always benefit the early members and 90%+ may never recoup the money they have invested. Even when a Pyrmaid Scheme goes to pre-launch the top positions have normally been filled and the whole pre-launch concept can be nothing more than a clever ruse to acheive a fast initial growth.

As Kanosis only uses a small initial investment (This is the bait part) it may seem I am being too negative at times, but the hype and spin surrounding this initial investment follows the same approach of many dubious Ponzis i.e The blatant $500 single step scheme which is discussed on other threads.

A pyramid scheme will always try and present itself as an MLM but during the pre-launch phase it is clear that unlike an MLM no user can join without the main incentive to recruit others being in place.

I do agree with your point that most business's and even governments can be related to a Pyramid model but the main difference is that the ground floor workers/sales people do not have to recruit others with the incentive of continual recruitment in order to earn their paycheck.

The important thing to look for is an end user who can buy a product or service and then walk away without any incentive to recruit others. It is true that happy customers may return and purchase more products from a company but there is no financial incentive to do this apart from the servce received or the quality or price of the goods. Kanosis at the moment does not have an end user as each customer becomes a part of the scheme whether they like it or not.

What gives many Pyramid Schemes away is their Terms & Conditions or FAQ section which will usually describe a situation that the company is not in.

I dont think I have called everyone who wants to improve their standard of living with minimal effort greedy if that was the case I to would be greedy. I only highlighted how Pyramid schemes use the greed and lazyness side of Human nature as a marketing stratergy and the potential of huge financial returns which for many will not materialise.

To say Kanosis is a gift from a higher being or a blessing is strange as $59 to them would be a large investment especially if they didn't own or have access to a computer.
I dont want to go down the religious route as most pyramid schemes target these groups as a matter of course.

I don't want to come across as a "Negative Expert" as Kanosis likes to call us only to offer an opinion (based on experience) allowing potential Kanosians the chance to make a more informed decision.

To Summarise:
If you feel that Coil and the Kanosis community are a neccesity to improve your excistence or are just curious I can't see a major problem.

But if you are joinig to acheive Financial independance this may never happen as with all Pyrmaid Schemes the early positions are already in place and unless you have a circle of a few thousand friends who are willing to get involved and do likewise this could prove very difficult.

[antonroy]

Hello,

Just an update.

As far as I can see, it is now possible to join Kanosis without purchasing COIL. So it is possible to be a community member - for the $15 a year.

Anton

[Webwatch]

Thanks antonroy
Thats good news. Still need a user name to be referred though but its certainley a move in the right direction.

Not that Kanosis is paying attention to me, but it might be an idea to reduce the quaterly and yearly otions from say $66 for a quarter to $60 and yearly from $254 to $220 this allows for a discount for paying more up front.

This shows at least they are serious about their longevity and acting on feedback and critisisums. But i'm not arrogant enough to think they have done this on my say so.

[Ferret]

Why would anyone sign up for Coil for 3 months or a year in advance?
There is no discount or any advantage I can see except for Kanosis
They get your money interest free for a year

Can anyone give ONE good reason to pay in advance?

What happens if you pay for a year and don't like how Coil works?
What happens if they go out of business?
Do you get a refund?

Yes, since yesterday? there is now the option for just a $15 membership

Kanosis Community Member Subscription
With Coil Subscription
Kanosis Community Member Fee (Yearly) $15
Select billing method for your Coil subscription:
Monthly $22
Quarterly $66
Yearly $264

Kanosis Community Member Subscription
Without Coil Subscription
Kanosis Community Member Fee (Yearly) $15
Please note: Currently you can only earn commissions with a Coil Subscription.

Renewal Charges:
Please charge my credit card on a recurring monthly, quarterly, and/or yearly basis as selected above.

[Arzel]

Thanks antonroy
Thats good news. Still need a user name to be referred though but its certainley a move in the right direction.

Not that Kanosis is paying attention to me, but it might be an idea to reduce the quaterly and yearly otions from say $66 for a quarter to $60 and yearly from $254 to $220 this allows for a discount for paying more up front.

This shows at least they are serious about their longevity and acting on feedback and critisisums. But i'm not arrogant enough to think they have done this on my say so.

I agree a step in the right direction.

As for allowing a discount on extended service the reason they don't want to do that is because they have already stipulated that you need to purchase $22 a month worth of services to recieve commissions. Hence they are thinking along the lines of the commissions, and not along the lines of how one might market this in normal business transactions.

It probably didn't even occur to them to allow a discount by purchasing up front for extended periods, because that is not how they are thinking about this business. You can really see where their line of thought is going by looking at how they handle certain actions. To allow for a discounted price for extended time frames would force them to completely remodel their initial aspect of a minimum per month purchase, when in reality if they were really about the service of COIL itself then allowing a discounted price for extended purchases would be their best bet as it would ensure that members use the service for long periods of time.

Just more smoke and mirrors.

[Ferret]

Kanosis is charging a Credit Card processing fee (4.25%):

What other business does that?

[Arzel]

Kanosis is charging a Credit Card processing fee (4.25%):

What other business does that?

YMMSS did that as well.

[Ferret]

YMMSS did that as well.
Maybe Google, Skype and My Space should start charging that Credit Card processing fee too ;) lol

Think of all the extra revenue it would bring in :D

I also noticed that the Pre-Checked option is for 3 months or Quarterly $66 ;)
Those kanosians are sneaky........ lol

Do they need money that bad?

Still waiting for a GOOD reason to pay Kanosis more than one month at a time :confused:

There is a recurring option to check

[Ferret]

Has anyone watched the Kanosis trailer?

http://www.kanosis.com/trailer/index.cfm

Please do and post what you think about it

[antonroy]

Honestly I agree, the incentive for paying in advance should only be the convenience?!? But let's see if it won't come. Otherwise I can't see why it shouldn't just be on a monthly basis.

I believe COIL will also be available in the future just as the software, if you don't want to participate in the opportunity part of it.

The Kanosis movie is okay - but don't expect, this will be the marketing provided when Kanosis launches. As far as I know there will be a 10 min video presentation and a marketing system in place.

I also have the impression that later on it will be possible to just signup under corporate Kanosis (still get placed in the matrix).

antonroy

[logicRules]

Thanks for all your efforts to post here Melanie!
I have been too busy to do the same, but I can give a ditto to your comments.
And just so everyone here knows, I am also now a member of Kanosis, Kanosians we are called. I will try to contribute more later and also answer questions when I can, but have to go to work now - we are short staffed right now, and I have even less free time for the moment.
Anyone out there a Nuclear Pharmacist? We need 2!

[Webwatch]

Sorry I can't help with the Nuclear Pharmacist request, my knowledge of using radioactive materials in medical situations is weak to say the least.

But you comment's and input here are always welcome.

[Arzel]

Thanks for all your efforts to post here Melanie!
I have been too busy to do the same, but I can give a ditto to your comments.
And just so everyone here knows, I am also now a member of Kanosis, Kanosians we are called. I will try to contribute more later and also answer questions when I can, but have to go to work now - we are short staffed right now, and I have even less free time for the moment.
Anyone out there a Nuclear Pharmacist? We need 2!

This is all a little confusing.

"we are short staffed" Are you referring to your job or Kanosis?

What does Nuclear Pharmacy have to do with Kanosis?

[logicRules]

Its not that hard to figure out Arzel - I said,"...have to go to work now - we are short staffed right now...".
So how does that confuse you to think I am referring to Kanosis being short staffed?
I noticed that you only quoted "we are short staffed" from my comments which you included in full in your post - why?? You created the confusion - anyone else confused?
And obviously to anyone, Nuclear Pharmacy doesn't have anything to do with Kanosis!?!
So what is the point of your rhetorical question?
My post was on subject and in regard to Kanosis, and I don't think that just mentioning that we are looking for Nuclear Pharmacists poses a problem.
What does anyone else think??
Feeling a bit attacked here - why?

[Webwatch]

Logic,
I can't speak for Arzel but we need to stay on topic. I don't want this situation to make you late for work, you can catch up later if you wish.

We dont do personnal attacks here, only comments on posts and differing opinions and the occasional heated exchange.
Back to Kanosis please (Yes I went off topic a bit to).

Question:
Now the $15 option has been introduced is Kanosis still a Pyramid Scheme.
Or do we need that elusive end user purchase without commitment to secure its consideration as a legal MLM.

[Arzel]

Its not that hard to figure out Arzel - I said,"...have to go to work now - we are short staffed right now...".
So how does that confuse you to think I am referring to Kanosis being short staffed?
I noticed that you only quoted "we are short staffed" from my comments which you included in full in your post - why?? You created the confusion - anyone else confused?
And obviously to anyone, Nuclear Pharmacy doesn't have anything to do with Kanosis!?!
So what is the point of your rhetorical question?
My post was on subject and in regard to Kanosis, and I don't think that just mentioning that we are looking for Nuclear Pharmacists poses a problem.
What does anyone else think??
Feeling a bit attacked here - why?

Not to continue off-topic, just clarification. The reason for my confusion was that you referred to "Kanosians, we are called", and they went into stating "we need Nuclear Pharmacists". It almost seemed as if you were referring to the "we-Kanosians" and by referencing your job, it seemed like you were considering it your job.

It was not an attack, but when you include the same reference "we" in the same paragraph it appeared that they were the same "we"

[nepatriots]

Its not that hard to figure out Arzel - I said,"...have to go to work now - we are short staffed right now...".
So how does that confuse you to think I am referring to Kanosis being short staffed?
I noticed that you only quoted "we are short staffed" from my comments which you included in full in your post - why?? You created the confusion - anyone else confused?
And obviously to anyone, Nuclear Pharmacy doesn't have anything to do with Kanosis!?!
So what is the point of your rhetorical question?
My post was on subject and in regard to Kanosis, and I don't think that just mentioning that we are looking for Nuclear Pharmacists poses a problem.
What does anyone else think??
Feeling a bit attacked here - why?
I know I am continuing off topic here a bit, and I won’t comment further on it, but I have to say that logicRules post was not in anyway confusing. I think it just highlights the obvious… that some here twist the words of those posting for their own agenda, irrespective of the true meaning.

[Webwatch]

I know I am continuing off topic here a bit, and I won’t comment further on it, but I have to say that logicRules post was not in anyway confusing. I think it just highlights the obvious… that some here twist the words of those posting for their own agenda, irrespective of the true meaning.

This can happen in most debate's/discussions when opposing arguments present themselves. If you have any accusations appertaining to anyone in particular please use the PM system to try and resolve things, even if I am one of the ones you are referring to.
I too will not comment on this again if I can help it.
Back to topic then.

Question:
Now the $15 option has been introduced is Kanosis still a Pyramid Scheme.
Or do we need that elusive end user purchase without commitment to secure its consideration as a legal MLM.

[Ferret]

I know I am continuing off topic here a bit, and I won’t comment further on it, but I have to say that logicRules post was not in anyway confusing. I think it just highlights the obvious… that some here twist the words of those posting for their own agenda, irrespective of the true meaning.
Not true, Arzel didn't have an agenda and didn't try to turn it into anything bad about Kanosis, he was just trying to figure it out......
I understand perfectly why he was confused

It was confusing......I understood logicRules but wondered why he had to throw that irrelevant info into a kanosis discussion

Maybe trying to impress us???? Anyone out there a Nuclear Pharmacist? We need 2! :applause: :p

No one cares that you are rushing off to work or that you just got back from happy hour and are drunk, etc
Chatty, chatty, just talk about kanosis.....

We know so much personal info about Melanie too (mpatient24) and it is not prudent or relevant to give all that info out:nono:
I could quote it here but I won't
This is the internet.... Its the new wild west ;)

That brings up the Kanosis community where a lot of attractive women have their pictures and info in full view, doesn't make a lot of sense to me

Have you been reading the news about "MySpace" and predators?

[Arzel]

That brings up the Kanosis community where a lot of attractive women have their pictures and info in full view, doesn't make a lot of sense to me

Have you been reading the news about "MySpace" and predators?

I already said I wasn't attacking so I won't further address that part.

But in response to Ferret I was thinking the same thing, but it is also a wise marketing ploy, and is sure to attract some men into the mix on the off chance that they will be able to meet some of these women, the probability of so many attractive women being displayed by chance is all but impossible.

[Ferret]

Has anyone watched the Kanosis trailer?

http://www.kanosis.com/trailer/index.cfm
Please do and post what you think about it
You have to listen to this for the muzac and the dramatic voice over


Community.....

Built on foundations treasured by great civilizations

A land of common good.......

A land of plenty

and plenty for all

A world so perfect many believe it to be.....????

We have made it our business to recreate this world

Kaaanosissssss..... :D :D

Join us and make this world part of your life today...... :applause: :applause: lol :D :p

This is a trailer that a CULT like Est or Scientology would put out or some kind of New Age crap

What the hell are they selling here?

After listening to this I am convinced Kanosis has major problems

Who's idea was this? and who is in charge of developing the website? :rolleyes:

My advice is to fire both of them

[ycchen]

The trailer is obviously not targeting someone who is in for the not-a-beta software. It is a pretty typical pyramid/MLM advertisement pitch that sells hope, dream and future. :shake: May be someone can point us to the similar trailers created by google, Skype and My Space :rolleyes: I wonder why these trully successful companies do not need to sell "dream, hope and future"?

Fire them? Come on, Ferret, I bet the order came directly from the (unknown but will reveal soon) founding president and CEO of kanosis.

By the way, who exactly are running the "soon-to-be-google" company? I don't understand why it is so difficult for them to figure that out?! May be too many people want to be the founding president and CEO of this soon-to-be __________(fill in the blank) company? http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/26/lang/english/theopportunity

The Kanosis marketing model is a hybrid of recent Internet success stories such as Google, Skype and My Space and the 55-year-old network marketing industry.

[nepatriots]

The trailer is obviously not targeting someone who is in for the not-a-beta software. It is a pretty typical pyramid/MLM advertisement pitch that sells hope, dream and future. :shake: May be someone can point us to the similar trailers created by google, Skype and My Space :rolleyes: I wonder why these trully successful companies do not need to sell "dream, hope and future"?

Fire them? Come on, Ferret, I bet the order came directly from the (unknown but will reveal soon) founding president and CEO of kanosis.

By the way, who exactly are running the "soon-to-be-google" company? I don't understand why it is so difficult for them to figure that out?! May be too many people want to be the founding president and CEO of this soon-to-be __________(fill in the blank) company?
Now you guys are comedians!!??? Your slapstick isn't helping your cause. :nono:

[ycchen]

nepatriots, thanks for your kind reminder. Relax, I believe the readers will make their own judgement on who to trust when it comes to spending their money as long as they are given a second, third and fouth opinions. The best way to promote kanosis is to set up their own uncensored forum soon, right? ;)

BTW, we really appreciate your effort in keeping us update on the daily signup. Thanks. :)

Lastly, what do you really think about the trailer? Do you really thinks it reflects a company that is serious about its software product? I am dissappointed because it is so generic that it applies to EVERY possible business in our planet earth.

[logicRules]

The problem that I see with you Ferret is that you have lost credibility to a certain extent.

No matter what you say, or what you present, I will tend to assume that you have motive to show Kanosis in a negative light. No matter how objective you may have started out, you don't appear to be objective anymore.

The best that can be said about you now is that you are a devils advocate - and maybe that is how you want it - so okay - to each his own - lord knows I have been the devils advocate on occasion.

So at this point, I don't think anyone here would see you as objective. Whether or not what you say is true - it is tainted by your bias presentation and your seeming disdain for Kanosis and anyone involved with it.

And you may say, "hey, I just call it as I see it, and you can't handle the truth" because of greed or whatever else you think has infected our reasoning, and that's all fine, I'm just saying don't expect anyone (or at least myself) to see you as objective about it - and this will certainly effect your credibility.

Just my opinion.

[logicRules]

And BTW, I DON'T like the trailer - I'm disapointed.

[nepatriots]

nepatriots, thanks for your kind reminder. Relax, I believe the readers will make their own judgement on who to trust when it comes to spending their money as long as they are given a second, third and fouth opinions. The best way to promote kanosis is to set up their own uncensored forum soon, right? ;)

BTW, we really appreciate your effort in keeping us update on the daily signup. Thanks. :)

Lastly, what do you really think about the trailer? Do you really thinks it reflects a company that is serious about its software product? I am dissappointed because it is so generic that it applies to EVERY possible business in our planet earth.
I agree with you… readers will make their own judgment and that is the way it should be. I have no problem with that. I am sure there are sites out there with their own uncensored forums and I would have the same problem with them as I do here if they were blatantly one sided and not open minded.

I thought that the trailer was fine… I didn’t see any problems with it. It didn’t promise the world or that you would make more money than you will ever imagine. I had to laugh at Ferret’s comment that “After listening to this I am convinced Kanosis has major problems”. If Kanosis is going to have any problems it’s not going to be because the trailer sucked.

It may be generic but they do say it’s a trailer… trailers by definition just scratch the surface when it comes to saying a whole lot. Just look at the trailer for any movie being released….

[ycchen]

Your definition of trailer is obviously different from mine (and perhaps Ferret) who believes a trailer should shows the "best part" of program. (If a Hollywood's movie sells this kind of trailer, I am sure the person who make it will be fired for sure. ;)

Frankly speaking, I am a bit disturbed by the "genesis"-like language in the trailer. I don't think Christian will buy that if they are targeting the Chritian community.
A land of common good.......

A land of plenty

and plenty for all Well, I really don't care much about the trailer as it is what I would expect from a pyramid/MLM business.

What I (and most MWers) concern the most is the very strong pyramid-MLM style marketing strategy that is used to promoting a "potentially useful" software, and our forum is designated to provide a second/third opinion/reminder to people who is interested in joining.

I am sure Kaonsis will open its uncensored forum soon. Let's hope that kanosis forum is open, transparent and the admin/moderators are willing to answer all kind of challenging questions if they are really confident about their products and their pyramid-matrix-MLM marketing strategy.

[Arzel]

It is obviously a trailer for the get rich aspect of Kanosis. The comments "A land of plenty, plenty for all" is clearly an inference to the aspect of money making, and relative to the common theme of money making schemes that all will make money.

The fact that there is no reference to COIL or any actual footage of COIL or any other products is interesting. You would think a trailer to sell Kanosis would include something about what Kanosis is, and not just a bunch of catch phrases and feel good statements.

[logicRules]

Arzel, you wrote:

But in response to Ferret I was thinking the same thing, but it is also a wise marketing ploy, and is sure to attract some men into the mix on the off chance that they will be able to meet some of these women, the probability of so many attractive women being displayed by chance is all but impossible.

I can say that I have literally spent hours browsing the pictures of Kanosis members, and I really don't know where you get this. The occurrence of good looking women appearing alone (with out husbands or family) is not out of the ordinary, and is far from being the predominant finding.

Honestly, it is this kind of misrepresentation that steels your credibility.

I challenge anyone else to spend any legitimate time browsing Kanosis, and back up Arzels statement.

[Ferret]

I can say that I have literally spent hours browsing the pictures of Kanosis members, and I really don't know where you get this. The occurrence of good looking women appearing alone (with out husbands or family) is not out of the ordinary, and is far from being the predominant finding.

Honestly, it is this kind of misrepresentation that steels your credibility.

I challenge anyone else to spend any legitimate time browsing Kanosis, and back up Arzels statement.
You are a little thick logicRules ;)
not very logical at all.........and more than a little confusing

We are just looking at the home page ( What Kanosis shows the world )
None of us are "kanosians" so we don't get to browse the members

We are talking from the perspective of a NEW potential member looking to join Kanosis

The Kanosis website has also changed the member photos they were displaying several times
Arzel may be talking about the earlier versions

Did you find those 2 Nuclear Pharmacist yet? lol

[Arzel]

Arzel, you wrote:



I can say that I have literally spent hours browsing the pictures of Kanosis members, and I really don't know where you get this. The occurrence of good looking women appearing alone (with out husbands or family) is not out of the ordinary, and is far from being the predominant finding.

Honestly, it is this kind of misrepresentation that steels your credibility.

I challenge anyone else to spend any legitimate time browsing Kanosis, and back up Arzels statement.

Since I am not a member I cannot browse all of the members, but when you go to their front page you get to view a few of the members.

Currently there are 18 members scrolling across. 6 women, 6 men, 2 families, 1 child, and two couples. I would consider 5 of the women quite attractive, and one average to above average. 2 of the men probably attractive, and 3 average to above average and 1 average. Families are more difficult to gage, and children are almost always cute. Both couples are very attractive as well.

Are these people a good representation of the average Coil user? Doubtful, which is why I said it was a wise marketing ploy, pretty much all are young and attractive to a great degree.

When you look at the myspace pages available to visitors you get a much better representative of the population of Kanosis. About a 2 to 1 ratio of men to women, with a far greater percentage of average (in appearance people), and a much greater age range.

You are quick to defend, I was just saying that this is just a sociological observation which I found interesting, and a common marketing tool.

[ycchen]

Kanosis is a land of plenty that include pretty girls, boys, couple and family. ;)

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=281

[logicRules]

Your just showing your own ignorance Ferret, and your apparent unwillingness to thoroughly navigate the website - and yes, as a non-member.

If you (or any non-member) goes to Kanosis.com, and click on "my web space" - the last link in the bottom left area of the screen - you will see a sampling of 12 photos of Kanosis members. And if you continue to click on that same link, the site will continue to sample other members, and this is the exact same thing that members see - the only difference is that members can click into the member links, and non-members cannot. And these are the photos that I reference when I wrote about spending hours navigating members pictures, and challenging Arzel's statement.

And as for other comments you make that are not related to Kanosis, I will not respond to those, and you would do well to stick to the subject.

[logicRules]

Azrel, Read my post to Ferret so you too can see how to navigate to the pictures of Kanosis members.

As for the scrolling pictures, I don't see the significance. Any interested person who spends any real time navigating the site will figure out what I have explained and find these member photos.

[nepatriots]

Kanosis is a land of plenty that include pretty girls, boys, couple and family. ;)
Things are getting pretty desperate in the MatrixWatch world if you are now ripping the pictures of members. :crazy:

[ycchen]

Things are getting pretty desperate in the MatrixWatch world if you are now ripping the pictures of members. :crazy: Desperate? Nope. Just bored to see kanosis turning more and more toward a pyramid scheme each day. :)

May I know the signup rate today? Thanks.

[Arzel]

Azrel, Read my post to Ferret so you too can see how to navigate to the pictures of Kanosis members.

As for the scrolling pictures, I don't see the significance. Any interested person who spends any real time navigating the site will figure out what I have explained and find these member photos.

What is your issue?

I made a simple observation regarding this marketing aspect. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that the members on the front page did not just happen by chance. It is a common marketing tool, and it is really interesting if you think about it.

What is Kanosis? It is a community of people, or so they claim, and the first view of that community is attractive people, it has been imprinted in your mind. It doesn't even matter if people go to the next pages, they already have one first impression. It is a good marketing tool.....I don't really see the link to how it is going to change the world through some software. The whole site is built about drawing people in. Attractive people, the ability to make money, community of good like-minded people that are going to change the world, it is all there. What really isn't there is much about the software and why you should use it over something else.

Kanosis is more about building a community of people then it is about some software, and it just so happens that the community says it can make you money through a pryamid.

If you don't like my analysis fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it is correct.

Why don't you go back to providing arguements as to why its not a pryamid?

[Ferret]

Your just showing your own ignorance Ferret, and your apparent unwillingness to thoroughly navigate the website - and yes, as a non-member.

If you (or any non-member) goes to Kanosis.com, and click on "my web space" - the last link in the bottom left area of the screen - you will see a sampling of 12 photos of Kanosis members. And if you continue to click on that same link, the site will continue to sample other members, and this is the exact same thing that members see - the only difference is that members can click into the member links, and non-members cannot. And these are the photos that I reference when I wrote about spending hours navigating members pictures, and challenging Arzel's statement.
.
That must be new ........didn't know that :) but i am not that interested in looking at pics of Kanosis members anyway
Its just fluff and that seems to be what Kanosis does best
That was Arzels point you were challenging , not mine

My point was I wouldn't want my pic there as this is the internet......remember?

Do you have to show a pic if you are a member?

I navigate the website everyday looking for the meat of the matter
Wondering when they are going to update anything

What I am interested in is the FAQ
The bios of the founders and main kanosis people that JimS said would be there weeks ago
what happened?
Company info
Will they ever add a phone # ?
Some detailed tech info about Coil
etc
I can't believe they are still using that ridiculous FAQ

The Kanosis website is a bad joke....


I can say that I have literally spent hours browsing the pictures of Kanosis members
Why would you spend HOURS doing that?

[nepatriots]

Desperate? Nope. Just bored to see kanosis turning more and more toward a pyramid scheme each day. :)
Classic vague Matrixwatch comment... sound familiar?
May I know the signup rate today? Thanks.
Not from me... In my opinion I don't see why that is relevant to the discussion.

[ycchen]

Ahhh.., I thought "nepatriots" were "mpatient24"! Sorry. :p

[Ferret]

Not from me... In my opinion I don't see why that is relevant to the discussion.
It is very relevant to a Matrix Scheme where the "early birds" get the $$$$

The fact that you would say that is very telling

Remember this?
http://www.join-kanosis.com/graph.jpg

Not much point in signing up now if you are only looking at Kanosis for the income as the kanosis matrix is at the 5000 mark

The trouble is that ALL "kanosians" DO NOT have an equal chance
It is the Math of a Matrix Scheme that determines that, you run out of people

[nepatriots]

The fact that you would say that is very telling

Why is that? Please do tell!!! I just can't wait to hear more wisdom come from Ferret's mouth. :crazy:

[Arzel]

Why is that? Please do tell!!! I just can't wait to here more wisdom come from Ferret's mouth. :crazy:

So we can determine what the probability of making any money is. Right now on pace for about 50,000 this year, so new users have a less than 50% chance of making money in the next year. And even that is a little misleading because almost no new users at this date will be able to make any substantial money.

[Ferret]

Ahhh.., I thought "nepatriots" were "mpatient24"! Sorry. :pAn easy mistake to make ;)

Why is that? Please do tell!!! I just can't wait to here[sic] more wisdom come from Ferret's mouth
The ONLY reason Kanosis is being debated here is because they chose
a 14 level Matrix Scheme to market their 'product"

If Kanosis was just selling subscriptions for their beta software Coil for $22 a month they wouldn't even have 50 members now and no one here would care what they said or did

Everyone would say I will wait until you get your act together in May? before paying you money or like Skype it would be FREE during this period

You don't like me saying Kanosis is a lot of hype
When a company says they will have 10 million members soon that is HYPE
The Conference calls mainly emphasise the money making aspects of Kanosis as they start with Alistar saying how everyone is barely making it and has lots of credit card debt, etc and how Kanosis is going to change all that....blah , blah, bla
More HYPE
The lame trailer, maximum HYPE
The website, even more HYPE

When you start with a dishonest foundation, everything is suspect

[mpatient24]

Don't have time to read and respond to all, but I will post today's numbers, and reply back later.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 5
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 4843

[antonroy]

Hello everyone,

I can see the hype and I can understand why people want more background information and a better explanation/proof of the COIL software in the marketing material provided.

But I honestly can't understand why people can't see the benefit of 'software as a service' and a secure environment to communicate with others, and the functionality by all the drag-and-drop options a software program as COIL can offer?

I would love to see two sides of marketing - a marketing system for COIL and a marketing plan for the opportunity/Kanosis. I don't see any problems with a service paying their marketing money out through a MLM compensation plan? And if the service (COIL) is as good as 'they say', and there is a need for this service, I can't see the problem with people just paying for the service, and not being compensated? Just because it is a MLM compensation plan, it doesn't mean everybody has to earn, specially if you think the software is worth a lot more than $22 a month, and you would like to use the software, no matter if you get compensated or not. Like - just because Skype (I'm NOT comparing Kanosis to Skype), has an affiliate program doesn't mean every user of Skype, has to earn money as well.

So the reason for me saying it is NOT a pyramid, but a MLM compensation plan only, doesn't come from the marketing provided now, but... The service being worth more, (I know it isn't launched yet!), than the price. And I would like to use the software and pay the $22 a month, no matter the compensation. I don't see that in a lot of well known MLM companies? Don't get me wrong... I would like to earn money as well, but I have purchased many things online, that I haven't been compensated for, and recommended a lot of things to others, I haven't been compensated for. So if I promoted COIL and people would buy - wouldn't that be okay?

And yes again - I understand the issue about hyping things up. But I still believe there is a great difference between hype and being exited. If I had been working on a product/service for that long, I would probably be exited as well, or hyping things up.

The criticism about their website, I can understand. But I can also understand that they aren't updating it before launch date, where Kanosians will get the opportunity to promote. Whether they choose to promote COIL or the opportunity.

Anton

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosis.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108
Should Kanosis.org be the Official Community and Help Forum? 127 registered users

Yes 76% [ 10 ]
No 15% [ 2 ]
Undecided 7% [ 1 ]

Total Votes : 13


has anyone happened to send a e-mail to them people i already tried but since im the owner of kanosis.org they are like eh greedy guy (maybe) members of kanosis.com have to send them the e-mail not just me.

I voted, Yes!!!

When I first founded this forum, I thought this was the official one. LOL…I was testing some url’s comparing kanosis and then this one popped up.

Patrick, Why would they think you are greedy? That make no sense.

Isn't it the whole concept to get more (as many) people familiar with Kanosis and Coil?

That you will profit from the signups you get, is all played by the game. There rules, that’s what MLM is all about.

Don’t you think that the founders and staff workers shall have much higher positions then we have? Maybe within the first 4 levels, so how is greedy?

Beside I don’t think they think that you think that they think you are greedy (LOL), you run and designed it free of chare for them and even you don't get paid for the job. So if the benefit comes along in collecting a referral, I see it as a paycheck.
How many people are going to help there downline, really? Not to speak over non downline members?

Not much I assume.

One other thing, don’t foul yourselves, we are all in also because the monies.

How(Who) doesn’t want to earn 36K max.?

Why paying a full amount of the product rent, when the product itself isn't fully operational?

If you only are interested in the product you don’t purchase it now, but waited.

My vision is to help each other and potential costumers in achieving there goals, even none related downliners. Why? Because we are all Kanosians and as you can see the big picture, the more stable the company gets, the more benefits we all get.

dutchie

Judd/Raysir
And keep the rotations going also that is a great deal if you just get one it would feel great to know it is benefitting the whole community.

We will be making a good living doing this if we work at it so keep it up.

Some typical Revealing statements from the "early birds"

As you can see, they understand all too well why people have signed up in the Pre Launch period

However, it is also obvious that they DON'T understand that they have no chance of getting anywhere near $36,000......no one will, not even the top guys
probably flunked math as well as English ;)

PS: None of you guys can even put a decent English sentence together or spell so how would that look as the "official kanosis forum"? :crazy:

[nepatriots]

......no one will, not even the top guys
probably flunked math as well as English ;)

Time to look in the mirror Ferret... what kind of sentence is that? :confused:

[logicRules]

Arzel wrote:
What is your issue?That's funny, I thought YOU and Ferret were the ones making issues. You are the ones making issues out of whatever you can ostensibly find fault with - I am only challenging you when I think that you should be challenged - a voice from another perspective.

You (Arzel) wrote:But in response to Ferret I was thinking the same thing, but it is also a wise marketing ploy, and is sure to attract some men into the mix on the off chance that they will be able to meet some of these women, the probability of so many attractive women being displayed by chance is all but impossible.The part highlighted is a conclusion by you that Kanosis is intentionally controlling which member images visitors have access to, and the implication is that it is misleading and designed to specifically attract men to join. NOT a simple observation, as you try to pass it off as in the following quote:
I made a simple observation regarding this marketing aspect. I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, just that the members on the front page did not just happen by chance. It is a common marketing tool, and it is really interesting if you think about it.No, you "didn't say there was anything wrong with it", but the implication that Kanosis is using misrepresentation to capture the interest of a certain group of people was clear. And when in response, I posted the truth that anyone could view as many members as they want, you respond with, "what is your issue"? My "issue" is get it straight and leave your bias out of it. If your going to make such statements, then stand up and support it when someone calls you on it - don't change your tune. Remember, we can all review what was previously said.

As I said to Ferret a few posts back - and which he never responded to (not surprised):
The problem that I see with you Ferret is that you have lost credibility to a certain extent.

No matter what you say, or what you present, I will tend to assume that you have motive to show Kanosis in a negative light. No matter how objective you may have started out, you don't appear to be objective anymore.

The best that can be said about you now is that you are a devils advocate - and maybe that is how you want it - so okay - to each his own - lord knows I have been the devils advocate on occasion.

So at this point, I don't think anyone here would see you as objective. Whether or not what you say is true - it is tainted by your bias presentation and your seeming disdain for Kanosis and anyone involved with it.

And you may say, "hey, I just call it as I see it, and you can't handle the truth" because of greed or whatever else you think has infected our reasoning, and that's all fine, I'm just saying don't expect anyone (or at least myself) to see you as objective about it - and this will certainly effect your credibility.

Just my opinion.You too Arzel, are losing credibility when you make such biased conclusions from your "observations".

And Ferret, you wrote in your typical condescending tone:
The Kanosis website is a bad joke....


Quote:
Originally Posted by logicRules
I can say that I have literally spent hours browsing the pictures of Kanosis members


Why would you spend HOURS doing that? I am a member of the Kanosis community, so why wouldn't I do that. And I have access to the members bio's and info and there is a lot of interesting stuff to read, so again, what you don't know (your ignorance) comes back to bite you.

I have no doubt that you spend hours reading and contributing to MW - why would you spend HOURS doing that?

Don't bother answering, it's rhetorical.

[Arzel]

You too Arzel, are losing credibility when you make such biased conclusions from your "observations".



The only bias is in your analysis of my interpretation. My analysis is based purely on fact, your analysis is based on perception of what I am thinking. If you wish to debate on logic, perhaps you should consider both sides of the equation.

In addition, I went back to look at my first reference to this issue. I clearly said that that the composition of people displayed was not purely by chance. If you have not already noticed, my focus on these scams has been first most from a statistical point of view.

If anything my credibility should take a jump because I was able to discern a statistical inference that you were not able to notice. You can complain all you want, but my analysis is correct, the probability of such a composition of Kanosis members is not statistically likely.

Furthermore, I have no finacial stake in whether Kanosis is profitable or is a huge finacial failure, you however have a stake in the development of Kanosis, therfore logicially a reasonable interpretation is that you are biased in that you fail to see my logic because it goes against your financial gain.

[nepatriots]

My analysis is based purely on fact,...
That was funny Arzel!

You can complain all you want, but my analysis is correct, the probability of such a composition of Kanosis members is not statistically likely.
You're telling me that you are now giving us the statistical probablility of how likely a good looking woman should show up on the pictures scrolling across the Kanosis website, taking into account how many people have signed up????? That is even funnier!!!

How do you figure out the very subjective piece of that equation that says which picture is a good looking woman???

Furthermore, I have no finacial stake in whether Kanosis is profitable or is a huge finacial failure, you however have a stake in the development of Kanosis, therfore logicially a reasonable interpretation is that you are biased in that you fail to see my logic because it goes against your financial gain.
And your job is to throw the kitchen sink, and everything else you can think of, in order to create just the slightest doubt that this company could be something good or legite. We could go back and forth on this till hell freezes over... the bottom line is you don't agree with the marketing plan. FINE!

I am not saying that Kanosis will be the next huge success but I am at least keeping my eyes open.

[Arzel]

That was funny Arzel!


You're telling me that you are now giving us the statistical probablility of how likely a good looking woman should show up on the pictures scrolling across the Kanosis website, taking into account how many people have signed up????? That is even funnier!!!

How do you figure out the very subjective piece of that equation that says which picture is a good looking woman???


And your job is to throw the kitchen sink, and everything else you can think of, in order to create just the slightest doubt that this company could be something good or legite. We could go back and forth on this till hell freezes over... the bottom line is you don't agree with the marketing plan. FINE!

I am not saying that Kanosis will be the next huge success but I am at least keeping my eyes open.

Obviously you have no statistical knowledge nor do you have any sociological knowledge.

Since those of you have no desire to discuss the pryamidal nature of Kanosis, this seemed like an interesting topic to discuss, however you and logicrules appear not to be able to discern the diference between statistical proability and chance.

[nepatriots]

Obviously you have no statistical knowledge nor do you have any sociological knowledge.

Since those of you have no desire to discuss the pryamidal nature of Kanosis, this seemed like an interesting topic to discuss, however you and logicrules appear not to be able to discern the diference between statistical proability and chance.
Well I have to say that I am glad I am not sensitive… according to you I have no statistical or sociological knowledge, and according to Ferret I look/sound like a girl. :rolleyes:

[Webwatch]

Seems we may have gone off on a tangent a bit but anything related to Kanosis can be considered a fair discussion in this thread.

Just to go back to the marketing stratergy for a moment if I may.

The reason Kanosis is discussed here in the first place is because of the ILLEGAL Pyramid marketing stratergy which it is using at the moment.

Kanosis does not pass either the 70% rule or the 10 Customer rule which have on occasion been used to clarify the differnce between a Pyramid and Legal MLM although admittedly with some varying levels of success.

The reasons I consider Kanosis an illegal Pyramid Scheme are as follows:

1. Recruitment-When a new member joins Kanosis they do so via a referal from another member.

2. There is a financial incentive to recruit new members in order to increase income and build a downline, they must also continue to contribute in order to receive income from that downline.

3. END PRODUCT to an END USER: This is the key differntiating factor between a legal MLM and illegal pyrmaid, as things stand at the moment there is no product or service that Kanosis members can distribute to others without the need for their inclusion in the Pyramid.

Using Avon, Tupperware and dare I say it Herbalife as examples these do have end products which can be bought without the need for inclusion in the Pyramid structure of the company. (Kanosis vs Herbalife Probably needs its own thread)

I must however mention again that Kanosis introducing a $15 joining option is what I consider a move in the right direction but by just choosing this option all that happens is you become a member of the Pyramid albeit an inactive one.

Pre-Launch-This nonsense is always present in Pyramid and Ponzi structures, where members are told not to advertise therefore giving the illusion that you are joining some secret club and are getting in early enough to make a fortune which we all know you wont as the top levels will have already been filled during the very conception of Kanosis.

When or if Kanosis does eventually launch does anybody really believe this will make a difference , will there be a big advertising campaign or will it just be case of the usual downline building channels, i.e google, yahoo etc being oversaturated with Kanosis referral i'd.s.

I havent mentioned Coil much in this because any software designer would want there program to stand up to scrutiny on its own merits and not be used in connection with a Pyramid selling technique in my opinion.
--------------------------------------------

Take this Boardroom Scenerio (Just for fun):
A company design team comes up with a so called revolutionary software product and discuss's how it should be marketed.
One says it should be passed onto as many review sites as possible and beta testers to get some feedback and also send out some press releases etc.

Another Person says, I know we will use a Pyramid marketing stratergy and target church groups and people on low incomes who dont even own a computer.

Now one of these would be asked to leave either via the window or escorted from the building by security, I'll leave it for you all to decide which one.
----------------------------------------------

Even members of this forum who are Kanosians have shown that they are not daft enough to believe all the marketing hype that a fortune can be made from this which is a good sign.

I don't see many Kanosians here saying they have made a large amount of profit from Kanosis at the moment and surely by now some refferal income has been earned.

Finally I see Kanosis is arranging for an official forum to discuss the opportunity in an uncensored environment. Well you can't get more uncensored than here so maybe we will be the offical forum not the Kanosis.org site.

[logicRules]

Look Arzel, you made an erroneous assumption based on just a portion of the puzzle, and your just going to have to live with it.

Originally posted by Arzel
My analysis is based purely on factYour analysis? Analysis defined, is a separation of a thing into the parts or elements of which it is composed - or - an examination of a thing to determine its parts or elements, which can include a statement showing the results of such an examination.

Lets call it what it is - you drew a conclusion of deceitful intent on the part of Kanosis based on nothing more than a scrolling line of pictures that, in your opinion, was not statistically accurate of the actual member base. You already brought that up, and I already replied that I did not consider that significant due to the fact that, with just a little diligence, one would discover the link to access all the member photos one could care to see, and if you would do this, you would admit that the photos that cycle as you use the link, do accurately represent the Kanosis community - IMO.

Originally posted by Arzel
If anything my credibility should take a jump because I was able to discern a statistical inference that you were not able to notice.Another leap to conclusion!! Who says I was not able to notice? Of course I noticed that the scrolling line of pictures was a small set of the same photos as I believe anyone would. And again, insignificant in the big picture - you decided to pick on something that you saw as an easy target, and when you were shown that it is meaningless when seen in light of the fact that hundreds of other photos are readily available - you go to a defensive position to protect your opinion.

Originally posted by Arzel
...therefore logically a reasonable interpretation is that you are biased in that you fail to see my logic because it goes against your financial gain. Yet another leap to conclusion. Yes I am a member as I tell everyone. Your statement suggests that logic would dictate that I cannot remain unbiased because I am a member. So do you want me to stop posting? The fact that I openly tell everyone that I am a member, should alert all to take that into consideration when reading what I post. This allows anyone reading what I post to watch for signs of bias, and keep that in consideration. I can tell you that my intention is to avoid bias, and I believe that in our exchange, I am not expressing a biased opinion - I have been challenging yours.
Your just trying to muddy the waters with this one.

And I did say that I did NOT like the trailer - I would not admit that if I were biased in favor of anything Kanosis did.

Are you ready to lay this one to rest, and move on to other points of interest?

I believe Webwatch is doing a good job of trying to keep the discussion going in the right direction.

[Ferret]

Kanosis, pyramid scam or legit MLM?
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3878

6. Legitimate MLMs should not falsely represent, expressly or by implication, the amount of earnings or income that can be, or which is likely to be, derived from participation in the MLM.

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received any commissions, bonuses or overrides;

* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;

* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;

* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5713/image0083ir.gif

These red flags are
2) a lack of retail sales, especially when sales occur only between people in the pyramid structure or to new recruits, not to consumers in the general public.

In contrast to an illegal pramid scheme, a legitimate MLM has a real, marketable product or service to sell, one that is sold to the general public without requiring consumers to pay an additional fee to join the MLM program. MLMs may pay commissions to a long string of distributors, but these commissions are paid for actual retail sales, not for obtaining new recruits

[Arzel]

I was debating on letting this die, but you have made a couple of statements I must address.

Look Arzel, you made an erroneous assumption based on just a portion of the puzzle, and your just going to have to live with it.

My analysis is based purely on fact

Your analysis? Analysis defined, is a separation of a thing into the parts or elements of which it is composed - or - an examination of a thing to determine its parts or elements, which can include a statement showing the results of such an examination.

I suppose that is one definition of analysis, but my analysis was a statistical analysis, where you test the likelihood of an event happening.


Lets call it what it is - you drew a conclusion of deceitful intent on the part of Kanosis based on nothing more than a scrolling line of pictures that, in your opinion, was not statistically accurate of the actual member base. You already brought that up, and I already replied that I did not consider that significant due to the fact that, with just a little diligence, one would discover the link to access all the member photos one could care to see, and if you would do this, you would admit that the photos that cycle as you use the link, do accurately represent the Kanosis community - IMO.


This is untrue. I have said multiple times I don't have a problem with it. And to be completely honest I wasn't even aware of the other pictures until after I begain to test my hypothesis. When I have gone to the Kanosis website I look for information about COIL or other software, of which there is very little. You say that my analysis is faulty, but you are actually agreeing with me. I said the scrolling list is not representative of the group as a whole. Your defense is that you can see a representative group by searching the whole site, thus you are changing my analysis to fit your conclusion.


Are you ready to lay this one to rest, and move on to other points of interest?

I believe Webwatch is doing a good job of trying to keep the discussion going in the right direction.


I would wish that you and some other Kanosians would discuss the pryamidal nature of Kanosis.

[amazingplace]

Finally I see Kanosis is arranging for an official forum to discuss the opportunity in an uncensored environment. Well you can't get more uncensored than here so maybe we will be the offical forum not the Kanosis.org site.

I just have to say, the kanosis.org forum is quite a joke of a "community". The dude "Patrick" is fairly clueless :head: to say the least when it comes to running an open discussion forum.

The person who told me about COIL emailed meto tell me that he was banned from that forum because he wasn't towing the line :bow: . He says he had posts that were critical of kanosis.org becoming the "official" forum deleted and other posts edited.

BTW -- I think I read here that patrick claims to just be a member of the kanosis.org forum when in actuality I think he is the owner of the site.

[Ferret]

I just have to say, the kanosis.org forum is quite a joke of a "community". The dude "Patrick" is fairly clueless :head: to say the least when it comes to running an open discussion forum.
See my post #88 (11 up) for more on kanosis.org

They only seem to have 14 active members anyway......
The reason they have 127 registered users is because you have to register to read the posts

.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosis.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123

I like how some people in kanosis, even better in here cant even follow simple rules put in front of them. I've been looking to join kanosis, but why when some people "so called active members trying to make things better" cant follow simple rules and regulations placed forh by kanosis. As it stats in kanosis rules and regulations no advertising in pre-launch phase. Now lets think why kanosis is in the spot light of matrix watch right now. . . . . . Thanks to people like Jon, Superkanosian for breaking simple rules put before them are jeopordizing the future of kanosis. I cant even see how a forum supposed to help people about kanosis put members as mods that cant even follow rules set forth by the company you are in. And these are supposed to be experts.... lol thats funny And if these people think they know about kanosis or coil then i must be god. Im disappointed you guys cant even get that simple part right, so i dont see how you can answer any of my questions about kanosis. Please enlighten me on this matter

[logicRules]

Ok, this is the last time I post on this - no applause please!

Originally posted by Arzel
I was debating on letting this die...I bet you were!

Originally posted by logicRules, and quoted by Arzel
Lets call it what it is - you drew a conclusion of deceitful intent on the part of Kanosis based on nothing more than a scrolling line of pictures that, in your opinion, was not statistically accurate of the actual member base. You already brought that up, and I already replied that I did not consider that significant due to the fact that, with just a little diligence, one would discover the link to access all the member photos one could care to see, and if you would do this, you would admit that the photos that cycle as you use the link, do accurately represent the Kanosis community - IMO. Your response:Originally posted by Arzel
This is untrue. I have said multiple times I don't have a problem with it.So you didn't actually use the words, "I have a problem with it", this is how children argue. I have always said that it was what you were implying that I took issue with, again shown here: Originally posted by Arzel
But in response to Ferret I was thinking the same thing, but it is also a wise marketing ploy, and is sure to attract some men into the mix on the off chance that they will be able to meet some of these women, the probability of so many attractive women being displayed by chance is all but impossible. Now what it the implication here? Normal acceptable business practice, or deceitful sneaky business practice to entice a certain male population.
It's not even open for interpretation!
Originally posted by Arzel
Your defense is that you can see a representative group by searching the whole site, thus you are changing my analysis to fit your conclusion.I never "changed" your analysis, I said that it was insignificant when one realizes that hundreds more pictures are one click away.
And even so, upon taking a closer look at the infamous 17 scrolling pictures, it looks pretty close to a representative sample after all, IMO.

Finally, I think that the both of us have posted enough on this so that anyone reading this sub-thread if I may, certainly have enough from both sides of the debate to draw their own conclusions.

Have a nice day! :)

[Arzel]

Logic Rules,

Are you done now?

[jlatenight]

Ok, I've been reading every post here for weeks and have to jump in...

Are the "locals" here at Matrixwatch against network marketing as a whole? Are there any network marketing companies in their opinions that aren't "scams"? I am a Kanosis member and I joined because I see serious potential in the COIL product, and I have my own ideas of what they could add using the Kanosis community as the foundation that would really add value to the service. I like the idea of using a product, introducing it to my friends which I would do anyway if I liked it, and making some money doing it. Why is it such a bad thing for there not to be the option to opt-out of the matrix? It sounds like they will eventually have that option, but why would someone want to opt-out of it? They either decide to actively work on building their downline, or they don't and just use the service, right? So?

I look at my membership like an investment in the company. They don't have a finished product that I feel is worth the monthly fee yet, but they have a good working model, what's known as a BETA, and I decided to join to see what develops. $59 and ($22/mo) is an inexpensive investment IMHO. I make sure to tell everyone that considers kanosis that, like any new company, there is risk with this, it may never fully materialize the way you expect, and it may never "take off". Isn't that the same thought process as buying stock in a company in it's early stages? I.e. there's a solid idea with real potential, and it remains to be seen if it is executed successfully?

Some of you people need to get a hobby or something. Or is blasting companies with no more than huge assumptions given the history of past MLM scams, your hobby? Is it even possible in your mind that Kanosis may have only the best intentions with truly innovative ideas for marketing software, online services, and for building a trusted online community? I think, in your minds, it would be worse to admit your wrong than discover through objective debate that your initial assumptions were incorrect. What would be worse in your mind: being proven wrong, or finding out Kanosis is a legit company?

[Patrick]

http://www.kanosis.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123


Ok so what we have a forum section on kanosis.org dedicated to kanosis and its product.
Are you missing the other section, tech forum? kanosis.org isn’t all about just kanosis and the product.

It’s more as in all “general” message board

Take video game companies they have separate message boards for each game.

That’s how kanosis.org works; it’s a general message board.


P.S. its not about kanosis.org is it ?

[Ferret]

Huh??? :confused:
Thanks Patrick
You just demonstrated very well why kanosis.org should not and will not be the official Kanosis forum :p

You only have 14 active members anyway

I liked this post a lot lol

Originally Posted by dutchie
I voted, Yes!!!

When I first founded this forum, I thought this was the official one. LOL…I was testing some url’s comparing kanosis and then this one popped up.

Patrick, Why would they think you are greedy? That make no sense.

Isn't it the whole concept to get more (as many) people familiar with Kanosis and Coil?

That you will profit from the signups you get, is all played by the game. There rules, that’s what MLM is all about.

Don’t you think that the founders and staff workers shall have much higher positions then we have? Maybe within the first 4 levels, so how is greedy?

Beside I don’t think they think that you think that they think you are greedy (LOL), you run and designed it free of chare for them and even you don't get paid for the job. So if the benefit comes along in collecting a referral, I see it as a paycheck.
How many people are going to help there downline, really? Not to speak over non downline members?

Not much I assume.

One other thing, don’t foul yourselves, we are all in also because the monies.

How(Who) doesn’t want to earn 36K :eek: max.?

Why paying a full amount of the product rent, when the product itself isn't fully operational?

If you only are interested in the product you don’t purchase it now, but waited.

My vision is to help each other and potential costumers in achieving there goals, even none related downliners. Why? Because we are all Kanosians and as you can see the big picture, the more stable the company gets, the more benefits we all get.

dutchie

[Patrick]

Ok... 14 active members good for me I suppose. :applause:

Go on with your life and talk about some real issues. :rolleyes:

[Ferret]

I have been.....
You guys don't have any answers to the hard questions ;)

Kanosis, pyramid scam or legit MLM?
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3878

6. Legitimate MLMs should not falsely represent, expressly or by implication, the amount of earnings or income that can be, or which is likely to be, derived from participation in the MLM.

Further, pursuant to statutory guidelines and existing case law, MLMs must disclose the following:

* The number and percentage of current participants who have not received ANY commissions, bonuses or overrides;

* The median amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides received by all participants, together with the percentage of participants that have received less and those that have received more;

* The average amount of commissions, bonuses and overrides that have been received by all participants;

* For each level and rank within the plan, the number and percentage of current participants that have reached that level or rank, and the average length of time it took to reach that level.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/5713/image0083ir.gif

These red flags are
2) a lack of retail sales, especially when sales occur only between people in the pyramid structure or to new recruits, not to consumers in the general public.

In contrast to an illegal pramid scheme, a legitimate MLM has a real, marketable product or service to sell, one that is sold to the general public without requiring consumers to pay an additional fee to join the MLM program. MLMs may pay commissions to a long string of distributors, but these commissions are paid for actual retail sales, not for obtaining new recruits

[Arzel]

Ok, I've been reading every post here for weeks and have to jump in...

Are the "locals" here at Matrixwatch against network marketing as a whole? Are there any network marketing companies in their opinions that aren't "scams"? I am a Kanosis member and I joined because I see serious potential in the COIL product, and I have my own ideas of what they could add using the Kanosis community as the foundation that would really add value to the service. I like the idea of using a product, introducing it to my friends which I would do anyway if I liked it, and making some money doing it. Why is it such a bad thing for there not to be the option to opt-out of the matrix? It sounds like they will eventually have that option, but why would someone want to opt-out of it? They either decide to actively work on building their downline, or they don't and just use the service, right? So?

I look at my membership like an investment in the company. They don't have a finished product that I feel is worth the monthly fee yet, but they have a good working model, what's known as a BETA, and I decided to join to see what develops. $59 and ($22/mo) is an inexpensive investment IMHO. I make sure to tell everyone that considers kanosis that, like any new company, there is risk with this, it may never fully materialize the way you expect, and it may never "take off". Isn't that the same thought process as buying stock in a company in it's early stages? I.e. there's a solid idea with real potential, and it remains to be seen if it is executed successfully?

Some of you people need to get a hobby or something. Or is blasting companies with no more than huge assumptions given the history of past MLM scams, your hobby? Is it even possible in your mind that Kanosis may have only the best intentions with truly innovative ideas for marketing software, online services, and for building a trusted online community? I think, in your minds, it would be worse to admit your wrong than discover through objective debate that your initial assumptions were incorrect. What would be worse in your mind: being proven wrong, or finding out Kanosis is a legit company?

There probably is a pretty good range of opinions regarding legitimate MLM's, and there are a few I personally don't have a problem with.

The first question to answer is what is a scam?

Clearly a company designed to take your money with little or no intention of either paying you or anyone else is a scam. Clearly any company which uses proceeds from new members to pay members as the primary source of revenue is a Ponzi, Pryamid, or Matrix scheme (scam). Also any company that is a legitimate MLM model which uses unreasoble expectation of finicial gain as a way to bring in new members is a scam in my eyes.

Many players of these schemes don't consider them to be scams until they stop paying (which is naive in my opinion), so it is difficult to come to an agreement on what a scam is when viewed by different perspectives.

Kanosis currently is acting as a Pryamid scheme thus would be considered a scam in my eyes. They have stated that they will have over 70% of their revenue from outside their membership base after they go public, and by the end of the year (in which case they would be a legitimate MLM).

Kanosis also currently promotes the money making aspect of being a member, not as much as they did earlier, but they still do. Also many members tout the prospect of making substantial passive income by purely being a member (which makes them scam by proxy in my eyes).

I don't know when you got into Kanosis, but chances are very small that you will ever see the kinds of returns advertised by some members, and if you are a new member you will be lucky to be making more than you put in by the end of the year.

It is difficult to answer your final question as it is very leading. What would be worse would be for us to not say anything and then have thousands of people throw their money away.

[jlatenight]

There probably is a pretty good range of opinions regarding legitimate MLM's, and there are a few I personally don't have a problem with.

The first question to answer is what is a scam?

Clearly a company designed to take your money with little or no intention of either paying you or anyone else is a scam. Clearly any company which uses proceeds from new members to pay members as the primary source of revenue is a Ponzi, Pryamid, or Matrix scheme (scam). Also any company that is a legitimate MLM model which uses unreasoble expectation of finicial gain as a way to bring in new members is a scam in my eyes.

Many players of these schemes don't consider them to be scams until they stop paying (which is naive in my opinion), so it is difficult to come to an agreement on what a scam is when viewed by different perspectives.

Kanosis currently is acting as a Pryamid scheme thus would be considered a scam in my eyes. They have stated that they will have over 70% of their revenue from outside their membership base after they go public, and by the end of the year (in which case they would be a legitimate MLM).

Kanosis also currently promotes the money making aspect of being a member, not as much as they did earlier, but they still do. Also many members tout the prospect of making substantial passive income by purely being a member (which makes them scam by proxy in my eyes).

I don't know when you got into Kanosis, but chances are very small that you will ever see the kinds of returns advertised by some members, and if you are a new member you will be lucky to be making more than you put in by the end of the year.

It is difficult to answer your final question as it is very leading. What would be worse would be for us to not say anything and then have thousands of people throw their money away.

If they have a solid product that anyone with a computer could benefit from, assuming they will when they go live 5/1, how would people be throwing their money away if they weren't making money off the business-side? They would still be getting a valuable multi-faceted service at a fair price. There are online-storage sites (ad-free pay sites) that charge just as much or more for less online storage space. 5GB for $22/mo., plus the COIL interface, plus the community side, plus the unique file sharing capabilities, plus the features yet to be added is pretty good IMO despite the matrix.

I would say I joined 40% for the business aspect and 60% for the product. To me, everyone that decides to join under me discounts my service by $1.10. Not bad. I'm not looking to make millions here. If I turn a profit...sweet! If not, I still have a secure 24/7 100% up-time online storage service with 5GB for $22/mo.

[Arzel]

If they have a solid product that anyone with a computer could benefit from, assuming they will when they go live 5/1, how would people be throwing their money away if they weren't making money off the business-side? They would still be getting a valuable multi-faceted service at a fair price. There are online-storage sites (ad-free pay sites) that charge just as much or more for less online storage space. 5GB for $22/mo., plus the COIL interface, plus the community side, plus the unique file sharing capabilities, plus the features yet to be added is pretty good IMO despite the matrix.

I would say I joined 40% for the business aspect and 60% for the product. To me, everyone that decides to join under me discounts my service by $1.10. Not bad. I'm not looking to make millions here. If I turn a profit...sweet! If not, I still have a secure 24/7 100% up-time online storage service with 5GB for $22/mo.

Your logic dictates you joined for the matrix more than you joined for the product. By your own admission the product is still Beta (which is a common theme regardless of what Jim has said), and many of the best features do not yet exist. So one would ask "Why join now? Why not wait until it is finished to determine if it might be worth the cost?" The answer is the money making aspect of being a member.

If (as is according to Kanosis) everyone had the same opportunity of making money regardless of when they join, there would be no reason to join until then, unless the service was usefull now. But as many have mentioned COIL is not complete, and many of the benefits not yet to be realised.

Clearly you understand that your future returns are based on when you join the Matrix, otherwise you would not have joined until it went "Live". This is my problem with Kanosis. Ask yourself why the matrix payment aspect of Kanosis was complete before any of their services or products?

I must also ask you if you found Kanosis because you were looking for a safe and secure internet environment or were you looking for a potential money-making scheme? If it was the former, how did you ever find out about Kanosis? Because it doesn't come up in any searches.

[jlatenight]

I admit the money making aspect is attractive. Network marketing gives me the ability to pay for a service, in my spare time become a pseudo-salesperson for the company and eventually get my service for free, and then make a profit just for using the service. That is a fantastic business model! What is so wrong with that?

The reason I joined now and not until after they go live is the same reason I would buy stock in a company while it is inexpensive with the potential it will increase in value. To me, it is an investment, with every risk it will not pay off. I'm fine with that.

I've listened to the conference calls so I know where the kanosis management is coming from, and I like what I hear. They have a real vision for where this service could go, and I personally buy into it. If you don't, that's fine by me, but stop with the righteous MLM vigilante routine. You guys should start a "stockwatch" website to help people avoid loosing real money, like retirement funds to the Enrons of the World.

I personally see a huge amount of potential in COIL, and I truly believe Application Service providers and SaaS (software as a Service) is where the Internet is heading. I believed that before I ever heard of Kanosis. We're all adults. You have to be an adult to join kanosis, unless you have written permission from a parent or guardian. I promise we can fend for ourselves and we'll be fine. I know for sure there are actual MLM scams out there with no real products being bought and sold at all. Why don't you do us all a favor and spend your time and effort on them instead?

[blape1]

how is kanosis planning on marketing itself starting may1?

[Ferret]

how is kanosis planning on marketing itself starting may1?
I am pretty sure they are relying on the 5000 "early birds" to do it

They are going to give you some videos to show to your potential downline
If they are anything like their "trailer" you are in trouble :p

As Alistar coined on the conference calls it will be Pandemic Marketing :D
He even mentioned the "bird flu" :crazy:
Pandemic Marketing is of course a Hyped up version of "viral marketing" which kanosis also mentions on their website

I hereby give Kanosis permission to use my slogan.....

Kanosis "Pandemic Marketing" Have you been infected yet?

"People are dying to use COIL"

[Arzel]

I admit the money making aspect is attractive. Network marketing gives me the ability to pay for a service, in my spare time become a pseudo-salesperson for the company and eventually get my service for free, and then make a profit just for using the service. That is a fantastic business model! What is so wrong with that?

The reason I joined now and not until after they go live is the same reason I would buy stock in a company while it is inexpensive with the potential it will increase in value. To me, it is an investment, with every risk it will not pay off. I'm fine with that.

I've listened to the conference calls so I know where the kanosis management is coming from, and I like what I hear. They have a real vision for where this service could go, and I personally buy into it. If you don't, that's fine by me, but stop with the righteous MLM vigilante routine. You guys should start a "stockwatch" website to help people avoid loosing real money, like retirement funds to the Enrons of the World.

I personally see a huge amount of potential in COIL, and I truly believe Application Service providers and SaaS (software as a Service) is where the Internet is heading. I believed that before I ever heard of Kanosis. We're all adults. You have to be an adult to join kanosis, unless you have written permission from a parent or guardian. I promise we can fend for ourselves and we'll be fine. I know for sure there are actual MLM scams out there with no real products being bought and sold at all. Why don't you do us all a favor and spend your time and effort on them instead?

Hey, you are free to spend your money as you wish, and when a company is brought to our attention that looks scammy I will call them on it.

As I have said from the beginning, their product does look like it has some value, my problem has always been the way it is being marketed. If it is such a great product, then why do you need to use a pyramidal money-making scheme to get people to use it? The product should be able to sell itself. Mostly I think people should know that there is virtually no way they will make money with this or any other pryamidal scheme.

[Ferret]

Options:
1) I would like to join Kanosis, but don't want to subscribe to COIL. Please click here. [$15 year]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) I would like to subscribe to COIL, but I don't want to join Kanosis or earn commissions. I understand that the pricing will be higher. Request pricing information. coilsales@kanosis.com
lol I think most Kanosis policies have being pushed by MatrixWatch

Kanosis never would have done this by themselves.......

I wonder how much more the COIL price is?
This is the sneakiest thing Kanosis has done yet

Who in their right mind would pay more and NOT be in the pyramid?
By their own admission there is a 70% marketing fee built into the $22 a month COIL subscription

They have fufilled the legal obligation but defeated it in the same move

Pure twisted genius, I think I will go back to calling them Scamosis :p

The PRE CHECKED OPTION still is for 3 months
That is another sneaky trick
Still waiting for someone to give me ONE good reason why anyone would want to pay more than a month at a time
There is an option to charge my credit card on a recurring monthly, quarterly, and/or yearly basis as selected above.

PS: I haven't forgotten about the 4.25% Credit Card processing fee to PAY

[Webwatch]

Firstly welcome to all the MMG and Kanosis.org members, and thank you for taking the time to register and post here.

One continual missconception is that we at Matrixwatch are too quick to cry scam and illegal without just cause, from my perspective the only reason the Kanosis threads where started was due to the Pyramidal Marketing technique which as it stands at the moment is illegal in some countries (not sure about the Cypriot Pyramid regulation's so I wont force this issue to much).

If or when Kanosis does allow its members to sell a product or service to end users without the need for that end user to become part of someones downline and then expected to recruit more members so it can be considered a more legal MLM I will post my approval. With the recent change to allow Customers possibly to purchase Coil directly from Kanosis at a higher price it does mean that an attempt has been made to accomodate this requirement but the point has been missed as its a negative option which is designed to lure customers into joining the Pyramid.

The coil software itself has shown that it may have some potential and although it may be argued that it is nothing more than a mish mash of freely available software hosted on a supposedly secure server it would be unfair of me to push this point to much as there are many arguments against this statement that have been discussed in these threads. As I also have no usage experience of Coil it would be irresponsible of me to use these arguments at the moment.

One thing that is clear however is that Kanosis themeselves used a no advertising clause in their terms and conditions for the very reasons that the MMG forum is demonstrating. i.e. Overhypeing downline building which will in turn bring other downline builder's causing aggresive competition between them which in turn will detract the attention of potential members away from the functuionaltiy of coil and make the whole pre-launch marketing hype nothing more than a Ponzi/Pyramid scheme excercise. See 1stepsystem & Bringyourbuddy for examples on how Ponzi pre-launchs phases work.

We are all free to spend our money as we choose all I want to do is allow a more informed decision to be made when confronted with another over hyped Pyramid Scheme. The very future of Kanosis is reliant on the movement away from this Pyramid Marketing structure which they have attempted to do in a small way be recently allowing someone to join for just the $15 a year and as mentioned in my previous post this still means becoming a member of the Pyramid albeit an innactive one.

The last thing I want to see is the $22 cv value slowly incresing over the coming months leading us to a YMMSS/STA situation in a few years time when due to the targeting of church groups and low income communities many have lost their savings.

So as i keep saying (I know your all getting bored of this now).
Look at Kanosis for the potential of Coil and not for the money making opportunity there are more schemes out there scamming people for this purpose and many more just round the corner which will promise much but deliver nothing.

[Ferret]

Hey, JimS
I see you reading this
What happened?
Cat got your tongue?

You said a long time ago that you would bring someone from kanosis to answer questions

You said weeks ago that the Founders bios would be on Kanosis

You said there would be changes to the website every few days

None of these happened

PS: How much is COIL by itself?
Why are you charging more for COIL when it is bought without being in the pyramid?
Can anyone answer this $64k question or should I say $36,043 question?

PPS: How do you like my slogan?
You have my permission to use it

[jlatenight]

If I have the option of signing-up for an online-storage/SAN (Security Access Network) service that doesn't have the possibility of making money with it, assuming it has all of the features as Kanosis which nothing does BTW, and Kanosis where I DO have the possibility of making money with it, assuming they are both competitively priced (which Kanosis is…actually cheaper that most I've found), I would choose the one that could make me money simply by telling my friends about it every time. Each person that decides to use the service discounts my service by $1.10/mo. Then eventually it's free, and then makes me a profit. I think that's sweet, and that's why hundreds of traditional companies are adopting a network marketing aspect to their business model. Because it's easy for the subscriber, it makes sense, and it increases the company's revenue to improve their service and offer new ones. What could be better??

[Arzel]

If I have the option of signing-up for an online-storage/SAN (Security Access Network) service that doesn't have the possibility of making money with it, assuming it has all of the features as Kanosis which nothing does BTW, and Kanosis where I DO have the possibility of making money with it, assuming they are both competitively priced (which Kanosis is…actually cheaper that most I've found), I would choose the one that could make me money simply by telling my friends about it every time. Each person that decides to use the service discounts my service by $1.10/mo. Then eventually it's free, and then makes me a profit. I think that's sweet, and that's why hundreds of traditional companies are adopting a network marketing aspect to their business model. Because it's easy for the subscriber, it makes sense, and it increases the company's revenue to improve their service and offer new ones. What could be better??

By the admission of several people, there are many features which are not yet in place, so that statement cannot be evaluated properly, plus we have found several services that over most of the services for free or basically free already.

Name a couple of traditional companies that are moving towards a pyramidal reimbursement plan, because this is the first I have heard that statement.

And most people will never make a profit, such is the nature of the pryamid.

[Arzel]

I also have the question for Kanosis.

Why does it cost more to use COIL if you are not a member of the compansation plan?

[jlatenight]

Name a couple of traditional companies that are moving towards a pyramidal reimbursement plan, because this is the first I have heard that statement.



After a quick search I found this: http://www.internetnextstep.com/mlmsecret.htm I cannot vouch for its validity, but might be a start:

"There are many myths about the industry of network marketing and the companies involved. It is true that many recognized traditional companies have started subsidiaries, such as Gillette, Colgate-Palmolive, Rexall and thousands of other companies that are using network marketing as their preferred method of distribution, creating sales of approximately $100 billion dollars. It is often stated that Coca-Cola, Goodyear, IBM, Firestone, and General Motors are involved in network marketing with their own divisions. Actually, these companies are suppliers of products to companies that utilize network marketing, such as Amway. MCI, U.S. Sprint and AT&T supply long distance service to network marketing companies that are rebillers. Due to the high cost of real estate for showrooms, Toyota of Japan uses direct sales to market directly to the consumer, but not network marketing."

[jlatenight]

According to the Wall Street Journal, Network Marketing is the means by which 50% to 60% of all goods and services will be distributed in the next few years. This is evidenced by the decline of many large well-established retail stores. Today, Network Marketing is a $50 Billion dollar industry with over seven million people involved as representatives of thousands of Network Marketing companies. Network Marketing represents the most powerful method of distributing products and services available today and for the next millennium.

[mpatient24]

I see that things are getting interesting again, but I haven't had time to go through and read everything since my last visit, or to reply. I will soon, but in the mean time.... Guess what number Kanosis just hit?? =)

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 40
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 5000

[Webwatch]

Hello Mpatient thanks for the update.

This Network Marketing confusion is still apparent i see.
There are many well known companies that use some form of network marketing but they don't all use a Pyramid Scheme Business model.

I am re-evaluating my position with the latest Kanosis developments but its not looking good.
I'm not sure if a company can sell the same product or service for 2 different prices with the lower price designed to entice a customer to engage in an illegal or immoral marketing scheme.

I suppose the argument that the lower price is because the customer is then working for Kanosis as a representative will appear soon.

[Arzel]

According to the Wall Street Journal, Network Marketing is the means by which 50% to 60% of all goods and services will be distributed in the next few years. This is evidenced by the decline of many large well-established retail stores. Today, Network Marketing is a $50 Billion dollar industry with over seven million people involved as representatives of thousands of Network Marketing companies. Network Marketing represents the most powerful method of distributing products and services available today and for the next millennium.

If you are going to make a statement like that, please provide a link. Also your previous link to a traditional company using a pryamidal payment plan doesn't actually contain any information that they are pryamidal, and the link is purely a pro-MLM article.

I suppose the logic of the article is that companies like Coca-cola use distributors to sell product in local areas, but that is a far cry from a pryamidal type scheme. One big factor you also have to consider is the nature of saturation.

By the logic you provide, McDonalds or any other francise company is in essense a network marketing company. Now it is true that all pay francise fees to the head McDonald's corp, but individual companies don't pay to an upline of other francise operators, and the point of the business is to own an actual business that is profitable, not to try and entice other people to start a francise. In fact if you want to start a francise you have to go through a lengthy process in order to ensure that you do not have market saturation. These are completely different processes than what Kanosis or other MLM companies do, and they are simply not comparable.

Things to look for.

The Federal Trade Commission cannot tell you whether a particular multilevel marketing plan is legal. Nor can it give you advice about whether to join such a plan. You must make that decision yourself. However, the FTC (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/invest/mlm.htm) suggests that you use common sense, and consider these seven tips when you make your decision:


Avoid any plan that includes commissions for recruiting additional distributors. It may be an illegal pyramid.

This certainly seems to include Kanosis

Beware of plans that ask new distributors to purchase expensive inventory. These plans can collapse quickly -- and also may be thinly-disguised pyramids.


Be cautious of plans that claim you will make money through continued growth of your "downline" -- the commissions on sales made by new distributors you recruit -- rather than through sales of products you make yourself.

Again Kanosis


Beware of plans that claim to sell miracle products or promise enormous earnings. Just because a promoter of a plan makes a claim doesn't mean it's true! Ask the promoter of the plan to substantiate claims with hard evidence.

Beware of shills -- "decoy" references paid by a plan's promoter to describe their fictional success in earning money through the plan.

Don't pay or sign any contracts in an "opportunity meeting" or any other high-pressure situation. Insist on taking your time to think over a decision to join. Talk it over with your spouse, a knowledgeable friend, an accountant or lawyer.

Do your homework! Check with your local Better Business Bureau and state Attorney General about any plan you're considering -- especially when the claims about the product or your potential earnings seem too good to be true.

[jlatenight]

In a recent issue of Fortune magazine (the one with Bill Gates on the cover) you'll find an interesting article focusing on the sputtering economy and the independent contractors (distributors) who are reenergizing the U.S. retail industry through the art of direct selling. Here are a few particularly interesting paragraphs:

"Call it the age of direct selling. With its emphasis on personal, one-on-one relationships between distributor and consumer, convenience, and a high degree of consumer education, the industry may be tailor-made for today's consumer and company."

"The result: The industry, with U.S. sales of $28.7 billion in 2002, up 7.5% from the year before, has become a magnet for both corporate behemoths lured by its efficiencies and dozens of entrepreneurs attracted by the lower cost of market entry ..."

"Last year, for example, Warren Buffett's biggest purchase was The Pampered Chef ... Hallmark's Binney and Smith is launching its own direct-selling company, called Big Yellow Box by Crayola ..."

"Most direct-selling businesses now employ a multilevel system, in which distributors earn money on their own sales in addition to those of people they recruit (called the 'downline') and individuals brought in by their personal recruits."

"That's different from the single-level approach, in which you only get commissions on your own sales. In 1990, about 20% of the Direct Selling Association members in the U.S. used the multilevel plan; today, it's about 80% ..."

"'I saw ... something that I could do with my sons,' said Russ Widger Sr., a former manufacturing company owner ... 'I thought, with this business, they could do in about 10 years or less what had taken me more than 20 years with conventional business.' "

"'{Direct sales} provided me with security that I would not have achieved if I had continued working a regular job,' claimed Meg Kelly-Smith, a former banking executive. 'I compressed an entire career's worth of earnings into about five or six years.' "

"A growing number of distributors are placing orders through their company's web site instead of using the usual faxes or snail-mail orders. Distributors are using ... websites for help in recruitment and training ... and as a channel for customer reordering."

"In 1990, Lisa Wilbur was laid off from her $15,000-a-year secretarial job, living in a 12 x 70 foot trailer with her husband, and trying her best to stave off creditors. Then she decided to sign on with Avon. Over the past ten years she's made more than $1.4 million in bonuses ... not every representative makes nearly that much money or wants to. Many reps ... get into the business with the intention of working part-time or even, say, earning a little extra round the holidays."

"Although today's economic times offer a variety of challenges, solutions are available for those individuals willing to seek them out. With direct selling companies providing alternate avenues for income generation, more and more people are able to give their current jobs the pink slip."

Fortune, The Power Issue, vol. 148, No. 3

[Arzel]

I don't have that issue of Fortune, and I am suspecting neither do you. What you posted was a direct copy of an MLM trying to use selected paragraphs from that fortune article as promotional material for joining that MLM. Without having the entire article it is difficult to determine the context of the article or determine if just selected parts of the article were taken and composed with that issue of Fortune (August 2003, not exactly recent).

Considering the source of your document, I can hardly call it an unbiased report, if someone actually has that issue it would be interesting to see how it compares with selected quotes taken from the article. Additionally there is no reported author of the information, so we have no idea who actually said these things.

If you can provide a similar piece of information that is not part of an existing MLM's hype it would be interesting to see.

Additionally, after doing a little more research, I see that this information is linked to one and only one company, which also claims to have copywrite over the information, which seems a little odd if it was indeed from fortune magazine.

[Webwatch]

I believe the full article can be found here:
http://www.timeinc.net/fortune/services/sections/fortune/corp/2003_08direct.html

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Jlatenight post above has been copied from the advertisng page of a Xango Juice distributors website http://www.formangosteen.com/fortune.asp which uses carefully selected paragraphs from the Fortune article to promote its business. :rolleyes:

Xango would need a thread of its own and I dont want to go off topic and discuss Xango juice-I can't afford it anyway as its $39 for a 25oz bottle. I think the same medicinal effects can be obtained from a $5 bottle of pomegranite juice according to another website I viewed. Similar Pyramid style marketing as Kanosis though albeit with an expensive (overpriced?) product. ;) You do however get a Marketing kit to become a distributor for that $39 or if you just want the Juice without the marketing kit I have found it for a snip at $25 on ebay. :D

Whereas Kanosis with its new Coil only option does the reverse of this and says its will be dearer to buy the Coil Service only and cheaper to join the matrix with the Coil service.

[Arzel]

I believe the full article can be found here:
http://www.timeinc.net/fortune/services/sections/fortune/corp/2003_08direct.html

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Jlatenight post above has been copied from the advertisng page of a Xango Juice distributors website http://www.formangosteen.com/fortune.asp which uses carefully selected paragraphs from the Fortune article to promote its business. :rolleyes:

Xango would need a thread of its own and I dont want to go off topic and discuss Xango juice-I can't afford it anyway as its $39 for a 25oz bottle. I think the same medicinal effects can be obtained from a $5 bottle of pomegranite juice according to another website I viewed. Similar Pyramid style marketing as Kanosis though albeit with an expensive (overpriced?) product. ;) You do however get a Marketing kit to become a distributor for that $39 or if you just want the Juice without the marketing kit I have found it for a snip at $25 on ebay. :D

Whereas Kanosis with its new Coil only option does the reverse of this and says its will be dearer to buy the Coil Service only and cheaper to join the matrix with the Coil service.

Good find Webwatch. I had looked for a while to find the whole article. It doesn't appear that everything attributed to the Fortune article was in that article, which might imply that only a few selected quotes where used and packed in with some other catch phrases which may or may not be true.

I didn't mention it earlier because I didn't want to go off topic either, but you can find the same article that Jlatenight posted on dozens of promotional webpages for Xango.

One final note on the Fortune article. This is still a little confusing as it is actually an issue of Time with a special Fortune section, so I don't know if was actually from Fortune magazine. In any case it appears to be a special advertizing section, which I would conclude to be a paid advertizement insert into the magazine, and not really a news report. And if you read the article you will notice it does not list really any of the problems with network marketing, and almost all of the quotes are from agents of the Direct Selling Association (DSA), and nothing more than self-promotion.

[Ferret]

I also have the question for Kanosis.

Why does it cost more to use COIL if you are not a member of the compensation plan?
Jim Southworth?

Steve Whittington?

Alistar Kildair?

mPatient24?

A kanosian?

Anyone at all? with an answer?

Also, how much $ is COIL without being in the pyramid?
Why doesn't it say how much for a single user on the website?
Is kanosis still deciding how much?

[Arzel]

Jim Southworth?

Steve Whittington?

Alistar Kildair?

mPatient24?

A kanosian?

Anyone at all? with an answer?

Also, how much $ is COIL without being in the pyramid?
Why doesn't it say how much for a single user on the website?
Is kanosis still deciding how much?

What is even more interesting is that you would have to pay more for a product that is not even finished.

[blape1]

Alright so I realize that most network marketing businesses are crap… xango juice and others are great examples of this. My only problem with matrix-based businesses are the way they market themselves. If these companies make it seem that huge profits are easily achievable, they are lying (unless u get in their in the beginning). Otherwise I don’t have a problem with them. My advice to Kanosis: don’t make income potential the focus of your marketing, because most people won’t break even. If they promote COIL primarily, and income potential as a bonus, then as far as I can see: Kanosis is a legitimate business with a decent product.

[Arzel]

Some of you may have noticed that Movies are coming to the internet.

CNN - Movie Downloads (http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/internet/04/03/dvd.downloads.ap/index.html)

One of the touted features of Kanosis of much discussion has been movie downloads, and specifically the ability to compress down to a managable size. However, as I read this article I wonder how it will fit into the Kanosis game plan. You can see that the movie industry is going to licience these sales to a couple specific companies, and have a pretty tight control over copying issues.

So I ask, is Kanosis part of this deal? It doesn't appear that they are, or quite how it would fit into their program, unless they are simply a portal to one of the existing companies. Since there is going to be tight controls over how the information is distributed I don't see how Kanosis will be able to change the format for compressing issues, but I could be wrong.

Any Kanosis people have any additional info on this issue?

[Arzel]

More mis-represented hype regarding Kanosis.

Posted on April 4th, makes a clear statement that this will bring financial freedom, and is slated to reach 10,000,000 users by May of 2006. Interesting considering they only have about 5,100 users as of the 4th of April.

http://www.ip97.com/kanosis_will_change_the_dcje.aspx

======================

Another site promoting easy money to be made.

http://www.nexclic.com/

======================

This site is blatently stating incomes of $36,000 a month by just introducing two people. They are also spaming the internet with self-promotional news releases about Kanosis.

http://www.kanosisprogram.com/

======================

Talk about an explosion of money-making sites. Just wait in a few more weeks you will start to get a ton of spam email regarding Kanosis.

[ycchen]

As a pyramid style company, kanosis executives would love to see more customers join the pyramid for whatever reasons (coil or pyramid profit), so there will be very little incentive of the kanosis executives to go after the "offenders".

On the other hand, they keep telling the critics (rhetorically) that they disapprove pyramid advertising at the prelaunch stage. :eek:

Of course, we are also intereted in whether they will allow the pyramid advertising after May 1st.

Since there are no penalties (show me if there is one) for violating their "no advertisement" before May 1, so their policy is just ingenuine. Everyone knows it, including the recruiters. That's the main reason why we see more and more competition among desperate kanosis recruiters in building their pyramid downline.

These recruiters know the rule of the pyramid scheme: get into the front row seat ), so they might enjoy the priviledge of the executives of making 36000 per month.

We really like to see kanosian executive who is in charge of marketing policy (definitely not Jim Southworth, I suppose) to address this serious inconsistency in their policy.

There are easy steps to prevent the violation(e.g. kicks the violators out of the pyramid). So, shortage of human power will not be the best excuse, right? :)

[zoemc]

Well it has taken about 9 hours to read through this thread but I must admit that I started to skip posts here and there at about page 18 onwards. :) No offence to anyone... Just became eager to comment.

I am actually interested in the software "service" and like so many others am very disappointed in the information provided about what this software "service" can do.

I first learned about Kanosis about a week ago when someone asked me if I had heard about a company that is setting up a number of servers throughout the world that will all be interconnected. You will be able to back up all your files on these servers and then share them with others and obviously have access to them from any computer.

I am in the Internet industry and so this excited me as I work with a team of people from other countries and being able to communicate on projects and share files etc all in the one place would be quite good.

Today I actually found out the name of this company being of course Kanosis.

I was actually sent to a conference call that was made. Sounded pretty good to me. Then I dug a little deeper, found their website and the information provided on the product itself upset me. There really was very little information to make an informed decision to "use" their service.

I will add here, that my business partner and I have designed our own software package and spent over a year doing this. It is something that slots in with the industry I am in and it is something that my clients request. The point here is... I am not supplying "free" demos to use the software but people want to see before they buy! So to help, I have created a number of videos that show you the user area. This can be done so easily these days with packages like Camtasia Studio.

This is something that I would think would benefit a software company no matter what their "marketing strategy" is.

The other thing that confuses me is "why not just have affiliates, rather than a matrix set up?"

Kanosis is paying 70% back to the "members". Imagine how "affiliates" would react if each sale they made would make 70% of the whole sale. Not just $1 something.

I would have thought that having a set up like that would have people clambering over each other to try and promote a site. And then you are rewarded DIRECTLY for your efforts.

And then of course you are relying on the product to be useful for continued membership. But Kanosis is saying that that is their intention anyway.

So I will try and break down my long post (sorry) into the two main points.

1. Why not try and focus on the "service", introduce video demonstrations, and have the "promotional" aspects as a side note - even a separate site.

2. Why a matrix set up? Why not just have affiliates?

[Ferret]

Kanosis Terms and Conditions

Kanosis International Pre-launch Terms and Conditions:

The following terms and conditions shall apply and therefore remain effective from 7 December 2005, until either revised or revolked by Kanosis International (Kanosis).


Any individual of legal age ( this age is determined by the legal age you may enter into a contract in the jurisdiction that you reside) or any legal entity such as a company, trust, business or foundation may take a single position as a Kanosis Independent Community Member with Kanosis. Those individuals or entities who take a position in Kanosis will, after the pre launch period, will be required to provide legal proof of identity. Such proof will be in the form of government issued identity such as a driver’s license, passport, social security number or certificate of incorporation. Those not of legal age may still participate with the written permission of a parent or legal guardian. This legal proof of identity will be required for you to receive or continue to receive commissions.


By proceeding with this online application, I am applying to become a Kanosis Independent Community Member. I have carefully read and agree to all the Terms and Conditions in this document and I understand and agree that I will need to reconfirm my position as a Kanosis Independent Community Member when the company officially launches. I understand that at the time of this confirmation I will be asked to agree to the full Policies and procedures that will be published at that time. A Kanosis Independent Community Member has the right to cancel their Agreement with Kanosis at any time, regardless of reason. Cancellation must be submitted in writing to Kanosis at its principal place of business in Cyprus.


As used throughout these terms and conditions, the term “Agreement” shall collectively refer to the Kanosis Independent Community Member Application and Agreement as well the Kanosis Marketing and Compensation Plan. These documents, in their current form and as amended by Kanosis, at its sole discretion, are incorporated by reference into these terms and conditions, and constitute the entire contract between Kanosis and Independent distributors. No other representation, promise, or agreement, shall be binding on the parties unless in writing and signed by an authorized officer of Kanosis.


I agree that as a Kanosis Independent Community Member I am an independent contractor, and not an employee, agent, partner, legal representative, or franchisee of Kanosis. I UNDERSTAND THAT I SHALL NOT BE TREATED AS AN EMPLOYEE OF KANOSIS FOR TAX PURPOSES. Kanosis is not responsible for withholding, and shall not withhold or deduct from my bonuses and commissions, taxes of any kind, unless such withholding is or becomes legally required.


I agree to present the Kanosis Marketing and Compensation Plan fairly and completely. I shall never represent that the purchase of any goods or services are required to participate at any level of the Kanosis program.


I understand that Kanosis does not guarantee or warrant that Community Members will earn an income. Under no circumstances shall I represent that a Kanosis Independent Community Member is guaranteed an income. I understand that my income is dependent on the sales of Kanosis goods and services to end-users. Accordingly, I shall not represent that commissions or bonuses may be earned by the mere act of enrolling other Community Members.


Kanosis, its directors, officers, shareholders, employees, assigns, and agents (collectively referred as “affiliates”), shall not be liable for, and I release Kanosis and its affiliates from, and waive all claims for, consequential and exemplary damages arising from or relating to Kanosis’s performance of its duties and obligations under the Agreement. I further agree to hold harmless and indemnify Kanosis and its affiliates from any claims and/or liability arising from or relating to the promotion or operation of my Kanosis business and any activities related to it (e.g., the presentation of Kanosis products or Compensation and Marketing Plan, the operation of a motor vehicle, the lease of meeting or training facilities, etc.).


I may not assign any rights or delegate my duties under this Agreement without the prior written consent of Kanosis. Any attempt to transfer or assign this Agreement without the express written consent of Kanosis renders this Agreement voidable at the option of Kanosis and may result in disciplinary action.


I understand that the Agreement may be amended at the sole discretion of Kanosis, and I agree that all such amendments will apply to me. Amendments shall become effective upon publication in official Kanosis literature. The continuation of my Kanosis business or my acceptance of bonuses or commissions shall constitute my acceptance of any and all amendments.


The term of this Agreement is one year. There will be an annual renewal fee for Community Members. Kanosis reserves the right to take disciplinary action for Community Member who violates the Agreement, or who engages in any conduct that, in Kanosis’s sole discretion, damages Kanosis’s reputation, or which is a violation of any law, regulation, or ordinance.


Community Members may cancel this agreement at any time, and for any reason, by giving written notice to the Company at its principal business address.


If any provision of this Agreement is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable, and the balance of the Agreement will remain in full force and effect.


If my Community Membership Agreement is cancelled or terminated at any time for any reason, I understand that I will permanently lose all rights as a Community Member, including but not limited to rights to bonuses and commissions. I further agree to waive all rights and claims to my prior marketing organization, including but not limited to any property rights that I may have.


Legal proof of Identity must besupplied to Kanosis in order to be able to receive Commissions. This will apply from the date of the official launch only.


To ensure that Kanosis meets regulatory requirements in ensuring that this system is not used in the funding of terrorism and money laundering activities, we are required to obtain, verify, and record information that identifies each member opening an account. What this means for you is that we will ask for your name, address, date of birth, and other information that will allow us to identify you. To verify this information, we may request identifying documents and obtain reports from third parties, such as credit reporting agencies.


I confirm that when Kanosis officially launches that I will read and agree to the international Policy & Procedures and confirm I will at all times fully and totally comply with all my legal and moral obligations referred to therein as if the same forms part and parcel of this Agreement. I acknowledge the Policies & Procedures can be amended by you from time to time as Kanosis sees fit.


All order dates and times are entered in Cyprus Time, not local time.


In the pre launch period the promotion of the Kanosis opportunity is restricted to personal invitation only. ADVERTISING IS PERMITTED IN THE PRE-LAUNCH PERIOD, SUBJECT TO THE ADVERTISING TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Email invitations are to be to known friends and associates only. NO SPAMMING IS PERMITTED. Any persons or entities caught spamming will be terminated immediately.

Kanosis Advertising Policies and Procedures.

During the Kanosis pre-launch phase there has been a blanket ban on advertising. This ban has now been lifted and you may promote Kanosis according to the rules for approved forms of advertising set out in this document.

The following are the guidelines for various approved forms of advertising. Any Kanosis Member that ignores these rules will have their membership instantly and permanently cancelled.

General Rules

Media Relations
There is a complete ban on press releases or any form of promotion that resembles a press release by Kanosis members. The Kanosis corporate head office will handle all press releases and press enquiries. All enquiries that you may receive from the media MUST be referred to head office. [Insert the contact details here].

Advertising Content
The following rules regarding advertising content must be adhered to in all forms of advertising that use Kanosis material or material that refers to Kanosis:

You MAY:

Describe the Kanosis Family Payment Tree (Family Tree) and how many positions exist in a Kanosis Family Tree.
Describe the percentage paid out on sale of a Coil subscription and quantify that percentage with a figure, i.e. $1.10 USD per subscription.
State that you are an independent distributor of Kanosis or an independent community member.
Enroll individuals or companies and offer them the opportunity to participate in any promotional campaigns you are running.
Make reference to the fact that spillover can occur in some circumstances due to the structure of the Kanosis Family Tree.

You MAY NOT:

Make claims regarding income or make income projections.
Show any calculations, for example 32766 x $1.10 = $36,042.60
Use personal income statements or claims, or use other members’ income statements or claims in promoting Kanosis.
Represent yourself as an employee or representative of Kanosis.
Use the term Matrix in any reference to Kanosis or its payment structure.
Enroll individuals or companies into Kanosis with the promise of building the business for them.
Enroll individuals or companies into Kanosis with the promise of receiving spillover.
Any use of the Kanosis logo or trademarks is by written permission only and when using the trademark or logo you must clearly identify that you are an independent distributor or independent community member.


Email campaigns

Any email campaigns that you undertake and that refer to Kanosis must be to individuals with whom you have a provable relationship.
In the circumstance that you use purchased email lists you must have proof that the people included on the list have requested information on a business opportunity, or any other related topics, before you send them information that relates to Kanosis.

You may not use your Kanosis email address for mass emailing unless you have a provable relationship with the email recipients.

Web Sites

Any websites that are currently being used to promote Kanosis must be submitted for approval by Kanosis Limited. You must make your application for approval before April 15th 2006.

To have your website approved please send the web address, your contact information and your username to, marketing@kanosis.com.

Please note that the approval process takes up to 21 days. You will receive written approval or the changes required to gain approval within this period. After making the required changes you must resubmit your site for final approval.

Any use of the Kanosis logo or trademarks is by permission only and when using the trademark or logo you must clearly identify that you are an independent distributor or independent community member.

Any website must adhere to the general advertising rules.

The Kanosis affiliate websites will be acceptable for all forms of promotion once they are available.

Web Links

You may add a web link from your existing site provided the link is to an approved website or the Kanosis website.

Web Blogs

The use of web blogs is permitted subject to adhering to the general rules as specified above.

Kanosis may from time-to-time ban discussions that refer to Kanosis or its copyrighted material on specific blogs if the site is deemed by the management to be a disreputable site or detrimental to the image of Kanosis.

Media Advertising

Any media advertising of any sort that uses the trademarks or logos of Kanosis or Coil must receive written authorization prior to publication. Any such advertising that has not received written authorization is banned and will result in the responsible person’s Kanosis membership being immediately and permanently cancelled.

Authorization may be obtained by submitting final advertising copy along with details of the proposed advertising medium to marketing@kanosis.com.

Authorization may take up to 21 days. No advertising is deemed authorized unless you have written authorization from Kanosis.

Any advertising that does not make reference to Kanosis or Coil does not require advertising approval.

Retail Promotion

The promotion of Kanosis in retail environments is approved subject to adherence to the general rules written above.

Trade Shows

Promotion of Kanosis at trade shows is permitted subject to the general rules specified above. After the launch of Kanosis a policy of one distributor stand per trade show will be implemented. The approval process for this will be published.

[Ferret]

Those that join are placed in your global distribution channel that begins with you when you join the business.

This is a 2 X 14 level forced distribution channel, which contains a total of 32,766 positions that can be filled by individuals or businesses.

Kanosis pays a total of 70% of the commission value of each product purchased, at a rate of 5% per position per level.

In the case of Coil , the commission value is the same as the monthly subscription price, $22 USD. This means $1.10 is paid out to you on each position in your channel that subscribes to Coil down to the 14th level.

To Qualify to Earn Commissions you must:
Be a paid community member and purchase products from Kanosis with a minimum commission value of $22 USD each month.
Personally enroll 2 people or businesses into Kanosis who meet the first criteria.

The distribution channel is a forced channel. This means after your first two positions are filled any one that you register will be placed under one of those first two positions. This means that the position that they are placed under can financially benefit from that person and those people or business that they bring in. This is conditional upon them meeting the 2 criteria listed above.

[Webwatch]

Hang on, this is strange because your not allowed to call your downline/upline a matrix even though thats what it is.
So can members call it a Pyramid then or do they have to stick to the Global Distribution Channel (GDC) or Forced Distribution Channel (FDC).

Nice to see that all the websites have to be passed by Kanosis though.
I agree to present the Kanosis Marketing and Compensation Plan fairly and completely. I shall never represent that the purchase of any goods or services are required to participate at any level of the Kanosis program.Does this mean I can participate without buying any goods or services or that you can't tell me I can't participate without buying goods or services.:confused:

So the unstoppable Kanosis train rolls on to its inevitable conclusion.
Whatever happens there is enough information in these threads to allow for an informed decision to be made on whether the opportunity is for you or not.

[Ferret]

www.GlobalDistributionChannelWatch.org

[Arzel]

Not too suprising, I am actually a little suprised that they called it a Matrix in the first place (other than to attract the attention of the matrix/ponzi players).

The word Matrix was a variation of the word Pyramid (which of course has a bad reputation). It seems that the word Matrix is approaching that same reputation, and so a new word has been invented. I also see they are using the term "Family Tree" which can also be viewed as a Pryamid or Matrix.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/support/lang/english

Is Kanosis Pyramid selling?


No we do not sell pyramids. They are too heavy and expensive to ship!

It is however a question that comes up as people introduce the concept to others. The first thing you should ask someone who tells you this is a pyramid scam is to have them put it in writing and sign it with their name and address on it. What they are doing is making a legal claim that amounts to slander. You could ask them to draw the shape of any corporation or even the US government. They are all shaped like a pyramid. The best explanation for those that are actually interested is as follows:

The Network marketing industry is now over 55 years old and it currently does in excess of 100 billion USD in turn over PA. Despite this you cannot go to any authority and have your business model approved or judged to be legal or illegal. Only a Judge can make that determination. That will only happen if the authorities decide to take action. However over the past 55 years some clear precedents have been set for what is considered an illegal pyramid scheme and a legitimate networking business.

1. You cannot get paid for recruiting people.

In Kanosis you make no commissions when people join as a community member and pay their annual membership fee. As a community member you are free to buy products that Kanosis has available but you are under no obligation to promote the business side of Kanosis. If you do not promote it then you are not entitled to earn commissions from purchases made by people in your matrix. If you do meet the criteria as set out in the marketing plan then you will earn commissions on purchases made by those people that are in your personal matrix.

2. Your payment matrix cannot go on forever. This would mean the person at the top of the matrix would always make the most money.
The Kanosis model cuts off after the 14th level. It is always possible that someone joining your business could make more money than you.

3. You must sell a genuine product. You cannot sell for example bottles of fairy breath for $50.00 a bottle.

The COIL product is a serious software offering that has been developed over the last six years. Over 60,000 programming hours have gone into its development.

4. The product must be sold at a legitimate price. This area is always open to debate. As a rule it means you can’t take a bar of soap that you can buy in the supermarket for $2 and package it into a network business and sell it for $10.

The COIL offering has been valued at over $100 a seat per month in the corporate market place. Many of those people purchasing the COIL subscription will save more than the subscription cost from their use of the product.

You must also be careful on how you present the product. It is not a get rich quick scheme. It is a legitimate business opportunity and must be presented as such. You must not make financial inducements to people to join the business. For example you cannot say ”if you join this company you will make $30,000 a month”. You can explain the simple marketing plan and show them how much they will get paid on each subscription if they meet the requirements of the plan.

Always be aware that the world is full of negative “experts” that will be more than happy to show their ignorance and set you right to “protect” you. Time and success is the best answer to those people.
Kanosis is breaking its own rule

Bad, bad kanosis :nono:
matrix is a bad word :rolleyes:

[Ferret]

2) I would like to subscribe to COIL, but I don't want to join Kanosis or earn commissions. I understand that the pricing will be higher. Request pricing information.
Well JimSouthworth, how much is the price?
i think this is the same time this week

[ycchen]

Well it has taken about 9 hours to read through this thread but I must admit that I started to skip posts here and there at about page 18 onwards. :) No offence to anyone... Just became eager to comment.

I am actually interested in the software "service" and like so many others am very disappointed in the information provided about what this software "service" can do.

I first learned about Kanosis about a week ago when someone asked me if I had heard about a company that is setting up a number of servers throughout the world that will all be interconnected. You will be able to back up all your files on these servers and then share them with others and obviously have access to them from any computer.

I am in the Internet industry and so this excited me as I work with a team of people from other countries and being able to communicate on projects and share files etc all in the one place would be quite good.

Today I actually found out the name of this company being of course Kanosis.

I was actually sent to a conference call that was made. Sounded pretty good to me. Then I dug a little deeper, found their website and the information provided on the product itself upset me. There really was very little information to make an informed decision to "use" their service.

I will add here, that my business partner and I have designed our own software package and spent over a year doing this. It is something that slots in with the industry I am in and it is something that my clients request. The point here is... I am not supplying "free" demos to use the software but people want to see before they buy! So to help, I have created a number of videos that show you the user area. This can be done so easily these days with packages like Camtasia Studio.

This is something that I would think would benefit a software company no matter what their "marketing strategy" is.

The other thing that confuses me is "why not just have affiliates, rather than a matrix set up?"

Kanosis is paying 70% back to the "members". Imagine how "affiliates" would react if each sale they made would make 70% of the whole sale. Not just $1 something.

I would have thought that having a set up like that would have people clambering over each other to try and promote a site. And then you are rewarded DIRECTLY for your efforts.

And then of course you are relying on the product to be useful for continued membership. But Kanosis is saying that that is their intention anyway.

So I will try and break down my long post (sorry) into the two main points.

1. Why not try and focus on the "service", introduce video demonstrations, and have the "promotional" aspects as a side note - even a separate site.

2. Why a matrix set up? Why not just have affiliates?zoemc, welcome to MatrixWatch! Excellent questions and suggestion, which is really the core of our inquiry as well. I like to see kanosis executives answer these two questions. :)

[Ferret]

Options:
1) I would like to join Kanosis, but don't want to subscribe to COIL. Please click here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) I would like to subscribe to COIL, but I don't want to join Kanosis or earn commissions. I understand that the pricing will be higher. Request pricing information.
How much is the monthly price to use COIL and not be in the Global Distribution Channel?

Why does it cost more to use COIL if you are not in the Global Distribution Channel?

This is the 5th or 6th time this question has been asked over a two? week period
Why can't we get an answer to these valid questions?

[ycchen]

Ferret, thanks for keeping an eye on kanosis. ;) I sincerely hope Jim or other executives can answer some of their customer's (or prospect) questions seriously.

On the other hand, it is also time to get more update on any new progress of kanosis, right? :)

Anyone care to share the latest number?

[Ferret]

How much is the monthly price to use COIL and not be in the Global Distribution Channel?

Why does it cost more to use COIL if you are not in the Global Distribution Channel?

This is the 5th or 6th time this question has been asked over a two? week period
Why can't we get an answer to these valid questions?
Why is kanosis unable or unwilling to answer these simple questions?????
What are they hiding?
A week? ago Jim Southworth said to ask him this question again when he had no answer at the time
Why should we have to keep asking?
Is kanosis hoping we will forget
Jim knows the question, he reads this forum everyday

Skype would have had an answer on the spot 2 weeks ago
However, Skype is a legitimate company.........kanosis is....?

[antonroy]

Isn't it possible to get the answers from corporate Kanosis rather than on some random forum? I mean - that's what the support staff is there for at Kanosis. Go to Kanosis and request the price! Or are they not answering?

[Ferret]

Isn't it possible to get the answers from corporate Kanosis rather than on some random forum? I mean - that's what the support staff is there for at Kanosis. Go to Kanosis and request the price! Or are they not answering?
They don't answer.........big surprise, besides Jim said he would have an answer
Its a simple direct question that should have a ready answer
Aren't you a kanosis member?
Why don't you try and get an answer

PS: MatrixWatch is not a random forum, it has the best kanosis info and discussion going on the internet bar none (That includes kanosis.com)
Where is there better info?

[concerned]

Isn't it possible to get the answers from corporate Kanosis rather than on some random forum? I mean - that's what the support staff is there for at Kanosis. Go to Kanosis and request the price! Or are they not answering?

Jim works for the company Kanosis. If he can't answer the question, then the support staff has probably been instructed to not answer the question either.

[antonroy]

I have asked as well - no problem in getting the price or letting people know about it.

It's $102.5 + VAT if you don't want a position. I can only find very few reason for only buying a COIL subscription. There will probably be different member levels once it is launched - with different options and different price tags.

[Ferret]

I have asked as well - no problem in getting the price or letting people know about it.

It's $102.5 + VAT if you don't want a position. I can only find very few reason for only buying a COIL subscription. There will probably be different member levels once it is launched - with different options and different price tags.
please name the few reasons for only buying a COIL subscription for $102.50

[Arzel]

I have asked as well - no problem in getting the price or letting people know about it.

It's $102.5 + VAT if you don't want a position. I can only find very few reason for only buying a COIL subscription. There will probably be different member levels once it is launched - with different options and different price tags.

Is that a per month cost?

[antonroy]

Well, for example if you're not aloud to get involved with another business or income stream by the company you already work for. Some business areas doesn't allow their staff to work anywhere else. So if you felt the value of COIL to be what the price is ($102.5+VAT) - you can still purchase.

[Ferret]

Well, for example if you're not aloud to get involved with another business or income stream by the company you already work for. Some business areas doesn't allow their staff to work anywhere else. So if you felt the value of COIL to be what the price is ($102.5+VAT) - you can still purchase.
OK......maybe that is one reason
Few indicates more than one to me.........What are the other reasons?

I would hardly think using COIL would be looked at as a second job by very many businesses
This would be Very Rare

[amazingplace]

I think we have it wrong -- they are not charging more if you don't join the Matrix -- they are charging less if you DO join the matrix

Pricing the software at $100+ per month legitimizes and establishes the "value" of the software.

If you become part of the Kanosis Family, you get an <sarcasm>amazing</sarcasm> 80% discount on the software PLUS you get a chance to make some money from other people who are <sarcasm>smart enough</sarcasm> to join the Kanosis Family so they too can get the 80% discount on the $100 software.

:crazy:

[ycchen]

100+ per month for not joining the matrix?! :eek:

Why don't they just put 1000000 per month if they are serious about their non-matrix member? :shake:

Well, at least it looks more "legitimate" now there is an option. :rolleyes:

ADD: I hope they publish the statistics of matrix and non-marix members, so everyone knows if Kanosis violate the 70% rule or not. ;)

Note: A real & legitimate MLM should past the 70% rule. (http://www.falseprofits.com/Seventypercent.html)

[Webwatch]

Just a quick tip for all the Kanosians out there.

Those of you who got in early will shortly be asked for your 3 rd months Kanosis subscription $22 making your total outlay $81 so far.

Please keep a record of money paid out & money coming in (from commisions) so you can keep track of whats happening, call them Income and Expense ledgers if you like.

Over the coming months you will be able to make projected income forcasts and other fancy business predictions from the information gathered.

There is no trickery here, whether you agree with me or not about the Pyramid/Matrix/Family Tree aspect of Kanosis this basic book keeping will help you in the long run.

If you are just in Kanosis for the Software and community aspect this isn't that essential but those budding entropreneurs out there should start keeping a record.

In fact its also worth keeping hard copies of any Kanosis literature you have in a file or folder somewhere.

Just a few simple tips.

[kanosian planet]

Hi!

I am new here and found the forum searching for information on Kanosis. Read some of the threads here and must say that I am not very impressed with most of what I am reading.

I am not going into any discussions with any one here. No point in that. You are discussing all kinds of details here, some less significant than others. Every company does mistakes, as I am sure Kanosis will do as well. But how qualified are most of you to give any kind of analyzes on the COIL product, the market for this product and the way it is distributed? I find some of the statements and “smart” questions on regards to Kanosis to be quite ridicules. By now I guess that I have your attention. If you feel offended by what I am writing here you should try to remember that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. And if you think that I am referring to any of your statements on Kanosis to be pointless, you might just be right!

It is obvious that most of you come from a complete opposite standpoint than I, and I am not here to change anyone’s mind. Not my concern and not my place to do that. Fact is that MLM as most business areas has more than it fair share of rotten apples, that does however not mean that the different MLM business models are not working. And anyone making such a claim does not know too much about the corporate market and how business is conducted in general.

You can have all the discussions you like here and the world will still tic, people will join Kanosis and other companies, people will make money, people will lose money regardless on how you feel on the subject. So what is your mission, why are you here and what are you trying to archive? Have you ever asked yourself these questions and taken the time to be honest with yourself in your response? Most people would be amazed to realize that people might deceive us and be dishonest, but seldom more then we manage to deceive ourselves.

As I said, I am not going into discussions with anyone here. I have spent allot of time finding out more about Kanosis and their business concept. I have many years experience in both sales, marketing and MLM and I have been waiting for similar technology for more then 7 years now. I am very happy about what I have learned so far and I look forward to work with Kanosis and build my family tree. I am sure there will be some disappointments along the way, but hey; nobody is perfect.

To anyone who wants to know more about Kanosis I found a link on the Internet to a live conference call I attended last nigh. It was very interesting and I am sure you can find a 100 new reasons to discuss and post negative remarks if that is what you are listing for (you normally find what you are looking for in life – enjoy!): ftp://latenight.dynu.com/Kanosis%204-25.mp3

If you are here for an argument I suggest you find something else to do (you will not get it with me), life can be fun, try to smile more:)


Have a great day!

Sincerely,
Audun Turoey
Kanosis id: **** Referal id removed. No Family Tree Growth Here.

[amazingplace]

Hi Planet

I am a kanosian too. I joined this forum to be able to hear all sides and for the most part people here have been openminded and if you look further, you will see that Kanosis actually takes input from this venue seriously enough to make changes from time to time.

What I have found here is that there are a couple of extremists who are not open to any discussion regarding anything opposing their point of view. You'll fit right in with that group despite the fact that your view is opposite theirs. You are no different than the closed-minded anti-mlm zealots here based on your post.

Good luck with your business.

:)

[Arzel]

Hi!

You can have all the discussions you like here and the world will still tic, people will join Kanosis and other companies, people will make money, people will lose money regardless on how you feel on the subject. So what is your mission, why are you here and what are you trying to archive? Have you ever asked yourself these questions and taken the time to be honest with yourself in your response? Most people would be amazed to realize that people might deceive us and be dishonest, but seldom more then we manage to deceive ourselves.


Our mission is quite simple. Identify scams (usually related to a matrix model) and expose them for what they are.

Kanosis came into our view because it uses a matrix model of commissions, and an individual asked us our thought about Kanosis. They actually don't use a traditional matrix model, but the discussion has continued nontheless.

As such I don't think we have officially declared Kanosis a scam, however many members have been promoting this as an income building business, and this is the primary point of contention (since most people will not make any money).

Kanosis to it's part has made significant changes to its presentation, not as much as I would like, but more than most companies. And Jim has been mostly willing to discuss aspects about Kanosis and COIL.

So while we disagree on a few aspects I think most people would see this discussion as a positive course of action. The only people that really seem upset are those that were hoping to use Kanosis as a huge money making opportunity, and those that feel there is a value to Kanosis and COIL can at least gain an understanding of their probability of earning income in such an MLM.

[kanosian planet]

I got to hand it to you both (Amazingplace and Arzel); I went out a bit too hard. I just read a few threads and maybe they were not representative. I am very glad to hear though that I was wrong, and it is good to know that Kanosis is also listening to non-members of Kanosis.

Although as I said; I am not going into any discussions. I have my opinion on things (they might seem rough at times), but I also do respect other people’s opinions. I am just questioning the inner motivation of some people that go into serious arguments and have strong opinions on something they are not involved in. I believe that instead of having all kinds of meanings on this and that, we should focus on what we really want to achieve (and do something abut that). But then again people are welcome to what they very well please to do.

Not my intention to be very rude, but I do not mind to be a little rude. Excuse my bluntness…

:)

Best regards, Audun

[concerned]

I may be one of the people you are talking about when you say we won't change our minds. In fact I WILL change my mind when there is information to convince me. I haven't seen any yet.

Hi!

I am new here and found the forum searching for information on Kanosis. Read some of the threads here and must say that I am not very impressed with most of what I am reading.

Hi, and welcome. I am a little confused here. There are 2 sides speaking on these Kanosis threads. There are those that believe it is better than sliced bread, and those that think it is lower than scum. Are you not impressed with one side, or both sides?

I am not going into any discussions with any one here. No point in that. You are discussing all kinds of details here, some less significant than others. Every company does mistakes, as I am sure Kanosis will do as well.

That's fine. You can chose to converse whenever you want. That is the beauty of this place. Say what you want, when you want.

But how qualified are most of you to give any kind of analyzes on the COIL product, the market for this product and the way it is distributed?

GOOD QUESTION!!! Actually, I don't think there is anybody on the planet that is qualified to analyze the COIL product simply because it isn't finished yet. There is NO DOCUMENTATION on the web, and I don't think even the Kanosis executives know exactly how it works, since they can't even put 2 sentences on their website stating how it works. Basically, if you want to be an expert, you have to pay into a shady scheme to use their BETA version. Since it isn't a complete product, nobody can be an expert.

I find some of the statements and “smart” questions on regards to Kanosis to be quite ridicules.

That's fine, because many people find the business practices, and the lack of response to simple questions ridiculous also.

It is obvious that most of you come from a complete opposite standpoint than I, and I am not here to change anyone’s mind. Not my concern and not my place to do that. Fact is that MLM as most business areas has more than it fair share of rotten apples, that does however not mean that the different MLM business models are not working. And anyone making such a claim does not know too much about the corporate market and how business is conducted in general.

Good point. There are alot of rotten apples, and when certain questions about the company, and the products they sell cannot be answered, then you tend to think Kanosis is one of the majority of rotten apples. I believe Avon is a MLM that works well. WHY??? Because they can explain their products, and their products sell themselves. People buy them to use them, not to make money. But with Kanosis, they cannot explain their product, and therefor it cannot sell itself. People ONLY buy it to make money. That's what makes everyone think it is one of the bad apples.

[Arzel]

I got to hand it to you both (Amazingplace and Arzel); I went out a bit too hard. I just read a few threads and maybe they were not representative. I am very glad to hear though that I was wrong, and it is good to know that Kanosis is also listening to non-members of Kanosis.

Although as I said; I am not going into any discussions. I have my opinion on things (they might seem rough at times), but I also do respect other people’s opinions. I am just questioning the inner motivation of some people that go into serious arguments and have strong opinions on something they are not involved in. I believe that instead of having all kinds of meanings on this and that, we should focus on what we really want to achieve (and do something abut that). But then again people are welcome to what they very well please to do.

Not my intention to be very rude, but I do not mind to be a little rude. Excuse my bluntness…

:)

Best regards, Audun

So are you saying that because we are not a part of Kanosis and have no intention of being members that we should not comment on Kanosis and keep our comments to ourselves?

[kanosian planet]

No, I am in fact saying that everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, but I am missing the point as to why people get into these long discussions. What is the intent behind it? There is nothing wrong with people having opinions, they always will. But what is it that you want to achieve, and is this the best way to achieve what you want?
Now, I say this in a general perspective so do not take it as if I am talking to you in person.

I will not go into any discussions here simply because I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion. I am not into convincing people.
If all this negative talk about Kanosis is made with the intent to help people not to lose their money to what is believed to be a scam; I applaud you and your effort! If it is anything else, what is the point?
I respect the intent of Matrix Watch as both a good and needed initiative, but some of it's members seem to go a bit overboard in my view.

You might question the integrity of Kanosis; I question the integrity of what is going on here…. If you question Kanosis, can’t I then question you and your mission?

If you believe Kanosis to be a scam, please do; I will not try to change anyone’s opinion on that. I base my actions on my knowledge and research; if I am wrong too bad for me, but I am sure that will not gain you in any way, will it…

If you feel the need to quote me on anything here and state your opinion, feel free to do so. But do not expect me to come and defend my stand. I hope I have gotten my opinion across and I do not know if I have too much more to add, regardless on how you interpret what I have written here.

Have a great week and I hope everyone here reach their own personal goals. Best of luck and success to you all! :)


Best regards,
Audun

[Webwatch]

Hello Kanosian Planet and thank you for posting your opinon.

This post is a bit long so please make yourselves a nice drink before you continue.

Kanosian Planet as you do not wish to discuss your opinion please dont feel like this post is addressing you or attempting to involve you in a discussion which you wish not to participate in.

For the benefit of those that would like to discuss the Kanosis situation in future post's I would just like to post my opinion to some of the issues raised in Kanosian Planets posts. My opinions are open to discussion so if anyone wishes to discuss them please do.

Kanosis Scam ??.
It's often to easy to bandy the word scam around without seeing the consequence this may have to the company or any honest hard working individuals involved in it, for this reason I wish to clarify the fact that although the initial marketing stratergy of Kanosis was more dubious in the early stages and bore some very strong similarities to a Pyramid Scheme which all MLM's sometimes do one defining feature is the Software application, 'Coil' and the Kanosis community which may yet have some usefull purpose in everyday life.
In defining the difference between a Pyramid Scheme and a legal MLM, one singular dividing line usually arises which is the product and the value of it.
Remember the product or service is for using not just for selling and there must also be an end user who can participate in the service or by the product without the neccesity or enticement to recruit others.

Kanosis has took on board many things suggested here, maybe via our advice and discussions or through their own legal council, to some varying degree's of success.

i.e. When advertising that Buying Coil without joining the Matrix/Family Tree is more expensive it could be argued this may be bad as selling the marketing principle rather than the product/service as this is more enticement to join the Matrix/Family Tree.

Also asking members to drop the word Matrix due to its negative conertations and use other descriptive phrases to describe the Kanosis opportunity also seems like a bit of a cover up.

The fact that Kanosis has made any changes at all shows that they are open to suggestions and willing to implement change.

In the past they have also tightened the reigns on the habitual ponzi players who where over hyping the money making opportunity in the early days, and now wanting to vet and approve all websites is another good sign.
However there will always be a few that slip through the net and are still trying to prey on unwary victims by trying to sell a Kanosis promo video when from what i believe the Video will be freely available after launch or are still using phrases like:
"Join The World's Fastest Growing Community and EARN BIG! "

The phrase should be:
"Join the Kanosis Community and help make a few lucky individuals very wealthy, you may also enjoy a few dollars yourself if your really lucky"

Intent:
I here this a lot usually in the guise of generic phrases like:
"Who do You Think You Are"
"What are your credentials"
"Why dont you believe that this will be the next big thing"
"You can't admit your wrong"
"Your a negative expert with nothing better to do"
"Why cant you put the toilet seat down" (Sorry thats unrelated to this)
Plus many more.

As there are many Ponzi/Pyramid/Matrix/Family Tree Promoting websites out there I am here to try and add some sort of counter opinion (through experience) as to why many of these schemes promise more than they will ever deliver, this may make me come across as a nay sayer, negative expert etc, but my main intention is to offer anyone the chance to make a more informed choice- I may not be 100% correct all the time but I never type anything out of malice or any weak attempt to discredit, only my opinions and knowledge at that current moment.

There are many cult Forums out there that promote these schemes, in fact one in particular springs to mind where it could be argued that almost every scheme in its MLM/referal section could be classed as a scam to some degree, but such a sweeping generalisation would be unwise eventhough I may be proved right more than I am proved wrong, maybe its this forum I should start a thread to discuss.

Matrixwatch has a near unique position as it allows for a more informed choice because we discuss and debate many different schemes within an uncensored environment (apart from referal links and id's & the usual moral guidelines of everday life) where both sides can discuss and debate the issue's. It's also worth noting that many viewers of the Kanosis discussions have joned Kanosis anyway regardless of what we have said but they will have more of a balanced view as to what they are signing up for.

MY Purpose:
I am not here to show or guide anybody down their path in life or even walk it with them all I can do is try and shine a bit of light into the darkest corners sometimes the torch works sometimes the batteries are flat.

We all have the abilty to use our free will to make a choice about our future but seeing how a lot of Matrix schemes distort the truth in order to entice you to join up, coupled with the power of the written word diminishes this free will to some degree.

At the beginning of this post I recomended making a drink before continuing, If you have just finished your drink can you honestly say you made one because that's what you wanted or because i asked you to. Or did you resist temptation because i said it.

Apologies for the long post Just my opinons nothing more, please discuss or dismiss as you see fit.

[Ferret]

No, I am in fact saying that everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, but I am missing the point as to why people get into these long discussions. What is the intent behind it? There is nothing wrong with people having opinions, they always will. But what is it that you want to achieve, and is this the best way to achieve what you want?
Now, I say this in a general perspective so do not take it as if I am talking to you in person.

I will not go into any discussions here simply because I believe everybody is entitled to their opinion. I am not into convincing people.
If all this negative talk about Kanosis is made with the intent to help people not to lose their money to what is believed to be a scam; I applaud you and your effort! If it is anything else, what is the point?
I respect the intent of Matrix Watch as both a good and needed initiative, but some of it's members seem to go a bit overboard in my view.

You might question the integrity of Kanosis; I question the integrity of what is going on here…. If you question Kanosis, can’t I then question you and your mission?

If you believe Kanosis to be a scam, please do; I will not try to change anyone’s opinion on that. I base my actions on my knowledge and research; if I am wrong too bad for me, but I am sure that will not gain you in any way, will it…

If you feel the need to quote me on anything here and state your opinion, feel free to do so. But do not expect me to come and defend my stand. I hope I have gotten my opinion across and I do not know if I have too much more to add, regardless on how you interpret what I have written here.

Have a great week and I hope everyone here reach their own personal goals. Best of luck and success to you all! :)


Best regards,
Audun
This is your website that you have as a google sponsored link
http://www.kanosis-coil-kanosis.com/

Your reasons for posting here are transparently obvious
We are critizing and pointing out the flaws of your "Cash Cow" and you don't like it

there are many mistatements, hyperbole and maybe straight out lies in it

Welcome to the world's fastest
growing online community!
Do you have proof of this? This would be a lie
myspace and many others have kanosis beat

Once you have joined the Kanosis community, you can start making money IMMEDIATELY! That long awaited vacation in a tropical paradise is a lot closer than you think! Kanosis gives you the power to conduct your business from anywhere in the world. Go yachting, fishing, travel the world - as long as you have an internet connection, you will be able to login and watch your money grow!
hype

Kanosis is a turn-key system that helps you
organize your life while generating real wealth!
More hype

Your Kanosis email account is free, secure and spam-filtered
AND YOU MAKE MONEY THROUGH OTHER KANOSIS PARTICIPANTS!
how is paying $22 a month free? and more hype

You will also receive your own 4 page website which you will be able to easily and quickly customize. ALL THIS FOR ONLY $22 A MONTH! It would almost cost you more just to host your website every month.
More lies, a 4 page website as a sub domain is free or even with a real domain (PM me and I will get you a free website with no adds or catchs)

Show Me The Money!!
More hype

They will join under your username (nobody can join Kanosis without being referred).
This is probably illegal?????

By participating in Kanosis, you are able to earn more than just a small passive income - that beautiful new vehicle you've had your eye on is suddenly within your grasp.
more hype

I have negotiated a deal with Kanosis Community whereby if you join Kanosis using my referrer ID , you will receive a 20% discount on the streaming promotional video as seen on this page, to use on your website. This will assist you in marketing the COIL software and inviting others to join Kanosis. Once you have joined the Kanosis community, merely send me an email to from your kanosis email account, and I will tell you how to receive your discounted Promotional Video Package
Huh? kanosis is charging $$$$ to let you use this crappy video seen on this page????
How much is it?
They must be desperate for capital
This is not looking good......
what is the hype with the 20% discount nonsense and acting like it is a special deal that only you have?
who do you think will fall for this?

As you can see letting 5000+ self interested matrix promoting sales people loose on the internet is going to be a nightmare for all of us

I can't wait for May 1st..........

[Venti]

I recently got introduced to Kanosis by a friend who asked me to proofread some English text. First I thought it was for some school project, but when I asked about whether he got some money from people the link, which had his nick as a referrer in it, he told me that he was actually paying 22$/month for the software and the text was for a post to some forum (MMG probably, I told him he would get banned from most forums for posting such crap) and he was hoping to earn some money with it.

So after asking him about it for a while it became clear that, although he sounded really positive about the software, it didn't actually do anything worth paying a single penny for, and you would have to pay more to get any functionality. He also claimed that the service was hosted in some _really_ secure place where banks host their servers. Yeah right, as if any bank still in business would host their customer data even on the same building with scam sites such as this one.

He didn't really expect to get rich fast or anything, but he's not really good with numbers so he believed all the marketing bull**** and thought it just might work. And if it wouldn't work, then he would just be some 66$ poorer, not a big deal. Apparently, although he didn't think he could actually recruit anyone to buy this 22$/month java-applet email client, he thought that the "spillover" (which I think is not actually detailed anywhere, just that you _might_ get some money from people you haven't actually recruited) would get him some money.

So to summarise, he didn't think anyone would actually pay 22$/month for this software, apart from people like him who thought they could make some buck by paying _them_ for the right to promote their crappy software. But failed to see that this limits the potential customer base to only few thousand idiots, most of which will probably leave in 1 or 2 months after realizing that they are still paying 22$/month and getting maybe 1$ back.

Luckily I got him to promise to leave after the first month instead of waiting around for three months like he initially planned. I always wondered who are these idiots that buy into these scams. I thought they were the same people who buy from spam emails. But it turns out they are just clueless newbies that try these things for the heck of it, "just this one time, if it doesn't work out I only lost x bucks".


That was my little story. Now I'd like to actually take part in this thread, having read most of it, going trough Kanosis's marketing bull**** and listening to the conference calls someone posted, in my effort to convince my friend that Kanosis is a scam and paying them has zero chance of actually earning him any money.

First of all, as others have pointed out, this is a pyramid scheme, there is no doubt about it.
1)They have a marginal product, which most people wouldn't be interested in, even if it was free.
2)They tell nothing about their product, all the focus is in the “earn money by promoting this product, just buy it your self first” thing. I had to ask my friend to find out, and it didn't seem like he actually knew either, although he was using it himself. “it's not really finished yet” and so on.
3)They price their 'product' so high, in their effort to give 77% back to the early adopters (or whatever) that it will scare off any potential buyers actually interested in the product, not the pyramid scheme.

I admit I skipped a few pages but I don't think these points have been pressed enough yet. It's pointless to debate whether this is a pyramid scheme or not, when it's so blatantly obvious that it is. There are no numbers, magical theories or feel good stories that JimmSouthword and others could tell to make it appear not to be. The only reason anyone would ever sign up for this is that they think they can earn some money by doing so. And the only people who actually do net a single cent are those who are insanely lucky and those who put so much effort into this scam to make their hourly wage drop into the third decimal places. Oh and those who got in early (and it probably hasn't been early for weeks or months), making this a PYRAMID SCAM!!!

I can't believe that I wrote all that just for some petty fraud. =(

[JimSouthworth]

I recently I got introduced to Kanosis by a friend who asked me to proofread some English text. First I thought it was for some school project, but when I asked about whether he got some money from people the link, which had his nick as a referrer in it, he told me that he was actually paying 22$/month for the software and the text was for a post to some forum (MMG probably, I told him he would get banned from most forums for posting such crap) and he was hoping to earn some money with it.Mr Venti,Sir,
Might I recommend a quick phone call to me at 703-222-0214 at any time, I will be glad to answer your phone call as I have MANY MANY others on this site with facts and specifics that absolutely address your questions and concerns. My only reason for doing this as private discussion as one on one communications is that at least a couple of “regulars” on this site have a greatly distorted perspective and sense of fairness and facts that they are too chicken to discuss verbally with me even though I have offered many times to respect their shielded identities as I have several other moderators on this site.

Your assumptions are logical given the information that you have been privy to. However, at midnight (GMT) Monday May 1st, a whole new website and substantial content will be made available as part of the Kanosis product rollout at company launch. (OBTW my name is Jim Southworth). Out of respect for the mission of this site and my personal involvement in similar public service activities for the last 35 years professionally, I have decided to not again further attack the credibility of the dedicated individuals whom man this site. (Although at least one is really tempting to continue to shoot back at, especially when he is an employee of an insurance company in Manhattan, NY City). Pardon my discontinuity of thought process in that all of our technical team has been working around the clock to bring up the first major update of our software and services platform for the launch by Monday GMT.

The server cluster that we have installed in Ashburn, Virginia(near AOL HQ) is around 220 Milliseconds via OC192 speeds to anywhere in the civilized world and is backed up by the previous pre-launch development cluster in London, UK at “Telehouse”. Just wait until you see the performance of our new ultra fast nodes with secure tera-byte storage in Hong Kong and Sydney as we expand over the next 90 days to supply an enhanced load balanced secure platform world-wide.

An interesting development is that at least two other well financed companies have started deployment using the business model that Kanosis has to bring their unique Internet services products to market via a legal multi-level-marketing forced matrix. The time has come to clean up this powerful approach to jump-start new products and services that otherwise would be limited to classical “Hockey-stick” growth curves that can’t capture the infrastructure cost benefits of a MLM.

[amazingplace]

Yeah right, as if any bank still in business would host their customer data even on the same building with scam sites such as this one.

Not only do banks host at Telehouse, so do most of the Stock Exchanges and companies that deliver Market Data Feeds to the financial world. This is because of the fact that ALL of the Tier 1 Backbone Carriers peer at TeleHouse therefore giving any company that hosts there direct access to the fastest access point to the Internet.

The server cluster that we have installed in Ashburn, Virginia(near AOL HQ) is around 220 Milliseconds via OC192 speeds to anywhere in the civilized world and is backed up by the previous pre-launch development cluster in London, UK at “Telehouse”.


My full time job involves helping companies set up their infrastructure and many times doing this involves helping them set up space in a colocation center. I can tell you that Telehouse is included in the top tier of data center companies in the world. They are the host of one of Europe's major Internet Exchange Points (where the tier 1 Internet companies join their networks together). For anyone here who has some knowledge about how the Internet is put together, this would be similar to Telx - 60 Hudson St, NYC or Equinix in Virginia.

You all know that I pressed Jim pretty hard about security and infrastructure and my focus has been on the product and not the matrix. The current matrix structure seems flawed and maybe it will change. If COIL evolves into something widely accessible and user friendly, then Kanosis will become a well known company.

[Ferret]

(OBTW my name is Jim Southworth). Out of respect for the mission of this site and my personal involvement in similar public service activities for the last 35 years professionally, I have decided to not again further attack the credibility of the dedicated individuals whom man this site. (Although at least one is really tempting to continue to shoot back at, especially when he is an employee of an insurance company in Manhattan, NY City). Pardon my discontinuity of thought process ..
Why are you making a point of this?
You are providing proof why no one would want to talk to you
What relevance does this have to the discussion?
This is why no one should have their personal info with a rinky dink company like kanosis where you have access to it
A company that is afraid to list the bios of its founders on its website even
though you said they would be there months ago
A company that can't answer simple questions
A company with dishonest marketing schemes that has to be forced to "somewhat" clean its act up
We all know that kanosis wouldn't have made any changes to its basically illegal matrix scheme that it started with if MW hadn't put a spot light on it

Shouldn't kanosis have started out from day one with a legal matrix seeing all the topline legal help and experience of Steve Whittington?

A company that responds to valid criticism by using "new speak" and bans the word "MATRIX" and replaces it with "Global Distribution Channel"
A company that is so imcompetent that after they do that they are still using the word Matrix in their own outdated and very bad FAQ
How difficult is it to change a FAQ????

A company that is trying to hide? by removing their street address from their website or even worse is lying and they don't even have a CA office
A company that doesn't have a phone #

A company that tries to raise money by illegal emailed means then makes the lamest excuses when caught in the act
Where was your crack legal team the herbalife guy was boasting about?

JimS, as a major figure in a kanosis you are very unprofessional and a petty man to boot
I have heard you boasting on a conference call how you tracked someone
down and embarassed or threatened them into stopping their criticism of kanosis on their website


An interesting development is that at least two other well financed companies have started deployment using the business model that Kanosis has to bring their unique Internet services products to market via a legal multi-level-marketing forced matrix. The time has come to clean up this powerful approach to jump-start new products and services that otherwise would be limited to classical “Hockey-stick” growth curves that can’t capture the infrastructure cost benefits of a MLM.
What are those two companies?

[Ferret]

http://www.globalworkstation.com/rjmpc#Predictions

Explosive Growth Predicted Experts predict that at least 10 Million people will join Kanosis within the first 10 months after the May 1, 2006 launch. To make sure that YOU get a share of the commission payments, JOIN US TODAY! Our team is pulling for you to succeed.

[nepatriots]

JimS, as a major figure in a kanosis you are very unprofessional and a petty man to boot


Once again Ferret shows the world the true idiot he is. I don't see how JimSouthworth can be called unprofessional and petty... he has done quite a service to this message board and Kanosis. If you don't agree with what he has to say then try to have a civilized discussion about it, which may be impossible for you, don't go disrespecting him.

[Webwatch]

May 1st Kanosis Launches:

As we have now arrived at the Kanosis launch day it seems prudent that I take this opportunity to thank all the contributors to this thread for their involvement and input.

There has been a lot of heated discussion here and no doubt this will continue as we watch with interest the Kanosis Marketing Hybrid evolve, although I still have my concerns and reservations that should not detract from the fact that some changes have been implemented from the very early days of these threads.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Jim Southworth for his contributions and I hope they will continue. We may not have been in agreement on many issues but Jim's courage to stand up for what he believes in should be congratulated (by me anyway) especially in this sometimes harsh environment.

I still believe that any company that recruits individuals with overhyped subliminal promises of potential earnings is heading for disaster but as I mentioned in earlier posts Kanosis has actively sought to control this potential problem and to reign in those that are more interested in promoting the 'Opportunity' than the actual product/service and its benefits.

Hopefully this thread has not only helped Kanosis make some small changes but also those thinking of joining may now have a more informed view of what they are actually getting in to.

I will continue watching with interest how this develops and will post my thoughts as well as my typing and language skills allow.

Thanks again to everyone and stay with us as things develop.

[concerned]

Out of respect for the mission of this site and my personal involvement in similar public service activities for the last 35 years professionally, I have decided to not again further attack the credibility of the dedicated individuals whom man this site. (Although at least one is really tempting to continue to shoot back at, especially when he is an employee of an insurance company in Manhattan, NY City).

I am very disapointed. I didn't know there was someone else on this forum that is upsetting you so much that you would want to shoot back at them. I thought I would have been your number 1 person whom you hate on this forum.

[Ferret]

OK
kanosis released their non beta COIL software on the 1st and updated their website........................................... by removing the FAQ

Does anyone have a review of how COIL is working?

How many sign ups are there now?
There seems to be more competition to get them now
http://www.google.com/sponsoredlinks?q=Kanosis+&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wa

Where is the buzz about this major event?

I would have thought all the kanosians would be posting here how great all this is.........

[Webwatch]

Many will be playing with their new avatars.
Not to be outdone we too can have a go with a free demo: http://www.oddcast.com/sitepal/

There maybe a few trying to get their websites going but better hurry up google is filling up rapidly.
The usual bulk e-mail's should be coming soon also.

A few wiser one's may go down the offline route realising online will quickly become to oversaturated, Bumper Stickers, Flyers etc coming soon.

Also Coming to a church near you soon: "This weeks sermon is sponsored by Kanosis" Sign up id :givusurcash

Its all still early days but lets have some independant reviews if possible.

[Ferret]

http://www.smartbox.co.uk/kanosis/compensation.htm

Join Kanosis prior to launch providing you with an opportunity to earn a substantial income when the business goes global on May 1st.....

Annual registration fee $15 until May 1 when it becomes $25.....

COIL is the first product from Kanosis. As a registered member you are able to subscribe to COIL for $22 per month. In addition you can now invite others to join and use the product.

You receive your own personal web page, a Uniclear bank account with a free debit card attached and an online system for managing your business. The debit card is delivered to your address shortly after sign up. Once you are registered you are eligible to invite others to participate in Kanosis.....

When you've personally sponsored 2 people who subscribe to COIL, you're qualified to receive a monthly referral fee. You are now on your way to building your own 2 by 14 level matrix. Kanosis pays $1.10 per month for each person in your matrix as long as you have two personally sponsored. That's easy!

How Much Can I Make?

Level
Positions
Matrix
Earnings $

1
2
2
2.20

2
4
6
6.60



14
16384
32766
36042.60


That's right. You need 32,766 people in your matrix to earn $36,042.60.

That might seem like a lot but remember that we expect about 10 million to join in the first year. Get in now while there are less than 5,500 and you can't fail.

Just imagine how much money the early entrants would have made if Google or Skype were marketed this way. Google speaks for itself but Skype has over 5 million users online at any one time. It makes that 32,766 look pretty small doesn't it?



When joining Kanosis please make sure you have your sponsor's user name because you can't join without it.....

Your sponsor's user name is: smartbox

[Ferret]

http://www.ip97.com/kanosis_will_change_the_dcje.aspx

Kanosis Will Change the Intenet
4 April 2006

Kanosis will allow people to become financially independent. Coil product is set to bring in over ten million users by May of 2006.



COIL is an Internet-based tool to optimize your computing environment and experience. In brief it works with and on top of Windows/Mac and provides functions and solutions these do not. It is projected to be as wide spread as Real Player, Napster and Skype (each with distribution of 100 million users). It does hundreds of things including (VOIP), computer to computer internet calling, virtual file storage, online banking all in an encrypted, virus-proof environment on one screen.



COIL is distributed through Kanosis which is a direct marketing organization. Along with all the great features mentioned above, once you begin using COIL you have the opportunity to refer friends and earn a monthly commission.



Kanosis is still in the pre-launch stage. I believe that Kanosis will be the biggest thing to ever hit the internet. We are very excited to see what will be happening in the near future with this company! I would like everyone to keep up with this blog to see what will be going on with the company.



Kanosis is a very good 'intranet" service you can have the ability to back up all of your files on the internet. This is a very safe service. Kanosis uses the same technology as banks. Kanosis will completely encrypt your information, allowing you to have excellent security online. This is a great way to free up space on your computer. You can also access all of your uploaded files from any where in the world that has an internet connection. Please visit www.kanosisprogram.com . We would like you to look at the video presentation.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosisavalanche.com/philip/

ON MAY 1, 2006 KANOSIS LAUNCHES WORLDWIDE giving YOU the ability for to create a HUGE PASSIVE INCOME by sharing the software with as little as 2 people!

(Do the math – Kanosis is not allowed to make full matrix income projections but if you were to double a penny every day for 30 days (geometric progression), you would have over FIVE MILLION DOLLARS at the end of 30 days… Hmmmm!)

KANOSIS – the Smart Choice!


STEP 3


“TIMING”

SIGN UP NOW!

“When I first looked at this program about 90 days ago, I weighed out the “risk to reward "and not only am I glad that I did join without knowing ALL the details, it was easily explained and I was able to get in FIRST, then FIGURE IT OUT LATER!, I only introduced 3 people and my group has grown to over 1,200 people or approx $1,400 . LIAR PANTS ON FIRE

But timing is so important! If you get in while it is new ,then, you reap the profits of all of those who fall under you. Now is the time to join if you want to earn from the labor of others."



Thanks,

B Wakefield


Username of person/company that introduced you to Kanosis:
philb

Remember all you need to do is introduce a minimum of 2 new people or entities. Each of them signs up 2, and then those enrollees sign up 2, and so on, until you fill up your personal matrix 14 levels deep.

If that were to happen, you would have 32,766 people or entities in your matrix multiplied by $1.10 PER MONTH.

[Webwatch]

Coming to an inbox near you soon.

www.avalancheprogram.com

This is the reincarnation of www.kanosisavalanche.com which has now been moved to www.kanosisavalanche2.com (well untill they read this post anyway).

DISCLAIMER/LIMITED GUARANTEE

Ø Once you sign up above, an automated chain reaction will start and the development of your turnkey automated email campaign will begin.

Ø Once the buttons are pushed and your payment is processed, the campaign literally comes alive with customized web development, auto-responders put in place and the emailing cost is paid upfront to our email provider so that the emails going out are slotted immediately and move up the chain until they DROP! (Please understand that our bulk email company sends out over 100 million emails per day and there is a wait time associated with the “slotting process” of up to 7 days. (first come first serve is the only fair way)

Ø The bottom line is: No Refunds

However, we will guarantee that a certain number of leads will be captured in your personal auto-responder system that is linked to your username. Based on the first 15 campaigns that we have done already, the number of leads to be expected are;

Ø SILVER = 100 “real time” leads that we will guarantee (current average is 150)

Ø GOLD = 250 “real time” leads that we will guarantee (current average is 350)

Ø PLATINUM = 500 “real time” leads that we will guarantee (current average is 700)

Please note: If the guaranteed amount above is not initially met, we will send out more at no cost to you until the guaranteed amount is met.

… For example if you were to choose the GOLD package, $425 mailing cost (plus web stuff), you should expect a minimum of 250 leads that will be automatically communicated to on your behalf via email auto-responders. All 250 of them will have the new KANOSIS INTERACTIVE MOVIE sent to them on the day that it is released!

Onward, Upward!

Kanosis Avalanche, A division of Efficient Solutions LLC

The costs.
Silver=$330, Gold=$530, Platinum+$930
-----------------------------------

Now don't get me wrong I dont disagree that Kanosians need a bit of help with their marketing but I thought all this would be taken care of and part of the Kanosis package (maybe I missenterpreted this).

All seems a bit expensive to me.

Which genious thought up 'Avalanche' which as most of us know represents the slippery slope to disaster more than an "Onward, Upward" climb to success.

But its all about the product isn't it, not the downline building ????

Please tell me this isn't another one of Trip Wakefields ideas.:)

[ycchen]

Jim, have you started to build your matrix? I guess you might have already filled up your 2x14 matrix and on your way to "financial independent". Good for you. ;)

As we have said from day 1, pyramid-matrix marketing attract only pyramid-ponzi players and misled newbies). As always, 90% of kanosian are those who are in for the money, may be 1% will be serious about the product. This is a well planned and well designed pyramid-matrix scheme from day 1. Bravo to all the known and unknown kanosis executives.

When 90% of the pyramid-ponzi players (and misled newbies) find themselves stuck in the dead matrix, they will start to complaint and some will refuse to pay the monthly subscription.

Then what? :rolleyes:

I am sure the unverified ex-president and ex-CEO of herbalife have a well thought out exit plan to deal with the decline of kanosis sign-up rate before it reaches 0.01 million. :shake:

Kanosis is not google or skype. It is a pyramid-matrix scheme that design not to last. Period.

[mpatient24]

I've been extremely busy at work, and planning my wedding so I haven't had time to read, post, or update. Due to a few PM's I recently got, I'm posting the latest.

Personal Invites: 0
My Total Downline: 0 active (0 total)
Today's Sign-Ups: 62
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 7466

COIL and the new COIL Strata looks pretty different. I like it. I haven't done much with it, but I do like the improvements quite a bit. They have several tutorials and such up now. Anyhow... since I haven't read anybody's postings, I don't have much to say. I will try to check back more often to contribute to this ongoing conversation/debate.

[ycchen]

mpatient24, thanks for the update! :)

Congratulation and good luck to your wedding!:applause:

[Webwatch]

Hello Mpatient,

Nice to see you again-thanks for the sign ups update and i hope the wedding arrangements aren't proving to stressfull (mine where). I probably wont get an invite but have a lovely day. :) :)

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosisdiva.com/

Are you ready for the next big thing?
When was the last time you had the time to smell the roses?

Are you living pay check to pay check?

What were you doing when google, myspace sold for zillions of dollars?

The read on.................

Are you ready for the next big thing?
www.Kanosis.com

Thank you for you taking the time to visit our website. I appreciate you taking the time to inquire about changing your life future with:



the next big thing.......................Are you ready? People all over the world are joining Kanosis to interact and share business and personal relationships anywhere anytime.
Think Myspace wired......Join our community-get better software-get paid.

We are looking for………………………………….



We are looking for “WEB-PRENEURS” Serious/ very serious -- week-end entrepreneurs, cool and serious college students, and stay at home moms with a need to earn some serious money. We have an innovative “viral/pandemic marketing” project live May 1st 2006. We plan to achieve wildfire success up to 10million new subscribers within a (conservative) 14 month period. Tired of living pay check to pay check? Feel left out in all of the past “Big Things” well you now have the opportunity to create a dynamic future for you and your family on the ground level.

in the immediate downline of one of the founding members Rocco Beatrice and we can help you get involved in

the pre-launch of this amazing wealth building opportunity. Picture this.--Being able to be any where in the world and have your personal and business information available at the click of a mouse? Kanosis is the revolution of this decade and is the next big thing.


Ideal Business:



We became involved with the management team of Steven VanZutphen, Steve Wittington, Alistair Kilde, John Edwards, Michael Diamond, Jim Southworth, and many/many others, because I saw the “perfect” business model. If you were going to start a business, this is what you would look for.


ADVERTISEMENT::


WEB “PRENEURS” May 1st 2006 start date. AOL style “Internet Community With Safe Borders.” Best suited for serious week-end entrepreneurs, cool college students, stay at home moms. If you have viral marketing, search engine optimization skills, as one of the founders “I can put you at the top of the food chain.” Earn $30,000 per MONTH or more with “forced matrix” marketing. NEW viral/pandemic venture, the likes of skype, my space, netscape, google. I am a very-serious entrepreneur with a very serious May 1st start date, Only “serious people that want serious money” need to respond with their contact information.


My personal invitation to your participation in www.kanosis.com

We are assembling/constructing an “internet community” of like-minded business persons, college students, an internet community with secure borders, virus free web based contact management, encrypted emails, file storage, movie and music downloads, voice over internet, video emails. A new internet society.



We are going to grow quickly and exponentially. The opportunity for you is to earn up to $36,000 per MONTH plus additional sales commissions. With our ground-breaking marketing approach (forced 2x14 matrix) 14 participants will earn 5% of each new subscription, and we are going to introduce additional commissions through product sales.



FORCED MATRIX
Forced matrix is, by far, the most effective and powerful downline builder in MLM history! Forced matrix is totally different from the conventional MLM type system. In a forced matrix, the whole team benefits from new affiliates. Forced matrix is now the most common types of compensation plans available on the Internet. It has a maximum width and dept. You can sign up a maximum number of affiliates and place them in your first level positions. Any sign-ups beyond the maximum number of first level positions will be placed in other downline positions.



This viral/pandemic marketing is best suited for small business owners who need strong security to their internet, stay at home mothers, college students as they move from home to school. With the forced matrix 70% of the subscription price will be returned to participants. 14 participants will get paid from every subscription. . Listen to a pre-recorded Kanosis 4 minute message at 641-793-7509 and visit www.kanosis.com




I sincerely hope that you will take a serious look at this timely material and make an investment in your self. We only have now to

reach our dreams. Why not take the next step.



Clarify your goals
Identify your blocks
Practice your intention
Align to your Source Energy
Manifest what you really want!

Grab reality - Reorient yourself - Invest in your strengths - Thrive

[Ferret]

We are looking for “WEB-PRENEURS” Serious/ very serious -- week-end entrepreneurs, cool and serious college students, and stay at home moms with a need to earn some serious money. We have an innovative “viral/pandemic marketing” project live May 1st 2006. We plan to achieve wildfire success up to 10million new subscribers within a (conservative) 14 month period. Tired of living pay check to pay check? Feel left out in all of the past “Big Things” well you now have the opportunity to create a dynamic future for you and your family on the ground level.
14 months x 30 days = 420 days divided into 10,000,000 = 23,809 sign ups per day

23,809 sign ups per day

Today's Sign-Ups: 62
Year-To-Date Sign-Ups: 7466

1,000,000 would be 2,380 per day

100,000 would be 238 per day

70 per day = 2100 per month = 29,400 + 7,500 = 36,900 Total in the next 14 months

[ycchen]

Ferret, good info, thanks.

It is the required hypes (or "false promise") and the mathematically impossibility that give pyramid-matrix scheme a bad name. Without the hypes to get the money-hunting people into the pyramid, the kanosis will not fly with mere coil product. The way it is marketed proves that the kanosis executives are obviously not confident about the product they offer.

Otherwise, they do not need 90% of ponzi players (who don't care or even use their product) to promote coil. :crazy:

That's why kanosis executives use hypes and encourage all its promoters to do the same by floating the whole interent (and also the church) with all the get-rich hypes. :shake:

When the kanosis scheme dies (and it will because it is neither skype nor google lol lol ), I am sure the executives will put the blame on everyone else except themselves.

So, prepare for the lecture when the kanosis scheme hit the wall when it reaches 0.01 million.

"dont' invest more than you can afford to lose" ;

"it is not a money game, and you should not focus on that aspect. Coil is what you paid for, so enjoy it and stop complaining";

"you can't expect it to grow forever if you just sit on your hands"

....

[ycchen]

Address of Kanosis:
http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/contact/lang/english/contactus
Cyprus Headquarters

Kanosis Limited
Floor 3rd & 4th& 5th
Nikis Avenue and 3 Niovis Street Corner
Ayioi Omologites
1086, Nicosia Cyprus

US Administration Offices

Kanosis Limited
Newport Beach, CA Since Kanosis is probably more well known than google today, it does not need to list actual address at Newport Beach, California. :shake:

Also, anyone attend the press conference of their May 1 opening ceremony? :rolleyes: I can't find any press release or newspaper report on this soon-to-be google company.

They should get more publicity through legitimate mainstream media and not spamming on internet! :shake:

http://www.kanosis.com/index.cfm/id/26/lang/english/theopportunity
The Kanosis model overcomes the traditional inhibitors to success by:

1. Providing you with all sales and promotional tools, including your own website and a state-of-the-art promotional Flash movie that have been optimized to do all the selling for you.

2. Minimizing your time involvement and utilizing the Internet as your primary marketing medium. You can promote Kanosis just by typing-in an email address and hitting send.

3. Being affordable, with membership fees of only $25 USD and a monthly commitment of only $22 USD.

4. Providing a unique and powerful software product at a great value.

[Ferret]

Address of Kanosis:
Since Kanosis is probably more well known than google today, it does not need to list actual address at Newport Beach, California. :shake:
Kanosis Limited
Newport Beach, CA

Kanosis used to list the street address of their "Newport Beach location"

They removed this info from their website along with the FAQ recently

Why did they do this?

Does anyone know or still have the address saved?

Perhaps JimS or Trip Wakefeild (Now that he is a MW member) can provide an answer?

[concerned]

Otherwise, they do not need 90% of ponzi players (who don't care or even use their product) to promote coil. :crazy:


Yeah. I cannot wait till the programmers that spend 17 hours per day finishing the product realize that their hard work was for nothing since their product will never be used.

[Ferret]

http://www.kanosisreview.com/?p=17

Kanosis Review

My Sponsor Quit (Fallacies of the compensation plan)
April 19th, 2006

Important read first
If you are brand new to network marketing, I do not recommend for you to read this article as this may damage your business. Please only continue reading if you are an experienced MLMer who has been in many companies before and will not be affected by the following negative comments… I repeat, if you are new to network marketing and love kanosis, DO NOT proceed reading as you may risk destroying your business in Kanosis.

Why My Sponsor Quit
I got an SMS from my sponsor telling me he quit Kanosis and obtained a full refund, and it was upto me if I wanted to do the same. Ah, he did tell me earlier that this was because he didnt quite like the compensation plan for these reasons:

- You are unlikely to be able to build a huge organisation just from spill over. This is true - the principle for binary compensation plans is for everyone to sponsor at least two and duplicate this. With Pareto’s principle and in experience in general, in reality only 20% or less do this and hence the lazy asses rely on spillover. The way in which Kanosis works is that spillover distributors are placed left to right on each level until they are filled. If you are 5-7 levels below an active sponsorer, you have little to no chance of receving spill over, compared to other binary plans which spillover according to left and right legs.

- You lose if you get a very active person under your 14th level. My sponsor raised a valid point. You sponsor someone. They then sponsor someone, but only one or two people.. this keeps going until you have a leg of 14 people. Everybody in this leg is not actively sponsoring but they keep purchasing their monthly subscriptions to COIL. You’re going to earn at least $14 a month. however, person number 14 sponsors someone in 15, then 15 sponsors a supernetworker, and supernetworker goes out and fills up his matrix. How much does person 15 earn? A ****load. How much does 14 get? A whole load too but not as much as 15. How much do you get ? Nothing, according to the plan, as you only get paid on your first 14 levels.

These were the main two points that drove home.

Yes, there are other binary plans which do not have a ‘level limit’ but pay a lesser percentage. I would rather this than Kanosis. However I will still stay with Kanosis for the next few months to see how it plays out. Each plan has it’s on advantages and disadvantages.

I trust my sponsors judgement, as we have built many a MLM business together, and currently are working focusing another project.
http://www.petrolsavings.myffi.biz/

Basically being in multiple MLM’s is like the stockmarket, you diversify your options in case one fails. Same should be applied here in the world of MLM. The exception being in MLM is that it is extremely difficult to juggle more than 2 MLM’s at the same time.

Entry Filed under: Compensation Plan

[Webwatch]

You are unlikely to be able to build a huge organisation just from spill over. This is true - the principle for binary compensation plans is for everyone to sponsor at least two and duplicate this. With Pareto’s principle and in experience in general, in reality only 20% or less do this and hence the lazy asses rely on spillover.Funny how the Ponzi players consider those that dont decide to build their downline as 'Lazy Asses' where Kanosis considers them customers.

[Webwatch]

Just a small observation.

Whilst updating my software the other day imagine my surprise when I happened to take a look at the Windows Vista Site: http://www.microsoft.com/Windowsvista/

All seems a bit similar to http://www.kanosis.com

Now it seems that microsoft are copying the Kanosis layout of their website unless of course Vista came first then Kanosis is copying the Vista layout or maybe its just a coincidence.

I must state that the products are totally dissimilar as one is an operating system riddled with bugs and flaws and the other one is Kanosis/Coil (Sorry Bill). :)

Anyway as we haven't heard anything from any Kanosians lately I thought it worth bumping this thread up to see how things are going.

Is the overhyped Viral Marketing stratergy working and growing exponentially as promised or just stuttering along with 10 or 20 new sign ups a day.
As I haven't felt a Paradigm shift yet I'm guessing it maybe the latter.

[amazingplace]

I cancelled my membership (rather sent in a cancellation request and am waiting for confirmation) the other day.

I think COIL may eventually morph into something useful but at this time, it has two major technical flaws --

First it is java based which does not make it accessible everywhere -- i.e. you can't just log into COIL at the local library or internet cafe because those machines are typically locked down and you are not allowed to install applications.

Second it is a bandwidth pig and without a high speed connection, it is extremely slow between input and screen update.

The concept is there but the foundation that the application is built on is flawed.

The rate of new signups is about the same as prior to the May 1 launch

I may rejoin at some later date but for now, there is no reason to spend my $23.00 per month on something I do not use.

[Webwatch]

Hello AP and thanks for the update.

The technical side baffles me slightly so I wont critique that to much as its still early days.

What does surprise me is the now $23 cost-have they pulled the old credit card administration fee trick and added a dollar on.

Any marketing executive worth their salt would know this is a no no as when you are trying to releive customers of their money don't put silly obsticles in their way like extra card fees.

[JimSouthworth]

I cancelled my membership (rather sent in a cancellation request and am waiting for confirmation) the other day.

I think COIL may eventually morph into something useful but at this time, it has two major technical flaws --

First it is java based which does not make it accessible everywhere -- i.e. you can't just log into COIL at the local library or internet cafe because those machines are typically locked down and you are not allowed to install applications.I'm glad you at least are keeping an open mind about this issue, but let me assure you that I also have been checking out Cyber-cafe's and librares etc. and they more than other locations actually are where I am finding the latest version of the Java web-start being deployed the most often... Infact the Microsoft equivalent of ".Net" is also being installed as a means of allowing universal applications that are secured and far less proprietary than most any other "Thin-client" approach. In fact yesterday at a pay-per-use airport kiosk in Houston I found Java webstart as standard. Last week I found similar on the Kiosks I tried in the Denver airport. The place we are actually finding this to be at least a difficulty are the larger enterprise networks for major corporations and financial institutions that lock out any and all changes anyhow, no-matter what you use that is not browser based. But, even these are migrating to having both ".Net" and "Java" available because of their increased use for on-line open source applications and the fact that SSL VPNs are now more at risk since the Chinese have cracked the "SHA-1" hashing algorithym that is used in SSL encryption key-management. Proprietary "applications programming" is much much harder to secure, validate, and certify as not allowing "back-doors" to infest a corporate network. We chose "Java" a long time ago and have found that decision to be visionary(I'd be lieing if I didn't also say it was a very very lucky choice as well). Our new VoIP client, the Stock Brokerage Client, the Video Playback client, etc. etc. are all Java based also.
Second it is a bandwidth pig and without a high speed connection, it is extremely slow between input and screen update.the primary reason for the slow-down is that if you notice the dialog that shows in the Java status box while the load is taking place, you will see that it has detected usually a new version of our client code. Primarily because of the new "Security Updates" to MS IE most recently, we have had to fix and make almost a hundred software changes each week since those updates were released the last few weeks. Add these problems up and you can see why we are fixing stuff like crazy these past two weeks. What is further interesting is that we have had to fix less than a third as many "bugs" for users that running on the open source "Thunderbird" browser instead. Last week we patched and released almost hundred updates to both the Kanosis platform and to "Coil" combined. We have also activated the abilty to ONLY bring in a new copy of our "Thin-Client" when the one being run on is not up tpThe concept is there but the foundation that the application is built on is flawed.And our policy to refund your money is only the right thing to do if you are not satified with the service.
The rate of new signups is about the same as prior to the May 1 launch

I may rejoin at some later date but for now, there is no reason to spend my $23.00 per month on something I do not use. I look forward to your return AP, since you are the kind of intelligent user who joined primarily for the services we provide.

[Ferret]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kanosis-Coil-Software_W0QQitemZ6057041859QQcategoryZ45209QQcmdZ ViewItem

www.Kanosis.com

Contact me at traveler@Kanosis.com for more information.
OR
If you have enough information enter username (ironman) and sign up NOW



Kanosis provides the COIL software to anyone. You are not required to promote the networking business to be a part of Kanosis and use COIL. This is an added feature of Kanosis. Please go to the site above and read thoroughly so you understand the company and what is offered.
This is breaking eBays rules as it allows bidders to circumvent fees and
the monthly fee isn't included in the price
Is this against kanosis's rules?

This is what happens when you have 10,000 sales people

[JimSouthworth]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kanosis-Coil-Software_W0QQitemZ6057041859QQcategoryZ45209QQcmdZ ViewItem


This is breaking eBays rules as it allows bidders to circumvent fees and
the monthly fee isn't included in the price
Is this against kanosis's rules?

This is what happens when you have 10,000 sales peopleExactly why we selected this business model..... I'm not sure I find anything in our post-launch rules on this, but you are probably right about the Ebay rules, but after the way I have been handled by Ebay customer service and security people when I have helped many many other people recover from actual fraudulent transactions, I don't feel like enforcing their rules if its not my responsibility or liability..... and besides the actual accurate Kanosis prices for everything are shown in the included complete description... completely unlike the manfacturer required maintence contracts and non-transferable but required software licenses that seem to be completely left out of many other sleezy equipment auctions occaisionally on Ebay....

[Ferret]

So when is your bio along with all the other kanosis "founders"
showing up on kanosis.com?
What is the problem?
Both you and Kildey promised this would happen a long time ago

[Ferret]

This guy Jim Mack is a major internet scammer
He pushes 1stepsystem and whatever other scam he can make a buck on...
FFI- Fuel Freedom International is the flavor for this month
Did you know there is a Gas Pill that can actually save you money on your gas and you simply put the pill in your tank every time you pump your gas at the station?
Total BS

I know this breaks your rules
http://www.whoisjimmack.com/kanosis.php

What would you say if I told you about
An Opportunity Worth
More than $400,000 a year
With a
Daily Investment of $0.70
and some extra time!

Your reaction most probably will be
Is This a Scam?

But Then
All Great Ideas Are Frowned Upon!

Just Think of a Market with a
Potential User Base of 6,499,697,060 (6.5 Billion)

How would you like to be involved with an Internet company
with the potential of Google, eBay, AOL or Yahoo combined?

An opportunity called
KANOSIS

Benefits of Kanosis
Protect your data from online theft
Store and backup your files online
Access your data and emails from anywhere, anytime, even when your computer is virus infected or when you buy a new computer
Easily manage your files and projects – share and transfer files from one computer to another
Easily convert voice to text
Send text messages
Register domain names and host your websites
Get paid helping people use the software!



A One of a Kind of Software with the Features of
Google Yahoo MS Outlook Netscape
Skype Plaxo ICQ, AOL IM MS Project
Real Player My Space Time Slips Linked In
GoDaddy Internet Explorer Groove

A product that builds a community; grows with it and shares with it.

A product which is 2 years ahead of similar offerings from Microsoft & Yahoo.

A product with 6 years R&D and 60,000 hours + of programming behind it.

A product that isn’t controlled by the primarily interest of economic gain,
but of innovation and sense of community.

...and there's much, much more in the pipeline too...

You get all these for just $59:
1st Payment $59 System Setup ($15 setup fee + $44 for 2 months subscription)
Monthly software subscription charges of $22 per month

Have questions? Call me on 913-375-0052 or email me at justjim@whoisjimmack.com. I’ll tell you flat out – what a huge opportunity
Kanosis is.

[JimSouthworth]

So when is your bio along with all the other kanosis "founders"
showing up on kanosis.com?
What is the problem?
Both you and Kildey promised this would happen a long time ago And MY Bio has been posted for any member to see on the internal message boards for almost 4 months..... I don't need to speak for any of the other staff, but I saw the web page that was built that includes all of our Bio's a while back..... last time I checked you didn't sign or authorize my salary, so I guess it will happen when it needs to happen..... any member has had any question of this type answered fully internally and personally.

[JimSouthworth]

This guy Jim Mack is a major internet scammer
He pushes 1stepsystem and whatever other scam he can make a buck on...
FFI- Fuel Freedom International is the flavor for this month

Total BS

I know this breaks your rules
http://www.whoisjimmack.com/kanosis.phpI'll turn this one in to get it fixed.... but if you have any others we don't catch ourselves, there is always Abuse@Kanosis.com that we use to work with all the other good citizens of the Internet to strictly enforce the anti-spam and fraudulent content rules....

[Ferret]

And MY Bio has been posted for any member to see on the internal message boards for almost 4 months..... I don't need to speak for any of the other staff, but I saw the web page that was built that includes all of our Bio's a while back..... last time I checked you didn't sign or authorize my salary, so I guess it will happen when it needs to happen..... any member has had any question of this type answered fully internally and personally.
So you are only showing your bio's to the converted........

Too embarassed to have all the founders bio's out there for the public to
see?
At 10,000 members now kanosis is about 500,000+ short of Kildeys hyped
up prediction of 10 million kanosians by a years time
Kanosis needs 27,000+ a day to sign up to keep his prediction

Kanosis.com doesn't even have a FAQ.......... Skype had bios and
a FAQ...........

[Ferret]

I'll turn this one in to get it fixed.... but if you have any others we don't catch ourselves, there is always Abuse@Kanosis.com that we use to work with all the other good citizens of the Internet to strictly enforce the anti-spam and fraudulent content rules....
You could try typing kanosis into Google...........it has only been there for months waiting for you to find it
There are many more but you don't pay me to enforce your TOU so find them yourself
Thats what you get when you have ~10,000 salespeople
Kanosis is being pushed next to two very bad scams, 1step and gas pills........great company

Prediction: kanosis will never reach 100,000 kanosians and will fade away in 6 months
I actually think 50,000 will never happen.........3,000 month x 6 months = 18,000 + 10,000 = 28,000

[JimSouthworth]

So you are only showing your bio's to the converted........

Too embarassed to have all the founders bio's out there for the public to
see? I'm not embarassed about any of the people I work with and you know, it may seem a little arrogant on my part but I'm proud to vouch for ANY of them to anybody..... Oh by the way where is your REAL Bio and what gives you the right to demand something from us that you won't supply yourself??? are you ashamed ???
Kanosis.com doesn't even have a FAQ.......... Skype had bios and
a FAQ...........and Skype has been around a couple of years longer than us, but there are now new FAQ's, forums, and now sales/marketing tools posted internally..... and since we allow trial memberships to users who at least properly and legally identify themselves, I would think that meets any reasonable criteria, especially when you are dealing with a responsible actual business like Kanosis.

[Ferret]

I'm not embarassed about any of the people I work with and you know, it may seem a little arrogant on my part but I'm proud to vouch for ANY of them to anybody..... Oh by the way where is your REAL Bio and what gives you the right to demand something from us that you won't supply yourself??? are you ashamed ???

and Skype has been around a couple of years longer than us, but there are now new FAQ's, forums, and now sales/marketing tools posted internally..... and since we allow trial memberships to users who at least properly and legally identify themselves, I would think that meets any reasonable criteria, especially when you are dealing with a responsible actual business like Kanosis.
Making people have to sign up with a credit card to get all the facts
is Arrogance in the extreme even if you do have a 30 day money back guarantee
That is why you only have 10,000 members now.......
When is COIL getting an independent review by a computer mag or similar?
ZDnet, anything, been out for almost a month.......where are the press releases?

Both You and Kildey PROMISED in writing here at MW that your bios would
be on the public website
Do you deny this?
I guess your promises aren't worth much..................

I was talking about Skype years ago when they were BETA, not now
I was a "Skypien" from day one so I know what I am talking about

Kanosis had a very bad FAQ and when I pointed out that you were
breaking your own rules by mentioning your taboo word "MATRIX" in it you
responded by deleting the FAQ and never replaced it

Pathetic.........and very "unSkypelike".......please stop comparing kanosis to Skype
as you aren't in their league

PS: You left out and forgot to answer this part of my post

At 10,000 members now kanosis is about 500,000+ short of Kildeys hyped
up prediction of 10 million kanosians by a years time
Kanosis needs 27,000+ a day to sign up to keep his prediction

[Ferret]

I'm not embarassed about any of the people I work with and you know, it may seem a little arrogant on my part but I'm proud to vouch for ANY of them to anybody..... Oh by the way where is your REAL Bio and what gives you the right to demand something from us that you won't supply yourself??? are you ashamed ???
.You PROMISED in writing here at MW that your bio would
be on the public website and Kildey said the same on a transcribed conference call that is in a thread here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Not ashamed, my bio is totally irrelevent to this discussion
Are you in touch with reality?
I am not hyping a pyramid scheme like you and kanosis are......

OK, seeing this is at least the tenth? time you have made an issue of this
What info do you want and why do you want it?

What are you going to do with the info?

What difference would it make to you?

I won't be saying anything different in this forum

Answer these questions or shut up.......

[JimSouthworth]

Both You and Kildey PROMISED in writing here at MW that your bios would
be on the public websiteYes we did, and maybe they will be there soon, as we both asked to have them displayed, but anybody with even a slightest bit of the internet search skill that you and your good buddy "Concerned" supposedly have to make the psuedo technical evaluations and judgements of software and systems you have absolutely no experience with or obvious understanding of, should be at least be capable of finding one of the dozens of websites, magazine articles, newspaper stories and public company fillings to the SEC that include my resume and/or Bio information(something I have worked over 35 years to earn).....

Not ashamed, my bio is totally irrelevent to this discussion
Are you in touch with reality? It becomes relevant when you decide to try to play at the same level on subjects you can only distort, manipulate, insult and abuse instead of being even the slightest bit respectful of me as an honest and gutsy enough to use ALL my own information partcipant on this site LIKE ALL the others who live here..... When you go off on me like you and Concerned have, you are then lieing to the public you have falsely promised to supply the truth and facts, not the negiqative hype you are dishing out.
I am not hyping a pyramid scheme like you and kanosis are...... And neither is Kanosis hyping a pyramid scheme as you put it.... to say such is to intentionally damage Kanosis as well as to falsely present yourself as having the legal knowledge, experience, and proof that any of the government agencies and regulatory bodies we are already in contact with have not declared or consider us to be.

OK, seeing this is at least the tenth? time you have made an issue of this
What info do you want and why do you want it?

What are you going to do with the info?

What difference would it make to you?real simple, I'll just level the playing field and let you post it here for the readers and the search engines to find as I and the others of Kanosis that have released our information publicly have done, so that when you make a stupid uniformed inaccurate assumption or accusation again, I don't have to waste the time of anyone else reading this to point out your errors. Remember this is hobby for you and a Job for me, and I earn most of my income doing the heavy duty scaleable infrastructure implimentation. I won't be saying anything different in this forum

TO Quote Ferret: Answer these questions or shut up.... temper temper...... you are starting to show the same level of irritation I have with you and "Concerned"..... and I have seen more than one "loose canon" change their attitude when its obvious from their bio/resume that they don't know what they profess to understand. And by the way one of my business partners and I got involved with Skype long before they broke through their first 50,000 users.... In fact I was doing real carrier grade VoIP in large quantities in 1997 between the US and Australia with Aussie-Mail before the first H323 standards were even established, and even 4 years before the SIP protocol that Skype now uses a variation of.

[Webwatch]

I See Jim Mack popped up again in this discussion.

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Jim Mack and Trip Wakefields Kanosis hyping techniques, what I'm getting it is are they related? are they just business partners in this or are they the same person??.

Its not that important really but it helps me build a picture of how a few bad apples in the whole Kanosis pot can overhype something so much that they fall victim to their own Pyramid Style marketing stratergy. i.e. when a customer joins and expects exponential growth and they dont get it within the first month they leave.

10000+ members is a great start for any business but its how you keep those members recruiting that is they key even adding a $1 extra fee to the subscription charge will be enough for a few to stop their monthly subscription.

Kanosis: Take my advice (bet you don't) if you want to attract new members look after your present ones, removing this $1 fee for credit cards would be a start as its the small things that make the difference and after all $1 of $22 is a 4.5% surcharge.

[Ferret]

I See Jim Mack popped up again in this discussion.

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Jim Mack and Trip Wakefields Kanosis hyping techniques, what I'm getting it is are they related? are they just business partners in this or are they the same person??.

Its not that important really but it helps me build a picture of how a few bad apples in the whole Kanosis pot can overhype something so much that they fall victim to their own Pyramid Style marketing stratergy. i.e. when a customer joins and expects exponential growth and they dont get it within the first month they leave.
Huh???, Jim Mack is a big time internet scammer and not the same guy as Trip Wakefield who can't seem to keep his foot out of his mouth,
it's been one gaff after another and then kanosis denies they know him
even though he introduces all the conference calls.......

What a joke.....

10000+ members is a great start for any business but its how you keep those members recruiting that is they key even adding a $1 extra fee to the subscription charge will be enough for a few to stop their monthly subscription.

Kanosis: Take my advice (bet you don't) if you want to attract new members look after your present ones, removing this $1 fee for credit cards would be a start as its the small things that make the difference and after all $1 of $22 is a 4.5% surcharge.
What you don't realize is that kanosis needs 500,000+? subscriptions to just stay afloat and not to go out of business

Also that credit charge surcharge has been there for a while and kanosis needs every dollar it can get
They have been raising the prices and talking of or charging for videos and avatars
Also been reducing their service; cut the Online storage from 6 GB down to 2 GB

[Webwatch]

Huh???, Jim Mack is a big time internet scammer and not the same guy as Trip Wakefield who can't seem to keep his foot out of his mouth,
it's been one gaff after another and then kanosis denies they know him
even though he introduces all the conference calls.......

What a joke.....

I should have mentioned this earlier but remember Trips Kanosis Avalanche e-mail lead scheme which was quickly put on the back burner a few weeks ago, Kanosisavalanche is registered to Jaymack Trust (Jim Mack is president)- I know its only a faint connection but a connection none the less.
Probably not the same guy but still worth a mention.

What you don't realize is that kanosis needs 500,000+? subscriptions to just stay afloat and not to go out of business

$11 Million a month just to function, the Cyprus office lease rates must be extortionate if this is true.

[Ferret]

Yes we did, and maybe they will be there soon, as we both asked to have them displayed, but anybody with even a slightest bit of the internet search skill that you and your good buddy "Concerned" supposedly have to make the psuedo technical evaluations and judgements of software and systems you have absolutely no experience with or obvious understanding of, should be at least be capable of finding one of the dozens of websites, magazine articles, newspaper stories and public company fillings to the SEC that include my resume and/or Bio information(something I have worked over 35 years to earn).....

It becomes relevant when you decide to try to play at the same level on subjects you can only distort, manipulate, insult and abuse instead of being even the slightest bit respectful of me as an honest and gutsy enough to use ALL my own information partcipant on this site LIKE ALL the others who live here..... When you go off on me like you and Concerned have, you are then lieing to the public you have falsely promised to supply the truth and facts, not the negiqative hype you are dishing out.
And neither is Kanosis hyping a pyramid scheme as you put it.... to say such is to intentionally damage Kanosis as well as to falsely present yourself as having the legal knowledge, experience, and proof that any of the government agencies and regulatory bodies we are already in contact with have not declared or consider us to be.

real simple, I'll just level the playing field and let you post it here for the readers and the search engines to find as I and the others of Kanosis that have released our information publicly have done, so that when you make a stupid uniformed inaccurate assumption or accusation again, I don't have to waste the time of anyone else reading this to point out your errors. Remember this is hobby for you and a Job for me, and I earn most of my income doing the heavy duty scaleable infrastructure implimentation. temper temper...... you are starting to show the same level of irritation I have with you and "Concerned"..... and I have seen more than one "loose canon" change their attitude when its obvious from their bio/resume that they don't know what they profess to understand. And by the way one of my business partners and I got involved with Skype long before they broke through their first 50,000 users.... In fact I was doing real carrier grade VoIP in large quantities in 1997 between the US and Australia with Aussie-Mail before the first H323 standards were even established, and even 4 years before the SIP protocol that Skype now uses a variation of.
I am not interested in your bio, JimS, I was talking about the "Herbalife guy", Kildey et al

Your rambling incoherent statements here hurt my head trying to figure
out what you are going on about........you are a horrible writer......
stick to the tech stuff.......
I think it is way past your bed time too

PS: Concerned is a moderator on MW and we don't communicate about what either
of us says here
He is NOT my "good buddy", I don't know any more about him than you do
Mr Southworth from reading what he says here

you and your good buddy "Concerned" supposedly have to make the psuedo technical evaluations and judgements of software and systems you have absolutely no experience with or obvious understanding
You are one VERY confused puppy Mr Southworth; I have never made any technical evaluations and judgements of software
They were made by Concerned; NOT me......get it?
We are different people........

I am just a "regular user" who does not speak for MW or have any
affiliation with MW
My opinions are my own........get it?

I haven't promised to supply the truth and facts to anyone....
Where did you get this foolish idea from?
This is a forum that I post my opinion on, nothing more and nothing less

This forum is based in the US where freedom of speech still exists even though
that seems to bother you a lot
Tough......

[concerned]

Wow

It is an honor to have one of the internet's Top 20 people back in our forum. Welcome back Jim.

The place we are actually finding this to be at least a difficulty are the larger enterprise networks for major corporations and financial institutions that lock out any and all changes anyhow, no-matter what you use that is not browser based.

I could only imagine you are seeing this because these places tase security seriously, and will almost never allow a user to place sensitive files on a server outside their walls. They also have to button down security on each machine to avoid people installing pirated software, as they are the most likely organization to get fined for piracy. I don't think your revolutionary product will ever change this fact.

we have had to fix and make almost a hundred software changes each week since those updates were released the last few weeks. Add these problems up and you can see why we are fixing stuff like crazy these past two weeks. What is further interesting is that we have had to fix less than a third as many "bugs" for users that running on the open source "Thunderbird" browser instead. Last week we patched and released almost hundred updates to both the Kanosis platform and to "Coil" combined.

Why do you have to fix bugs AFTER the release? If you are still fixing bugs, then your software is STILL in BETA, which you have been reluctant to admit here several times in the past. I think that is why people are already leaving the product. They thought they paid for a finished product, not something with bugs still in it.

our policy to refund your money is only the right thing to do if you are not satified with the service.

This brings up an interesting question. If your policy allows for refunds, how do they work? Since almost 80% of the money goes to the person who refered them into Kanosis, do you have to take that money away from that person? Otherwise, Kanosis would have collected about $4 and refund $22 which isn't smart business, don't you agree?

I look forward to your return AP, since you are the kind of intelligent user who joined primarily for the services we provide.

And he was also the kind of intelligent user to see through the propaganda and realize the product was NOT worth what he was paying for it.

[concerned]

I'm not sure I find anything in our post-launch rules on this, but you are probably right about the Ebay rules, but after the way I have been handled by Ebay customer service and security people when I have helped many many other people recover from actual fraudulent transactions, I don't feel like enforcing their rules if its not my responsibility or liability..... and besides the actual accurate Kanosis prices for everything are shown in the included complete description... completely unlike the manfacturer required maintence contracts and non-transferable but required software licenses that seem to be completely left out of many other sleezy equipment auctions occaisionally on Ebay....

Good to see that Kanosis employees have no ethics and don't care if they break the rules of others, as long as they sell their product. Now that I realize how unethical you all are, where do I sign up?

[concerned]

Oh by the way where is your REAL Bio and what gives you the right to demand something from us that you won't supply yourself??? are you ashamed ???

I am not stating you are a scammer quite yet, but this is definately scammer mentality. The more I read your posts, the more similar you sound to the scammers we deal with on a daily basis. Your always turning a question around to the original person who asked it. Ferret (or anyone else on this forum) does not need to provide you a bio because WE DON'T SELL ANYTHING. We are not asking people to trust us with their money. We don't sell based on our reputation. Kanosis is. In fact, they are selling on the fact that you are in the "Top 20 on the internet" which is a long streatch at most.

[concerned]

but anybody with even a slightest bit of the internet search skill that you and your good buddy "Concerned" supposedly have to make the psuedo technical evaluations and judgements of software and systems you have absolutely no experience with or obvious understanding of, should be at least be capable of finding one of the dozens of websites, magazine articles, newspaper stories and public company fillings to the SEC that include my resume and/or Bio information(something I have worked over 35 years to earn).....

First of all I am not a good buddy of Ferret. I'm not saying I wouldn't be, but I really don't know anything about Ferret as a person. Secondly, I didn't make my "technical evaluations" of the software, because it was IMPOSSIBLE to make a technical judgement, since I was not allowed a FREE evaluation of the BETA like most companies allow. In fact, my only judgements were based on the LACK of information found on the internet. All my judgements of the software were based on statements that came from you, almost all of which contradicted themselves. So, you need to step back and take a good hard look at my criticism of the software. It was not TECHNICAL criticism, it was LACK of information criticism. Since you still don't have technical information on the internet about the product, I cannot really look at it, now can I?

[nepatriots]

Your rambling incoherent statements here hurt my head trying to figure
out what you are going on about........you are a horrible writer......

It's these kinds of attacks that just prove how much of a inconsiderate, unintelligent and closed minded person you really are. I didn't plan on even wasting my time in this forum again until I read some of this crap being posted. If you have to resort to ripping people to get your point across then you don't have one... plain and simple.

This forum is based in the US where freedom of speech still exists even though
that seems to bother you a lot
Tough......

I think you meant to say freedom of speech still exists as long as it doesn't go against what Ferret believes! :head:

[nepatriots]

If you are still fixing bugs, then your software is STILL in BETA, which you have been reluctant to admit here several times in the past.

This comment will definitely go down in the annals of MW classic comments! If you spend any time at all working with ANY software out there you will find bugs in them (beta or not)... pull your head out please! :head:

[Webwatch]

Hello nepatriots,
How are you finding coil/kanosis at the moment. I'm not really after negatives just the positives, if you have any feedback to give us that would be nice.

[Ferret]

I think you meant to say freedom of speech still exists as long as it doesn't go against what Ferret believes! :head:
Another rediculous statement from nepatriots.....

What have I stopped you or anyone else from saying?

You obviously don't get the concept, both you and I get to say
whatever we want.......

PS: How is the kanosis experience?
Are you making lots of money?

[Watchman]

If you want to gain an insight into the Kanosis scamsters, go to http://www.primedomain.com/ and through that site you will be able to reach Primegate and then Hyperoffice, or go direct to http://www.hyperoffice.com/
There you will find the forerunner of Kanosis which did not work and many lost thousands of dollars. Some put up $20,000 for the "rights" to a "city server" and have not seen their money since or any launching of the scheme/scam. Kildey and Whittington were co-scamsters in this.

[Webwatch]

Hello Watchman and welcome to Matrixwatch,

Could you provide us with more information on Hyperoffice and the Kildey, Whittington connection.

[Watchman]

Mr. Kildey said he was world-wide marketing & product manager & he & Stephen Whittington were raising funds for Prime Domain. Meanwhile Mr. Kildey was selling these "City Servers" to unsuspecting people for $20000. They were supposedly going to generate an amount per transaction for that allocated area. Scammed "clients" were sold "city servers" & Mr. Kildey supposedly had been asked to live in America and manage Prime Domain and Mr. Whittington the CEO.

Kildey was pushed for Contracts and boundary definitions, Kildey said that Keith Bucks (Prime Domain) would not return his calls and had not done so for 6 weeks and if you wanted your money returned, you had to take it up with Prime Domain. So far nobody has had their money returned nor had the system set up with boundaries defined.

[Watchman]

If there is anybody who believes that Kanosis will make them any money for all but a short period of time they should investigate the structures of pyramids, Ponzi schemes, network marketing etc.. We need to understand that pyramids, such as the Amway method as an example only, can never hope to have the approximate 25% of last joiners make any money. There are but two extremes. One is where the company signs up all 6.4 billion people directly under the company with 6.4 billion downlines, thereby ensuring that not one of those signed up can make any money. The other extreme is where the company signs up one person and that person them signs up one person all the way down so that there are 6.4 billion people signed up under the company and there is but one downline. There would be approximately 1.6 billion people who could only buy at wholesale and never make any money under that setup. With most network schemes it is the approximate 25% at the bottom who can only buy at wholesale and make money for their uplines.

I have had great discussions with government departments known as "Fair Trading" and they accept the point that banks are pyramid schemes which require a constant stream of new customers borrowing money in order to stay in business and make their business grow. Casinos are pyramid schemes which require a constant stream of cutomers (read suckers) to walk in the door and lose money in order to stay in business and grow. The only reason governments allow these schems to operate is because they get taxes from the operations.

[Watchman]

A 2 wide matrix (a mathematical doubling) is as follows; It can be seen that between level 31 and 32 you reach the world population of 6.4 billion.
You = 1
Level 1 = 2
Level 2 = 4
Level 3 = 8
Level 4 = 16
Level 5 = 32
Level 6 = 64
Level 7 = 128
Level 8 = 256
Level 9 = 512
Level 10 = 1024
Level 11 = 2048
Level 12 = 4096
Level 13 = 8192
Level 14 = 16384
Level 15 = 32768
Level 16 = 65536
Level 17 = 131072
Level 18 = 262144
Level 19 = 524288
Level 20 = 1048576
Level 21 = 2097152
Level 22 = 4194304
Level 23 = 8388608
Level 24 = 16777216
Level 25 = 33554432
Level 26 = 67108864
Level 27 = 134217728
Level 28 = 268435456
Level 29 = 536870912
Level 30 = 1073741824
Level 31 = 2147483648
Level 32 = 4294967296
Level 33 = 8589934592

[Webwatch]

Mr. Kildey said he was world-wide marketing & product manager & he & Stephen Whittington were raising funds for Prime Domain. Meanwhile Mr. Kildey was selling these "City Servers" to unsuspecting people for $20000. They were supposedly going to generate an amount per transaction for that allocated area. Scammed "clients" were sold "city servers" & Mr. Kildey supposedly had been asked to live in America and manage Prime Domain and Mr. Whittington the CEO.

Kildey was pushed for Contracts and boundary definitions, Kildey said that Keith Bucks (Prime Domain) would not return his calls and had not done so for 6 weeks and if you wanted your money returned, you had to take it up with Prime Domain. So far nobody has had their money returned nor had the system set up with boundaries defined.
Thank you Watchman for this information.
Maybe Jim or any other Kanosian (Alistair or Stephen Perhaps) can give us a response to these findings.

[sisco50]

Thank you Watchman for this information.
Maybe Jim or any other Kanosian (Alistair or Stephen Perhaps) can give us a response to these findings.

I am thinking that response time may be over. :(

[ycchen]

Watchman, thanks for this valuable piece of information. It does not really surprice us because people who run these type of unsustainable internet "business" often do more than just one. Through learning-by-doing, they improve over their skill of persuation over time. ;)

I suspect that the reason they need to set up one "business" after the other is because all of them are not sustainable. Why? Beause they adapt bad (often intentionally) business model.

Isn't it weird that Kanosis CEO keeps mentioning his problematic Herbalife's resume (as CEO and Founder in the 1980s), but say nothing about his current experience as CEO of Prime Domain . :rolleyes:

Watchman and friends who are familiar with Steve's recent business, please share with us your successful or not so successful experience. Often time, we understand kanosis better if we know how their chief executives run their previous business. :)

Kanosian exectutives and supporters are welcome to jump in as well. :)

[mercinary]

Post #231 on this thread. I haven't been keeping up, but this is a little excessive. Please consider starting new threads as needed.

-Merc

[Watchman]

Got to www.worrells.net.au Down Under and ask about Alistair Kildey and Global Electronic Banking. See attached PDF.

[Watchman]

See also this attached file.

[Webwatch]

Thanks Watchman for all the information, I've put it in a new thread for easy reference and discussion.
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=42631#post42631

Its been a while since we have had any figures of the current Kanosis membership level or daily sign ups. Is it perhaps that Kanosians are no longer privy to this priviledged information or is Kanosis waiting for a big burst of new members before allowing current members to see the growth.

If I was paying my $22 a month i would at least like to see how things where growing, maybe thats just me.

Anyway if anyone has any current member figures feel free to let us know otherwise I'll guess around 8700 so far.

[Ferret]

The problem that I see with you Ferret is that you have lost credibility to a certain extent.

No matter what you say, or what you present, I will tend to assume that you have motive to show Kanosis in a negative light. No matter how objective you may have started out, you don't appear to be objective anymore.

The best that can be said about you now is that you are a devils advocate - and maybe that is how you want it - so okay - to each his own - lord knows I have been the devils advocate on occasion.

So at this point, I don't think anyone here would see you as objective. Whether or not what you say is true - it is tainted by your bias presentation and your seeming disdain for Kanosis and anyone involved with it.

And you may say, "hey, I just call it as I see it, and you can't handle the truth" because of greed or whatever else you think has infected our reasoning, and that's all fine, I'm just saying don't expect anyone (or at least myself) to see you as objective about it - and this will certainly effect your credibility.

Just my opinion.Yes, but I was right lol :p

[MatrixWatch]

If you think this is suspicious, or even fraudulent, then report it to the WatchList at MatrixWatch.com (http://www.matrixwatch.com/)