Technical Discussion - COIL

[amazingplace]

I joined Kanosis a few months ago when there were fewer than 1500 members. I have not promoted it yet and am still on the fence as to how long I will continue with them. I have no downline to speak of and joined for the money :) and because the first product to be promoted seems to make sense to me as a concept.

I'd like to try and have a discussion here soley focused on the COIL system which is the first product that Kanosis will try to sell. There is one other thread that started out that way but quickly moved to the matrix and payment system. Any other propeller heads out there with me who can look at the actual product and offer opinions?

The concept of a hosted desktop is not a new one -- companies like Citrix and Microsoft have had wide-scale deployments of terminal server programs for years. Other more specialized companies have been successful at running managed desktops in industries like the legal industry. Moving this concept one step down the food chain to small businesses and consumers seems like a good one but... COIL is a java application which is hosted and launched across the Internet from a data center currently in the UK. The actual performance and user experience with a Java-based application tends to rely quite a bit on the end-user's PC. If you have an older PC or one with lots of other things running on it, then the experience tends to be mediocre at best.

As a person in the IT field, I also wonder about the infrastructure that is in place for hosting the COIL application. What assurances will Axiasoft be able to make to Kanosis and it's subscribers that their infrastructure is rock-solid. In other words, if Titan Internet, the owner of the data center where AxiaSoft hosts COIL goes out of business, has a fire, flood, whatever, what is the plan to recover COIL at an alternate data center? How is the data itself backed up and protected?

The COIL beta deployment has not changed much in the last few months which is also a concern. We are 30 days from what is supposed to be the general release of the software but new features do not seem to be getting rolled into the current beta version for the few thousand existing users to be able to test.

[Webwatch]

Firstly Welcome to Matrixwatch Amazingplace.

As I will also try and keep this thread solely to the discussion of Coil my input will be mostly be question's as i have no experience of using the software.

How have you found Coil has improved your everyday internet or computing experience in general and has it got any unique features that save time and effort and the use of multiple programs also has it replaced any of the normal programs used.
----------------------------------

Regarding the security issues, we have been lead to believe there will be multiple servers in key worldwide locations to ensure everything runs smothly. I will have to search back through the first thread as I'm sure Jim Southworth may have attempted to answer this question before.

[amazingplace]

I find that the COIL application can be of great use to me. I work in a project based role in IT and being able to track projects and time are things that I now do in other applications. Having it all in one place with the contacts for each project is appealing. I also like the fact that it is ASP based so I shouldn't have to worry about hard drive failures, laptop theft, etc.

We also use something called salesforce.com to track our customers and contacts. This is a very popular service which as big as they are has had some database failures lately and is not perfect. They also cost way more than COIL.

What COIL seems to be from the description and the design of the interface is a way for all of these things: CRM, Time tracking, email, IM, phone, etc to be in one place without having to cut and paste from one place to another, not having to pay for licencing of multiple applications and so forth.

In the long run, I am hoping that I can be convinced of the resilience of the infrastructure that supports the hosted application and database so I can trust it with my critical data.

I have now been able to read through most of the two long posts and see that they plan on having geographically diverse data centers which is a start.

The fact that Jim Southworth is associated with the application is also something that gives it credibility given his past work.

[Webwatch]

Thanks for that.
I'm sure there will be more questions on the way.

A quickie though.
Kanosis advertise a movie download feature compressing 3gb to 150mb if I remember correctly, could you let us know if this is functional yet and if so what codec is used for that compression or is it just for trailers and free stuff at the moment.

Thanks again for taking the time to come here and discuss coil.

[amazingplace]

Thanks for that.
I'm sure there will be more questions on the way.

A quickie though.
Kanosis advertise a movie download feature compressing 3gb to 150mb if I remember correctly, could you let us know if this is functional yet and if so what codec is used for that compression or is it just for trailers and free stuff at the moment.

Thanks again for taking the time to come here and discuss coil.

I have not seen that feature. Where did you hear about it?

I've used the music player which works pretty well although I find the size of the type on the interface too small and hard to read.

[Arzel]

Amazingplace,

You stated that when you started there were about 1,500 people, and I believe now there should be about 4,900 (although I am unsure if this is purely members since Jan 1, 2006). But anyway, have you noticed if COIL has remained relatively stable as membership has grown?

Basically I am curious if the number of users is impacting the performance as membership increases. They envision 10,000,000 members by the end of the year, does it seem that they would be able to accomodate that many people using COIL simultaniously?

[Webwatch]

I have not seen that feature. Where did you hear about it?

I've used the music player which works pretty well although I find the size of the type on the interface too small and hard to read.

The movie compression feature was touted in the early day's, I will see if I can still find a copy of the orginal Kanosis Coil Promotion Page.

[Webwatch]

Here We Go:

Coil Features-Courtesy of one of many downline builders websites.
COIL® is an integrated personal desktop interface that facilitates all of your:

· Communications (Voice, text/SMS, email, videomail etc),

· Collaboration (project management, file sharing),

· Community – sharing work and life online

· File Management

· Entertainment (audio, movies)

· Business Management (via an integrated MLM toolkit)



Features include:

· Permanent email – locate all current POP 3 accounts in one place

· Automatic Contact updates; Transfer all Outlook contacts into COIL®

· VOIP – computer-based telephone service=>free long distance (computer to computer)

· Instant messaging

· Google®

· Music downloads

· Movie downloads – compresses 5GB into 120 MB files

· Personal organization features ( much like Franklin Covey® system) Regarding the media player try winamp thats a nice one, free for the basic version.

[amazingplace]

It would be nice if COIL could do that I guess. For me, I am more interested in the business-type features. The people running their own sites now may or may not be keeping up with whatever is current. For me, if it doesn't say it on the official kanosis site I pretty much disregard it as hype or just someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Can anyone here point me to anything specific about how the back end is set up to protect critical data. That is really my main concern at this point. If there is nothing in place for this, then the whole point of COIL is really out the window. Part of security is not only avoiding viruses and local hardware failures but protecting and preserving data in the event of a server failure.

[Webwatch]

Its probably best for Jim to answer the security and stabilty issues as these are a critical area.

You could Private Message him with your question as I think he may occasionally stop by if he has time.

I could mention posts he has made to address this issue but a more up to date and official answer relating to your current situation might be more apropriate.

[vliscony]

Well, I am another user. I originally signed up as #1050 on Jan 17th, and took a very slow approach at first, for it is quite a paradigm shift. It is also annoying to work with a beta version and have to intuit how it's all going to work since all the features are not live or even present yet, so that leaves some parts to the imagination. However what can be seen is the basic architecture and logic of the program and it is quite impressive in my view.

The payoff is in a) Integration, ease of use, and b) Collaboration. Individual users heretofore have not had this type of collaboration environment, as you might have in a well integrated corporate setup, with Outlook, Exchange and other paraphernalia - except perhaps in some on-line "intranet" type environments. But even then, having it all tightly together is potentially time-saving. Inevitably a Java app running on a PC has some performance issues, so you sacrifice some responsiveness that you would have with local processing for the integration and collaboration benefits. On the whole it seems to me it is worthwhile.

Assuming that the security of the system is fair overall, and keeps viruses and other malware out of your personal files, with only username and password as the only front-door security, that is still not very strong, since it takes about 25 seconds to crack, and there is no protection against that in place at present. During this year banks are pretty much implementing 2 factor authentication, so consumer expectation of security is going up, and having all your most vital data on-line deserves equal protection as your bank account, for social engineering is the most prominent method of identity theft. So in order to be able for people to responsibly move vital data into a hosted environment the company will have to provide something stronger in the long run.
Even considering that issue however, in many respects the average PC is arguably more leaky than this environment, since the vast majority are teaming with malware. Besides that however it would seem that in the long run any service of this kind would have to provide some form of SLA, as well as back-up and archiving provisions outside itself. I.e. I might want to create backups of my files year by year, or by some other parameter.

On the whole my conclusion has been that besides the rough edges, which the company has broadly acknowledged as part of the "pre-launch" "beta" experience, the fundamental concepts are hugely powerful, and offer great ease of use. The convenience will be addictive in my view.

[concerned]

Can anyone here point me to anything specific about how the back end is set up to protect critical data. That is really my main concern at this point. If there is nothing in place for this, then the whole point of COIL is really out the window. Part of security is not only avoiding viruses and local hardware failures but protecting and preserving data in the event of a server failure.

I asked Jim almost that exact question. His answer was nothing to read. He spouted some information about US Government Standards, and then said he didn't want to tell us what security was in place, because he didn't want anyone to break in. I guess it isn't that secure if it is easy to break in based on just knowing what standards are included.

[amazingplace]

I asked Jim almost that exact question. His answer was nothing to read. He spouted some information about US Government Standards, and then said he didn't want to tell us what security was in place, because he didn't want anyone to break in. I guess it isn't that secure if it is easy to break in based on just knowing what standards are included.


LOL --- Security by Obsurity.

[Ferret]

LOL --- Security by Obsurity.
I like that.....catchy ;)
I may steal it :p

Kanosis...."Security by Obscurity"

It goes right along with their marketing slogan

Kanosis "Pandemic Marketing" Have you been infected yet? COIL is the "Killer" App!

PS: I am getting bored over on the other kanosis thread waiting for some answers

[concerned]

LOL --- Security by Obsurity.

Did you quote him, because I think he actually said that.

Edit:

Here is where he said it.

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=34775&highlight=obscurity#post34775

[JimSouthworth]

Originally Posted by amazingplace
LOL --- Security by Obsurity.
If either of you had any REAL experience in security you would know that phrase is basic to the real concepts that are taught in all forms of corporate security, but especially Cyber-Security...... what your attack dog Ferret should read is the signature you just had on your last post

The voice of intelligence ... is drowned out by the roar of fear. It is ignored by the voice of desire. It is contradicted by the voice of shame. It is biased by hate and extinguished by anger. Most of all it is silenced by ignorance.
--Dr. Karl Menninger

Ferret’s belligerent ignorant insulting diatribe that was specifically intended to attack my personal and professional credibility, and then become the "meta data" for the web crawlers to consume for the search engines, AND also his dismissal of the many years of REAL professional experience I have had building real world wide networks like the one we are now continuously turning up at Kinosis, not like this retirement hobby he now has (if his picture is even slightly accurate). His actions have made it impossible for me to continue the productive dialog I thought I was having with your team (or should I say “loosely affiliated vigilantes”)…..

Our launch is now 3 weeks away, lots of new stuff is being readied and actually deployed….. new servers, new releases of and new software, additional resources and employees…. And when we turn it loose the BS here will still continue….. I choose to participate here when I have time and as an almost lowest priority now…. I continue to take phone calls, email, and personal contact with our customers/users, using my real name and real contact information…. And then I have an assistant read the forum to see how bad a few of you are distorting things from one of my PCs so I can stay focused on what counts.

Ferret, I bet you would be a lot more responsible if you all had to use your own real names and had your actual contact information public. It might be very entertaining to see the result of someone sniffing and identifying the intermediate traffic sources through the routers at Electric Lightwave whom host your Matrix Watch service in Salt Lake City at “Blue Host”.

Or your actual server “box34.bluehost.com” at IP Address: 70.96.188.34

Now assuming that one of you will delete the above content or at least obscure it…. That is the basis for “Security by Obscurity” and if not you potentially could see the damage such a simple compromise might cause if it isn't honored as basic tool of security.

[Webwatch]

Jim I really hoped this thread would stay a discussion of Coil and not go down the road of being an over aggresive one.

I haven't got time for a long post but I thought you of all people would keep this thread about coil. I know you have some issues with some posters here but I was hoping you could rise above them.

I will not be editing your post as by posting freely available server information you have shown a real lack of interest in our security which leads me to the concern that if a few over zealous posts could cause you to overreact in this way what effect could that have on Kanosis if you became disgruntled with the company and abused your access to a lot of private information on the Kanosis servers.

[concerned]

Jim is just doing what all great scammers do. They don't come talk about their great products, because they don't have one. Instead, when they can't win an argument based on (in this case) the technical aspects of the Kanosis/Coil product, they all resort to attacking the people. I've been here long enough to know this is going to happen. It has happened to me before, and it will happen to me again. I was waiting for him to come in here and attack, because he cannot answer my questions and provide uncontradictory statements. So, for everyone else, please don't come here asking Jim to stop attacking me or anyone else, because he is now on step 10 of a 12 step program that all scammers eventually go through.

[Arzel]

If either of you had any REAL experience in security you would know that phrase is basic to the real concepts that are taught in all forms of corporate security, but especially Cyber-Security...... what your attack dog Ferret should read is the signature you just had on your last post


Ferret’s belligerent ignorant insulting diatribe that was specifically intended to attack my personal and professional credibility, and then become the "meta data" for the web crawlers to consume for the search engines, AND also his dismissal of the many years of REAL professional experience I have had building real world wide networks like the one we are now continuously turning up at Kinosis, not like this retirement hobby he now has (if his picture is even slightly accurate). His actions have made it impossible for me to continue the productive dialog I thought I was having with your team (or should I say “loosely affiliated vigilantes”)…..

Our launch is now 3 weeks away, lots of new stuff is being readied and actually deployed….. new servers, new releases of and new software, additional resources and employees…. And when we turn it loose the BS here will still continue….. I choose to participate here when I have time and as an almost lowest priority now…. I continue to take phone calls, email, and personal contact with our customers/users, using my real name and real contact information…. And then I have an assistant read the forum to see how bad a few of you are distorting things from one of my PCs so I can stay focused on what counts.

Ferret, I bet you would be a lot more responsible if you all had to use your own real names and had your actual contact information public. It might be very entertaining to see the result of someone sniffing and identifying the intermediate traffic sources through the routers at Electric Lightwave whom host your Matrix Watch service in Salt Lake City at “Blue Host”.

Or your actual server “box34.bluehost.com” at IP Address: 70.96.188.34

Now assuming that one of you will delete the above content or at least obscure it…. That is the basis for “Security by Obscurity” and if not you potentially could see the damage such a simple compromise might cause if it isn't honored as basic tool of security.

Just to make sure it is never deleted.

[JimSouthworth]

Jim I really hoped this thread would stay a discussion of Coil and not go down the road of being an over aggresive one.

I haven't got time for a long post but I thought you of all people would keep this thread about coil. I know you have some issues with some posters here but I was hoping you could rise above them.

I will not be editing your post as by posting freely available server information you have shown a real lack of interest in our security which leads me to the concern that if a few over zealous posts could cause you to overreact in this way what effect could that have on Kanosis if you became disgruntled with the company and abused your access to a lot of private information on the Kanosis servers.

Webwatch,
I guess I finally have had my fill of your associates mocking me and be-littling the very basic concepts of information security that is the most IMPORTANT part of any public service product offering.... they are who took this thread down this track.... and yes the server information I posted is public but somewhat obscure.... the really good stuff is readily available believe it or not, but from me you won't see that exposed.... I was making a point and obviously it missed its mark with you.... and as for being overly HOSTILE ???

I have kept my anger and frustration to a manageable quantity compared to my associates whom have called me and messaged me about the abuse and insults..... the biggest being the starting of a brand new thread to showcase the attack on my personal credibility by Ferret titled "Jim's Statements Contradict themselves" that because of the way he intentionally show-cased it and presented it in HTTP format for the crawlers, it gets top billing on the search engines.... he knew exactly what he was doing and it was intended to damage as badly as he has tried to make it. So before admonishing me for diverting this thread, speak to the two clowns...... whom show their ignorance by not understanding the basic concept of "need to know".

[Arzel]

Webwatch,
I guess I finally have had my fill of your associates mocking me and be-littling the very basic concepts of information security that is the most IMPORTANT part of any public service product offering.... they are who took this thread down this track.... and yes the server information I posted is public but somewhat obscure.... the really good stuff is readily available believe it or not, but from me you won't see that exposed.... I was making a point and obviously it missed its mark with you.... and as for being overly HOSTILE ???

I have kept my anger and frustration to a manageable quantity compared to my associates whom have called me and messaged me about the abuse and insults..... the biggest being the starting of a brand new thread to showcase the attack on my personal credibility by Ferret titled "Jim's Statements Contradict themselves" that because of the way he intentionally show-cased it and presented it in HTTP format for the crawlers, it gets top billing on the search engines.... he knew exactly what he was doing and it was intended to damage as badly as he has tried to make it. So before admonishing me for diverting this thread, speak to the two clowns...... whom show their ignorance by not understanding the basic concept of "need to know".

Jim,

Perhaps if you had been more honest regarding the nature of COIL this discussion would not have gone down this path. You have stated several times that COIL is not beta, yet there is ample evidence that it is, including remarks from your own lead programmer that the program is not yet finished.

Aside from that you have the folks over a MMG fighting over downline and who should be able to recruit who, making it quite clear that they are only interested in making money from the pryamid, and seem to have little interest in any actual service Kanosis may provide.

I can only say that perhaps you should have considered the consequenses of becoming involved in a pryamid type scheme.

[Ferret]

lol I have kept my anger and frustration to a manageable quantity compared to my associates whom have called me and messaged me about the abuse and insults..... the biggest being the starting of a brand new thread to showcase the attack on my personal credibility by Ferret titled "Jim's Statements Contradict themselves" that because of the way he intentionally show-cased it and presented it in HTTP format for the crawlers, it gets top billing on the search engines.... he knew exactly what he was doing and it was intended to damage as badly as he has tried to make it. So before admonishing me for diverting this thread, speak to the two clowns...... whom show their ignorance by not understanding the basic concept of "need to know".
Pay more attention JimS
I didn't start that thread, "concerned" did
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3934

In fact I didn't make one post in that whole thread

PS: concerned is a Mod on MW
I don't know "concerned" and I have nothing to do with what he or anyone else on MW says
This is the internet.......wake up
Ferret has no affiliation with Matrixwatch, I am just a regular joe expressing my opinion
I am not MW's attack dog (I might be their attack ferret though :p )

This is my second suggestion for you to get those glasses ;)

[JimSouthworth]

Jim is just doing what all great scammers do. They don't come talk about their great products, because they don't have one. Instead, when they can't win an argument based on (in this case) the technical aspects of the Kanosis/Coil product, they all resort to attacking the people..Look in a mirror and you will see picked this fight I've been here long enough to know this is going to happen. It has happened to me before, and it will happen to me again...Did you ever have the concept of "self-fulfilling prophesy explained to you ??? you probably won't understand it because the words involve concepts not distortions I was waiting for him to come in here and attack, because he cannot answer my questions and provide uncontradictory statements..You weren't waiting for anything, you were and continue to bait people.... I refuse to take the bait on your BS of contradictions that NOBODY ELSE SEEMS TO SEE that has read your "PROOF", but becuase I have the guts and the character to ALWAYS identify myself I don't have to tolerate the defamation of my character or the liable that you and primarily Ferret have dished out, so have your laugh and then realize that you more than me have just made fools of yourselves. But I don't have to sit back and be passive and "honor" your distortions until you too also finally deal from a position of honesty. So, for everyone else, please don't come here asking Jim to stop attacking me or anyone else, because he is now on step 10 of a 12 step program that all scammers eventually go through. I don't need to attack you, I just go away and build the best new ASP service offering that I have had the chance in my long career to do.... and watch you squirm when your credibility goes down the tube..... did I just hear a "Flushing sound" ??

I have responded to technical question after technical question from anyone who asks.... after you and Ferret starting distorting and misquoting out of context extremely technical and complicated subject matter, I found it easier to not feed your need for controversy and insults and take those questions by phone and private email.... it doesn't buy me or our members anything except your entertainment....

[JimSouthworth]

lol
Pay more attention JimS
I didn't start that thread, "concerned" did
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3934

In fact I didn't make one post in that whole thread

PS: concerned is a Mod on MW
Ferret has no affiliation with Matrixwatch, I am just a regular joe expressing my opinion
I am not MW's attack dog (I might be their attack ferret though :p )

This is my second suggestion for you to get those glasses ;)

I don't believe I'm doing this, but I appologize for confusing you with your cohort.... or could it be your mentor??? I'm sorry for the confusion and giving you more credit than you deserve to have done the more sophisticated manipulation of the search engines that was really being done by "Concerned"

[Ferret]

after you and Ferret starting distorting and misquoting out of context extremely technical and complicated subject matter
JimS
You are full of it
I have rarely if ever addressed technical aspects of kanosis and COIL

I have been questioning the marketing hype of kanosis and all the sneaky
stuff kanosis is doing with their billing

Also pointing out the flaws of using a MATRIX SCHEME to market COIL

You have no answers for very valid questions

When are you going to answer the questions?
Do I have to repeat them for the Nth time?

[Arzel]

I have kept my anger and frustration to a manageable quantity compared to my associates whom have called me and messaged me about the abuse and insults..... the biggest being the starting of a brand new thread to showcase the attack on my personal credibility by Ferret titled "Jim's Statements Contradict themselves" that because of the way he intentionally show-cased it and presented it in HTTP format for the crawlers, it gets top billing on the search engines.... he knew exactly what he was doing and it was intended to damage as badly as he has tried to make it. So before admonishing me for diverting this thread, speak to the two clowns...... whom show their ignorance by not understanding the basic concept of "need to know".

I am a little confused as to how this would impact Jim. The thread wasn't title "Jim Southworth", so I don't know how any search engine would pick up him just because of that thread. If anything, people will find Jim here because he is using his name as his member ID, and even then it is in one word.

Anyone doing a search purely on Jim Southworth would have to do a lot of checking to actually find MW.

[Ferret]

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3980&page=5&pp=25
I think most Kanosis policies have being pushed by MatrixWatch

Kanosis never would have done this by themselves.......

how much more is COIL without being in the Matrix?
Can we get an answer please?
Why are you charging more for COIL when it is bought without being in the pyramid?
This is the sneakiest thing Kanosis has done yet

Who in their right mind would pay more and NOT be in the pyramid?
By their own admission there is a 70% marketing fee built into the $22 a month COIL subscription

They have fufilled the legal obligation but defeated it in the same move

Pure twisted genius, I think I will go back to calling them Scamosis

The PRE CHECKED OPTION still is for 3 months
That is another sneaky trick
Still waiting for someone to give me ONE good reason why anyone would want to pay more than a month at a time
There is an option to charge my credit card on a recurring monthly, quarterly, and/or yearly basis as selected above.

PS: I haven't forgotten about the 4.25% Credit Card processing fee to PAY

PS: I don't agree with some of what concerned says
However even if COIL was the next "Skype" etc everything I have been saying and questioning would still apply
Time will tell how good COIL is..........it is irrelevant to me right now

As I have said before, the only reason Kanosis is being discussed here is because they chose to market COIL with a Matrix Scheme

If kanosis hadn't done this, no one here would care how well COIL worked and the market place would decide if kanosis sinks or swims

[amazingplace]

to the vigilante ;) crew - please go hijack someone else's thread. Can we get back to the technical discussion here and continue the name calling on the "part 2" thread???

Jim -- Security by Obsurity is a well known phrase -- actually it is very well known amongst IT Security auditors who clobber companies who solely rely on obsurity and hoping that no one finds out what OS or hardware they are using as their primary method of security.

I do not know any business person who would trust their data to a company who cannot articulate why their systems are secure. If you trust AT&T or IBM or another company that provides managed hosting services with your data, they will provide you with detailed information about how they intend to keep your data safe. In fact, maybe it would be worthwhile for Kanosis to hire an independant firm to audit and certify the integrity of the systems.

Or maybe a statement on the website like this -- http://datacenter.cit.nih.gov/security/

One would think that haveing Kanosis hosted on Windows Servers would be all the more reason to address this issue with something more than "Trust us, It's Secure".

[JimSouthworth]

Jim,

Perhaps if you had been more honest regarding the nature of COIL this discussion would not have gone down this path. You have stated several times that COIL is not beta, yet there is ample evidence that it is, including remarks from your own lead programmer that the program is not yet finished.Arzel, I have always been honest and will continue to be absolutely honest and consistant.... there are commercial installed versions of Coil for which money has been paid for well over a year..... The Coil software at those law firms is not Beta it is Production as deployed today..... the first versions of the Kanosis product which is a service which includes Coil and several other software packages besides Coil has been in a Beta test for a while and is about to change its status to Production also.... the new PRODUCTION version of Kanosis which also includes an improved production version upgrade of Coil also will be released as part of our launch activities. The older production versions of Coil where it has been installed in the legal industry will not be touched initially and later because of logistical reasons relative to customer support, will be eventually upgraded also should the clients of that legal time accounting system so desire it to be upgraded. How can such an intelligent person not understand what I have just said for probably the 10th time. Coil is production, Kanosis is Beta, soon Kanosis will be production also and as the developer talked about there will be a new production version of Coil too...... did you ever consider that we might want to re-write large chunks of Coil to make is flow and interface with all the other software that is integrated into Kanosis as a service product ??? If customers are paying for two years for licenses for Coil it is not a Beta.

Aside from that you have the folks over a MMG fighting over downline and who should be able to recruit who, making it quite clear that they are only interested in making money from the pryamid, and seem to have little interest in any actual service Kanosis may provide.and there will be a vocal minority who will be always be uncontrollable, but we are not copping out..... Where we can, we have exerted all possible legal pressure, but right now our priority is to keep the sales and marketing clean and in accordence with US FTC and other international guidelines AND build our company. WE do not condone the activities you have highlighted on MMG Period !!
I can only say that perhaps you should have considered the consequenses of becoming involved in a pryamid type scheme. I did extensive research with my legal consul and law enforcement contacts. I know very well WHY we have chosen the matrix approach to legal MLM marketed service products. We need the financial incentives of legal sales commissions to facilitate the rapid explosive growth necessary to justify the economies of scale and revenue that large user bases can ingender into the company's business plan. Other service oriented business plans have failed because they couldn't grow quick enough to reach market saturation and maturity...... because Kannosis, my employer, decided long before I was hired, to use a legal acceleration technique to facilitate sales does not give you or anybody the right to attack me as a person or professional. For you to imply that, is also a cop-out on your part. Kanosis is not a SCAM or Pyramid scheme, it is an MLM business model that uses a "Forced Matrix" to provide commissions to those members who voluntarily wish to actively market our services. Those that don't sell will be allowed to quietly enjoy the use of the new services and secure closed community that Kanosis is building.

[ycchen]

to the vigilante ;) crew - please go hijack someone else's thread. Can we get back to the technical discussion here and continue the name calling on the "part 2" thread???

Jim -- Security by Obsurity is a well known phrase -- actually it is very well known amongst IT Security auditors who clobber companies who solely rely on obsurity and hoping that no one finds out what OS or hardware they are using as their primary method of security.

I do not know any business person who would trust their data to a company who cannot articulate why their systems are secure. If you trust AT&T or IBM or another company that provides managed hosting services with your data, they will provide you with detailed information about how they intend to keep your data safe. In fact, maybe it would be worthwhile for Kanosis to hire an independant firm to audit and certify the integrity of the systems.

Or maybe a statement on the website like this -- http://datacenter.cit.nih.gov/security/

One would think that haveing Kanosis hosted on Windows Servers would be all the more reason to address this issue with something more than "Trust us, It's Secure".amazingplace, thanks for keeping the thread on track. I hope kanosis executives could pay full attention to amazingplace's question. Thank you.

[JimSouthworth]

<SNIP> Jim -- Security by Obscurity is a well known phrase -- actually it is very well known amongst IT Security auditors who clobber companies who solely rely on obscurity and hoping that no one finds out what OS or hardware they are using as their primary method of security. And it isn't our primary source of security and it never was said that it is..... I just refuse to discuss on a public forum the exact nature of our security policies and procedures.... I will talk on the phone and in some cases by certain email and even then only in general terms, but it is stupid to waive a red flag in front of the hackers..... remember, Kanosis is an INTERNATIONAL company operating across INTERNATIONAL borders financially.... there are accounts and banks and money involved.... not even counting the personal information of our membership.... this requires us to use the same technologies and techniques used by large corporations and banks to protect this information. But most of all it requires us to use procedures and policies that are proven and absolute, NO EXCEPTIONS...... even for the development team.

We use technologies such as AES 256 bit encryption both as SSL and to create secure tunnels and envelopes. As a security person you will recognize that I won't discuss "key management" except in person and even then in the most general terms. Our system was designed to meet FIPS140-2, SOX, HIPAA, and the truly international EAL-2 going for level 4. However, we have provided for complete isolation between the architectures that protect "data-in-motion" and those used for "data-at-rest". Compromising any one element or authentication does not open anything else up. We use the security “layers” approach.

Our servers are not Windows based, user's clients maybe, but not the overall servers..... we use several variations of clean-room generated Linux.... this is the world I have grown up in the Washington DC area. If you have any other questions PLEASE email me and then call. But if you are a security person you should recognize I have just told you a lot without saying too much.

[Arzel]

Arzel, I have always been honest and will continue to be absolutely honest and consistant.... there are commercial installed versions of Coil for which money has been paid for well over a year..... The Coil software at those law firms is not Beta it is Production as deployed today..... the first versions of the Kanosis product which is a service which includes Coil and several other software packages besides Coil has been in a Beta test for a while and is about to change its status to Production also.... the new PRODUCTION version of Kanosis which also includes an improved production version upgrade of Coil also will be released as part of our launch activities. The older production versions of Coil where it has been installed in the legal industry will not be touched initially and later because of logistical reasons relative to customer support, will be eventually upgraded also should the clients of that legal time accounting system so desire it to be upgraded. How can such an intelligent person not understand what I have just said for probably the 10th time. Coil is production, Kanosis is Beta, soon Kanosis will be production also and as the developer talked about there will be a new production version of Coil too...... did you ever consider that we might want to re-write large chunks of Coil to make is flow and interface with all the other software that is integrated into Kanosis as a service product ??? If customers are paying for two years for licenses for Coil it is not a Beta.

Here is a letter from your lead programmer stating that COIL is not production, I also found a PDF file which clearly states that COIL is in Beta.

(I will try to upload the PDF later, it is pretty large and I was running into problems.)

I got an email from Steve Van Zutphen the other day, one of the co-founders of Kanosis, and I thought I'd share his response. I sent an email suggesting they add a videochat feature. I don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of videochat, especially with my family spread out all over the country, and it's great when it works, but it seems like there's a problem with either the audio or video on one side or the other every time. With the COIL platform, I was thinking Kanosis has a real opportunity to get it right. Something no one else has been able to do. It was exciting to get such a sincere and timely response! Here it is: "Hi Jon.... thanks for the input. Very good ideas. On May 1st, you will see the production version of COIL -- much sleeker, faster, etc. What you see now is extremely rough! We do have the perfect environment for video, parental control, etc. and those are projects that are on deck. We have 30 projects to complete before May 1st however, but in the next batch, at least one or two of those you mentioned should be included. The forums are going up on May 1st to capture all these great ideas from our members as well. Thanks for joining us, and be patient while we ramp this up -- corporate market version coming soon as well (you can probably tell that COIL was originally intended for that market!).Best Regards,Steve Van ZutphenProduct


and there will be a vocal minority who will be always be uncontrollable, but we are not copping out..... Where we can, we have exerted all possible legal pressure, but right now our priority is to keep the sales and marketing clean and in accordence with US FTC and other international guidelines AND build our company. WE do not condone the activities you have highlighted on MMG Period !!


That vocal minority claims to have almost 1,000 members in their sub-pryamid, which is about 1/5th of your total membership. While technically a minority, it certainly is a very large minority.


I did extensive research with my legal consul and law enforcement contacts. I know very well WHY we have chosen the matrix approach to legal MLM marketed service products. We need the financial incentives of legal sales commissions to facilitate the rapid explosive growth necessary to justify the economies of scale and revenue that large user bases can ingender into the company's business plan. Other service oriented business plans have failed because they couldn't grow quick enough to reach market saturation and maturity...... because Kannosis, my employer, decided long before I was hired, to use a legal acceleration technique to facilitate sales does not give you or anybody the right to attack me as a person or professional. For you to imply that, is also a cop-out on your part. Kanosis is not a SCAM or Pyramid scheme, it is an MLM business model that uses a "Forced Matrix" to provide commissions to those members who voluntarily wish to actively market our services. Those that don't sell will be allowed to quietly enjoy the use of the new services and secure closed community that Kanosis is building.

I know you believe in the Matrix model, but because the primary driving force of most of the members appears to be building their downline to drive the money-making aspect, it has all the markings of a pryamid scheme.

As long as it is promoted as a money-making scheme I will continue to call it a Pryamid scheme. You may call it attacking, but it is clearly being deployed as a pryamid money-making scheme.

[Arzel]

Kanosis Promotional Material

You can see the money making aspect is a primary aspect of the promotion.

[Ferret]

Originally Posted by JimSouthworth
I did extensive research with my legal consul and law enforcement contacts. I know very well WHY we have chosen the matrix approach to legal MLM marketed service products. We need the financial incentives of legal sales commissions to facilitate the rapid explosive growth necessary to justify the economies of scale and revenue that large user bases can ingender into the company's business plan. Other service oriented business plans have failed because they couldn't grow quick enough to reach market saturation and maturity...... because Kannosis, my employer, decided long before I was hired, to use a legal acceleration technique to facilitate sales does not give you or anybody the right to attack me as a person or professional. For you to imply that, is also a cop-out on your part. Kanosis is not a SCAM or Pyramid scheme, it is an MLM business model that uses a "Forced Matrix" to provide commissions to those members who voluntarily wish to actively market our services. Those that don't sell will be allowed to quietly enjoy the use of the new services and secure closed community that Kanosis is building.
Why are you charging more for COIL if you don't want to sell? (Be in the Matrix)

How much is COIL for those NOT selling?

The price is not on your website

[JimSouthworth]

Why are you charging more for COIL if you don't want to sell? (Be in the Matrix)
How much is COIL for those NOT selling?
This time next week, some differences of opinion will be locked down.... ask me again then.... I fly to Cyprus starting tomorrow to meet the rest of the team who are already there for our last Pre-Launch meetings..... anything prior to the meetings is speculation that is being revised to reflect refinements in our business plans from finance, legal, marketing, and technical in that order. Lots of new faces and new offices and new technology.... the perfect formula for positive change and re-definition.

You said earlier that MW is having an effect on our business plan, since I joined this forum two months ago I have said that was happening.... funny thing about that, huh??? and if you notice there are user forums going live in the next few weeks so that our membership can actively participate in the evolution of the Kanosis products and services, not to mention customer service and coporate policies that are customer driven.... WOW what a concept, maybe we really do want to create the business environment that a real live company with now functioning offices in Cyprus and Newport Beach, California so far, should be doing to grow our legitimate activities.

[Ferret]

Why aren't the founders bio's on the website like you said they would be weeks ago?

JimS, we know you would rather deal with technical aspects of COIL

Why hasn't another Kanosis representive come here to answer this type of question?
You promised this would happen a month? ago

When is Alistar Kildey showing up?

[amazingplace]

Hey Ferret -The title of the thread is Technical Discussion - Coil so the fact that Jim is focused on the technical aspects in this thread would be expected and understood. Go back to the Part 2 thread for this crap.

Jim, thank you for helping to clarify. Why can't the exact information that you provided here after weeks of requests be posted on the Kanosis website?

BTW - back end may not be Windows but it appears as if the front end webservers are in fact IIS 6.0 running on Windows Server 2003.

[concerned]

I do not know any business person who would trust their data to a company who cannot articulate why their systems are secure. If you trust AT&T or IBM or another company that provides managed hosting services with your data, they will provide you with detailed information about how they intend to keep your data safe. In fact, maybe it would be worthwhile for Kanosis to hire an independant firm to audit and certify the integrity of the systems.


This is a good point that Jim failed to address, and I have asked him before with no response. I guess it isn't important to make the CUSTOMERS feel at ease. Anyway, why can't a company that plans on storing information for users just tell the users how it will remain secure. It is beyond comprehension. You won't even tell people if there are firewalls in place. What a complete joke.

[concerned]

Kanosis Promotional Material

You can see the money making aspect is a primary aspect of the promotion.

Thanks Arzel

As you can plainly see, on page 14, it states:

You now will have the ability
to log into the Beta version of the Coil software, access the Member area, invite others via
email and build your personal web space.

I thought Jim said Coil was NOT in Beta form. Who knows.

[amazingplace]

Guys,

It seems to me that, like me, Jim is a techie and not a salesman.

If I could try to make an attempt at what the difference is between production and beta for the sake of this discussion....

The version of COIL available to Kanosis members is a beta version that is trying to incorporate many new features and functions. We shall see if they can deliver on the promises that are being promoted when the software goes from beta to release candidate in a few weeks.

There is a different version of "COIL" which is currently sold to law firms and such, which has been in production for some time. This version is what the beta version of Kanosis COIL is being built around.

[Webwatch]

Guys,

It seems to me that, like me, Jim is a techie and not a salesman.

If I could try to make an attempt at what the difference is between production and beta for the sake of this discussion....

The version of COIL available to Kanosis members is a beta version that is trying to incorporate many new features and functions. We shall see if they can deliver on the promises that are being promoted when the software goes from beta to release candidate in a few weeks.

There is a different version of "COIL" which is currently sold to law firms and such, which has been in production for some time. This version is what the beta version of Kanosis COIL is being built around.I would agree with this for the sake of moving forward.

So:
Coil Retail=Beta

Coil Corporate=Release Version

Now this may be privelidged information so I will understand if Jim can't answer the question as to which Law firms are using Coil.

I also remember seeing in some advertising litereture that NASA use a version of Coil is that actual Coil software or is it just Hype because NASA no doubt use an internal Intranet system similar to what coil professes to be for its end users.

[JimSouthworth]

This is a good point that Jim failed to address, and I have asked him before with no response. I guess it isn't important to make the CUSTOMERS feel at ease. Anyway, why can't a company that plans on storing information for users just tell the users how it will remain secure. It is beyond comprehension. You won't even tell people if there are firewalls in place. What a complete joke.Again you show both a bad attitude and a desire to jump the gun and accuse falsely.... I said I would discuss this off the public list with amazingplace and I did, but you didn't stop there... you also show your ingnorance of large scale public access sites.... You typically do NOT use a firewall in a high tranaction environment. Its like trying to put the volume of high pressure water from a fire-hydrant through a soda straw.... it doesn't work.... What you do is you use as we do all sorts of options on the routers and layer 4 and above smart switches, but most of all you use a "clean-room" system generation on each server and then the closing of ALL un-necessary ports and even those that are needed to operate you encrypt the traffic flow and use special applications tunnels as I have said we did before..... It is the only way you can scale to handle the transactional traffic profile we will see continuously from our Kanosis clients. But if you really understood security instead of just assuming you are a FKIA you would have known that .... OBTW... FKIA = F$@#ing Know It All..... you ought to have business cards made with that on it..... and then draw a red line through it

[concerned]

OBTW... FKIA = F$@#ing Know It All..... you ought to have business cards made with that on it..... and then draw a red line through it

Real professional here. This is your one and only warning. You were allowed to enter these forums to give information about Kanosis and Coil. When you cannot answer the questions, you start attacking people. Now you are resorting to foul language, which is against the AUP here. If you do it again, you will be banned, and you will not be allowed to post here again and defend your "company" anymore.

[salesman]

I took a look at AXISOFT website, as I understand they are the creator of the COIL software in question. It seems to me as a non-expert that they make PDA type software and camera software/units, but I did find that the only operating system on there site is the one designed for their PDA. They have a diagram of its design at this link : [URL="http://www.axisoft.com/Products/Mineos/Mineos.htm"]

It shuld be noted the features are close to the ones listed in the above forum posted by webwatch.

[Arzel]

I took a look at AXISOFT website, as I understand they are the creator of the COIL software in question. It seems to me as a non-expert that they make PDA type software and camera software/units, but I did find that the only operating system on there site is the one designed for their PDA. They have a diagram of its design at this link : [URL="http://www.axisoft.com/Products/Mineos/Mineos.htm"]

It shuld be noted the features are close to the ones listed in the above forum posted by webwatch.

Actually the company is Axiasoft. However, Axiasoft is a property management software company and doesn't have any information regarding COIL. This has been an issue of discussion because the makers of the software don't really seem to have a web pressence outside of Kanosis which claims to have purchased a licience from Axiasoft. While at the same time the lead architech of COIL is a founder of Kanosis, making the whole thing not make a whole lot of sense.