Club Freedom

[beeswax]

Being promoted heavily in Australia. Anyone know anything about this 'Revolving Matrix System' travel...........
Hope Erik Rasmussen's not involved!

[mercinary]

This is clearly a pyramid scam. Courtesy http://www.clubfreedom.biz/pages/cf.cgi/marlu2/plan.html


Task One - Register and Pay US$150.00 for your travel voucher

Task Two - Cycle through Feeder board to enter Main Board

Task Three - Enter Main Travel Board with US$1000.00

Task Four - Exit Travel Board with: US$8,000

US$3,500 deposited into your Private Virtual ecashwallet Account

US$3,500 Travel Certificate

US$1000 to re-enter Main Travel Board

Task Five - Re-Enter Main Travel Board with US$1000


Here is an explaination of how you cycle:


First Position: Reservation
You have Reserved your Vacation. All new entrants into the Travel Program begin at the Reservation Level. Your mission is to market Clubfreedom Travel to as many of your friends, family, and colleagues with this genuine travel opportunity as you can. This is to facilitate the expansion of your marketing team. When the eight reservation positions are filled on the board the team expands and the board splits and you advance to the Planner Position.

Second Position: Planner
Start Planning your Vacation. The achievements of your marketing team will determine the speed you advance. With the whole team working as a cooperative unit, you will rapidly advance to the Standby level. Through the marketing efforts of all travel Consultants on the Travel board, expansion takes place once more, and you advance again.

Third Position: Standby
You are now on Standby waiting with anticipation, only one more advance on your travel board to become a Global Traveller. As you continue marketing the Clubfreedom Travel Program, with the co-operation of your marketing team you will now advance to Traveller Position.

Fourth Position: Traveller
Bon Voyage! You have been successful at marketing our Travel Program and you have reached your Goal. Congratulations! You are now a Traveller. Your goal is to continue to motivate the people on your team to market the Clubfreedom Travel Program so they arrive at this destination also. When your team completes its expansion and the eight Reservation positions are filled on your Travel board. The board will split once more, Congratulations! You are away at a time of your choosing on your dream vacation of a life time!


BUT GET THIS! There is a feeder board that you have to traverse 8 levels of before you even get to the main board!

They claim that the "revolving matrix" ensures everyone wins:


Revolving system
There are 4 levels, everyone has equal opportunity to achieve success. No one remains at the top, as the people at the top cycle, they re-enter at the Reservation Level helping the other levels to move up the system. As the TOP people cycle out of a board, they re-enter the program to the closest position available on their original referrer's Travel Board. This ensures everyone's eventual success.


But referring to an early quote (from when you make it to the top):


Your goal is to continue to motivate the people on your team to market the Clubfreedom Travel Program so they arrive at this destination also.


And that is the key! The thing is, it is a pyramid and it requires an exponential number of people to sign up in order for people to continue cycling! Mathematically impossible....even if ever single person on the earth signed up, a GIANT percentage would never make it to the top.

Here is how the math really works...

1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total = $150.
2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House total = $450
3. Now you have to wait for the OTHER 7 people at the bottom of the feeder in step 1 to recruit 2 people EACH. Assuming that happens (7 x 2 x $150 = $2100), House total = $2550.
4. All eight of you move to step 2. The board splits, so 4 of you stay on one board. You all need to then recruit 2 more people EACH! Assuming this happens (4 x 2 x $150 = $1200), House total = $3750.
5. All four of you move to step 3. The board splits, so 2 of you stay on one board. You two need to recruit 2 more people EACH! Assuming this happens, (2 x 2 x $150 = $600), House total = $4350.
6. Now you've made it to to top of the feeder. The board splits so just you stay on the board. Now you have to recruit 2 more people ($300). House total = $4650.00

Now, for a second ignore all this splitting stuff! [u]The bottom line is that in order to pay-off all 8 original people....[/]

Step 1 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 2 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 3 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 4 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people

8 x 2 x 4 = 64 PLUS the original 8 signups, for a total of 72 signups in order for the original 8 people to even get to the main travel board!!!!

72 x $150 = $10,800 House Total

And again, this only gets you onto the traveler board. Now let's assume the original 8 people all ake it to the "Reservation" part of the travel board first. In order for all of you to climb the traveler board (to the top), you would have to come up with:

Reservation Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Planner Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Standby Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Traveller Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people

8 x 2 x 4 = 64

64 * 150 = $9600

$9600 PLUS the original $10,800 the house made from you all on the feeder board, gives us a grand total of $20,400 for all 8 people to completely cycle out of the program. A grand total of 136 new people had to be brought into the matrix in order to cycle just eight people. And what do each of these eight people get? A travel certificate for $3500...which smells VERY fishy. 8 x $3500 = $28000, which is more than the matrix brought in. Travel vouchers for this much are often GIVEN away by companies who are selling timeshares. I'm guessing that this company is paying VERY LITTLE (IF ANYTHING) for these $3500 vouchers.

What's the bottom line? if you join this scam, you alone need to recruit 16 people to join behind you. On top of that, the other people on the boards need to fullfill their obligation too! This is an outright scam and should be reported to the authorities as such!!!!!!

-Merc

[beeswax]

Thanks a million!
Such a logical and precise summary.
Not ONE of the questions you've raised/answered were handled in this fashion by my potential 'sponsor'

[mercinary]

beeswax:

That's why we are here! I encourage you to get your sponser to come read the above post!!!

-Merc

[mercinary]

FYI:

My analysis of this scheme was a little off. You can find an update here:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?p=45091#postid45091

Note that there is still no question in my mind that this is a scam...

-Merc

[traveller]

Here is how the math really works...

1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total = $150.



This statement is correct.



2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House total = $450



This statement is correct.



3. Now you have to wait for the OTHER 7 people at the bottom of the feeder in step 1 to recruit 2 people EACH. Assuming that happens (7 x 2 x $150 = $2100), House total = $2550.



This statement is incorrect.

Let me explain.

It is true that you need to wait until more ppl are introduced into the sytem for the matrix to push you to the next level, however they can come from any person above you in the system.

If someone has joined and has not introduced 2 ppl to qualify then they will remain at the top of the 15 positional matrix.

If this is the case then the person if pos 2 will leap frog the person in pos 1 if they have introduced 2 ppl.

The term feeder board means that ppl are being fed into the board which pushes you to the top of the matrix. If there are ppl at the top of the matrix who have not introduced 2 ppl then you leap frog thier pos.

In some examples you can go from 3 from the top straight to the main board if the top 2 ppl havent introduced two ppl.

So you only need to introduce 2 ppl... period. It is good if you help your two ppl introduce 2 because this is the law of duplication. Teach those you introduce how to do the same.

If for some reason they dont introduce any ppl, this in no way prevents you from moving up the board.
[/QUOTE]





4. All eight of you move to step 2. The board splits, so 4 of you stay on one board. You all need to then recruit 2 more people EACH! Assuming this happens (4 x 2 x $150 = $1200), House total = $3750.



Again this is incorrect, however yes the board splits 3 time before you are at the top of the matrix you are in.


5. All four of you move to step 3. The board splits, so 2 of you stay on one board. You two need to recruit 2 more people EACH! Assuming this happens, (2 x 2 x $150 = $600), House total = $4350.
6. Now you've made it to to top of the feeder. The board splits so just you stay on the board. Now you have to recruit 2 more people ($300). House total = $4650.00

Now, for a second ignore all this splitting stuff! [u]The bottom line is that in order to pay-off all 8 original people....[/]

Step 1 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 2 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 3 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
Step 4 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people



Let me explain this correctly.

Step 1 if you are talking about all 8 ppl to go to the main board then yes all 8 need to introduce 2, everyone needs to qualify, there is no free lunch.

Step 2 As the ppl who have been introduced enter the system introduce others, the original 8 are pushed along the board regardless if these 2nd gen ppl introduce only 1 or 2 ppl.

Remember this is not a binary, the positions in the matrix fill from left to right regarless of introduction.

Introduction only has to do with qualification - thats it, it has nothing to do with tree structure.

Once the 15 pos matrix is full, once the person at the top has introduced 2 it splits into two with pos 2 and 3 becoming the top of the two new boards.

Hence it starts again.

[/QUOTE]



What's the bottom line? if you join this scam, you alone need to recruit 16 people to join behind you. On top of that, the other people on the boards need to fullfill their obligation too! This is an outright scam and should be reported to the authorities as such!!!!!!

-Merc


Bollocks, you only need to introduce 2, thats it.

Introduce two and teach those whom you have introduced to do the same.

Some will, probably most wont, but it does not stop the flow of the board who introduces.

Again remember, this is not unilevel, it is not stairstep, it is not binary, tree placement has nothing to do with introductions.

[Webwatch]

Hello Traveller and welcome to Matrixwatch.

Did you miss post #5 above, this scheme is also being discussed here:
http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/sh...91#postid45091

I gather from the last part of your post this program also includes some sort of guaranteed spillover system now that certainley is a load of testicles, but does help sucker people in who aren't comfortable with building downlines.

[traveller]

I gather from the last part of your post this program also includes some sort of guaranteed spillover system now that certainley is a load of testicles, but does help sucker people in who aren't comfortable with building downlines.

hehehehe, that is true, i do not deny that at all.

The truth is the current system only works with ppl joining and purchasing a travel voucher. Just like any business.

Please refer to the post below about a court ruling in australia.


Full Federal Court clarifies elements of a pyramid scheme—Australian Communications Network Pty Ltd v Australian Competition and Consumer Commission [2005] FCAFC 221

Summary

The Full Federal Court (comprising of Justices Heerey, Merkel and Siopis) recently unanimously upheld an appeal from Australian Communications Network (ACN) in relation to an earlier finding that ACN had participated in a pyramid selling scheme in contravention of section 65AAC(1) of the TPA.2 In doing so, the Full Court confirmed that the TPA provisions prohibiting pyramid schemes would not cover multi-level marketing schemes that offered rewards to participants based on genuine sales of goods or services, as distinct from those that offered rewards substantially as an attempt to gain new participants to the pyramid scheme.

Finding the correct definition of a pyramid scheme

Much of the debate in the Full Court centred on the correct interpretation of section 65AAD(1). This section defines a pyramid selling scheme as a scheme which requires that new entrants make 'participation payments' to other participants upon entering the scheme, and that 'the participation payments are entirely or substantially induced by the prospect held out to new participants that they will be entitled to a payment (a "recruitment payment") in relation to the introduction to the scheme of further payments'.

In the original decision of the Federal Court, Justice Selway had found that a ‘recruitment payment’ to a new participant could cover any benefit received in consequence of the introduction of further new participants, even if such benefits were paid as a result of the subsequent activities of these new participants rather than specifically for their introduction. Thus, in this case, while participants in the ACN scheme only received bonuses when their recruited participants introduced new customers to the business, this was held as irrelevant, given that the benefit obtained was still a consequence of the recruitment of new participants.

However, the Full Court objected to this reasoning, and held that the ACN scheme was not a pyramid selling scheme. To attract liability under section 65AAD(1), there must be a 'relevant, sufficient or material connection or relationship' between the recruitment payment and the introduction of further participants to the scheme, rather than a mere causal connection. This conclusion was strengthened by various journal articles from the United States and Australia, which highlighted that true pyramid schemes attempt to generate the majority of their income from recruitment rather than the selling of products, and that the law does not object to multi-level selling where its main purpose is to sell products to consumers without deception of those recruited under the scheme.

Indeed, even former ACCC Chairman Allan Fels had noted a difference in 2002 between 'acceptable' marketing schemes that rewarded their participants for the sale of genuine products, and schemes that rewarded participants for recruitment of new participants. Thus, in this case, as the recruitment payments given to participants in the ACN scheme were contingent on both the recruitment of new participants and the ability of these new participants to sell ACN’s genuine and commercially competitive services to new customers, no pyramid scheme had been established.

Implications of the case

The Full Court’s decision is likely to come as a relief to businesses engaging in multilevel marketing schemes, who would have been concerned at the possible implications of Justice Selway’s wider test of causal connection. The recent decision has thus clarified and limited the scope of section 65AAD(1).

The ACCC has said that it is considering the judgment to decide if an application for special leave to appeal to the High Court is appropriate. At this time of writing no special leave application has been filed.



So exactly what are the "commercially competitive services to new customers" that Club Freedom offers?

Redeemable Travel Certificates underwritten by the one of the worlds largest Travel Agencies (RCI) and providers of Time Share accomodation

And what about the Recruitment Payments?

These are given to participants and are contingent on both the recruitment of new participants AND the ability of these new participants to sell Club Freedom's genuine and commercially competitive services to new customers.

As such no pyramid scheme (or Ponzi) can be established.

Interesting also to see the first Club Freedom commercial on Foxtel Cable TV last nite

I admit, sure just like a traditional sales team, if you dont sell, you dont get paid, why should you?

However, unless the company brings in resaleable items for existing members to purchase it will saturate and stall.

I merely wanted to point out the errors in mercs statement, thats all :)

Regards

Traveller

[Webwatch]

Thanks Traveller,

To attract liability under section 65AAD(1), there must be a 'relevant, sufficient or material connection or relationship' between the recruitment payment and the introduction of further participants to the scheme, rather than a mere causal connection. This conclusion was strengthened by various journal articles from the United States and Australia, which highlighted that true pyramid schemes attempt to generate the majority of their income from recruitment rather than the selling of products, and that the law does not object to multi-level selling where its main purpose is to sell products to consumers without deception of those recruited under the scheme.

So can a potential customer buy a $150 holiday voucher without becoming part of the Clubfreedom Matrix and is the voucher worth $150 or can similar be obtained free of charge from sites such as:
http://www.myholidayresorts.com/english.asp

Also would the voucher be of merchantable value without the commision structure.

Does the free holiday voucher include flights as well or do these have to be paid for.

[mercinary]

Traveller:

Help me build an accurate analysis? You've already said that steps 1 & 2 are correct as stated:


1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total = $150.
2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House total = $450


I want to re-write the other steps to ensure accuracy...let's work on step 3 first.

3. Now you have to wait for other people in the feeder to recruit 8? more people. Assuming that happens (8 x $150 = $1200), House total = $1650.

Is 8 the right number here?

-Merc

[traveller]

Hi Merc,

When you join you can appear anywhere on the bottom level of 8 positions, lets assume for this exercise that you land in the far left pos leaving 7 more to come in before the board splits.

This means if you join, you need to introduce 2 as previously established, dependeding on your timing could place these ppl next to you on the bottom row, or on the bottom row later on after the board has split - doesnt really matter.

Lets say you introduce them right after you join to make it simple.

This means 5 more ppl need to join before the board splits (remember these 5 can be introduced by you, your introductions or anyone above).

So yourself + 7 before the board splits and you appear to be on level 3 of the matrix.

From this point another 8 ppl need to be introduced for the board to be split again. (remember these 8 can be introduced by you, your introductions or anyone above).

At this point you are now on level 2 of the matrix and again another 8 ppl need to be introduced for the board to be split again. (remember these 8 can be introduced by you, your introductions or anyone above).

At this point when the board splits 3 times since you join, you are now at the top of your own matrix, and again another 8 ppl need to be introduced for you to enter the main board.

So my math tells me 7 + 8 + 8 + 8 = 31 ppl need to be introduced into the system after you (including 2 of your own) for you to go to the next board.

Hope this helps :)

And webwatch the following is a product suite of what you get for you investment.

Free Membership to RCI. . . this normally costs US$85.00 per year.


Access to fantastic savings on vacation deals sent directly to your mail box on a regular basis.


Your very own personal member's area for bookings and managing your holiday arrangements. You also have your own private accounting page where you can track your travel credits.


When you qualify and receive your US$3,500 Travel Certificate, Clubfreedom will transfer US$3,500 to your RCI trust account. This is then converted to 3500 travel credits which you can draw down from, as and when needed.

For example:
You may want to take a flight from city to city or country to country or a vacation on a cruise ship, all you have to do is contact RCI friendly staff via a toll free number or from your Clubfreedom travel members area online to book your trip and the cost is debited from your credits.


A choice of three Travel Vouchers valued at AU$599, AU$699, and AU$899

This is all you pay, which entitles you and your family or friends to a 7 day stay at any one of over 3,500 RCI resorts around the globe, this alone represents a discount saving of between $200 and $2000!

[mercinary]

Ahhh...this makes things much more clear.

So 31 people to get to the main board. How many signups are required (to cycle) once you make it to the main board?

-Merc

[traveller]

When you qualify and enter the main board (your introducers travel board) you appear in the first pos of the 4th level, just as my example previously.

As each person from the feeder boards qualify and enter the main board you are pushed to the next position.

So 15 ppl need to either (qualify and enter the main board or re-enter the main board after being paid) for you to be pushed up and out of the matrix to be placed at the beginning again from where you started on the main board.

The feeder boards are what make the travel board cycle, so everyone needs to be encouraged to introduce 2 ppl to purchase the product suite for the system to work.

Just like any sales system, if no one in the team is selling, then no one makes money.

Its like starting of as a sales rep doing the hard yards, when you make it to the travel board, you become like a sales manager, you no longer need to sell, but motivate your "sales team" to sell and join you. - However if you continue to sell and introduce, it only speeds up the cycle process of the main travel board.

[mercinary]

OK, so this is slightly more complicated then I thought. I'm going to work out the math offline....be back shortly.

-Merc

[traveller]

Ok, my quick calc tells me that if it takes 31 product suite sales for you to get to the main board which contains 15 pos, then there are some Edit*151* product suite sales of travel vouchers for the individual to cycle from beginning, then another Edit *120* product suite sales of travel vouchers to complete each subsequent cycle.

At first glance it seems a lot, but remember the power of multipilcation and duplication of teaching the two ppl that you introduce to do the same thing and teach the two ppl they introduce to teach thier two how to do it.

Some ppl will introduce many, some will not introduce and sell no travel vouchers.

Its all up to the individual.

Oh ye let me add also,

First time you cycle you get a travel voucher worth $3500 US, each subsequent cycle you get $3500 US deposited into a bank account + a RCI travel voucher worth $3500 which can be used on heavily discounted travel anywhere in the world.

[mercinary]

OK, I'm back. Below is my attempt at figuring this out. I still think I'm goofed up as far as the part where the person who cycles enters the main board again. Could you get me straightened out?

-Merc


1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total = $150.
2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House total = $450
3. You now wait for 7 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 2". 7 x $150 = $1050. House Total = $1500
4. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 3". 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $2700
5. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 4". 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $3900
6. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to the main table. 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $5100

7 + 8 + 8 + 8 = 31 people needed to sign-up to make it to the main board.

Now you are on the main board. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the main board is fully populated when you get there.

7. The top person on the main board cycles when you enter the board. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P15 --> P14).
8. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P14 --> P13)
9. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P13 --> P12).
10. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P12 --> P11)
11. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P11 --> P10).
12. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P10 --> P9)
13. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P9 --> P8).
14. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P8 --> P7)
15. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P7 --> P6).
16. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P6 --> P5)
17. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P5 --> P4).
18. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P4 --> P3)
19. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you up one position (P3 --> P2).
20. 8 People have to sign-up (on the feeder board) to push the top feeder person up to the main board and at the same time you one position higher. (P2 --> P1)
21. The above action cycles the top person. He/she gets added to the main board behind you, pushing you (you cycle????)

[traveller]

Yes it is tricky my first calc was wrong, but you look to be on track, at least you understand how the system cycles now.

To be honest i will have to get back to you wether the top person pushes you one, this would mean for each new person you would move twice.

I will certainly look into it though.

Hope this has helped.

- Traveller

[mercinary]

To be honest i will have to get back to you wether the top person pushes you one, this would mean for each new person you would move twice.


Yeah...that part got me all confused. Let me know what you find out ASAP. I want to complete this analysis.

-Merc

[traveller]

Not a problem, may take me a day or so - need to get in touch with the company.

Its the middle of the night here at the moment.

- Traveller

[mercinary]

For the moment, I'm going to ignore the whole part where the cycled person re-enters the matrix.

Assume that 15 people need to enter the main board from the feeder board. Each of those 15 people mean 8 people joined the feeder per person.

15 * 8 = 120 people needed to get you from the first spot in the main board, to cycling. Add that to the original 31 needed to climb the feeder board, and you get 131 people per cycle. Your distribution looks something like the attached picture. I've calculated what it takes to cycle 1000 people off. It comes out to 131,000 signups. This linear growth continues...

Clearly IMPOSSIBLE for all people to cycle....even if every single person in the world signed up, the great majority of people will never cycle.

-Merc

[mercinary]

Here is another disturbing chart, showing profit that club freedom owners make as each person cycles. It uses the same scale, only calculating the first 1000 cycles.

I calculated it as follows:

1: I made an assumption that the $150 vouchers they give out when you join are really free to them. I can go get one on eBay myself for a couple of pennies, so I have to assume they have a similar deal.

2: I then take the (# sign-ups * $150) - $3500 payout.

-Merc

[Webwatch]

After further investigations it seems that the touted $85 membership of RCI included is not the case.

The RCI representative I have spoken to initially knew nothing of Club Freedom and after further enquires they have confirmed that they still know nothing about club freedom.

Don't take my word for it though call your local RCI office yourself before investing, just basic common sense really.

Of course Common sense is every Pyramid Schemes worst enemy so Club Freedom will tell you not to do this of course-Ignore them its your money you have a right to enquire if what you a purchasing is of any value whatsoever.

RCI customer service will be more than happy to help (thats what they are there for) and if you don't want to call simply send them an e-mail.
http://www.rci.com/RCIW/RCIW_index?body=RCIW_contactUs

[beeswax]

Thought yo might be interested in the last post at: http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html

[Webwatch]

Thanks Beeswax:
I now ask that all members please DO NOT contact RCI offices anywhere round the globe, but to be patient as RCI Pacific are setting up a new administration section and developing a special website just for our members. They need a little time to train their staff and implement systems to handle and deliver our members special travel requirements.which means don't contact RCI because you will find out we aren't really involved with them, then some staff training BS to try and back this up.
Also we will be retracting a statement that is on the website indicating that our members will become RCI members…not so (My mistake re interpretation at the meeting last week) It’s a legal point! However, that doesn’t alter our great business relationship with RCI as we are a global marketing force promoting their fantastic product range! In other words RCI have found out what we are up to and don't like it plus we lied to start with. Its a legal point alright I wonder if RCI threatened action if the statement wasn't removed.

[traveller]

In a forum like this its dissapointing to see people jump to conlcusions and make claims about situations they have no knowledge about.

I would have thought that evidence would prevail rather than people perceiving situations to support thier own opinions.

Webwatch, you quote two passages, yet fail to quote the final paragraph of the quote by chrisann who is a mod at a forum classed as the official club freedom forum.

So in a few days when we get access to the RCI portal for Clubfreedom we will know for sure the
full range of travel products. Don't forget that Clubfreedom launched on the 1st of September so have
a litle patience it's natural for companies at this early stage no to be 100% ready.


The $150 is a continuing discount Voucher off any RCI Vacation Vouchers purchased where the access to purchase these vouchers normally costs an average of $85.00 per year

A choice of three types of Vacation Vouchers. . . $599, $699 or $899
(Optional) If you choose to purchase any of these already great valued Vouchers, which entitles you and your family or friends to a 7 day stay at any one of over 1400 resorts around the globe, RCI will give a minimum additional $150 discount off the above prices. This alone represents a discount saving of between $400 and $2000!

[Webwatch]

In a forum like this its dissapointing to see people jump to conlcusions and make claims about situations they have no knowledge about.

I would have thought that evidence would prevail rather than people perceiving situations to support thier own opinions.

Webwatch, you quote two passages, yet fail to quote the final paragraph of the quote by chrisann who is a mod at a forum classed as the official club freedom forum.
The problem is that the forum moderator who made this statement about not contacting RCI has a vested interest in building a downline and recruiting new members to this scheme.

I merely pointed out common sense, in that everyone should check for themselves with RCI and not take Club Freedom's or some Forum moderators word for it.

Do you really think anyone should believe what club freedom tells them after they have already by their own admission stated an RCI membership is part of the voucher cost when in fact it isn't.

[beeswax]

Traveller........... why worry???

There are other great things in life!

I currently have a business that gives me the things I need in life for my family. YES, I am looking for something else that may give me residual/passive income...................... but I would NEVER state that because I was in start-up mode that I wasn't fully prepared!

Why Start Up?

Because I needed the money!!!!!

[mercinary]

Traveller:

Good to see that you are back. Did you get the information you were seeking (see post #19 above). I'm still waiting to hear back from you.

-Merc

[raulitravel]

I joined Clubfreedom and now regret it. I got excited when many associates of mine joined it in droves. So far I have not been able to interest anyone to recruit under me and sometimes people are offended or say its a pyramid scam which it really is. The prospect of wealth made my join which is how most scams suck people in I guess. Clubfreedom tell me that unless I recruit at least one person I cannot get a corporate freebie which is my only hope to advance in the board so like a bad stain on a wall im stuck in the feeder board on the second level forever and Clubfreedom refuse to give me a refund. My sponsor got me without effort, my 'friend' who told me about it suggested I sign under that sponsor and my sponsors sponsor has made another username and sponsored himself under himself (sorry for the repetition) to get the two to 'qualify' at the top of the feeder board which he has done. I calculated that at any time less than 2% of participants can ever graduate from the main board to get their holiday and cash since it takes 53.333 people at US$150 each to make US$8000. Also I do not understand that 8xUS$150="US$1000" which is what you apparently get when you qualify in the feeder board at the top before entering the main board. 8xUS$150=US$1200 so wots the deal with the missing US$200? The company claims the only time they make money is when people exit the main board as 'traveller' and redeem their US$8000 vouchers and cash into US$6000 and the company takes US$2000 at 'wholesale' price. So this new 'venture' I believe is going to sting 98% of all its participants since they are providing funds to 2% of the participants. Are my maths right or am I failing to understand something here? One associate said pyramid schemes are banned by governments because it stops people getting wealthy which the government does not want since 'who will stock the shelves at the supermarket and serve us at mac donalds' if everyone is wealthy and goes on to say that traditional pyramid schemes where you send ten bucks off to someone arent that bad, 'cos all your losing is $10' well in this case again he said in regards to Clubfreedom 'its only US$165' as a university student I really cannot absorb such a loss. But hey maybe one in a million chance I will get my two recruits and get into the main board and get US$8000 'again and again and again and again and again' etc. I made a website for this **Refferal Link Removed. PM Raulitravel if you want it** but im gonna revamp it into an anti-clubfreedom website if i dont manage to recruit two others under me.

Thanks for your time,
Rauli

[mercinary]

Raulitravel:

First off, welcome to Matrixwatch. I wish it was under better circumstances. As far as financials for clubfreedom, we don't know how much they have to pay for these vouchers. They are claiming that they are working with RCI, which would mean that they possibly pay around $85 for the $150 voucher. I don't have a lot of time to get into gory details, but here is the general idea how pyramid schemes make money:

1. Offer a "prize" for entering the matrix. This is usually is something that costs significantly less then the entry fee into the matrix.
2. The company puts a piece of the profit (75% for example) into the pool to pay anyone who happens to cycle. The rest, they pocket. I did some analysis of this in post 21 (see above). Again...we don't know all the details about clubfreedom, so we are making assumptions based on our best knowledge.

Finally, I just want to point something out. You state:


I joined Clubfreedom and now regret it.


But then you state:

...if i dont manage to recruit two others under me.


While I understand your frustration with losing money, do you REALLY want to be the that "friend" that screws over someone else?? The only way to stop a pyramid scheme is to stop buying into it. You were not one of the first investors, so you will likely not cycle. Please, don't try to drag someone else into the scheme just so you can try to get to the top. If you had it to do all over again, wouldn't you wish that your "friend" had taken this exact advice???

If you really want justice, file an official complaint against this company. We do not know where this site is based out of, but your best would be to contact your state/federal authorities. In the U.S. this is the Attorney General's Office.

Also, posting an anti-club freedom webpage is a great idea. This (like Matrixwatch) will show up in internet searches and will prevent more people from becoming victims. Be careful in what you post on your page, as you do not want to slander the company. Stick to the known facts, tell your story, and suggest that people file complaints against this company.

-Merc

[Webwatch]

One associate said pyramid schemes are banned by governments because it stops people getting wealthy which the government does not want since 'who will stock the shelves at the supermarket and serve us at mac donalds'
Pyramid schemes are full of these shills who like you to think their doing you a favour by getting you involved-of course its all BS and just a ruse for these parasites to get your money.

[Webwatch]

In a forum like this its dissapointing to see people jump to conlcusions and make claims about situations they have no knowledge about.
Sorry forgot this bit.
If you mean jumping to conclusions based on what an RCI rep told me and the evidence of the backtracking by club freedom then I'm guilty as charged.

I also stated that my word alone should not be enough and each prospective victim/member of this scheme should check for themeselves. Pretty good advice even by my standards, don't you think.

Regarding Pyramid Schemes-I know one when I see one and thats all club freedom is-just my opinion of course which is why I reccomend any potential member do their own research.

[raulitravel]

One lie by Clubfreedom is that the US$165 fee to sign up with them includes membership with RCI worth $85, then I get an email from Clubfreedom saying that this was a misunderstanding and that you do not get membership with RCI. I think we should contact RCI and tell them their logo is on their (clubfreedom's) homepages and if RCI don't have a genuine partnership with Clubfreedom RCI will not like what is an infringment of copyright and abuse of a trademark. I will email RCI and mention this now. Even if Clubfreedom obtained travel for members through RCI it would be no big deal, they are just referring members to RCI to book the few members that graduate from the top of the pyramid.

And yes Mercinary you are right :yes: I should avoid trying to recover my 'investment' and just keep baggin Clubfreeloaders as I call them now.

Thanks,
Rauli

[raulitravel]

Hi peoples. I just emailed RCI about clubfreedom on whether they approve of the using of their logo on clubfreedoms website. I will paste the entire message here. Below is first their reply and below that is my email and the only text that has been changed is my personal details entered into the contact form on RCI's website. Forum administrator may want to omit the website URL that shows the RCI Logo on the Clubfreeloaders (what I call Clubfreedom) website.

"Hello,

Thank you for your e-mail.

We are not familiar with this company. We will pass this information to our legal department. We regret any confusion this may have caused.

Thank you for your interest in RCI.

Kind regards,

Molly Walkup
Customer Communications Specialist
RCI North America

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Name: Rauli Kumpulainen
Email: *********
Address: ********
Address2: *******
City: Brisbane
State/Province: QLD
PostalCode: ****
Member ID: -

Comments:
Dear RCI,

I would like to report what could be called an abuse and infringment of
copyright of your corporate logo. I signed up foolishly with what
really
is a pyramid scam going by the name of Clubfreedom. If you look at
www.clubfreedom.biz/raulitravel you will find your company logo with the

words 'powered by RCI'. When I signed up Clubfreedom advertised the
signup registration fee into their 'revolving matrix' of US$165 includes

membership with RCI valued at US$85 but now they withdrew this
statement
which is akin to false advertising. Can you confirm or deny a
partnership and approval of Clubfreedoms activities?

Thank you,
Rauli"

[Skeptik]

Rauli,

I'd really like you to post a reply if Molly writes back to you with the outcome of what the legal department says.

I know RCI is a worldwide company, and if Molly is in the USA, she may not be familiar with Club Freedom as they are based in AUS/ and Hong Kong. Posting an RCI logo on the site is a ballsy move if they are not really associated.

Good, or bad, I think it would be nice to hear some follow up.

[beeswax]

I think its interesting that there's been nothing new here since September 20!!!
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html

[jetlagger]

After further investigations it seems that the touted $85 membership of RCI included is not the case.

The RCI representative I have spoken to initially knew nothing of Club Freedom and after further enquires they have confirmed that they still know nothing about club freedom.

Don't take my word for it though call your local RCI office yourself before investing, just basic common sense really.

Of course Common sense is every Pyramid Schemes worst enemy so Club Freedom will tell you not to do this of course-Ignore them its your money you have a right to enquire if what you a purchasing is of any value whatsoever.

RCI customer service will be more than happy to help (thats what they are there for) and if you don't want to call simply send them an e-mail.
http://www.rci.com/RCIW/RCIW_index?body=RCIW_contactUs




I just called RCI in Australia to find out about club freedom and the lady said that she has heard about it however it has not been officially launched here however RCI is behind it.

[Skeptik]

I just called RCI in Australia to find out about club freedom and the lady said that she has heard about it however it has not been officially launched here however RCI is behind it.

I'm not sure what you mean...

So RCI is actually affiliated with Clubfreedom in some way, but they haven't actually launched the travel site yet?

If that is the case, it would make Club Freedom look a whole lot more reputable. Why would a 30+ year old worldwide travel business combine with a scam??!!!

If not....???

[jetlagger]

Well, I looked up at the RCI website and called the number (07 5588 9999) and asked them if they knew of Clubfreedom. They said they know of the club freedom however have not been officially released yet thus they are not fully briefed of it. best bet, give them a call and see what they say to you.

[Skeptik]

Aaahh Now I Gotcha!

Thanks Jetlagger.

[Arzel]

Do they know of Club Freedom because there has been inquiry regarding them because of this whole situation, or is it because they are actually working with them?

It would seem they have heard of them because Club Freedom claims to be working with them.

[Webwatch]

I'm sure RCI will have heard of Club Freedom by now.
As Jetlagger reiterates Its still up to every individual to check for themselves.

This is interesting though.
Due Diligence
For those wanting to do their due diligence on this system and the organization running it, (which personally I would recommend no matter what business you enter into) please send us an email with your questions and we'll endeavor to answer as much as we can.

To help you make a start on your DD, here is some of the information.

Global Head Office:
eCash International Inc. Trading as Clubfreedom.biz 12th Floor, 168-200
Connaught Road Central HONG KONG
Phone # + 852 8120 4447

Not sure that I consider due dilligence involve's calling club freedom to ask them how good they are but each to their own.

Anyway lets take a look at the address which points to Shun Tak Centre in Hong Kong, all seems fine and club freedom even have a picture of their offices on the website:
373

One tiny discrepency here is that Shun Tak Centre according to a multitude of other sources including wikipedia looks like this:
375 376
The image Club Freedom use is actually Citibank at Citibank Plaza No. 3 Garden Road Hong Kong.
Dont believe me ?, try google images type in Citibank Hong Kong and see what images pop up (The one missused by CF is on the first page).
Surely club freedom haven't picked an image at random and hoped for the best.;)
If any Hong Kong Members could also confirm which image is correct that would be great.

[Skeptik]

The image is on the citibank google image search.
But it's from an appartment and office search service page.
Not sure if I trust this page or not.
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.moveandstay.com/picture_apartments_main/6587_main.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.moveandstay.com/hongkong/default.asp&h=200&w=178&sz=11&hl=en&start=5&tbnid=OqUPR7YQtH00jM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCitibank%2BHong%2BKong%26svnum%3D10%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG
There's too much speculation here.
Does anyone have any real proof?
Because I'm having a hard time finding something solid to go on.

[raulitravel]

Maybe travel to hong kong and try find clubfreedom in that building yourselflol . But yeah i hate when something is not easy to determine or with proof.

[Webwatch]

Still trying to get something more concrete on the actual image used by Club Freedom ?
Howabout this link
http://www.regus.com/files/infomedia/locations/centre.asp?centre_id=1714

Still not conclusive though, If only Citibank would put their name on the side of the tower to help us out.

[Webwatch]

I'm spending far to much time on this but here it is with the Citibank sign.
http://www.bigwhiteguy.com/photos/photo.php?imageID=888

Still not 100% conclusive but I haven't got time to pop over to Hong Kong and have a look myself.

[darrenw]

Who cares what image they use? If you go to the contact page for IBM (http://www.ibm.com/contact/us/) you'll see an image of three people ready to take your call... Now do any of you honestly believe if you contact IBM, you'll be speaking to these lovely people in the image? Of course not! Graphic designers have thousands of images that they use when creating websites, and that includes images of office buildings.

[darrenw]

Also... the reason 'RCI' haven't heard of Clubfreedom is probably because Clubfreedom management is based in Australia, and as such they have hooked up a deal with RCI's Australian office, not the head office.

[Webwatch]

Maybe I'm in the minority on this but if your going to put a picture of your offices at least pick the right one.
It just looks dodgy to me when they pick the wrong picture when its so easy to get the right one.

As far as people's pictures go its common practise to use peoples faces which may not be a true representation of who you are speaking too.

As far as I know IBM aren't trying to push a Pyramid Scheme.

Scams always make these schoolboy errors because they don't think anyone will check.

[Arzel]

Also... the reason 'RCI' haven't heard of Clubfreedom is probably because Clubfreedom management is based in Australia, and as such they have hooked up a deal with RCI's Australian office, not the head office.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. We are living in an age of almost instant transfer of information. It is not like they have to wait for Oceanic courier service to relay the information.

Also, I agree with Web. They clearly seem to be misleading potential customers that the Citibank building is theirs, when their building is less than impressive.

[darrenw]

Hmm something else just caught my eye...

Also I do not understand that 8xUS$150="US$1000" which is what you apparently get when you qualify in the feeder board at the top before entering the main board. 8xUS$150=US$1200 so wots the deal with the missing US$200? The company claims the only time they make money is when people exit the main board...

I'm certainly no business expert but here's just a few things I can think of... hosting, fuel, electricity, computers, employee wages, bank fees, legal fees, phone bills... uuuuh, I don't think there'd be much left of that 200 bucks so I really doubt the company makes any money out of it. Seems like they'd be losing money here in fact... that stuff isn't cheap.

Taking in money and dishing it out for business expenses does not constitute making money, however the company does make money when they buy back $3500 worth of travel credits for $2500.

<hr align="left">
**Link Removed**

[Webwatch]

I'm certainly no business expert but here's just a few things I can think of... hosting, fuel, electricity, computers, employee wages, bank fees, legal fees, phone bills... uuuuh, I don't think there'd be much left of that 200 bucks so I really doubt the company makes any money out of it. Seems like they'd be losing money here in fact... that stuff isn't cheap.

I'm no expert either but I'm sure scams don't have as many overheads as other business's.

I thought a refferal link for club freedom was imminent.

[concerned]

I'm certainly no business expert but here's just a few things I can think of... hosting, fuel, electricity, computers, employee wages, bank fees, legal fees, phone bills... uuuuh, I don't think there'd be much left of that 200 bucks so I really doubt the company makes any money out of it. Seems like they'd be losing money here in fact... that stuff isn't cheap.

I think we all see your point, but let me break it out for you. If this is a scam, then you would NOT have the following expenses.

Fuel
Computers
Employee Wages


Those three in particular, cause you aren't actually running a business, you are just asking people to send you money. You don't need employees and computers for those employees to run a scam.

Next, Hosting costs maybe $30-$50 per month for a simple website. Electricity to run the one computer you have would be about $5 per month. Bank fees would be maybe $20 per month at most, since all you need is a place to store your newly acquired money. Legal Fees would be $0 while running the scheme, but costly once you are arrested (if the dumb government ever gets off their behinds). And phone bills may be $20 for a phone line for people to call you, but mostly when you have a scam, you don't want people to call you. In total, you are spending at most $75 per month. All you need to do is make 1 sale per month, and you are in profit.

[beeswax]

For all you guys communicating please have a click on http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiv...hp/t97286.html
STILL nothing new since September 22, and it's now October in this part of the world!

Don't waste your time............. there's way better things to do.

[raulitravel]

Hmm something else just caught my eye...

I'm certainly no business expert but here's just a few things I can think of... hosting, fuel, electricity, computers, employee wages, bank fees, legal fees, phone bills... uuuuh, I don't think there'd be much left of that 200 bucks so I really doubt the company makes any money out of it. Seems like they'd be losing money here in fact... that stuff isn't cheap.

<hr align="left">
**Link Removed**

When I last checked my board it said there were 1066 feeder boards. 1000x200=$200,000. Wow they really must drive alot of cars and spend alot on electricity etc etc etc. Feeder boards on average cycle once a month at least so worst case scenario is US$200,000 per month from feeder boards at current rates. It cannot cost US$200 to maintain a feeder board from appearance to when it splits, the computer web server side script maintains all of that and it just needs a handful of web developers at most to monitor, perform backups and add features and do other routine maintenance and a $20,000 server would last them several years :yes:. The rent in these office apartments is less than $20,000 per month so even that is easily absorbed by mystery feeder board US$200 money.

[Webwatch]

Looking at the address still it seems to be missing which Tower Club Freedom is in and also what room or rooms on the 12th floor.

Calling their phone number is possible but so is buying a Hong Kong phone number and then having it forward the call to a different continent.

The website registrant details aren't that helpfull as it is registered through a proxy so anonimity is the name of the game then.
Of course they may have a good reason for keeping their registrant details private after all with the amount of identity theft and internet scams around Today its best to stay protected.

I notice on the teamclubfreedom forum theres a thread asking what forums members are posting on-how about giving us a mention. ;)

[raulitravel]

I have noticed the signup pages on clubfreedom, or any other webpage for that matter do not use https:eek: , but just plain http so anyone with the right tools can sniff activity on these pages thus stealing credit card numbers and such. I'm gonna have to call my bank to get a new credit card because I dont trust I am safe having paid through their website that does not use encryption for transactions:confused: .

Thanks,
Rauli

[Webwatch]

I've tried one and have been directed to a https:// page.

The payment provider used is pay-charge.com whos support contact number is the same as Ps-wallet.com.

pay-charge.com resolves to an off shore server based in St Kitts, Basseterre.

Interesting statement on the pay-charge.com home page though.
Regarding Fraud
Over the past few months, we have noticed an increase in unintentional credit card fraud. Unfortunately, much of this fraud is caused by customers who have legitimately purchased products or services, but later forget or do not recognize the charge on their credit card statement.

We provide you with access to your transactions from this site so you can check what you have purchased.
Also a webpage mentioning possible pay-charge.com issues
http://quikonnex.com/channel/item/9848

Just a few findings and nothing concrete but as always if your in any doubt that your card details maybe compromised contact your bank and card provider and ask for advice-depending on your card provider you should be able to get a list of most recent transactions over the phone.

[mercinary]

Might we bring it to the payment processor's attention that they are supporting a pyramid scheme?

Those of you expressing concern on this thread might direct a well-written complaint/notification to pay-charge.

-Merc

[Jamie]

Hello people,
Interesting to see http://clubfreedom.biz/travelspirit/ there is no RCI logo anymore :crazy:
Thanks,
Jamie

[beeswax]

Well done Jamie.................. and still nothing new at http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html since Sept 22.
Interesting also that my 'friend' has dropped off trying to get me involved!!!

[Jamie]

This may mean the start of the end of Clubfreedom but maybe the program will continue for some time and people will graduate and collect their reward but if 10,000 people graduate and collect the monies just once that means it took at least 533,333 people to have signed up to benefit 10,000 people.

Thanks,
Jamie

[darrenw]

And the remaining 523,333 people are only left with a really cheap deal on 7 days luxury accommodation... Gee, those poor unfortunate people.

[Jamie]

Well I guess thats true, if those 533,333 people sign up at least 26,666,650 people under them. If all 6,000,000,000 people signed up on earth only 120,000,000 would get holidays and thats ignoring the missing US$200 on the feeder boards in which case the ratio is 64:1 and not 53.333:1.

Thanks,
Jamie

[darrenw]

No, no, no, my point is you don't have to sign anyone up to get the cheap vacation deal. The whole matrix/mlm thing is purely a side benefit for those who are good at marketing.

Even if you sign up noone at all you can get a continuing $150 discount on any 7 day accommodation deal from RCI for as many times as you want. Way cheaper than you'll get through any other travel agent and you don't even need to touch the mlm stuff.

[Jamie]

Well thats fine any everything but how come don't you get a username and password for the RCI website that RCI members have? So, how do you redeem this voucher 'again and again' if membership with RCI is a lie from Clubfreedom? As I mentioned before, the RCI logo has been eliminated from their website and now all references to RCI before have been changed to 'Global Vacation Network' whatever that is. I see there is a http://www.globalvacationnetwork.com/ we may see this change again to something else.

Cheers,
Jamie

[darrenw]

RCI Australia is currently developing a site exclusively for Clubfreedom members. As soon as they've finally finished it, I'm sure we'll all hear about it. If anyone has any doubts as to whether RCI Australia is actually in the process of creating it's new site, then just wait til they announce it before signing up. The people who are in a hurry to sign up now are just those mlm-types who want to get good positions on the marketing boards.

[traveller]

I was in a meeting with the Managing Director the other week and he made mention that when www.clubfreedomtravel.com is finished (which is the website that the rci techies are building for CF) CF members will be able to login check thier travel credits and call an actual staff member to arrange the travel package. - Its quite funny reading what people post when they are only speculating and have no idea of what is happeing. I find this thread rather entertaining, just what will you guys think up next?

[Webwatch]

RCI Australia is currently developing a site exclusively for Clubfreedom members. As soon as they've finally finished it, I'm sure we'll all hear about it. If anyone has any doubts as to whether RCI Australia is actually in the process of creating it's new site, then just wait til they announce it before signing up. The people who are in a hurry to sign up now are just those mlm-types who want to get good positions on the marketing boards.
Sorry Darrenw but I think your just believing what club freedom told you, any RCI connection whatsoever is in serious doubt.

All they have done is substitute the letters RCI for Global Vacation Network.
I agree that any one thinking of joining should wait for an announcement- but if past track record is anything to go buy make sure they get confirmation from RCI first.

[Webwatch]

I was in a meeting with the Managing Director the other week and he made mention that when www.clubfreedomtravel.com is finished (which is the website that the rci techies are building for CF) CF members will be able to login check thier travel credits and call an actual staff member to arrange the travel package. - Its quite funny reading what people post when they are only speculating and have no idea of what is happeing. I find this thread rather entertaining, just what will you guys think up next?
Hi Traveller-Meeting with the MD thats impressive, was that one of those conference call's or where you actually at their office ?.

What I find funny is how CF keeps trying to dig themselves out of the hole they are in.

Lets face it they can't even get there own office image right (thats if they do have an office right ;) ) trusting them with any sort of travel arrangements is decidedly risky.

Will they now refund any members who thought RCI membership was included when they joined.

[traveller]

Hi Webwatch, i met him at one of my upline sponsors house. Look, i cant deny the fact that it looks like the wrong image is on the site, and that the original rci offer was miscomunicated.

When you join CF you are purchasing a travel voucher, not a membership to an mlm.

This $150 travel voucher as darrenw explained is a discount on 3 accomodation packages, that are already discounted.

The other $15 is absorbed into other costs in setting up accounts.

Now yes CF does make a tiny amount out of the $150, but its hardly worth mentioning, we are talking peanuts.

For those who wish to introduce other people to the opportunity of getting the travel voucher and use it as a discount on accomodation there is a bonus plan i.e. the revolving matrix.

You can participate in the plan if you like or not.

CF is all about getting a travel voucher to get a good discount on accomodation and telling people you know about it.

If you tell others who want to go on holidays about the travel voucher so they can get a good deal on accomodation then there is an added system designed to reward those who make the effort with travel credits and cash.

[Webwatch]

Thanks Traveller,
I'm still struggling to see anything more than just a Pyramid Scheme but lets look at the vouchers.

Starting with the $599 one.
Which travel club is this voucher valid with, is it still RCI or the Global Vacation Network both have been around since 1974 according to club freedom.
Can it only be used once or is it an actual timeshare points voucher that can be used every year.
Is this voucher the same as free vouchers which time share resellers send out.

Do you have an image of one of these vouchers that we can take a look at.

I suppose we could argue that the Bonus here is the Voucher's and the main reason anyone would join is for the Matrix program.

I wont use bold but in my opinion:
Club Freedom is a Pyramid Scheme-The Vouchers are bait and a smokescreen to what is nothing more than an exercise in Downline building.
Club Freedom misslead people about their RCI connection because they thought no one would do any due diligence and check.
Club freedom can't even get their office address correct, a room number is needed not just 12th floor 168-200 Connaught Road-again they thought no one would check.
Club Freedom can't get their own office image right, again they thought that no one would check, now the problem they have is do they change it to prove me right or leave as it is and just pretend its no big deal.

Maybe this is all just speculation though.

[traveller]

Hi Webwatch,

The $599 voucher is valid with RCI. The package is for 7 nights accomodation. CF isnt involved in the timeshare side of things however the relationship is like this.

RCI are wholesalers for some 3,500 hotels around the globe, these hotels want to keep the numbers up during off peak and when rooms arnt full.

So what RCI does is create packages and wholesales them to various companies like "Trend West" and alike to market to the everyday consumer.

This being the case, CF has met with RCI and projected a forecast on the number of people who will join and subsequently be purchasing a travel voucher ($150 credit towards one of the three packages).

RCI have noted the potential and have agreed to provide its wholesale packages to CF's members.

As i said in an earlier post, most of the $150 will go to RCI, this is a win for them as they are getting a deposit from CF's members up front.

There is a 24 month expiry on the travel discount. The website states that it is a continuing discount, so this is the case.

Due to the electronic nature of the the vouchers and the system used there is no need to present the member with a physical in the hand voucher.

When the travel site is operational you will be able to fetch your voucher id and call an operator to organise your accomodation package.

[Webwatch]

Thanks Traveller,
So we are back to RCI again, and even though CF tell us they are able to sell the RCI vouchers why has the RCI logo suddenly dissapeared.

Surely if RCI is receiving some commision from CF they would let them use the RCI logo. Let me take a guess,its because the RCI site isn't set up for CF yet.

There is a 24 month expiry on the travel discount. The website states that it is a continuing discount, so this is the case.Past experience tells us not to take anything the CF website tells us as the truth.

Maybe its just me being to cynical but does anyone else get the feeling this looks a little dodgy.

[Jamie]

Hello all,

Since I have the flu and got bored I thought to try a whois checkup on clubfreedoms websites. www.whois.com with www.clubfreedom.biz found the registrar is in the US, Arizona and is proxied through http://domainsbyproxy.com/ and shortly after seeing this even though I did not know about domainsbyproxy it looked a bit like a hood if you know what I mean and interestingly this is domainsproxy's catch line on their homepage "Did you know that for each domain name you register, anyone - anywhere, anytime - can find out your name, home address, phone number and email address?" and "The law requires that the personal information you provide with every domain you register be made public in the "WHOIS" database." fair enough, so why would Clubfreedom register behind a proxy organisation? Something to hide? I mean its not like its appropriate a legitimate company would have it's own physical and postal address unless they are vagrants. RCI's location details are not behind some proxy organisation when I did a whois look up on them. The time the domain has been registered for is one year "Domain Registration Date: Tue Feb 28 22:52:14 GMT 2006
Domain Expiration Date: Tue Feb 27 23:59:59 GMT 2007" is this just standard practise or they not sure if they gonna be around for long? Same period is for www.clubfreedomtravel.com and registered in the same manner, behind domainsproxy. Perhaps it may not mean much but only time will tell.

Thanks,
Jamie

[Jamie]

www.clubfreedomtravel.com is supposed to be built by RCI right? If I made a website to serve customers of another organisation under me I would register it under myself and not do some work for a company supposedly in child partnership and give them ownership over it.

Thanks,
Jamie

[mercinary]

Jamie:

#1: Many companies use domainsbyproxy to shield private information. I would support the argument that only someone with something to hide would use this service. Matrixwatch contacted domainsbyproxy to inquire about the pyramid scheme they were hosting. Domainsbyproxy does not release private information unless they are required to by investigations by law enforcement. Upon review, Domainsbyproxy found no illegal activity associated with clubfreedom. I'm always suprised at how immoral such services are. Clubfreedom is clearly a pyramid. I guess Domainsbyproxy will change their minds when a lawsuit is eventually launched. We (M.W.) are saving their emails for when that time rolls around so that they can't claim they weren't aware it was a pyramid scheme. :D

#2: Domains can be purchased for various lengths of time I believe. 1 year is pretty standard and I understand it. You just have to renew yearly....

-Merc

[beeswax]

"Con Freedom"............. as dodgy as all hell!

Who, seriously, sets up a business with all these flaws?

[Jamie]

I'm not so concerned that CF is legal, for me its more that its unsustainable. There are legal companies that the existance of which is immoral, like real estate agents - since a place to live is a necessary and not a luxury. In australia real estate agents are amongst the least liked and trusted workers, trying to manipulate and exploit you at every moment. Consider Finland for example, public housing is prevalent and the waiting list for something that is no castle but more than good enough to live in is short and as a concequence private housing is cheap, sure there should be a private housing since a more wealthy person can afford a bigger and better place but the option for low cost housing should be there for everyone and this is one reason the quality of life in nordic countries is so high because people don't have to spend all their lives bleeding and sweating buckets loads just to have a place to live and in these countries having home is a normality whereas in australia owning a home is 'the great australian dream' that is real after you spend all your life working like a dog to own, which is sad. Just because something is legal does not make it ethical or moral - domainsbyproxy and CF are examples of this but perhaps the law in whatever country CF exists will not tolerate a system where the majority benefit the few which is the case with CF and then of course CF pick pockets US$200 from the feeder board trying through silence to get away with it:nono: . Anyhow that is my 2 cents.

[Webwatch]

At last the RCI debate is over, maybe:

We thank you for your loyalty, commitment, and belief
in this great opportunity that Clubfreedom has brought
to market.

Also your patience is appreciated, as Clubfreedom has
not escaped nor avoided the teething problems that
each new start-up company endures, be it traditional
corporate or direct selling/networking corporations.

However on a positive note since launch only 5 weeks
ago on 1st September our growth has never abated but
continued strong to the fact we now have members in
over 20 countries. Also we have paid out commissions
on time to the amount of US$520,000! (A lot of happy
Travellers) And the journey has just begun!

Now in regard to RCI. In recent weeks Clubfreedom has
attracted a lot of interest and comments from the
International community, in fact both the North
American and South Pacific offices have been inundated
with nuisance phone calls from so called members
asking all sorts of questions and taking up much
valued time of receptionists (Were they members or
not ????)

Regardless, RCI have decided to negate our agreement
immediately and we strongly request that all mention
of RCI in written form i.e. Logo’s or marketing
material be removed from all Clubfreedom independent
web sites and literature. And from this time forth
all online marketing and advertising materials MUST
BE Approved by Clubfreedom as per terms & conditions.
Failure to comply will result in termination of
membership.
BUT, never fear we have another provider with similar
if not better Vacation stock available for our Global
member base... This is going to be equal to previous
Vacation packages and should be available within a
few weeks.

You will also note that the “product” has been
undergoing changes in an effort to produce a quality
product for Clubfreedom Members.

In particular it has come to the notice of Clubfreedom
management from the Travel Industry that there would
be a difficulty in processing all types of travel
requirements accessible to Clubfreedom Members in all
countries of the world. Many Members also questioned
whether Clubfreedom would have the capacity to match
some highly discounted Travel deals promoted by Travel
Companies in their own region. It is therefore
necessary to redefine the “product” description and to
simplify access to travel requirements.

Upon legal advice from our Lawyers in USA and Australia
together with Leaders in Clubfreedom it has been agreed
to implement these changes for the mutual benefits to
all members in securing a long term business opportunity.

- US$150 Discount Voucher will be a genuine (one use
only) discount off already discounted US$825 Vacation
resort 7 day packages available throughout the world.
- Access to multiple Cruise Lines.
- Now the exciting part: Upon exiting the Main Travel
board a Consultant’s Marketing Fee of US$6,000 will
be paid into their very own Clubfreedom Travel Card.
This Travel Card can be used at any Travel Agency for
payment of whatever travel requirements they require.
This will enable Members to source discounted travel
services wherever and whenever they wish, as well as
using the Card to access cash at ATM’s for spending
money.
- PLUS: Clubfreedom will give to each “user name” that
cycles from the main board the first time only a
US$825 valued 7 day stay at your choice of Luxury
resorts around the Globe!
- Vacations and Cash!

These changes will simplify our marketing:

=============
The Product
=============
US$150 Discount Voucher off already discounted top
shelf 7-day Resort Vacations. This Voucher can be
used at any time and is a stand-alone product not
subject to introducing this offer to others.

==============
The Benefits
==============
US$6,000 credited to your Travel Card each cycle
plus a 7 day Luxury Vacation on a member's initial
cycle.

These changes will be reflected on Clubfreedom web
sites by the 10th October if not sooner.

Also a mention of a new online forum which is operated
by Roel Wijmans, a great guy who moderates the forum
with a great deal of integrity. This is a great forum
to get questions answered in regard how the boards
split etc. as we have our own valued Techie answering
questions there from time-to-time!
The url is: **Sorry Your Not Getting a Plug**

Please feel welcome to visit and perhaps get some
queries satisfied.

Also please direct all business enquiries via a support
ticket at the help desk in the members area, the Help
Desk is made available 24 hours a day.

Once again management thanks you for continued support
to Clubfreedom which is really your business as we only
provide the vehicle for yours and our mutual long-term
success.

With Gratitude and sincerity the management Team wish
you rich blessings and Happy Vacations!
Interesting how CF see members or potential members or just people doing general due diligence as 'Nuisance Callers' :eek: lol . In other words they have been well and truly caught out, next step should be to relaunch under a different name. How about www.revolvingtravel.com with an interestingly similar ip address to CF, and now costs just $59.95 to join the Pyramid.

For all those 'Nuisance Caller's' who saved $150+ by doing their DD :applause::applause: :bow:

[Jamie]

Well this is how the cookie crumbles, and then uncrumbles to cycle again in a 'revolting matrix' lol

[Jamie]

...next step should be to relaunch under a different name. How about www.revolvingtravel.com with an interestingly similar ip address to CF

How similar? Clubfreedoms website=65.182.187.153
Revolvingtravels=65.182.187.150
Has suspect written all over it.

[beeswax]

Good on you Jamie, get on with something else in life.
Webwatch convinvced me weeks ago of this con.
I keep checking in hoping that more others, like you, eventually see the light.
Like you I wanted to keep believing.............. and wasted time!

[Webwatch]

No RCI Travel vouchers-all thats left now is a Pyramid Scheme in its purest form.
Watch how the heavy hitters at the top start spouting the usual classics, i.e. "This is not a Pyramid Scheme and anyone who thinks so is not welcome in my downline" lol and other similar verbal diahorea.

Club freedom need to get hold of some e-books pretty quick or something to pretend to sell in order to try and fool the membership with.

Just saying that you'l get $6000 and be able to walk into a travel agent and get further discounts is stretching it a bit. If anyone walked into a travel agent with $6000 the discounts would be flying at them regardless of any Club Freedom connection.

If you do go to a travel agents and ask for a Club Freedom Holiday be carefull as there is a Nudist/Naturist Club who call some of there excursions club freedom-unless of course thats what your after. Whatever floats your boat.:)

[beeswax]

One of you should have the heart to tell the poor unfortunates at http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html

[concerned]

One of you should have the heart to tell the poor unfortunates at http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html

I won't be the one to tell that group. Most of them are not "POOR UNFORTUNATES". I guess the newer ones are, but they are mostly speculators that try to take advantage of the scams before they get too big. They profit from the scams, then cry foul when they fold, even though they knew all along they would fold. I thing of them as the earth's ultimate hypocrits.

[elpedro]

How many people go and waste $150 at a casino on any given night? Are you crusaders going to stand out the front and make a human blockade to help these people hang on to their money?

I have invested into club freedom if I cycle great if I don't so what. I have been on for less than three weeks and am on the main board. My line is very strong and it is more than likley by Monday I will jump from reservation straight to stand by.

So long as everyone pulls thier weight a lot of people will be cycling.

[Webwatch]

Hello Elpedro and welcome to Matrixwatch.

The old Casino comparison comes up a lot with Pyramid Schemes, can't think why as with a casino you know there is chance you will lose your money but at least you have a bit of excitement in the process and don't have to feed off others peoples gullability and trust.

A pyramid scheme is illegal in most places due to the fact that the only way to make money is off those in your downline, its all just a money cycling game everyone expects to cycle but few ever do apart from the admin of course who always cycle any time they want.

Crusader-Ive been called worse,:) but I don't physically stop anyone investing in anything just put forward my opinion as to why these schemes will fail due to the fact they are just a scam like Club Freedom.
Its all down to personal choice at the end of the day but by perpetuating this scam you are no better than the scam founders themselves.

So please go to your nearest legal Casino and put $150 on Black or Red on the roulette table (Reds best Trust Me) then at least you wont have to perpetuate a lie.

Please don't use the old Corporate America Pyramid Scheme comparison either.

[elpedro]

When I get people involve I never promise them they are guaranteed to cycle. I clearly explain the principles and math behind what is involved to get through. I also make sure that they have people who will join behind them.

It seems the only people who are complaining after joining CF are the ones who are to incompotent to sign two people up.

If you can't afford to lose the $150 then don't join. It's that simple. Millions of people waste money on useless crap every day around the world. So if they want to invest $150 into this, get a holiday voucher, and perhaps have a chance at a free weeks holiday with $6000 why not?

[Webwatch]

Thats certainley an interesting philosophy you have there.
So do you actually tell people Club Freedom is a Pyramid Scheme and the only way to progress is to recruit others to do the same and for every one person that supposedly cycles there needs to be 70 people to accomplish this. Might need one of our Maths experts to confirm this though.

There will be plenty who will complain about CF but usually they wait untill the scheme collapses, I doub't its a case of incompetence to recruit more an unwillingnes to take other peoples money with fake promises.

With Pyramid schemes the hook is to convince members that they are always just about to cycle, few ever do.

If you can't afford to lose the $150 then don't join. It's that simple. I couldn't agee more. Some will take multiple positions though, convinced this will help their own cycling times.

[elpedro]

I am quite sure the majority of people who join realise that they will not cycle if they do not recruit two people. It is stated on the website.

I feel no guilt in bringing people into CF as I do a good job clearly explaining how it works. Perhaps others are not so moral in their approach however it doesn't really help them out too much if they aren't getting thier downline on the main board.

I have been told in order to exit the main board you must have two people in your downline also on a main board somewhere to qualify you.

Also on your point of people taking multiple positons they really need to think it through and make sure they will be able to recruit the downline to keep the momentum on their board. I have three postions now but I heavily stacked my first position before I puchased my second and did the same again before purchasing the third. I do not intend to purchase any more. I now have 3 or more recruits on all of my positons.

I am content with my 3 positions and am confident in my ability to sucsessfully get them to cycle. I earn a decent income though and will not be devasted if I was to not recievce the travel voucher and travel account.

So to sum up my perspective is if you can afford the $150 and know you will have no trouble finding two people and then help them to get their two or you are intersted in purchasing a discount holiday(vacation for all our north american freinds) then go for it! If not then perhaps Club Freedom is not for you.

[Webwatch]

I am quite sure the majority of people who join realise that they will not cycle if they do not recruit two people. It is stated on the website.
It takes a lot more than just recruiting 2 people you have to believe those 2 will recruit another 2 and so on and so on, some even use the term spillover so you think that any spare positions below you are filled by others recruiting.
Be carefull about believing what the website tells you, remember they want your money you are just a $ sign to them.

The trouble is even in large communities these schemes fail (lets not consider the legality's at the moment) mainly because there is always a limit on how many people can be recruited-even with the internet the competition for downline building means eventually you will run out of recruits if any at all join you.

As most people now know what a Pyramid Scheme is and how to avoid them the victim base will get smaller and smaller.

The life cycle of a Pyramid Scheme is always dependant on its ability to recruit so take CF with no products just hyped up vouchers (which aren't valid with RCI) and all you have is money changing hands (most going to admin) so its life cycle I estimate is around 4 Months -this does not mean that in this time recruitment will be constant just that it will take that long for enough members to realize its a scam and move onto the next one and stop promoting club freedom.

It would be impossible for me to convince you that this will fail as you will find out for yourself eventually anyway and I presume you are convinced you will cycle at least once before it does, but be carefull if you are recruiting in person as you may find those you have recruited may want a refund-of course the internet alows for some amount of anononymity an ideal scenario for a Pyramid Scheme.

So if you have spent $450 (+$15 admin fee each if applicable) on 3 positions and can afford to lose this then thats your choice, you know the risks and at least you are more informed than many who belive everything these Pyramid Scheme websites tell them.

Club Freedom claim they have paid out $520,000 already anyone care to guess how many members they supposedly have for this to be true.

[the middle road]

This is my 1st comment in this forum. I'm not going to sway of either side of this argument but hopefully stick to the facts that I see.

Let me start off though by saying I have joined Club Freedom and I hope it goes well, but I am not here to push it. I have signed up 1 friend and have another ready. I really don't want to let these people down.

Where do I start? I have been to Uni and studied IT so I'm not stupid, just wrong sometimes? I am willing to be put right.

The $150 entry fee (excluding admin costs) x 8 people on the bottom row of the feeder table = $1200.
The board fills up.
The price to go to the main table = $1000
Ok, I accept the fact $200 is missing.

8 people on the main board bring with them the $1000. ie $8000
Once cycled, they recieve $6000 and $1000 to enter the main board again. First time through they get $825 worth of holiday.
OK another $175 to Clubfreedom and they would have made a deal for the resort package anyway. If you cycle again, no holiday, only $6000 and $1000 rentry fee means another $1000 profit to them.

I see the maths that way and I really don't think it's anymore complicated than that.

Now cycling.

If you get 1 person below you and someone above you has no-one, you will skip above them on the feeder board. Two people in your downline, you rise above others with less. This is to reward marketing.

My best friend joined herself and 2 daughters under her about 2 weeks ago.
My friend is at the top of the feeder board.
I joined under one of her daughters. I have signed up one person and have another ready. Her daughter has jumped above my friend onto the main board already, and I am 1 position away from the top of the feeder board. If my friends signed up when i told them about this, I would be at the top.

Do you see how fast it can move.
Of couse you can, but it's going to slow down eventually. Right? Probably, but how long has a certain diamond trader been using this system for to market their product?

My best friend the lady, mentioned before, earns thousands of dollars per month in commisions from a legitimate Australian MLM company selling around the globe. Her sponsor, who also earns thousands told her about this. She knows the founders of Clubfreedom and told us to join. These two people have not looked into anything similar until now, Clubfreedom, 20 years later.I also know another person who knows one of the founders and he says he is a respectful person of the community. These people are all strong Christians, not that that should sway this argument in anyway I hope.

So I get a lot of secondhand information because I can't go to the meetings in Brisbane. Who knows how the Chinese whispers work. I moved to Adelaide a few years ago and wish I could go to the meetings myself.

Do I believe this is a form of multi level marketing? Yes.
Do I think this is a scam? No.
Am I upset with RCI dropping out of the deal? Damn right.
Look on the teamclubfreedom forum, others are upset too.

Apparently, the founders are extremely embarresed about the whole RCI thing. Their mistake was making a deal with RCI Australia, and not the rest of the world. I still don't know what's going to happen with the travel vouchers, but word is RCI are offering the $825 voucher while Clubfreedom do negotiations with other companies.

Is this a pyramid scam?
Not a scam in my books, but obviously forms of pyramids exist in the matrix, although they would not want you to believe that.

I have heard through the grapevine, whether it be distorted or not, that Clubfreedom are now going into direct marketing to sign up people into the tables under us. Maybe that's what part of that missing $1200 is going towards, and the rest I suppose will go into their pockets but that's business.

I will keep posting on this forum and update on my progress. I'm the control for this experiment, and if it is a scam, I will be the first to admit it.

I believe it is a share the wealth program

[elpedro]

It takes a lot more than just recruiting 2 people you have to believe those 2 will recruit another 2 and so on and so on, some even use the term spillover so you think that any spare positions below you are filled by others recruiting.


The spillover is no myth, a friend who signed directly under me has made it to the main board without signing anyone up do to the fact that my first position has 6 direct lines under it.

The trouble is he will now need people to qualify him on the main board if he doesn't sign them up and help them reach the main board he will get stuck there.

[theflame]

Has this Club Freedom been registered with all the proper registrations that are required in the United States and if they are operating outside United States, have they registered with those regulatory departments.

[Webwatch]

Hello The Middle Road and welcome to Matrixwatch.

The last thing I want to do is put you off this forum by coming over all aggresive and arrogant as to why I know club freedom will fail, so lets look at club freedoms claim of $520,000 already paid out.

For arguments sake lets say club freedom take no profit at all.
So for each person to receive $6000 how many have to join.

Well if each member pays $150 (6000/150=40) so 40 members for each one to cycle/receive or whatever terms they like to use.

So if they have paid out $520,000 already does that mean 86 members have already cycled (520,000/6000=86.66) so in order for 86 members to cycle they would now have at least 3440 members (86x40).

For those 3440 members to cycle they need 137,600 members and for those to cycle another 9,632,000 members, my calculator runs out of numbers for the next step.

These figures are just estimates (I'm no maths expert) but surely you can see how many will lose their money in this venture, a best case ratio of 40 to 1.

Of course they will explain it in the way that every member is different and some will build downlines quicker than others but in the end as all Pyramids schemes do they collapse and run out of members also they will try and make everyone believe they are always just about to cycle and just need a few more referals.

Club Freedom and the RCI connection I believe was always just a ruse to drag people in and what probably surprised them is how quickly they where found out, but thats just my opinion.

All I can do is ask you to be very carefull with this and if your recruiting friends and family be prepared for problems when Club Freedom fails and you get those who have joined with you wanting their money back.

Elpedro I know we may differ on this but I believe spillover is a Pyramid Schemes lie to help those get involved who can't be bothered to recruit or don't have the time.

[the middle road]

You may be right, but is that the same as the maths riddle in year 12, you know the one. Working from the top down, instead of the botom up.
This is true for me
This year I got nearly a 50% payrise and this is reality.
$17 an hour to $25, nearly 50% pay rise for me.
Looking at $25 an hour compared to $17 is about 33% loss.
50% compared to 33% bam, do you get it?

[the middle road]

I'm not here to push anything, and I am going to be a regular member on this site. If what am doing fails, I will still post whatever and and happy to conceed defeat.

[the middle road]

Thankyou Webwatch for looking after people. I have heard your views and will take them seriiously. I'm alredy signed up so I will inform you of my progress.

[Webwatch]

You may be right, but is that the same as the maths riddle in year 12, you know the one. Working from the top down, instead of the botom up.
This is true for me
This year I got nearly a 50% payrise and this is reality.
$17 an hour to $25, nearly 50% pay rise for me.
Looking at $25 an hour compared to $17 is about 33% loss.
50% compared to 33% bam, do you get it?
If you keep getting regular pay rises like this the loss in 5 years time is going to be huge.

Thankyou Webwatch for looking after people. I have heard your views and will take them seriiously. I'm alredy signed up so I will inform you of my progress.
Thanks but people have to look after themselves I can only give my opinion nothing more.

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress with CF.

[the middle road]

Webwatch,

You may have misinterpreted my comment by thinking I was involved in MLM already. As an employee, my pay (which now I wish I hadn't told anyone) was just a real life example of looking at a figure from the top down instead of bottom up.

Maybe I didn't explain it right:
$20 an hour to $30. 50%.

If I was demoted:
$30 an hour to $20. 33%.

50% equals 33%. Not right.

The maths is all about which direction you are coming from. It seems that when you broke down the tables, you may be doing it from the wrong direction.

Hey, I might have misinterpreted your post, but it's a good excuse for an intelligent chat, instead of watching the goon box :)

And your not coming across arrogant.

By the way my friend joined the main board today and her friend is one step away from getting the money and holiday. Their mutual friend has already achieved this. Yes, I realise this is the friend of a a friend story.

I look forward to keep you updated whatever the outcome. I have questioned Clubfreedom about the RCI thing and hope for a response soon.

[Webwatch]

Maths-can never get to grips with it.

The only direction I can look at it is in the way the many pay off the few in a minimum 40 to 1 ratio although I suspect its closer to 70 to 1.

I wonder if CF will announce which company the travel vouchers are valid with as I thought it was just cash now, although after RCI they might be nervous in case anyone checks.

CF will always be in control of what they say they will do and how it should work, what they can't do is stop it from failing much to the detriment of those members who thought they where getting in early enough but in reality will always be to late.

No problem telling us how much your earn, if I told you I earned around £108,000 ($200,000 ish) nett, no one would believe me anyway.

[Arzel]

Webwatch,

You may have misinterpreted my comment by thinking I was involved in MLM already. As an employee, my pay (which now I wish I hadn't told anyone) was just a real life example of looking at a figure from the top down instead of bottom up.

Maybe I didn't explain it right:
$20 an hour to $30. 50%.

If I was demoted:
$30 an hour to $20. 33%.

50% equals 33%. Not right.

The maths is all about which direction you are coming from. It seems that when you broke down the tables, you may be doing it from the wrong direction.

Hey, I might have misinterpreted your post, but it's a good excuse for an intelligent chat, instead of watching the goon box :)

And your not coming across arrogant.

By the way my friend joined the main board today and her friend is one step away from getting the money and holiday. Their mutual friend has already achieved this. Yes, I realise this is the friend of a a friend story.

I look forward to keep you updated whatever the outcome. I have questioned Clubfreedom about the RCI thing and hope for a response soon.

Percentages can be deceptive. However, the correct way to express them is always from the old number. $20 to $30 is an increase of 50%. $30 to $20 is a decrease of 33% just as you have said. But a better way to express would be to say that $30 is 150% of $20 and $20 is 67% of $30.

Occasionally you will see people express them incorrectly. Such as, "There was a 500% decrease in crime over the past year." Which is technically impossible, if the crime rate was 100, it would now be 20, which is a decrease of 80%, where 100 is 500% of 20.

That being said, Web is not dealing with percentages but ratios, and does not appear to be mathmatically incorrect.

[the middle road]

Arzel,
I have looked seriously at Web's maths and believe he is correct. You are correct as well, stating it's about ratios and not percentages.
The only variable not taken into account is that when you cycle the main board you bring $1000 back to the main board. To be honest I can't be bothered working out that maths on this one.

Clubfreedom replied to my email about RCI and said we are dealing with Clubfreedom Travel now. They are in negotiations at the moment and don't want to say anything until it's set in concrete. We are still able to get our travel vouchers redeemed at a travel agent and soon be able to book online.

Ok, to me it is sounding like a business not a scam. There is a fine line between any business being a scam. According to some posts, you can get these vouchers for free or little cost. Probably, but marketing and business is marketing and business.

I really do hope this all turns out legit. But I am the middle road and will believe it when I see it.

[beeswax]

Hi "The Middle Road"

This thread evolved from a query of mine some weeks ago.
The reason I enquired was because the 'business opportunity' shown to me did not display too many normal business practices.

You are very wrong about one thing.

There is NOT............ "a fine line between any business being a scam"

I run a successful business based on a product, business ethics, accepted business practice.......... and transparency. I ensured that when we opened for business that I wouldn't have to immediately alter my business plan because my marketing people had got it wrong. I also made things easy for people to understand!

I adhere very closely to two other principles: -
If something sounds too good to be true, it generally is!
I want my friends to stay my friends, and I want my business acquaintances/associates/customers to become my friends.

[the middle road]

"If something sounds too good to be true, it generally is!"
Another saying is "You have to spend money to make money."

Listen I am not here to push Clubfreedom. According to your argument a business is not a scam.

I used to own an antique store. I buy a huge amount of furniture for $20 from the auctions and then put a massive mark up in my store. I used to find stuff on the side of the road I could sell. Is this a scam? Yes, people could go to the auctions themselves and get deals that would make you cry. People could go driving around the streets and find something they wanted on hard waste day.

How's your transparency going mate?

[beeswax]

Thanks for your response "The Middle Road"

In order:
Club Freedom is spending NO money...... to make money off mugs.

I am not arguing about anything, just asserting that there IS NOT a fine line between generally-accepted businesses and SCAMS. There is a HUGE THICK LINE............. a HUGE difference.

I wish you well in your business. What you do is accepted practice: you do all the hard work that people could do for themselves, but prefer to pay you for.

The BIG difference with Club Freedom however is that what they are attempting is NOT legal. Things like "The Aeroplane Game" were outlawed years ago as pyramid schemes................. and this is acccepted globally.
Continue to push it if you so desire.
But be sensible who you push it towards. One of them might be a friend, and be clever enough to ask Club Freedom to produce a list of those who received the $520,000 supposedly paid out in commissions so far!!!!

[Jamie]

Do I understand correctly that now the first time you graduate from the travellers position with clubfreedom, you only get US$825 worth of travel and cash, as opposed to the previous $7000? If this is true, its false advertising, suddenly changing what they started with so people who signed up under the old reward scheme now get about 1/9th of what they originally are promised all under the now false belief they first had.

Thanks,
Rauli

[the middle road]

Jamie,

people now get $6000 and an $825 travel package on the first cycle through. Cycling after that only recieves $6000 and no travel package.

And Beeswax, I meant argument in the debate type of way. Not that I'm for or against Clubfreedom on this forum hopefully.

Regards

[Webwatch]

Interesting how business ethics come into the discussion.

CF uses an unsustainable (and in most places illegal) business model coupled with a Holiday voucher of dubious validity and a customer base built on greed and gullability that believe eventually they will receive a huge return.

CF's customers will eventually become its biggest liability as all will know doubt expect to cycle but few if any ever will.

CF mislead its customers in the beginning with the RCI connection and now are saying the travel vouchers are valid at every travel agent-I doubt it.
Should'nt those customers who got into CF on the strength of the RCI connection be entitled to a refund.

But there is no product here its just a purchase of a position in a downline club where each member thinks they can cycle just by recruiting a few people and expecting them to do the same.

Would anyone buy the voucher if the Matrix wasn't attached-highly unlikely.

The Middle Road-thanks for trying to stay impartial although you may find it hard not to take sides in this discussion but please don't fall into the Pyramid Cult trap of any attack on CF's credibilty is an attack on you, I assure you its not.

Theres always a slim chance that I maybe wrong and CF is a genuine business which cares about its customers and wants to become a big player in the travel business and just disguises itself as a Pyramid Scheme because they don't know what there doing.:)

[the middle road]

I hear you Webwatch, and I probably do find it hard not to take sides, although I try....

[the middle road]

but everything you have said makes sense to me

[OnlyWhenILarf]

I was in a meeting with the Managing Director the other week ...

Can I ask what name he gave? I'm having a meeting with the Managing Director also, and naturally it would allay some of my own qualms if it's the self-same fellow.

[beeswax]

I wish Traveller/OnlyWhenILarf would let us know how either/both meetings went with the MD!!!!

[miffy]

Hi everyone,

I understood that when people reached the main board with club freedom they then just cycled upto the top and then cycled as many times beyond that. You don't have to sell to two more people after that. That's not correct.

[Webwatch]

Hello Miffy and welcome to Matrixwatch.
The rules and cycle techniques of Pyramid schemes will always differ slightly and I can only comment on the Club Freedom design from a basis of what they present.

One thing that will never change is that 90%+ of people will never cycle out and will just be stuck on the last 2 - 4 levels of the Pyramid, in CF's case this is called the main board.

It should be quite easy to cycle to the main board as CF can manipulate the positions as and when they chose and its vital that all members have some form of movement so they can promote the scheme to others.

With the introduction of Revolving Travel which uses a 2 x 2 matrix with a $59.95 cost (4 to cycle 1 member to the CF feeder board then 1 free entry into RT) this allows the illusion of cycling which in turn generates more hype.

Have no doubt that RT and CF are run by exactly the same people the similar IP address and the fact that both sites went offline for the same amount of time shows this. But as this is a Pyramid Scheme the admin of CF will always be in control and will decide when anyone is allowed to cycle and receive this $6000 which is the main goal of everyone who joins CF.

CF also have an extra stalling tactic by using somesort of Debit Card to receive these funds so when this is coming to its end many will start to cycle but few if any will ever receive the $6000.

With the RCI connection lies being uncovered quite early I thought this might spell doom for CF but the introduction of Revolving Travel is a clever move to rehype the scheme and shows that CF are well versed in what they are doing.

Whichever way CF choose to word things that fact will never change that it will always take at least 40 to 50 members in order for 1 to cycle, whether you refer 2 or 200 CF admin will always be the ones who decide if they let anyone receive the $6000.

[the middle road]

G'day people, i've been on holidays enjoying fishing, sun and beer. It's a hard life, I know. :)

Web, it is obvious that RT and CF are on the same servers, I am waiting for a phone call from those in the know why. Maybe the owners of both companies know each other? Maybe the webmaster decided to cash in on his privileged postion? Who knows? Everythings not black and white.

The RCI connection wasn't a lie, because before it collasped, I was able to log onto the RCI website, with the same access as their members have.

The owners of CF have spent a whole pile of money out of their own pocket buying holiday packages to give to their members. They have also found a new travel company, and the booking site should be up in a day or so.

This does not sound like the actions of scammers, but I certainly agree though that business has not gone to plan.
Regards.

[Webwatch]

G'day people, i've been on holidays enjoying fishing, sun and beer. It's a hard life, I know. :)Glad to see you had a nice Holiday-My 3 favourite pastimes as well.

Web, it is obvious that RT and CF are on the same servers, I am waiting for a phone call from those in the know why. Maybe the owners of both companies know each other? Maybe the webmaster decided to cash in on his privileged postion? Who knows? Everythings not black and white.Although not obvious to everyone it not's really that critical anymore as both are so intertwinned anyway.

The RCI connection wasn't a lie, because before it collasped, I was able to log onto the RCI website, with the same access as their members have. We may have to differ on this as all the information ponts to the contrary and we only have your word on the login similarities and RCI's feedback that there was no connection.

The owners of CF have spent a whole pile of money out of their own pocket buying holiday packages to give to their members. They have also found a new travel company, and the booking site should be up in a day or so. We will have to wait and see on this.

This does not sound like the actions of scammers, but I certainly agree though that business has not gone to plan.
Regards.The actions of scammers are self evident by the Conception, design and operation of a Pyramid Scheme with revolving travel they now have 2 pyramid schemes rolled into one.

RT now seem to have some CD (Pyramid Scheme Seminars I think) for sale no doubt explaining how good it is to give away money and recruit others to do the same and various downline building techniques.

Some Great Info from the RT FAQ:Can I request a refund?

There are absolutely no refunds as your money has been used to enter members into Clubfreedom. Also you have received the product you have paid for. Screams scam to me.

On a side note could all CF members who use a Credit Card to join please keep an eye on their statements as whether by Genuine error or design the payment processor has been reported in the past to be making multiple withdrawls.

[the middle road]

Web,
CF and RT are seperate entities until proven otherwise, and should not placed in the same basket. RT can do what they want. It is not "2 pyramid schemes rolled into one". A pyramid is different anyway, although I know we will may differ on that point.

RCI did have a connection with CF but only in Australia which was their downfall. I have posted that earlier, but you seemed to be intent on rubbishing my last post.

I am not anti matrixwatch and not on the CF payroll. Other CF members have told me that this type of site is full of negative losers with nothing else to do with their their time. Do I get swayed by that? No, because it is not true. I really am trying to stick to the facts and be the middle road as I've also said b4. Maybe my involvement in CF does tend to taint my posts somewhat, but you seem to be making some things up on limited information and maybe your posts are tainted too.

And this leads to another point I wanted to bring up and well as may be on this thread. CF is based on and an improve system of Canadian Diamond Traders. I can hardly find any information on the matrixwatch site except the obvious warnings. Why? Is it because many people have actually got diamonds and cash from this company and still continue to do so till this day?

Apparently according to the law, direct marking is illegal. People have always and will always try to shut down mlm companies. They can't. Some very successful and legitmate companies with high quality products use mlm and have been for more years than I care to remember. They will never be shut down and many upon many peoples life have been improved by these companies.

This also isn't a direct attack on you or this site, because God knows there really are shifty people and scams a plently out there, but not every business that uses different techniques from the norm are a pyramid scam.

Regards

[Arzel]

And this leads to another point I wanted to bring up and well as may be on this thread. CF is based on and an improve system of Canadian Diamond Traders. I can hardly find any information on the matrixwatch site except the obvious warnings. Why? Is it because many people have actually got diamonds and cash from this company and still continue to do so till this day?


Since CDT (http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4660&highlight=diamond+traders) is an onbious scam I don't see how CF can be an improvement on it...unless it is a better scam. I think you are confusing legitimate MLM's with pryamid schemes.

[Webwatch]

Web,
CF and RT are seperate entities until proven otherwise, and should not placed in the same basket. RT can do what they want. It is not "2 pyramid schemes rolled into one". A pyramid is different anyway, although I know we will may differ on that point.Something else we differ on, but like I said its not that critical as RT is dependant on CF unless when CF crashes RT finds another Scheme to cycle into.

RCI did have a connection with CF but only in Australia which was their downfall. I have posted that earlier, but you seemed to be intent on rubbishing my last post. Not at all I respect your views but whether they had a connection or not its in the past and CF will want to move away from this as fast as possible.

I am not anti matrixwatch and not on the CF payroll. Other CF members have told me that this type of site is full of negative losers with nothing else to do with their their time. Do I get swayed by that? No, because it is not true. I really am trying to stick to the facts and be the middle road as I've also said b4. Maybe my involvement in CF does tend to taint my posts somewhat, but you seem to be making some things up on limited information and maybe your posts are tainted too. It doesn't matter whether your pro or anti us and your CF members judgements are their own opinion 90%+ of them will never cycle anyway, of course they will always be welcome here to air their views at anytime they please. The information I have is only what CF has presented nothing made up although if being tainted means I'm not a fan of this type of scheme then I'm guilty.

And this leads to another point I wanted to bring up and well as may be on this thread. CF is based on and an improve system of Canadian Diamond Traders. I can hardly find any information on the matrixwatch site except the obvious warnings. Why? Is it because many people have actually got diamonds and cash from this company and still continue to do so till this day? A different program and yes it has outlasted most but its fate will be the same.

Apparently according to the law, direct marking is illegal. People have always and will always try to shut down mlm companies. They can't. Some very successful and legitmate companies with high quality products use mlm and have been for more years than I care to remember. They will never be shut down and many upon many peoples life have been improved by these companies. CF needs a product to be considered in the MLM category all their is at the moment is cash when members cycle unless the Holiday Packages materialize. RT has a product (Seminar CD) but as it can only be bought by those who are joining the Pyramid this in itself is a little dubious.

This also isn't a direct attack on you or this site, because God knows there really are shifty people and scams a plently out there, but not every business that uses different techniques from the norm are a pyramid scam.

Regards

RT & CF techniques are the norm for Pyramid schemes they can only prosper by promises of huge rewards and without the Matrix marketing stratergy they have nothing.

I respect your opinions and welcome your contributions-Although I'm starting to get the feeling your more heavily involved in this than your letting on, but thats fine.

[beeswax]

Hi Middle of The Road and Webwatch.
Mybe I'm one of those "Other CF members have told me that this type of site is full of negative losers with nothing else to do with their their time"
But I've been caught before, and have lost friendships as a result.
Nearly a week ago I wrote "I wish Traveller/OnlyWhenILarf would let us know how either/both meetings went with the MD!!!!"
Haven't heard from either.
I won't make a judgement................. but do yourself a favour and have a look at the hysteria being created at
http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286-250.html

[Webwatch]

Hi Beeswax,
This is a key time for CF & RT over at 'My Moneys Gone Forum' (MMG) as they all think they are getting into this early enough-don't get me wrong some of the team leaders over there may cycle or at least pretend they have to keep the hysteria up. Most of them are regulars and with the CDT similarity may bring some downlines over from other schemes to join CF.

I know its tempting to go over and post something like:
'Look folks this is a Pyramid Scheme and most of you are going to lose your money'
But you would get laughed off the thread and get called silly names like Negative Loser, Dream Stealer etc, as most of them know this is a typical run of the mill Pyramid Scheme anyway and are habitual players at these programs.
Few of the experienced ever complain when the program collapses they just look for the next one.
The real victims over there are the newbies (those with around 100 posts or less) who believe the hype and excitement and haven't a clue what CF really is.

Its all part of the game, the problem is some can't really afford to play.

[the middle road]

Alright, it's time to be straight down the line because my honesty and integrity sounds like it is about to be trashed by Webwatch.

I think CF has made a massive mistake in their prebusiness plans, one for which we are all suffering for. I am exremely pissed off that they haven't got a travel site up yet, and turning this into a money making scheme at the moment.

I have already seen the MMG forum on revolving travel and think it's a farst, full of hysteria and almost sickening, because they all seem to be greedy forum members who are only there to play any money making scheme that comes their way. I have a feeling there is something shonky about RT but that as far as I'll go.

It is obvious pyramids are involved in the marketing of this product, but I believe they are sustainstainable over a long period of time, I may be deluded but my feelings are normally correct.

I may never have logged into the RCI website, just looked at it, because my memory may be playing tricks on me after a few beers. There is no doubt though their was an RCI connection and I still believe their is one in one way or another from the information handed down to me from reliable sources.

I am not heavily involved in CF, as a matter of fact I only have two sign ups because I'm not going to market anything to anyone for a business that can't get it's **** together for nearly a month.

I can't be anymore honest than that. I believe though that CF really are going to get it together very soon, and when so, a profitable marketing venture can be taken on by us who belive in what were selling. Too right I can't wait to see the money.

By the way on on the top of the feeder table if anyones interested.

[Webwatch]

Alright, it's time to be straight down the line because my honesty and integrity sounds like it is about to be trashed by Webwatch.This will never happen as I said before I respect your opinoins and welcome your contributions, I also mentioned this would never be personal just comments and critiques of CF & RT and what they are presenting at the moment.

I think CF has made a massive mistake in their prebusiness plans, one for which we are all suffering for. I am exremely pissed off that they haven't got a travel site up yet, and turning this into a money making scheme at the moment. I think their business plans are in line with every other Pyramid scheme that I've seen come and go- unless of course the owners haven't done enough research and aren't aware that CF & RT display every red flag that a Pyramid scheme does.

I have already seen the MMG forum on revolving travel and think it's a farst, full of hysteria and almost sickening, because they all seem to be greedy forum members who are only there to play any money making scheme that comes their way. I have a feeling there is something shonky about RT but that as far as I'll go. Thats all MMG is therefore to promote one scheme or another and build downlines this will get stronger before it collapses unless CF come up with a viable product that can be resold by the membership to at least make the program look legit (well in Utah anyway).

It is obvious pyramids are involved in the marketing of this product, but I believe they are sustainstainable over a long period of time, I may be deluded but my feelings are normally correct.Trust your feelings is all any of us can do but these feelings may change and adapt overtime.

I may never have logged into the RCI website, just looked at it, because my memory may be playing tricks on me after a few beers. There is no doubt though their was an RCI connection and I still believe their is one in one way or another from the information handed down to me from reliable sources.Probably best if I don't comment as Beers have sometimes lead me astray also.

I still believe CF is still yet to peak but unless they can introduce some resaleable products for the membership I have no option but to consider CF a Pyramid Scheme, of course this is a personal point of view and whether you agree or not at least bear it in mind.

[topguy]

I have been in clubfreedom scince it started and have a lot of people in my downline. I think club freedom is great. This is the first time i have ever made money in a network. My grandma who is 74 and on a pension made money as well.

The best thing i like about it is that everyone has the same opportunity to make money no matter where they come in the network.

Also it is a one time investment and there is no stock to handle or money coming out of my account every month.

Also there are only two gentleman running the club and not some huge company. This makes it a pleasure to be a member of club freedom.

[the middle road]

Interesting, 55 people on this site at the moment, and 50 when it shut down due to ISP problems. I honestly don't remember anywhere near that amount at one time since i've been posting. Tell me if I'm wrong. It only leads me to the conclusion, if I'm right (and I'm often not, lol), that we may have an audience, and in the future it may not be just us sitting around chewing the fat.

Anyway topguy reminded me of a point that I was going to say. These two gentlemen aren't hiding behind computers in Siberia creating a scam. They are in the public eye, regulary holding meetings in Brisbane and explaining what's going on in this company. The action of scammers definately not. As I said before I wish I could go to these meetings to hear they had to say 1st hand, but I live too far away and rely on 2nd hand information.

The travel site was hopefully meant to be up today from what I was told, but alas it is not so. C'mon, give me a product to sell soon please.

[Webwatch]

Hi Middle Road, maybe theres more contributors waiting in the wings to join this thread-of course there maybe other schemes of interest though.

CF leaders holding public meetings who'd have thought it ;)
I wonder if they will still be around to refund peoples money who never cycle.

I'm lookin forward to this travel site also.
-------------------------------
I almost forgot to welcome Topguy to the thread nice to have a new view on things.

I have been in clubfreedom scince it started and have a lot of people in my downline. I think club freedom is great. This is the first time i have ever made money in a network. My grandma who is 74 and on a pension made money as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the only way to make money in this is to cycle and receive the $6000, and your granny has also made money as well.;) So have you both cycled then?, presumably not or you would be alot more excited.

As far as I know CF or RT don't give any referal commisions (now theres an idea) its just a pure Pyramid at the moment with a big payout if you cycle.

The best thing i like about it is that everyone has the same opportunity to make money no matter where they come in the network.Well not quite, you will always be behind those who joined before you in your upline and will always be dependant on those below you to recruit. Although I agree the amount you can make is the same for everyone.

Also it is a one time investment and there is no stock to handle or money coming out of my account every month. True unless some of this Pyramid Schemes members decide to buy more positions in order to push themselves towards cycling quicker, this normally happens when your on the main board or near the top levels of the program.

Also there are only two gentleman running the club and not some huge company. This makes it a pleasure to be a member of club freedom.Two gentlemen :) anyone know their names or track record in running an investment/Travel scheme.
The pleasure is all theirs I'm sure.

[the middle road]

Of course being at the top of the tables will ensure a faster payment. I have heard these guys names before but forget now, but will find out easily if you are really interested.

By the way, I was thinking about buying new positions to push myself through faster, just thinking of course. Talking about experience,

[the middle road]

sorry bout that,
Talking about experience, many people take on careers that they've had no experience in, and end up very successful. I'm not saying these blokes are inexperienced, but it does not lead to business failure if it is the case.

[Webwatch]

I agree experience isn't that crucial when starting up a new business venture, aptitude, effort, commitment, the willingness to learn and succeed and a sprinkling of luck are equally if not more important.

I find it hard to consider CF a genuine business but any info on its founders might be usefull, even if its just to help someone do their due diligence who is little nervous.

Although a previous program called Kanosis supposedly had some very experienced execuitves on board but still struggled. (sorry off topic).

[elpedro]

It is possible to ovetake your upline. I jumped my sponser and am now on the stand-by position on the main board with another position at the planner position on the main board.

[topguy]

I am more than happy to email you my statment, my email address is **PM for this info**

[topguy]

Well done elpedro see if you can bet him out of the main board

[Webwatch]

Hi Elpedro, thats interesting- did a split occur which put you in a different matrix than your sponsor. I may be wrong on this but did CF say you are tied to your downline and they will follow you through as you may witness a see saw effect as your sponsor mysteriously appears above you later on.

Its hard to tell whats really happening but please keep us posted.

[Webwatch]

Hi Topguy,
So have you cycled then.

[elpedro]

I jumped several people on the main board as I had qualified with two from my downline aslo on the main board. Others above me had not yet done the same.

If I cycle off the main board before my sponsor I will follow his upline to the next main board. He will also do the same but will still appear below me.

Works exactly the same with the feeder boards. I beat my sponsor to the main board, therfor he then missed out on having me qualify him on the main board. My qualification the rolled up to his upline, in this case this was the same person so he was not to worried about it.

Also the fact that I have overqualified my position on the main board so from the up line assist he beneifted from the third person in my dowline to reach the main board by having them qualify him.

It is quite complex and confusing but the system rewards those who attract more people to club freedom. By jumping on the main board I effectivley cut out 64 people having to sign up.

[elpedro]

Just recieved an email form CF;

News Update about our Travel Provider


Hello Champion of the World,


At Last! We are now able to give you some much anticipated details regarding our Travel Provider.


First; Their company name: WHOLESALE LEISURE HOLIDAYS


And the fantastic news is that this Travel Company is
going to provide to you our valued members a first
class product and service that will cause us all to
be proud to promote Clubfreedom, a company that is
able to offer a genuine “Stand Alone Product”


The feature benefits:


The $150.00 Discount Certificate you purchase when
joining Clubfreedom entitles the bearer to access 7
nights accommodation at up to 1500 Resorts around
the world for a wholesale fixed price. The prices
below are less the $150 so these amounts are all you
pay when booking your Holiday.


This certificate incorporates the following holiday
type accommodation choices:


- VIP Traveller Voucher US$450*
7 nights accommodation in a studio to 1 bedroom
apartment (over 1000 resorts)


- VIP Traveller Plus Voucher US$525*
7 nights accommodation in a studio to 3 bedroom
apartment (over 1300 resorts)


- VIP Traveller Elite Voucher US$675*
7 nights accommodation in a studio to 3 bedroom
apartment (over 1500 resorts)


These are genuine discounted rates of up to 60%
exclusive to Clubfreedom members.


As you will agree the choice of product range is far
better as it will accommodate for singles as well as
families now so we are grateful to WLH for providing
a wider options and prices for our members.


Ok! This all sounds great! BUT when will the travel
site be available for booking you ask?


WLH sincerely apologise for the delay, as their web
site creation is being specified for our members
around the globe and the task of building the inventory
into it has proven a formidable task. But they have
promised us it will be available ASAP this week. We
will send an email to you the instant it’s available
to view.


Just one last thing...


There is now less than 2 days remaining for you to
decide whether you want to participate in our
exciting new partnership with Revolving Travel.


This really is an incredible tool to further enhance
your Clubfreedom business. Click on the link below
to view the special page we have created for you.




Please note:
All members who choose to participate in Revolving
Travel will be in a holding database until we start
the import on Monday morning. So, therefore, no login
details or welcome email will be sent out until then.


Again we earnestly thank you for your patience and
loyalty as we endeavour to provide you an exciting
product and business opportunity.


Wishing you all Happy Holidays!
The management Team


P.S. Our daily member growth has doubled in the last
2 weeks as we have broken the 10,000 mark! And
have many happy Travellers cycling daily from
all countries!

[topguy]

It is good to see that club freeom has a great product for us to promote. You should wait and see the movement over the next 24 - 72 hours - there will be heaps. Good luck everyone

[Webwatch]

Thanks for the info elpedro.
So by joining CF direct and paying your $150 you now get a discount voucher worth $150 off these Holiday packages.

A nice smokescreen for the real reason to join which is of course to cycle through to get the big $6000 payout at the end but none the less at least CF have something to sell.

As we have been here before with the RCI connection I wonder if anyone knows the registered address of 'WHOLESALE LEISURE HOLIDAYS' so at least we can have a look to see if they excist, of course if they are brand new its understandable theres no reference to them yet on the internet.

Does this also mean that RT members when they cycle into CF will receive this $150 voucher.

[the middle road]

Is it a smokescreen though Web? How much money do you think this company is saving on advertising, marketing etc. People can market the product for them. Of course a lot people want the $6000 (equates to over $8000 in aud), but those who get it quickly will be those with skill and an apptitude in marketing, but what's new? If I got a job in marketing and I wasn't pulling my weight, I'd be fired. Here though, others who aren't so good at marketing still have a very good chance to receive the rewards due to the way the matrix works. People have to at least put in some effort if they want some compensation, because there is no such thing as a free lunch in any area of life.

I'll tell you from what I've heard, these actually are RCI packages, just prepurchased and then resold to clubfreedom members under a different name. That will put those RCI members who aren't Australian (well, basically Americans) minds at ease, that CF members aren't getting a better deal than them (which we were/maybe are now). Which of course was the whole problem in the first place.

You bring up a good point about RT members getting the voucher when they cycle, and after some thought, I'd say they probably would.

As usual, these are just my opinions and I am happy to be corrected. Hey, everyone is entitled to my opinion, lol.

[Webwatch]

Without knowing more about these packages its hard to speculate whether they even excist so it would be unfair of me to read to much into this at the moment.

As far as marketing goes word of mouth marketing is definatley the most cost effective and is the nature of this program to recruit, recruit, recruit; up untill now there was very little to sell.

From a marketing point of view its much easier to sell a $150 voucher for $59.95 (RT) than a $150 for $150 (CF) so could this mean that CF will seemlessly merge into RT and become one program.

Of course its incredibly easy to sell a $150 voucher with the promise of $6000 by just recruiting others to do the same, even though most will never see this $6000 at least its an incentive.

There will always be those that when approached to buy a $150 voucher with the chance of getting $6000 will just say ('Hang on this is one of those Pyramid Schemes that I keep hearing about') and not want to know about it, but I have a feeling I'm in the minority on this.

If they truly have 10,000 members at the moment this could be a lot bigger than I anticipated.

[the middle road]

Without any other comment on your post Web,this is going to be big, really big, and I mean big.

[Webwatch]

Just looking at the thread views its nearly 2,500 (but most of them might be me).
There could be a lot of victims in this already but they just don't know it yet.

Nothings changed at the moment for me to change my sceptical standpoint but thats just my opinion of course.

[the middle road]

I'm being funny here, but from half the posts I've read so far, maybe we should make this the official Clubfreedom forum. lol

[Webwatch]

Eventually when it all collapses we may become the main CF/RT forum on the web.
But its early days yet.

[the middle road]

I think we posted around the same time Web, but obviously people are upset with the lack of dots and crosses this business showed in it's beginning. If CF are lying to us, I'll be a monkeys uncle and a regular poster on this site on any scam coming our way. Actually, I'm here for the long run whatever, because the world needs a site like this.

[the middle road]

By the way Web, I PMed you, and since your online, it's probaby a good time to look at it while we're "chewing the fat".

[beeswax]

Nearly two months has elapsed since an enquiry of mine evolved into this thread.
The guy who was so keen to get me involved had flown to the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia................ and is now no longer spruiking the scam's benefits.
He is avoiding most of the people he did get involved.
WHY?
PLEASE show me ONE person who has got $$$$'s placed in a new credit card!!!!!
The whole thing is a sham, and now a bloody brilliant excuse to promote cheap, un-occupied, time-share resorts.
But, as a couple of you guys state.................. there will ALWAYS be those who will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!

[Webwatch]

Hi Beeswax
Its hard to predict the duration of this as a lot dependant on the interest and effort members put in.
Even with the RCI error this did not halt the progress much.

I believe eventually CF will collapse from the bottom up or when the founders see the point in which interest is diminishing and the time is right to close.

[topguy]

Hi guys

You guys have got it so wrong. You dont even know what u r talking about most of the time. You should understand things before you make comments. What are your user names in CF. If you dont mind telling me and i will see if i can help you. I can show u my statement as i have told u in a previous post but u didnt email me. how many people have u put into CF your selves?

Regards

Guy

[coralal]

Hi guys

You guys have got it so wrong. You dont even know what u r talking about most of the time. You should understand things before you make comments. What are your user names in CF. If you dont mind telling me and i will see if i can help you. I can show u my statement as i have told u in a previous post but u didnt email me. how many people have u put into CF your selves?

Regards

Guy

I would not say we do not know what we are talking about. I have been in the industry for 28 years, consulted to over 50 companies and have built 12 marketing plans, so when you say that you guys do not know what we are talking about, think about that statement again.

If you want to PM me, I can give you many reasons that CF is a complete momey game and will eventually be investigated and shut down by the FTC.

[the middle road]

Beeswax,

topguy offered to send anyone his statement.

Maybe it is a "bloody brilliant excuse to promote cheap, un-occupied, time-share resorts", but who cares. If I can stay nearly anywhere in the world in a resort for 7 days for $450 for a week, bring it on.

Unfortuantley I'm the middle road and have to say this:

At this very moment in time, without a travel site up

-we have had $150 taken from us non refundable for something we can't see at the moment
-we are promoting a matrix scheme with no product which is illegal

In a court of law, if it got that far (and it won't), they would eventually track down the person offering these deals. From my information, these deals are genuine. It would then be thrown out of court. The members are loyal and waiting and in my opinion, not suckers at all. If you knew what was going on, you'd understand what I am saying here.

Problems, yes.
Scam, no

[elpedro]

Nearly two months has elapsed since an enquiry of mine evolved into this thread.
The guy who was so keen to get me involved had flown to the Gold Coast in Queensland, Australia................ and is now no longer spruiking the scam's benefits.
He is avoiding most of the people he did get involved.
WHY?
PLEASE show me ONE person who has got $$$$'s placed in a new credit card!!!!!
The whole thing is a sham, and now a bloody brilliant excuse to promote cheap, un-occupied, time-share resorts.
But, as a couple of you guys state.................. there will ALWAYS be those who will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity!


No one gets money put into a new credit card, it is actually a debit card. If you want to cycle then get out there and promote it. There's no point whinging about losing your money if you don't have the abilty to recruit a strong downline.

[Webwatch]

Hi guys

You guys have got it so wrong. You dont even know what u r talking about most of the time. You should understand things before you make comments. What are your user names in CF. If you dont mind telling me and i will see if i can help you. I can show u my statement as i have told u in a previous post but u didnt email me. how many people have u put into CF your selves?

Regards

Guy
Hi Guy,
I hear this so often now that I almost expect it.
First tell me what I have got wrong.
Is it that CF isn't a scam?
Well time and time again its been proven how Pyramid Schemes are scams and CF is doing an excellent job of imitating one.

As far as user names goes I don't have one -shock horror how can I possibly comment if I'm not a member, well thats quite easy see sentance above.

Why hasn't anyone e-mailed to see your statement-maybe because in this magical age of computers anything can be faked.

So tell us your user name and maybe other members of CF can find out if what your telling us is true about your 2 cyles and your grannys as well.

Guy- To be quite honest I dont care if you have cycled or not, some have to but a huge majority never will.

As far as how many people I have put into CF- I honestly don't know, hopefully none but freewill is such a bummer-hopefully those that have joined after visiting this thread have at least some understanding of what they are getting into and don't find themselves buying multiple positions to try and cycle quicker, $60 doesn't seem a lot but when members start spending a few thousand $'s because they think they might cycle in time for Christmas this could be a big problem.

[Webwatch]

No one gets money put into a new credit card, it is actually a debit card. If you want to cycle then get out there and promote it. There's no point whinging about losing your money if you don't have the abilty to recruit a strong downline.Wow I need to post quicker I can't keep up.

How does this debit card work then (Topguy should know best he's had 2 ;) ), so do they load it with $6000 and you just go to an ATM and withdraw it or can you buy goods with it. i.e. is it a Visa debit card or something similar.

Your last sentance says it all recruit, recruit, recruit and if you don't you won't cycle ergo a Pyramid Scheme.

[the middle road]

By the way topguy, i don't even know what your'e talking about in the last post. This isn't a Clubfreedom free for all forum, to say what whatever sales pitch comes into your mind (although you can and this site will let you speak). This is Matrixwatch, a site designed to warn people of oncoming scams. If you want to talk further about this please PM me, or continue to post publicly and bear the wrath that may happen.

[the middle road]

Wow web,
as I was typing, I missed all of the last posts

[elpedro]

You are correct web, the debit card alows you to withdraw funds from any cirruss atm worldwide. In Australia you can do this at any Commonwealth bank ATM. I have heard there is a daily limit when using the Commonwealth machines of AU$2000 so you will have to go back 4 days in a row.

I don't think club freedom hides the fact that in order to cycle quickly you need to recruit others to join and help them do the same.

[coralal]

Beeswax,

topguy offered to send anyone his statement.

Maybe it is a "bloody brilliant excuse to promote cheap, un-occupied, time-share resorts", but who cares. If I can stay nearly anywhere in the world in a resort for 7 days for $450 for a week, bring it on.

Unfortuantley I'm the middle road and have to say this:

At this very moment in time, without a travel site up

-we have had $150 taken from us non refundable for something we can't see at the moment
-we are promoting a matrix scheme with no product which is illegal

In a court of law, if it got that far (and it won't), they would eventually track down the person offering these deals. From my information, these deals are genuine. It would then be thrown out of court. The members are loyal and waiting and in my opinion, not suckers at all. If you knew what was going on, you'd understand what I am saying here.

Problems, yes.
Scam, no

Could you please forward me the names of the Lawryers that are handling CF and could you please give me CF'S registration and licensing in each of the United States.

By the way, does CF operate outside the States.

[coralal]

You are correct web, the debit card alows you to withdraw funds from any cirruss atm worldwide. In Australia you can do this at any Commonwealth bank ATM. I have heard there is a daily limit when using the Commonwealth machines of AU$2000 so you will have to go back 4 days in a row.

I don't think club freedom hides the fact that in order to cycle quickly you need to recruit others to join and help them do the same.

The reason that CF is a complete Ponzi Scheme is because the only way you make money is by recruiting and there is no retail product sold at all. You need to have a 70/30 rule in the sale of product to have a legitimate company ( only one stipulation of many ). You also have to be registered and obide by the DSA ( Direct Sellers Association ) requirements in regards to the Retail sales of products.

So my question to you is this, Do you retail any CF products and are you registered with the DSA.

[topguy]

It is true all documents can be made up with the help of computers. So how would u like me to show you that I got paid. My user name is the same topguy in clubfreedom. Your effort equals rewards.

These threads are not just for negative comments about matrix when people find something and works then you should let other people know.

I know it works and i am more than happy to prove it too you.

In regards to the card you can get $2500 USD out of a atm a day. You get a ecashtrust account where your money is held untill you transfer it to you idbill card. The two companies are seperate companies.

Every time i have used the card i have used it at a ANZ or a westpac machine and had no problems.

The retail product is a holiday voucher. There are plenty of companies in Australia that sells holiday voucher like Accor group and thomas cook just to name 2. That is all club freedom is doing. But by being a member of club freedom you get your vouchers at a discounted rate of $150 off the price.

I guess i dont like people baging something that i know is working well. If you have some evidence of CF being a scam then i would really like to know and i will pay you for the information. I have been networking all my adult life and i have seen companies come and go i have lost money as well.

But thie is great - sure they are having a few problems but it is a new company and which new company doesnt have a few problems in the begining.

Cash + Travel = Freedom

Regards

Guy

[the middle road]

topguy,
I have typed in your username in the CF website "topguy". "Error, the users board can not be found". I tried all sorts of combinations of your name. What the hell are you doing BSing to us on this site.

Coralal,
the founders are Australian, their head office in Hongkong. I have no idea who the lawyers are, but I did find out the names of the owners today. After long careful consideration, I decided to not post the names, for reasons known only to me. I'm not lying.

Anyway where do Americans get off? It isn't always about you, and the laws of the USA are the laws of the USA only. I've seen so many times in forums people thinking Americans laws are the laws of the world. I may be jumping on my highhorse here, you may be doing the ground work for Americans, which I applaud you for. I am probably coming accross rude, but I don't know how to explain it otherwise, and probably it is a discussion for another forum.

CF can't wait for the Americans to jump on board, and if I have been told the correct information, the RT site was basically set up for them, because they are happier to part with $60 instead of $150.

I still don't know of the integrity of RT, but certainly do with CF. I've probably said too much this time, and I am sorry if i've insulted anyone, but your dealing with an Aussie, and we can't help it sometimes.

[topguy]

Most people in club freedom has a few positions and they all have a number behind the username so if you write topguy1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7. I have bought other positions under other people but these are my main positions.

Hope this cleans up any confussion.

Regards

Guy

[the middle road]

OK, I see it now mate. thankyou for that.
It leads me to another point, people really are getting money, I know of one myself. So is this a scam or a scheme?

[Webwatch]

Although both words are fairly similar in defining these types of programs scam conjurs up a much harsher definition.

Is CF/RT as bad as those phishing e-mails we all get and other general money making opportunities that appear in our inbox on a regular basis-well I would have to conceed at present it isn't.

But as the survival of CF/RT is totally dependant on acquiring new members and present members investing more cash to acquire more positions in order to survive it falls well and truly into the Pyramid Scheme category which in turn makes it a scam in my opinion.

Of course all business depend on new customers as well as present customers returning but CF isn't a business its a money game buying a $150 discount voucher for $150 isn't really a product of any kind, but we will have to wait and see what www.wholesaleleisureholidays.com come up with, if thats the right web address.

Lets not kid ourselves here-Most of us know that not everyone will cycle and when this collapses there will be a lot out of pocket with this venture.

Using the 'it wont happen to me' mentality and being convinced you will cycle won't help, only by recruiting can this huge payout ever be acheived and even then do you really think you have any control over that, as admin can place anyone anywhere on the boards.

No one likes to be told the business venture they are participating in is a scam as the main goal is the $6000 who cares how many don't make it as long as they do.

So how long will this last-well a few pages ago I said 4 months based on the information I had at the time and as nothing has changed much I'm sticking to that time frame.

So CF/RT:
Scam= In my opinion probably
Pyramid Scheme= In my opinion Definately

[Arzel]

Most people in club freedom has a few positions and they all have a number behind the username so if you write topguy1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7. I have bought other positions under other people but these are my main positions.

Hope this cleans up any confussion.

Regards

Guy

The fact that you (and apparently most) have multiple positions within CF is clear indication that this is nothing more than a ponzi scheme and therefore illegal, since it is being treated as a ponzi scheme. These types of schemes are illegal in all developed countries, and as far as I know most countries throughout the world.

If it was not a ponzi scheme there would be no purpose or reason to have multiple positions. This type of response to a particular scheme is very common within the matrix scam world. It is well known that the best, easiest way to make money on these scams is to obtain several positions early in the scam.

Thank you for answering once and for all what CF is, and that is a Matrix/Ponzi scam with a token product of marginal value (this is what makes it illegal in the US/UK/ and AUS). The primary goal is to cycle through the matrix, and the token product is purely to give the illusion of a legitimate company.

[beeswax]

Arzel,

Your comments are like a breath of fresh air!
(I think Web is being fairly liberal with his 4 months)

[Webwatch]

Maybe I'm being a bit cautious with 4 months but the beauty of the internet is that the admin of these programs can make them look like there still working even when they are on the verge of collapse.
They will use shilling techniques to convince the membership everything is working fine.

As Arzel points out the multiple positions only help at the beginning and the admin will already have an unlimited number of positions they can use at anytime.

For the average member multiple positions is like buying lottery tickets with exactly the same numbers as your not increasing your chances of winning just spreading the same odds.

It may look good to say spend $600 on 10 positions but in the Pyramid Scheme world the rules are totally different.

As far as legality's go I think most legal structures are based on the English system with a multitude of variations and precedents to add relevance to each countries social dynamic. With the exception of Utah which seems to be branching out on its own in the MLM world. But I don't think this would pass even Utahs relaxed Pyramid Scheme definitions.

[coralal]

The fact that you (and apparently most) have multiple positions within CF is clear indication that this is nothing more than a ponzi scheme and therefore illegal, since it is being treated as a ponzi scheme. These types of schemes are illegal in all developed countries, and as far as I know most countries throughout the world.

If it was not a ponzi scheme there would be no purpose or reason to have multiple positions. This type of response to a particular scheme is very common within the matrix scam world. It is well known that the best, easiest way to make money on these scams is to obtain several positions early in the scam.

Thank you for answering once and for all what CF is, and that is a Matrix/Ponzi scam with a token product of marginal value (this is what makes it illegal in the US/UK/ and AUS). The primary goal is to cycle through the matrix, and the token product is purely to give the illusion of a legitimate company.

In any legitimate licensed business ( Especially in Australia ) it is Illegal to have multiple positions in a Networking Business. The reason I know this is because I have testified at a International Trial into a multiple position Ponzi Scheme called Skybiz. So do not come here and tell us that it is legal.

By the way you still have not answered my Question, CAN YOU SIGN UP MEMBERS IN THE UNITED STATES. PLEASE ANSWER ME.

[Arzel]

Arzel,

Your comments are like a breath of fresh air!
(I think Web is being fairly liberal with his 4 months)

I was fairly confident it was a illegal scheme from the beginning, but the revelation that most members have multiple positions within the matrix was confirmation of the fact.

Web is simply more diplomatic than I. :)

[the middle road]

Coralal,
Yes you can sign up members in the Untied States. I am sorry for my almost racist outburst in my last post. What the hell was I thinking. I definately should not have posted anything like that on this forum.

Anyway, it's obvious I can sway sometimes to being positive CF. But what I haven't said, is I sometimes I also sway to anti CF comments on this site.

I know people who have got a regular income for the last 20 years(don't pull out the "is it an income story") from business that their friends told them were pyramid scams. They told them they were crazy idiots and they have no idea. But who's laughing now. Imagine not having to work the rest of your life. My friend of mine who is coming to visit Adelaide at Christmas is going to use his travel voucher from WLH (actually RCI) when he books accomadation, and will therefore be saving money.

To be honest at the moment my head is absolutely spinning, because I just don't know what to think anymore. Legimate, illegal, scam, scheme , rip off, good deals, pyramid or not pyramid. Well, actually it it a pyramid, at least I can answer that one. Sometimes I think, "at least I bought 2 postions early." But at what cost to other people if is all a scam. How long will this last. 4 months, 4 years, 20 years? My friend said he felt sick in his stomach about CF the other night and couldn't sleep. I know he is a bit of a worry wart, but I am now upset with myself for joining him up if this is the reaction that has occured.

I am still the middle road and I'll try to be impartial when posting.

[topguy]

The reason why i bought more than the usual positions is so that i could set up my business the best way i thought at the time and i want the holiday vouchers as well. Even tho i dont have them yet i am looking forward to use them when i receive them. I am interested more in your views in why buying more than 1 is Illegal. At the end of the day the Australian authorities has not closed it down and has known of club freedom scince early september.

It is avalible in the USA and any where in the word. As far as i know there are members in over 20 countries.

[beeswax]

Top Guy/The Middle Road/Arzel/Web.................... whether it's 'closed down' or not in Australia is irrrelevant.

But it WILL BE as our Australian Competition & Consumer Commisssion (ACCC) will ensure {our coralal knows her stuff}

In Australia the product is paramount.
If the objective is to recruit............ you're stuffed!

WHY SUBJECT NEW ACQUAINTANCES, YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO IMPLODE AND CAUSE HEARTACHE GALORE ???????

[the middle road]

Topguy,
I would say the Australian authorities can't shut it down is because the head office is in Hong Kong, and probably there on purpose.

Beeswax
Your not stuffed in Australia if you have to recruit because there have been businesses doing that for a long time.

My posts are my opinion only, and I am definately not an expert in this field. There are others here with a much greater understanding of this than myself.

[Webwatch]

Just speculating a bit but I doubt the owners of CF are anywhere near Hong Kong and the phone number probably forwards to a different continent probably to a house or rented accomodation with only 2 or 3 people in it.

Way back on page 2 of this thread I did a little digging into the address that was given and they even got their own building picture wrong of course they wouldn't expect anyone to check.

When deception is the main objective scammers often find it hard to get even the smallest details correct and mislead even when there is no need to.

[sisco50]

"So CF/RT:
Scam= In my opinion probably
Pyramid Scheme= In my opinion Definately"

That's about as fair an opinion as one can have at this stage. I totally agree, while we wait and see. As with all scams/schemes/programs etc., there is a time frame that has to pass before opinions become truths or falsehoods.

[sisco50]

I was fairly confident it was a illegal scheme from the beginning, but the revelation that most members have multiple positions within the matrix was confirmation of the fact.

Web is simply more diplomatic than I. :)

Being diplomatic is good and I wish I had that talent. :)

[coralal]

topguy,
I have typed in your username in the CF website "topguy". "Error, the users board can not be found". I tried all sorts of combinations of your name. What the hell are you doing BSing to us on this site.

Coralal,
the founders are Australian, their head office in Hongkong. I have no idea who the lawyers are, but I did find out the names of the owners today. After long careful consideration, I decided to not post the names, for reasons known only to me. I'm not lying.

Anyway where do Americans get off? It isn't always about you, and the laws of the USA are the laws of the USA only. I've seen so many times in forums people thinking Americans laws are the laws of the world. I may be jumping on my highhorse here, you may be doing the ground work for Americans, which I applaud you for. I am probably coming accross rude, but I don't know how to explain it otherwise, and probably it is a discussion for another forum.

CF can't wait for the Americans to jump on board, and if I have been told the correct information, the RT site was basically set up for them, because they are happier to part with $60 instead of $150.

I still don't know of the integrity of RT, but certainly do with CF. I've probably said too much this time, and I am sorry if i've insulted anyone, but your dealing with an Aussie, and we can't help it sometimes.

As you can see you posted earlier that the company was based in Australia and Hong King , so now you say you can sign up members in United States. American laws are not laws of the world, but they are the laws of The UInited States as well as Canadian Laws are the laws of Canada in the country I live.

So my question again is simply this, being an International company based outside the United States is CF licensed to do business in the United States ( u should know, you said United States Citizens can sign up ) and where is their head office in the United States and who are their Lawryers so as I can call them and check them out. I do all my background work first before I look into joining any company ( my 28 years of being in the industry has taught me this )

Next Question, can you sign up Canadians please.

[coralal]

Top Guy/The Middle Road/Arzel/Web.................... whether it's 'closed down' or not in Australia is irrrelevant.

But it WILL BE as our Australian Competition & Consumer Commisssion (ACCC) will ensure {our coralal knows her stuff}

In Australia the product is paramount.
If the objective is to recruit............ you're stuffed!

WHY SUBJECT NEW ACQUAINTANCES, YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO IMPLODE AND CAUSE HEARTACHE GALORE ???????

Thanks for the compliment.

I am a guy by the way and by does not mean BI. LOL

[the middle road]

So my question again is simply this, being an International company based outside the United States is CF licensed to do business in the United States ( u should know, you said United States Citizens can sign up ) and where is their head office in the United States and who are their Lawryers so as I can call them and check them out. I do all my background work first before I look into joining any company ( my 28 years of being in the industry has taught me this )

Next Question, can you sign up Canadians please.

Honestly, Coralal, I've already said sorry for that comment about American Laws. You would know more than me about laws relating to this scam/scheme/business whatever you like to call it. I am not an emplyee of Clubfreedom and I how would I have any idea about if they are licensed to do anything in any country.

I'm just a new poster learning about this whole antimatrix thing, throwing in opinions I see fit. All I know is you can sign up members nearly anywhere in the world. I heard you can sign up Americans, and in MY OPINION ONLY, probably Canada as well.

I hear they have a few offices around the world from 2ND HAND INFORMATION, including Australia, England, HongKong and the USA.

Your'e the expert apparently, so go track the office down in the USA, and ask all these questions to them yourself. There might not be an office there, if somebody has told me the incorrect information.

I hope your understand this is only my 1st time being a member of a Matrix scheme, and do not understand how these laws work.

[sisco50]

"Unlimited Positions

Unlimited Cycles!

Unlimited Cash Payouts!

Unlimited Vacations!"


The above is enough for me to forget it and go on to something else. I saw that in trying to find a USA office for Club Freedom.


"REVOLVING TRAVEL
I was a Clubfreedom member before being exposed to Revolving Travel. ... You just can't go wrong with a ONE TIME payment of ONLY $59.95. Ken Crites, Ohio, USA ...www.revolvingtravel.com - 11k - Cached - More from this site"


Revolving Travel claims to be partnered with Club Freedom and they mention Ohio, USA. Does not mean there is an office in the USA but is possible. Does being partnered count for anything? I don't know. :(

[Webwatch]

I still believe Revolving Travel and Club freedom are the same people just using a mini matrix with a lower price point to join the bigger CF Matrix.

RT suddenley emerged shortly after the RCI connection was found to be missleading (slight understatement).

With all the Unlimited possibilities they must think there is an unlimited number of potential victims.

[sisco50]

I still believe Revolving Travel and Club freedom are the same people just using a mini matrix with a lower price point to join the bigger CF Matrix.

RT suddenley emerged shortly after the RCI connection was found to be missleading (slight understatement).

With all the Unlimited possibilities they must think there is an unlimited number of potential victims.

And don't forget the most important thing claimed by RT...

"Your Earning Potential is Unlimited!"

That must mean there is a never ending supply of gullible people just waiting to sign up under you. Yeah, right! :(

[beeswax]

I know I'm a bitch, but I justr had to post this off My Moneys Gone site>>>>>.QUOTE(redzalez @ Nov 7 2006, 10:08 PM)

Has anyone reached the 6k mark? What are the current cycling times? I like this but as far as recruiting goes i suck.




I know a few on our team are set to cycle at Clubfreedom and earn the 6k so I am sure there have been some that have. Cycling times can never be accurately judged because it depends on your efforts, the efforts of the people on the CF table you land on, etc. But the great thing about RT and the CF opportunity is that it is a ONE TIME payment of only $59.95 for RT so you do not have to worry about monthly fees as we build this together. Don't worry about sucking at recruiting. Just about everyone here would be a great sponsor and guide you on various ways to get people. We even started our own forum just for that purpose. Pick someone and sign up with them. You won't be sorry!


Ken

[Webwatch]

Just pay your $59.95 and don't worry about a thing this great team will help you recruit new victims, buy telling them the same thing over and over again.

This one time $59.95 soon turns into multiple $59.95's untill eventually the whole thing collapses.

[coralal]

I know I'm a bitch, but I justr had to post this off My Moneys Gone site>>>>>.QUOTE(redzalez @ Nov 7 2006, 10:08 PM)

Has anyone reached the 6k mark? What are the current cycling times? I like this but as far as recruiting goes i suck.




I know a few on our team are set to cycle at Clubfreedom and earn the 6k so I am sure there have been some that have. Cycling times can never be accurately judged because it depends on your efforts, the efforts of the people on the CF table you land on, etc. But the great thing about RT and the CF opportunity is that it is a ONE TIME payment of only $59.95 for RT so you do not have to worry about monthly fees as we build this together. Don't worry about sucking at recruiting. Just about everyone here would be a great sponsor and guide you on various ways to get people. We even started our own forum just for that purpose. Pick someone and sign up with them. You won't be sorry!


Ken

This is why CF is a complete scam, because it totally relies on the recruitment of others to cycle and make any money with no product being sold on a regular basis. Let me tell you all this, if thee is no product being bought except for one time, the company will never survive and the only ones that will make money are the ones that got in ealy and recruited.

Get your heads screwed on and wake up to these scams that have been around for years.

[the middle road]

Um, I don't know what do say. I PMed topguy for his payment information and promised him I wouldn't say any thing if he didn't want me too. Just a quick message asking about the statement , and then a long spiel about the desperrados on this site.

heres the text part:


Dear topguy,Congratulations!You have just cycled off a main board and been awarded a $3500 Travel Certificate plus $3500 spending money (less $50 admin fee).Your cash will be available in your eCash virtual wallet account within 7 days.To view your travel certificate and to book your vacation, please login to your Clubfreedom Website.Clubfreedom.

Dear topguy,We have just created for you a virtual wallet, in which your Clubfreedom funds will be paid.In order to access your funds, please follow these simple steps:Step 1: Login To Your Wallet Account
Log in to your wallet here:http://www.ecashtrust.comHere are your login details:Username: guy_s@bigpond.net.au Password: xxxxxxx Step 2: Order A Debit Card
(You may skip this step if you have already ordered/received a debit card from us)Click "Request A Card" from the main menu down the left of the page.Fill out your details in the form and click the Request button.

I went to www.ecashtrust.com and logged in.

Then I saw the funds in my ewallet immediately.

Then Click "Request A Card" from the main menu down the left of the page.Fill out your details in the form and click the Request button.

My card arrived in 3 days.


I then went to www.ibill.com to activate my card.

I then filled out the form and clicked “activate”.


I left the balance on the card for another day.

Once I had my card I had cash with in 30 minutes as everything was linked up instantly.

It was GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me back here, All well and good right, maybe? But this was only on the left hand side of the screen.
Problem I see here:
He said $6000, twice actually in last posts ( i can't be bothered checking because I should be in bed. But I know he said it at least once)
I can see on The CF site he actually does have multiple positions. But he's lying about the cash and was trying to help our dealings with CF even though most members including yourself we're not involved.

The rest, most of the screen was a powerpoint presentation, apparently aimed towards him. Who's going to write a Powerpoint for only one person. I honestly do know of someone who has gotten the money, unless they are lying to me too. But now I just don't know.

Who the hell would write a powerpoint presentation for only themselves. This has to be the work of someone more pcycologically damaged than myself. And considering it was my profession to write it myself, I have very grave doubts about what this bloke is trying to do.

Who bloody knows. You may have another team member before you know it. Because at the moment I want to pummel this guy for breaking my trust in people I know and humanity myself.

[the middle road]

That last post came out a bit full on and almost nasty, because I had just a a very long and hard day at work and seemed to take it out on Topguy. My only real concern was that I thought that he would send me a scan of a bank statement, but instead got a powerpoint presentation and something that seemed like a letter.

When I meant desparados on this sight, I didn't mean it in a bad way. Just that what I've seen in some other posts here, if these were physical conversations I could see it coming to to blows from both sides. The beauty of an internet forum I suppose, to really have your say.

[Openedeyes]

I have actually joined CF on the advice of a friend.

He says "Look, it's just a couple of hundred dollars. So what??"

This is true. I don't really care about a couple of hundred dollars when learning to take some risks to build wealth...

BUT...

If you check out Club freedom details...IN detail EVERYTHING falls flat.

Firstly, the ECASH Card Global Head Office that says CF SAYS is in Hong Kong has NO reference to being in Hong Kong on the Internet.

Type it in yourself.

Also, when calling the 'Global Head Office' in Hong Kong at ANY hour, an answering machine picks up the phone with 'The PERSON you are trying to reach is unavailable"
Is this the message of a Global Head Office of a million dollar ECash Debit Card business???????

Also, the CF head office in th Caribbean?? How the hell does a company in Hong Kong hear of a business in the Caribbean?
There is NO phone number for the Caribbean office AT ALL.
A P.O Box number is all you get with a hotel suite number.

ALSO, the help desk in the personaly CF site is freaking me out! There is no number to call if you have an issue or query, BUT you can email them.
When your email is replis to, it is signatured by NOBODY.
NOBODY's name is at the bottom if the reply. (Eg... Sincerely, Club Freedom"

The Revolving Travel site! WHO THE HELL IS THE CONTACT?? I PAID THEM MONEY! MY LITTLE SITE HAS NOW BEEN SHUT DOWN!!!!!!!
There is no phone number and no email address for them! I threw $59.95 out the window.

The Hong Kong Head Office Photo at the site...looks awefully like a building in Brisbane, Queensland, at Riverside.

And the system can be set up to sucker in what I term Pondlife People who are poor, are slack, weak, dumb, and lazy, who will never recruit. they do no work and expect the board to move.
So imagine just 5000 people paying $165... and that money just sitting in a bank account...
CAN YOU IMAGINE THE INTEREST THAT IS BUILDING DAILY FOR THE FOUNDERS???

If this went *** up, where is the mmoney? Who has it? Who is the face of the company?

An offshore business with the founders living on the Gold Coast.

I know the name and number of one.

But if I don't get my answers on ALL OF THESE ISSUES, I will go hell for the leather on these people.
Not for the money...althought I can think of many things I could have bought... but for the fact i may have compromised my integrity.

TRANSPARENCY.
Names, head office number, Australian office number.....
ALL of the above.

WHERE IS IT?

[Webwatch]

Hello Openedeyes and welcome to Matrixwatch.

Sorry to hear that you have got involved with this Pyramid Scheme and your finding out the inconsitences of CF & RT (I belive there both the same Scammers).

With this sort of scheme the founders will always need to protect themsleves from any repercusions when this all collapses and as mentioned on page 2 of this thread the image they use for e-cash international in Hong Kong is incorrect.

Your upline will just say everythings legal and there aren't any problems-they are lying of course and when this scheme collapses will just say you should have recruited harder and you would have cycled.

Don't fall into the trap of buying more positions in the hope this may help at least one to cycle.

This Pyramid Scheme money game is just an old scam being rehashed with an alleged Holiday voucher.

[beeswax]

Hello Openedeyes,

If you have a look at this link, and the hysterical activity of a few pages ago, you'll get a lot of your queries answered..................... exactly how you expect they'll be answered!
Like Web I sympathise with your financial loss, but applaud your integrity NOW.
We've all HOPED at one stage in life that something we've got suspicions about will be koshir.

http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286-450.html

[topguy]

Well done opened eyes it is good to see that you are having a go.

There are a lot of negative people on this website and dont want to help themselves. It is good to see that you do. If you put effort into your business you will make money from it.

SOME of these other people that comment on club freedom dont even have positions in it. But still they think they know everything and still want to comment. It is a free world

[beeswax]

Are you for real Topguy?
Take the time to read what Openedeys says!!!!!!
He's bagging the hell out of both CF and RT............ just prefacing it with the fact that HE could afford to lose his two outlays.

[Webwatch]

Well done opened eyes it is good to see that you are having a go.

There are a lot of negative people on this website and dont want to help themselves. It is good to see that you do. If you put effort into your business you will make money from it.

SOME of these other people that comment on club freedom dont even have positions in it. But still they think they know everything and still want to comment. It is a free world
Interesting how some of us get called negative just because we discuss a program that is so blatantly a Pyramid Scheme which by definition will mean members are paying in money so others can cycle and believe the same will happen to them.

Although the internet is infested with a variety of these schemes I would like to think the victim base is becoming smaller but with many new users coming online everyday, maybe I'm wrong.

I haven't seen one good argument yet as to why CF/RT isn't a Pyramid scheme all i keep reading is weak statements like calling some of us negative and we don't know what we are talking about because we haven't been suckered in.

Lets get one thing clear (or try to) this isn't a business its a money game where members recruit, recruit, recruit in the belief that they can cycle out and receive $6000.

[Openedeyes]

I have just never been in a shady predicament in my life, or meant overtly shady people or seen overtly shady concepts.

IF it is a scheme and it shuts down and the founders run with my money and the money of everybody else, how would those people live with themselves?

TO THE FOUNDERS:
How could YOU wake up in the morning, knowing that you had damaged the faith of people who wanted to get ahead in this life? People who dream of seeing the world? People who are so sick of sticking with the plan set up by our ancestors to get into debt and have a job and die poor?

I saw a very old lady at a presentation of CF the other night. Can you imagine her being YOUR mother? How would you feel if she invested some of her pension money in this? Can you guage your integrity of CF on this?
What if she made no money and lost the little she had,, while you bought a brand new beamer? 99% of humans have a guilt conscience. It's a genetic fact.

While the site is still being created, and I did notice the 'book now' section had a new booking system Under Construction, and I realise that it may work... I am actually disgusted by the dishonesty and how this instills fear in me. I have several businesses and I have people who ask for my opinions on business concepts.
What would they say to this?
Why would you not cover your bases and set this up right?
Why would you put up a shady phone number in Hong Kong and expect nobody to phone it? Is this the intelligence level you believe your recruits are at? And the photo??
Why would you not even put a name to the email helpdesk?
Why would you not arrange a 1300 number? And hire some staff? If so many people have joined, you can afford it. FACT.

Here's also a fact. The government should let us spend our money the way we wish. So shutting down a pyramid scheme protects the pondlife. And god help me...we have too much pondlife.
If I had my way, each and every person would be MADE to learn and implement network marketing and be fined for not investing and learning, and applying. Everyone should help each other, 90% of the population now works for 10% of the population. It used to be the other way around, perhaps a century or so ago. So everyone should make a co-op effort, then we would be wealthy.
Society is too busy caring for the bottomfeeders.

So if this works and I am so restless that I want to travel, then nobody should stand in my way. And kudos to the people who make this work. Pondlife, get out of the game. You should never have put your money in.
If you live in fear you will stay pondlife.
People who complain and never act in life are stupid.
I cannot stand listening to a poor person complain when they could get an education at the library where eductaion is free.
I cannot stand hearing a fat person complain about how they are discriminated against for their weight, when clearly, being fat is unhealthy anyway. Or they complain about their weight and never join or stick to a gym.
They should have a cupboard full of health supplements. It will change their world.

So these guys who created CF have ACTED on their belief in a money generating system. I don't know many people who are doing this, apart from me and the few around me. Who else has a business concept they are creating here??????

But if the founders integrity is a load of %&%&& and they wish to rip ME off.....they have another thing coming. If they DO NOT have the better interests at heart for their investors, I will find them and hunt them.
If they wish to laugh at how much money they are making and how stupid the white man is...I will put them in a head lock until they fall unconscious. then I will take their wallets and withdraw the amount of money I invested.

So far, the obvious preface of CF cranks my anger up to an 8, while I am in contradicting laughter and its ridiculousness.
Seriously.. a photo of Citibank from the internet??? a shady phone number?? What kind of foolishness??????????????????????????????????????? ????
I will show these obvious errors to other CF people at their meetings and ask for answers.

I'll rip them apart and they won't be able to stand up.

BUT if the site works....then my mood will shift.

[truthseeker]

Hello everyone, Came across matrixwatch while investigation Club Freedom as it has been recommended to a dear friend and we dont want to see her conned. Have been onto the Office of Fair Trading website, Brisbane which has the criteria for a `pyramid scheme' or `ponzi scheme'. ClubFreedom seems to fit the criteria folks. Penalties, financial and others are in place even for participation in such a scheme, let alone promotion of same. They are illegal here. We were concerned about the lack of information on what appears to be an incorporated body. Any web investigation just threw us back to Club Freedom's page. I've been involved with other genuine incorporated bodies which are duly registered and board members or office bearers identifiable. Have real concerns at lack of transparency. . Would urge severe caution and checking with Office of Fair Trading.

Regards
Truthseeker

[Webwatch]

Hello Truthseeker,
A great example of how a small amount of due diligence can save a lot of grief in the long run.

Of course all promoters of club freedom will argue that they are legal but as they are only after your money their judgement should be taken with a huge grain of salt, truth and pyramid schemes rarely go hand in hand.

Many promoters af CF/RT know they are illegal and just hope they can cycle in time before it collapses buy suckering enough people in.

Members of CF should be seeing a slow down about now as the initial hype starts to lose the battle against commonsense and the awareness of this type of scheme.

[shzr]

Hi there,

I am "shzr" aka "shazEr". I got involved with RT and CF (benefectored) and soon i realised what was going on. You can see some posts of mine arguing about that in MMG but most folks don't care: it's all about making money - no matter if it is illegal. I hope they are shut down soon because there will be "casualties" and that's very unfortunate. There are good, solid matrix based businesses that are realible and honest but they don't deliever fast, so they are ignored what leads to SCAMMED people in fast returning illegal programs. Very sad. :shake:



Take Care,
Sousa

[topguy]

I just dont know what to say.

Firstly Club freedom is known to the ACCC, Dept of fair trading for QLD NSW and VIC that i know of. It is also known by the Australian Fedral Police. The Club is not illegal and will be operating forever. If it was illegal dont you think that these government bodys would have shut Club freedom down by now.

A pyramid scheme in my opinion is a system when the last person has not got the same opportunity as the first person in the system. In CF the later you get into clubfreedom the better as you can benifit from overflow from your upline as well as when you get into the main board there is more people wanting to get into main boards therefore the mainboards are moving faster.

If you wish to contact me you can on 0415 094 616

Regards

Topguy

[Arzel]

I just dont know what to say.

Firstly Club freedom is known to the ACCC, Dept of fair trading for QLD NSW and VIC that i know of. It is also known by the Australian Fedral Police. The Club is not illegal and will be operating forever. If it was illegal dont you think that these government bodys would have shut Club freedom down by now.

A pyramid scheme in my opinion is a system when the last person has not got the same opportunity as the first person in the system. In CF the later you get into clubfreedom the better as you can benifit from overflow from your upline as well as when you get into the main board there is more people wanting to get into main boards therefore the mainboards are moving faster.

If you wish to contact me you can on 0415 094 616

Regards

Topguy

Do you seriously stand by that statement? You are just grasping at straws now. The probability of success decreases with each additional person, this is an undeniable mathmatical fact, thus by your own definition a pryamid scheme.

Now technically that is not the true definition of a pryamid scheme, but it doesn't really matter because you don't seem to understand what a pryamid scheme is anyway, but it is clear that CF is a pryamid scheme.

[beeswax]

Arzel there will always be people around like Top Guy............. trying to justify to oneself why I outlaid what I did!
At the moment the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to Top Guy.

In a way I'm a bit like him, don't want to miss the boat if this thing really is for real.
However, for me, the introduction of the concept to friends, family and business acquaintances is too risky................ currently.

How ironical that this was posted recently at MMG site: -

I just got an email that was very disturbing to me. The member had joined 3 weeks ago stated that they had nobody under them and demanded to know why since they were sure allot of people joined after they did.

To say the least i was pretty upset in my reply. All I ask is that all the great leaders we have here try to explain to your members that we do not advocate sitting doing nothing and then people expect to cycle. Try to contact your downlines and ask if there is anything you can do to help them.

Nowhere in our advertising material do we claim that you can join and get tons of spill over because we know that is a slap in the face. Any one that has been around for any length of time on the net knows this not to be true.[/

[Webwatch]

Firstly Club freedom is known to the ACCC, Dept of fair trading for QLD NSW and VIC that i know of. It is also known by the Australian Fedral Police. The Club is not illegal and will be operating forever. If it was illegal dont you think that these government bodys would have shut Club freedom down by now.
Maybe Club Freedom can add a statement to their website to say they are endorsed by every government and consumer protection group in the world.

Topguy-do you releive believe this stuff or are you just making it up as you go along.
Cf & RT are just small potatoes and one of many Pyramid scam's which infests the particular parts of the internet we find ourselves in when looking for a get rich opportunity.

What happened to wholesaleleisureholidays.com-isn't that site live yet.

I see Clubfreedom supposedly have a new International Office in Belize, The Hong Kong one not big enough.

I just got an email that was very disturbing to me. The member had joined 3 weeks ago stated that they had nobody under them and demanded to know why since they were sure allot of people joined after they did.If this is true (its hard to tell over at 'MY Moneys Gone Group') didn't the member realize they had to recruit, recruit, recruit to get anywhere in this program, freebies, spillover or whatever they call them are just another false hope to sucker people in who don't want to recruit.

Just my opinion of course-but if you have $59.95 burning a hole in your pocket and just can't help yourself thats up to you, but don't be surprised when it all suddenly stalls and closes way before you have any chance of receiving your $6000.

Think about it, $59.95 or $150 to receive $6000 its just a joke-or am I missing another genuine opportunity lol

[theTraveller]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I know lots of people who have joined Clubfreedom solely for the ability to get a cheap holiday. Ok so the travel page has taken a long time to be finalised, so what.. lots of sites that offer stuff have website problems in the beginning. The travel site is up now, and people can get their cheap holidays. The deals they are offering are genuine. I've checked what a similar accomodation package costs through a travel agent, and its almost 50% or sometimes more cheaper then buying it through a travel agent.

This in itself makes Clubfreedom worth it. Now if people decide they want to have a go at introducing other people to this with the option of making $6k then what is the problem with that?

You guys are so full of yourself in trying to prove its a scam, that you forget that what is on offer is a great deal! I'm about to book my trip already and that would have been worth the $150 right there! I would have saved over $US500.

The introduction of people may or may not be as hard as you say it is, but who cares.. the ACCC doesn't care. They seem to think its all legit. Why can't you guys get over yourself and see it for what it is..

Its a travel club with the option to make extra money if you want to. There is no guarantee anywhere that says it will work for everyone. There is no statement to say it will happen to everyone. It simply says, tell your friends, family or anyone you want to and have an opportunity to make $6k. It is certainly possible to make $6k over and over again if you have enough people introduced and they introduce their people.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I've made my $6k. And I have no unhappy people at all. All are happy they joined. Simply because of the travel deals.

Are there some who want to make $6k? of course there are. But they aren't under any illusions that this is a get rich quick scam. They know that it may happen. They are happy to work on it and if it doesn't happen, well they still get a cheap holiday out of it.

I appreciate that you guys are around to warn people about scams, but you really need to look beyond this "Everyone WILL make $6k" mentality. That isn't what this is about. And anyone who thinks it is, is wrong. The company offers a reward for signing people up. Just like any other company who offers a discount or reward for bringing business to them.

Give it all a rest.. go focus on something that actually is a scam.

theTraveller

[Webwatch]

Hi the Traveller and welcome to Matrixwatch.
Your first post and straight on the attack -Nice.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I know lots of people who have joined Clubfreedom solely for the ability to get a cheap holiday.I bet you don't-more likely you know lots of people who have signed up under you because you've mentioned the chance of getting $6000 just for recruiting others.

Ok so the travel page has taken a long time to be finalised, so what.. lots of sites that offer stuff have website problems in the beginning. The travel site is up now, and people can get their cheap holidaysCould you post the link (without refferal id) so we can take a look at these massive savings on offer.

The introduction of people may or may not be as hard as you say it is, but who cares.. the ACCC doesn't care. They seem to think its all legit. Why can't you guys get over yourself and see it for what it is.. So you work for the ACCC as you speak for them and know what they think or does your use of the word seem mean you are covering yourself just in case you are wrong on this assumption.

I wont continue to go through your post as we obviously differ on this but thats fine, thats the whole point of forums like this so differing points of view can be expressed.

Clubfreedom is so obviously a Pyramid Scheme that it beggars belief that anyone could argue that it isn't, unless of course they have a vested interest in its survival for their own financial gain (that would be all members then).

[beeswax]

Hi WebWatch.................. you were actually debating the pros and cons of an ACCC document with Traveller back in mid September.

This is what he in introduced at the time: -

And what about the Recruitment Payments?

These are given to participants and are contingent on both the recruitment of new participants AND the ability of these new participants to sell Club Freedom's genuine and commercially competitive services to new customers.

As such no pyramid scheme (or Ponzi) can be established. Interesting also to see the first Club Freedom commercial on Foxtel Cable TV last nite

I admit, sure just like a traditional sales team, if you dont sell, you dont get paid, why should you?

However, unless the company brings in resaleable items for existing members to purchase it will saturate and stall.

I would have thought the proponents of any well-run 'business' would be proud to answer all questions for interested parties.......... not allow members to float ideas around a zillion forums........................... and at least show their faces to the rest of their supporters, not just to a few adoring lackeys in the capital of Queensland, Australia.

AND, Traveller, I can give you names of 8 people who were introduced to the scheme (3 months ago), and who tried to recruit others.............. and wish they'd never heard about it. All they've done is lose friendships and credibility.

These were people who normally due their DD on a feasible business model. Greed got the better of them in each case, and they were pushed to 'get in now'. None of us has any idea where that pusher from the Gold Coast resides at the moment!!!

But as we all know........... there's a sucker born every second!

[theTraveller]

Actually i mentioned the ability to get a nice cheap holiday. They joined because they like the holiday. Some have joined because they believe they can work on this and perhaps get to receiving $6k. But none are under the illusion that its easy or quick.

As to posting the link, why is it that all of a sudden you would take that as proof since before it has been made very clear that everything on computers can be faked. Either way, I don't need to prove anything to you. I appreciate your opinion. As it is an opinion shared by lots of people. I'm not here to convince you any which way. i'm simply making the point that you seem to hammer the fact that this is so bad because it has no product or its a pyramid scam. Yet when there is a product, you still won't come back an say oh well yes there is a product maybe its not as bad as it first seemed. You probably won't take my word for it, but have a look at a 7 night accomodation package at the Crown Towers at the Gold Coast and since you have several members here already you can do the sums and figure out the savings.

I don't work for the ACCC, but I do know enough about their investigation to know that they haven't deemed it illegal. And Clubfreedom is still running.

I agree that we differ on opinion but i disagree that I would have a vested interest in this financially in terms of the $6k. I like the ability to have cheap holidays. If I never get another $6 I would still want Clubfreedom to stay around. It is giving me the ability to holidays I would otherwise not be able to afford.

You guys spend so much time and effort fighting against something like Clubfreedom, yet there are no heated discussions about the fact that petrol shops can change their prices on a daily basis, or that the large supermakets can inflate their prices so much without paying the farmers any more, or that the banks can post record profits without the people getting any benefit and being charged more for less service.

Those seem to affect a hell of a lot more people then these things ever will.It would be nice if you guys could spend some of the time and effort you put into this and fight the banks and petrol shops.

And how are any of those corporations not pyramid schemes.. We all work hard to support the people at the top. They all try to get us to sign up with them through advertising etc. The more people get a bank account or fill up at their petrol shops, the more money they make and the more we the people loose out. But that seems to be all ok and fine with you guys.

Clubfreedom is no different. We the public comes and buys discounted holidays with an option to bring others along to do the same.

Anyway, I appreciate your opinion and understand how you see this as a pyramid scheme. You obviously don't agree that a discounted holiday is a product worth becoming a member for. And thats fine. I'm sure there are products you guys buy that i don't agree its worth spending the money on.

I just wish you would respect and appreciate that for some of us the holiday is worth it. If I've come across too strong or have offended anyone here then I apologize.

Hi the Traveller and welcome to Matrixwatch.
Your first post and straight on the attack -Nice.
I bet you don't-more likely you know lots of people who have signed up under you because you've mentioned the chance of getting $6000 just for recruiting others.

Could you post the link (without refferal id) so we can take a look at these massive savings on offer.

So you work for the ACCC as you speak for them and know what they think or does your use of the word seem mean you are covering yourself just in case you are wrong on this assumption.

I wont continue to go through your post as we obviously differ on this but thats fine, thats the whole point of forums like this so differing points of view can be expressed.

Clubfreedom is so obviously a Pyramid Scheme that it beggars belief that anyone could argue that it isn't, unless of course they have a vested interest in its survival for their own financial gain (that would be all members then).

[theTraveller]

I think you're mistaking me with someone else. I've never posted anything about the ACCC here before. Altho it seems like THAT Traveller understand and appreciates the view point that this is a legal and legit business.

As to your statement about people loosing friendships well, if they loose friends of this type of thing they don't seem like they were very good friends to begin with. I've introduced a hell of a lot more then 8 people and I've not heard of anyone loosing friends over this. But I guess it all depends on how you approach it.

Network marketing isn't for everyone. And I can understand that if done wrongly that you could alienate yourself from people. But like you said greed has taken over. Mistakes happen because of greed all the time. Greed is what makes the stock market so profitable.

But again I'm not saying this is for everyone and I appreciate you don't like this type of business. But you are also not respecting or appreciating the people that do like this type of business.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong in warning people that this business may not be for everyone due to the fact that it requires recruitment IF you want to make a go of making the $6k. And I stress the IF. Lots of people just want to join for the cheap holidays.

I've warned plenty of people about Amway and some other MLM businesses in the past. But I don't spend the time bagging Amway like you do Clubfreedom. If you look at the statistics I think you'll find there are a hell of a lot more people who have lost a lot more then $200 getting involved with MLM type businesses.

All I'm asking you guys is since you are so positive that Clubfreedom is illegal and wrong, show us the documents from any government body that states that it is illegal or give us the phone number of any organisation that can tell us its illegal. If you can't do that, then it proves that its not illegal. And if its not illegal, then you should at least have the decency to come back and say you were wrong. If you want to warn people that it may not be something they want to get involved in, then thats fine. But let people make up their own mind based on fact. Not speculation.

The fact is also that Canadian Diamond Traders has been going for aprox 4 years and is still successful for a lot of people. It is not illegal and operates in all the same countries as Clubfreedom does. Personally I don't really find them interesting to get involved in for a number of reasons, but I respect there are lots of people who do.

I hope that you can appreciate my point of view. And again if I have offended anyone, i'm sorry. I respect your view points and very much respect the work that you do on this site. I would just like to see a bit more open mindedness.



Hi WebWatch.................. you were actually debating the pros and cons of an ACCC document with Traveller back in mid September.

This is what he in introduced at the time: -

And what about the Recruitment Payments?

These are given to participants and are contingent on both the recruitment of new participants AND the ability of these new participants to sell Club Freedom's genuine and commercially competitive services to new customers.

As such no pyramid scheme (or Ponzi) can be established. Interesting also to see the first Club Freedom commercial on Foxtel Cable TV last nite

I admit, sure just like a traditional sales team, if you dont sell, you dont get paid, why should you?

However, unless the company brings in resaleable items for existing members to purchase it will saturate and stall.

I would have thought the proponents of any well-run 'business' would be proud to answer all questions for interested parties.......... not allow members to float ideas around a zillion forums........................... and at least show their faces to the rest of their supporters, not just to a few adoring lackeys in the capital of Queensland, Australia.

AND, Traveller, I can give you names of 8 people who were introduced to the scheme (3 months ago), and who tried to recruit others.............. and wish they'd never heard about it. All they've done is lose friendships and credibility.

These were people who normally due their DD on a feasible business model. Greed got the better of them in each case, and they were pushed to 'get in now'. None of us has any idea where that pusher from the Gold Coast resides at the moment!!!

But as we all know........... there's a sucker born every second!

[Webwatch]

As to posting the link, why is it that all of a sudden you would take that as proof since before it has been made very clear that everything on computers can be faked. Either way, I don't need to prove anything to you. I appreciate your opinion. As it is an opinion shared by lots of people. I'm not here to convince you any which way. i'm simply making the point that you seem to hammer the fact that this is so bad because it has no product or its a pyramid scam. Yet when there is a product, you still won't come back an say oh well yes there is a product maybe its not as bad as it first seemed. You probably won't take my word for it, but have a look at a 7 night accomodation package at the Crown Towers at the Gold Coast and since you have several members here already you can do the sums and figure out the savings.As you mentioned the Holiday site was up and running I thought a link was available so I could check out the potential savings, or do you have to join first before you can view these discounts and just take CF's word for it that theses are available. If these massive savings are available the least we should be able to do is call CF's booking line (bet they don't have one) and enquire about a Holiday and then shop around to see if the same package is available elsewhere.
Unfortunately as with all Pyramid schemes the product is an illusion.

You guys spend so much time and effort fighting against something like Clubfreedom, yet there are no heated discussions about the fact that petrol shops can change their prices on a daily basis, or that the large supermakets can inflate their prices so much without paying the farmers any more, or that the banks can post record profits without the people getting any benefit and being charged more for less service.I'm sure there are other groups that campaign against these injustices but theres nothing illegal in any of the above examples- with a garage you pay your money and get your petrol they dont ask you to recruit others with the expectation of a huge financial reward for doing so. There are many financial injustices in this world, the eradication of Pyramid schemes is just a good starting point. Although as the Forum name suggests Matrix schemes where the beginning and most have now dissapeared.

And how are any of those corporations not pyramid schemes.. We all work hard to support the people at the top. They all try to get us to sign up with them through advertising etc. The more people get a bank account or fill up at their petrol shops, the more money they make and the more we the people loose out. But that seems to be all ok and fine with you guys.

Clubfreedom is no different. We the public comes and buys discounted holidays with an option to bring others along to do the same.This corporation Pyramid reference is so common I should have a rebuttle in my signature. I can't find my usual generic response so I'll try again:

Its not the Pyramid structure thats illegal its the word 'Scheme' thats important and yes all business (apart from very small ones) have a Pyramid design-But the employees don't pay to work for them and aren't expected to recruit others in order to get paid-CF is worse than most as there is no referral commision or product to sell you just have to recruit enough people to cycle and for everyone that does their will be 60ish that don't.

Anyway, I appreciate your opinion and understand how you see this as a pyramid scheme. You obviously don't agree that a discounted holiday is a product worth becoming a member for. And thats fine. I'm sure there are products you guys buy that i don't agree its worth spending the money on. A discounted Holiday would be usefull but we need to be able to check out the savings on specific Holidays before joining, just saying you will save this amount but pay $150 ($59.95 for the RT mini Pyramid scheme) is not enough.

I just wish you would respect and appreciate that for some of us the holiday is worth it. If I've come across too strong or have offended anyone here then I apologize.No offence at all, just because we differ on a particular topic doesn't make us enemies.

All I'm asking you guys is since you are so positive that Clubfreedom is illegal and wrong, show us the documents from any government body that states that it is illegal or give us the phone number of any organisation that can tell us its illegal. If you can't do that, then it proves that its not illegal. And if its not illegal, then you should at least have the decency to come back and say you were wrong. If you want to warn people that it may not be something they want to get involved in, then thats fine. But let people make up their own mind based on fact. Not speculation.Everyone can check with their own local trading standards or consumer protection agency for this proof as it all comes down to personal choice whether to get involved or not.
For UK residents heres a snippet from the OFT although I suspect most countries have their own version of this.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/Consumer/Scams/Pyramid+schemes.htm
Pyramid schemes are illegal. They are 'money-making' clubs which promise, once you've paid a joining fee, that you can earn large amounts by recruiting new members. However, only those at the top make money and the schemes always collapse, leaving you out of pocket.

No new money is created in pyramid schemes. An endless supply of new members would be needed for everyone to receive the money on offer in a pyramid scheme. Since this is impossible, these schemes must eventually collapse and result in most members losing their money.

'Matrix' schemes offer a free hi-tech gift, like an MP3 player. First you have to buy something low-value like a mobile telephone signal booster. If you do, you join a waiting list. The person at the top gets their free gift only if a large number of new members signs up - sometimes as many as 100. In reality, most people never get the gift.

Trading schemes
Trading schemes (also described as direct selling schemes, network marketing, multi-level marketing and other names) are a legitimate form of business activity offering individuals the opportunity to earn money by selling the scheme's goods or services from home.

In some schemes, participants may earn additional commission by recruiting others to the scheme and from sales by their recruits.

Trading schemes become illegitimate and illegal when their real purpose is to generate money just by recruiting new participants.

Pyramid and chain gifting schemes
Pyramid schemes do not claim to sell goods and services but they often offer promises of quick and easy money. They may be advertised through newspapers, the internet, 'investment' meetings or you might hear about them through a relative or friend.

How does it work?

In a typical pyramid scheme, a potential member is asked to pay to join the scheme. The only way to advance is to recruit others, who also pay to join. If enough new members join, the pyramid will grow, possibly enabling some members to make money. But, in order for every member to make money, there would need to be an endless supply of newcomers. In reality, since there is not an endless supply of new participants, each new member has less chance of recruiting others and a greater chance of losing their money.
Not all the above is relevant to CF but to be fair I have left the Trading Scheme bit in as this is CF's only argument that it is legitimate by having a discount holday for sale even though you can't buy this discount Holiday without signing up first.

The Consumer Direct contact number for UK residents to call to get more advice: 08454 04 05 06

[theTraveller]

I believe there will be a page where you can check the holidays. I believe its in the making. So you will be able to check those prices.

And exactly as I thought.. You don't fight things that are deemed legal. So when petrol shops raise their prices on monday and bring them down on tuesday, you think that is legal? I bet if a small company did that the consumer commission or what ever body you have over there would be on them in a second. But because its a large oil company they let them get away with it.

Either way, since you seem to think that as long as its legal it doesn't warrant the time to fight it, why are you fighting this? You quote a passage of a UK website. I don't know what they think of Clubfreedom, but the equivalent here in Australia seems to think it is legal, as does the equivalents in Netherlands, Greece, Romania, Italy, Egypt, several African countries and several Asian Countries. Yes I have actually checked. So since its legal in those countries, why do you feel the need to say its not?
And since its legal you shouldn't feel the need to fight it.

Amway costs you money.. and you have to recruit people to make money.. Yet I don't see you fighting that with the same zeal as Clubfreedom. ANY MLM company you would need to recruit to be successful. You need to recruit people to buy the product and you need to recruit to get distributors under you. But again its legal so you don't have a problem with it.

And even traditional companies offer incentives to recruit. To get you to get your friends and family and others to buy their product by offering referal bonuses. Nothing new about it. Clubfreedom has given me their product, which is an excellently priced holiday. and now they are offering me an incentive to get others to buy their product. Gee thats new.. my local car dealership offered me $2000 rebate on my new car if I could bring in 4 other people who would buy a car of them.. Nobody complained about that. They gave good service so I gladly referred my friends and family to them. I didn't get 4 people to buy a car there so i didn't get my rebate. Did I go complain to the ACCC about it? No its no big deal.

Seems to me when you refer to speculation and illusions in Clubfreedom, that you do exactly the same. You don't know what countries its legal and illegal. You shouldn't be assuming that you know its illegal when you don't know. As a result you shouldn't be bagging stuff you don't know enough about. Just because a whole sale holiday place offers cheap holidays doesn't mean they need to make their prices available to everyone. If you go to wholesale places on the internet, you have to join some of them with a registration fee to get prices also. Big deal. happens all the time. If you call a wholesale computer place and you are not a distributor they don't give you prices either.

I don't have any people in the UK interested in Clubfreedom. Perhaps that is because it is illegal in the UK, I don't know and I don't pretend to know. But I do promote Clubfreedom as a holiday club where you can get cheaper holidays then you can get in most other places and I do this in countries where I know its legal. Until it becomes illegal, i don't see any reason why anyone should bag something that seemingly lots of people are quite happy with.

There are always those who get involved because of greed and don't get the $6k they believed they would. That is unfortunate. But you get that in lots of things.. Greedy people loose out when they don't get what they expect.. Stocks, Options are a great example. They got in for the wrong reasons.

I don't disagree that people shouldn't promote Clubfreedom as a get rich quick scheme and promote the fact that $6k is guaranteed. But I don't see any reason why Clubfreedom shouldn't be promoted as a holiday club with and option to work at it and possibly receive $6k.

Call it what you want. Matrix, Pyramid, scheme, scam, what ever... But don't call it illegal when you don't know that it is..

So far you haven't proven at all that it is illegal. You've given a phone number that people can call and ask.. So have you? Who did you speak to? Where is the documentation that it is illegal? Where is the documentation or court orders for Clubfreedom to stop operating in the UK? That should all be publicly made available.

Surely if its so blatently illegal as per your reference, then it wouldn't take the governments of all the countries that you represent in your "Illegal" statement to shut Clubfreedom down..

Or at least ban locals from participating since they can't shut the company down.

Yet its still operating and yes UK people are still joining. So until its proven illegal, your opinion holds as little value as mine. Its an opinion from someone who doesn't like the Matrix style businesses. Nothing more.

[Webwatch]

Hello theTraveller glad to see your sticking with the discussion, I will address some of the good points raised in your post with my own observations and experiences.
I believe there will be a page where you can check the holidays. I believe its in the making. So you will be able to check those prices.This I look forward to as www.wholesaleleisureholidays.com has been under construction for a few weeks now it would be nice to compare the savings on offer. After all who wants to pay $150.00 ($59.95 RT Mini Pyramid) before they can compare the Holidays on offer and if desirable destinations are on offer.
And exactly as I thought.. You don't fight things that are deemed legal. So when petrol shops raise their prices on monday and bring them down on tuesday, you think that is legal? I bet if a small company did that the consumer commission or what ever body you have over there would be on them in a second. But because its a large oil company they let them get away with it.This is interesting as Oil reserves are not unlimited and there will come a time when alternative fuels have to be used so we can still enjoy the luxury of car travel & Holiday Travel for that matter.
A few years ago here in the UK there was a fuel blockade which nearly bought the UK mainland to a standstill-This was instigated by farmers and small hauliers who where insensed at the price of Diesel and the amount of revenue the Government was taking from it.

To cut a long story short supplies of Petrol and Diesel in the UK where so badly affected that a few unscrupulous Petrol Stations tripled and in some cases quadrupled the cost of fuel on the forecourt (supply vs demand and all that).
In fact things got to a point where even the emergency services where being affected even though Ambulances and Fire Engines can run on Red (untaxed) Diesel there supplies where starting to be affected.
The outcome of this was well nothing really, apart from I guess the Oil Companies making a huge amount when the blockade was lifted and everyone rushed to buy Fuel just in case it happened again.
As far as I'm aware shops can put up their prices (supply vs demand again) and if customers don't like it they will shop elsewhere, the beauty of the internet is that we can shop around so when Clubfreedoms prices and booking facilities become available potential custmers can compare like for like vacations and not be asked to pay $150 just because some website says there are massive savings available, after all the Holidays mentioned on the CF website just look like generic Time share ones which if you look hard enough can be obtained for free elsewhere-of course the downside being that you will encounter some real hard sell, but then if your susceptible to a Pyramid Scheme chances are you may be easily persuaded into buying a timeshare.
Either way, since you seem to think that as long as its legal it doesn't warrant the time to fight it, why are you fighting this? You quote a passage of a UK website. I don't know what they think of Clubfreedom, but the equivalent here in Australia seems to think it is legal, as does the equivalents in Netherlands, Greece, Romania, Italy, Egypt, several African countries and several Asian Countries. Yes I have actually checked. So since its legal in those countries, why do you feel the need to say its not?
And since its legal you shouldn't feel the need to fight it. Trying to fight something legal is a lot harder than trying to fight something illegal, the UK Pyramid Scheme Laws are in place to protect people from falling for this type of scheme and of course it would be up to a particular court of law to state whether a particular scheme is illegal or not, but the guidlines are there and as CF falls well and truly (and then some) into the Pyramid Scheme description it doesn't take a genious to figure out that $150 to receive $6000 is never going to happen for most members and some will even buy multiple positions because they think this will help. As far as other countries go I'm not sure maybe we have members her located in the areas you mention who can tell us their particular countries guidelines, as I am UK based I can only comment from a UK perspective.
Amway costs you money.. and you have to recruit people to make money.. Yet I don't see you fighting that with the same zeal as Clubfreedom. ANY MLM company you would need to recruit to be successful. You need to recruit people to buy the product and you need to recruit to get distributors under you. But again its legal so you don't have a problem with it.

And even traditional companies offer incentives to recruit. To get you to get your friends and family and others to buy their product by offering referal bonuses. Nothing new about it. Clubfreedom has given me their product, which is an excellently priced holiday. and now they are offering me an incentive to get others to buy their product. Gee thats new.. my local car dealership offered me $2000 rebate on my new car if I could bring in 4 other people who would buy a car of them.. Nobody complained about that. They gave good service so I gladly referred my friends and family to them. I didn't get 4 people to buy a car there so i didn't get my rebate. Did I go complain to the ACCC about it? No its no big deal.I'm not to familiar with Amway/Quixtar. Arbonne etc but as these appear to be MLM's they have no real relevance to clubfreedom which has no product to sell-it only has the Holiday opportunity if you join first. Members of CF don't get commision from selling Holidays they just recruit someone into their downline. Clubfreedom Holidays can't be bought by end users without joining the Pyramid so they have no end product only an illusion of one. We probably need a new thread to discuss Amway but as with many MLM's chances are some people are succesfull (due to be able to sell the products and recruit others to do the same) but more people fail at it after being told by their sponsor how easy it is when in fact as your just recruiting more competition your sale of the actual product (even though this should generate more income than recruiting) takes a back seat and the desire to recruit others so you can take it easy becomes the main objective. As far as the car buying analogy , there was a product on offer-didn't you tell all your friends that if they recruited 4 as well they would receive a rebate, but yet again there was a product they could buy and walk away with, the need to constantly recruit was not a major requirement.
Seems to me when you refer to speculation and illusions in Clubfreedom, that you do exactly the same. You don't know what countries its legal and illegal. You shouldn't be assuming that you know its illegal when you don't know. As a result you shouldn't be bagging stuff you don't know enough about. Just because a whole sale holiday place offers cheap holidays doesn't mean they need to make their prices available to everyone. If you go to wholesale places on the internet, you have to join some of them with a registration fee to get prices also. Big deal. happens all the time. If you call a wholesale computer place and you are not a distributor they don't give you prices either. I showed in the previous post why I considered CF to be illegal in the UK and as far as other countries go thats admittedly not an area I'm familar with-although the US and Australian legal sytem no doubt has similar warnings. As far as making prices available-CF is not a trade organisation anyone can join and other Trade Distributors and Wholesalers although not making their prices public would not expect anyone interested in opening a new account to pay up front (although there maybe a minimum order amount for first orders).
Regards being given prices-If you have a business and are in the trade you could freeley request a price list from a potential new suppier/Distributor (just by giving your company details) and they would be more than happy to give one.
Of course it would only be a guide as further discounts could be acheived with quantity orders and showing loyality in other ways.
I don't have any people in the UK interested in Clubfreedom. Perhaps that is because it is illegal in the UK, I don't know and I don't pretend to know. But I do promote Clubfreedom as a holiday club where you can get cheaper holidays then you can get in most other places and I do this in countries where I know its legal. Until it becomes illegal, i don't see any reason why anyone should bag something that seemingly lots of people are quite happy with.

There are always those who get involved because of greed and don't get the $6k they believed they would. That is unfortunate. But you get that in lots of things.. Greedy people loose out when they don't get what they expect.. Stocks, Options are a great example. They got in for the wrong reasons. I'm glad you promote CF as a Holiday club, I mean why would you promote the pay $150 and get $6000 back as its just a nonsense. Unfortunately many people will join CF because of the potential (Not guaranteed of course) $6000 and these will be the ones who suffer the most when it all collapses and of course their upline will either dissapear, move on to the next scheme and say 'well you should have recruited harder'.
With CF & RT greed is the primary sales tool, whether expected or just an unlikely possibility all depends on the individual's perception, but as with all these schemes CF will do its best to make it look a certainty.
Its not just the greedy people that lose out (most of us are greedy) its those that can not afford to lose their money and just trust friends (either physical or virtual) who say this is a sure thing.
I don't disagree that people shouldn't promote Clubfreedom as a get rich quick scheme and promote the fact that $6k is guaranteed. But I don't see any reason why Clubfreedom shouldn't be promoted as a holiday club with and option to work at it and possibly receive $6k.

Call it what you want. Matrix, Pyramid, scheme, scam, what ever... But don't call it illegal when you don't know that it is..At last something we agree on its definately not a get rich scheme, so why ask people to pay to join without knowing the true savings on offer. Its illegal in the UK because its a Pyramid Scheme plain and simple, if you consider this anything else your falling for the scam.
So far you haven't proven at all that it is illegal. You've given a phone number that people can call and ask.. So have you? Who did you speak to? Where is the documentation that it is illegal? Where is the documentation or court orders for Clubfreedom to stop operating in the UK? That should all be publicly made available.

Surely if its so blatently illegal as per your reference, then it wouldn't take the governments of all the countries that you represent in your "Illegal" statement to shut Clubfreedom down..

Or at least ban locals from participating since they can't shut the company down.

Yet its still operating and yes UK people are still joining. So until its proven illegal, your opinion holds as little value as mine. Its an opinion from someone who doesn't like the Matrix style businesses. Nothing more.
Hang on earlier you said I don't have any people in the UK interested in Clubfreedom. and now you say Yet its still operating and yes UK people are still joining.not that it matters to much as I'm sure there are some UK residents involved in this.

You asked for proof this scheme was illegal in the UK-I provided it.
You asked for a phone number-I provided it

Now you want me to call this number and provide documentation.
My key objective is to supply information which in turn may help others explore things further themselves, its all about self help & personal choice, not-'I say its a scam so it is', everyone has to take ownership for their own choices and if to help make these choices envloves doing research and even making the effort to call particular government organisations for further advice (thats why we pay taxes after all) all the better.

As far as I know CF isn't under UK investigation-its small potatoes and one of a multitude of these schemes that habit the internet.

One final thing because I've waffled on so much.
I dont actively go out picketing CF offices in Hong Kong & Belize (If they even excist) because theres no point-anyone who wants information on CF may find this thread via google or other search engines, If they ignore what I say and still join thats up to them at least by coming here they may have a vague idea that all is not as rosey as the picture CF paints of itself.

[Webwatch]

Sorry Me again.
As CF has introduced what seems to be a $50 extra charge for those joining after 01.01.07 its worth looking at what you actually get for your money.
Apart from joing a Pyramid Scheme in the hope you get $6000 back when you cycle off the main board.
I've added my observations in Blue.
CLUBFREEDOM MEMBERSHIP
(Free membership available until 1st January 2007**)
Hold up it still costs $150 to get into this

For a one time membership payment of only $50 look at the list of benefits you receive to help you market this fantastic opportunity.
I've got it, this is an extra $50 charge for the marketing/downline building stuff.
Here is a brief overview of what you receive:

Entry into our Lucrative Rewards System
By purchasing a US$150 Wholesale Access Certificate you are automatically placed into the rewards system as a Clubfreedom Marketing Consultant and if you choose to market these fantastic desirable Vacation Vouchers and Qualify in our Rewards System you could earn lucrative Marketing fees Credited to your personal Clubfreedom Travel Card, plus a fully paid Bonus VIP Traveller Elite Voucher for a 7 night vacation package on your first
reward qualification.
Wholesale Access Certificate's (WAC's) this seems familiar.
Automatically placed into the reward system and lucrative Marketing fees, does this mean CF is going to give commisions for selling Holidays.

No monthly auto-ship---Of Course not its an electronic voucher

No inventory to stock---Electronic Voucher again

No monthly sales requirements-- ??Selling what-The Holiday Voucher perhaps

Simple compensation plan (easy to calculate)-- Pay $200 and recruit others to do the same nothing new or tricky here.

Your personal web site just like this one--- Pyramid Scheme essential this.

Banners--- Great for Downline Building

Splash Pages--- Downline Building again

Text Ad Creator (no longer will you struggle to write ads)--- You may just struggle to pay the debts off first and build a new group of friends who don't know about your Pyramid Scheme Peddling Days.
Lead Capture Pages--- Downline building yet again

Personal Auto-responder system--- More Downline Building stuff

Tell-a-friend System--- Sucker your friends in they will love you even more

Email Downline Feature--- Downline Communicating then

Help Desk system--- Every Pyramid Scheme needs one

Pre-qualified Lead purchase packages--- I have a feeling these are nasty e-mail address packages you can buy which of course never work because its just a spam campaign
Lead rotator… designate your prospects sponsors

Plus much more... --- Holiday Price lists would be a good addition or even a Brochure.
Maybe I'm being to closed minded but show me the product or at least a picture or 2 of the holiday resorts on offer, c'mon give us a clue.

[theTraveller]

Irrespective of the difference of opinion on Clubfreedom, it seems that as long as promoted correctly you don't seem to have a big problem with it.

As to the legality of it. I'm only asking that you provide proof of legality because you keep saying it is. When you don't really know. you consider it illegal. But you make statements in lots of posts that it is. You don't know. You base it on a statement about pyramids. But you haven't called or received any proof that it is illegal. Australia does have similar laws as the US when it comes to the statement you quoted about pyramids. Yet in Australia Clubfreedom is not illegal.

Clubfreedom DOES have a product. and the site is not under construction anymore. Time share products may be available elsewhere, but I've not found them at the prices I can get them for at Clubfreedom.

7 nights at $450, $650, $850 (roughly) at big resorts all over the world are good prices.

These prices are not secrets.

As to supply and demand, I understand people can charge more when supply is low and demand is high, but not when they buy large bulk of it and then charge one price today and 15% more tomorrow and back to the original price day after tomorrow. That is not legal according to the consumers commision. yet it happens.

Anyway, we differ on opinions. Thats ok. I'm happy with Clubfreedom as are the people in my downline.

Hello theTraveller glad to see your sticking with the discussion, I will address some of the good points raised in your post with my own observations and experiences.
This I look forward to as www.wholesaleleisureholidays.com has been under construction for a few weeks now it would be nice to compare the savings on offer. After all who wants to pay $150.00 ($59.95 RT Mini Pyramid) before they can compare the Holidays on offer and if desirable destinations are on offer.
This is interesting as Oil reserves are not unlimited and there will come a time when alternative fuels have to be used so we can still enjoy the luxury of car travel & Holiday Travel for that matter.
A few years ago here in the UK there was a fuel blockade which nearly bought the UK mainland to a standstill-This was instigated by farmers and small hauliers who where insensed at the price of Diesel and the amount of revenue the Government was taking from it.

To cut a long story short supplies of Petrol and Diesel in the UK where so badly affected that a few unscrupulous Petrol Stations tripled and in some cases quadrupled the cost of fuel on the forecourt (supply vs demand and all that).
In fact things got to a point where even the emergency services where being affected even though Ambulances and Fire Engines can run on Red (untaxed) Diesel there supplies where starting to be affected.
The outcome of this was well nothing really, apart from I guess the Oil Companies making a huge amount when the blockade was lifted and everyone rushed to buy Fuel just in case it happened again.
As far as I'm aware shops can put up their prices (supply vs demand again) and if customers don't like it they will shop elsewhere, the beauty of the internet is that we can shop around so when Clubfreedoms prices and booking facilities become available potential custmers can compare like for like vacations and not be asked to pay $150 just because some website says there are massive savings available, after all the Holidays mentioned on the CF website just look like generic Time share ones which if you look hard enough can be obtained for free elsewhere-of course the downside being that you will encounter some real hard sell, but then if your susceptible to a Pyramid Scheme chances are you may be easily persuaded into buying a timeshare.
Trying to fight something legal is a lot harder than trying to fight something illegal, the UK Pyramid Scheme Laws are in place to protect people from falling for this type of scheme and of course it would be up to a particular court of law to state whether a particular scheme is illegal or not, but the guidlines are there and as CF falls well and truly (and then some) into the Pyramid Scheme description it doesn't take a genious to figure out that $150 to receive $6000 is never going to happen for most members and some will even buy multiple positions because they think this will help. As far as other countries go I'm not sure maybe we have members her located in the areas you mention who can tell us their particular countries guidelines, as I am UK based I can only comment from a UK perspective.
I'm not to familiar with Amway/Quixtar. Arbonne etc but as these appear to be MLM's they have no real relevance to clubfreedom which has no product to sell-it only has the Holiday opportunity if you join first. Members of CF don't get commision from selling Holidays they just recruit someone into their downline. Clubfreedom Holidays can't be bought by end users without joining the Pyramid so they have no end product only an illusion of one. We probably need a new thread to discuss Amway but as with many MLM's chances are some people are succesfull (due to be able to sell the products and recruit others to do the same) but more people fail at it after being told by their sponsor how easy it is when in fact as your just recruiting more competition your sale of the actual product (even though this should generate more income than recruiting) takes a back seat and the desire to recruit others so you can take it easy becomes the main objective. As far as the car buying analogy , there was a product on offer-didn't you tell all your friends that if they recruited 4 as well they would receive a rebate, but yet again there was a product they could buy and walk away with, the need to constantly recruit was not a major requirement.
I showed in the previous post why I considered CF to be illegal in the UK and as far as other countries go thats admittedly not an area I'm familar with-although the US and Australian legal sytem no doubt has similar warnings. As far as making prices available-CF is not a trade organisation anyone can join and other Trade Distributors and Wholesalers although not making their prices public would not expect anyone interested in opening a new account to pay up front (although there maybe a minimum order amount for first orders).
Regards being given prices-If you have a business and are in the trade you could freeley request a price list from a potential new suppier/Distributor (just by giving your company details) and they would be more than happy to give one.
Of course it would only be a guide as further discounts could be acheived with quantity orders and showing loyality in other ways.
I'm glad you promote CF as a Holiday club, I mean why would you promote the pay $150 and get $6000 back as its just a nonsense. Unfortunately many people will join CF because of the potential (Not guaranteed of course) $6000 and these will be the ones who suffer the most when it all collapses and of course their upline will either dissapear, move on to the next scheme and say 'well you should have recruited harder'.
With CF & RT greed is the primary sales tool, whether expected or just an unlikely possibility all depends on the individual's perception, but as with all these schemes CF will do its best to make it look a certainty.
Its not just the greedy people that lose out (most of us are greedy) its those that can not afford to lose their money and just trust friends (either physical or virtual) who say this is a sure thing.
At last something we agree on its definately not a get rich scheme, so why ask people to pay to join without knowing the true savings on offer. Its illegal in the UK because its a Pyramid Scheme plain and simple, if you consider this anything else your falling for the scam.

Hang on earlier you said and now you say not that it matters to much as I'm sure there are some UK residents involved in this.

You asked for proof this scheme was illegal in the UK-I provided it.
You asked for a phone number-I provided it

Now you want me to call this number and provide documentation.
My key objective is to supply information which in turn may help others explore things further themselves, its all about self help & personal choice, not-'I say its a scam so it is', everyone has to take ownership for their own choices and if to help make these choices envloves doing research and even making the effort to call particular government organisations for further advice (thats why we pay taxes after all) all the better.

As far as I know CF isn't under UK investigation-its small potatoes and one of a multitude of these schemes that habit the internet.

One final thing because I've waffled on so much.
I dont actively go out picketing CF offices in Hong Kong & Belize (If they even excist) because theres no point-anyone who wants information on CF may find this thread via google or other search engines, If they ignore what I say and still join thats up to them at least by coming here they may have a vague idea that all is not as rosey as the picture CF paints of itself.

[theTraveller]

Have a look at the Crown Towers on the Gold Coast in Queensland Australia. That is one resort you can go to.. There are plenty more.

Sorry Me again.
As CF has introduced what seems to be a $50 extra charge for those joining after 01.01.07 its worth looking at what you actually get for your money.
Apart from joing a Pyramid Scheme in the hope you get $6000 back when you cycle off the main board.
I've added my observations in Blue.

Maybe I'm being to closed minded but show me the product or at least a picture or 2 of the holiday resorts on offer, c'mon give us a clue.

[beeswax]

My family has a very close affiliation with a discount holiday business on the Sunshine Coast of Queensland.
We can sell a PRIVATELY-OWNED, beautiful 2-bedroom unit in Crown Towers, with ALL facilities included, for $100 per night............. and get a good commission.
If we need to we can discount by up to 3 FREE NIGHTS if a full week is sold.

And that's ALL WITHOUT any hard-sell time share crap!

[Webwatch]

As to the legality of it. I'm only asking that you provide proof of legality because you keep saying it is. When you don't really know. you consider it illegal. But you make statements in lots of posts that it is. You don't know. You base it on a statement about pyramids. But you haven't called or received any proof that it is illegal. Australia does have similar laws as the US when it comes to the statement you quoted about pyramids. Yet in Australia Clubfreedom is not illegal.

Clubfreedom DOES have a product. and the site is not under construction anymore. Time share products may be available elsewhere, but I've not found them at the prices I can get them for at Clubfreedom.

7 nights at $450, $650, $850 (roughly) at big resorts all over the world are good prices.

These prices are not secrets.
I think I see your reasoning here-If CF is still operating and isn't under investigation then it can't be illegal.

In the early days all scams use this reasoning to add weight to their legitimacy but unfortunately its like saying a Drunk Driver is doing nothing wrong because he hasn't been caught or hasn't run anyone down.

Its still early days for CF and untill anyone complains then the authority's don't know about it.
We all know few people really complain they just accept the fact that it wasn't for them and move on to the next 'Business OP'.

The fact that CF falls into every Pyramid Scheme description available is still not enough-the chance of actually getting $6000 will always be worth risk for some and thats their choice.

You mention Crown Towers-How come it took a thread like this to get this information, why aren't the destinations pasted all over the CF website for everyone to see.

The prices are no secret but have little meaning without destinations, if you have to join first to get the destination information whats the point.

Without the Matrix/Pyramid program CF has nothing-its dependant on selling a dream ($6000 for $150) for its survival.

[theTraveller]

The autorities do know about it and there have been complaints about it from people with the same view point as you. That is my point.

ACCC here in Australia does know about it.

As to your comment Beeswax.. Big whoopy! there are always people who can get same or similar product cheaper somewhere. Most of us can't get it cheaper. And Crown Towers was only one example. There are plenty more. The company you know obviously doesn't have quite the exposure Clubfreedom does since most people I know haven't been able to get prices like Clubfreedom offers.

Perhaps you should advertise a bit stronger, offer those holidays to the public. The business will do extremely well I can tell you. There are so many people wanting cheap holidays like that.

I think I see your reasoning here-If CF is still operating and isn't under investigation then it can't be illegal.

In the early days all scams use this reasoning to add weight to their legitimacy but unfortunately its like saying a Drunk Driver is doing nothing wrong because he hasn't been caught or hasn't run anyone down.

Its still early days for CF and untill anyone complains then the authority's don't know about it.
We all know few people really complain they just accept the fact that it wasn't for them and move on to the next 'Business OP'.

The fact that CF falls into every Pyramid Scheme description available is still not enough-the chance of actually getting $6000 will always be worth risk for some and thats their choice.

You mention Crown Towers-How come it took a thread like this to get this information, why aren't the destinations pasted all over the CF website for everyone to see.

The prices are no secret but have little meaning without destinations, if you have to join first to get the destination information whats the point.

Without the Matrix/Pyramid program CF has nothing-its dependant on selling a dream ($6000 for $150) for its survival.

[darrenw]

Sorry Me again.
As CF has introduced what seems to be a $50 extra charge for those joining after 01.01.07

It's actually only an extra $35 as the current $15 admin fee will be scrapped.

[Webwatch]

It's actually only an extra $35 as the current $15 admin fee will be scrapped.
Thanks for the correction.
$15 admin fee is a bit steep anyway.

[darrenw]

Blame their credit card processor... I heard they take something like 8% of gross.

[Webwatch]

Maybe they should use Paypal (4% ish I think)-Of course they can't because Paypal doesn't like Pyramid Schemes.

[theTraveller]

PayPal also doesn't like Stock brokers who invest in options.
PayPal doesn't like people who Sell software for Palm OS.. And the list goes on.

I do both of those and had my PayPal account frozen on both occasions.

PayPal LOVES ebay though.. I wonder why that is...
But by all means use that arguement for getting back at Clubfreedom if you wish.

[Webwatch]

PayPal also doesn't like Stock brokers who invest in options.
PayPal doesn't like people who Sell software for Palm OS.. And the list goes on.

I do both of those and had my PayPal account frozen on both occasions.

PayPal LOVES ebay though.. I wonder why that is...
But by all means use that arguement for getting back at Clubfreedom if you wish.
No argument, just a statement of fact.

[concerned]

PayPal also doesn't like Stock brokers who invest in options.
PayPal doesn't like people who Sell software for Palm OS.. And the list goes on.

I do both of those and had my PayPal account frozen on both occasions.

PayPal LOVES ebay though.. I wonder why that is...
But by all means use that arguement for getting back at Clubfreedom if you wish.

You must not be a licensed broker, because I don't know of any stock brokers that use Paypal. I know I would stay far away from a broker that accepted Paypal, cause that sounds very suspecious. As for your software company, I don't know why they would do that, unless your participation in pyramid schemes was using the same Paypal account. That would be the only reason I can think of that your account is frozen.

In case you didn't know, Paypal doesn't love ebay. It is the other way around, and the reason why ebay bought Paypal. But because they allow so many scammers to use Paypal, I don't actually trust anyone that uses them.

[concerned]

PayPal also doesn't like Stock brokers who invest in options.
PayPal doesn't like people who Sell software for Palm OS.. And the list goes on.

I do both of those and had my PayPal account frozen on both occasions.

PayPal LOVES ebay though.. I wonder why that is...
But by all means use that arguement for getting back at Clubfreedom if you wish.

You must not be a licensed broker, because I don't know of any stock brokers that use Paypal. I know I would stay far away from a broker that accepted Paypal, cause that sounds very suspecious. As for your software company, I don't know why they would do that, unless your participation in pyramid schemes was using the same Paypal account. That would be the only reason I can think of that your account is frozen.

In case you didn't know, Paypal doesn't love ebay. It is the other way around, and the reason why ebay bought Paypal. But because they allow so many scammers to use Paypal, I don't actually trust anyone that uses them, but more importantly, I don't trust anyone even more when they can't even get a Paypal account, because the rules are so loose, that if they can't even get one, they are really shady.

[concerned]

PayPal also doesn't like Stock brokers who invest in options.
PayPal doesn't like people who Sell software for Palm OS.. And the list goes on.

I do both of those and had my PayPal account frozen on both occasions.

PayPal LOVES ebay though.. I wonder why that is...
But by all means use that arguement for getting back at Clubfreedom if you wish.

You must not be a licensed broker, because I don't know of any stock brokers that use Paypal. I know I would stay far away from a broker that accepted Paypal, cause that sounds very suspecious. As for your software company, I don't know why they would do that, unless your participation in pyramid schemes was using the same Paypal account. That would be the only reason I can think of that your account is frozen.

In case you didn't know, Paypal doesn't love ebay. It is the other way around, and the reason why ebay bought Paypal. But because they allow so many scammers to use Paypal, I don't actually trust anyone that uses them as their primary payment method, but more importantly, I don't trust anyone even more when they can't even get a Paypal account, because the rules are so loose, that if they can't even get one, they are really shady.

[the middle road]

I'm back, CF and Matrix Watch were driving me literally crazy, needed a break. One point though, you cant buy multiple postions anymore I've been told, but how can they stop that if someone tries hard enough.
I haven't moved up the table's for 3 weeks, I haven't been trying to sell, but obviously no one else has either.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[dontgetburned]

Canadian Diamond Traders is identical to Treasure Traders International which our organization reported to Interpol and Scotland Yard. They were declared illegal, closed in 5 months and bankrupt as we predicted. I personally endured abuse on these forums for publishing the truth. In Canada threatened and punched in the face, pushed into traffic outside a TTI meeting in Hamilton Ontario Canada by thugs at this meeting run by David Stewart father of RCMP Police Officer Harold Stewart of Hamilton. I am 65 years old. I have had my ribs broken by authorities, Also pushed toward traffic by a punk Canadian Cop, a gun pointed in my face by another punk cop, both incidents resulted in a reluctant apology, knock to the ground by fascist cops in front of high school students I was attempting to warn of these frauds and put on trial with outright perjured evidence by corrupt OPP officers.

It is obvious, in our opinion, supported by our investigative facts that the only reason TTI was not closed in Canada as a fraud is because corrupt RCMP officers, OPP Officers, government officials, corrupt lawyers, accountants even judges were involved in this fraud as they are in most of these pyramid frauds in Canada ever since (and probably before) the fraud of the decade, Women Empowering Women, that was started in Canada in 1998 and spread world-wide. People in England were misinformed believing it was started in the U.S.

The English cousin of Alan Kippax, Peter Kippax fleeing from England's authorities came to Canada, the country that harbours organized criminals, convicted mafia, money laundering big banks and the like, and instead of "keeping his nose clean" got into the black Porsche, one of about five high end sports cars his cousin Alan purchased with the millions from his money laundering crime and the result of them road racing on a city street? Demolished the car, killed himself and put two innocent Canadians, one a 21 year old school teacher, the other a young bank employee who were to be married shortly, in the hospital crushed and broken and near death and their future lives ruined.

His other cousin Andrew Kippax of the building dept. of the Manchester Government who also scammed victims in this fraud for several thousand pounds avoided exposure as far as we can ascertain.

Now, Canadian Diamond Traders is a pyramid fraud plain and simple. The same 1-2-4-8 four tier fraud circulated for decades. These diamonds do not make it legal. The company is continually sending out lies, propaganda, and misleading information.

The poster identified as "the Traveller" above states "The fact is also that Canadian Diamond Traders has been going for aprox 4 years and is still successful for a lot of people. It is not illegal and operates in all the same countries as Clubfreedom does.

“The Traveller" also writes "All I'm asking you guys is since you are so positive that Clubfreedom is illegal and wrong, show us the documents from any government body that states that it is illegal or give us the phone number of any organisation that can tell us its illegal."

In answer to your request to be told you are illegal and a phone number[/URL] - Canada 905-963-3389 is telling you ClubFreedom is as illegal as CDT and the rest. It is a fraud and morally reprehensible. CrimeBustersNow has never been wrong on these frauds; ever since we attacked the Women Empowering Women pyramid fraud.

Our organization is working closely with several Attorneys General of the U.S. and the Australian Government by email and telephone and anyone else attempting to shut down corruption as indicated in the following email. We are pro active will picket fraudulent meetings, organizations, corrupt police, money launder banks, court houses and anything else we find being corrupted. We are taking action and doing things never attempted before.

You may click onto our website and listen to the radio interview exposing this corruption in the highest offices of police and government particularly in Canada. These frauds are reprehensible and now into our universities, colleges, and even our high schools and spreading like wildfire through tight knit communities like the deaf community from which we are receiving complaints of victims being defrauded of $15,000 and more in CTD.

And don't give us this worn out tired "this is not for everyone" nonsense. Neither is bank robbery!!! As the U.S. judge said to the pyramid fraud artist as she sentenced him to 50 to 100 years in jail "this is worse than bank robbery, victims loses hundreds of millions and it destroys people's lives." And it might be added, if she did not, leads many to suicides.

Now you unconscionable fraud artist, "the Traveller," these frauds are being presented to students, many times by corrupted police officers, politicians, lawyers, accountants, church ministers, school board officials, teachers (one a provincial prosecutor in On. Can.... a teacher of law in college. Her own student she involved being threatened by the corrupt lawyer running the scam with a law suit and destruction of her credit if she refuses to go along with the illegal contract she was deviously led into signing.

Our organization is now suing for $10,000 each including punitive damages for several victims, most of them highschool students "blindsided, victimimized, lied to and mislead then intimidated, even by cops." You fraud artists with the "silver tongues" and absolutely no morals deserve to be given life for the enormous and unconscionable damage you do!!!

Now, here is your proof: the documents, the organizations and the phone numbers. Go to the International non profit organization www.crimebustersnow.com where you can watch as we strip apart the corrupt fundraising by police, the companies involved, even the non profit organization Crime Stoppers for haven sakes and their close association with the most or certainly one of the most disgusting fundraising organization in North America and a mayor who cuts a ribbon welcoming another disgusting telemarketing organization to his city. The corruption in this country Canada is unbelievable.


"Dear David

In response to your request I have just completed my enquiries and can advise that the Western Australian Department for Consumer and Employment Protection has not received any communication from any person (or lawyer) representing Canadian Diamond Traders in relation to the withdrawal of any statements relating to the activities of the company and/or its members. Indeed the statement remains as valid today as when it was released and will not be withdrawn.

I have reported the matter to the other mentioned States for their individual action, but my initial approaches confirms they also have had no contact, nor have they withdrawn anything.

I am also aware that the article by Channel 7 was broadcast on Tuesday 26 September 2006.

The issue remains that persons or corporations promoting or participating in Canadian Diamond Traders are operating in breach of the Fair Trading Act (WA) (and other States) and they may be prosecuted.


Regards



Compliance Officer
Retail and Service Industries Branch
Department of Consumer and Employment Protection
221 St Georges Terrace
PERTH WA 6000
Tel (08) 9282 0639
Fax (08) 9282 0862


dave [url]www.crimebustersnow.com (www.crimebustersnow.com) 905-963-3389 call 24/7 We return your calls toll free in North America and 22 countries world-wide. Tell you families, students, friends and fellow victims about us. We can show you simple ways to get these pyramid fraud artists and disgusting telemarketers.

[beeswax]

Good to hear you back "The Middle Road". I check in to 3 forums daily (hopeless isn't it!) and things appear to have slowed considerably with CF/RT.
At least I've got proof of a couple of people getting their $6K............. but so what, clever operators for the immediate future.
My feelings go out to the morons purchasing multiple $8.95 spots in a Revolting Travel (RT) Co-operative type, and the mugs (one has confessed to 22 positions bought!!!!) actually purchasing multiples through RT.
They've lost sight of the fact that soon someone will be caught.................. let's face it, it's only an up-dated version of the 40-year-old "Aeroplane Game"!!!!!
In saying all this however, I wish some of the operators on the MMG site were working for my business.

[The scales]

G'day all.

Have been lurking on the side since SEP-06 reading this post & trying to remain partial.

A friend joined in SEP-06 & originally asked me to join aswell. Initially I was skeptical as I know that Pyramid scams fail quickly.

Problem #1 occurred in OCT-06

Problem #2 occurred in NOV-06

Problem #3 occurred in DEC-06

After the 3rd time, I had to take action.

I joined afer 3 sessions of "egg on my face" from my friend getting paid 3-times already. His older brother introduced him & has been paid 3 times aswell. It was simply too much to handle. I couldn't continue to call it a money losing scam when he is making in a month what I make in two. (on top of his usual income)

I didn't believe he was getting paid, so I went to the ATM (Comm bank) with him to watch him draw out $2500 in a single hit & obtain the rest of the next day or two.

Mr conservative (me) couldn't ignore it any longer, so I joined.

I agree its a psuedo pyramid with multiple shady issue to be sorted (if they ever get sorted)

I agree it will collapse eventually but suspect its going to take 2+ years due to the international nature of it.

However, whilst its going, I will take advantage of the travel vouchers & make a dollar aswell. Without trying too hard, I am at the top of the feeder board with my two downlines & its been 1 week.

Importantly, the few people I have spoken too have been well informed about the pro's & con's I have read from this site ensuring they are making an "informed" choice.

Like some others, my income means I can afford to lose the money if it crashes tommorrow as can my downlines. So my way of justification is to treat it as a casual experiment. If I make the US$6000, great. If not, life continues.

Have told a few other mates what I am doing without asking them to join. However, I have told them "You are joing if I get the cash" & they have all agreed. Their thoughts are like my own. I had to see it (3-times) before I could believe it.

Already, my (original) mate is off overseas & leaves in 1 week courtesy of this scheme/scam. Although he is paying his own airfare. Another mate is currently in Japan too but I only learnt it was thanks to CF when I signed up a mutual friend who mentioned him.

WEB...... You will never be convinced but your opposition adds good weight to balancing the debate. Keep it going but after 10 pages the repitition means I am only skimming your posts now.

If anything new comes up, I most certainly will be interested.

[Webwatch]

Hello The Scales and welcome to Matrixwatch.

Please keep us posted on how you get on with this scheme, its been a while since I looked at its progress-last thing I heard was RT was stung with a bit of credit card fraud (a scam being scammed how sweet).

The chances of getting in now and receiving any return is extremely slim but if you have gift for recruiting/duping others there maybe a slim possibility.

2+ years maybe a bit optimistic I'd expect to see slowdown in the next month or soo- a big clue to this will be spin off programs trying to lure more members in, 6k4you.com looks like one.

[FBI444]

Ive already placed around 5 thousand and Ive seen no returns at all!......Its a scam.

[FBI444]

people should wake up to themselves and save there money. The only person who benefits are the directors because they cycle through hundreds of times as where we may cycle through maybe once

[elpedro]

Ive already placed around 5 thousand and Ive seen no returns at all!......Its a scam.

Your just an idiot then, why would you put $5000 into it? I have purchased three positions only after I tested it out with one first though. My first has now cycled and my others will cycle soon.

[Webwatch]

Just a quick bump for this thread as I found something quite amusing.

Way back on page 2 of this thread http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4625&page=2
I mentioned how Club Freedom had the wrong image for their office building alledged address (They where using City Bank Plaza instead of the Shun Tak Centre) this has now been corrected on the CF clone/referal pages that are infesting the internet.

Maybe someone from CF went to the wrong office block to work one morning and then realised their mistake.:D

Of course they wouldn't be stupid enough to use the same image I did :nono: , yes you guessed it they have (albeit with a tiny bit of cropping).lol

[beeswax]

Good to hear from you Web.

The drop off in hype, indeed any communication at all, at My Money's Gone lately is in complete contrast to what had been happening on that thread.
Representation and input from RT gone very quiet.

[Webwatch]

Hi Beeswax, nice to hear from you to-I think theres a CF spin off (6k4you) trying to squeeze a bit more out of the members but all MMG posters do is keep blowing smoke up each other to keep the threads on the first page (saves CF the cost of paying MMG for a sticky I suppose).

[The scales]

G'day guys.

Since my original post a few things have happened.

My friend who got into this back in SEP-06 has now been paid 4 times US$24k & I personally took him to the airport last THU for his overseas trip. Could have choosen anywhere but has gone to Manila to chase some "Sucky sucky". (deprived boy, I know). Cashed up & a paid for holiday, I'm betting they are going to be "loving him long time".........lol

I have signed a couple more people on but am still filling the bottom row of the board that will push me into the payment board (currently on top of feeder board) . At least its progress...lol

The 2-people I originally signed on are still coming up to speed but to asisst them, I have spoken to a couple of their contacts proving posative in one case. Work, family & play times leave little left for CF promo but I will persist.

I scored an e-mail saying there is an official meeting & promo at Balmain leauges club (SYD) on 17 JAN 07 so myself & others interested but not yet involved will be attending to get answers on how it actually works as I am still not 100%.

Will let all know about this event after that date.

[Webwatch]

Hi The Scales,
Wow you friend must be some serious recruiter in this to have cycled 4 times.

Did they tell you which Function Room would be used for the Tigers Balmain League Club meeting i.e. Golden Legends Room, Bayview or Auditorium.

I haven't been to one of these Pyramid Scheme meetings for ages, a great game to play is 'Spot the Shill' where you try and guess which audience members are plants.

Thanks for the update The Scales and please keep us posted.

[Bourko]

I have just received my certificate from Club Freedom and tried to log my certificate into the Wholesale Leisure Holidays website. Surprisingly, the website wouldn't accept my voucher number and therefore I couldn't get access to my "Discount" holiday vouchers.

I rang Wholesale Leisure Holidays who answered the phone as "Future Consulting Services" and they informed me that RCI were handling all the vouchers and that I should ring RCI directly. They even gave me RCI's number. I rang RCI and they were happy to sell me the "Discount Vouchers".

Do not be deceived, RCI the timeshare scam artists are up to their eyeballs in this rort.

[Jamie]

Did you graduate from the pyramid and receive the $6000+the travel voucher or is this the travel voucher you are supposed to get when you sign up?

Thanks,
Jamie

[Bourko]

I haven't qualified yet and don't really expect to. This was the initial voucher I got on sign on which is meant to entitle me to a range of discount vouchers. Do you know if anyone has reported this scam to the authorities?

[Jamie]

The ACCC have tried to shut it down but apparently since the money goes overseas (or to mars for all we know) they cannot touch it.

Thanks,
Jamie

[Jamie]

Sorry I forgot to ask before. Have you asked clubfreedom about this voucher problem?

Thanks,
Jamie

[Bourko]

No not yet, I thought I would go straight to the distributor of the vouchers. I will follow up this week.

[beeswax]

Web, did you ever get to that meeting at the Balmain Leagues Club?

[Webwatch]

Web, did you ever get to that meeting at the Balmain Leagues Club?
Sorry Beeswax-I never made it (a bit to far for me to travel).
Not sure if The Scales went though.

[dragon]

Heej people,

Club Freedom an Revolving Travel are really good opportunities. Really good system.
But I find out few days ago something amazing, that is Revolving Travel co-op. Wonderful idea and organization, great team, and team leader. For people who hear first time for Club Freedom very cheap way to come in, just 9$. And for people who are already in CF excellent way to improve their board, to make it faster...

Just take a few minutes and read "How it works"
**PM For Info**

I need just 2 min to decide, do not hesitate

:applause:

[Webwatch]

Hello dragon and welcome to Matrixwatch.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I think you may find your $9 have been wasted.
Unless you buy 10 position's and then thats $90 wasted.

Please take some time to read the thread from the beginning-don't just take my word for it though as I'm obviously a Dream Stealer.

[beeswax]

Good to hear from you Dragon, welcome also.
I've been watching the progress of SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many who have positions in everything known to mankind that finally directs to CF...... co-ops, RT, 6K4u, etc etc spinoffs. That is they have multiples and have no idea where they're at. This has been going on since late August. Every now and then one of them excites all the others by announcing that they've just cycled and got their $6k. 98% of them seem very envious and can't understand why they haven't done the same!
It would appear that a lot of these people are devoting hours a day, every day, to CF.
4 x months for, in most cases, no return!!!!!!
Doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

[topguy]

Hi Guys

Haven't been here for while. Thought i would come and say hi. I was just reading a few posts of the last month or so and i thought i would try and clear a few things up.

The first thing is that Club Freedom is not a scam. It is a business that anyone can join. You can join at any time and you will have the same opportunity as the first person that joined.

If you understood how it works you would see that.

Secondly with the voucher all you have to do is put the number of the voucher in the area provided and put the password "wlh" (the whole membership has the same password) and you will see how it works. I am lost to why you would get in contact with the company first to solve the problem. But each to their own.

Club freedom meetings are great you should make the effort and go to one because you get to meet people there that have been paid their marketing fee and how it has changed their life. They also let you know the holiday they went on (some people go to some out there locations) but they all have a good break.

Every body needs a holiday sometime in their life this is why Club freedom is a great program - it suits everyone.

I have cycled 5 times now - that US$30,000 in 6 months

Regards

topguy

[Seany]

OK, I'm back. Below is my attempt at figuring this out. I still think I'm goofed up as far as the part where the person who cycles enters the main board again. Could you get me straightened out?

-Merc


1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total = $150.
2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House total = $450
3. You now wait for 7 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 2". 7 x $150 = $1050. House Total = $1500
4. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 3". 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $2700
5. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to "step 4". 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $3900
6. You now wait for 8 other people to sign-up. You are now moved on to the main table. 8 x $150 = $1200. House Total = $5100

7 + 8 + 8 + 8 = 31 people needed to sign-up to make it to the main board.

Now you are on the main board. For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the main board is fully populated when you get there.

7. )

How do you get these people to sign up? Assuming the internet is a good place to start, do you think there are enough people out there who will be gullible and foolhardy to part with their mone? Well, I think I answered my own question. There are enough 'suckers' out there. Otherewise there's no need for this site.

[mercinary]

How do you get these people to sign up? Assuming the internet is a good place to start, do you think there are enough people out there who will be gullible and foolhardy to part with their mone? Well, I think I answered my own question. There are enough 'suckers' out there. Otherewise there's no need for this site.

No...there aren't enough people to sign up. Usually there are just enough people to sign up such that the first few people on in the pyramid get paid off. More times than not, those people at the top are either the owner of the scheme, or close friends of the owner...

-Merc

[dragon]

No...there aren't enough people to sign up. Usually there are just enough people to sign up such that the first few people on in the pyramid get paid off. More times than not, those people at the top are either the owner of the scheme, or close friends of the owner...

-Merc


Clubfreedom is NOT pyramid. If somebody come later and work hard he will advance faster then somebody who come before and don't work.
YES MLM, but NOT pyramide

[Webwatch]

Clubfreedom is NOT pyramid. If somebody come later and work hard he will advance faster then somebody who come before and don't work.
YES MLM, but NOT pyramide
That person is working harder by:
A. Recruiting more members under him (Downline Building)

B. Selling Holiday Vouchers.
I'm guessing A.

Club Freedoms trick is to try and convince everyone it isn't a Pyramid scheme, I can't for the life of me figure out how they keep doing it, maybe its the $6000 reward thats causing confusion.

Even by attaching Revolving Travel to it which is a smaller Pyramid Scheme still they convince members its all legitimate.

Club Freedom FAQ
Is this a Pyramid Scheme?
No this is certainly not a Pyramid Scheme. It is a fully legal company utilizing a new type of network marketing structure. The company is operating in virtually every country as a legit company.

Is this Multi Level Marketing?
It is not a Multi Level Marketing system as such. It does require you to do some network marketing, but it is much more limited then a standard Multi Level Marketing system would require you to do. In this system you only need two referrals. This system does not require any monthly purchases/quotas, nor does it require any targets. Once you're in the system, that's it. You are qualified. If you want to get more people, then that will only benefit you in terms of the rewards you receive.
Most Pyramid Schemes will say they are not Pyramid Schemes which makes my research so much easier, but they don't usually slip up later in the FAQ by comparing themselves to other Pyramid Schemes.How does this system differ from all the other pyramids and MLM systems out there?
Well for the best explanation on that, have a read of the How it works page. If you require more information on how it differs, please contact us with the email form on the right of this page.A bit later on the FAQ's go into describing cycle times based on recruiting, not selling a product or service of anykind.How long does it take to cycle through the system?This depends on how quickly you and the other members of your Boards take action and sponsor the two (or more) people required to qualify. Remember, to cycle through the Traveller position you MUST have two directly under you, either from your own efforts, spillover or freebees.


What payment methods are accepted by Clubfreedom?
At the moment Payment can only be made by Visa, Mastercard, E-gold and eCashwallet.
We hope to have e-bullion very soon.
With the recent Safe Port Act I wonder if CF will still be accepting e-gold in the near future.

Remember this is a company that got the picture of its own building wrong and then copied the one I used earlier in this thread.

[darrenw]

Club Freedom FAQ

Most Pyramid Schemes will say they are not Pyramid Schemes which makes my research so much easier, but they don't usually slip up later in the FAQ by comparing themselves to other Pyramid Schemes.A bit later on the FAQ's go into describing cycle times based on recruiting, not selling a product or service of anykind.


Where did you find that stuff (what url)? I couldn't see any of those questions in the faq on Clubfreedom or Revolving Travel.

[Webwatch]

Hi Darren, I It seems CF have changed there FAQ from this older version that I had saved.

There is still some promoters websites with most of the older version intact though:
http://www.clubfreedoms.com/faq.htm
1. What payment methods are accepted by Clubfreedom?

At the moment Payment can only be made by Visa, Mastercard, E-gold and eCashwallet.

We hope to have e-bullion very soon.

2. What is the total cost to participate in Clubfreedom?

The total cost is $200.00US one-time.

Broken down as follows:

$150.00 goes towards your Discount Voucher
$50.00 processing fee

3. What will I receive for my $200.00?

You will receive the following:-

$150 Discount Voucher off any US$1000 Vacation Voucher.
Privileged password access to your personal online Global Vacation booking office where you choose and book your vacation package.
One Free position in our Lucrative Rewards System.

What will I receive when I cycle the main board?

$6000.00US paid directly to your ecashwallet within 7 days
$825 Vacation Voucher once only on completion of a main board cycle
An automatic Free re-entry into the Main Travel Board under your original sponsor.

4. How will I get paid?

When you become a Traveller and all 8 positions are filled on your Main Travel Board you will receive a congratulations email containing your ecashwallet username and password, which will be set up for you.

From within your ecashwallet account you will be able to order your personal global debit card. Also, your $6000 payment will be credited to your account at the same time, from where you can load your Travel card, transfer funds to other ecashwallet users around the globe or have those funds transferred to any bank account of your choice anywhere in the world.

5. What are the $150 Discount Vouchers?

This is what you Purchase when you join Clubfreedom. These are redeemable against a Vacation Voucher to the value of $1000 (Optional purchase)

If you choose to purchase any of these already great valued Vacation Vouchers, which entitles you and your family or friends to a 7 day stay at one of over 3500 resorts around the globe, will give an additional $150 discount off the above prices. This alone represents a discount saving of between $400 and $2000!


6. Are the Discount Vouchers and Certificates redeemable no matter what country I am from?

Yes.

7. What is the difference between the Feeder Board and the Main Board?

The Feeder Boards is where EVERYONE joins and acts as a stepping stone to generate the required funds to gain access into the Main Boards. Please note, everyone that joins directly under you in the feeder level will follow you onto the Main Boards.

8. Why create a feeder?

The Feeder level has specifically been designed to ensure affordability to the masses, AND more importantly, gives everyone the chance to generate massive rewards and benefits from a single low one-time payment.

9. How long does it take to cycle through the system?

This depends on how quickly you and the other members of your Boards take action and sponsor the two (or more) people required to qualify. Remember, to cycle through the Traveller position you MUST have two directly under you, either from your own efforts, spillover or freebees.

10. What is a freebee?

A Freebee is a person that is given to a member without the member having to sponsor anyone themselves. It has been put in place to assist members who have less than their two qualifying people.

A Freebee is generated in two ways. . .

A member on your board sponsors more than the two required to qualify
Clubfreedom generated Freebees from company marketing

11. What advantage do I receive for introducing more than two people?

The follow-the-leader system allows all members to follow their referrals. If you bring in many people, when you re-enter the Main Board you have a higher chance of not having to sponsor any new members, because all the people you brought in will ALWAYS follow you and push you through the cycle faster.

12. Can I have multiple positions in the system?

Yes, you can have as many positions as you want.

Every time you register with Clubfreedom you must create a new unique User ID. (numbers and lowercase letters only).

In order to track this easily, we suggest members enter a numeric value at the end of each User ID
(e.g. you1, you2; you3, etc.)

13. How do I keep track of my position on my Board?

Once you are placed in the system, you may enter your online members area at any time to see your position on the board. You will also see where you are in relation to all others members on your board.

14. How come I did not get a Freebee yet?

Not everyone gets Freebees. In fact, you may never get a Freebee. Clubfreedom encourages you to get your two qualifying members. Freebees are a system generated bonus to assist members to succeed, not do the work for them.

15. If I enter the Main Board and refer someone into the feeder system what happens to that person?

They will enter the feeder system on a board closest to your immediate downline. They will also become a Freebee for someone on that board. However, when they cycle out of the feeder system they will follow you into the Main board.

16. How come when the board divides (splits) my referrals did not follow me to my new board?

When the board splits, the members of the original board are placed on the two new boards based on fairness and balance. The system automatically splits the board causing the strong and weak members to be distributed among both boards equally. This gives each board a chance to move at the same rate. However, the follow-the-leader system ensures that every time your downline re-enter as a "Reservation" member they go to your board and become your referral first.

17. Is this a Pyramid Scheme?

No, this is certainly not a Pyramid Scheme. It is a fully legal company utilizing a new type of network marketing structure. The company is operating as a legit company.

18. Is this Multi Level Marketing?

It is not a Multi Level Marketing system as such. It does require you to do some network marketing, but it is much more limited then a standard Multi Level Marketing system would require you to do. In this system you only need two referrals. This system does not require any monthly purchases/quotas, nor does it require any targets. Once you're in the system, that's it. You are qualified. If you want to get more people, then that will only benefit you in terms of the rewards you receive.

19. How much time and effort do I need to put into this to get my holidays?

The minimum effort is to get yourself qualified and on the matrix. This requires you to get your two referrals. In terms of time needed to achieve that, well that all depends on you.

CHECK OUT "TOUGH" CLUBFREEDOM QUESTIONS

JOIN NOW

The Current CF FAQ just gives this info:
Frequently Asked Questions


What payment methods are accepted by Clubfreedom?

We currently accept payment via Visa, Mastercard, E-gold, E-bullion and eCashwallet.


What is the total cost to participate in Clubfreedom?

The total cost is $200.00 one-time.

Broken down as follows:

$150.00 for your Wholesale Access Certificate
$50.00 membership fee

What will I receive for my $200.00?

You will receive the following:

$150 Wholesale Access Certificate
Privileged password access to your personal online Global Vacation booking office where you choose and book your vacation package
One Free position in our Lucrative Rewards System

I just hate it when the incrimminating FAQ's get changed.

[darrenw]

I signed up months ago and read the faq and never saw those questions; seems to me they were never official clubfreedom questions, but something a member has added on themselves when putting the faq on their own site.

[Webwatch]

I signed up months ago and read the faq and never saw those questions; seems to me they were never official clubfreedom questions, but something a member has added on themselves when putting the faq on their own site.
Damn the Mysterious disapearing FAQ.

I had better post the T & C in case they change as well:
http://clubfreedom.biz/terms.php
Clubfreedom Terms and Conditions

Clubfreedom Company Policies. These Policies and Procedures were formulated for the purpose of ensuring growth and practical business operations, for you to use on a regular basis. Please refer to them when you have questions about Clubfreedom or need to clarify any concerns about your business practices.

Clubfreedom reserves the right to revise this information at any time.

Clubfreedom uses the term Member, Independent member, Marketing Consultant as one and the same.

When you register as an Independent Member of Clubfreedom you agree to follow and be bound by the Company Code of Ethics and all the Policies and Procedures, which are incorporated into the Member Application.

Violations of the Company Code of Ethics, Member Agreement, or the written Policies and Procedures may be cause for cancellation of Membership. Please read through these Policies and Procedures carefully to fully benefit and understand your rights and responsibilities as a Clubfreedom.biz Member.

The Clubfreedom Product: A non-refundable US$150.00 Wholesale Access Certificate which entitles the bearer to gain access to a US$675.00 7 Night Vacation Voucher (Accommodation Package).

1. CODE OF ETHICS
i) I will follow the highest standards of honesty and integrity in all that I do.
ii) I will not make negative or disparaging remarks about Clubfreedom, their officers and employees, other people, products or firms.
iii) I will present our marketing plan accurately and honestly, clearly portraying the level of effort required to achieve success.

iv) I will carry out all the duties of sponsorship and responsible leadership as I build my business. I will treat everyone, whether they are in my sales team or not, with the same courtesy.
v) I will not promote Clubfreedom as a Tax avoidance scheme.
vi) I will not produce marketing or training aids of any kind for sale to other members without the prior written permission from Company
vii) I will consistently put forth my best efforts to promote the success of my business. I will not engage in activities that will cause loss to another Member or Clubfreedom.

viii) I will not use Company’s name, information literature, gatherings of people or other Company Resources to further other business interests (i.e. selling insurance etc. or sponsoring into other companies).
ix) I will abide by all Policies and Procedures that pertain to the operation of my business.

2. ALLOCATION OF POSITIONS on Travel Boards
Once Clubfreedom has accepted a Member application and the $150.00 Wholesale Access Certificate payment has been paid that member will be allocated to the closest position to their sponsors Travel Board In the order of ID Number Time and Day of Week of joining.

3. POLICIES AND PROCEDURES
i) An applicant is considered to be a duly authorized Independent Member, herein after called the Member, if Clubfreedom accepts the completed Member Application and Agreement.
ii) Company reserves the right to accept or reject any Member Application and Agreement form without having to assign any reason for its acceptance or rejection.
iii) All Members are independent contractors and are neither agents nor employees of Clubfreedom.
iv) The Member is responsible for bearing all costs and expenses incurred in the conduct of their Membership.
v) An Applicant must be 18 years of age.
vi) A Member must have only one sponsor.
vii) Husbands and wives, married or de facto, may sponsor each other or have different sponsors. This also applies to any interlocking directorships or share holdings that may exist from a business/ Member relationship.

However it should be noted, that all Members must meet their own personal qualification levels to receive Income.

If a married couple have joined as one Applicant and become divorced, the Membership shall be maintained in the name of the principal Applicant on the Member Application unless the company receives a certified copy of Divorce Decree which orders otherwise. A Member cannot resign and rejoin under a different name.

4. SPONSORING
All Members have the right to sponsor others. A sponsoring Member has the responsibility to assist, train, develop and monitor a person they introduce, in the various aspects of the program.

In addition, every person has the right to choose his or her own sponsor. If two Members should claim to be the sponsors of the same new Member, Company shall regard the first Application received as controlling.

A sponsoring Member must not exaggerate the earning potential that may result from this business opportunity.

A sponsoring Member is obliged to fairly and fully explain the marketing plan to all prospective Members, making sure to stress that the degree of success is directly related to individual effort and ability.

5. THE SALE OF A MEMBERSHIP
A Membership may be sold with the written approval of Clubfreedom as long as no Team Leaders are disadvantaged. Therefore, it can be sold to any other member or prospective Member, but the position of that membership for sale in the Sales Team will remain unchanged and the rest of Sales Team shall remain at their current position.

Members who sell their Clubfreedom business can rejoin Company as soon as the sale has been executed and has been authorized by Company.

6. DEATH
In the event of death, a membership may be willed. Official proof of the inheritors must be provided to Company However, Company will not be party to division and will only recognize one inheritor, be it individual, married couple, or a Business.

7. MISREPRESENTATION
Members will not misrepresent Clubfreedom in any manner whatsoever at any time. For purposes of this policy, misrepresentation includes, but is not necessarily limited to the following:
i) Reviewing the marketing plan with any person without clearly advising them that no remuneration is received solely for enrolling or sponsoring new members.ii) Reviewing the marketing plan with any person without clearly advising them that there is no requirement to pay a fee other than the purchase of the $150.00 Wholesale Access Certificate plus membership fee.
iii) Stating that any person has made or may make any specific income through the use of the marketing plan and by the generation of income, whether by specific example, geometric progression, or otherwise. Unless in the same presentation it is stated that said hypothetical or potential earnings, as earnings may vary due to individual efforts, geographic location, timing and many other factors.

8. ADVERTISING
Advertising in any form is strictly prohibited without written authorization from Company. This includes advertising business opportunity or income benefits whether or not Company name or logo is used. This includes advertising in; newspapers, magazines, on flyers, letterbox drops, radio, television, recorded messages on answering machines, barter card type systems and the like, any telephone directories, White Pages, Yellow Pages, local directories and the like. Members are only permitted to promote and/or advertise themselves as Independent Members of Clubfreedom.

Members are not permitted to take advantage of Company’s name and are therefore not permitted to either infer or imply that they have a direct association or affiliation with Company by promoting themselves by way of Clubfreedom name variations e.g. The Liberty Club, Liberty Marketing, Liberty Promotions etc.

All advertising and promotional material authorized by Company can be used by Members. No Member will be permitted to have exclusive rights to approved advertising and promotional material. Failure to comply will result in the immediate cancellation of the offending membership.

9 LITERATURE
Solely Company produces the only literature approved for use by members.

All promotional material appearing on the Web Site is approved for downloading to print and copying onto disc for promotional use to prospective members however it may not be altered or added to in any way.

10 MEDIA
No Member may speak for Clubfreedom by way of an interview on radio, television or through the press, including any periodical. If approached for such purpose the Member should contact Company.

11. CHANGE OF ADDRESS AND/OR PHONE NO - EMAIL ADDRESS
It is the responsibility of the member to Edit and update any change of address, telephone number, or E-mail address. This can happen by going into the members area on your website using the username and password that was given by you upon registration This will ensure that all members’ details are kept up to date.

12. SALES PAYMENTS
Income generated from marketing commissions of sales of Wholesale Access Certificates will be deposited into each member’s Private Virtual eCashTrust Account by the 7th day following the completion of attaining traveller position and cycling off a Travel Board.

Also the member upon completion of an initial (First Cycle) cycle on a travel board shall immediately receive confirmation in their members area a Clubfreedom Premier Vacation Voucher valued at US$1000.00 redeemable from Clubfreedom travel at a time of their choosing with an expiry time of 2 years from time of receipt.

13. THE MAINTENANCE and MEMBERSHIP FEE
Company at its discretion can charge a Maintenance fee from members marketing fees if deemed neccessary to cover the maintenance of your Business. Also at any time may introduce a Clubfreedom annual membership fee.

14. DOWNLINE and TRAVEL BOARD REPORTS
Members can view their personal downline report and travel boards online anytime by entering their members area with password.

15. CANCELLATION
Should a Member wish to cancel their Membership Agreement with Company the Member should notify Clubfreedom by E-mail. If the Membership is cancelled, that member may not apply for a new membership for at least 6 months after Company has received the notice of cancellation.
Company reserves the right to cancel a membership Agreement should there be any breach by the member of the Agreement.



Clubfreedom Anti-Spam Policy

COMPANY HAS A ZERO TOLERANCE ANTI-SPAM POLICY.

THIS MEANS THAT ANY TEAM LEADER OR MEMBER OR RELATED PARTICIPANT THAT SPAM'S IN ANY WAY SHALL BE IMMEDIATELY TERMINATED WITH ALL RIGHTS FORFEITED.

The following Acceptable use (Anti-Spam) policy sets forth what activities on the part of a Company member will not be tolerated under any circumstances. These policies will be enforced to insure Clubfreedom continued reputation remains as a high quality, professional company. Company will immediately terminate any member found engaging in spamming or any illegal activity. Their membership shall be terminated and they will be charged two hundred dollars (US $200.00) for each reported spamming activity as a penalty and damage charge. Company will immediately contact state and federal authorities to report such activity as it is a crime in many jurisdictions to Spam. Any Member, person or entity found spamming will have their relationship to Clubfreedom terminated when Company receives complaints from any part of the Internet community and verifies same. All Members are required to agree and adhere to these stated conditions. A Member cannot violate any applicable local, state, federal or international law. Illegal spamming activity includes posting identical or substantially similar articles to an excessive (more than 3) number of newsgroups or continued posting of articles which are of topic for a newsgroup; Sending unsolicited mass (to more than 10 users) emailing which provoke complaints from the recipients or where the recipients have not agreed, prior to such mailing to accept such emails. Unsolicited commercial advertisements will be treated as illegal Spam.

Clubfreedom WILL FULLY COOPERATE WITH ALL CRIMINAL AUTHORITIES TO PROVIDE INFORMATION AS TO THE PERSON OR PERSONS THAT ENGAGED IN THE SPAMMING ACTIVITY IN ORDER TO OBTAIN WARRANTS AND CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THOSE PARTICIPANTS.

Can anyone explain this clause to me:7. MISREPRESENTATION
Members will not misrepresent Clubfreedom in any manner whatsoever at any time. For purposes of this policy, misrepresentation includes, but is not necessarily limited to the following:
i) Reviewing the marketing plan with any person without clearly advising them that no remuneration is received solely for enrolling or sponsoring new members.So the only way to receive the $6000 is by downline building but you can't tell anybody that.

Has anyone used one of these Wholesale Access Certificates (or WAC's:eek: ) yet to book a holiday in a timeshare resort with one of the vouchers.

[beeswax]

The FAQs you're referring to were DEFINITELY on the official CF website when this thread commenced

[darrenw]

In that case, I guess they should have this in the FAQ too, not just their T&C:

Clubfreedom reserves the right to revise this information at any time.

[Webwatch]

Club Freedom can change whatever they like.
I doubt however even they can change the laws of mathematics and eventually this program will run out of steam.

When a scheme such as this starts to fail there will always be warning signs though-watch for your upline making statements like.
'Buy more positions, it will help you cycle'.

Are they still taking E-gold ?

More importantly have they fixed the unsecure page asking for Credit Card details yet. Last time I checked it was still showing HTTP:// instead of HTTPS://

Sorry about the FAQ confusion I made a mistake not saving the original page.

[mbb blog]

Post Spamming

[xaine05]

Hello everyone,

I am a Clubfreedom member! I joined last October and I am still yet to cycle. I am now in the belief that Clubfreedom does not work for the average Joe. I have completely exhausted my warm market and unfortunately this has lead to people signing up whom then don't do anything. I have sit in the same position since November of last year, my father made it to the main board and it has also done nothing for more than 3 months.

I do believe that the system could work although it's biggest downfall is the boards splitting etc. Even when my people were getting their two there were those whom have done nothing and they kept following us every time the board split. so for those 3 individuals that never did anything I had to try and find 6 people to fill their spaces. Now the boards are completely stagnant and will not move. I have done mass email marketing (all legit), signed up with MLM forums to promote it and yet nothing.

I would like to personally slap the higher ups for telling people "it's so simple all you need is get two people" and this would be correct in a perfect world where everybody got their two. I have invested so much time, both myself and my father and we are to the point of giving up.

If there is anyone out there whom can change my mind please by all means. Although i don't want to hear "you just have to keep trying" or "be persistent" the money I outlaid for leads I would love to see come back and I just don't think it will happen.

Ideally what should happen is the boards reconfigure according to your downline and those whom have never had a sign up get ushed into other boards. My downline have scattered everywhere and I think if maybe we were all combined and placed accordingly I would have cycled by now.

This is all I have to say - if anyone can shed some light please feel free to contact me at **PM for Info**

[Webwatch]

Hello Zane and welcome to Matrixwatch.

Unfortunately yours is a common story and one which many downline builders will be unable to help with.

Sure they will say, 'work harder', 'buy more positions' and join our team its the best but unfortunatley there is no Team in Pyramid Scheme and the leaders of these 'Teams' know how this works and ultimately very few will ever cycle.
Of course there will be those that say they have cycled and some will even claim multiple cycles but Pyramid Schemes are built on deception and illusions of huge wealth for doing very little.

I'm still not sure how all these board splits work but even without these splits a ratio of around 60 to 70 members for each one to cycle is needed.

CF's only product appears to be a WAC (Wholesale Access Certificate) which gives you access to other promotional vouchers for time shares of varying cost.

There are a multitude of ways into this either by joining a co-op $9 ish Revolving Travel $65 or CF direct $200.00 which ever way is chosen the odds are still stacked against you.

Admittedly i'm surprised how long this has lasted but slow down and eventual collapse are inevitable.

Just my opinion of course and sorry its so gloomy.

[incorp]

Hello my friends. I am one of the upline members here at "Clubfreedom". I wanted to address my concerns with some of the ideas presented in this forum that are laying groundwork to shadow the credibility of this company. This business is not a pyramid. If you were to do the proper research, you would understand this.

This is a quote from Mercenary: "And that is the key! The thing is, it is a pyramid and it requires an exponential number of people to sign up in order for people to continue cycling! Mathematically impossible....even if ever single person on the earth signed up, a GIANT percentage would never make it to the top..

This is the fundamental flaw in your assessment. Allow me to clear up this matter for everyone. 1. A member needs a minimum of two people to qualify for their commissions in this company. 2. The people that join Clubfreedom stick with and follow that member in the business for life. That means that you are not finding an exponential amount of people for this business and that is why it is not a pyramid. Remember that within the system there are like minded network marketers that are working toward the same goal. When a member cycles, so will the people that joined him/her. One thousand dollars of commission will be used to re-enter the system to duplicate the process again for its member(s). This process is called Revolving Matrix.

Finding an infinite amount of people for a network business is a pyramid and is also illegal. Please do not confuse this highly respected company as such a thing. Clubfreedom has been operational for less than one year and has already made its members thousands upon thosands of dollars.

Anyone with questions about clubfreedom, please contact me anytime at
**PM For Info**

To Your Success,


Wes Heald

[Arzel]

Hello my friends. I am one of the upline members here at "Clubfreedom". I wanted to address my concerns with some of the ideas presented in this forum that are laying groundwork to shadow the credibility of this company. This business is not a pyramid. If you were to do the proper research, you would understand this.

This is a quote from Mercenary: "And that is the key! The thing is, it is a pyramid and it requires an exponential number of people to sign up in order for people to continue cycling! Mathematically impossible....even if ever single person on the earth signed up, a GIANT percentage would never make it to the top..

This is the fundamental flaw in your assessment. Allow me to clear up this matter for everyone. 1. A member needs a minimum of two people to qualify for their commissions in this company. 2. The people that join Clubfreedom stick with and follow that member in the business for life. That means that you are not finding an exponential amount of people for this business and that is why it is not a pyramid. Remember that within the system there are like minded network marketers that are working toward the same goal. When a member cycles, so will the people that joined him/her. One thousand dollars of commission will be used to re-enter the system to duplicate the process again for its member(s). This process is called Revolving Matrix.

Finding an infinite amount of people for a network business is a pyramid and is also illegal. Please do not confuse this highly respected company as such a thing. Clubfreedom has been operational for less than one year and has already made its members thousands upon thosands of dollars.

Anyone with questions about clubfreedom, please contact me anytime at
**PM For Info**

To Your Success,


Wes Heald

Matrix, Ponzi, Pryamid. They are all sheets from the same cloth. The matrix model does not work when the primary reason for joining is downline building. If people were joining for the purpose of actually starting a real business that would be one thing, but it is clear that this business is about building a downline.

[Webwatch]

Hello Wes and welcome to Matrixwatch.

We are obviously going to disagree on this but let me explain why I believe your assesment is incorrect.

1. A member needs a minimum of two people to qualify for their commissions in this company.This statement alone proves the Pyramid Scheme aspect as even with just the need to recruit 2 this does not acheive a cycle only the qualification to cycle.
CF will have you believe that exponential growth is easy ie: 2 recruit 2 who recruit 2 etc but it isn't, partly because of a wider awareness of these schemes but mainly due to oversaturation as everyone clambers to build their downline.

Then you stated2. The people that join Clubfreedom stick with and follow that member in the business for life. That means that you are not finding an exponential amount of people for this business and that is why it is not a pyramid. Remember that within the system there are like minded network marketers that are working toward the same goal. When a member cycles, so will the people that joined him/her. One thousand dollars of commission will be used to re-enter the system to duplicate the process again for its member(s). This process is called Revolving Matrix. We both know this is incorrect as just because one member cycles does not mean their whole downline does.
This 'Revolving Matrix' is nothing but a smokescreen to confuse, even if a member cycles and only takes half the money there is still more money coming out than that member has put in which will eventually lead to a situation of stagnation followed by total collapse.
Finding an infinite amount of people for a network business is a pyramid and is also illegal. Please do not confuse this highly respected company as such a thing. Clubfreedom has been operational for less than one year and has already made its members thousands upon thosands of dollars.I take it what you mean is that CF has made a few of its members thousands of dollars based on the gullability of others who also believe they will cycle.

Club freedom is nothing more than a Money Moving Club totally dependant on new members and the purchase of additional positions by current members.

[incorp]

First of all Webwatch. I don't know if you even understand the concept of network marketing. ALL of it is downline building. That is the purpose, to build a downline involving a product or service. That is how network marketing works. There have been many scams and illegal pyrmaids in the past that put the legitimate companies of today in a poor light because they seem similar but are anything but.

Then you say "This 'Revolving Matrix' is nothing but a smokescreen to confuse, even if a member cycles and only takes half the money there is still more money coming out than that member has put in which will eventually lead to a situation of stagnation followed by total collapse".There are two levels when you start with this company. A feeder and a main board. The feeder builds your initial investment to one thousand dollars when entering the main board. So you can see that there is more money going in than coming out. Again, you would know this if you actually studied the business model rather than criticize and ask questions later.

Also this statement, "I take it what you mean is that CF has made a few of its members thousands of dollars based on the gullability of others who also believe they will cycle" is rediculous. I personally know many people who are successful with Clubfreedom and they are not make believe.

I am wondering if you actually even went to the website, if you did, you spent little time.

I respect peoples opinions on all relevant issues only if they are educated in their point of view. That would exclude you my friend. Clubfreedom is NOT a pyramid in the way you describe it. If it was, I would agree that it would never work.

P.S. You make a statement like this "If people were joining for the purpose of actually starting a real business that would be one thing, but it is clear that this business is about building a downline" and at the bottom of your post you say "'Anyone who thinks this is a Pyramid Scheme is so not welcome in my downline'.-Me. Circa 2006" .

I'm just waiting for things to start making sense!

[Webwatch]

Hello Wes,
First of all Webwatch. I don't know if you even understand the concept of network marketing. ALL of it is downline building. That is the purpose, to build a downline involving a product or service. That is how network marketing works. There have been many scams and illegal pyrmaids in the past that put the legitimate companies of today in a poor light because they seem similar but are anything but. I like to think I have a fair grasp of Network Marketing and yes downline building is part of it but the product or service on offer should have a 'Retail Sales' capability to non members without the requirement to join someones downline.
CF has no retail sales the only thing on offer is a $150 wholesale access certificate and $50 membership. Can CF members sell this certificate to friends and earn commision from these sales, of course not all they have is a downline building exercise with the promise of $6000 if they manage to recruit enough people to cycle.

There are two levels when you start with this company. A feeder and a main board. The feeder builds your initial investment to one thousand dollars when entering the main board. So you can see that there is more money going in than coming out. Again, you would know this if you actually studied the business model rather than criticize and ask questions later.The building of your investment is done by recruiting others-you get nothing when entering the main board only if you cycle that main board which many will not as it takes well over 50 members for one to cycle. The money coming into CF will never be enough for each member to cycle only a lucky few will ever acheive this potential reward.

Also this statement, "I take it what you mean is that CF has made a few of its members thousands of dollars based on the gullability of others who also believe they will cycle" is rediculous. I personally know many people who are successful with Clubfreedom and they are not make believe.

I am wondering if you actually even went to the website, if you did, you spent little time.You call my statemnt ridiculous yet say almost exactly the same thing, of course there will be a few who cycle-there will be even more who have told their downline they have cycled when really then haven't.

I respect peoples opinions on all relevant issues only if they are educated in their point of view. That would exclude you my friend. Clubfreedom is NOT a pyramid in the way you describe it. If it was, I would agree that it would never work.I doub't you will respect anyone's opinion who disagrees with you, the difference between us is your greed has confused you as to what is really going on and you risk losing the respect of any downline you have built by being exposed. I do respect your opinion by the way if that helps.

P.S. You make a statement like this "If people were joining for the purpose of actually starting a real business that would be one thing, but it is clear that this business is about building a downline" and at the bottom of your post you say "'Anyone who thinks this is a Pyramid Scheme is so not welcome in my downline'.-Me. Circa 2006" . This explains a lot, firstly you are reffering to 2 seperate posters in this thread but you seem to have confused them both for mine. If you can't grasp how a forum works then the chances of convincing anyone here that you are capable of understanding the workings of a Pyramid Scheme is going to be difficult.
The statement at the bottom of my posts is a weak attempt at sarcasum some will get it and some won't.

I'm just waiting for things to start making sense!I'll help if I can.
Posts on a forum like this will have a screen name on the left hand side if both screen names are the same then in most cases that is the same persons comments, however if screen names are different it is highly likely there are 2 different people commenting.

[Webwatch]

It seems that Club Freedom is now being heavily promoted within the online deaf community forums, of course there are no physical or moral restrictions to where a Pyramid Peddler/Downline builder will go to recruit but please be wary of this scheme.

To date no CF/RT promoter has come to this thread and been able to argue as to why Club freedom isn't a Pyramid Scheme, in fact some have only helped confirm it as one.

So if you have been approached to participate could you please name and shame the groups that have attempted to recruit. One group I have found is a certain pickle team which even has a webpage all ready prepared for members to use to defend its Pyramid nature (makes you wonder why).

Pickle Team Pyramid Scheme arguement defence page:
http://www.clubfreedoms.com/twocents.htm
First of all, Clubfreedom is not a pyramid scheme because it has a definite product. A program is regarded as a pyramid when people just pay into a pool without a defined product. When you pay for your membership in Clubfreedom, $150 out of $200 represents a Wholesale Access Certificate. This certificate entitles the bearer to access 7 nights accommodation at up to 1500 resorts around the world for a wholesale fixed price in Australian Dollars.This is what you sell to others when you join them and this is a definite product. There can't be any talk of a pyramid scheme here. $50 of $200 is a membership fee and it allows you to enter Clubfreedom Lucrative Rewards System where, providing you make your two sales (join two others), you will receive $6000 and a $1000 Travel Voucher at your first cycle.

Second of all, in a pyramid scheme, you know the market will be saturated at some point. If you subscribe every person in the world to any business based on the pyramid (whether it's a scam or not), you will eventually run out of people to sponsor in. The new people make the rewards possible and when they're gone the pyramid collapses. Clubfreedom, however, is a revolving system. You can have 1 million people (which is nothing!) in the world keeping the money flowing in Clubfreedom if they purchase more positions with a portion of their main board reward (and many of them)

Thirdly, because it is a revolving plan, there can't be any charge of Clubfreedom being a pyramid scheme. In pyramids, guys at the top stay at the top. In Clubfreedom, no one stays at the top once they get there. As soon as you reach the top position and receive your rewards, the computer pushes you down so that others can enjoy the top position too! This is another feature of Clubfreedom plan distinguishing it from pyramid schemes out there.

Lastly, and simply, Clubfreedom pays. People receive their money every day and, despite your calling it a scam or not, that is the fact. And where people are getting paid, there can't be any mentioning of a scam. All you suspicious heads out, quit your whining and join us. Prove us wrong and yourself right. I can assure you that you will lose. But at that point you will not care as you just got yourself $6000 and vacation!


So for all those who are not ready and willing, there is nothing to be ready for, no need to wait, this is the best time to get in because the company is fresh and developing in many countries. As we speak, translations into different languages are being made, and talks are taking place at the Clubfreedom management level about new Clubfreedom offices about to open soon in various countries. The company is in the developing phase and this is the best time to get involved. As soon as you join, you will see yourself on the Clubfreedom board online and you will be able to log in each day to see movements there as your position goes up and up. Everyone including the company managers are very excited, and I hope you can join us too. And remember, HAVE FUN!

The above quote isn't the entire page but theres enough stomache churning stuff to be going on with.

Seems they protest a little too much.

[NotHappyJan]

Hi everyone

I am yet another sad victim of clubfreedom......

I have invested thousands (too embarrassed to quote in public!) in this system that my girlfriend, now ex-girlfriend has peddled onto me. I'll admit, she was duped as well, and greed just took care of the rest!. I knew very little about scams/pyramids/matrixes/etc at the time and very naively signed up to what I was told was a legit holiday program that rewarded with a nice bonus. I did my bit and "recruited" 2 people- so easy, they told me. One of these is my own mother, who I will repay her "investment'. I'm pretty ashamed I got her involved, in fact, I feel disgusted that I mentioned this rot to anyone. The boards began slowing but other people on the boards were promising fast action so what did I do?, pour more money into it of course, to hopefully recoup my "investment"!. Sound like a pokie machine scenario?- you betcha!.

I am really angry, both at myself and these people who conned me. Ive personally met one of the Directors and he seemed ok- yeah right!.

You're dead right Webwatch- slowdown is definately happeneing- my boards have been dead for 7 weeks and counting. Apparently, plenty of boards are dying everyday.

I'd like to ask you guys for advice.
1) A long shot but what would be the best approach to asking these turkeys for some kind of refund or compensation?. A long shot, yes.
2) If that fails, I'm keen to lodge complaints to the ACCC, ASIC and Office of Fair Trading. Hopefully this site will be banned from Australia. Can the ACCC force these guys to refund money to duped people like myself?.
3) if all fails, what are my other options?- solicitors?, Federal Govt?. I know these people have registered in Hong kong but I know for a fact that the directors are both Aussies in Qld.

I'm not rich- just a battling tradesman keen for a better life (arent we all!), nor am I uni educated.

I'm happy to disclose my clubfreedom username and the amount Ive lost if someone wishes to chat privately. I ask to remain anon in public forums.

I only wish I bumped into you guys 3 months ago!. It was this site that finally convinced me I was in trouble!.

Thanks for reading

[NotHappyJan]

Ohh, I forgot to add earlier..

Does anyone know if I may be able to write off this loss under the Australian Taxation law?. I used my credit card- like many other suckers- and have all transactions on paper. Apparently, the US system allows a deduction as a result of "theft". Just wondering if Oz also has a similar ruling.

I'd rather ask you guys first before holding my head down in shame to my accountant/ATO!.

[Webwatch]

Hello Jan and welcome to Matrixwatch.

Thank you for sharing your story.
A good place to start filling complaints is with the ACCC:
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217/fromItemId/3634
http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/consumeradvice/

Also try contacting your Credit Card company and explaining the situation to see if anything can be done to reclaim the funds. They will probably ask you to contact CF to see if they will give you a refund first though.

As far as writing this off as a loss when filling your tax return your accountant is the best one to advise on this.

[beeswax]

Hello Jan............... at least you've had the guts to take the time and admit what has happened to you and others. Congrats, it will help many others you don't know.
It was Webwatch who convinced me to stay away from this when I started the thread over 6 months ago.
Great advice, take heed of it.
I know of three others in similar positions to you who didn't stay out like I did.

[Webwatch]

It was Webwatch who convinced me to stay away from this when I started the thread over 6 months ago.
Great advice, take heed of it.Hey don't blame me.
Seriously though hi Beeswax glad to see you back.
There will be many victims of this up to their eyebrows in CF & RT positions but with very little to show for it except time share vouchers.

Sometimes its really hard to stop throwing money at a failing scheme like ClubFreedom and just walk away.

[The scales]

Been a while since my last posting. Thought I would update...........

The people I have signed up so far have been pretty hard to motorvate & as such, my progress has been slow.

I have just one of my three tickets in the payment (2nd) board on the 2nd row with the other two tickets close to moving up with a single space to fill on their boards.

As posted previously, time is short but I am persistant & although the progress is slower than I hoped, its still progress............:yes:

Not so for my little mate, who is now up to 6-payments & his 1st + 2nd tickets are now ready to "cycle" for their first times. he got back from Manila & enjoyed so much "sucky sucky" he said it was getting hard to "perform" towards the end...........:nono:

Sad case, I know........

Anyway, he should make it to 9 payments by the end of APR-07 but the differences is.

He talks to multiple people per day about CF. I talk to multiple people per fortnight about CF. Little wonder I am taking a lot longer.

Still, am telling people its a scheme / scam to be brutally honest & its making people money regardless of what their personal thoughts are. This way, it sounds fair when I sign people up saying "Only go in for what you can afford to lose"

REgards

[Jammielagos]

If the Access Certificates can be used immediately after purchase and can give the said 40% discount on RCI resorts for 7 nights then I think we shouldn't argue. Those who come in here arguing are those who see clubfreedom as an investment.

How dare you expect 3000% returns in 6 months? Here in Nigeria, people have earned in 4 weeks, 6 weeks and some people even earn weekly because Nigerians are joining in their thousands and boards are moving and breaking as a result.

In my team alone there were surprises this week with 2 guys moving from Level 1 on the feeder to Planner on the mainboard in just 8 days and another guy moved from level 1 to Reservation in 6 days respectively. Here in Nigeria the system will be sustainable for a long period, apparently, 99% of people i've met both online and offline have never heard about clubfreedom and are willing to buy the vouchers (not invest). I always point out to people, do not try to buy multiple slots if you can't get people under you and secondly, do not see it as an investment.

Hope this help.

[Webwatch]

Hi Jammie and welcome to Matrixwatch.
If the Access Certificates can be used immediately after purchase and can give the said 40% discount on RCI resorts for 7 nights then I think we shouldn't argue. Those who come in here arguing are those who see clubfreedom as an investment.The RCI official connection with clubfreedom was debunked many months ago, a huge majority of participants in clubfreedom will be doing so in order to cycle and receive $6000 which makes clubfreedom an investment scam, plain and simple.
How dare you expect 3000% returns in 6 months? Here in Nigeria, people have earned in 4 weeks, 6 weeks and some people even earn weekly because Nigerians are joining in their thousands and boards are moving and breaking as a result.As a Pyramid Scheme, it indeed needs thousands to join up in order for boards to move, I have a feeling your average Nigerian doesn't have the dispoable income available to join this venture and recruitment is taking place via the usual e-mail campaign route. To even mention the word 'earn' means that those joining see CF as an investment scheme.
In my team alone there were surprises this week with 2 guys moving from Level 1 on the feeder to Planner on the mainboard in just 8 days and another guy moved from level 1 to Reservation in 6 days respectively. Here in Nigeria the system will be sustainable for a long period, apparently, 99% of people i've met both online and offline have never heard about clubfreedom and are willing to buy the vouchers (not invest). I always point out to people, do not try to buy multiple slots if you can't get people under you and secondly, do not see it as an investment.Just because you say this isn't an investment doesn't make it so.
How honest of you to tell people not to buy multiple times if they can't recruit, you could go one step further and be really honest and tell people not to join at all if they can't recruit as the only way to cycle (return on investment) is to recruit others, hence this is a typical Pyramid Scheme.

[Jammielagos]

Firstly,

Let me make it clear to you that whether you cycle out of clubfreedom or not, you can redeem your voucher and get your 40% off any RCI resort (i repeat, RCI). All you need is go to wlhholidayvouchers.com and enter your serial number and password (usually WLH), choose the particular RCI resort you intend to visit, (make your payment if you haven't cycled out yet, and if you have, CF automatically makes the VIP ELITE reservation for you) and i tell you, you'll get a Paper Mail from the RCI inviting you to that particular resort in that country.

That is the market of clubfreedom. Just as Tianshi, GNLD and others have a usable product, so does clubfreedom, are you against "drug sales" MLMs? Why not? I'm writing an e-book (very rich in content) and i'm gonna offer a matrix system kinda reward for anyone who refers two people to buy my book. They only pay for the book and download it immediately but there's a reward for whoever refers more people to buy from my site. I think that makes sense to you doesn't it? Even your webhost probably has an affiliate system that says bring someone to host here and we'll pay you $100! what's the fuss about this?

The second part is the reward system, that's what the GREEDY ones always see. Clubfreedom is not forcing people to join, they are only saying buy our 40% off discount vouchers for $150 and if you get people to buy our vouchers we will reward you. The message is clear and simple.

If you as a person need to go on a vacation and you want the best treatment you can buy their voucher and off you go but a reward awaits you if you come back again. The truth is you'll always need a voucher whenever you want to travel and you need to buy a new slot each and every time. Even though you can earn over and over, you can only travel ONCE with every username.

Also, let me make it clear that most Nigerians are registering, not from emails, but from their pockets. I must be frank with you, not many people have earned but quite a number have travelled with their vouchers directly, i'm talking about a 7-day 40% off travel to Egypt, Ireland, South Africa and Israel. Not bad for a vacation, leave or honeymoon is it?

Finally,

If you can't refer and you want to invest in clubfreedom then it makes no sense, just keep off, but if you just need to travel why not? Using your voucher won't make you forfeit the reward so use your voucher one time, you only lose $50 and for all the discount i bet you it's saving you nothing less than another $200. I would never join any program without an INSTANT product/service and clubfreedom has that. It took me a month and 3 days before making my mind to register with them. When a cousin forced me to join Goldlynks, i did and i prayed to God for a year that it should go down. It finally did, i couldn't market a pyramid scheme to my family cos it was a clear pyramid to me, the promise of Gold, i don't know, that's why i didn't join canadian diamond too, though a matrix system, i wanted something i could use instantly and coupons aren't bad when they are worth the cost.

If you need to invest, invest wisely, if you see clubfreedom as an investment, you are a sore loser. That is my advice for everyone who things there's gold to mine in clubfreedom. And to those saying they have slow boards, i'll advise you, look for a Nigerian board! 150 million people ain't some fairy tale!

I await your arsenal again my friend.

[Webwatch]

Thanks for your response Jammie:
Firstly,

Let me make it clear to you that whether you cycle out of clubfreedom or not, you can redeem your voucher and get your 40% off any RCI resort (i repeat, RCI). All you need is go to wlhholidayvouchers.com and enter your serial number and password (usually WLH), choose the particular RCI resort you intend to visit, (make your payment if you haven't cycled out yet, and if you have, CF automatically makes the VIP ELITE reservation for you) and i tell you, you'll get a Paper Mail from the RCI inviting you to that particular resort in that country. Interesting how CF can't use the RCI logo then as these Holidays are for resorts withing RCI's timehare system.
I have looked at the http://www.wlhholidayvouchers.com/redeem-voucher.htm page and it just seems to be a copy of http://www.holidayvouchers.com.au/. which even has the ability to check availabilty and other usefull information, a service that WLH doesn't seem to offer.

Now before I hear you cry 'So What' it might be a good time to show how you can get access to this system for free, (Yes Free) without paying $200 to Club Freedom.

Ok Step 1:
Visit: _http://www.rciglobal.com.au/viplounge/
Enter Password: madc

or ignore step 1 and go to:
_http://www.holidayvouchers.com.au/lookup/vip.htm
From there you can purchase your vouchers for:
VIP Traveller=AU$599
VIP Traveller Plus=AU$699
VIP Traveller Elite=AU$899

Which saves you joining clubfreedom and paying $200 ($50 membership fee) to get an access certificate code where you can buy your vouchers for the same price as stated above.

That is the market of clubfreedom. Just as Tianshi, GNLD and others have a usable product, so does clubfreedom, are you against "drug sales" MLMs? Why not? I'm writing an e-book (very rich in content) and i'm gonna offer a matrix system kinda reward for anyone who refers two people to buy my book. They only pay for the book and download it immediately but there's a reward for whoever refers more people to buy from my site. I think that makes sense to you doesn't it? Even your webhost probably has an affiliate system that says bring someone to host here and we'll pay you $100! what's the fuss about this?A bit risky this offering an e-book for re-sale as its open to abuse I mean whats to stop some unscrupulous scammer selling the e-book themeselves and cutting you out of the equation. Unless your e-book has any real value you also run the risk of being accused of running a Pyramid Scheme masquerading as an MLM.
Oh and my webhost doesn't have a $100 affiliate sytem either.

The second part is the reward system, that's what the GREEDY ones always see. Clubfreedom is not forcing people to join, they are only saying buy our 40% off discount vouchers for $150 and if you get people to buy our vouchers we will reward you. The message is clear and simple. The reward system is the only part as shown earlier the $150 access certificate could be considered worthless when the same thing can be obtained for free. Without the reward system the vouchers are unmarketable, well they are now.

If you as a person need to go on a vacation and you want the best treatment you can buy their voucher and off you go but a reward awaits you if you come back again. The truth is you'll always need a voucher whenever you want to travel and you need to buy a new slot each and every time. Even though you can earn over and over, you can only travel ONCE with every username.So you can only use the CF voucher once then, not looking good is it.

Also, let me make it clear that most Nigerians are registering, not from emails, but from their pockets. I must be frank with you, not many people have earned but quite a number have travelled with their vouchers directly, i'm talking about a 7-day 40% off travel to Egypt, Ireland, South Africa and Israel. Not bad for a vacation, leave or honeymoon is it?I appreciate your frankness but that doesn't make it true.

If you can't refer and you want to invest in clubfreedom then it makes no sense, just keep off, I couldn't agree more
but if you just need to travel why not? Using your voucher won't make you forfeit the reward so use your voucher one time, you only lose $50 and for all the discount i bet you it's saving you nothing less than another $200.Perhaps not

I would never join any program without an INSTANT product/service and clubfreedom has that. It took me a month and 3 days before making my mind to register with them. When a cousin forced me to join Goldlynks, i did and i prayed to God for a year that it should go down. It finally did, i couldn't market a pyramid scheme to my family cos it was a clear pyramid to me, the promise of Gold, i don't know, that's why i didn't join canadian diamond too, though a matrix system, i wanted something i could use instantly and coupons aren't bad when they are worth the cost.I'm sorry to hear about your loss but it was probably the fault of greedy men and please don't blame God for it, after all She seems to be getting a lot of hassle from mankind lately.

If you need to invest, invest wisely, if you see clubfreedom as an investment, you are a sore loser. A bit harsh but point taken.
That is my advice for everyone who things there's gold to mine in clubfreedom. And to those saying they have slow boards, i'll advise you, look for a Nigerian board! 150 million people ain't some fairy tale!
If I have saved 150million Nigerians the cost of paying for a worthless access certificate then all the better.

I await your arsenal again my friend.Its always nice to make a friend in this huge world we live in but I promise no arsenal just my opinion.

[grandespinale]

can you tell me any of the resorts managed by club freedom? also how do club freedom members in places like Africa get paid when they reach the traveller level?

[Webwatch]

Originally posted in wrong thread.
MAKE $6000 Less Than 3Month : Only If You Are A Serious Person


Hello There,
I want to introduce you to this programme club freedom, wereby from
home you will make it by introducing each person to the programme from
there ya post increases, cos do u you that a drop of water make an
ocean?. So i want you to sign up below link; then introduce more of
your friends and family and see how the programme works, with due time
u can make up to $6,000.This is not a scam or anything differ people
from the world they are also see-ing the benefit of this cool offer.
Get rich or die trying,better for you to be rich you know, so that you
can have some money you can give to your next generation of children.
Hope to hear your positive reply asap.

Arise!!! its time for all of us to dream big and be vision driven cos
there is no time to waste. God has brought this wonderful opportunithy
to us for such a time as this. take clubfreedom as a bizness and not
as a hobby, its the best network biz i have seen that will liberate
all of us from poverty. Work hard to make sure you get to traveller
cos that is our primary goal so that we can travel together as one big
family,remember you are unique, there is no two of you on the face of
the earth. you are smbody special. you were born to rule and reign in
life. you are not a speck in the dust.you a royalty and that is who u
are. make sure you cycle as many times as possible so that you can
help lift up other people cos that is your calling. show them
clubfreedom and let them join so that we can change the notion of the
World ? World mindset abt the internet.wish u success in
clubfreedom.
You can use any of the below link to signup

**URL's removed see forum rules**
Peace Out
Email : **e-mail removed to protect spammer from spam**

Make It From Home Not A Scam Its Real: Give A Trial[/b]
See posts above-CF is a Pyramid Scheme with nothing on offer.

Anyone care to differ.

[concerned]

Originally Posted by Clubfreedom
MAKE $6000 Less Than 3Month : Only If You Are A Serious Person


First of all, I don't think I can join this program, because I am not a serious person. I try to be funny most of the time, so I am already disqualified.

But furthermore, this is one of those examples where I might want to say that the victim gets what they deserve if they invest in this one. With that many misspelled words, and bad punctuation, I can't help but wonder why someone would trus them to invest their money. Real money managers need years of education, and training to be good. And to get the kinds of returns these scams claim, they have to be the best. So, my question is this:

If they need to be the best, and have impressive college degrees, then why do posts like this show that they haven't passed 6th grade english?

[theTraveller]

Originally posted in wrong thread.

See posts above-CF is a Pyramid Scheme with nothing on offer.

Anyone care to differ.

I would care to differ, but then we've already had this discussion plenty of times before :)

In addition to the travel vouchers, forex investment is about to be added to the list of features.. This seems to be of great interest to a lot of people. This will mean that in addition to being part of the matrix system, you can actually invest funds in the forex program. I believe that you don't need to join the matrix system in order to take advantage of this also. Which again shows that Clubfreedom isn't a pyramid scheme as so many of you are claiming it is. They give other opportunities besides the matrix. But I'm sure this will be argued also.

As to the comment about the english language, you may take into consideration that not everyone that posts here has english as their native language. This could be a reason why spelling and punctuation isn't great. This however doesn't mean that degrees are missing or the intellect is lower then yours. Making statements on someones intellect based on the writing would certainly show that your intellect isn't quite as high as you might believe it is.
In addition, i did notice you had a spelling mistake in your post also.

[Webwatch]

Hi The traveller and welcome back.
I saw the forex announcement a month or so ago, is there any timescale on its implementation. ?

I have spent the last month looking at FX trading and its one complicated area of risky investment but maybe thats just me. Its sure going to be interesting how it gets implemented and whether it can remove the Pyramid Scheme stigma associated with CF.

I didn't mention any spelling errors in clubfreedoms post as the whole spammed presentation is pretty awfull, surely CF has some pre-writen spam campaigns available for members to peddle in forums who's native language may not be their own. The usual your going to be rich approach but use my refferal link is a bit old now.

Anyway, wasn't your main argument that CF isn't a Pyramid Scheme because the Access Certificates had value which as I uncovered earlier in this thread they don't.

[theTraveller]

Hi The traveller and welcome back.
I saw the forex announcement a month or so ago, is there any timescale on its implementation. ?

I have spent the last month looking at FX trading and its one complicated area of risky investment but maybe thats just me. Its sure going to be interesting how it gets implemented and whether it can remove the Pyramid Scheme stigma associated with CF.

I didn't mention any spelling errors in clubfreedoms post as the whole spammed presentation is pretty awfull, surely CF has some pre-writen spam campaigns available for members to peddle in forums who's native language may not be their own. The usual your going to be rich approach but use my refferal link is a bit old now.

Anyway, wasn't your main argument that CF isn't a Pyramid Scheme because the Access Certificates had value which as I uncovered earlier in this thread they don't.

I wasn't referring to you about the spelling mistakes :)

The forex stuff should be up and running next month. It is a very interesting market and yes it can be risky, but the people employed to do the trading are very well established people with very very good returns.

Where did you uncover that they don't hold any value? that surprises me since I've used my vouchers and they certainly hold value. My holidays have been very nice and I've had some great times away which I wouldn't have had other wise.

I think the "You'll be rich" statements are made by a lot of people selling Clubfreedom that way. Clubfreedom themselves always make a point that this is a business and that it requires work to make it successful. That is how I promote it. I don't like attracting people with the get rich quick mentality. This doesn't help me or the business. People need to realise that this is no different to any other business and requires work.

I don't know if Clubfreedom will ever loose its Pyramid scheme stigma, but I think this forex stuff will certainly give it more credibility with investors.

[julius]

i join the scheme 2wks go, i am heading a board now including one of my downline. this is a scheme that involves hardwork and marketting skills. i know of three people that have cycled out. i believe that there is no investment without any element of risk. Most online transaction is basically reposisted on trust. the money i invested equals the money i am ready to loose. i think that should be the philosophy of every investor irrespective of the yield or profit of the investment

[Webwatch]

Where did you uncover that they don't hold any value? that surprises me since I've used my vouchers and they certainly hold value. My holidays have been very nice and I've had some great times away which I wouldn't have had other wise.Sorry I meant the access certificate to enable you to by the vouchers when you can skip this process and buy the vouchers directly without paying $150 for the access certificate.

Please keep us updated on the Forex system, it could be very interesting.

the money i invested equals the money i am ready to loose. i think that should be the philosophy of every investor irrespective of the yield or profit of the investmentHi Julius and welcome to Matrixwatch, your philosophy is similar to that of a gambler although many would argue that an investment is in itself a gamble with varying degrees of risk.
Joining a Pyramid Scheme at this late stage is similar to putting your money in a fruit machine just after someone has won the jackpot and walked away.

Your Investment however is linked to your ability to recruit others and those around you to do the same, without recruitment there is no return.
The risk you are taking is that the market is oversaturated and you have very little chance if any to cycle.
But best of luck anyway.

[julius]

what i understand by a pyramid scheme is that one that is at the top stays there permanently, but in club freedom when u get to the top, you cycled out and part of your gains will be reinvested.

Is there a law against this kind of scheme since they have a product and down line like MLM? How does club freedom falls into the category of a ponzi scam? can u shed light on this webwatch?

[Webwatch]

Hi Julius without going into massive detail, one of the key differences between an MLM and a Pyramid Sheme is the resale of the product/products involved. A pyramid scheme will always have more emphasis on the recruitment aspect than an MLM would.
Pyramid schemes and MLM's both suffer the same problem of market saturation and without a viable product to resell there is nothing to stop CF stagnating therefore leaving 90%+ unable to cycle.
Whether a percentage of the cycle funds are reinvested or not there will always be a requirement for more money to come out than goes in for everyone to cycle.
This can be demonstrated by working out the amount of members it takes in CF for one members to cycle. (about 50+)
There is always a benefit in getting in early but the way CF works this benefit can be offset by heavy recruiters peddling the scheme more succesfully.

However no matter how good you are at recruiting there will always be someone above you who got in earlier you are assisting.

As this Wholesale Access Certificate (WAC) which costs $150 cannot be resold by members directly for commision, CF by any stretch of the imagination cannot in my opinion be considered as a legal MLM. Thats without taking into consideration that the Voucher access system can be obtained for free.

The introduction (or potential introduction) of Forex trading brings another minefield of potential loss for CF members but it will be interesting to see how a forex sytem is implemented, what leverage is available and what stop loss protection is in place.

Always remember that CF admin will always be at the top whatever happens.

[mercinary]

Julius:

You should spend some time reading the first few dozen posts in this thread. I did some mathematical analysis on Club Freedom showing that it is a pyramid scheme even though people cycle off. The mentality is very similar to the matrix schemes which were very hot a couple of years ago. The bottom line is that the model doesn't include any outside income sources. They pay investors with other investor's money. Under that model, the pyramid will become top-heavy and collapse under its own weight.

-Merc

[australian ta]

Hi as a travel agent working hard in Australia these type of scams really annoy me. They take advantage of unsuspecting people who want a lovely holiday, and frankly if it looks like ........, smells like .........., it usually is .........
Don't touch this pyramid scheme, go to a registered travel agent who is listed with The Australian Federation of Travel Agents and who is also a member of the Travel Compensation Fund. Book a real holiday and enjoy a real holiday!
Don't give your money to these people in HongKong or where ever they claim to be! Try getting in touch with them by phone, good luck! Look after your hard earned money & don't get sucked in!!!

[GoldRules]

Thanks for the info here. I live in a community in the US where these sorts of things catch on quick and it is moving here.

The first friend who called me got an email-full! I may have lost a friend over that.

For anyone else considering this, you really must compare this to gifting clubs, the programming is the same!

Heres some good links:

A researched comparison of 4 levels 'matrix board' to several top MLMs and to casino games.
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/resources/WheresTheHarm.pdf

Gifting Scheme Mathematical Progression
You must see how the match just is not supportable!
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/pyramids/progression.html

Pyramid Scheme Alert
http://www.pyramidschemealert.org

False Profits Book Site:
http://www.falseprofits.com

Oh and RE the new forex program they are organizing.. I think they are doing that to shift people from the failing pyramid. Forex is unregulated investing and just as frought with fraud as pyramid schemes. I know, I worked for one that was grossly mismanaged.

An experienced trader and broker whom I know expects that the industry will be regulated within 2 years, then hopefully all these funky forex programs will disappear or get professional. Interestingly, he says most group forex program collapse within 2 years. I am not sure why, I think it is because of inexperienced traders who don't know how to managed a large account. Then, of course, there is greed...

Nice Forum!

[GoldRules]

Hi as a travel agent working hard in Australia these type of scams really annoy me. They take advantage of unsuspecting people who want a lovely holiday, and frankly if it looks like ........, smells like .........., it usually is .........
Don't touch this pyramid scheme, go to a registered travel agent who is listed with The Australian Federation of Travel Agents and who is also a member of the Travel Compensation Fund. Book a real holiday and enjoy a real holiday!
Don't give your money to these people in HongKong or where ever they claim to be! Try getting in touch with them by phone, good luck! Look after your hard earned money & don't get sucked in!!!

Ta!

Hey why not report Club Freedom to the Queensland Fraud Squad? I was told the owner lives in Brisbane. The Hong Kong thing would just be a paper company.

They might also be interested to hear about the investment fund, that is surely unregistered.

[Jamie]

It has come to my attention that Clubfreedom operates in the Dominican Republic which is a country known to have what would normally be illegal companies in other countries and like the Cayman Islands is a ground to launder money. Clubfreedom is a child company of ecashwallet, they are basically the same company all operating in the Dominican Republic and as the conditions of ecashwallet (that change regularly) state all transactions with them fall under Dominican law. I doubt the government of this country would care too much of such operations since they collect taxes from said companies and may pass a blind eye since economic success in countries of the region have little chance of success otherwise from lack of natural resources.

Apparently Clubfreedom does not make a profit until a person cycles the second time around and cashes in travel vouchers for cash at which Clubfreedom then apparently takes a cut from that cashing in of said travel vouchers. We all know how I pointed out the math flaws in the feeder boards. From the US$165, US$15 is apparently taken out to pay for the creation of an account with ecashwallet even though they are the same company, and it is totally free to create an account with them online. The rest of the money, US$150 goes into supplying money to the top of the feeder board where 8 at the bottom of that board equates to US$1200 even though the person at the top of the pyramid is said to only take US$1000, which creates a mystery $200 that performs a vanishing act that enters Clubfreedoms ecashwallet (excuse the pun).

However, perhaps in light of this math Clubfreeloaders changed their tune. Now, even with the increase in the fee apparently the amount of money used from that fee to fund the feeder board is not US$150 which produces the said mystery surplus, but is now US$50 and 8x50=US$400 which is US$600 short of the US$1000.

This is even more confusing but its a scam after all.

Thank you,
Jamie

[NotHappyJan]

Hello everyone

You might remember me- I was the clubfreedom sucker who lost thousands a few months ago and spilt the beans in this thread.

I can finally and thankfully report that after plain hard work, scrimping/saving and a little help from family/friends- my finances are now back to their pre-clubfreedom state!. I enjoyed a bottle of red to savour the moment!.

I cant thank you guys enough for helping me realise the futility of CF. I was about to pour more cash into it until I stumbled on Matrixwatch.

With more honest hard work and determination, I'll soon forget about this whole mess.

To everyone contemplating joining- DON'T DO IT!, I lost nearly 3 months wages!

[Webwatch]

:applause: Thanks for the update NHJ and I'm glad things are back on track.

Unfortunately a lot won't be as fortunate but great to hear your back on the wagon.
Enjoy your wine I may have a glass myself tonight in your honour.

WW