club freedom

[cc123]

hi, i am doing more research into club freedom. i just joined up about one week ago and have also signed some friends up. i want to ensure im not luring my friends into something bad. i saw a thread that was posted last week and wanted to query some of the information that you posted.

i have met with the owners of this company. according to australian laws it does comply, though its registered in hong kong so it doesnt really matter anyway.

it has only been around for three weeks and is based on the same system as canadian diamond traders. does anyone know much about that?


i just want to refer to they you broke down the system. you say that to get to the top of the feeder board you need to personally introduce 15 people. i have only signed up three and i am on the top.

also you said that at each stage you need to signup another two people. the system that was explained to me doesnt seem to correspond with that .

also, i just have a query about the dollar figures you stated,

i was told that 8 people join for 150 each, 25 is taken for admin and 8 x 125 totals 1000 and that goes to the guy at the top of the feeder. he takes that 1000 and can now enter the main board, 8 people join the main board each with 1000. that totals 8000 and that goes to the guy at the top. he gets 3500 cash and 3500 travel (the company acknowledge that they buy the travel cheaper than this and make money here) then the 1000 remaining goes to the guy re entering the main board so the system can start all over again.

the travel is through rci global travel network who are a seperate company and will do holidays anywhere in the world.

does this add up to you? and if so - is there anything wrong with this?

id love to hear your thoughts and insight. tks very much.

[mercinary]

cc123:

Thanks for the help. My analysis does appear to be a bit off. One thing you are failing to point out is how the "guy at the top" got to the guy at the top. That is to say, if I join today, how many people have to sign up after me to get to the top of the feeder board, then to the top of the main board. That is what is key in all of this.

Note that although my analysis was off, the results are the same. This is merely a straight-line-matrix with a couple of twists. The scheme is still highly illegal and the math will still prove that exponential sign-ups are required to sustain the matrix (mathematically impossible).

After I get some further input from you I will re-anlayze the scheme and figure out the exact numbers...

-Merc

[cc123]

thanks for your quick reply!

well im just a member myself so im just breaking it down myself and trying to work it out with the info i have. but this is the data i have from meeting with the owners and breaking it all down myself:

when the system first started (about 6 weeks ago) there were obviously only 15 positions. the owners bought all 15 positions for 150. the owners then generated two people for each position (another 30 people) those 30 each paid their 150 and then generated their two and so on.

my calculations figure the following:

a feeder board has to split four times before you are at the top of the board
( but not always. if someone above you does not have two people signed up then they can not go above the third level of the feeder board. so one of my positions moved from level 2 straight to level 4 and is now at the top of the feeder board. my people under me have gotten some sales and now seven more people need to join on that board and it will split and i will be in a bottom position on the main board.)

so eight people join at the bottom and the board splits.
those eight are now on level 2 on two seperate boards
anyone with no or one sale on that board gets the required two sales each (will total 8)
the board splits and the original eight are now on level three on four seperate boards.
the next lot of eight people each get 2 people
the board splits again
the original eight are now all on the top on eight seperate boards
then all people on each of the eights board who dont have their sales, generate their two sales and the board splits again
the original eight are now at the bottom level of the main board

this pattern repeats again for each person on the main board with the board splitting four times to get someone to the top

so as far as i can work out - and im not a math genius - there are four splits which generates 8 boards which is 8x 8 = 64 as you said

so it takes 64 people to get 8 people onto a main board. 16 people need to join a main board to generate one cycle. so it would take 128 people joining a feeder to get two people to cycle from the top.

128 people each pay 150
25 is taken out for admin fee
128 x 125 = 16,000
16,000 divided by two is $8000 each
$8000 each is = $3500 travel $3500 cash and $1000 to re enter and continue

now this is where i think i get confused...

for the next lot of people to cycle the main board another 8 people need to join a main board, which means that another 8 people have to graduate from a feeder which means 64 people need to join a feeder....hmmm.now im confused.

so my other question is why is this illegal? when spend $150 you get a travel voucher. so you're not just generating cash. so worse cash scenario you get a travel voucher.

im pretty new to this and just trying to sit on the fence and work it out - so i appreciate a forum like this where i know you arent trying to sell me something. the owners are very nice and easy to deal with, but at the end of the day they would be; its their program!

[mercinary]

So you're saying that it takes 128 people to join BEHIND you in order for you to cycle off?

This is illegal because the $150 voucher is likely not worth $150. You can routinely find $150 travel vouchers for free (check eBay). They are given out by resorts as incentives to visit.

-Merc

[cc123]

well, i think it takes 128 people to get 8 people to cycle. it can be less depending on where you join the board.

yeah i look into that on the travel vouchers. they are through a reputable travel agency and are against a package and you can use them at a number of resorts (over 300) around the world. so i figured that seems legit...?

is that the only part that would be illegal?

what would be the downside of me selling people into this if they are happy to purchase a voucher and know what it is used for and they fully understand the system?

is this illegal in hong kong? because thats where this is?

[mercinary]

What makes the scheme illegal is that very few of the people who join the scheme will ever get the ultimate "prize".

I'm not familiar with the Hong Kong legal system, but Ponzi/Pyramid schemes have been around forever and are considered illegal in most places.

-Merc

[mercinary]

Further analysis, based on above info from cc123:

From the day you sign-up, it would appear that it takes 128 people to sign up behind you before you (and the other 7 people) cycle. I'm going to ignore all the splitting and whatnot, as we have a simplified number (128) to go by. Take that into account, you get something that looks like this:

8 People sign up. Call them P1 - P8.
P9 - P136 sign up (128 more).
P1 - P8 cycle.
P137 - P264 sign up (128 more)
P9 - P16 cycle.
P265 - P392 sign up (128 more)
P17 - P24 cycle.
etc etc etc....

Note that a total of 392 people have signed up and only 24 people have cycled. You can graph this out (see attachment). In this graph, I have shown how many sign-ups are required for the first 137 people to cycle (17416).

The distribution is actually a linear curve, but it's all the same. The sign-up rate cannot sustain the cycles!!

-Merc

[mercinary]

Thoughts cc123?

Is my analysis closer to reality now?

-Merc

[cc123]

yeah i see what you mean

this is beyong my math skill - im gonna send it to the owners and see what they say!

[mercinary]

They will tell you all kinds of things. Think about it...they make a $25 profit on every single person who signs up. Imagine that only the first eight people cycle (137 total sign-ups at $25 = $3425).

Also keep in mind that you mentioned that in regards to the top 15 positions..."the owners bought all 15 positions". Do you really think they bought those positions, or do you think they just stuck their names in there? Given the math, those 15 positions may be the only ones that EVER cycle!!!!

-Merc

[cc123]

well i figure that they must have put the money in for the next lot of people to have gotten paid.

there are already over 1000 feeder boards and over 60 people have already been paid. i personally know 7 people (close friends and my boyfriend) who have been paid and booked holidays. so i know that more than just the original 15 will cycle.

my biggest concern is telling friends about this and them not getting rewarded. i am pretty sure that i will cycle - at least once. but somewhere, its gonna break down and i dont want that to be my friends.

but then im confused, because canadian diamond traders have been doing this identical "revolving matrix" for 3 years and people are still cycling. some three times per week. in fact i know someone that joined 5 months ago (well after it started three years ago) and he is now cycling three times per week and receiving the diamonds and the cash.

i just cut and paste some of your info and your graph and sent it to the owners from myself. ill let you know what they say

[mercinary]

but then im confused, because canadian diamond traders have been doing this identical "revolving matrix" for 3 years and people are still cycling. some three times per week. in fact i know someone that joined 5 months ago (well after it started three years ago) and he is now cycling three times per week and receiving the diamonds and the cash.

I know nothing about canadian diamond, but I can tell you this...if there was a system that you could join where you get paid in cash and diamonds three times a week, and everyone got paid that.....why wouldn't the financial world be all over it? Why wouldn't governments promote and invest in the scheme to reduce and eventually eliminate national debt?

The money has to come from somewhere...it isn't magic. :) My guess is that it comes from the investors...

-Merc

[beeswax]

I've done some homework of my own and am still not really comfortable introducing this to freinds etc, for much the same reasons as expressed by another recently. I emailed teamclubfreedom.




Hi Jim,

i'll answer you questions in turn
1. TeamClubfreedom is doing what any arm of a MLM company would do. We help our downline find extra people to qualify our members. Why? Well it helps our downline and there for also helps us. We could just sign extra people up under ourselves and move that way, but we prefer to help others achieve success also. We only do this for people signing up under someone who is already in our downline. Not just anyone.

2. Yes we are made up of people who would like to make some extra cash and or go traveling.

3. I'm not sure what info you are referring to, but most of the posts on that forum come from people who are part of our team. Www.teamclubfreedom.com has most of that info on it.

4. No you won't get anything rammed down your throat. RCI is just teamed up with CFT. you can book whatever type of holiday you want. Flights hotels trains cruises what ever.

5. I'm not sure what kind of guarantee you are looking for. Your first voucher you have to redeem. Any additional vouchers you can cash in. As I mentioned, I know the MD of the company and see no reason why they wouldn't honor that. There will be some people posting on the forum shortly who already have been paid if that will help.

I'm not sure if all this makes it any easier for you, but there you go.

You know where to find me if you have more questions

cheers
Roel

-----Original Message-----

From: "Jim Beasley" <jim@point05.com.au>
Subj: RE: Clubfreedom
Date: Sun 17 Sep 2006 11:11 am
Size: 4K
To: "'Roel Wijmans'" <travel@teamclubfreedom.com>
Roel, I really appreciate the time and effort in your response.

This is so confusing!

And the business-minded people I would like to introduce would tear me to shreds with the limited and fragmented information package I could ONLY supply at the moment!

(1) Why is TeamClubFreedom doing what Club Freedom should be doing?
(2) Is TeamClubFreedom made up of people like me who saw an opportunity and joined?
(3) Can you explain why the information on this blog http://www.moneymakergroup.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97286.html
is not on your site, or on www.clubfreedom.biz ?
(4) I also have real concerns about the claims that are made about "RCI Global Vacation Network". This company provides 'timeshare exchange vacation services'. Does this mean that the end-user of the travel voucher has timeshare rammed down the throat?...... and that there would be catches galore.....?
(5) I would LOVE to see a guarantee that a $3500 travel voucher can be redeemed for $2,500 cash!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your efforts again,

Jim Beasley

-----Original Message-----
From: Roel Wijmans [mailto:travel@teamclubfreedom.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:39 AM
To: jim@point05.com.au
Subject: Re: Clubfreedom

Hi Jim,

Firstly I'd like you to understand that TeamClubfreedom is in no way related to Clubfreedom at all.. We are simply a team of people involved with Clubfreedom and doing our bid to be successful in this company.

I appreciate your concern and believe me there are lots of people who share your concern.. But all I can say to those people who think its not possible, have a look at Canadian Diamond Traders who have been operating now for about 4 years and are still being successful.

I believe this is certainly not a long term program and it will at some point collapse. But I think that even if I cycle once it will have been worth it. Where can you get a $7000 return for an initial investment of $150. Now that is not to say that I think it won't let me cycle a few times. Due to the fact that it is such a young company and that since its official launch on Sept 1st they've had at least 4000 + people sign up, I think its a great opportunity to be involved with them.

I'll address the bottom line for a minute here


> $9600 PLUS the original $10,800 the house made from you all on the
> feeder board, gives us a grand total of $20,400 for all 8 people to
> completely cycle out of the program. A grand total of 136 new people
> had to be brought into the matrix in order to cycle just eight people.
> And what do each of these eight people get? A travel certificate for
> $3500...which smells VERY fishy. 8 x $3500 = $28000, which is more
> than the matrix brought in. Travel vouchers for this much are often
> GIVEN away by companies who are selling timeshares. I'm guessing that
> this company is paying VERY LITTLE (IF ANYTHING) for these $3500
> vouchers.

Firstly the travel voucher is certainly worth the $3500 which is transferable to any recommended retail price on any travel with a world wide travel agency. So there is nothing fishy about that. Will they have gotten a discount? Most likely, but I can't see any problem with Clubfreedom wanting to make a profit on that part of the business.

Ok so lets work top down for a minute here. For any person to cycle out and collect the $3500 cash and $3500 travel, the bottom row of the matrix will need to be filled. Meaning that 8 people who came from the feeder board would have brought in $1000 each. which adds up to 8X1000 = $8000. Not taking the discounted travel in consideration as i'm sure you agree with me they are entitled to make their profit on the discounts they get. So to collect $7000 in rewards and $1000 to be signed in at the bottom of the next matrix means that "the House" actually only makes the profit on the discounted Travel does it not?

So lets now go down a level and see that the feeder board works exactly the same. 8 people pay $150 to enter the system. 8X150 = $1200. In order for the top person on a feeder board to go to the main board where he'll need $1000 in order to make the system work as described above, he'll need $1000. This means that "the House" makes a profit of $200 per person. Not unrealistic considering the admin costs that they'll incur.

So where now are all those profits your friend is talking about?

I certainly agree that at some point the system will overload with people, but until that happens lots of people that are involved are benefitting from this system.
As with any other type of investment, even MLM systems, its always a gamble. How many people do you know that have invested a hell of a lot more into things like Amway or other MLM only to fail and loose the lot. I certainly know lots of them. So I've decided to take a risk with this system and its working much better for me then any MLM system ever has.

So there is my two cents worth :-)

There are currently quite a lot of MLM companies very excited about this system and are joining up their downlines and cycling through at an astonishing rate.

Anyway, if you have any more questions feel free to email me.

Cheers

Roel

>
> What's the bottom line? if you join, you alone need to recruit 16
> people to join behind you. On top of that, the other people on the
> boards need to fulfill their obligation too!




On 17/09/2006, at 8:19 AM, jim@point05.com.au wrote:

>
> Saturday, September 16, 2006, 3:19 pm [EST]
>
> From: Jim Beasley (jim@point05.com.au)
>
> Referal: Melbourne Club Freedom promoter
>
> Info: More information
>
> Message: Hi, Appreciate the opportunity to ask tese basic questions. I
> had a very successful network marketing friend of mine have a look at
> your Compensation Plan, and am disturbed by this part of his finding.
> (Please understand that neither of us knew about the changes that have
> just been notified)
>
> "BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY are the Maths, which can’t lie.
>
>
>
>
>
> Quote:
>
> Task One - Register and Pay US$150.00 for your travel voucher
>
> Task Two - Cycle through Feeder board to enter Main Board
>
> Task Three - Enter Main Travel Board with US$1000.00
>
> Task Four - Exit Travel Board with: US$8,000
>
> US$3,500 deposited into your Private Virtual ecashwallet Account
>
> US$3,500 Travel Certificate
>
> US$1000 to re-enter Main Travel Board
>
> Task Five - Re-Enter Main Travel Board with US$1000
>
>
>
> Here is an explanation of how you cycle:
>
> Quote:
>
> First Position: Reservation
> You have Reserved your Vacation. All new entrants into the Travel
> Program begin at the Reservation Level. Your mission is to market
> Clubfreedom Travel to as many of your friends, family, and colleagues
> with this genuine travel opportunity as you can. This is to facilitate
> the expansion of your marketing team. When the eight reservation
> positions are filled on the board the team expands and the board
> splits and you advance to the Planner Position.
>
> Second Position: Planner
> Start Planning your Vacation. The achievements of your marketing team
> will determine the speed you advance. With the whole team working as a
> cooperative unit, you will rapidly advance to the Standby level.
> Through the marketing efforts of all travel Consultants on the Travel
> board, expansion takes place once more, and you advance again.
>
> Third Position: Standby
> You are now on Standby waiting with anticipation, only one more
> advance on your travel board to become a Global Traveller. As you
> continue marketing the Clubfreedom Travel Program, with the co-
> operation of your marketing team you will now advance to Traveller
> Position.
>
> Fourth Position: Traveller
> Bon Voyage! You have been successful at marketing our Travel Program
> and you have reached your Goal. Congratulations! You are now a
> Traveller. Your goal is to continue to motivate the people on your
> team to market the Clubfreedom Travel Program so they arrive at this
> destination also. When your team completes its expansion and the eight
> Reservation positions are filled on your Travel board. The board will
> split once more, Congratulations! You are away at a time of your
> choosing on your dream vacation of a life time!
>
>
>
> BUT GET THIS! There is a feeder board that you have to traverse 8
> levels of before you even get to the main board!
>
> They claim that the "revolving matrix" ensures everyone wins:
>
> Quote:
>
> Revolving system
> There are 4 levels, everyone has equal opportunity to achieve success.
> No one remains at the top, as the people at the top cycle, they
> re-enter at the Reservation Level helping the other levels to move up
> the system. As the TOP people cycle out of a board, they re- enter the
> program to the closest position available on their original referrer's
> Travel Board. This ensures everyone's eventual success.
>
>
>
> But referring to an early quote (from when you make it to the top):
>
> Quote:
>
> Your goal is to continue to motivate the people on your team to market
> the Clubfreedom Travel Program so they arrive at this destination
> also.
>
>
>
> And that is the key! The thing is, it is a pyramid and it requires
> an exponential number of people to sign up in order for people to
> continue cycling! Mathematically impossible....even if ever single
> person on the earth signed up, a GIANT percentage would never make
> it to the top.
>
> Here is how the math really works...
>
> 1. You join (Pay $150) to enter step 1 of the feeder. House total =
> $150.
> 2. You get 2 people to join ($300)...you've done your part. House
> total = $450
> 3. Now you have to wait for the OTHER 7 people at the bottom of the
> feeder in step 1 to recruit 2 people EACH. Assuming that happens (7
> x 2 x $150 = $2100), House total = $2550.
> 4. All eight of you move to step 2. The board splits, so 4 of you
> stay on one board. You all need to then recruit 2 more people EACH!
> Assuming this happens (4 x 2 x $150 = $1200), House total = $3750.
> 5. All four of you move to step 3. The board splits, so 2 of you
> stay on one board. You two need to recruit 2 more people EACH!
> Assuming this happens, (2 x 2 x $150 = $600), House total = $4350.
> 6. Now you've made it to the top of the feeder. The board splits so
> just you stay on the board. Now you have to recruit 2 more people
> ($300). House total = $4650.00
>
> Now, for a second ignore all this splitting stuff! [The bottom line
> is that in order to pay-off all 8 original people....]
>
> Step 1 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Step 2 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Step 3 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Step 4 - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
>
> 8 x 2 x 4 = 64 PLUS the original 8 signups, for a total of 72
> signups in order for the original 8 people to even get to the main
> travel board!!!!
>
> 72 x $150 = $10,800 House Total
>
> And again, this only gets you onto the Traveller board. Now let's
> assume the original 8 people all make it to the "Reservation" part
> of the travel board first. In order for all of you to climb the
> Traveller board (to the top), you would have to come up with:
>
> Reservation Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Planner Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Standby Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
> Traveller Level - All 8 people need to recruit 2 people
>
> 8 x 2 x 4 = 64
>
> 64 * 150 = $9600
>
> $9600 PLUS the original $10,800 the house made from you all on the
> feeder board, gives us a grand total of $20,400 for all 8 people to
> completely cycle out of the program. A grand total of 136 new
> people had to be brought into the matrix in order to cycle just
> eight people. And what do each of these eight people get? A travel
> certificate for $3500...which smells VERY fishy. 8 x $3500 =
> $28000, which is more than the matrix brought in. Travel vouchers
> for this much are often GIVEN away by companies who are selling
> timeshares. I'm guessing that this company is paying VERY LITTLE
> (IF ANYTHING) for these $3500 vouchers.
>
> What's the bottom line? if you join, you alone need to recruit 16
> people to join behind you. On top of that, the other people on the
> boards need to fulfill their obligation too!
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Webwatch]

I believe this is certainly not a long term program and it will at some point collapse. But I think that even if I cycle once it will have been worth it. Where can you get a $7000 return for an initial investment of $150. Now that is not to say that I think it won't let me cycle a few times. Due to the fact that it is such a young company and that since its official launch on Sept 1st they've had at least 4000 + people sign up, I think its a great opportunity to be involved with them.

This says it all for me.
When it does collapse there will be 1000's of people left in the lurch with little or no return on their investment-sure there is a chance that if you work hard enough and drag enough people in you may cycle, but if you are pursuing family members and their friends and they are the ones left out of pocket the line of responsibilty will be traced back to you- Scam forum MMG is full of these programs most of which will eventually fail and the promoters will simply move onto the next with little or no fear of accountibility.

RCI is a timeshare company that has many affiliates that promote time shares either by selling them on the point system (the more points the more holidays) or the week system where you can buy whole weeks at certain resorts and through RCI use them elsewhere in the world, from what I've learned the cost of 1 week timeshare can be around £10000 depending on location and time of year that the week is eligable for plus maintenace costs on certain time share programs.

Many people enjoy timeshare and see benefits in it but there will be many who wish they had never bought it in the first place.

At least once every 3 months a timeshare voucher will appear in my post offering a free holiday-after attending a meeting first, but this is the world of extremeley hard sell and if your suceptible to a Pyramid Scheme like club freedom there is a high chance you will be suckered into buying a timeshare you don't need.

But of course the voucher is not the main reason for joining Clubfreedom its all about the money without which there would be no members.
This is not an MLM this is a Pyramid Scheme in my opinion.

[mercinary]

I believe this is certainly not a long term program and it will at some point collapse. But I think that even if I cycle once it will have been worth it. Where can you get a $7000 return for an initial investment of $150. Now that is not to say that I think it won't let me cycle a few times. Due to the fact that it is such a young company and that since its official launch on Sept 1st they've had at least 4000 + people sign up, I think its a great opportunity to be involved with them.


UNBELIEVABLE! Is this one of the club freedom staff admitting that the scheme will eventually fail? SAVE THIS EMAIL. In fact, forward me this email (mercinary@matrixwatch.org). This is evidence that will be addmissable in court some day when this thing collapses leaves thousands of people out of pocket!!!!

Edit: Note that the email I am quoting is not from club freedom staff...it is from TEAM club freedom, which is just a bunch of club freedom members together. I'm still very suprised that a member is admitting this.

-Merc

[mercinary]

I'm going to close this thread. There is a good conversation along the lines of this topic here:

http://www.matrixwatch.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4625&highlight=club+freedom

-Merc