EmatrixUSA Update

[MatrixWatch]

EmatrixUSA has finally released a statement on his site:

From: EmatrixUSA.com
Updated last: 9/7/03 11:30 PM CST

Site is currently shut down due to a recent lawsuit filed against us. Being funds are all on hold we have no option, but to wait things out and see what happens. Our plans are to start a refunding process. We have none of the details taken care of yet, but hope to have them together soon.



I congratulate Jake for updating his customers, and I am happy to see that he is beginning to cooperate.

[Kay P]

This is going to be extremely interesting to watch it unfold!!!

I know that the first group of people that were cycled and paid were for quite a large total dollar amount. In order for him to refund people all their money, he'll have to take a loss based on those first payouts.

A while back he used a good portion of funds he received from cylcing on TheSingleList to autocycle some people. I wonder how those autocycle dollar amounts will affect the refund ratio. Since autocylce funds were derived from an outside source not connected with an actual paying customer, that might reduce the refundable amount for that particular track(s).

What do you think Dog?

[MatrixWatch]

KP,
The Ematrix/CSI filing is not my lawsuit. However, seeing that I have seen this process unfold a few times over, I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. All I can give you here is my own personal opinion, and the real authority on the matter is the attorney for the class, Jeffrey Wilens, esq.

I'll break your post into two sections and answer each.


Originally posted by Kay P
I know that the first group of people that were cycled and paid were for quite a large total dollar amount. In order for him to refund people all their money, he'll have to take a loss based on those first payouts.

Once a lawsuit is filed, the customers must come out of the "matrix mentality". There are no more "cycles", and no more "payouts", etc. What we have here is the hope that the people will receive 100% refunds. This is not always the case, and before the suit was filed, Jake could have taken off with the customers' money and shut down his site. No one would get a penny, since he would likely close up immediately after the final disbursement date. I am not saying that Jake WOULD have done this. All I am saying is that he COULD, and other site owners have done it already. That is great news about a class action... You all have a shot at refunds. A shot that you didn't have before, save for a few exceptions.

I read through the lawsuit and it appears that the issue of Jake making previous payouts, and possibly receiving a portion of the frozen funds, has already been addressed. The lawsuit specifically asks that the courts order CSI to make restitution, no matter how much money they already gave to Jake Posch. More details about this issue will surface as things progress, and I hope that Jake keeps you all informed with what his attorney tells him.


Originally posted by Kay P
A while back he used a good portion of funds he received from cylcing on TheSingleList to autocycle some people. I wonder how those autocycle dollar amounts will affect the refund ratio. Since autocylce funds were derived from an outside source not connected with an actual paying customer, that might reduce the refundable amount for that particular track(s).


Now, you should already be able to know what the answer to this one is. Can you answer it, Kay? I'll let you know if you have it down, and are ready to start informing the others.

[Kay P]

Well if that is the case, those who cycled and already received their payouts make out like bandits to an extent. I wonder if they too will qualify to receive a refund of their money despite the payouts they received already. If they get the refund, the basically walk away with whatever their payout was plus the money they initially dumped in. Straight profit. If they don't get a refund, they still made out with a profit less the initial cost.

As far as the effect, if any, of the autocycle funds used to cycle some of the tracks, I honestly am not sure how that will play out. I'm not sure what the total dollar was that was applied as autocycle and not sure which of the tracks they were applied to. I was under the impression that they were applied to multiple tracks.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what will transpire in relation to the autocycles, because if CSI is ordered to make full restitution to the customers, then where does it leave the autocycle funds (since no customer actually paid those funds in)? Englighten me.

[MatrixWatch]

It really is a good question that you are asking. Now, as far as the people who already cycled are concerned, I believe that their contract with Ematrix is now over. They cannot collect on that money, and I do not believe that they can join the class... Only if they rejoined and their name is now on another list a list.

When EmatrixUSA paid them for their cycle, they did make out well, but not at the current customers' expense. The lawsuit demands full restitution no matter how much has already been paid out. Any extra money lying around will likely be used to supplement for the customers' money that went to pay out the cycled members. However, as I read through the lawsuit I see that the class will not have to deal with all of those questions.

It appears that the lawsuit aims to gather restitution from CSI primarily. Keep in mind that whatever pay companies EmatrixUSA was involved with may go after Jake for the money they lost due to his now allegedly illegal business. This would, of course, only transpire if the plaintiffs (class) wins the suit, and I personally believe they have very good reason to be optimistic for a victory in court.

It is a plus for the customers, because they will likely get their money back. Any extra funds left over will be accounted for, but it is important to know that, if your side wins, losses and gains will be reckoned as "ill-gotten". I do not know what happens to that money from that point, but I assume that it would go to help pay for restitution, and help to cover damages.

[Kay P]

Originally posted by watchdog
Now, as far as the people who already cycled are concerned, I believe that their contract with Ematrix is now over. They cannot collect on that money, and I do not believe that they can join the class...

- Just clarification... The above statement would apply to people that already cycled AND received payments and would not apply to those who just cycled but did not receive any pay outs, right? I know there are several people who show up as cycled but never got a dime. I believe payouts went to everyone who cycled March 31, 2003 or sooner. I'm not aware of any cyclers from April 1, 2003 forward that actually received payouts.


Originally posted by watchdog
It appears that the lawsuit aims to gather restitution from CSI primarily.

- Just FYI here.... If CSI is ordered by the court to make restitution, this will open up a huge can of worms for MisterMatrix which also used and continues to use CSI as their pay processor. The interesting thing about this particular site is that they (claimed) to have access to this CSI account based on their regular Photography Shop business. The pay processor account existed for them and their legit business before they opened up the matrix. When they began collecting funds through CSI for the matrix tracks, they "hid" the collection under their regular business (Luminsystems).

Originally posted by watchdog
Any extra funds left over will be accounted for, but it is important to know that, if your side wins, losses and gains will be reckoned as "ill-gotten".

- You lost me on this portion. Not sure what side is what and what you were referring to when you wrote "if your side wins". Long day at work I guess. Blahhhh!

[MatrixWatch]

Good follow up..


1.

- Just clarification... The above statement would apply to people that already cycled AND received payments and would not apply to those who just cycled but did not receive any pay outs, right?

I believe you are correct, however, I am not an authority on this one. You would need to ask attorney Wilens about it to be certain.


2.

If CSI is ordered by the court to make restitution, this will open up a huge can of worms for MisterMatrix which also used and continues to use CSI as their pay processor


I really don't know about that. However, look at the cover page of the lawsuit. Under 'Defendants' it should list "And Does As 1 Through 50...". This enables the lawsuit to be expaned against other parties, especially those similarly situated to EmatrixUSA who did business with CSI. This was the case with Ginix in the EzExpo case. The result is that over 30 sites were added to the Ginix suit, and several sites went down in one week.

You see, these lawsuits function like grenades. When they are thrown into the matrix world they break a window. Then, a small time interval goes by and BOOM! The whole place goes out. There may be several matrix sites, but there are only a few pay companies. It only take a few lawsuit to shut down the entire community. This is how we at Matrix Watch have been able to dismantle a huge internet scam in one summer, thanks to the cooperation of several people.


3.

Not sure what side is what and what you were referring to when you wrote "if your side wins".


Your side = EmatrixUSA customers entitled to refunds.
All I meant was that funds that the matrix site made will not be pocketed by anyone right away. Those ends of those funds would need to be decided by the courts I guess.

[Kay P]

Dog,

Thanks for that last post of yours! I was wondering how the "Does" worked and what the purpose was of the 1-50.

Previously, Jake let people know he was going to send out some contracts. So far, another Ematrixusa customer confirmed receipt of the contract via mail so I guess Jake did send those out afterall; how many, I don't know. <shrug> Since that time there's been no word from Jake as to whether his latest post on his homepage will affect those very contracts he already sent and/or change his intention in regards to those contracts. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[MatrixWatch]

Contracts? I guess that you are referring to a "promise to pay" those who have already cycled, but their money is frozen? If that is what you are referring to, then I suppose you are right about things coming to light soon.

It is very likely that ematrixUSA is completely finished. I don't see how it plans to honor those contracts.

[amagic2u]

first I would like to say the tone and distaine that has been flung around this board has been tasteless and watch dog you sound just like schelby Your approuch has has the a tone of a man with his own mission you are not the only one in this we all are mkow that I got that out of my way

[amagic2u]

I wiol have to finish this later as i have a doc appt gy

[concerned]

Originally posted by amagic2u
first I would like to say the tone and distaine that has been flung around this board has been tasteless and watch dog you sound just like schelby Your approuch has has the a tone of a man with his own mission you are not the only one in this we all are mkow that I got that out of my way

I have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about. Watchdog does NOT sound like Shelby. Do you see Watchdog making violent threats? Do you see him using foul language? The only thing that you did get right, what that watchdog DOES have a mission. That mission is to ensure that NOBODY else gets scammed out of their money. If that is so bad, then I guess I wish I could be just as bad. I hate it when others sit back and watch others get scammed. At least someone is here to stand up for what is right. Now, in the future, quit robbing a thread that is written with such a professional dialog between Watchdog and ANYONE ELSE seeking his guidance to say this nonsense. Next time, please start a new thread for something like this.

NOW, LET ME TRY TO GET THIS THREAD BACK ON TRACK!


Originally posted by Kay P
Dog,

Thanks for that last post of yours! I was wondering how the "Does" worked and what the purpose was of the 1-50.

Previously, Jake let people know he was going to send out some contracts. So far, another Ematrixusa customer confirmed receipt of the contract via mail so I guess Jake did send those out afterall; how many, I don't know. <shrug> Since that time there's been no word from Jake as to whether his latest post on his homepage will affect those very contracts he already sent and/or change his intention in regards to those contracts. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

If Jake did send out those contracts, then he may be in bigger trouble than I originally thought. If he entered into a seperate contract to ensure that those that cycled will get their money/prize, then he will probably have to honor that on top of the refunds. That is my opinion, but I can't see how it could be any different.

[Gasaraki]

Originally posted by concerned If Jake did send out those contracts, then he may be in bigger trouble than I originally thought. If he entered into a seperate contract to ensure that those that cycled will get their money/prize, then he will probably have to honor that on top of the refunds. That is my opinion, but I can't see how it could be any different.

Once he closed Ematrixusa , I don’t think he needs to honor those contracts anymore. Of course, if he keeps Ematrixusa as a ongoing business, then I can see he is in trouble.

[concerned]

Originally posted by Gasaraki
Once he closed Ematrixusa , I don’t think he needs to honor those contracts anymore. Of course, if he keeps Ematrixusa as a ongoing business, then I can see he is in trouble.

Nope, he entered into new contracts while still in business. No matter if he closes or not, those contracts NEED to be honored. If it was as you stated, you would see a lot more companies take in money, sign contracts, and then close up shop so that they don't have to fulfill obligations. According to the law, a contract is enforcable until it is completed.

[Gasaraki]

No, if a company is bankrupted or dissolved, you salvage what you can get back from company’s asset. There are laws and procedures for that.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my previous post. What we have here is not the same. All Jake needs to do is to refund those people’s money. Then he doesn’t need to honor those contracts, because no one lost anything, unless they can prove it.

[concerned]

Originally posted by Gasaraki
No, if a company is bankrupted or dissolved, you salvage what you can get back from company’s asset. There are laws and procedures for that.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear in my previous post. What we have here is not the same. All Jake needs to do is to refund those people’s money. Then he doesn’t need to honor those contracts, because no one lost anything, unless they can prove it.

You are correct about the bankruptcy thing. On the other hand, the people that he sent those contracts to can file a lawsuit asking for the contract to be enforced before Jake files for Bankruptcy. In that case, it is still enforcable, but they have to make sure to file the case before any bankruptcy proceedings. Also, the contract itself, depending how it is worded could prove everything. I'm not sure, but I bet he sent a contract stating that he will send Customer's Name a prize valued at X dollars after a certain time. If that is the case, that is all they would need.

[Kay P]

Concerned:

I have to agree with you on multiple issues here. I do respect AMagic and often trust the information she shares, but I was taken aback by the post regarding Watchdog's tone. I couldn't find any of his posts in this thread which might be construed as questionable behavior and nothing remotely close to comparison with Shelby. Admittedly, there are other posts by Dog that might be questionable, but when brought to his attention, I thought that he had made an effort to correct himself or revise. Hmmm.

As far as the contracts at Ematrixusa, I think you are right about him being bound. I can't be certain, but I lean toward that guess. From what I am told, the contracts are simply an agreement form that the "winner" completes. It's supposedly a simple form that says you cycled, that they owe you money, how much you are entitled to, how you want the payout to be made, and that you agree to pay taxes on your winnings. Understand that this particular information is secondhand to me. I haven't received my contract yet, even though I've been told it was coming since MAY!!

Here's what I do know... On July 27th he posted at the site that contracts would go out in 2 weeks. APPARENTLY, Payrequest did not get funds to him on the timeline Jake expected so things got delayed. On August 27th, he notified some again to expect contracts out WITHIN 2 weeks TOPS. Sure enough, some people have received them already. Not only were the contracts sent out prior to Jake's recent presence on these boards, but they were also received by some prior to his recent posts and requests for advice (which ultimately led to people advising him to shut the site down). I'm not sure how the timing of sending and receipt of the contracts will play out and affect the lawsuit or his proposed pursuit of a refund process.

How this all unfolds will certainly be interesting. As of today, since more than one person has confirmed to me that they received contracts, I'm going to check my own PO Box to see if mine has arrived too.

And just for the record, I DID ask Jake to just give me a refund last month but that didn't work out and I already exceeded my time limit to chargeback on my card. CSI has been of no assistance since May either.

[Gasaraki]

Originally posted by concerned
You are correct about the bankruptcy thing. On the other hand, the people that he sent those contracts to can file a lawsuit asking for the contract to be enforced before Jake files for Bankruptcy. In that case, it is still enforcable, but they have to make sure to file the case before any bankruptcy proceedings.

It will be interesting to see how the contract is worded. If the contract has wording that this contract is based on the initial purchase and etc., then I think Jake can be off the hook by giving people's money back.

However, if the contract simply states: "Congratulations! Kay P, you have won the plasma tv from ematrixusa.....we will send you the tv in two weeks" then it will be a big problem. Yes, you are right, people can take him to court.

Anyway, it's in Jake's best interest for him to contact these people asap to work something out so he doesn't need to file for bankruptcy to protect himself.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by amagic2u
first I would like to say the tone and distaine that has been flung around this board has been tasteless and watch dog you sound just like schelby Your approuch has has the a tone of a man with his own mission you are not the only one in this we all are mkow that I got that out of my way

What throws me for a loop is the you, Amagic, were supportive of our mission. You were helping to get the word out and help people with their questions. You were here at Matrix Watch long before the lawsuit and you obviously wanted to see fairness carried out. Now, you turn on me? Worst yet, you compare me to Shelby and accuse me of furthering a mission that you agreed with at one time.

Everything changed when you started talking with Jake. Did you work something out with him that has now been thwarted by the lawsuit? If so, then please know that this is not my lawsuit. I am answering questions in this thread for EmatrixUSA customers because Jake won't yet. I just don't get it.

[mikv]

KAY P wrote....
"From what I am told, the contracts are simply an agreement form that the "winner" completes. It's supposedly a simple form that says you cycled, that they owe you money, how much you are entitled to, how you want the payout to be made, and that you agree to pay taxes on your winnings. Understand that this particular information is secondhand to me. I haven't received my contract yet, even though I've been told it was coming since MAY!!"


If what is typed here is true, and the contracts do state as it is said above, then regardless on whether the site is up and running or not those contracts are VALID. From what I understand, there must be a deadline date that the contract expires or a clause that states something to the effect of if the site goes down or if the business goes under, the contract is void. Without a statement or an agreement on a specific time, the contract remains valid until the time comes when it is honored. They are agreeing with that contract that they do "owe" either money or the "free gift" and they are entering themselves into a promissary note with that contract. The only way they can not be held liable is if they are run under a registered business running under a DBA. Without that they are running the business under their own name and the customers can pursue their "cycled" product from the onwers own pocket book.

[Baker]

Contracts entered under illegal means do not have to be honored. If it is determined his site was an illegal pyramid scheme he has to make good on customer loses but has no responsibility to honor contracts that where based on an illegal entity.

[amagic2u]

I am going to ask you all for some slack and a hint of kindness as I am haveing a very hard time with my physical self and am in pain that makes child birthday feel like a stub toe thank you
Ailce so[ its makes it very hard to type ]




first off let ME say the way my statement came out was not what I MENT I will try not to steel to much time on this thread As I read the banter of last month its seems to me that you say things that you do not know the whole story why not wait untill the hand has been played before the snide and ulgy tone of your reply is posted. do you get what I mean now I do understand that it seems that I am on jakes side and in a way I am but that is not a bad thing people. I have been working with jake to try and do this thing the right way. hes a good kid and he does milk cows for a living. and he will pay all back but he does have to find the best way to do this yes he is selling his motor cross bike

[amagic2u]

and cashing in what evere he can get his hands on. How do I know this I have kinfolk in the area some of them are even going to school with him so I get the buzz first I will have to type later i will bw back you all be safe Alice

[Kay P]

Dog,

I think she might be referring to the original response you posted the Jake... the one that has since been revised. Not sure though.

[EmatrixUSA]

Dog, (That's what everyone's calling you now)

First off all you claim that this isn't your lawsuit. I know it isn't, its Natee's lawsuit. If it isn't your lawsuit, then how can you post in huge letters across the top of your website that a lawsuit is being filed against me. I know as a fact you can't legally do that. Your nots a news paper, this is a privately owned site. When people own a site privately they have to ask before they post something like this. You can just use the excuse they you are relying the message. I want it tooken down immediately.

Second off all, you are all talking about this big "contract" that is being sent out. It doesn't ask for anything more than what the people want, the actual gift or a money order. This so called "contract" all asks if you would like to reinvest. It also has you sign agreeing to what you have checked so there can be no arguments afterwards. I just wanted to clear that up with people because I have no yet sent out a contract stating that they would recieve their money 100%.

Third of all, I am not going to post anything about what my lawyer advises me to do. I am going to keep this compltely confidential also. All I will tell you is that he is from CA and he no more than 3.5 hours from Mr. Wilens.

Thanks you for all your time.

[Baker]

actually jake all lawsuits that are filed are public record. Anyone has access to these files and can post the information anywhere they want as long as it is truthful. If there has been a lawsuit filed the header on the site is perfectly le*** and does not need to be removed at your request. Also its taken not tooken.

[MatrixWatch]

Originally posted by EmatrixUSA
First off all you claim that this isn't your lawsuit. I know it isn't, its Natee's lawsuit. If it isn't your lawsuit, then how can you post in huge letters across the top of your website that a lawsuit is being filed against me. I know as a fact you can't legally do that.

You don't know it for a fact, Jake. Look, I don't want to argue with you. It was a little disappointing that your customers did not hear it from you first, but it seems you have already cleared things up on your website. Thank you for making that step.

Baker is correct. As long as I stick to the facts of the case, I can post that header on the main page. I also have the lawsuit available as a downloadable .pdf file for those who want to read into the facts of the case.

I believe that the lawsuit filed against you, as well as the Variety Matrix lawsuit filed by another person, is a significant point that the matrix owners need pay heed to. These new lawsuits, along with the various reports filed with government authorities, show that the customers are beginning to feel empowered to take action. Attacking "Watch Dog" is no longer an effective escape, since certain customers are obviously paying heed to what is said here. If I were a matrix owner, and I saw what was happening here at Matrix Watch, I would begin negotiating refunds to my customers.

Jake, thank you for taking the time to post here. I appreciate it. You do not need to explain what your lawyer has told you, however it may be right to explain to your customers what they should do next. They are pretty curious.

If I could give you any advice.... Talk to your customers. If you dodge their questions, then they will get very upset. Thanks.

[MatrixWatch]

Here is another example of posting information publicly that this already mentioned in the lawsuit.

http://www.lawyers.com/lakeshorelaw/recentcases.jsp

[EmatrixUSA]

He doesn't have to taunt it like he does. Also, I am really really sorry, I really didn't have the time to go through and proofread all that I had "TAKEN" the time to write. I am a busy boy, I have homework that is due tomorrow. Don't know if it will matter in the future that I have it done, but I at least like to keep myself happy by trying.

[squid]

I have spent last month on vacation without internet access and now am on business travel so I have missed posts regarding EmatrixUSA. Is Kagi going to be included? I never received a response from Kee Nethery. I would not mind paying the "chargeback" fee imposed by Kagi.